Guild Wars 2

Gregori.5807:

Mo Mo.1947:

There also used to be a lot less gold in the market. You can make 1 gold quite quickly in this game now even if you’re a newbie. 1g isn’t that big of a deal anymore.

My newbie friend had about 10 gold in their first couple weeks of playing just from going around doing random stuff they came across. And she was around level 20 at that point so she has plenty of time to accumulate more gold as she gets into the higher level areas and starts getting better drops and doing more profitable activities.

And how is your hypothetical newbie doing with skillpoints? You know, the things that go to buying actual… skills… along with traits? And, which have been overall reduced since the beginning of the game?

If this newbie is swimming in skill points, give me his secret.

I dislike the gold cost but can live with it… as a leveled veteran. The skill point cost, on the other hand, that is both often forgotten in these discussions and much harder to meet than the gold.

PookieDaWombat.6209:

Also, please let us know how this newbie is liking the idea of buying traits/obtaining through tasks once they’ve spent their gold on armor/runes/sigils/accessories and have rolled another alt or 2 and need to do it all over for them.

We’ll wait.

My actual newbie friend, unlike the hypothetical newbie you’re all advocating for, doesn’t care about any of that stuff yet. Because she is a newbie.

The trait unlocks annoy VETERANS. WE the VETERANS want a little bit of change in how the traits are unlocked for OUR alts.

The new unlocks system doesn’t affect newbies because they are TOO NEW. They’ve got plenty of other stuff to learn about the game. And in the case of my friend, the leveling system seems to be helping her learn about the game in paced increments without overwhelming her.

This is not about newbies. It’s about veterans. Please keep the arguments about how the trait system affects veterans. There are plenty of valid arguments about how the trait system inconveniences veterans.

Mo Mo.1947:

The new unlocks system doesn’t affect newbies because they are TOO NEW to know they should care. They’ve got plenty of other stuff to learn about the game.

This is not about newbies. It’s about veterans. Please keep the arguments about how the trait system affects veterans.

I’m doing my part to ensure that newbies know they should care, because they’re getting ripped off. “Too new to know any better” is not a valid argument. This system affects everyone, new and veterans, and I will not adjust my arguments simply because you find them to be inconvenient.

Well, i’d assume that once a newbie gets levelled and wants to do some of the group content – dungeons, etc, this would then come up. Ultimately, every newbie will either become a veteran, or stop playing before that happens.

Ultimately, a “newbie” might find it quite fine to do the unlocks the time/effort way for their character, and aside from some awful gating behind event chains, it is probably a nice experience. But that newbie may have started with a guardian and decided to use anther slot on, say an engineer. At that point they may think its a bit of a drag and want to unlock some with gold and skill points. To a relatively new account, even one that is looking to make a full build, gold can be a bit of an issue, and skill points even more so for a newer character.

Once a newer player starts wanting to not just stick with one character, it becomes more and more an issue of less feeling like its a voyage of discovery, and more like a grind as its the same stuff as before. The quest for traits is simply not as engaging the second time around for many, and so they will try to skip some or all using the costlier method. Ultimately this system has an impact, good or bad, on all who use it, newbie and veteran alike. The issue may be, and is something I think you might be getting at a little, is that the more veteran the player is or becomes, the more this system potentially becomes a hindrance rather than a fun opportunity. While that can be natural on a second or third, or twenty-third playthrough, that doesn’t make the system all great by any stretch, and many issues that newbies don’t feel at the moment, may be issues they come to have as they play the game more.

Guhracie.3419:

You’re missing the point. The point is that the game gave access to all of the traits for under 3g for a year and a half, then when this new system was implemented (to make traits easier to understand, ostensibly), the sliver of information we were given about it crowed about the fact that trait tiers are now freely unlocked, so that you can “dive right in” to the system. It failed to mention that the new system would be linked to buggy, level-inappropriate, boring or time-intensive content. It failed to mention the increase in cost would also require an additional 360 skillpoints and 43g for the same thing that previously cost (and I really can’t overstate this) less than 3g.

I had major issue with this too. I feel like they basically lied to us. They claimed one thing but in reality it was the exact opposite. I got that slimy salesman vibe from reading that trait update description once I read about what the actual changes were.

Mo Mo.1947:

The new unlocks system doesn’t affect newbies because they are TOO NEW.

Alright. Let us know what your friend thinks of the trait unlocking system once she’s level 80 then.

Since I see this topic getting updated everytime I open the forum I decided to share my view on the subject.

I’m a new player, I only started playing AFTER the changes to the traits. So I have no idea what it was like.

I like the concept of having to do content to unlock a trait, no in fact I could say I love this concept. CONCEPT.
Because the current system is a leveling hell:

- I’m forced to do WvW content that I hate (and all the times I tried there was never a zerg to run with).

- Some events are broken like Foulbear.

- Some only happen at especific times. I’ve tried Karka queen, and was never online when it happened, I’ve tried the temples and had to wait on Orr for several minutes before it started, or I got in too late and the mob I needed to kill was already dead.

- Some require me to map an entire region like Lornar’s Pass. It was fun mapping that region with my first toon, but it’s not something I look forward to with the other toons, even though it does provide me with exp to level.

- Some require me to play my personal story until lv80, or rather, ALL OF IT. I don’t want to play the personal story of every single toon I make. Specially not when I have to run Arah Story mode, one of the worst and most disappointing dungeon/boss fights I ever had.

- Some require me to look up the Wiki to know what it is I need. Like killing Lord Ignius, or Rhendak. In my mind, anything that forces me out of the game is not well designed.

