Guild Wars 2

Apparently one of my previous posts was not considered constructive by the moderators, so I’ll re-iterate with some… “improvements” and no criticism whatsoever about the way this new system has been handled to prevent someone from getting upset.

The trait system should have been reworked to include on-demand paid resets which scale by level up to the original 10 silver fee from a low base copper value as well as the implementation of a rather expensive (such as about 20 gold) unlock to remove the associated price to reset for those who are a tad reset-happy (to act as a proper sink) and remove level-gating from trait tiers while not blocking any of the original traits behind content, with trait point acquisition beginning at 15 every five levels through 80 to keep with the 14-point system if need be. New GM traits implemented later could be given the buy price/unlock system treatment if released with new permanent content to have players be more interested in exploring the new regions and promote new areas without needing huge boss encounters to divert player attention, etc. It then becomes a constant, clean rate, and by removing the gating, players can better-experiment with builds at the equivalent acquisition rate that used to exist in-game with a further-improved experience by allowing for players to utilize more powerful traits earlier. This also nicely complements the NPE since trait unlocking will begin effectively as soon as the NPE experience rate increase ends, making players feel as though they have truly begun the game and left the introductory period to demonstrate that traits are impactful. This also helps increase build-leveling diversity within the pre-80 game by allowing for builds which are dependent on certain traits to be functional and effective before endgame, letting players further enjoy their leveling experience by playing the way they want, and promoting an environment which lets them experiment at will for a low cost to find the style of play and build they like best before committing to gear upon reaching 80. This reduces endgame confusion/apprehension and overall reduces confusion about the trait system across all levels to all players.

Examples of the new system:

Player A at level 40 may use a 6/0/0/0/0 build for optimized damage throughputs per attack or through effects gained on his primary style of play for necessary effectiveness, while player B may use a 2/2/0/0/2 build to be more adaptable while not being dependent on a GM trait for build success. Player A is now able to use a particular weapon/utility combination which is considered by players examining the current implementation as “ineffective” or “not as effective” as perhaps the approach taken by player B.

And player C, a new player, can be told in a pop-up on reaching level 15 that traits are gained every five levels. He now is less confused on when he will receive new traits and when he can use them in what.

So, the request for more suggestions….. is that because there’s nothing in this thread that seems feasible? Because… there just aren’t a ton of methods that haven’t been mentioned. Maybe it’s time for a little feedback from you guys. Blink once for “we’re working on other game modes and currently have no plans whatsoever to do anything about the trait system,” blink twice for “We have a super exciting change incoming that we think you’re going to love!” and that change is that the skillpoint requirement for vendor unlocks just doubled and it now costs an additional fee in karma, as well, or never blink again for, “Based on your suggestions, we’ve come up with (insert actual good ideas), but we’d like your feedback on the potential implementation.”

Some suggestions:
Trait unlocks now have a chance of coming out of a black lion chest- assuming you have any traits locked, of course. Selection is randomly chosen from your locked traits.

Crafting The Dreamer now unlocks all the traits.

Hold a raffle for traits, similar to the halloween skins raffle that’s currently taking place.

90% world map completion now unlocks an entire line of traits.

Each time you interact with a cow, there is a slight chance that you will get a trait randomly unlocked.

I’m just trying to come up with ideas not already listed in the thread.

Be enough for me if they’d just add new content gasp for unlocks, so they’re all straightforward and solo-able. I don’t really mind the ones where you spend 10 minutes jumping and killing a veteran, I mind the ones where you spend hours zone completing or hoping enough folks gather for a chain of group event.

Bonus points: make alternate unlocks for WvW, etc.

Just like Greatest Fear, it doesn’t bother me that they changed it. It bothers me how lazy the change is.

Another patch and still no fix

There is no reason for them to not come out and list some of the suggestions they liked and will be working on. Unless they are not working on it at all. Like many others I get the feeling that the majority of the 300+ working at arenanet are working on a completely different game. It feels like less than 50 are actually on the GW2 team and the majority of those are probably in marketing, just browsing forums trying to hype the game where ever they can.

The few that are actually working on GW2 game development probably only have enough time to work on the things like the LS and these crappy features that keep getting pushed. They obviously don’t have the man power to even work on things they break with these updates as things have been sitting broken for months and years. It feels like the only time the devs are allowed work on fixing things is when it reaches third party sites or in their own free time.

Sooo… what’s with the suggestion of fixing the former town clothes? There are still tonics in my bank which are waiting to be transformed back into skins.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Guhracie.3419:

So, the request for more suggestions….. is that because there’s nothing in this thread that seems feasible?

Oh actually, the request was for any different suggestions that forum members may want to offer. That’s not to say that the previous suggestions are wrong, or bad, or unworkable. Many of the suggestions were extremely valuable, in fact, and they’re retained through the pages of this thread.

Basically, if a suggestion has been made, it’s on record and we wouldn’t want players to believe they need to restate a previously-offered suggestion. If it’s in this thread—previously or in the future—that’s great. Meaning if there’s a new thought, suggestion, or opinion to offer, that’s very welcome.

