Guild Wars 2

I just came back from a year long sabbatical and I rolled both a thief and a warrior because my 80 mesmer isn’t really the type of gameplay for me. I heard about the new trait system and was stoked to find out you could change it on the fly.

But everything else about it, literally…. is a gigantic clusterkitten mistake that will drive players away in droves. When I was a new player, the 3 gold fee was ALL my gold, excepting a few coppers. It was pretty expensive and I tried to game the TP to scrounge up enough $ but it took time, the low level mats sell for peanuts.

And NOW…. it puts everything so far out of a new players reach, New players do NOT have a giant backlog of skillpoints that vets have. My 80 only has about 20 at the moment. And I think a whole lot of the newbies are just going to go, “Well, screw it. Can’t afford it, I’m rolling with no traits.” Or very very few, I believe, Even now, after I have at least one 80, I still don’t have nearly enough gold to unlock my 2 characters traits. Which just means they will get the traits that they want/need when they reach max level. This cannot be what you wanted Anet?? Absolutely no experimentation? Look up a meta build and pick the few that you need and leave the rest. Or is it only about the gold buying?

I just did a few solo unlocks because there was not a single person on the 5 maps I’ve tried that will help you with a meta event or a tough mob. My thief is squishy as hell, two vets turn me into paste in a heartbeat. I shudder to think what ele’s must have to go through.

Plus forcing pvp players to pve, and vice versa is only going to lead to kittened off players on both sides. And I have yet to see the inside of any dungeon because it’s impossible to get a story mode going.

Why, did they think, for one SECOND, that this was going to be well received by the players? New players are going to have their kitten handed to them over and over until they throw up their hands and quit. I really and truly love this game, my old computer runs it pretty well and the graphics look great. I spend real money on this game. And I’m quitting because this is unacceptable and their complete radio silence is most likely proof positive that this is here to stay. This game is not the game that I bought. Sorry to be so overdramatic, but I’m really let down because of this. Back to Tera, Rift or WoW I guess.

Kestrell.6952:

…snip…

Why, did they think, for one SECOND, that this was going to be well received by the players? New players are going to have their kitten handed to them over and over until they throw up their hands and quit. I really and truly love this game, my old computer runs it pretty well and the graphics look great. I spend real money on this game. And I’m quitting because this is unacceptable and their complete radio silence is most likely proof positive that this is here to stay. This game is not the game that I bought. Sorry to be so overdramatic, but I’m really let down because of this. Back to Tera, Rift or WoW I guess.

Basically, lack of foresight.
(I’d personally pin that on bad management. Whether that be on the devs side or publisher side is not for me to say, but its definitey someone who doesn’t really play they game or has opted to look over shoulders of playtesters while being flicking through metrics – ps. Anet, if you want us to stop poking at the metrics vs feedback issue, stop highlighting metrics as your go to source for changes)

Even if we go back to the very start, the lack of foresight was strong.
- Throwing in ascended gear and worrying about the fallout later.
- implement fractals with everyone on individual levels (while talking about avoiding segregation)
- standing firm against lfg tool (when a lot of players wanted one) until a third party version got popular
- SSC island used for one major event then pretty much left with nout to do afterwards

Etc etc.

I guess all i can say for now is, merry xmas, and i hope any newbies getting this game for xmas aren’t instantly disappointed.

Lack of foresight is the most sanitary and politely inoffensive thing that could be said of it, while remaining correct.

For banal experiences sake, I went and power leveled a new char by crafting. Traits unlocked: 0.

I then took this character around, to unlock done traits. Never let it be said that I don’t put my feet on the road, after all.

Cumulative summary: Every bit as disappointing and frustrating as expected. There is absolutely no way I’ll ever be able to stomach nonsense that jagged.

Also, crafting doesn’t give XP write as well as it used to. How amusing that they made it pointless AND nerfed it. So, in fairness, I had to finish leveling it by being it through some EotM the past few days.

Traits unlocked by doing lots of things in EotM: 2, neither of them especially worth much.

Just tonight here, I’ve been bashing through some events, opening up world waypoints and such, scoring a few more traits.

Correction: trying to score more traits. Traits attempted: 5.

Traits acquired: 2, neither of which could bed called good by anybody.
/golfclap

God help you Anet, though I fear the magnitude of miracle required would test even the almighty.

