Guild Wars 2

Just chiming in to say that thanks to ANet’s cranial-rectal inversion regarding Traits, I’ve been able to spend money on other games. I only log in to GW2 in order to get the update, then back out as I see they haven’t been able to actually pay attention to their fan base. So, maybe the other studios should send ANet a thank you for getting money from me that ANet might have. I don’t mind paying for a decent game, for useful upgrades, to show my appreciation, but I’m sure not going to pay money to a company which has utterly ignored a dreadful changing to a core game mechanic that has a VERY high rate of loathing. So, the other game companies thank you, ANet. If you figure out how to give a single, tiny care about your customers, you may get some cash from me again.

Bernie.8674:

You’re missing the point that this is a serious impediment to the new player experience. […]
The goal of the trait system was ostensibly to make the new player experience more engaging, and it has done the exact opposite.

The Trait changes have got nothing to do with the NPE – they were introduced in april, the NPE in september. Back in april no one ever spoke of making this game “easier” for new players. The official explanation was to make leveling between level 30 and 60? more exciting.

Zaiteki.3265:

Just chiming in to say that thanks to ANet’s cranial-rectal inversion regarding Traits, I’ve been able to spend money on other games. I only log in to GW2 in order to get the update, then back out as I see they haven’t been able to actually pay attention to their fan base. So, maybe the other studios should send ANet a thank you for getting money from me that ANet might have. I don’t mind paying for a decent game, for useful upgrades, to show my appreciation, but I’m sure not going to pay money to a company which has utterly ignored a dreadful changing to a core game mechanic that has a VERY high rate of loathing. So, the other game companies thank you, ANet. If you figure out how to give a single, tiny care about your customers, you may get some cash from me again.

I quite agree. I am sure SCS Software (ETS2), Funcom (TSW) and Trion Worlds (Defiance) really appreciate my money more!

Jana.6831:

Bernie.8674:

You’re missing the point that this is a serious impediment to the new player experience. […]
The goal of the trait system was ostensibly to make the new player experience more engaging, and it has done the exact opposite.

The Trait changes have got nothing to do with the NPE – they were introduced in april, the NPE in september. Back in april no one ever spoke of making this game “easier” for new players. The official explanation was to make leveling between level 30 and 60? more exciting.

I don’t think Bernie was saying that he thought the traits were introduced as part of the NPE. The trait update, which came about from a few different things, suc as a CDI from around that time about progression (although it has been stated on this thread that this change bears very little relation to what the players in that CDI were actually getting at), as well as a desire to allow for greater build customisation.

However, the system, which was criticised heavily at release and continuously since, gains increased criticism based upon the later addition of the NPE. Making things easier for new players to get into the game by streamlining and simplifying aspects of progression, makes the incredible cost in terms of time, effort, gold and skill points of this system even more ridiculous and out of place. The point being made, simply, was that as convoluted and unnecessary as the new system was at its release, it is even more so now in relation to later efforts with the NPE.

Additionally, the NPE was the perfect opportunity for an overhaul to the new system. An opportunity lost. As it stands now, the trait system is something of an oddity. A relatively newer system that, while certainly with some aspects of promise, is so counter to the re-focused aims of Anet with the NPE that its continued existence is hard to explain, let alone justify. Ultimately the system is a huge barrier for new players trying to get stuck in and enjoy the game to the fullest as soon as possible. Given a focus is on getting new players and keeping them playing, the fact that the trait requirements remain unchanged is shocking.

Jana.6831:

Back in april no one ever spoke of making this game “easier” for new players. The official explanation was to make leveling between level 30 and 60? more exciting.

From their own announcement: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/traits-unleashed-forty-new-traits-and-more/

“With this system, spending traits will be much easier for new players to understand.”

There’s a bunch of stuff in there about making the system more accessible. Most of the changes actually exacerbate the problems they were trying to solve. One example, “Once you reach the appropriate level, we want you to be able to dive right into the system and start playing around with it, so you’ll unlock each tier for free!” They don’t mention that the actual traits will be locked behind content you have no hope of doing at your level, so you can’t exactly dive right into the system.

On a different, related topic. Would any of the people who are defending this system actually mind if they reverted it back to the old system? To the point where you’d stop playing? It seems like you see criticism of the system as criticism of the game, which for most of the critics is wrong. We want the old system back because we like the game except for this system.

Wolfheart.1879:

Jana.6831:

Bernie.8674:

You’re missing the point that this is a serious impediment to the new player experience. […]
The goal of the trait system was ostensibly to make the new player experience more engaging, and it has done the exact opposite.

The Trait changes have got nothing to do with the NPE – they were introduced in april, the NPE in september. Back in april no one ever spoke of making this game “easier” for new players. The official explanation was to make leveling between level 30 and 60? more exciting.

I don’t think Bernie was saying that he thought the traits were introduced as part of the NPE. The trait update, which came about from a few different things, suc as a CDI from around that time about progression (although it has been stated on this thread that this change bears very little relation to what the players in that CDI were actually getting at), as well as a desire to allow for greater build customisation.

However, the system, which was criticised heavily at release and continuously since, gains increased criticism based upon the later addition of the NPE. Making things easier for new players to get into the game by streamlining and simplifying aspects of progression, makes the incredible cost in terms of time, effort, gold and skill points of this system even more ridiculous and out of place. The point being made, simply, was that as convoluted and unnecessary as the new system was at its release, it is even more so now in relation to later efforts with the NPE.