Like I said, I love the concept of having to explore Tyria, and participate in events to unlock my traits, but the system needs to be redone in a way that once I reach the point where I can start using traits, I actually have them unlocked.

I think a better system would make use of less events or have a wider range of events.

For example:

Completing any of the temple events in Orr counts as unlocking your trait.
Add to that, instead of unlocking a single trait. You actually unlock a trait for both the Power and Precision trees.

This way, players are still encouraged to travel around Tyria and explore new things, but have more time to enjoy and build their character, rather than spending time doing 65 different things (if I counted right), that they may or may not enjoy/be able to.

Hopefully dev’s actually read this topic.

Mo Mo.1947:

This is not about newbies. It’s about veterans. Please keep the arguments about how the trait system affects veterans. There are plenty of valid arguments about how the trait system inconveniences veterans.

First of all, I wasn’t aware you were a forum moderator.

Secondly, the discussions about new players are centered around Anet’s reasoning behind the trait changes, specifically pushing back the trait progression later in the level progression. See https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/traits-unleashed-forty-new-traits-and-more/ and https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Game-Updates-Traits/page/41#post4358626.

Just because you only have an issue with one part of the new trait system doesn’t invalidate the opinions of people who have other problems with it, including Anet’s communication around it. Several things were changed at once so we’re free to discuss any of them and how they affect both veterans and newbies alike.

Also this is most definitely about newbies, since we (the veterans) are not only concerned about how we received the change, but about how poorly “equipped” new players are to get all the traits organically, or buy them for ridiculous amounts of gold. Seriously, if this had been in the game from the start, I guarantee you I would never have stuck with the game. Now I am a veteran, and I find it just as hard to swallow. I’m not going to literally throw away 42g and 300+ skill points for one character’s traits. I don’t care if I have 50g or 5000g. That’s just not going to happen. And I’ve got world completion on 2 toons already and most of a 3rd. I’m done with it. I’d rather not be forced to do it again.

So, bottom line is that when I get bored with the 3 toons I have, I will leave the game rather than make another alt, because this trait system is. just. bad.

I solved my problem. On my main account, I simply deleted all non grandfathered characters. Thats what Anet wants, right? Less choice disguised as more choice.

My second account only has 3 characters, all non grandfathered. I just wont bother to play them, or spend money to buy gems for them until this is sorted.

Tying Trait unlocks to Achievements… It could work….

Disclaimer: I have no problem with the way traits worked before the change, but I feel like we will never see the old way again. So, instead, here is another alternative to the current trait system.

Ok so, each Trait Line (Burst, Condition, Toughness, Healing, Class-Specific) has its own set of Achievements tied to that line. So there are now 13 traits per line. Therefore, that would be 13 achievements per line. The Adept traits can be tied to relatively simple achievements, The Master Traits can have somewhat challenging achievements, and the Grandmaster can be some super engrossing, Meta-Achievements that are not just a huge Grind But also very fun to do. (These can be generalized achievements so you would only have to complete them once per account. Or, they can be class specific.)

Examples
(I will use the Engineer’s Explosives Trait Line as examples, but you’ll get the idea)

Adept
I. Acidic Elixers : Toss 500 Elixers to unlock this Trait
II. Shrapnel : Hit 500 enemies with explosive skills
III. Forceful Explosives: Use 400 Mines and 400 Bombs
IV. Empowering Adrenaline : Dodge 500 attacks
V. Accelerant-Packed Turrets : Plant 500 Turrets
VI. Exploit Weakness : Land 500 Killing Blows

Master
VII. Explosive Powder : Deal 500k damage with explosives
VIII. Short Fuse : Use 100 bombs and grenades in less than 2 minutes
IX. Incindiary Powder : Land 1000 Critical Hits
X. Enhance Performance : Heal 1 million worth of HP (you and your allies)

Grandmaster
XI. Grenadier : (ok for this one lets use a mob called “Skritt Runners”. These “Skritt Runners” will runaway from you, and remain at max range at all times, all the while zig-zagging and running around really fast… Maybe even dodge-rolling. Immune to CC. The point is these little buggers are very hard to catch)
So, the Achievement is to hunt down 20 “Skritt Runners” Through out Tyria and defeat them. Immune to all damage except Grenades.

XII. Autodefense Bomb Dispenser : Elaborate Scavenger Hunt that will require you to solve riddles, Complete certain JPs, and kill certain mobs (maybe one in a particular Dungeon path) in order to get all the required materials to build your Bomb Dispenser and unlock this Trait.

XIII. Synaptic Overload : Complete your personal Story

Again, these are just some ideas after about 5 minutes of thinking by myself. Im sure a team of experienced Devs can brainstorm for a little longer than 5 minutes and come up with some better stuff.

I feel Like the idea of Tying Traits to Trait-Specific Achievements would be better than the current system. Maybe not… who knows.

SenorMoody, that’s like the Xth time we’ve actually have somebody make that suggestion in this thread to have the traits unlocked like that. It’s a really good suggestion too, which is why we’re hoping Anet goes ahead and takes it into consideration and use since everybody agrees that it’s the best change they could do to the system if they’re that deadset on keeping how it is now.

Or just drop the price of the tomes, if it was 10 gold to twink a character’s skills I’d go for it. Luckily my engineer is the only one who has to deal with horrific alteration.

Guhracie.3419:

The other person responded that since s/he had all the classes grandfathered in, s/he preferred the new system, since it allows for retraiting on the fly, for free.

Changing traits anywhere OoC was a nice change. That said, there’s nothing inherent to changing traits for free that requires the traits be unlocked one-by-one. ANet could have added changing-for-free and kept trait acquisition the same as it was.