I’d really just like to know why they changed the system, seeing as it wasn’t even attached to the NPE “simplicity” nonsense. This just makes no sense in the context of anything whatsoever with seemingly no reason for the change.

well, they assumed we like to hunt for them like elite skills in GW1, they totally forgot that traits are completely different from elite skills, screwing it up like they did.
all i asked for is flexibility so i can change the build at any time without paying for a reset, they gone overboard with that in mind…..

In another thread, someone else pointed out that there’s no system that is going to look exactly like you think it will when you suggest it, and while that’s true, I’d really like to point out that this was implemented in response to players asking to hunt down new skills in a manner reminiscent of the original guild wars. Kitteh, I’d be happy with just the new grandmaster traits requiring the hunting.

But I’d personally like to see the metrics that pertain to this system. We’re 2 weeks away from NINE MONTHS with this albatross. That’s three quarters of a year. If Anet’s hands are tied and they really are forbidden from touching trait acquisition, they bloody well need to come out and say that this is the final iteration. No more hand-waving, no more smoke and mirrors. Take the trait system out back and shoot it, if that’s to be its fate.

I am going to continue to bang this drum until something happens, even if it’s nothing, confirmed.

This is the elephant in the room, Anet’s at the pretty end petting it and feeding it cookies while the players are at the ugly end getting slowly buried in elephant dung…

And thus why it needs to remain an active thread and concern, for then they at least (and any others) who are on the pretty end can at least acknowledge that there are many upset being on the other end of things.

Well, it’s coming up over and over again as the “worst of 2014” in GW2, so at least there’s that. Although I’m not sure why it would take yet another thread about it to get some attention, I really don’t care what the actual catalyst is.

How about this idea:
Instead of just giving a specific trait when someone does one of those challenges, he gets a token, so he could choose which trait he gets.
So the idea of seeing the world and everything in it is still there (since you would have to do that for all traits) but the player would still have the option to choose which trait he would like to have.

(But I would still like to have the old system back, where you could experiment because you don’t have to go and collect them like pokémons.)

There are many ideas, suggestions, some better, some worse. However, there is a more important, astonishing and very frustrating fact: 8 months and still waiting.

bearcat.1650:

(But I would still like to have the old system back, where you could experiment because you don’t have to go and collect them like pokémons.)

I want to be the very best
Like no one ever was
To level up is my real test
To trait them is my cause

I will travel across the Mists
Searching far and wide
Each tower won to clear the lists
Hidden skills, now denied

Guild Wars 2~! Gotta trait ‘em all~! It’s true you see
That plan was a catastrophe
Guild Wars 2~! Oh, you’re a good game
But these unlocks are very lame
Guild Wars 2~! Gotta trait ’em all~! What shall we do?
Our patience will pull us through

Map complete and boss timers
Guild~! Wars~! 2~! (Gotta trait ’em all!)
Gotta trait ’em alllll!
Guild Wars 2!!

Kross.6428:

bearcat.1650:

(But I would still like to have the old system back, where you could experiment because you don’t have to go and collect them like pokémons.)

I want to be the very best
Like no one ever was
To level up is my real test
To trait them is my cause

I will travel across the Mists
Searching far and wide
Each tower won to clear the lists
Hidden skills, now denied

Guild Wars 2~! Gotta trait ‘em all~! It’s true you see
That plan was a catastrophe
Guild Wars 2~! Oh, you’re a good game
But these unlocks are very lame
Guild Wars 2~! Gotta trait ’em all~! What shall we do?
Our patience will pull us through

Map complete and boss timers
Guild~! Wars~! 2~! (Gotta trait ’em all!)
Gotta trait ’em alllll!
Guild Wars 2!!

This was awesome and a much needed bit of levity. Thank you.

Kross.6428:

bearcat.1650:

(But I would still like to have the old system back, where you could experiment because you don’t have to go and collect them like pokémons.)

I want to be the very best
Like no one ever was
To level up is my real test
To trait them is my cause

I will travel across the Mists
Searching far and wide
Each tower won to clear the lists
Hidden skills, now denied

Guild Wars 2~! Gotta trait ‘em all~! It’s true you see
That plan was a catastrophe
Guild Wars 2~! Oh, you’re a good game
But these unlocks are very lame
Guild Wars 2~! Gotta trait ’em all~! What shall we do?
Our patience will pull us through

Map complete and boss timers
Guild~! Wars~! 2~! (Gotta trait ’em all!)
Gotta trait ’em alllll!
Guild Wars 2!!