Additionally, the NPE was the perfect opportunity for an overhaul to the new system. An opportunity lost. As it stands now, the trait system is something of an oddity. A relatively newer system that, while certainly with some aspects of promise, is so counter to the re-focused aims of Anet with the NPE that its continued existence is hard to explain, let alone justify. Ultimately the system is a huge barrier for new players trying to get stuck in and enjoy the game to the fullest as soon as possible. Given a focus is on getting new players and keeping them playing, the fact that the trait requirements remain unchanged is shocking.

I seem to be hard to understand – alright I didn’t assume that Bernie thought it was part of the NPE, I was just very sure that this wasn’t introduced for new players. I’ve read the very same link you just gave me and just got “add more meaningful character progression from levels 30 to 80” for some reason.
I don’t think the real NPE is bad for new players, I also don’t think it’s bad for experienced players as it doesn’t really restrict anything, apart from some stuff below level 15? The trait changes do restrict. I’m still quite confident that anet works on something to improve the trait aquisition and maybe the NPE came out to early for that – I don’t know. Just wanted to point out that these two things don’t belong together.

Oh, you were the wrong person I replied to, Eitri gave the link.

Even from the, “more meaningful progression from 30 to 80,” standpoint it was a fail. They removed traits from characters within that range (reverse progression) and left a bunch of levels empty in that range. Before a trait point each level wasn’t generally a game changer, but it was at least something. With a bigger something that could be a game changer every five levels.

Eitri.2608:

Even from the, “more meaningful progression from 30 to 80,” standpoint it was a fail. They removed traits from characters within that range (reverse progression) and left a bunch of levels empty in that range. Before a trait point each level wasn’t generally a game changer, but it was at least something. With a bigger something that could be a game changer every five levels.

I know
That wasn’t my point. I know that the trait system sucks but in my opinion they didn’t introduce it to make it easier for new players, which you just kind of contradicted – I always thought they they realized that some people might struggle to learn this game afterwards and that’s why they introduced the NPE which I actually like – simply because I like this game and the depth it has but if people don’t get it the “Nerf this and that” threads won’t stop and if they don’t stop all the nice shiny stuff we have gets nerfed.

Eitri.2608:

Even from the, “more meaningful progression from 30 to 80,” standpoint it was a fail. They removed traits from characters within that range (reverse progression) and left a bunch of levels empty in that range. Before a trait point each level wasn’t generally a game changer, but it was at least something. With a bigger something that could be a game changer every five levels.

It sometimes WAS a game changer. Just 1 point in the tougness traitline of any class caused immediately noticeable changes to newer players. They saw themselves taking less damage, so it felt like to them that they were indeed getting stronger. Hell, a single point in the power traitline did the same thing, except with them killing things faster. That old system had some of my best memories, because I knew all it took was a few points in the toughness traitline and I’d start to see myself surviving enough to solo more content. Ahh memories, back when I could be an altaholic and throw all of my money at Anet~

Jana.6831:

I know
That wasn’t my point. I know that the trait system sucks but in my opinion they didn’t introduce it to make it easier for new players, which you just kind of contradicted – I always thought they they realized that some people might struggle to learn this game afterwards and that’s why they introduced the NPE which I actually like – simply because I like this game and the depth it has but if people don’t get it the “Nerf this and that” threads won’t stop and if they don’t stop all the nice shiny stuff we have gets nerfed.

The NPE mostly is “right” except for some of the more asinine skill gating issues still in place.

As for NPE adding or exemplifying the game’s depth, I think it actually detracts from it by parsing out the building blocks of the game.

You can either give the kid a handful of building blocks or just one every 20 minutes; I can more or less guarantee you that the kid will be more engaged with multiple building blocks versus just one or two.

My elementalist just dinged 35 with the single whopping minor Trait Point he got at level 30 and he finally got the last skill slot unlocked at level 31. It sucks being level 35 with no direction in a build or play-style. It didn’t used to be this way, the game is no longer liberating, it’s stifling.

I can not believe ANet thinks that this is the superior approach to progression.

Kuldebar.1897:

The NPE mostly is “right” except for some of the more asinine skill gating issues still in place.

As for NPE adding or exemplifying the game’s depth, I think it actually detracts from it by parsing out the building blocks of the game.

You can either give the kid a handful of building blocks or just one every 20 minutes; I can more or less guarantee you that the kid will be more engaged with multiple building blocks versus just one or two.

My elementalist just dinged 35 with the single whopping minor Trait Point he got at level 30 and he finally got the last skill slot unlocked at level 31. It sucks being level 35 with no direction in a build or play-style. It didn’t used to be this way, the game is no longer liberating, it’s stifling.

I can not believe ANet thinks that this is the superior approach to progression.

No, I actually think it helps new players to get the depth of this game as the NPE points out certain aspects of it. Not saying it’s the best way to ensure people learn more about combos, food, combat but it is a start and better than nothing. I also think that while it doesn’t explain everything in depth it reminds people that there is stuff they can look up – ideal would be if there would be some kind of in game wiki or a list of all tool tips so people could look up what they just accidently clicked away. It doesn’t really matter whether or not I’m not able to use bundles at level 5 when I’m able to use them at level 10. Skill points should be availlable at all levels though – I didn’t figure out there was such thing as skill point challenges until I was a rather high level, but others might accidently stumble upon them, finish them and that’s less confusing than not being able to do anything with them at all – but alas, my last toon had been level 10+ when the NPE hit, so I don’t know if and what message new players get when coming across a SP challenge.
And yeah, I still agree that the trait lock/unlock stuff is a mess and that it contradicts the NPE which was introduced later on.

Edit: spelling

Jana.6831:

No, I actually think it helps new players to get the depth of this game as the NPE points out certain aspects of it.

I guess I have a hard time thinking that making the kiddie side of a swimming pool more extensive adds to the “depth” of the swimming pool. I’d argue that is actually making a larger portion of the pool more shallow by doing so.