Mo Mo.1947:

Gregori.5807:

Mo Mo.1947:

There also used to be a lot less gold in the market. You can make 1 gold quite quickly in this game now even if you’re a newbie. 1g isn’t that big of a deal anymore.

My newbie friend had about 10 gold in their first couple weeks of playing just from going around doing random stuff they came across. And she was around level 20 at that point so she has plenty of time to accumulate more gold as she gets into the higher level areas and starts getting better drops and doing more profitable activities.

And how is your hypothetical newbie doing with skillpoints? You know, the things that go to buying actual… skills… along with traits? And, which have been overall reduced since the beginning of the game?

If this newbie is swimming in skill points, give me his secret.

I dislike the gold cost but can live with it… as a leveled veteran. The skill point cost, on the other hand, that is both often forgotten in these discussions and much harder to meet than the gold.

PookieDaWombat.6209:

Also, please let us know how this newbie is liking the idea of buying traits/obtaining through tasks once they’ve spent their gold on armor/runes/sigils/accessories and have rolled another alt or 2 and need to do it all over for them.

We’ll wait.

My actual newbie friend, unlike the hypothetical newbie you’re all advocating for, doesn’t care about any of that stuff yet. Because she is a newbie.

The trait unlocks annoy VETERANS. WE the VETERANS want a little bit of change in how the traits are unlocked for OUR alts.

The new unlocks system doesn’t affect newbies because they are TOO NEW. They’ve got plenty of other stuff to learn about the game. And in the case of my friend, the leveling system seems to be helping her learn about the game in paced increments without overwhelming her.

This is not about newbies. It’s about veterans. Please keep the arguments about how the trait system affects veterans. There are plenty of valid arguments about how the trait system inconveniences veterans.

Your friend is just as hypothetical, with out a name that we can verify in game and keep tabs on, everything you say about “her” is just make believe. But go ahead and please keep referring to your imaginary friend to make your point.

Edited to add this affects all players new and old. Who are you to say in a thread about the entire new trait system that people are only allowed to bring up arguments about vets and not new players.

tofumon.5924:

Bernie.8674:

I started playing after this change took place so I never got to benefit from the original trait system. I posted details of my experiences early in the thread, but suffice it to say that I found the system to be extremely confusing and cumbersome. Now that I’m familiar with it, it’s not as confusing, but it’s still extremely cumbersome.

How many traits do you have unlocked now? Did you stop after you finished enough for what you had in mind, or did you want to unlock more so you could get traits to “experiment” with?

On my main character I’ve unlocked most traits simply because I got 100% map completion and am gradually making my way through all the dungeons. There are still some traits that I haven’t unlocked ankitten ot likely to ever unlock (because I don’t PvP and my server tends to neglect the camps in WvW). If I am ever told that I absolutely need a certain trait (Frost Spirit, for instance) I might actively seek it, if it’s not too much trouble. Otherwise I just pony up the cash.

On my alts I simply don’t bother. Once I hit level 80 I often park them by node hubs like the cluster of trees in Malchor’s Leap. The cost of gathering all the traits that would be required to make them interesting in the end game is simply too daunting. Thankfully I still have a couple of classes to level. At the rate things are going I fully expect to have burned out on this game within the year. Jumping puzzles, dungeons, and zergs just aren’t my thing.

Mo Mo.1947:

Well I have a friend playing GW2 who has never played a computer game before and she’s doing quite well. I thought I would have to hold her hand through the game but she keeps leveling up and making progress without me around.

That’s because they nerfed all the low level mobs so you no longer need traits. How many traits has she unlocked without you around?

Guhracie.3419:

And then I think of how duplicitous it was to emphasize the quote below in the blog post about traits, rather than relaying that the tiers being unlocked for free is utterly meaningless, and there’s no way to dive in when you don’t have any traits.

Once you reach the appropriate level, we want you to be able to dive right into the system and start playing around with it, so you’ll unlock each tier for free!

The hilarious thing about this is that it really calls attention to how bad the system actually is. At level 30 I get this message telling me that Adept traits are unlocked and then I look at my trait interface only to discover that I have two traits unlocked, neither of which are in the lines that I’ve invested in. That message just pours salt in the wound.

Mo Mo.1947:

My newbie friend had about 10 gold in their first couple weeks of playing just from going around doing random stuff they came across. And she was around level 20 at that point so she has plenty of time to accumulate more gold as she gets into the higher level areas and starts getting better drops and doing more profitable activities.

This lasts until you get your crafting skills into the 400s and realize that you have a choice between spending an hour to farm the mats to craft a single item or spending 2-3 gold to buy those same mats. At that point she can decide wether to blow all her gold on traits or crafting.

Bernie.8674:

Guhracie.3419:

And then I think of how duplicitous it was to emphasize the quote below in the blog post about traits, rather than relaying that the tiers being unlocked for free is utterly meaningless, and there’s no way to dive in when you don’t have any traits.

Once you reach the appropriate level, we want you to be able to dive right into the system and start playing around with it, so you’ll unlock each tier for free!

The hilarious thing about this is that it really calls attention to how bad the system actually is. At level 30 I get this message telling me that Adept traits are unlocked and then I look at my trait interface only to discover that I have two traits unlocked, neither of which are in the lines that I’ve invested in. That message just pours salt in the wound.

That message is why I’m not fully prepared to accept the blog post about the new daily and monthly changes at face value. I just really don’t trust them to implement good systems anymore.

Indeed when the “new” pvp was announced I saw people posting enthousiastic posts.
I did not answer but was thinking: “eh guys, do not be over-enthousiastic, few months ago they modified the trait system which was certainly very nice on paper and when announced”.