Gaile, we know it’s on record (if nothing else, it’s recorded here), but we haven’t had any assurance that this is actually going to be properly fixed, or any hint at a time frame. So far the only update hinted that they might change the locations of some unlocks, but not the system itself. That was two months ago.

We’re repeating ourselves because we’re afraid that if we let this go then the trait system is going to be left in its horrible current state, save for maybe, eventually, moving a few of the locations. Without a confirmation either way, we’re stuck making noise and hoping we won’t be ignored.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Oh actually, the request was for any different suggestions that forum members may want to offer.

Different suggestions? Do you mean a different trait system or how to improve the broken one?

Please please someone explain what was wrong with the old system that worked SO well!

I would love to hear from the “Genius” that decided to take a fun part of this game, & turn it into something that’s not fun.

Galphar.3901:

Another patch and still no fix

No surprise here.

I am willing to bet that we will get, at the most, some changed unlock tasks but the vast majority will remain the same.

I was also wondering if Gaile (or someone else appointed to the nasty task of giving us bad news) would come in today since it was update time and we, yet again, got nothing.

She did.

Gaile, if you read this, the only thing that will put a dent in the hostility about this issue is if something was actually done to help. It is way past its sell by date for promises.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Oh actually, the request was for any different suggestions that forum members may want to offer…

Here’s a wild suggestion Gaile, and while it isn’t about the traits directly, I do think it helps us understand more as players.
I’d love for you to get a roundup of ideas and thoughts from the ANet team on why they made the choices they made, and what their intentions were.

Now, I think it’s only reasonable to ask, because I’m all too aware of the policy you have when it comes to discussing things prior to their release. However, this has been out there for some time, and I’m explicitly asking for the devs opinions after the release. Not on what they could do better, or what they missed. Simply, how they got to their final release and why they made some choices.

I always feel like it’s only half of the puzzle when you simply just ask for suggestions, and yes Gaile, it does really feel like we start talking at someone (unfortunately, it seems you’re in the crosshairs!) instead of talking with them.
It would be good to get that kind of understanding of their mind-set, so we can better evaluate our ideas to you too….at the very least anyway.

I hope this doesn’t fall within the umbrella of the company’s strange policy, because if it does, then there’s very little hope of discussion and improvement.

Thanks.

While I would like to give my 2 cents about the trait unlocks that I consider the most problematic, or the ones that I think are actually fun, the problem is, they are a moving target.
With the changes on the trait requirements, the 2 or 3 places on the internet you could use to research trait unlocks are currently not updated, including the Wiki and Dulfy.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Trait_guide
I believe that there are no map complete trait unlocks anymore, right?
So, it would be very useful to have an up-to-date table with trait unlocks so we could give feedback about them in a more assertive way. Maybe a table on the Wiki, listing the map in which the trait is, the level requirement and if the trait is related to an event, guild event, chest or dungeon.
I think only ArenaNet would be able to make such a list in a easy way, because most people unlock traits as needed, so is not common for a level 80 player to be still able to see the trait unlock requirements (since they dissapear on unlock).
That would make the discussion/feedback on specific unlocks much easier, because such feedback could be tabulated on a Google Sheet or equivalent, in the form or “scores” for each trait unlock that the interested players could give their opinions about.
Would that be viable?

nethykins.7986:

Gaile Gray.6029:

Oh actually, the request was for any different suggestions that forum members may want to offer…

Here’s a wild suggestion Gaile, and while it isn’t about the traits directly, I do think it helps us understand more as players.
I’d love for you to get a roundup of ideas and thoughts from the ANet team on why they made the choices they made, and what their intentions were.

Now, I think it’s only reasonable to ask, because I’m all too aware of the policy you have when it comes to discussing things prior to their release. However, this has been out there for some time, and I’m explicitly asking for the devs opinions after the release. Not on what they could do better, or what they missed. Simply, how they got to their final release and why they made some choices.

I always feel like it’s only half of the puzzle when you simply just ask for suggestions, and yes Gaile, it does really feel like we start talking at someone (unfortunately, it seems you’re in the crosshairs!) instead of talking with them.
It would be good to get that kind of understanding of their mind-set, so we can better evaluate our ideas to you too….at the very least anyway.

I hope this doesn’t fall within the umbrella of the company’s strange policy, because if it does, then there’s very little hope of discussion and improvement.

Thanks.

This would actually be extremely helpful in allowing us to provide further suggestions.

Currently the only hint of a brief we have is “encourage build experimentation” and “don’t overwhelm new players”. However, as the trait update provided the antithesis of the former, and account unlocks would fix this while not affecting the latter, it doesn’t seem that this is what we’re actually working with.

If we don’t know what the update was supposed to achieve, nor what suggested changes are supposed to do, then we can’t really make any informed suggestions. If the given information is actually complete, then why on Earth do we still not have account unlocks after seven months?