The NPE is tolerable but in conjunction with the doling out of Trait Unlocks, it’s grating.

I’ve played off and on since BWE2. There are things I love about GW2 and things I really dislike. I’ve posted in this forum already, but I’ll just go ahead and put my story down here.

I only have maybe 4 or 5 80s. I love making alts and playing around with race and class, see how each feels. I made a warrior after the April Update, because, hey, warriors are easy to level and I can always do for an extra. It’s now at level 61 after 7 months. I find it awful to play, since it has one trait and I’d need to trek halfway across tyria to maybe find the ones I would like. I have 4 or 5 more alts that are sitting at levels 20-30 because I feel no reason to really play them, since they’ll be useless in PvE and they’re mostly duplicates. I don’t feel like grinding out six characters worth of traits, and I sure as hell ain’t paying for it either.

Before this patch, I spent probably 10 dollars a month in gems on average. I think the last thing I purchased gems with real money for was the Noble outfit. Outside of that, I’ve used in game gold for everything, farming just enough to get what I want from the gem store, and then losing interest and going elsewhere to game.

For anyone who hasn’t, I would recommend playing the first guild wars. It’s very different from its successor, but you can see very clearly what Anet had hoped to do with the Trait-gate, and how poorly they implemented it.

The problem is simple. In the first game, you had no skills to start. You would then acquire your first set through the starting quests, and from there you were on your own to get more. Some were quest rewards, some you captured from bosses, many you could purchase outright. With the GW2, the update means you start with no traits. You acquire them much like you did in the first game, in a variety of ways, and you can also purchase them. The problem is, unlike the first game, you’re not given a “starter set,” and it’s either a time or money sink.

Maybe that’s all they wanted it to be. A way to keep players in game for another few hours, hoping something would catch their attention while they grinded the levels or gold or events to unlock their traits. In my experience, it hasn’t worked in that manner at all. Of the six people I started with, only two still play, and it’s only because they RP more than anything else. One quit because of school, but the other three played off and on until this patch. I don’t know if my experience is typical, but I do know one thing…

I’m playing a lot of Guild Wars 1 now.

sorudo.9054:

actually they did go that far, a new character needs to grind to level 23 to get all normal skill slots unlocked, pre-september you could unlock them from point one.
i am lucky enough to have enough chances for a lvl 20 scroll but sadly, the game only starts around lvl45, way to much grind to get there.

The game only started being REALLY fun for me at level 80 tbh. No build feels quite right without the full amount of trait points available.

Kuldebar.1897:

Jana.6831:

No, I actually think it helps new players to get the depth of this game as the NPE points out certain aspects of it.

I guess I have a hard time thinking that making the kiddie side of a swimming pool more extensive adds to the “depth” of the swimming pool. I’d argue that is actually making a larger portion of the pool more shallow by doing so.

The NPE is tolerable but in conjunction with the doling out of Trait Unlocks, it’s grating.

Yes, but I tried to explain that the NPE has got nothing to do with the trait changes – now in 4 posts =)
And I don’t actually think that the NPE dumbs anything down, the main argument people have is that they can’t use bundles in quests (but not every quest is with bundles anyway) in starter zones and that the weapon skill unlock is level bound – that doesn’t dumb down anything.
The skill point challenges and vistas which are there but not accessible are a different thing as they are availlable on every map and people might not try to get them again after they’ve been resticted to get them once.

Jana.6831:

Yes, but I tried to explain that the NPE has got nothing to do with the trait changes – now in 4 posts =)
And I don’t actually think that the NPE dumbs anything down, the main argument people have is that they can’t use bundles in quests (but not every quest is with bundles anyway) in starter zones and that the weapon skill unlock is level bound – that doesn’t dumb down anything.
The skill point challenges and vistas which are there but not accessible are a different thing as they are availlable on every map and people might not try to get them again after they’ve been resticted to get them once.

While the NPE was released after the changes to traits, both were intended to “improve the new player experience.” The NPE is somewhat successful, as it is very easy to follow, at the expense of boring veterans who would like to quickly unlock everything and continue playing on a new character (level 20 scrolls do help this).

When you combine the two changes, you have a game that’s very easy to learn, but tedious to play, especially if you play multiple characters. Personally, I would’ve loved to see 60 being almost everything unlocked with GM traits, 10/14 trait points, skills unlocking from 5 or 10 to 25 for your elite, and post 60 being the time dungeoning and exploring are pushed, especially if you left GM traits locked so there was reason to hunt for these 15 traits, but the rest were unlocked so you could play around with most of your build already.

But, most people have said similar, and it’s not as if one more voice will get a response quicker, or a solution (just look at the engineer hobosack thread). I do think the NPE and traits were too much, and new players can be trusted with more information, but that may only be opinion, as I have no facts and only my own experience in MMOs and PnP RPGs to go off (meaning I may be more open to complex setups than most and therefore biased against simplicity).

Creld.8702:

While the NPE was released after the changes to traits, both were intended to “improve the new player experience.” The NPE is somewhat successful, as it is very easy to follow, at the expense of boring veterans who would like to quickly unlock everything and continue playing on a new character (level 20 scrolls do help this).

When you combine the two changes, you have a game that’s very easy to learn, but tedious to play, especially if you play multiple characters. Personally, I would’ve loved to see 60 being almost everything unlocked with GM traits, 10/14 trait points, skills unlocking from 5 or 10 to 25 for your elite, and post 60 being the time dungeoning and exploring are pushed, especially if you left GM traits locked so there was reason to hunt for these 15 traits, but the rest were unlocked so you could play around with most of your build already.