+1
I’m de-lurking just to say thank you for the laugh.

Anet demonstrates nothing to suggest they even care what anyone that isn’t themselves thinks about this.

It’s rather common in MMOs anymore. Devs seem to wind up thinking themselves social psychologists and anthropologists and social engineers when, often, they have less qualification s any of those them does a first year undergrad in any of those fields.

Changes like these are the product of absolute arrogance combined with flawed certitude derived from metrics that don’t address anything that can’t be explained to a room full of five year olds (shareholders and executives often fit right in).

So yeah, we’re stuck with this. And this NPE donkey show lays it right on the table as to how attuned Anet is to the actual experience of playing the game. Which is to say, not at all. Not even a little.

They’d be better off if all they did was read reviews of the game. Whatever their metrics are seem relevant to improving player experience only in the imaginations of those enamored by them.

Looks good on paper. Don’t even care about anything else. Lalalala, I’m Anet and I have metrics proving™ that up is down and cows are cars. To the moon with your piffling reality – my precious metrics are so beautiful that they MUST be super relevant!

Alas, they’re apparently garbage and I’m pretty certain most of us could do a better job of configuring trait acquisition if given ten minutes and maybe a scratch pad.

Example – if they want it to be an adventure to unlock traits, they should have a few freebies that are genuinely good that you just get for being the right level rather than leave you useless as a game Dev at a social engineering conference. You’re the right level? Here you go, pick your free trait for each trait line, go unlock the rest if you want more.

If they want traits to be per character unlocks, making them far less of a lame cow to unlock would be brilliant. Game s supposed to be fun, not a tedious chore no sane person on earth could look forward to.

Want there to be currency costs for unlocking traits? Leave our gold alone you grubby little skritt. Charge karma for some, maybe even PvP tokens and laurels for yet others.

So, there. Fixed it for you Anet. Make it so.

Eventually there will be less and less people doing these trait unlock events that require multiple players to success as time goes by since without new expansion or similar kind of attraction to get new players to try this game there won’t be unlimited pool of newbies that hunt traits. And I’m pretty sure altoholics use Mostly money for their 8th+ character.

Is Anet going to adjust trait system then when there’s hard to find people doing those hardest trait unlock events (then it would fit their metric theory) or just keep it same I wonder.

Fairly sure i was in a place on Orr this past weekend with someone that could unlock that trait over at Lyssa and it never got unlocked.

I’m honestly not a fan of Orr in the first place on most days.

Just saying.

So, seeing as there is actual red post activity elsewhere on these forums, can we please get a proper status update on this issue again?

Nobody actually cares about a status update. We’ve already got one from Gaile, who’s great. The problem is that Gaile isn’t a developer or anyone with the ability who can actually change this system to not suck.

We actually need developer confirmation via transparency that a new system is in the works with an explanation of what the new system is while accepting feedback on making the new system not suck as bad or more than it does now.

I do not expect any of this, but still, would like to keep this thread relevant a stain to their reputation until they actually do something and bury that unbelievable communication strategy they seem to love abiding by.

PookieDaWombat.6209:

So, seeing as there is actual red post activity elsewhere on these forums, can we please get a proper status update on this issue again?

We are in the METRIX™

There is no update.

Has anyone besides me noticed the game dynamics changing due to this? It used to be that traits were a basic part of the build for all players. Now, more and more, I’m seeing traits as an option, or ignored. I see level 80’s with legendaries and ascended weapons, not using traits.

How long before the new cry for dungeons isn’t “AP” but “Trait builds only!”?

Keysha.2815:

Has anyone besides me noticed the game dynamics changing due to this? It used to be that traits were a basic part of the build for all players. Now, more and more, I’m seeing traits as an option, or ignored. I see level 80’s with legendaries and ascended weapons, not using traits.

How long before the new cry for dungeons isn’t “AP” but “Trait builds only!”?

That’s actually a very good point, I haven’t thought of that. What a terrible scenario.