DDCarvalho.2071:

While I would like to give my 2 cents about the trait unlocks that I consider the most problematic, or the ones that I think are actually fun, the problem is, they are a moving target.
With the changes on the trait requirements, the 2 or 3 places on the internet you could use to research trait unlocks are currently not updated, including the Wiki and Dulfy.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Trait_guide
I believe that there are no map complete trait unlocks anymore, right?
So, it would be very useful to have an up-to-date table with trait unlocks so we could give feedback about them in a more assertive way. Maybe a table on the Wiki, listing the map in which the trait is, the level requirement and if the trait is related to an event, guild event, chest or dungeon.
I think only ArenaNet would be able to make such a list in a easy way, because most people unlock traits as needed, so is not common for a level 80 player to be still able to see the trait unlock requirements (since they dissapear on unlock).
That would make the discussion/feedback on specific unlocks much easier, because such feedback could be tabulated on a Google Sheet or equivalent, in the form or “scores” for each trait unlock that the interested players could give their opinions about.
Would that be viable?

When do you think the map complete requirements were removed? Because they were all there, last time I looked.

nethykins.7986:

I’d love for you to get a roundup of ideas and thoughts from the ANet team on why they made the choices they made, and what their intentions were.

Totally.

Over on Greatest Fear, folks ask if the missing missions are accidental or intentional — no answer. But it’s hard to provide meaningful feedback when you can’t even be told the goal.

Same issue here. They ask for suggestions, but we don’t know what we’re trying to accomplish…

runeblade.7514:

I find myself experimenting more with trait unlocks than without it.

If you want to experiment with all the traits, you can go to PvP. They have majority of everything unlocked. You don’t need to fight players, there is a pit where you can fight NPC.

Experimenting in PVP was not introduced with the trait change and is actually worse now than it was when traits were simply level unlocked, since for new players who can’t afford the unlocks will create builds that will either be impossible or discouragingly out of reach.

Since you have the cash on hand to buy the traits for your build it impacts you less. Try rolling a new character, write down how much gold you start with, and only use the gold you earn to unlock. Personally I can’t recommend the game to friends (even at 50% off) and knowingly sign them up for that process. With the old system I could recommend the game to them and tell them that however they choose to play, the only barrier to fine tuning their character was level. They could level entirely in WvW, and come out at 80 with very much the same character as if they leveled entirely doing PVE and dungeons.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Basically, if a suggestion has been made, it’s on record and we wouldn’t want players to believe they need to restate a previously-offered suggestion. If it’s in this thread—previously or in the future—that’s great. Meaning if there’s a new thought, suggestion, or opinion to offer, that’s very welcome.

If you don’t want repeat suggestions, please provide a list of what you and the devs understand to be the current suggestions. That way we can discuss them and know that there aren’t any that were missed in 60 pages of thread.

Here’s one: if trait unlocks need to be behind some sort of unlock, instead of overloading skill points, implement trait points. That way the player would still have to do the unlocks, however flawed, but could still have some build leeway.

Guhracie.3419:

DDCarvalho.2071:

While I would like to give my 2 cents about the trait unlocks that I consider the most problematic, or the ones that I think are actually fun, the problem is, they are a moving target.
With the changes on the trait requirements, the 2 or 3 places on the internet you could use to research trait unlocks are currently not updated, including the Wiki and Dulfy.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Trait_guide
I believe that there are no map complete trait unlocks anymore, right?
So, it would be very useful to have an up-to-date table with trait unlocks so we could give feedback about them in a more assertive way. Maybe a table on the Wiki, listing the map in which the trait is, the level requirement and if the trait is related to an event, guild event, chest or dungeon.
I think only ArenaNet would be able to make such a list in a easy way, because most people unlock traits as needed, so is not common for a level 80 player to be still able to see the trait unlock requirements (since they dissapear on unlock).
That would make the discussion/feedback on specific unlocks much easier, because such feedback could be tabulated on a Google Sheet or equivalent, in the form or “scores” for each trait unlock that the interested players could give their opinions about.
Would that be viable?

When do you think the map complete requirements were removed? Because they were all there, last time I looked.

I can confirm, I just checked and the map completion has not been removed. Lornar’s Pass, Harathi Hinterlands, Fields of Ruin, Gendarran Fields, Blazeridge Steppes and others are all still part of the list.

Only about 3 map completes from the original change were altered to be “fight random chain event boss here” to get those traits.

As others have stated, can we get some feedback as to what suggestions are in the “nope” pile and ones that are in the “we can consider this” pile, so we can at least make informed decisions about what we discuss here and maybe find out just what direction the devs/Anet are taking on this one.

That really isn’t too much to ask.

If the answer to this is still just silence on the part of Anet, then I think it is safe to conclude that this whole thread and the line about the devs looking into any of this is nothing more than a farce to keep people on the hook while the LS team tries to crank out enough things to hopefully hold onto players that already have a foot out the door.