But, most people have said similar, and it’s not as if one more voice will get a response quicker, or a solution (just look at the engineer hobosack thread). I do think the NPE and traits were too much, and new players can be trusted with more information, but that may only be opinion, as I have no facts and only my own experience in MMOs and PnP RPGs to go off (meaning I may be more open to complex setups than most and therefore biased against simplicity).

No, they only said it was to improve the new players experience with the trait changes.* That’s as if I ate your cake and explain it with me not wanting you to put on weight.
I think I’ve already talked about the rest. But this much: Most people don’t know too much about this game – becomes evident in wvw where no one uses combos. Or at events where commanders quickly invent a trinity to avoid the simple boss mechanics.

.* People were asking for a skill unlock like in GW1 for ages and anet had been busy with the China launch, so I guess no one really thought this through.

Sorry, for clarification, can you specify who the first “They” is in you post? I don’t intend to nitpick off topic, I was just hoping for clarification on that pronoun.

As for average player intelligence, I personally have no idea. Usually my only difficulty in dungeons or other group content is a language barrier, rather than player skill. Still, this game is intended for a casual crowd, so perhaps the lowered rate of mechanics experienced is fully intended. It would simply be nice for players who do not need their proverbial hand held to avoid the tutoring and grind.

That’s hopefully not too far off topic, as this thread is traits specifically, but I think traits are part of a larger system that could be addressed for better player retention.

Uninstalled again, lasted 1 day this time, it’s like that Outer Limits (probably Twilight Zone rip-off) where the guy lives the same day and it keeps getting shorter.

Dear Anet junk message folder, the Traits and the NPE have killed your game for me.

Creld.8702:

Sorry, for clarification, can you specify who the first “They” is in you post? I don’t intend to nitpick off topic, I was just hoping for clarification on that pronoun.

As for average player intelligence, I personally have no idea. Usually my only difficulty in dungeons or other group content is a language barrier, rather than player skill. Still, this game is intended for a casual crowd, so perhaps the lowered rate of mechanics experienced is fully intended. It would simply be nice for players who do not need their proverbial hand held to avoid the tutoring and grind.

That’s hopefully not too far off topic, as this thread is traits specifically, but I think traits are part of a larger system that could be addressed for better player retention.

They = Arena net
No, it isn’t intended that people don’t know anything about boss mechanics and use their skills to avoid it instead. It has been intended that combos make some sense, otherwise there would be no combos.
Dungeons are kind of “watch a video and do it like in that video and you’re perfect” there’s not too much thinking or real knowledge involved – unless people are inexperienced when it comes to dungeons – those who know the general game mechanics will do better than those who neither know anything about said dungeon or the game mechanics.
The tutoring is gone with one click, don’t know why people really think that’s a hinderance for veteran players. I wouldn’t mind an option to turn it off though, although I wouldn’t use that option as I’m not bothered by the tooltips at all.

Traits. Trait system changes and improvements. Let’s please keep this topic on its tracks as I frankly don’t want there to be any excuse for it to be closed.

Please keep the banter to what changes you might want to see to the trait system to improve it from its current version.

Also, for the devs that might be looking here (unless all you are doing is sending Gaile in here periodically):

Have any of the suggestions in the last 5 pages been seriously considered or a variation there of? Have any been tested? Was it a positive or negative outcome if so? Can we PLEASE get some feedback along those lines already?!

PookieDaWombat.6209:

Traits. Trait system changes and improvements. Let’s please keep this topic on its tracks as I frankly don’t want there to be any excuse for it to be closed.

Please keep the banter to what changes you might want to see to the trait system to improve it from its current version.

Also, for the devs that might be looking here (unless all you are doing is sending Gaile in here periodically):

Have any of the suggestions in the last 5 pages been seriously considered or a variation there of? Have any been tested? Was it a positive or negative outcome if so? Can we PLEASE get some feedback along those lines already?!

Unfortunately, If they close it, they close it, and it can be done using any excuse.
(Recalling back to the time they decided to close/delete a thread that was on topic and had red posts in it)
The problem is with little feedback of what’s been noted, there same ideas just pool around again, time after time.

After seeing that SWTOR was cutting the costs out of spec-ing up/upgrading skills, I would say GW2 should (at least as a temporary measure) lower the cost of currency to purchase a select number of skills. (that way, they can still control and maintain what skills get out easily but doesn’t break too much of what they may change in the future)

They do have to throw us a bone at some point, to at least let people know that they’re listening and they’re going to change something temporarily to insure they work on a better plan for the trait system.

At the very least, I’d love to see a blog post about them responding to the trait changes, and what their metrics have shown them.
Apparently, simple acknowledgement that the system is borked, is way too much to ask.

I’m convinced that Anet will not change the trait buying system. When you think about it, less gold in the players pockets means a higher probability for players to buy gems and convert them to gold. If they do change the system I’m convinced it will be some horribly complicated idea that further ruin the game.

I made a post 10 days ago about a very simple fix to the trait problem. They deleted the thread! Not locked. Deleted. The fix was as such:

For each level 80 character lower the cost of buying traits for any character(including the one that was just leveled) by 18%. When an account has 5 L80’s, lock the cost of buying traits at 10% of what it currently costs.

Thus, when you level your 5th L80 the total cost to buy all traits for any character(including the 5 L80’s) would be 4.3gold and 36Skill points. IE a cost almost similar to what it cost to trait a character before the stupid change. Everyone wins. Anet gets a gold sink for 5 characters leveled, vets get to play how they used to (assuming they have 5 level 80’s), altaholics are not shafted with one of the worst gold sinks imaginable and the world is still populated with people leveling toons.