Look, I know it’s probably a nightmare for Anet to try and figure a way to fix this traits mess this has caused, but I sincerely hope they’re at least taking some of the ideas posted here into consideration. Making new characters shouldn’t be this tedious.

I’ve seen many players expressing the opinion that traits are entirely optional. The game is gutted for me right now. My holiday money went to other games. I wonder what their metrics say about the best/worst of 2014 thread.

Well, hello there.
Another day, another negative post.

So recently made a thief, bought what traits I could while on it and since they are account-bound I assumed perhaps I can buy the rest with my main(warrior) and just transfer them. But nope. Can’t buy other professions traits. So why on earth are they even account bound? Maybe if I make duplicating class…? lol, what a joke.
gg, never have been more dissapointed in a mmorpg dev than I’m in Anet.
It just screams BAD from everywhere.

I know this will probably go in the ignore section as well but this system needs an overhaul…badly. There are a number of excellent suggestions buried in this thread (thanks to everyone for that). I’m not saying it needs to be completely scrapped but for starters, the unlock requirements need resorted to be level appropriate and offer more than one way to unlock the trait (as suggested many times prior).

I had hoped to try engineer, necro and warrior but after my experience on my mesmer, I will not be buying any more character slots and no more gems with real money.

This trait system especially (and the NPE but that is a different thread) prevents me from recommending this game to friends at this time.

Seabreeze.8437:

(snip)
Look, I know it’s probably a nightmare for Anet to try and figure a way to fix this traits mess this has caused, but I sincerely hope they’re at least taking some of the ideas posted here into consideration. Making new characters shouldn’t be this tedious.

A very simple solution has been suggested… repeatedly. An NPC in one or all of the major cities that sells skill points for karma, or lets us exchange skill points on a character to scrolls usable by all our characters. Or make skill points account bound, not soulbound. Any of these would work, freeing us to buy when we want, as the skill points are the sticking point more than anything else.

Not a nightmare.

Keysha.2815:

A very simple solution has been suggested… repeatedly. An NPC in one or all of the major cities that sells skill points for karma, or lets us exchange skill points on a character to scrolls usable by all our characters. Or make skill points account bound, not soulbound. Any of these would work, freeing us to buy when we want, as the skill points are the sticking point more than anything else.

I have skill points coming out my ears; gold is my problem. Then again, maybe I’m comparatively broke because I didn’t start playing until after this new trait system went in. Most of my guild mates have 100+ gold banked with nothing to spend it on. The most I ever had was 100, and that was when I made a concerted effort to do nothing but farm so that I could grandfather into the old commander tag system. Since then my gold has stayed below 50. I have yet to max a crafting profession that goes over 400, and whatever gold isn’t going into traits is going into that. From my perspective the trait system is a gold sink that really has no effect on the portion of the playerbase that is most in need of a gold sink. If I could sell you my skill points I would gladly do so.

Guhracie.3419:

I’ve seen many players expressing the opinion that traits are entirely optional. The game is gutted for me right now. My holiday money went to other games. I wonder what their metrics say about the best/worst of 2014 thread.

That’s terrible, and what I was afraid of with this new system.

There are a bunch of professions where the traits are half the point. I mean, an elementalist without traits has a hard time doing…anything, really.

If we really do see more players considering traits ‘optional’, then PUG dungeons and fractals are going to start getting much harder just because players won’t have all the traits they need to be effective. And we won’t be able to tell if that’s why a party is having a hard time, because it’s not like we can ask people to link their build (and I wouldn’t want to open that can of worms anyway).

Also, what happens when non-traited players start complaining about content difficulty? Or new content updates. If lots of characters are running around without traits, then that has to be taken into consideration when balancing story instances and areas.

sighs

Anet, it’s almost 2015. Please tell us you’re working on the trait system fixes. Even a simple “We’re working on them, but we can’t tell you when the fixes will be ready” would work for us, just so we know you’re listening and working on it.

RyuDragnier.9476:

sighs

Anet, it’s almost 2015. Please tell us you’re working on the trait system fixes. Even a simple “We’re working on them, but we can’t tell you when the fixes will be ready” would work for us, just so we know you’re listening and working on it.

But that’s the problem – I sincerely doubt they’re listening to much on this topic, I severely doubt they’re working in anything to alter it further and this is likely how it’s going to stay unless something very dramatic and very specifically to do with this should somehow make them change course on it.

