Guild Wars 2

Gaile Gray.6029:

And thanks, from me to you, for not being nasty about it, or throwing a golem-sized boulder in my direction.

You just reminded me of the promise we got from Chris Whiteside that they would introduce catapults that would shoot Asurans into enemy keeps in WvW, any progress on that?

wwwes.1398:

Gaile Gray.6029:

And thanks, from me to you, for not being nasty about it, or throwing a golem-sized boulder in my direction.

You just reminded me of the promise we got from Chris Whiteside that they would introduce catapults that would shoot Asurans into enemy keeps in WvW, any progress on that?

Yes, I want to just throw them into walls, myself. But these would work all the same anyway.

And remember, it was a promise and totally not a snarky sarcastic comment with a wink after it.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

wwwes.1398:

Gaile Gray.6029:

And thanks, from me to you, for not being nasty about it, or throwing a golem-sized boulder in my direction.

You just reminded me of the promise we got from Chris Whiteside that they would introduce catapults that would shoot Asurans into enemy keeps in WvW, any progress on that?

Yes, I want to just throw them into walls, myself. But these would work all the same anyway.

And remember, it was a promise and totally not a snarky sarcastic comment with a wink after it.

Dreams don’t come true unless you believe in them.

I want to thank Gaile for letting us know that changes are in development.

My only skepticism comes from the (many) experiences of ANet giving us one thing while taking 2 things away, or, you know… somehow trying to dress up the ugly duckling in glitter and saying “see, we totally did what you wanted isn’t it pretty?”.

My sincere hope is that what we end up with will be good for players – newbies and vets alike.

And I have to say that perhaps it’s because of the vehemence of this system littered ALL OVER the forums that we are actually getting some updates. As I have said before, the only reason this didn’t get “fixed” right away is that it really doesn’t affect all players at once. However, over the past 8 months enough players have experienced it and are finally becoming vocal about the things they don’t like about it.

No changes, that means again two more months of throwing my money onto another stuff. Majoras Mask special edition pre-order, Heroes of the Storm, and Captain Toad, welcome aboard!

I refuse to drop a cent onto GW2 until the trait system is reworked. Will check again in some weeks

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Personally I think if the devs are thinking about Traits and what to do with them . . . every time they hear about this topic they move it to the bottom of the list knowing no matter what they do it’s going to be complained about.

Even if it’s a perfect, ultimate fix which makes Traits all sunshine and roses . . . “why wasn’t this done sooner?!”.

So, no, I expect they are thinking about it. I also expect like any person, they are reluctant to touch something they tried to fix and screwed up “so horribly” there’s a seventy page thread with a lot of shouting back and forth arguing not whether it’s broken or not . . . but how broken it is.

I wouldn’t be surprised if it was a means of getting someone to quit. “You’re gonna work on Traits.” “Screw this, I’m outta here.”

This is exactly why I wasn’t sure if I should post what I did in this thread, but decided it was the best place for it. People will always complain, and traits are on the forefront of everyone’s mind, but they aren’t the only problem. Your impression of the result of the “perfect, ultimate fix” is very accurate, it’ll definitely happen, it always does. It’s the loud minority that screams and yells, and a lot of us sit back thinking it but not saying it. We’ve been burned before, many times. While the traits are the big red hot button of the moment, a lot of us have lost hope from continual disappointments, not one large change.

Gaile Gray.6029:

And thanks, from me to you, for not being nasty about it, or throwing a golem-sized boulder in my direction. I know that what I posted isn’t the substantive information you’d like to have. I can say that from all I hear it shouldn’t betoo long before there is some info we can share. I’m not saying “this week” but I’m definitely not pointing at Q2 2015!

Gregori.5807

Heh, the situation is irritating… not you.

So, no boulders your direction.

Major thumbs up. (And I can take off this heavy armor, which is so unsuited for my class. )

This is exactly why I’ve admired you since Guild Wars 1. You take it so well. You’re in the horrible position of standing between people’s poorly aimed weapons and the intended recipients of their rage, and you handle it beautifully. It’s why I don’t envy your position at all. Don’t let them get you down, Gaile. Forgive them, for they know not what they do! :P

I really do hope we hear something more specific soon, but unfortunately the latest update to other aspects of the game having basically driven my wife from even loading it up anymore coupled with the now far too long to address the traits issue has more or less lost anet 2 players. :/ Been testing out some other MMOs. Simply put, I just don’t enjoy this game anymore. The updates and forced play/money grab stuff has left too bad of a taste in my mouth. I will keep an eye out for this mythical unicorn of a traits update, but I don’t know if it will be enough for me to honestly want to spend the hours i used to spend playing the game.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Hey there,

Colin Johanson and I had a chat about this thread today. He actually brought it up because he wanted to make sure that forum members know that the dev team is very aware of the concerns that our players feel about traits, and also to let you know that the devs read and refer to this subject (and particularly this thread) quite frequently. We’ve said it before, but it remains true: Your voices are being heard and your input is valued.