America, how about no to that suggestion. The problem right now is that the entire process is far too tedious. And I’m sure most people have no been buying gems to convert into gold…they’ve stopped buying from the store in general because they’ve lost the will to play.

@America. There is a problem with having changing prices. Make it cheaper for the first timer and then progressively more expensive for each alt and you alienate your more experienced players. Make it cheaper for each alt and you are alienating your newer players by having it most expensive for them.

Either way is a bad deal. So leaving the price constant for both groups is the most fair. However, they could allow cross purchasing. So I can spend my necro’s skill points on traits for my mesmer. Once you buy all your skills and have all your traits, there really isn’t much to continue to spend skill points on. When you level a character, your skill points should go toward skill before traits. So to use another characters skills instead would help.

I have been logging into see if I can get back that ‘feel’ for GW2 which AprilMegaFailPatch took away.

No dice. And I have a run to complete in European Truck Simulator 2…

Deamhan.9538:

@America. There is a problem with having changing prices. Make it cheaper for the first timer and then progressively more expensive for each alt and you alienate your more experienced players. Make it cheaper for each alt and you are alienating your newer players by having it most expensive for them.

Either way is a bad deal. So leaving the price constant for both groups is the most fair. However, they could allow cross purchasing. So I can spend my necro’s skill points on traits for my mesmer. Once you buy all your skills and have all your traits, there really isn’t much to continue to spend skill points on. When you level a character, your skill points should go toward skill before traits. So to use another characters skills instead would help.

Deanhan, I think you misunderstood what I said. The simple fix I proposed was not to increase the cost of traits. The fix was to decrease the cost of traits as you get L80’s. The decreased cost is permanent and retroactive, so it applies to any character you currently have and all characters you make in the future.

I don’t like the idea of cross purchasing because from an rpg viewpoint it makes no sense. This game all ready blurs the line between your characters far too much for an rpg. Any farther and you may as well not even have separate characters. (But this is another discussion onto itself)

Obviously the best solution for players is to revert the trait cost back to its original design. But that is not ever gonna happen. Why? Because Anet created a massive gold sink and it’s probably working as designed. (However I think another reason is that it would bruise the egos of the “designers” who think they’ve created a really cool trait unlocking system. In reality they’ve created a horrible system for leveling alts. One of the worst in mmorpg history. There is a sort of cognitive dissonance going on with the design team about this topic. They know it is kitten but at the same time it can’t be because, well, their egos are telling them that they don’t design kitten.)

I want to love this game again. I think that’s why it’s so galling when people say that if I don’t like the changes, I should just leave, or that I am a troll, or that I’m just trying to spread hate, or that I’m whining because I’m a complainer, or that only disgruntled people come to the forum.

I have a lot of positive things to say. I’ve said positive things, many, many times. I’ve tried to be optimistic. I give credit where it’s due. I don’t hate the game or the team. I actually want to spend time in Tyria again. It is because of my previous enjoyment in the game that I am so disheartened by these changes.

I doubt this will make a difference to the next person to come in here and bash me for being an entitled little idiot or whatever other insults it’s apparently reasonable for people who aren’t me to throw around, but I still felt it needed to be said.

But let me just point this out:
If I’d started playing in April of this year and I had all of the characters I do today with their current spread of traits unlocked, it would have cost me 473g and 3960 skillpoints. Or, even suggesting that I purchased only half of the unlocks, and I did the rest of them organically, that’s 236g50s and 1980 skillpoints. It boggles the mind.

@Guhracie:

Don’t let those people get to you. Some people are so narrow-minded that if you have even a slightly differing view, you are automatically a troll. At the end of the day, those who just bash others here for that haven’t a clue. it is perfectly possible for someone to have a different opinion to another, and both of those be valid. Just because many of us here have a more negative view isn’t that we are haters,just that we see it differently. Incidentally, Anet, despite their lack of action, have said they understand where we come from and see the validity of our concerns.

To those who do want to bash: The reason we voice our frustration with the game isn’t by any means out of a hatred for the game. When you have played for as long as many of us have, and have bought gems and stuff, we have supported the game just like many others. We wouldn’t do that if we hated it, and if we felt the game was beyond hope, we would stop posting and chalk it up as a lost cause. We post our criticisms because, for the most part we love the game, but on this issue we see the game has become worse as a result. That doesn’t mean we hate the game, or just want to bash. But we see some serious issues around this system and with how Anet communicate with us. if you disagree, that is fine, offer the point of view. that is how consensus is reached, how quality debate and discussion occurs. If you resort to attacking the poster and not the argument, it just shows you have nothing of substance to counter with it.

Although for the most part I haven’t seen or been subjected to such. At the end of the day my love for the game has been lessened, and my drive to do things has spluttered a bit. Thats a combination of a few things. Anet’s continuing communication issues and lethargy at best and ignoring of us at worse on this issue is a part of that. But so is a general cycle of activity on the game I go through, as well as a lot of new content released recently by a certain other MMO that I am focused on. I still play, but to a lesser extent, and will no doubt play more actively at some point soon. But it still cruses me that 2 thirds of my chars are handicapped by being behind this huge wall. As Guhracie showed, there is a serious cost to buying the traits, or a time investment when going for a lot of characters, or characters for the first time. Ultimately, is it beneficial to the game to have a core mechanic so heavily gated behind a pay/timewall. To me it can severely lengthen the time it takes for a character to have a build the player is comfortable with and makes it a much longer time for a character to be seen as viable by the player. A bit of effort is fine. The amount here, in my opinion, is not.

Jana.6831:

Bernie.8674:

You’re missing the point that this is a serious impediment to the new player experience. […]
The goal of the trait system was ostensibly to make the new player experience more engaging, and it has done the exact opposite.