PookieDaWombat.6209:

Only about 3 map completes from the original change were altered to be “fight random chain event boss here” to get those traits.

Wait isn’t that pretty much just as bad cause now you have to wait for the random events to start and then go through the whole chain? At least map complete is something you can actually measure…

DDCarvalho.2071:

I believe that there are no map complete trait unlocks anymore, right?

There are, 6 I think. The wiki page looks pretty accurate and Dulfy’s page might not be up to date but you can see the changed events on your trait page and search Dulfy’s for it – she’s got all events on her site.
Just to help you out while you’re trait hunting, I get the point that it is confusing to have to unlock traits. Yeah, that was a pun.

tofumon.5924:

PookieDaWombat.6209:

Only about 3 map completes from the original change were altered to be “fight random chain event boss here” to get those traits.

Wait isn’t that pretty much just as bad cause now you have to wait for the random events to start and then go through the whole chain? At least map complete is something you can actually measure…

Yeah it is, map completion can’t be bugged and you won’t have to wait until something starts. Or encounter other problems like someone who had apperantly started the Fleshgrazer event chain without knowing it, which left me unable to start it. Guested to another server to do it and was surprised so many people were around to help me, but they only wanted the Box of captured light :| – shortly before I died some other people came though, so it wasn’t that bad.

I still don’t have the trait for defeating that flippin’ giant in herathi on my second guardian. Every time I’ve tried it, no one else has been on the map or was only there for the bigger champ event thing and then they left, leaving me to try and solo him on an under traited toon.

Yeah, not fun. its just annoying because i should be able to get my trait this way instead of buying it, but I’m most likely going to have to buy it since soloing him means him getting past one of my cool downs and then cheesing me to death again.

Jana.6831:

DDCarvalho.2071:

I believe that there are no map complete trait unlocks anymore, right?

There are, 6 I think. The wiki page looks pretty accurate and Dulfy’s page might not be up to date but you can see the changed events on your trait page and search Dulfy’s for it – she’s got all events on her site.
Just to help you out while you’re trait hunting, I get the point that it is confusing to have to unlock traits. Yeah, that was a pun.

DD’s larger point was that if you don’t have any characters under the new trait system, or if you do but you’ve unlocked most/all of the traits, there’s no way in-game to see the current tasks in order to properly evaluate them. Or to compare against outside sources to make sure they’re correct.

The six maps to be completed (and I believe these are all for adept-level traits) are Lornar’s Pass, Dredgehaunt Hills, Blazeridge Steppes, Gendarran Fields, Fields of Ruin and Harathi Hinterlands.

Reason for edit: A wild kitten appeared!

Gaile Gray.6029:

Guhracie.3419:

So, the request for more suggestions….. is that because there’s nothing in this thread that seems feasible?

Oh actually, the request was for any different suggestions that forum members may want to offer. That’s not to say that the previous suggestions are wrong, or bad, or unworkable. Many of the suggestions were extremely valuable, in fact, and they’re retained through the pages of this thread.

Basically, if a suggestion has been made, it’s on record and we wouldn’t want players to believe they need to restate a previously-offered suggestion. If it’s in this thread—previously or in the future—that’s great. Meaning if there’s a new thought, suggestion, or opinion to offer, that’s very welcome.

If suggestions were never repeated, then there would be no way of discerning the magnitude and merit of a given suggestion aside from solely the number of replies such a suggestion garnered in a positive way.

This would therefore imply every user on the forums would need to read every post in the history of the game to be aware of previous suggestions while reading additional, current discussion about that topic.

I said this in my single-highest rated post I’ve ever made:

DeceiverX.8361:

If there is overwhelming support for certain changes, why are these ignored when feedback was asked for to begin with? Why waste everyone’s time if the community’s opinions do not matter regardless of their magnitude and merit?

Anyone feel like possibly explaining this absurd behavior?

Aside from “it’s on record” there seems to be no way to prove that any of our suggestions will actually have a meaningful impact on the game, and therefore one could argue that they are subsequently ignored. Yes, maybe there an open ear, but that does not mean it is truly listening and retaining the sounds is receives. In fact, the attitude raised of “We’re looking for other suggestions” further emphasizes this concern.

It’s why players are disgusted. Apparently player feedback is valuable, but is not valuable enough to have the game catered to said players and instead needs to be created on the basis of the “vision” of the game designers.

Guhracie.3419:

Jana.6831:

DDCarvalho.2071:

I believe that there are no map complete trait unlocks anymore, right?

There are, 6 I think. The wiki page looks pretty accurate and Dulfy’s page might not be up to date but you can see the changed events on your trait page and search Dulfy’s for it – she’s got all events on her site.
Just to help you out while you’re trait hunting, I get the point that it is confusing to have to unlock traits. Yeah, that was a pun.

DD’s larger point was that if you don’t have any characters under the new trait system, or if you do but you’ve unlocked most/all of the traits, there’s no way in-game to see the current tasks in order to properly kitten them. Or to compare against outside sources to make sure they’re correct.