We wish there was more to say today, but please take heart that this subject is part of current development team discussions and we’ll let you know more as soon as we reasonably can do so.

So many promises have been broken… but your post gives me a glimmer of hope.

Thank you for braving the hailstorm to update us!

Gaile Gray.6029:

I totally understand the skepticism that you’re expressing. It has been a long time. But I know and trust the team, and I’ve heard enough details of the plans to give me confidence that progress and improvements are actively being made.

And thanks, from me to you, for not being nasty about it, or throwing a golem-sized boulder in my direction. I know that what I posted isn’t the substantive information you’d like to have. I can say that from all I hear it shouldn’t betoo long before there is some info we can share. I’m not saying “this week” but I’m definitely not pointing at Q2 2015!

Hi Gaile, thank you for the posts.

I’m afraid I’m going to have to admit that I’m on the skeptical side. I’ve also reached a point that the length of silence on this (and to a lesser extent SAB) has been so long that simply fixing this won’t undo the damage. It’ll be a good thing when it comes, but this is now 9+ months that ANet broke their own game and ignored their customers. I won’t be leading any parades when it’s finally reversed (or whatever minor fix is fed to us).

I don’t say this to be harsh, but to give you honest feedback. It’s great that you’ve come in, and I don’t envy you at all having to be the one to do this, so genuinely thank you. But this debacle has been allowed to continue way beyond reasonable.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

there’s a seventy page thread with a lot of shouting back and forth arguing not whether it’s broken or not . . . but how broken it is.

To be honest: there are tons of suggestions how to make things better.
I only suggested stuff once, the rest of the time I told about my experiences and what I expect to be future problems (that was 1 or 2 weeks after April 15th). Simply because I think that no matter what, locking traits behind content is a really bad idea, especially if you want your players to learn your game as that ain’t gonna happen this way.

Felis Noctu.9081:

People will always complain, and traits are on the forefront of everyone’s mind

True, they will always complain but that shouldn’t be a justification for a bad idea, right?
I recently moved back to NA and was kind of surprised to find some commanders here and there who did trait related quests – that is nice. I didn’t have that on EU. Anyway, most people I’ve met didn’t bother with doing the quests but bought their traits of which they had few. It wasn’t their top priority.

That being said, I simply don’t care anymore, I was just kind of bummed to find that the trait for doing the claw island personal story quest has been removed. But I’ve gotten 3 traits from PS after level 70 now. I still don’t know what’s the logic behind it, but whatever.

Feature patch March 2015 can’t wait to see what the devs cooked up this time.

tevoro.1587:

Feature patch March 2015 can’t wait to see what the devs cooked up this time.

Is it right that I feel nothing but apprehension and dread, to consider that tentative date in this context? I feel like a kitten that’s been kicked so many times it doesn’t know how to expect anything else. They say there’ll be pettins, but I don’t believe it.

I don’t believe it at all.

Jana.6831:

Felis Noctu.9081:

People will always complain, and traits are on the forefront of everyone’s mind

True, they will always complain but that shouldn’t be a justification for a bad idea, right?

Of course not, but it’s a fact of life, especially in the western MMO market. People will always find some reason to complain. Now on the other hand, when you have several months of solid complaints at all hours of the day, it becomes less about the complaints and more about “oh… maybe we DID do something wrong”. I’d like to think they’re working on it. Hell, I haven’t even been here for most of it, and just as quick peek into the game earlier today shut me down entirely. Like so many people have said, this has gone on too long. If I was annoyed with it within a couple minutes (and I like I think I have a decent amount of patience), I have no idea how people have lasted months.

We’ve lasted by not levelling new toons, or, like myself, trying to level, feeling frustrated, and deleting those new toons before or even after hitting level 80. I mentioned in another thread that I am really, really trying to level up a human ranger and at level 52 I have ONE trait unlocked. One. And I’m doing map completions to level for the most part. So ya, mostly I just look at her on the log in screen and sigh, then choose one of my pre-April toons to play.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

~snip~

We’re getting dueling mounts.

Shhhhhhhhh….

Gregori.5807:

Heh, the situation is irritating… not you.

So, no boulders your direction.

Major thumbs up. (And I can take off this heavy armor, which is so unsuited for my class. )

Thx for remembering us.

But you might want to explain how I can put heavy armor on my Necro.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Wow.

“Please, please, please give us a status update, even if it’s only, “We’re still actively thinking about this issue and will give details when we can.”

Such a post is made. Reactions?.

“That’s not good enough.”

I still think the Mike O’Brien Gag Policy is a mistake. But, it’s moments like this that makes me think twice.

I totally get what you’re saying, Indigo, but that kind of a reaction from a handful of the who-knows-how-many people reading this thread should not — can not — be used to justify a policy of long-term customer neglect. [Not that you were doing that, mind you!]