In the daily/monthly announcement we can read something like: “do not worry we have thought about everything”’ … Yeah, for the trait system too you thought about everything, right ?

Additionally, while we complain here since, what, 8 months ?, we get lots of new things – new episodes of the story, new pvp, new daily/monthly, new gem UI (which was broken but quickly repaired-hence, this is their income – but what for this ?
I know it is different teams etc … but can’t some people of one team help the other ?

I mean will Anet break every piece of the game one after the other ? What about repairing the 1st one before tackling the next one ?

Imarion

I almost feel ANet are like the agents in The Matrix. They believe that people being in a place that’s too good will make them unhappy. That’s the best analogy I can think of for what they end up constantly doing….. hey look we gave you this… (mumblemumblebuttookawytwootherthingswhileyouwerentlookingmumblemumble). Can’t have us being too happy?

I was so excited to find out retraits would be free. Had I know it would be at the cost it has been, I would WAY rather pay the few silver to respec than have the system as it is now. I am NOT happy with the trade off. At all.

Imarion.1650:

Indeed when the “new” pvp was announced I saw people posting enthousiastic posts.
I did not answer but was thinking: “eh guys, do not be over-enthousiastic, few months ago they modified the trait system which was certainly very nice on paper and when announced”.

In the daily/monthly announcement we can read something like: “do not worry we have thought about everything”’ … Yeah, for the trait system too you thought about everything, right ?

Additionally, while we complain here since, what, 8 months ?, we get lots of new things – new episodes of the story, new pvp, new daily/monthly, new gem UI (which was broken but quickly repaired-hence, this is their income – but what for this ?
I know it is different teams etc … but can’t some people of one team help the other ?

I mean will Anet break every piece of the game one after the other ? What about repairing the 1st one before tackling the next one ?

Imarion

^^This.

Not only does the implementation of whatever Anet announced often suck, but the trait debacle has taught me that, no matter how bad it is, there is a solid chance that they will not fix it.

It seems that the only way they will fix things is if it hits their bottom line, like the gem exchange.

I really wish they had reset everyone’s traits rather than grandfathering. If it had happened to everyone rather than trickling in as people rolled and leveled alts over time, the screaming just might have been loud enough to force Anet to do something.

I’m starting to think the whole idea behind merging forums was to get this thread to sink to the very last page.

Really now….
Over 3.3k Posts and still we’re relatively in the same place we were at the start?

I guess they won’t do anything until their profits take a hit. Just stop buying gems with cash until they fix what they have broken. Just like the gem-exchange fiasco. You think they made the “custom” option because they realized they made a mistake? No, they made it because people went berserk with anger and it reached various gaming websites. They got panicked about their profit and had a fix in about – what was it, two weeks?

This, on the other hand, doesn’t make enough noise to be really considered as a problem. This thread has been running for 8 months with players actually making great suggestions as to how to fix it. The only response we got was a Rep/Dev telling us “tl;dr plux summary k lolz” and doing nothing about it.

Oh, and apperantly they have been “looking into it” for 3 months now:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Game-Updates-Traits/page/38#post4318990

Bernie.8674:

tofumon.5924:

Bernie.8674:

I started playing after this change took place so I never got to benefit from the original trait system. I posted details of my experiences early in the thread, but suffice it to say that I found the system to be extremely confusing and cumbersome. Now that I’m familiar with it, it’s not as confusing, but it’s still extremely cumbersome.

How many traits do you have unlocked now? Did you stop after you finished enough for what you had in mind, or did you want to unlock more so you could get traits to “experiment” with?

On my main character I’ve unlocked most traits simply because I got 100% map completion and am gradually making my way through all the dungeons.

Ah, gotcha. I started right before this trait update so I only have 1 character grandfathered in right now, and I’m considering making a new character but collecting traits sounds like a pain. Did you have to do a lot of waiting around for event chains to start, champions to spawn, etc.? I don’t actually mind doing map completion THAT much because at least there’s always the next heart/POI/vista/skill point on the map to go for, but waiting around for things to happen that might not happen is one thing I CANNOT tolerate.

I hate the trait system. It forces players to look up a meta build, go unlock those skills only and never change anything. There isn’t any incentive to actually buy new traits to experiment or unlock the rest. Why when I can just look up a meta build and use that.

It doesn’t allow any experimentation and only makes cookie cutter builds more prevalent.

Eric.6109:

I guess they won’t do anything until their profits take a hit. Just stop buying gems with cash until they fix what they have broken. Just like the gem-exchange fiasco. You think they made the “custom” option because they realized they made a mistake? No, they made it because people went berserk with anger and it reached various gaming websites. They got panicked about their profit and had a fix in about – what was it, two weeks?

This, on the other hand, doesn’t make enough noise to be really considered as a problem. This thread has been running for 8 months with players actually making great suggestions as to how to fix it. The only response we got was a Rep/Dev telling us “tl;dr plux summary k lolz” and doing nothing about it.

Oh, and apperantly they have been “looking into it” for 3 months now:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Game-Updates-Traits/page/38#post4318990

There are many of us who haven’t bought gems because of the changes to traits. The problem is that a lot of players are veterans who only did a single novelty run-through of the system and had enough gold and skill scrolls on hand that it didn’t seem terribly cumbersome. The forum would’ve exploded if they hadn’t grandfathered anyone in. It would’ve made the gem conversion thing seem like a friendly walk in the park. But because a lot of people weren’t inconvenienced by the changes immediately, it sort of dampened the outcry. I mean, I didn’t really get around to the changes until about a month after the feature patch even hit.