The six maps to be completed (and I believe these are all for adept-level traits) are Lornar’s Pass, Dredgehaunt Hills, Blazeridge Steppes, Gendarran Fields, Fields of Ruin and Harathi Hinterlands.

No, sorry I read it otherwise: a question whether or not map completion is still required, a claim that both websites aren’t updated and a suggestion how to fix this in the future. I replied to the question and the claim. I have no opinon on the suggestion and guess I don’t have to have one =)

Edit: If you’re puzzled because I suggested searching Dulfy’s for the missing events: We’re with this system for now half a year, it will likely take a while until something is changed.

Jana.6831:

Guhracie.3419:

Jana.6831:

DDCarvalho.2071:

I believe that there are no map complete trait unlocks anymore, right?

There are, 6 I think. The wiki page looks pretty accurate and Dulfy’s page might not be up to date but you can see the changed events on your trait page and search Dulfy’s for it – she’s got all events on her site.
Just to help you out while you’re trait hunting, I get the point that it is confusing to have to unlock traits. Yeah, that was a pun.

DD’s larger point was that if you don’t have any characters under the new trait system, or if you do but you’ve unlocked most/all of the traits, there’s no way in-game to see the current tasks in order to properly kitten them. Or to compare against outside sources to make sure they’re correct.

The six maps to be completed (and I believe these are all for adept-level traits) are Lornar’s Pass, Dredgehaunt Hills, Blazeridge Steppes, Gendarran Fields, Fields of Ruin and Harathi Hinterlands.

No, sorry I read it otherwise: a question whether or not map completion is still required, a claim that both websites aren’t updated and a suggestion how to fix this in the future. I replied to the question and the claim. I have no opinon on the suggestion and guess I don’t have to have one =)

It helps to take in the whole post. It was a (mistaken) assertion that since DD believed map completion had been removed from the trait quests, that the wiki and dulfy were out of date. And, seeing as how DD does not have any trait-locked characters, there’s no way to see the requirements personally.

DDCarvalho.2071:

While I would like to give my 2 cents about the trait unlocks that I consider the most problematic, or the ones that I think are actually fun, the problem is, they are a moving target.
With the changes on the trait requirements, the 2 or 3 places on the internet you could use to research trait unlocks are currently not updated, including the Wiki and Dulfy.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Trait_guide
I believe that there are no map complete trait unlocks anymore, right?
So, it would be very useful to have an up-to-date table with trait unlocks so we could give feedback about them in a more assertive way. Maybe a table on the Wiki, listing the map in which the trait is, the level requirement and if the trait is related to an event, guild event, chest or dungeon.
I think only ArenaNet would be able to make such a list in a easy way, because most people unlock traits as needed, so is not common for a level 80 player to be still able to see the trait unlock requirements (since they dissapear on unlock).
That would make the discussion/feedback on specific unlocks much easier, because such feedback could be tabulated on a Google Sheet or equivalent, in the form or “scores” for each trait unlock that the interested players could give their opinions about.
Would that be viable?

Please note:

“I would like to give my two cents… [but] the places on the internet are not updated.”
“I believe that there are no more map complete trait unlocks, right?”
“I think only ArenaNet would be able to make such a list in an easy way, because most people unlock traits as needed… but they [the requirements] disappear on unlock.”

You responded to one point and offered a solution to a problem that isn’t outlined in the post. Your point is still valid, it’s just that it didn’t take the larger point into account.

@ Guhracie.3419

Umm… what? So you say I have no right to answer qustions and don’t have to give advise if someone didn’t specifically ask for it? Are you serious?

Ps: The trait requirements have changed since April and Dulfy hasn’t updated since then, maybe you’ll see the bigger picture now.

Wow, 60 pages of pretty much players complaining about the new trait system.

It’s called a hint Anet, take one.

Deamhan.9538:

Wow, 60 pages of pretty much players complaining about the new trait system.

It’s called a hint Anet, take one.

They have. Now I suspect they’re trying not to make a move on this until they can feel things out better than they did the first time. Rather than, you know, rush into a change and botch it up worse.

And before someone suggests that’s not possible, please recall Murphy has laws about this sort of thing, and as bad as things are, they can always be worse.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Deamhan.9538:

Wow, 60 pages of pretty much players complaining about the new trait system.

It’s called a hint Anet, take one.

They have. Now I suspect they’re trying not to make a move on this until they can feel things out better than they did the first time. Rather than, you know, rush into a change and botch it up worse.

And before someone suggests that’s not possible, please recall Murphy has laws about this sort of thing, and as bad as things are, they can always be worse.

Alternatively, they might have purposely designed this new trait system to be a big time/gold/skill point sink to make the game last longer and/or encourage lazy players to buy gold.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Now I suspect they’re trying not to make a move on this until they can feel things out better than they did the first time.

I wonder. Traits and Greatest Fear feel very similar to me: Big restructure, sloppy on the details. Not like they didn’t understand — like they were short handed, in a rush, and figured they can fine tune later.