Speaking for myself, yes, I do think some kind of statement is long overdue, but…I still love that Gaile popped in here. Though her statement was vague, we all know that it was the only kind of statement she could have made, working within the parameters set for her. And honestly…it made me feel better.

I wish I was the kind of person who could just be told “Hey, even though we may not post on a thread…EVER…trust me that we are totally reading all your feedback.” I really, really do.

But I’m not.

I need to hear occasional acknowledgements from the powers-that-be, or I get frustrated and disillusioned. I start to question why I would patronize a company that doesn’t feel inclined to even acknowledge an ongoing concern for months at a time. I start looking at other games. Games that will at least take me out to dinner and give me a nice conversation before they…oh, um, never mind about that.

I guess this is my way of saying that my predominant feelings about Gaile’s posts in this thread are appreciation and gratitude. I know not everyone will feel the same, and I am in no way telling anyone that they should. But that’s how I feel.

Thanks, Gaile. :-)

Gaile Gray.6029:

Hey there,

Colin Johanson and I had a chat about this thread today. He actually brought it up because he wanted to make sure that forum members know that the dev team is very aware of the concerns that our players feel about traits, and also to let you know that the devs read and refer to this subject (and particularly this thread) quite frequently. We’ve said it before, but it remains true: Your voices are being heard and your input is valued.

We wish there was more to say today, but please take heart that this subject is part of current development team discussions and we’ll let you know more as soon as we reasonably can do so.

The problem is, this has all been said, many months back. We still have nothing to actually show for it. You (as in Anet) can’t just say we appreciate the feedback, it is useful etc. You need to show us that it is useful. Thats the basis of rebuilding and maintaining trust. Talk is cheap. We all here should know – we’ve been talking a fair bit here

Don’t get me, or many of us wrong. We understand changes like this take time to plan, design, create, test and ultimately implement. The issue for many is that first this system was thrust upon us with little to know notice – these requirements were not a focus of the hype-making blog around them. Part of the worry is because of the, in my opinion, nonsensical communication policy, we’ll see a change eventually, but we won’t have a chance to look at the ideas before implementation. In so many things where we had advance notice, the community as a whole were able to predict with unerring accuracy both the strengths and weaknesses of upcoming features.

For me, trust in Anet’s ability to listen to its players is severely damaged. This isn’t a new issue. It is coming up to 9 months old. 9 months. A human can be conceived and born in that space of time. It is also a huge fraction of the games lifespan thus far. It isn’t unreasonable for many to believe, despite assertions to the contrary, that 9 months of such feedback means this isn’t a priority. Looking at other times where you saw a lot of negative feedback, you responded much quicker. Commander tags, for example, or the new gem exchange interface (although I maintain that that change was a result of pressure from gaming websites, not us players – hence us learning your about face from them long before we got the message from you guys)

The line that you are listening and considering works fine, for a short time after the feedback emerges. Nearly 9 months on, we are naturally more cynical. You now say it is part of current discussion. Was it part of discussion when the dev posted many moons ago, saying they saw the issues raised and found them valid, and said he was off to make the game better (not necessarily with traits, but perhaps some assumption given this was the thread he said it on). If not, why not? if it was, how come it is still a talking shop with nothing to show for it?

In all honesty, and I am truly sorry to say this, I don’t believe anything Anet says on this issue, and will not until after a change is made. My trust and belief in Anet has been torn to shreds. Torn by thrusting these changes on us then doing a vanishing act for months because of the China launch. Torn by Anet coming in to say there are issues, then riding off into the sunset with nothing else to say. Torn by the constant assertions that you listen, but then there is so little to show for it. I hardly play the game anymore. My routine is log in, collect my login reward and log out. I’m not saying that it is entirely due to this feeling. My activity in the game is somewhat cyclical, and I enjoy other games as well. But I feel the pull towards this game much less than i used to, and a part of it is the way i feel valued as a player and a customer, which is to say bordering on not at all. And this thread is the greatest example of why I feel that way.

Don’t get me wrong, I appreciate your post Gaile. Although I know I’ have a tendency to quote you from other threads and make implications on this one, i see that more as quoting Anet than you personally. I would, under most circumstances be happy to take your word on things like this. But this one issue has gone on so long, and there has been such sweeping silences followed by thus far hollowed words, that it gets beyond a joke. I would love to see a change here that is hugely positive. But past performance in changes in the last year, and the way this thread has gone give me hope thus far. Even if it does happen, I don’t know to what extent my trust will be restored, or my motivation to play.

Gaile Gray.6029:

I totally understand the skepticism that you’re expressing. It has been a long time. But I know and trust the team, and I’ve heard enough details of the plans to give me confidence that progress and improvements are actively being made.