Maybe there is hidden ‘’reply 10,000 times and we’ll start reading this thread’’ competition going on with Anet, you know, same kind of kitten that’s normal with social media stuff these days.

8 months later same kitten.

This trait system is a great idea, but poorly executed.

I just got my toon to level 70 and trying to unlock my traits. But there’s no flow to the traits. I have to go all over the map and breaking my rhythm.

Is it too much to ask for Anet to bind traits to multiple zones and events? That way while I’m unlocking and exploring all of Ascalon, Shiverpeaks, or Maguuma I can unlock my traits with more of a flow.

To be honest, I just don’t know about this trait system. I like the idea of doing all these events to unlock my trait. But at the same time, it makes all the work I spent exploring zones I feel less satisfying.

I may just buy the traits.

GuzziHero.5104:

I solved my problem. On my main account, I simply deleted all non grandfathered characters. Thats what Anet wants, right? Less choice disguised as more choice.

My second account only has 3 characters, all non grandfathered. I just wont bother to play them, or spend money to buy gems for them until this is sorted.

I’m contemplating doing this. Or just parking them at nodes, as Bernie mentioned previously.

For the sake of comparison, folks, my 11 level 80 characters with access to all of their traits cost me a total of 28g60s.

It costs more now to unlock a single character’s traits than it cost me to unlock 11 of them prior to April with the tier books. And, as always, that’s not even including the cost in skill points.

How is that reasonable?

Guhracie.3419:

Eric.6109:

I guess they won’t do anything until their profits take a hit. Just stop buying gems with cash until they fix what they have broken. Just like the gem-exchange fiasco. You think they made the “custom” option because they realized they made a mistake? No, they made it because people went berserk with anger and it reached various gaming websites. They got panicked about their profit and had a fix in about – what was it, two weeks?

This, on the other hand, doesn’t make enough noise to be really considered as a problem. This thread has been running for 8 months with players actually making great suggestions as to how to fix it. The only response we got was a Rep/Dev telling us “tl;dr plux summary k lolz” and doing nothing about it.

Oh, and apperantly they have been “looking into it” for 3 months now:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Game-Updates-Traits/page/38#post4318990

There are many of us who haven’t bought gems because of the changes to traits. The problem is that a lot of players are veterans who only did a single novelty run-through of the system and had enough gold and skill scrolls on hand that it didn’t seem terribly cumbersome. The forum would’ve exploded if they hadn’t grandfathered anyone in. It would’ve made the gem conversion thing seem like a friendly walk in the park. But because a lot of people weren’t inconvenienced by the changes immediately, it sort of dampened the outcry. I mean, I didn’t really get around to the changes until about a month after the feature patch even hit.

Yeah, but it sucks. It actually means that we no longer consider ourselves as the “player base” but as the “customer base”. It shouldn’t be like that :<

Few times I tried to unlock ones in WvW. I have managed to successfully do it on 1 but have difficulty on the other character. You have to sneak past mobs, roamers and freaking zergs to get there. Start assisting camp when all of a sudden smacked dead by some thief from another server. Waypoint and try to get back only to find that now that camp has been taken by other server. WTG Afail, love your work in how you placed unlocking traits. Think I’ll just go back to pve for now and come back to this bs later.

Eric.6109:

Yeah, but it sucks. It actually means that we no longer consider ourselves as the “player base” but as the “customer base”. It shouldn’t be like that :<

No, we don’t. Customers are respected.

BOOM! HEADSHOT!!!

For the first time, i’m levelling a new character through this system. This guardian started at 20 with a birthday scroll, and leveled up through open world pve, being 55 at the moment.

Like some other posters above, i actually like the idea of unlocking ‘stuff’ through content. Sort of Elite skill hunting in GW1. But the current implementation feels cheap. Gaining access to all the traits seems to basically require world completion coupled with a vast amount of fully completed chains of events. This is probably not something that i can see myself doing too many times.

Then, during the levelling itself, traits feel like “that toy you’ll get when you’re 80”. I have some points to spend, but all of 4 or 5 traits unlocked at best, most of them useless to my open world pve guardian. So here i am, picking a minor trait when i get a point, and forgetting about traits until the next point. There is no trait building at all, and that feels sad. Well, i guess a new player won’t miss it, but having raised a fair few characters to 80 before that, it’s one more “preparing for fun” barrier. I used to look forward to level 60 as it was opening a lot of the class customisation options, but this is now gone. At 60 i’ll just have one more point for minor traits.

In order not to throw the baby out with the bath water, i’d revamp the unlock system so that:
- each trait line rank is unlocked in bulk: “do X to unlock Adept Valor traits”.
- a number of unlock options are available, catering for the “play as you want” idea : “unlock Adept Virtues through: 100% completion of zone X, OR pve event sequence Y OR wvw event Z”.

Ok, how about this:

How many people, like myself, would be FAR less annoyed at the trait changes if:

All (1) traits were unlockable in city zones (say… Gain 10 POIs, Visit every racial city, view 10 vistas, Visit Lions Arch, Speak to 10 NPCs)
(2) in 1-5 zone events. (1 line in each of the starter areas)
(3) in 6-10 zones. (as above)
(4) Complete first part of PS (1 trait line per ‘episode’)
(5) 11-15 zones.
(6) 16-20 zones.
(7) Complete second part of PS
(8) 21-25 zones.
(9) 25-40 zones.
(10) Complete third part of PS
(11) 40-60 zones.
(12) 61-80 zones.
(13) As no, temple zones etc.

Alternatively, if Anet HAS to force us into WvWvW, make alternatives for WvWvW players such as ‘capture X keep in Red/Blue/Green Borderlands’ etc.