The Trait changes have got nothing to do with the NPE – they were introduced in april, the NPE in september. Back in april no one ever spoke of making this game “easier” for new players. The official explanation was to make leveling between level 30 and 60? more exciting.

I’m sorry I wasn’t clear. I consider those who are levelling from 30 to 60 to be new players. Maybe my perspective is skewed because everyone in my guild pretty much already had level 80 characters for most classes when this change was introduced. For what it’s worth, I started playing after this change took place so I never got to benefit from the original trait system. I posted details of my experiences early in the thread, but suffice it to say that I found the system to be extremely confusing and cumbersome. Now that I’m familiar with it, it’s not as confusing, but it’s still extremely cumbersome.

nethykins.7986:

They do have to throw us a bone at some point, to at least let people know that they’re listening and they’re going to change something temporarily to insure they work on a better plan for the trait system.

At the very least, I’d love to see a blog post about them responding to the trait changes, and what their metrics have shown them.
Apparently, simple acknowledgement that the system is borked, is way too much to ask.

I agree someone needs to say something here! This is getting old very quickly. Also, I hear alot of people saying this was a gold sink. For me because I’m not creating alts and outfitting them, I’m getting plenty-O-gold in the bank. Plus all this silence and silly changes has closed my wallet for support of the game.

Bernie.8674:

I started playing after this change took place so I never got to benefit from the original trait system. I posted details of my experiences early in the thread, but suffice it to say that I found the system to be extremely confusing and cumbersome. Now that I’m familiar with it, it’s not as confusing, but it’s still extremely cumbersome.

How many traits do you have unlocked now? Did you stop after you finished enough for what you had in mind, or did you want to unlock more so you could get traits to “experiment” with?

Over on this thread

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-Patch-Next-Week-please-reconsider

this beautiful gem from Anet;

“We pride ourselves on addressing issues as promptly as possible”

I know, its a post from another thread, and I have posted other ones from other threads, as the recent history of this thread is notorious for it’s lack of substantial input. At about page 43, Anet acknowledged this system needs work. Admittedly, they also said that a whole new system would take time to make, but in meantime quicker patch ups of the current system for better quality of life would be quicker and feasible in the shorter term. Just for completions sake, the post I refer to is thus;

“To be clear we are looking at the system as a whole but recognize that changing that will take longer than is satisfying and are looking for ways to improve the current system until a time at which we can make a better overall system from the ground up. Specific suggestions on what traits are poorly placed are helpful for #1, specific suggestions on #2 are also welcome but are going to be read but not responded too right now.”

Page 43 was over 3 months ago. This thread, and indeed this system is nearing the 8 month mark. Given that page 43, in terms of substantive contributions to this issue rather than just thanking us for feedback, is probably the last of those such substantive posts to this point, and there has been countless opportunities with fortnightly patches to make some changes to the current system for the better, and also that it as several months between the system changes and Anet starting to really respond to this thread, I can only ask Anet the following questions;

Do you feel that you have addressed the issues raised in this thread promptly? And are you proud of the way you have addressed this issue?

Wolfheart.1879:

Over on this thread

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-Patch-Next-Week-please-reconsider

this beautiful gem from Anet;

“We pride ourselves on addressing issues as promptly as possible”

To be fair, I think Gaile meant bugs. Still, I also found that post amusing.

I recognise that, given context, Gaile was referring to that, and I mentioned it was from another thread as a way to (perhaps poorly) make that point. That said, i also like to think there should be some consistency, that if Anet is on-message, it can be somewhat transferable.

I think choice of word “issues” rather than “bugs” was the point that amused me, and I find the post amusing for that probable slip of the tongue. But given that statement as it was, and also how many contributors to this thread feel the thread has been handled, it can be a valid question.

Well, given that we are headed into the holiday section of game updates I think it will be a safe assumption that we won’t see even a menial change to the trait system (even for QoL reasons) until AFTER the living story resumes.

So, maybe sometime in February then? Maybe? Anet? Anything? Is there literally ANYthing in the queue for Traits?

I hope at the least this is fixed by the 1-year mark. Considering there are a lot of players who are unhappy and haven’t played as much since it was introduced, it’d be the perfect time to fix it. And please, let it be either you switch it to where only the GM traits need unlocking, or do it like many have asked, to where you have to do things related to the actual trait.

PookieDaWombat.6209:

Well, given that we are headed into the holiday section of game updates I think it will be a safe assumption that we won’t see even a menial change to the trait system (even for QoL reasons) until AFTER the living story resumes.

So, maybe sometime in February then? Maybe? Anet? Anything? Is there literally ANYthing in the queue for Traits?

Like I’ve stated: at the very LEAST i’d like to see some acknowledgement that they understand the trait system is broken and they’re looking into it, talking about it, discussing it, whatever.

Preferably in a blog post because it feels a little more “official” than just throwing a post on the forums that only forum-members can see.

RyuDragnier.9476:

I hope at the least this is fixed by the 1-year mark. Considering there are a lot of players who are unhappy and haven’t played as much since it was introduced, it’d be the perfect time to fix it. And please, let it be either you switch it to where only the GM traits need unlocking, or do it like many have asked, to where you have to do things related to the actual trait.

Don’t think it will be. Look how long it took them to get an LFG Tool added, or look at the now defunct dungeon improvements – how long it took them to start and the fact they hadn’t event scratched the surface before giving up, look at how long it took to even open up the traits for easy experimentation (resetting/unlocking without trainer) until they decided to just wreck that idea with what they have now.

Expect that in 2 years, mate.

nethykins.7986:

PookieDaWombat.6209:

Well, given that we are headed into the holiday section of game updates I think it will be a safe assumption that we won’t see even a menial change to the trait system (even for QoL reasons) until AFTER the living story resumes.