And thanks, from me to you, for not being nasty about it, or throwing a golem-sized boulder in my direction. I know that what I posted isn’t the substantive information you’d like to have. I can say that from all I hear it shouldn’t betoo long before there is some info we can share. I’m not saying “this week” but I’m definitely not pointing at Q2 2015!

I’m not usually one for posting in the thread twice after so long, but I’ve given it more thought, and feel something else here needs to be said.

You know and trust the team, and from your view on the inside you are, perhaps understandably, confident. We however, do not know the team anymore. it becomes more and more faceless, and thus less personal. I for one believe a lot more from an individual than I do a faceless entity.

For me, my own thoughts towards Anet would be more positive, and my trust improved, if there was the conversation with us about things like this. There are bright shining moments in this thread even, the dev talking about issues they are seeing, and listening and responding to the issues we raised. That wasn’t saying a fix was going to be done immediately, or even at all in response to those few bits of feedback discussed. But it was confidence that, although changes hadn’t been made, we were actually listened to. As a piece of feedback for the future, more dev input on these matters would go a long long way.

Of course, devs are busy and all that, and they can’t talk about what they are doing or such (that is another can of worms for another day), but even just taking time to take a few of the more frequent or interesting points, and give their take on it would be enough, if started early enough, for us to think “well, Anet do care, and do understand”. Even if the dev’s view was very different to ours. I don’t expect to be right all the time, or with so many players, be catered to exclusively. Ultimately some of the minority groups will get a rougher deal sometimes, and that is largely ok, if its explained and it is unavoidable. The thing that needles is the silence. I’m happy to be argued against, I’m happy to admit I’m wrong, or perhaps that the opposite side is more right. But that takes a dialogue between two parties. With this, Anet’s silence means a conversation hasn’t taken place. Different viewpoints, not only from players experience but also developers in terms of what they can do when, or how feasible they see things from their end, can have a much more positive influence on feedback. We could have been more focused, and overall far more positive, because we would have felt more valued.

Perhaps a few points to ponder on going forward. Ultimately, as with any game that gets continuous improvements and updates, they won’t all be universally adored, and mistakes or miscalculations occur. Just that to regain and retain trust, I feel the way it has been handled here needs serious contemplation. If we knew a bit more of what you know, not necessarily the details, but was able to have some form of real dialogue with the devs, a lot of our anger, disappointment and cynicism could have been avoided.

Felis Noctu.9081:

Of course not, but it’s a fact of life, especially in the western MMO market. People will always find some reason to complain. Now on the other hand, when you have several months of solid complaints at all hours of the day, it becomes less about the complaints and more about “oh… maybe we DID do something wrong”. I’d like to think they’re working on it. Hell, I haven’t even been here for most of it, and just as quick peek into the game earlier today shut me down entirely. Like so many people have said, this has gone on too long. If I was annoyed with it within a couple minutes (and I like I think I have a decent amount of patience), I have no idea how people have lasted months.

Ok, sorry I got you wrong.
The trait changes weren’t the only thing that was changed back in april, the crit damage nerf took a lot of the heat while the trait changes weren’t obvious to most people at first – that’s why this thread is a rather silent one.
But can I be honest: I only like the account wide colour unlock and the trait reset of the april 15th patch and dislike everything else, I still do. But explaining all of this would sound like a sour kitten and well, I don’t want to sound like that and it’s a long story actually. I still love this game but the april patch is dunno, still leaving bad feelings.

Jana.6831:

Felis Noctu.9081:

Of course not, but it’s a fact of life, especially in the western MMO market. People will always find some reason to complain. Now on the other hand, when you have several months of solid complaints at all hours of the day, it becomes less about the complaints and more about “oh… maybe we DID do something wrong”. I’d like to think they’re working on it. Hell, I haven’t even been here for most of it, and just as quick peek into the game earlier today shut me down entirely. Like so many people have said, this has gone on too long. If I was annoyed with it within a couple minutes (and I like I think I have a decent amount of patience), I have no idea how people have lasted months.

Ok, sorry I got you wrong.
The trait changes weren’t the only thing that was changed back in april, the crit damage nerf took a lot of the heat while the trait changes weren’t obvious to most people at first – that’s why this thread is a rather silent one.
But can I be honest: I only like the account wide colour unlock and the trait reset of the april 15th patch and dislike everything else, I still do. But explaining all of this would sound like a sour kitten and well, I don’t want to sound like that and it’s a long story actually. I still love this game but the april patch is dunno, still leaving bad feelings.

Took the words outa my mouth.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Wow.

“Please, please, please give us a status update, even if it’s only, “We’re still actively thinking about this issue and will give details when we can.”

Such a post is made. Reactions?.

“That’s not good enough.”

I still think the Mike O’Brien Gag Policy is a mistake. But, it’s moments like this that makes me think twice.