This would, in my opinion, give a better sense of progression. You could still ignore traits you didn’t need or want by just… ignoring those events. But you would get more of a sense of learning as you gained experience, in my opinion.

Screw this. Trying to find my love for GW2 again but the new PS and Silverwastes are just leaving me angry.

Insta ganking wild mobs, and everything now set to Ascended level gear means that those of us with ‘normal’ exotics are now totally outclassed. If I am struggling like this on a Warrior, what the hell would I do on my Engineer?

Sorry that this post is off topic. Just totally demoralised now.

GuzziHero.5104:

Eric.6109:

Yeah, but it sucks. It actually means that we no longer consider ourselves as the “player base” but as the “customer base”. It shouldn’t be like that :<

No, we don’t. Customers are respected.

BOOM! HEADSHOT!!!

I’m now dead inside :<

I think I just realized the thing that has actually upset me most about this trait problem, but more importantly the response to it.

Sure, I could probably spend an inordinate amount of time…my time…listing out each trait in each class and suggest a new method of hunting it down/obtaining it that would be more level appropriate, fun, and still allow people to gain traits throughout the world. I could come up with a better pricing scheme, or even both of those. The problem here and and what upsets me so much is that at the end of the day Anet unleashed this on us and now is basically crowd sourcing the fix for their broken system. Free labor/think tank to fix something that wasn’t that broken to begin with. Would it honestly have killed you all to just make the books cost a little more, admit you wanted it to be a bit more of a gold sink, and give us the re-spec ability? Would it have been so bad to make us hunt JUST for the new traits? Instead you roll out something that obviously saw VERY little QA and wonder why your player base is so upset/shrinking/not dropping more money on gems.

Do we need to hit page 70 before we get any hint of an update? Are we going to see anything for this on the 13th of January? Yes or No? Are we going to see any movement on this by the one year anniversary of this update? Yes or No?

Can we get something other than a platitude?

PookieDaWombat.6209:

I think I just realized the thing that has actually upset me most about this trait problem, but more importantly the response to it.

Sure, I could probably spend an inordinate amount of time…my time…listing out each trait in each class and suggest a new method of hunting it down/obtaining it that would be more level appropriate, fun, and still allow people to gain traits throughout the world. I could come up with a better pricing scheme, or even both of those.

this was actually done several times in this thread. players even tried to come up with solutions that would require the very least of effort from a.net.

PookieDaWombat.6209:

The problem here and and what upsets me so much is that at the end of the day Anet unleashed this on us and now is basically crowd sourcing the fix for their broken system. Free labor/think tank to fix something that wasn’t that broken to begin with. Would it honestly have killed you all to just make the books cost a little more, admit you wanted it to be a bit more of a gold sink, and give us the re-spec ability? Would it have been so bad to make us hunt JUST for the new traits? Instead you roll out something that obviously saw VERY little QA and wonder why your player base is so upset/shrinking/not dropping more money on gems.

Do we need to hit page 70 before we get any hint of an update? Are we going to see anything for this on the 13th of January? Yes or No? Are we going to see any movement on this by the one year anniversary of this update? Yes or No?

Can we get something other than a platitude?

as you can see from a.net’s replies (or lack there of) in this thread, this subject holds no interest to them. at first they wanted summary of a thread that could’ve been read in a week or so, fish out the good ideas (or even easier: pick one of the ready-made solutions to the problem) and be done with it. but like I’ve said – this hasn’t caused enough noise for them to admit mistake like in the gem-conversion incident.

even after players took a leap of faith and posted again their ideas in a clear & ordered fashion, all we got was another a.net representative telling us that the issue is being “looked into”. the more i think about it the more boggled my mind becomes. how incompetent do you have to be to not notice a thread of this size, that you only look into it way after it passed the 2000 posts mark? and even then – you reply in the most vague and unhelpful way. not even a “yes, we are working on a fix”.

and to answer your final question: i want to believe it’ll be fixed by the end of the year, but I’m not holding my breath. just accept the fact that the only customisation your character has is which utility skills you use.

Oh believe me Eric, I know all of that. I was one of the vets that jumped in to test/try this new system when it was dropped on us and I was right in here in the beginning with suggestions. I’ve just grown tired of the rehashing and the playing nice. I’ve grown tired of being ignored. Sadly, I’ve grown tired of this game.

I’d hoped they could at least deliver a living story that would engage me/challenge me, but instead its done the opposite.

Oh well.

I’ve never known a company to do such a fine job of pushing customers away until now. sigh

its probably because there are more grandfathered players than post-change players. I’m guessing that the ratio is highly in favour of the grandfathered ones, while most new-players quit the game at a certain point and those who last (like me) are just too few to get them to do anything.

a list of hand picked comments in this thread by a.net. we can look at it as a time-line of sorts. i have *quoted * various lines i thought to be of interest.

8 months ago: thread starts with request for feedback by CC Danicia

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Game-Updates-Traits/first#post3900875

Please do not create duplicate posts, as it makes it more difficult for us to gather your feedback in a timely and organized manner. Thank you for your understanding.

3 months or so later, le wild dev appears, giving us a text-wall and basically saying nothing:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Game-Updates-Traits/page/41#post4358626

If you all list out the most offensive ones here we would be happy to look into changes given that we have already done so in the past when we switch many of the poorly placed map complete adept tier traits among a few other changes

Guild Wars 2 is a game that is going to continue to evolve and it will be because of your feedback and our efforts so do not get discouraged from posting feedback and be patient with change and I hope we will reward that patience.

he later came back to tell us how super-cool and useful we are:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Game-Updates-Traits/page/43#post4359121

[quote][quote][quote][quote]

tofumon.5924:

Bernie.8674:

tofumon.5924:

Bernie.8674:

I started playing after this change took place so I never got to benefit from the original trait system. I posted details of my experiences early in the thread, but suffice it to say that I found the system to be extremely confusing and cumbersome. Now that I’m familiar with it, it’s not as confusing, but it’s still extremely cumbersome.