So, maybe sometime in February then? Maybe? Anet? Anything? Is there literally ANYthing in the queue for Traits?

Like I’ve stated: at the very LEAST i’d like to see some acknowledgement that they understand the trait system is broken and they’re looking into it, talking about it, discussing it, whatever.

Preferably in a blog post because it feels a little more “official” than just throwing a post on the forums that only forum-members can see.

They take the fight club approach to anything either under development or not under development (The first rule about things under development is: You don’t talk about things under development), so basically the first you’ll here about a change to the trait system is just before its implemented .. I have doubts about them doing anything about traits at this point so don’t expect so much as a peep from them on this.

Bernie.8674:

Mo Mo.1947:

The thread is 8 months old? Do you know many traits could’ve been unlocked in the time it’s taken to write all these posts? :P :P

You can’t call minimal grind gamebreaking. Is this your all’s first MMO? It’s so easy and fast to level characters.

You’re missing the point that this is a serious impediment to the new player experience. Just because I started MUDding over 20 years ago and am inclined to level to 80 regardless of what traits I have doesn’t mean that everyone else is going to be the same. The goal of the trait system was ostensibly to make the new player experience more engaging, and it has done the exact opposite.

Well I have a friend playing GW2 who has never played a computer game before and she’s doing quite well. I thought I would have to hold her hand through the game but she keeps leveling up and making progress without me around.

She seems to be learning the game quite well. The only thing she’s bad at is jumping puzzles :P She is an extreme noob and she’s still succeeding so the leveling system must be doing something right.

Also I haven’t ignored the trait unlock requirements. That’s the one thing that I do feel could change. It’s annoying, but not gamebreaking. Especially since you can unlock them for money. And given the drops you get at level 80 and how much they sell for on the TP you can make that goal in a relatively short amount of time.

I’d prefer to unlock traits instead of buy them, so I definitely would love a change in the specifics of how they are unlocked. I’d love them to be challenging but waiting around for a specific event in Orr is definitely problematic.

I was mapping tonight and heard someone in map chat being advised to buy a trait linked to a bugged event (devourer queen). As I always do, I pointed out that traits used to cost less than 3g to unlock all of them. The other person responded that since s/he had all the classes grandfathered in, s/he preferred the new system, since it allows for retraiting on the fly, for free. You know, if nobody was grandfathered in; if the veterans had been gated by this system, it would’ve been fixed within two weeks. Multiply the outcry against the commander tag prices by a thousand. This thread would have been 100 pages before the first week was out.

I really want to love the game again. I do. And then I think of how duplicitous it was to emphasize the quote below in the blog post about traits, rather than relaying that the tiers being unlocked for free is utterly meaningless, and there’s no way to dive in when you don’t have any traits.

Once you reach the appropriate level, we want you to be able to dive right into the system and start playing around with it, so you’ll unlock each tier for free!

I had a relatively freshly leveled thief 80, gave it my ranger’s full ascended gear and off I went to unlock the XIII traits – I already had the rest unlocked since it was level 70+ for over a year.

Okay, now I really wanted to unlock the following trait:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed_Training

For this I need to kill the Risen High Wizard right in front of Arah. I entered Cursed Shore for about 2 ours and nothing happened, I entered another 1-2 hours the next day, finished the map completion did Melandru for the 10000000000th time and still – no Risen High Wizard… I entered another couple of hours the next day: NO Risen High Wizard. The next day, I entered again: NO… GOD kitten RISEN HIGH WIZARD…

I ended up paying the 3g and 20 skill points at the trainer.

So, what the HELL were ArenaNet thinking about this? Do they really think it is fun to run the same map for hours and hours just to HOPE the god kitten event starts accidentaly? This is just one of the worst game designs I have ever seen in an MMO (and yes, there ARE extremely bad designs in many MMOs). You guys want to go ‘directly to the fun part’, then why do you do that? Why do you change this to such a god forsaken bad concept?

I liked the skill huntin in GW1, but there were two points which made it fun instead of tedious and frustrating:

- you could do it on your own (no group content)
- you could do it AT ANY GIVEN TIME <—- THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It was instanced, and I could do it when I felt I wanna do it. Do change that. Let us hunt those things, make it instanced or an open world fast spawning thing/event.

ProtoGunner.4953:

I liked the skill huntin in GW1, but there were two points which made it fun instead of tedious and frustrating:

- you could do it on your own (no group content)
- you could do it AT ANY GIVEN TIME <—- THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yep.
I think most of my issues with the trait unlocks can be summed up to lack of availability of the required tasks. Whether that be because you need a group or a zerg, or need to zone in at just the right time (or wait around for hours), or the events can’t even be completed (which is still a problem with several of them).
I could even suffer through the ridiculously long and mindless map completions if only I had the possibility to do any unlock when I need it /have the time.

Guhracie.3419:

I was mapping tonight and heard someone in map chat being advised to buy a trait linked to a bugged event (devourer queen). As I always do, I pointed out that traits used to cost less than 3g to unlock all of them.

There also used to be a lot less gold in the market. You can make 1 gold quite quickly in this game now even if you’re a newbie. 1g isn’t that big of a deal anymore.

My newbie friend had about 10 gold in their first couple weeks of playing just from going around doing random stuff they came across. And she was around level 20 at that point so she has plenty of time to accumulate more gold as she gets into the higher level areas and starts getting better drops and doing more profitable activities.

Mo Mo.1947:

Guhracie.3419:

I was mapping tonight and heard someone in map chat being advised to buy a trait linked to a bugged event (devourer queen). As I always do, I pointed out that traits used to cost less than 3g to unlock all of them.