People want to know if they are going to do something about it or not. This response has not said anything except we keep seeing this blight on the forums and we want people to know we keep seeing it. So we are still waiting for an answer to the question.

Are they ever going to do anything or is this how it is going to stay?

A truthful answer to that question will do a lot.

If the answer is this is how it is going stay, then people like me will stop posting and criticizing because we know its time to move on. Using silence to drag out hope just keeps people like me around to complain. I think it would be better for arenanet and ncsoft to be honest and just tell us.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Wow.

“Please, please, please give us a status update, even if it’s only, “We’re still actively thinking about this issue and will give details when we can.”

Such a post is made. Reactions?.

“That’s not good enough.”

I still think the Mike O’Brien Gag Policy is a mistake. But, it’s moments like this that makes me think twice.

Thing is, a lot of people aren’t asking for the former like that. Pretty much everyone is aware it’s on their minds. In one of my previous posts I even said I don’t care about a status update because in the end it only matters when we hear about the specifics of it changing before a proper reaction can be made.

What I am happy about is that a time frame was given. This means that while they can still be actively thinking about the problem, the solution is actually well into its development phase and we can expect and look forward to something. I can think of a way – or many – to fix this problem, and so can many people, for that’s what the past ~70 pages has largely consisted of. I can’t go in and actually develop a solution and just send it to the developers, though. That fact we’re there/almost there is what’s appreciated.

Glad to see people recognizing Gaile and other mods aren’t responsible for the untimely resolution. She’s great and has certainly delivered what really needed to be said with the previous set of posts made earlier today.

@ all posters that responded.

Thanks for sharing your views. I’ll cop to feeling a bit peevish about the constant negativity being expressed, especially when I know the rigors of production in high-pressure environments.

@minbariguy

Special thanks for sharing your perspective. You’ve restored some of my lost faith in the Minbari … err, humanity.

Jana.6831:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

there’s a seventy page thread with a lot of shouting back and forth arguing not whether it’s broken or not . . . but how broken it is.

To be honest: there are tons of suggestions how to make things better.
I only suggested stuff once, the rest of the time I told about my experiences and what I expect to be future problems (that was 1 or 2 weeks after April 15th). Simply because I think that no matter what, locking traits behind content is a really bad idea, especially if you want your players to learn your game as that ain’t gonna happen this way.

I don’t care if there are suggestions on how to make it better. The majority of the arguing going on here is a few people in particular talking back and forth over the same ground, with a close second of what amounts to “update plz”/“ANet don’t care” posts.

I’m sorry, I should be more accurate. I do care the suggestions are there – that shows people actually care about this topic and are still thinking about it and putting things here in the hopes they’ll get noticed rather than throwing their hands up and resorting to using the absent devs as a punching bag while apologizing to Gaile for their tone and assuring her it’s not at her in particular.

But there’s a big problem with the suggestions, and it’s so simple it’s going to make me cringe when there is some movement on this issue. There’s so many suggestions beyond “just revert it” that I know there’s going to be tons of people still ticked off THEIR favorite suggestion wasn’t used, or if none of them are.

There’s a sort of sickened fascination going on in me waiting to see that day when there is a blog post about the attempt to try fixing this problem . . . and clocking the time until the massive fireball erupts from the forum server room.

It’s going to happen. I just wonder how big it’s going to be.

IndigoSundown.5419:

@ all kittenponded.

You really need to edit that, I suppose I know what it was so use “whom” instead.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Jana.6831:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

there’s a seventy page thread with a lot of shouting back and forth arguing not whether it’s broken or not . . . but how broken it is.

To be honest: there are tons of suggestions how to make things better.
I only suggested stuff once, the rest of the time I told about my experiences and what I expect to be future problems (that was 1 or 2 weeks after April 15th). Simply because I think that no matter what, locking traits behind content is a really bad idea, especially if you want your players to learn your game as that ain’t gonna happen this way.

I don’t care if there are suggestions on how to make it better. The majority of the arguing going on here is a few people in particular talking back and forth over the same ground, with a close second of what amounts to “update plz”/“ANet don’t care” posts.

I’m sorry, I should be more accurate. I do care the suggestions are there – that shows people actually care about this topic and are still thinking about it and putting things here in the hopes they’ll get noticed rather than throwing their hands up and resorting to using the absent devs as a punching bag while apologizing to Gaile for their tone and assuring her it’s not at her in particular.

But there’s a big problem with the suggestions, and it’s so simple it’s going to make me cringe when there is some movement on this issue. There’s so many suggestions beyond “just revert it” that I know there’s going to be tons of people still ticked off THEIR favorite suggestion wasn’t used, or if none of them are.

There’s a sort of sickened fascination going on in me waiting to see that day when there is a blog post about the attempt to try fixing this problem . . . and clocking the time until the massive fireball erupts from the forum server room.

It’s going to happen. I just wonder how big it’s going to be.