I don’t rate that as likely in even remote considerations. This sort of change reeks of design by agenda, and our happiness with it couldn’t clearly be less of a factor on that agenda than if they flat out said as much.

RyuDragnier.9476:

sighs

Anet, it’s almost 2015. Please tell us you’re working on the trait system fixes. Even a simple “We’re working on them, but we can’t tell you when the fixes will be ready” would work for us, just so we know you’re listening and working on it.

After almost 3500 replies across a thread spanning 70 pages, I doubt they would reply something legible or useful and not vague dribble, much less fix the trait system in 2015

From the “What Anet does right” thread:

Gaile Gray.6029:

[SNIP]…I know the team is keenly aware of the desire for changes to traits, and they will have something to say on that subject when plans are more firmed up.

The mind. It boggles.

Edit for clarity: This is an example of the incredibly poor communication that ANet is so stubbornly adhering to. If only they weren’t so terrified of being held accountable for their own words, they might have had something to say in this thread by now.

This is not in any way an attack on Gaile. I think she does her job well. But the idea that after all this time their plans for traits aren’t even firm enough to make a post in the traits thread about how things are coming along is — as usual — disappointing.

minbariguy.7504:

From the “What Anet does right” thread:

Gaile Gray.6029:

[SNIP]…I know the team is keenly aware of the desire for changes to traits, and they will have something to say on that subject when plans are more firmed up.

The mind. It boggles.

Edit for clarity: This is an example of the incredibly poor communication that ANet is so stubbornly adhering to. If only they weren’t so terrified of being held accountable for their own words, they might have had something to say in this thread by now.

This is not in any way an attack on Gaile. I think she does her job well. But the idea that after all this time their plans for traits aren’t even firm enough to make a post in the traits thread about how things are coming along is — as usual — disappointing.

And this sort of information should be available in a centralized location. It shouldn’t be something we’re hearing about from Reddit, from a spanish-speaking forum moderator, for example. Or something we might not have even heard about in a random thread that has no apparent link to traits. The post she quoted barely had anything to do with the trait system, in fact. It’s just… weird.

RyuDragnier.9476:

sighs

Anet, it’s almost 2015. Please tell us you’re working on the trait system fixes. Even a simple “We’re working on them, but we can’t tell you when the fixes will be ready” would work for us, just so we know you’re listening and working on it.

We have already been told that. I think the last time was on page 41 or so. For me, words no longer matter. Action is the only thing I will believe.

I remember talking about some pages ago an Anet post about how they are often too busy going forward to look back and tweak things.

And here is the living proof. I once would have taken a reassurance that something would be done at face value and waited patiently. 8 months down the line, and that naivety is well and truly gone.

I have no trust in Anet anymore, or will believe in any reassurance they give until a fix is in place. And even then my trust is broken, perhaps irreparably. While that is a purely personal belief, I doubt it is unique to me. Congratulations Anet. I think you have won the 2014 MMO Golden Ostrich Award, for services to ignorance.

Not sure that is a real award, but really should be. Would love some sort of satirical awards for the not so good things MMOs have done over the year.

There will be Anet announcement event at PAX South 24th of January with living story was just beginning – concept.

Traits, NPE… was just beginning…omg…THEY ARE AFTER THE QUAGGANS NEXT!

HEED MY Words brethren!
puts on tinfoil hat and trousers

It is reminiscent to the GW1’s skillbooks.

Here is how it works:

• Adept Traits- Any mob can drop it.
• Master Traits- Any Champion mob can drop it.
• Grandmaster Traits- Any Legendary boss can drop it.

If the character already unlocked a certain trait book, then that character will not get that trait book ever again.

Pro:

• More choices. Plus it’ll make loot tables more interesting.
• Any additions to the trait system can’t be bad.

Cons:

• It won’t revert to the old system.