Both of these need new content to work. My guess is there just wasn’t time for new content.

tofumon.5924:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Deamhan.9538:

Wow, 60 pages of pretty much players complaining about the new trait system.

It’s called a hint Anet, take one.

They have. Now I suspect they’re trying not to make a move on this until they can feel things out better than they did the first time. Rather than, you know, rush into a change and botch it up worse.

And before someone suggests that’s not possible, please recall Murphy has laws about this sort of thing, and as bad as things are, they can always be worse.

Alternatively, they might have purposely designed this new trait system to be a big time/gold/skill point sink to make the game last longer and/or encourage lazy players to buy gold.

All the gold in the game can’t buy skill points.

BilboBaggins.5620:

tofumon.5924:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Deamhan.9538:

Wow, 60 pages of pretty much players complaining about the new trait system.

It’s called a hint Anet, take one.

They have. Now I suspect they’re trying not to make a move on this until they can feel things out better than they did the first time. Rather than, you know, rush into a change and botch it up worse.

And before someone suggests that’s not possible, please recall Murphy has laws about this sort of thing, and as bad as things are, they can always be worse.

Alternatively, they might have purposely designed this new trait system to be a big time/gold/skill point sink to make the game last longer and/or encourage lazy players to buy gold.

All the gold in the game can’t buy skill points.

Convert to gems, buy black lion keys and level up with the tomes.
I don’t think it was added for the reasons you quoted though. People were wanting something similar to gw1 and this was their initial attempt.

Fernling.1729:

BilboBaggins.5620:

tofumon.5924:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Deamhan.9538:

Wow, 60 pages of pretty much players complaining about the new trait system.

It’s called a hint Anet, take one.

They have. Now I suspect they’re trying not to make a move on this until they can feel things out better than they did the first time. Rather than, you know, rush into a change and botch it up worse.

And before someone suggests that’s not possible, please recall Murphy has laws about this sort of thing, and as bad as things are, they can always be worse.

Alternatively, they might have purposely designed this new trait system to be a big time/gold/skill point sink to make the game last longer and/or encourage lazy players to buy gold.

All the gold in the game can’t buy skill points.

Convert to gems, buy black lion keys and level up with the tomes.
I don’t think it was added for the reasons you quoted though. People were wanting something similar to gw1 and this was their initial attempt.

Doesn’t make a difference if you level with tomes (which only work on characters less than lvl 80) or by playing. A skill point is a skill point and when you are still leveling, the skill point’s primary use is still active. Using them to actually unlock your skills. Thus the only players who’ll have the spare skill points are level 80s. Then, there is the fact that there is no sense to how you unlock them. You have first tier traits locked behind lvl 70+ content. Also, I’m leveling a new character by map completion up to lvl 65, and now doing the personal story (up to lvl 70 and should be 80 by the time I need to be to continue the story). I have very few traits unlocked.

I remember them stating that this change was to encourage new players to experiment with traits they otherwise wouldn’t in the old system. That’s the biggest flaw in thinking right there. They think the problem is that we, the players, just haven’t noticed them or something. When the truth is, we measure their value and determined them to be not worth using. All people will do is go for the traits they want to use first and then unlock the rest as simply something to do.

Also, with the way they are locked and how unlocking them is not smooth and doesn’t happen naturally through game play (you will have to actively seek them out rather than stumble across them), people won’t bother until they hit lvl 80. This is the exact opposite of what they state about giving new players a better opportunity to explore different builds. If they want to go back to the drawing boards, that good but in the mean time revert the kitten change. Honestly this was one of those “it’s not broke so don’t fix it” kind of things. If all they wanted to do was encourage build exploration, all that they needed to do was put in the free refund system that currently exist and leave the rest as it was.

Deamhan.9538:

Fernling.1729:

BilboBaggins.5620:

tofumon.5924:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Deamhan.9538:

Wow, 60 pages of pretty much players complaining about the new trait system.

It’s called a hint Anet, take one.

They have. Now I suspect they’re trying not to make a move on this until they can feel things out better than they did the first time. Rather than, you know, rush into a change and botch it up worse.

And before someone suggests that’s not possible, please recall Murphy has laws about this sort of thing, and as bad as things are, they can always be worse.

Alternatively, they might have purposely designed this new trait system to be a big time/gold/skill point sink to make the game last longer and/or encourage lazy players to buy gold.

All the gold in the game can’t buy skill points.

Convert to gems, buy black lion keys and level up with the tomes.
I don’t think it was added for the reasons you quoted though. People were wanting something similar to gw1 and this was their initial attempt.

Doesn’t make a difference if you level with tomes (which only work on characters less than lvl 80) or by playing. A skill point is a skill point and when you are still leveling, the skill point’s primary use is still active. Using them to actually unlock your skills. Thus the only players who’ll have the spare skill points are level 80s. Then, there is the fact that there is no sense to how you unlock them. You have first tier traits locked behind lvl 70+ content. Also, I’m leveling a new character by map completion up to lvl 65, and now doing the personal story (up to lvl 70 and should be 80 by the time I need to be to continue the story). I have very few traits unlocked.