How many traits do you have unlocked now? Did you stop after you finished enough for what you had in mind, or did you want to unlock more so you could get traits to “experiment” with?

On my main character I’ve unlocked most traits simply because I got 100% map completion and am gradually making my way through all the dungeons.

Ah, gotcha. I started right before this trait update so I only have 1 character grandfathered in right now, and I’m considering making a new character but collecting traits sounds like a pain. Did you have to do a lot of waiting around for event chains to start, champions to spawn, etc.? I don’t actually mind doing map completion THAT much because at least there’s always the next heart/POI/vista/skill point on the map to go for, but waiting around for things to happen that might not happen is one thing I CANNOT tolerate.

On my main I ignorantly farmed champions in Cursed Shore because the web sites I looked into suggested that this was the fastest way to farm ancient bones and I was under the (false) impression that I needed them to craft a “necessary” item that now escapes me. For that reason I was able to get it on all the events there and unlock a bunch of traits. On my other characters I probably won’t bother. I’m getting one of each class to 80 just so I can get a feel for how they’re played, but I doubt I will trait up any of them unless one of them turns out to be really fun to play. The traits are unnecessary for most content anyway. I don’t know exactly how many traits my main character has unlocked at the moment. There are only one or two builds I ever use, so I haven’t exactly gone out of my way to get the other traits. If ArenaNet was hoping to encourage more experimentation, they’ve failed miserably. Guild Wars 1 was head-and-shoulders above Guild Wars 2 in this regard (and in most other regards as well, to be honest).

Eric.6109:

its probably because there are more grandfathered players than post-change players. I’m guessing that the ratio is highly in favour of the grandfathered ones, while most new-players quit the game at a certain point and those who last (like me) are just too few to get them to do anything.

I still have two non-80 grandfathered alts — a warrior in the 60s and a necro in the 30s.

My NPE ele, mentioned several times in this thread, was created just before NPE hit, but well after the trait system redesign. Leveling her was an eye-opening experience, and I’ll never look at anet the same again.

Months of silence, then we have what looks like some positive steps towards resolution, possibly even seeing it as Anet recognising there s a need to change things (as they said, some incremental changes while they look for ways to revamp the system again), followed by some plaudits about how great and valuable our feedback is, all without any movement towards changing this system in response to feedback, or an information giving real hope that a change is coming.

So Anet, I want to be honest with you, seemingly more honest than you can bring yourself to be with us. I would like to say that I feel like a valued and respected customer, I fear doing so will destroy my last functioning sarcasm detector. 8 months. Over that now. That is how long this farce has been going on. And for the first months since it started, and the last ones, there has been nothing. Nothing in the way of substantive post. You can’t acknowledge i anything is going on because of your policy, and I truly believe that policy is only there so you don’t have to admit you are doing precisely nothing about it.

You are truly disrespectful to your customers. Not only do you force this change, and others on us, you only seem to care when it can tarnish your reputation with the big sites, as evidenced by them getting word of changes to the hated change to the gem exchange system, a clear hour or more before you bothered to tell us. We learned that a hated system was getting a change not by your communication with us, but by your communication with the gaming sites who reported the outcry. I took from that way of doing things that you care more for your image than your customers.

You are too pre-occupied with moving forwards, and as such do not have the time to stop and fix the issues that you created along the way. This isn’t a small graphical glitch that can be safely overlooked. You effect major change to a core system of the game, and introduced several other huge features, and pretty much the day after those features were thrust upon us, you go off on an exodus for months, all but abandoning us for the China launch. In some ways understandable. Yu of course need to spend a lot of time on a new launch to a new region, but to all but vanish for months was inexcusable.

You only give a few weeks warning of major changes, and as demonstrated in your blurb for this change, you don’t give the full story. Ideas that you make sound great on paper fail badly at the execution, and then you leave them to fester.

What you need to remember, Anet, is that many, not all of cours,e but many players continue to support your game through buying gems. They are still a source of revenue after the box/digital key purchase, and surely they can often be a more stable form of income than new players. But to maintain that interest, ot only do you need to produce content for them to buy with gems (you are VERY good at that on the whole. Seems an area that will directly impact your finances has nothing to fear), you also need to maintain the game to a degree where people are happy to support the game. Speaking personally, afte the trait system introduction I continued to buy gems. I was sure that, because of lack of a public realm, it is easy for some oversights to occur in development, and as such the game can often be a form of beta for new systems. Which is fine, given the model, and ultimately if something was overlooked, it can be adjusted. I purchased gems in good faith of that. I have purchased a good number of skins, and have the full 64 character slots. If honest, i do not, even now regret those purchases. But I know that my purse-strings are now forever closed to you. Certainly while you neglect the game and its players.

I’ve gone from playing several hours a day, to hardly playing at all. The amount I played in a day is now roughly what I play in a week, and if honest, that interest is still dropping. Not because I don’t think the game is generally good. i really think it is still a good game. I no longer think it is a great game, but still good. But I don’t feel valued as a player or a customer anymore. I don’t feel you want to listen to not me as an individual, but a substantial group of the playerbase as a whole. Babies have been conceived and born in the time from the introduction in the trait system until now. I can no longer recommend this game to friends.