Just revert it is the best and least likely answer to the problem created when a major part of the game was radically changed, despite the fact that there was absolutely nothing wrong with the existing system, for absolutely no reason what so ever.

Bellizare.5816:

Just revert it is the best and least likely answer to the problem created when a major part of the game was radically changed, despite the fact that there was absolutely nothing wrong with the existing system, for absolutely no reason what so ever.

I . . . somewhat disagree about “nothing wrong”. I already posted why.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Bellizare.5816:

Just revert it is the best and least likely answer to the problem created when a major part of the game was radically changed, despite the fact that there was absolutely nothing wrong with the existing system, for absolutely no reason what so ever.

I . . . somewhat disagree about “nothing wrong”. I already posted why.

I agree that you may disagree.

So may I amend: In my opinion, there was absolutely nothing wrong with the existing system.

I mean, who was really unhappy with it?

Bellizare.5816:

So may I amend: In my opinion, there was absolutely nothing wrong with the existing system.

I mean, who was really unhappy with it?

I’m jumping in for a sec for this one. I didn’t like paying for trait reset and did that very, very rarely. Just stayed with the trait lines I originally chose.

Other than that, I liked the old system.

Bellizare.5816:

I agree that you may disagree.

So may I amend: In my opinion, there was absolutely nothing wrong with the existing system.

I mean, who was really unhappy with it?

And I would posit the point that just because “nobody is unhappy with something” is not meaning it doesn’t need to be looked at for improvement or change. I use quotes because it’s very likely there are people who were unhappy with it, or perhaps maybe just wished there was something more to it than there was.

Sure, it worked, and it was serviceable. So is the car in my driveway, or my computer. That doesn’t mean these things cannot be made better. And attempts to do that carry a particular risk – that whatever attempts to improve it might render it non-functional at worst. But if you never take the risk of change . . . well, improvement is more a matter of fortune rather than a result of effort.

It’s just in my personal ethos: it’s better to take a chance trying to improve things, even if you might fail and make it worse. And if you do fail, then you had better do everything you can to be derned certain the second time you succeed.

wait… did someone say we;re getting dueling banjos? elementalists are finally getting a new weapon! elementalists are finally getting a new weapon!

seriously though:

[SUGGESTION] allow us to choose our minor traits as well? (the 5, 15, and 25 point traits) instead of setting them in stone, throw the minor traits into the mix of choices for the 10, 20, 30 point traits (sigh sorry, old habits die hard…) so the adept teir would now have 7 choices, the master tier would now have 5 choices, and the GM tier would have 4. the minor slot would become the same as the major slot: selectable. (so i would choose 2 out of 7 adept traits, 2 out of 5 major traits, and 2 out of 4 GM traits) this would allow more freedom to build more offensively or defensively as desired

specific trait lines i’m looking at for examples:

[elementalist]
fire line. the POWER line that forces defensive adept minor trait on me that i’ll never use. a fire aura would be more beneficial due to the might and aura trait synergies. or if i wanted, i could choose a different adept trait altogether! something that would benefit my ranged play style! also, i could replace sunspot, a melee spell trait, with a different master trait that fits my ranged play style better.

so imagine me taking:
burning precision, internal fire, fire’s embrace, pyromancer’s alacrity, burning rage, and pyromancer’s puissance. (i have to give up flame barrier and sunspot for this)

or for a defensive supportive build: flame barrier, spell slinger, burning fire, one with fire, blinding ashes, and persisting flames

[ranger]
marksmanship line: all the minor traits are about opening strike. sure, i kinda like the adept minor that grants me vulnerability on my opening strike. but it’s only good once per combat session. i don’t care for my pet having opening strike. (the master minor) i’d rather take eagle eye and piercing arrows as my master traits, and with 62% crit chance, i certainly don’t care about a guaranteed crit for opening strike. i’d rather take predator’s onslaught plus read the wind for my GM tier traits.

so imagine me taking:
steady focus, signet mastery, eagle eye, piercing arrows, predator’s onslaught, and read the wind…

OR for a NON longbow ranger: malicous training, keen edge, signet mastery, beastmaster’s bond, spotter, and predator’s onslaught

[slight change to trait acquisition]
each time the player earns a trait point while leveling up in the BPE, s/he gets to unlock 1 trait for free, without having to buy a book at the class trainer, and without having to earn it through completing the appropriate task. this would make up for the change of moving the minor traits into the pool of selectable major traits. there are currently 15 minor traits per class. earning 14 trait points would also grant the player 14 free traits (6 adept, 6 master, and up to 2 GM traits)

[summary]
~roll the minor trait of each tier into the selection pool
~allow the player to choose 2 traits from each tier’s selection pool
~the player gets to choose one trait to unlock for free each time s/he earns a trait point

pros: more build customizations
cons: possibly more balance concerns
imo: i think the trade-offs would be worth it, as the minor traits for each tier seem very comparable in power with the major traits of the same tier.