I remember them stating that this change was to encourage new players to experiment with traits they otherwise wouldn’t in the old system. That’s the biggest flaw in thinking right there. They think the problem is that we, the players, just haven’t noticed them or something. When the truth is, we measure their value and determined them to be not worth using. All people will do is go for the traits they want to use first and then unlock the rest as simply something to do.

Also, with the way they are locked and how unlocking them is not smooth and doesn’t happen naturally through game play (you will have to actively seek them out rather than stumble across them), people won’t bother until they hit lvl 80. This is the exact opposite of what they state about giving new players a better opportunity to explore different builds. If they want to go back to the drawing boards, that good but in the mean time revert the kitten change. Honestly this was one of those “it’s not broke so don’t fix it” kind of things. If all they wanted to do was encourage build exploration, all that they needed to do was put in the free refund system that currently exist and leave the rest as it was.

I have hundreds of skill point scrolls. They used to be a very common drop.

I don’t play too much anymore. I had a dozen or so drop during the Halloween events. Are they still common in BL chests and boss bags?

Once my NPE ele hit 80 and had paid for all her skills, spare skill points started adding up. Before that, however, not so much. When she hit 80 she had 23 skill points and had unlocked 11 traits more or less by accident. So, during the leveling process should one spend skill points on skills – or on traits? Hmm. Not a lot of room for build experimentation there. Which renders that particular ‘reason’ null and void, and reveals it as the nonsense it is.

This was a bad thing to do to the game, it hurts the game and the game’s players, and the ‘reasons’ they’ve given for doing it have served only to add insult to that injury.

I’d love to see some actual stats on how many new players have stayed/left the game because of the Trait changes. And while you’re at it A-Net let us know how character slot purchases are doing, my guess would be that they’re way down.

Made an engi, leveled him to 80 using all my PvP scrolls and 50 skillpoints things. Unlocked all the skills I needed and now I only have a few minor traits. How long must I play with this traitless character until I have all the traits and can start theory-crafting builds?

The gold cost is a bit high, but if needed I can live with it, the skill cost is tremendous high though (for getting all traits). Lowering that (or removing it) would already help big time with the trait ‘handicap’.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Deamhan.9538:

Wow, 60 pages of pretty much players complaining about the new trait system.

It’s called a hint Anet, take one.

They have. Now I suspect they’re trying not to make a move on this until they can feel things out better than they did the first time. Rather than, you know, rush into a change and botch it up worse.

And before someone suggests that’s not possible, please recall Murphy has laws about this sort of thing, and as bad as things are, they can always be worse.

Oh, it’s totally possible. It’s just that they’re creating more problems by not doing anything, in my opinion. And also, at this point, I’m absolutely willing to risk the trait system turning out worse, if it means we get to see that they’re actually working on it.

You know, there is nothing left to say here. Anet will just do as they have been, coming in extremely rarely to get us all going again on posting what we already did, but implement nothing. Eventually we will all get tired, stop posting things we have already said, and this thread will die. Anet will do a “Gosh, golly, gee! No one is complaining anymore! Must be they all are ok with it now!” Then there will be nothing done. It’s happened before, will happen again, and will never change.

We already paid Anet. We don’t matter, anymore.

Fernling.1729:

BilboBaggins.5620:

tofumon.5924:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Deamhan.9538:

Wow, 60 pages of pretty much players complaining about the new trait system.

It’s called a hint Anet, take one.

They have. Now I suspect they’re trying not to make a move on this until they can feel things out better than they did the first time. Rather than, you know, rush into a change and botch it up worse.

And before someone suggests that’s not possible, please recall Murphy has laws about this sort of thing, and as bad as things are, they can always be worse.

Alternatively, they might have purposely designed this new trait system to be a big time/gold/skill point sink to make the game last longer and/or encourage lazy players to buy gold.

All the gold in the game can’t buy skill points.

Convert to gems, buy black lion keys and level up with the tomes.
I don’t think it was added for the reasons you quoted though. People were wanting something similar to gw1 and this was their initial attempt.

Well… it’s a kitten poor attempt.

This is the most disappointing thread ever, in the history of gaming. It has out-lived the job of the OP, and NOTHING has come of it.

I came to see if it was worth logging into the new release. Clearly not.

I saw something on MMORPG that the NPE was taken from Wildstar’s leveling process. It really rings true when you compare them. Why? What a horrible choice…. and Chap left.

Are any originals left anymore? Where are they all going so I know what company to start following?

3000 posts, over 6 months of activity and being often seen on the first page. And yet despite that there has been so little of substance in response from Anet that we can see. I there has been some big movements, why not try to restore confidence and trust by showing us, and hang your frankly stupid policy? Unless of course said policy helps to cover up the fact that nothing has come of our criticisms and concerns. Such a pity the gaming sites didn’t get a hold of it. That Anet cares more about bad press than the players who supported and support their game speaks wonders.