Tomorrow comes a revamp of the daily/monthly system. It looks fantastic. It looks as promising a change to the game as the trait system changes appeared in your puff-piece of a blog over 8 months ago. But instead of being excited, I’m wondering what the catch is. What is it that you aren’t quite telling us. Its a sad time when something that should be fun,a nd exciting, and great for new player and veteran alike is thought about with suspicion and not excitment.

Am I being overly critical or disrespectful in this post? I don’t know. i’d certainly try more for respectful than critical here, but I wonder why i should try and be respectful as well. I do not feel respected by Anet. I’ve tried to be a positive contributor. I’m too wordy to give effective, clear feedback, but I try and make my points. I thought I posed 11 or so nice questions that had a view of being constructive, even if slightly leading.

There has been hardly any dialogue here, Anet. You have said hardly anything of value, and I know I’ve run out of patience. I’ll still throw the odd constructive, or genuine attempt to be constructive comment into this thread. Not because I have any hope of this changing. All hope of that is firmly gone by your willful ignorance of this thread. BUt I hope that this huge, 8 month+ thread here stays in the first couple of pages, as a source of embarrassment to you, and as a demonstration of how much you really value player feedback.

Prove me wrong, please, and I’ll be happy. But After so long, i have no hope of that.

Yours,

A no longer satisfied customer.

Made a second mesmer (my first character to repeat a profession) to level with my family. Thought it would be more fun than running around with them on one of my level 80s.

Just hit the point where I could pick my first trait. Exciting! Honestly it’s been a bit frustrating on my low level mesmer without any traits to make the illusions come up more often. I’d been waiting for this point, so that my mesmer would start to have smoother play. I decide on Blade Training, click, and… oh, yeah, I’d complete forgot that this character wasn’t grandfathered.

100% Lornar’s Pass!?! Really?

This is why I barely play this game any more.

Wolfheart.1879:

But I don’t feel valued as a player or a customer anymore

Long, but great post. I thought I’d boil your commentary down to one short but sweet line. It really captures the soul of this thread after all these months.

Unfortunately, this thread is full of ANET’s customers saying the exact same thing in a myriad of ways. Chris Whiteside has acknowledged the problem and hasn’t participated in communicating. Isaiah Cartwright has acknowledged the Trait system needs work, but, again, nothing has been done.

8 months of the run-around. 8 months, 3.3 thousand posts, and just under 160,000 views on a topic that has become thesis-worthy on the scale of What Not To Do for corporate/customer relations.

Regarding your media comments, I’ve brought this to the attention of two separate MMO writers. One won’t even touch the topic because he’s afraid to be critical of ANET. The other one agrees wholeheartedly with the general sentiment here and has stopped making alts as well until it gets fixed, but finds the sheer mass of this feedback thread to be too much to go through to write about. I say keep sending emails to writers. Maybe someone will pick the story up.

Illysharia.7286:

Wolfheart.1879:

But I don’t feel valued as a player or a customer anymore

Long, but great post. I thought I’d boil your commentary down to one short but sweet line. It really captures the soul of this thread after all these months.

Unfortunately, this thread is full of ANET’s customers saying the exact same thing in a myriad of ways. Chris Whiteside has acknowledged the problem and hasn’t participated in communicating. Isaiah Cartwright has acknowledged the Trait system needs work, but, again, nothing has been done.

8 months of the run-around. 8 months, 3.3 thousand posts, and just under 160,000 views on a topic that has become thesis-worthy on the scale of What Not To Do for corporate/customer relations.

Regarding your media comments, I’ve brought this to the attention of two separate MMO writers. One won’t even touch the topic because he’s afraid to be critical of ANET. The other one agrees wholeheartedly with the general sentiment here and has stopped making alts as well until it gets fixed, but finds the sheer mass of this feedback thread to be too much to go through to write about. I say keep sending emails to writers. Maybe someone will pick the story up.

ditto here, very well put…. I am amazed that this trait system is still in place. A-net bring back the trait system the way it was before you brought the grind. Such a disappointment after how well and long run GW1 was..

Illysharia.7286:

8 months of the run-around. 8 months, 3.3 thousand posts, and just under 160,000 views on a topic that has become thesis-worthy on the scale of What Not To Do for corporate/customer The other one agrees wholeheartedly with the general sentiment here and has stopped making alts as well until it gets fixed, but finds the sheer mass of this feedback thread to be too much to go through to write about. I say keep sending emails to writers. Maybe someone will pick the story up.

Tell him it’s so bad, that he can actually just pick one page at random to find reasons why the new system is bad and ways to fix it, even in a way that wishes to help anet(!) to implement it how they actuly meant it to be. I don’t know an reporters. I’ll try posting some stuff on gamespot FB page and see where it goes.

Let’s make this happen! Folks, go on Twitter, facebook or whatever and get attention to this thread. Anet themselves have “told” us that nothing changes unless enough noise is made. We want this to change, right? Let’s start making some noise.

I started with the following comment on their FB page:
https://m.facebook.com/GuildWars2/photos/a.135044094208.103264.114036714208/10152657569199209/?type=1&ref=bookmark

“Before you guys get excited, take a look at this thread. It regards the terrible traits system. Over 3000 useful comments with ideas and alternatives and over 150000 views. It is running for 8months now, but Anet will do nothing to address the problem or the community. If you care about this game, help raising awareness to this Anet-made fiasco. They have shown in the past that they will only act upon public interest (remember the gem exchange?) so let’s get that public interested!!!
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Game-Updates-Traits/page/68 "

In the past 2 years (& 4 months), I’ve spent a lot of money on this game. Oh well, I’ll just have to spend my money on something else.