PS: if it’s too complicated to balance for PvP…. then this would be a great horizontal progression tool for PvE, where we already have access to extra race skills.

So, essentially, IF the ‘improvements’ happen sometime in, or around, Q2 2015, it will have been A YEAR that we have suffered with this foul trait system. Add to that the NPE and the dailies revamp (for the fourth time), it is no wonder there is so much angst and frustration sounding off in these forums. Why were the NPE and dailies revamp so important to be resourced with developer time ahead of fixing the traits?

DeceiverX.8361:

I don’t know what class or build he is playing, but it is certainly possible to get stuck trying to do things like unlocking an important trait, trying to do an event, etc. I get that they can move to other content, but like I said in my previous post, not everyone enjoys that other content – some to the point of downright despising it. While okay, my post was exaggerating the truth a bit, I don’t see any grounds for disagreeing with the prospect that some classes are near-dependent on these traits for basic functionality in the leveling process.

I think what helps is that he never tries to do stuff alone (his wife picked up the game, too – and while she doesn’t play much better, as they’re two people they’ll hardly be much pressured by content).

I’m not saying that the trait system couldn’t use a serious overhaul, mind you.
But, I love the general idea of unlocking traits. The specific things you do for each trait to unlock it, though? I’d rip out ~all of those.

Off top of my head, some general ideas, all based on the idea that being affected by something or doing something should unlock related traits:

• Warrior using burst skills while affected by conditions often enough? Get Cleansing Ire.
• Any class surviving a fall with little enough health? Get falling damage trait.
• Thief in parties using enough poisons? Get poison share.

And so on. Basically if you do something, you should naturally get all traits just applying what you do to enough situations of the game. That is not to say that it should be fully automated, maybe you need to use burst skills against a world boss and then kill it to get a specific burst skill.
But in general, stuff should never be unrelated – which they currently are. It should be reliable and dependable, burst skill traits are unlocked by using burst skills, in lots of various situations.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Hey there,

Colin Johanson and I had a chat about this thread today. He actually brought it up because he wanted to make sure that forum members know that the dev team is very aware of the concerns that our players feel about traits, and also to let you know that the devs read and refer to this subject (and particularly this thread) quite frequently. We’ve said it before, but it remains true: Your voices are being heard and your input is valued.

We wish there was more to say today, but please take heart that this subject is part of current development team discussions and we’ll let you know more as soon as we reasonably can do so.

While I personally respect you Gaile, you and ArenaNet have paid lip service about a plethora of… let’s say “issues” this game had, still has and gets every time there is an update for far too long for me to believe you. Red posts and CDIs are great PR I suppose, but no longer sway the majority of your long term players.

Let me end with a few stock phrases of my own:
Seeing is believing!
Put your (gemstore) money where your mouth is!
One bitten, twice shy.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice…

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I don’t care if there are suggestions on how to make it better. The majority of the arguing going on here is a few people in particular talking back and forth over the same ground, with a close second of what amounts to “update plz”/“ANet don’t care” posts.

I’m sorry, I should be more accurate. I do care the suggestions are there – that shows people actually care about this topic and are still thinking about it and putting things here in the hopes they’ll get noticed rather than throwing their hands up and resorting to using the absent devs as a punching bag while apologizing to Gaile for their tone and assuring her it’s not at her in particular.

But there’s a big problem with the suggestions, and it’s so simple it’s going to make me cringe when there is some movement on this issue. There’s so many suggestions beyond “just revert it” that I know there’s going to be tons of people still ticked off THEIR favorite suggestion wasn’t used, or if none of them are.

There’s a sort of sickened fascination going on in me waiting to see that day when there is a blog post about the attempt to try fixing this problem . . . and clocking the time until the massive fireball erupts from the forum server room.

It’s going to happen. I just wonder how big it’s going to be.

The thing is, whatever they do, there will probably be a fireball. But that’s not something people in this thread can be blamed for now. There would, at any time, have been irrational complaints. But nine months later (plus however many to come), that fire has been stoked with rational complaints.

If ANet fully revert – this was too long to leave that.
If they account bind- this was too long to leave that.
If they make a minor change – this was too long to mess us around.
If they do nothing – this was too long to mess us around and also to not recognise how much damage this change did/does/will do.

It isn’t that “people are never satisfied”, it’s that ANet have spent nine months brewing dissatisfaction, and the BEST case scenario is that this nine months was a waste of time that put lots of people off the game completely. Even with a complete revert, this nine months still happened.

If they had fixed it after a couple of months, or kept us updated throughout about problems and reasons for delays, then that fire wouldn’t be as big, nor as justified. But they didn’t do that.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Major thumbs up. (And I can take off this heavy armor, which is so unsuited for my class. )

This is it, guys. Cross weight armor availability confirmed for early 2015!