This thread represents all the bad things about the game. That things were changed isn’t the problem. That they were changed, overwhelmingly for the worse and Anet got panicked and closed off all contact for so long is. It was a bold idea, and just needed refinement once it was live. But to appear to do absolutely nothing on this issue for over 6 months is just ridiculous. It raises the question of when will ou feedback be considered and used? Anpther 6 months? A couple of years? When Anet finally figure out that constant tweaking of things making the core mechanics worse will deter new players and get rid of old ones? Or are they going to be singing the “we are listening” tune well into the twilight hours of this game’s life, whenever that may be.

I love the game. I still do. Even now I do things and see things that blow me away. Just a few weeks ago I went on a quest to do as many jumping puzzles as I could (only ever bothered witht he Queensdale one for the daily). I found, snuggled in Lions Arch, Weyandts Folly (Is that what its called – the pirate ghost fellow). And was blown away that such an intricate and atmospheric place was made and then slapped down into a major hub. Every step felt like delving into the unknown. I felt like Indiana Jones meets Jack Sparrow. So many amazing ideas all put in one puzzle that I was amazed I hadn’t found the place before and experienced its awesomeness.

The point is that even now, after over 2 years of playing I see things that make me appreciate the greatness of this game, and the skill and creativity of those who made it. The problem comes with the crushing disappointment of marrying that to recent design decisions regarding game mechanics. I love the game, the world, the puzzles, the Living Story. But when I fear for what features and changes to mechanics that may are being made every patch, it always is something I am wary of. Shouldn’t the feeling Anet be after is one of excitement and anticipation for new features, and not dread?

To re-iterate my position, the idea of doing things to unlock traits is fine. But it needs to scale a little better. The first tier of traits I believe should be automatically unlocked, to have a starting point. I think that the intermediate tiers need some work just to reduce the effort needed on some. Perhaps gating them behind events that aren’t at the end of such chains may make it a little easier and get players used to the idea of unlocking traits this way. By all means have the final tier of traits as they are, as a greater challenge for greater rewards. If you have to have a system of unlocking traits, at least make the requirements appropriate to the level of trait you are unlocking. If build experimentation is truly one of your goals, the current system is far too unwieldy for it, to the point I jsut use my old chars for it. Its a huge barrier to new ones.

As for cost of unlocking traits at the NPC, it is too prohibitive, and particularly hits those players with large number of character slots. Often, but not always, many of those slots are bought with gems, so its strange that you are potentially hitting your supporters more. I know thats a natural thing, with more alts comes more gear to buy etc, but the vast costs here do nothing to help new player or altoholic alike get a foot on the ladder.

If the current system is to remain, and given its development time and Anets utter silence on tweaking the system (saying they are listening is not the same as showing they are listening), it is, then eventually it will need an overhaul to fit into the current design philosophy. Because ultimately, cost and requirements mean it is not a system that is friendly to new players. Unless of course Anet do not believe that the New Players wil stick around long enough to use the system. With their current silence on major issues, your guess could well be as good as theirs.

The above post by Wolfheart pretty much sums up all of it for me.

I love the game still but the only way I can play is by trying to forget how Anet is treating us. This comment is mainly for a placemarker so I can find Wolfheart’s post again.

The really sad part is that 2 months into this trait change I would have been perfectly happy with a modest price drop, aligning the adept and master level traits with more level appropriate areas/events and leaving the GM traits where they were. Now? No. Now i want a full reversion, and if that isn’t possible i want a FULL reworking of the system to tie traits to events and tasks that are MEANINGFUL to the trait being obtained/class it is for. Kill “X” amount of undead in the swamp in Gendarin to get some undead related trait for necros. Make it something that the player can say, "yes, I understand why this has anything to do with this trait.

Leveling used to be fun. now, I can’t be bothered to even consider it anymore. I have a slot that i use to painfully key farm now if i have more than 20 minutes to spare. If not, i might do my daily once a week, usually on WvW reset night, then don’t touch the game again until the next reset night.

Its just not fun anymore.

So I had already everything unlocked a year ago, came back and still. have to buy stuff to unlock it again? After this good LS update just feels like Im better of staying away from these horrid decisions anet makes.

aspirine.6852:

So I had already everything unlocked a year ago, came back and still. have to buy stuff to unlock it again? After this good LS update just feels like Im better of staying away from these horrid decisions anet makes.

If you had it unlocked on a character a year ago, that character will only have to buy/hunt for the 5 new traits each profession got in April.

Guhracie.3419:

aspirine.6852:

So I had already everything unlocked a year ago, came back and still. have to buy stuff to unlock it again? After this good LS update just feels like Im better of staying away from these horrid decisions anet makes.

If you had it unlocked on a character a year ago, that character will only have to buy/hunt for the 5 new traits each profession got in April.

New traits. ah thanks. I see I fell into the trap of speaking first and research later.