There also used to be a lot less gold in the market. You can make 1 gold quite quickly in this game now even if you’re a newbie. 1g isn’t that big of a deal anymore.

My newbie friend had about 10 gold in their first couple weeks of playing just from going around doing random stuff they came across. And she was around level 20 at that point so she has plenty of time to accumulate more gold as she gets into the higher level areas and starts getting better drops and doing more profitable activities.

And how is your hypothetical newbie doing with skillpoints? You know, the things that go to buying actual… skills… along with traits? And, which have been overall reduced since the beginning of the game?

If this newbie is swimming in skill points, give me his secret.

I dislike the gold cost but can live with it… as a leveled veteran. The skill point cost, on the other hand, that is both often forgotten in these discussions and much harder to meet than the gold.

Mo Mo.1947:

Guhracie.3419:

I was mapping tonight and heard someone in map chat being advised to buy a trait linked to a bugged event (devourer queen). As I always do, I pointed out that traits used to cost less than 3g to unlock all of them.

There also used to be a lot less gold in the market. You can make 1 gold quite quickly in this game now even if you’re a newbie. 1g isn’t that big of a deal anymore.

My newbie friend had about 10 gold in their first couple weeks of playing just from going around doing random stuff they came across. And she was around level 20 at that point so she has plenty of time to accumulate more gold as she gets into the higher level areas and starts getting better drops and doing more profitable activities.

Also, please let us know how this newbie is liking the idea of buying traits/obtaining through tasks once they’ve spent their gold on armor/runes/sigils/accessories and have rolled another alt or 2 and need to do it all over for them.

We’ll wait.

Gregori.5807:

Mo Mo.1947:

Guhracie.3419:

I was mapping tonight and heard someone in map chat being advised to buy a trait linked to a bugged event (devourer queen). As I always do, I pointed out that traits used to cost less than 3g to unlock all of them.

There also used to be a lot less gold in the market. You can make 1 gold quite quickly in this game now even if you’re a newbie. 1g isn’t that big of a deal anymore.

My newbie friend had about 10 gold in their first couple weeks of playing just from going around doing random stuff they came across. And she was around level 20 at that point so she has plenty of time to accumulate more gold as she gets into the higher level areas and starts getting better drops and doing more profitable activities.

And how is your hypothetical newbie doing with skillpoints? You know, the things that go to buying actual… skills… along with traits? And, which have been overall reduced since the beginning of the game?

If this newbie is swimming in skill points, give me his secret.

I dislike the gold cost but can live with it… as a leveled veteran. The skill point cost, on the other hand, that is both often forgotten in these discussions and much harder to meet than the gold.

Given the overwhelmingly negative reaction most veteran players and many newer players who eventually end up on this thread have, I have always believed this change was far more about creating a skill point sink as opposed to a gold sink. My wife who has been playing a fairly short time compared to me and she’s sitting on 4 level 80 characters (3 were grandfathered in and the other simply bought most of the traits necessary for the build she wanted) with 5 crafting disciplines to level 500. She has around 500 gold banked (I helped a bit with that) – but only around 200 skill point scrolls banked. She could make 11 alts and pay for all their traits with gold EXCEPT she would likely never have enough skill points to do something like that. I have 6 level 80s (full ascended equipment on 4 of them) and 1 level 40 but I’ve been playing much longer than her and have about 600 skill points banked.

My only thought as to the “Why do this?” – ANet felt it needed a significant skill point sink (maybe because they are planning on adding new skills? or want to add a skill point-based objective at some point later?) and that the cost of kittening off a bunch of players was worth it to add that sink to the game.

I think it was both a gold AND skill point sink. But we already had a SP sink in the dailies, since I’m sure most veterans (like me) would maybe get one SP through play, then use a couple from the bank to get the required 3 for daily. Also, you can use them at the MF. And, again, new players are not swimming in this stuff, and since the trait changes were supposedly to makes things easier for new players, I call BS on the whole thing.

How many years is this going to drag on ANet? Fix this broken system.

Mo Mo.1947:

Guhracie.3419:

I was mapping tonight and heard someone in map chat being advised to buy a trait linked to a bugged event (devourer queen). As I always do, I pointed out that traits used to cost less than 3g to unlock all of them.

There also used to be a lot less gold in the market. You can make 1 gold quite quickly in this game now even if you’re a newbie. 1g isn’t that big of a deal anymore.

My newbie friend had about 10 gold in their first couple weeks of playing just from going around doing random stuff they came across. And she was around level 20 at that point so she has plenty of time to accumulate more gold as she gets into the higher level areas and starts getting better drops and doing more profitable activities.

If the game needs a gold sink to remove this “excess gold in the market”, perhaps it should be implemented at the expense of the veteran players, rather than the new ones.

You’re missing the point. The point is that the game gave access to all of the traits for under 3g for a year and a half, then when this new system was implemented (to make traits easier to understand, ostensibly), the sliver of information we were given about it crowed about the fact that trait tiers are now freely unlocked, so that you can “dive right in” to the system. It failed to mention that the new system would be linked to buggy, level-inappropriate, boring or time-intensive content. It failed to mention the increase in cost would also require an additional 360 skillpoints and 43g for the same thing that previously cost (and I really can’t overstate this) less than 3g.

So, yeah, newbies on their first characters and veterans on their last might enjoy running through this absurd list of unlocks once or twice, you let me know how your friend is enjoying it on her fourth or fifth character.

That is how I see it as well, Guhracie. I have a couple of new characters that I’m just not inspired to play due to the ridiculousness of the new system.

I really don’t get why the current trend seems to be repackaging this (and other aspects of the game) while making things clunky, nonsensical and less enjoyable.