So… I just finished leveling a new character to 80 after this stuff was introduced… and I have to say… I am so kittened.
Who the heck thought giving a trait for killing the champ worm on eternal battle grounds? That is never done since it has one million health and no zerg at least in the battles we have is that bored that he would go kill that one. You could have just directly said “This is a trait you need to pay for”. And getting the mercenaries on eternal battle grounds is not much better… if you want to bring people to WvW at least let them do something usefull…
And yeah thanks for introducing so many trades that can’t be done because of bugged events (could not find working map for Foulbear and Iron march champs for the last few weeks…)
Oh and while I enjoy doing some map completing (have done 100% with four characters) it is no fun at all if you force me to do certain maps just for my traits…
And of course it is also fun if you go to Mount Malstrom for the under-water asura champ… and of course there are no people there… I asked in map chat no one answered… after 30mins in the lfg I managed to find 3 people for it… so much fun…
And then there were these traits which unlocked for example at Level 60 and told me to go to Frostgorge…
To sum it up… I hope you will never bring new classes the new way of unlocking traits makes me angry enough to not wanting to level another character -.-
(And yes I know I could have bought them all but I am always broke because I enjoy spending my money on other stuff…)
Not happy at all with the change.

I like this idea, and that it has roots in GW1 too!! +1

Would be better to revert to the old system, which was better anyway.

@Moon – I think them bringing a new class or race is the very thing that will bring this whole trait issue to the forefront.
There are multitudes of veterans that haven’t created new characters or alts. There are plenty of new players that think a single build is all they have to trait hunt for and at most a second back up build worth of traits.
However, if Anet introduces a new race or class there will be a lot of players that will be forced to do this trait hunt or buy them. Either way it will introduce a lot more players to the current system.
PS – I agree with your frustrations and have voiced suggestions and opinions and pleas in the past. I have stepped away from posting here except for the occasional one in order to give new people their time in the thread.
Back to lurking again.

+1
Please put this in the trait thread. I don’t recall reading this suggestion (though I may be wrong as I try to remember all posts in 70 pages) <- no sarcasm

EDIT: thread merge and wanted to point out this post is directed towards runeblade’s suggestion.

I’d get behind this, if the trait books were universal and when you got one, you could unlock any trait of its value or lower of your choosing.

Xillllix.3485:

Would be better to revert to the old system, which was better anyway.

Nope, would rather not lose new Masteries which were added so we can have the old system back. Especially with the need to pay to change them.

That is a really good suggestion actually. Completely slipped my mind about that system being in GW1. It would even relieve a bit of stress that the new system created.

naiasonod.9265:

I’d get behind this, if the trait books were universal and when you got one, you could unlock any trait of its value or lower of your choosing.

I’d like them to be by class, such as “Master Virtues Tome” which would unlock anything in the “Virtues” line of Master rank or lower. Then make them trade-able.

Infernia.9847:

@Moon – I think them bringing a new class or race is the very thing that will bring this whole trait issue to the forefront.
There are multitudes of veterans that haven’t created new characters or alts. There are plenty of new players that think a single build is all they have to trait hunt for and at most a second back up build worth of traits.
However, if Anet introduces a new race or class there will be a lot of players that will be forced to do this trait hunt or buy them. Either way it will introduce a lot more players to the current system.
PS – I agree with your frustrations and have voiced suggestions and opinions and pleas in the past. I have stepped away from posting here except for the occasional one in order to give new people their time in the thread.
Back to lurking again.

Every char I have was created long before the trait changes and the only reason I know about it is because I read the forums. I imagine there are a large number of people who don’t read the forums and who aren’t leveling recently created chars who know nothing about this.

If it’s as bad as y’all describe and if they do make new professions/races without any changes then it should be……Interesting……to read the new threads on the forums.

The only thing I don’t like about this idea is the last thing I need is more crap in my inventory. Good thinking though.

The biggest problem with the current system is some of the Grandmaster traits are kitten near impossible to unlock in the open world. WvW Grub anyone?! Just making some of the traits more accessible in the open world would be a step in the right direction.

The bigger issue is that the current trait system doesn’t promote build variation while leveling. Traits are currently a pretty much wait until your lvl 80 thing right now which hurts the leveling experience imho.

Okay I love this idea.

runeblade.7514:

If the character already unlocked a certain trait book, then that character will not get that trait book ever again.

Why not still get it, but make them account bound so you can give them to your alts?

maddoctor.2738:

runeblade.7514:

If the character already unlocked a certain trait book, then that character will not get that trait book ever again.

Why not still get it, but make them account bound so you can give them to your alts?

To help reduce inventory clutter. It would get annoying to farm an area and keep getting these trait books when you don’t need them.