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

IndigoSundown.5419:

I still think the Mike O’Brien Gag Policy is a mistake. But, it’s moments like this that makes me think twice.

This is exactly why I say it’s in place, and while the silence on these things is infuriating . . . if you’re persistent enough in chasing down where the denials show up the most it’s obvious where they’re working.

We’re getting dueling mounts.

As part of the Canthan-Healer-class Expansion?

CrashTestAuto.9108:

The thing is, whatever they do, there will probably be a fireball. But that’s not something people in this thread can be blamed for now. There would, at any time, have been irrational complaints. But nine months later (plus however many to come), that fire has been stoked with rational complaints.

Again, it’s not about blaming someone for that inevitability. It’s the Internet – it’s almost a guarantee it must happen. I’ve been around long enough to know there’s no stopping it, and there has to be a Rule about it. Like Rule 34. (No, I’m not telling you what it is, and nobody bring up exactly what it is That’s irrelevant, other than to point out the inevitability of the thing being discussed.)

If there’s anything it’s about – it’s telling people to lay off whomever decides to explode and vomit out fiery death. Forget about it. Either enjoy the game, or don’t. That’s your prerogative. We don’t need a firebomb which goes off to get stoked by people fighting back trying to put over how it’s not a big deal.

Because it’s not a big deal, and people are still going to make a mess out of it anyway. You know what’s a big deal? The period of time where all that was said is “we’re looking at it”. It’s not even about whether or not anything was being done – those who want to believe the devs were sitting there playing cards all day aren’t going to stop believing that, and those who believe the devs seriously were working on it aren’t going to convince anyone.

It’s done and over.

It isn’t that “people are never satisfied”, it’s that ANet have spent nine months brewing dissatisfaction, and the BEST case scenario is that this nine months was a waste of time that put lots of people off the game completely. Even with a complete revert, this nine months still happened.

All right, it’s fair enough. So what should be done about it? Let’s stop harping on it and go ahead with how do we fix it? Or do we even bother trying to? I vote not to, if only because it’s pointless.

As I said above. That fireball is coming, no matter what.

If they had fixed it after a couple of months, or kept us updated throughout about problems and reasons for delays, then that fire wouldn’t be as big, nor as justified. But they didn’t do that.

First, the policy of not communicating on things in development means they cannot tell us what is going on unless that policy is changed. We shan’t discuss it further here (what’s the point?) other than to note they really didn’t have a choice if they wanted to keep their jobs. I’ve been there. It sucks. It really, really sucks. But you gotta eat, and you gotta get paid to eat. So you shut up and do your job, and you pray to all the old gods, the new gods, and any other gods you feel like making up in the wee hours of the night, that after you’re done . . . someone’s going to play your end result and go “that’s kind of cool/fun”.

Secondly, there’s zero justification for the fireball. It can be understood why it happened, and it can be agreed upon there is a reason for it happening. But that only explains it. That does not justify it. There is never justification for losing your nightsoil on people you don’t know, and aren’t face to face with. I know the Internet is built on the fundamental principles of “I don’t have to be nice to anyone” but, seriously, that’s gotta stop and people need to mature.

And yes, your points have been very nicely and politely stated. Thanks for that. I really wish we saw more . . . restraint, when discussing issues like this. Even if it’s, in the end, meaningless.

Now, I’m going to go quiet on this until such time as there’s more concrete data to talk about or someone else comes up with a neat idea I want to pick at. I’ve got a Mawdrey to cultivate.

Tobias, there is an important distinction between mindless vitriol, and vocal protest. I agree, absolutely, that a lot of the negativity on the forums falls into the former camp. However, this issue has also drawn much of the latter.

The problem is, and I realise that you might not agree with the solution, is that ANet have shown that they are willing to completely ignore their customers. Not just “won’t give us everything we want”, but as in “will take the game in whatever direction they want, regardless of community feedback, previous claims, or whether it is good for the game”. They’ll also do this having taken real world money for things (the lack of refunds on the SAB continue coin seriously irks me).

So, what choice does the portion of the community who genuinely cares about the game, and is not irrational, supposed to do? Polite suggestions don’t work. Short, impolite suggestions get written off as regular internet trolling. The only things that have done anything are shouting as loudly as possible for as long as possible until ANet actually does something (or, getting them bad press, which isn’t an option to the average player).

I realise that effectively throwing a tantrum is not an ideal and mature solution. But ANet has given us no other option, because anything else results in nothing happening.

I do, of course, suggest polite tantrumming. I also recognise, as have others, that Gaile is not the one at fault for this, nor likely are the devs. But unfortunately our only avenue to communicate with the people actually making decisions is either through here (and either we expect Gaile to shout at her bosses on our behalf, or we give her enough content in this thread that she can simply pass our anger on with a link without risking her job by doing it herself), or we can stop buying gems or recommending the game to others (which I stopped doing as a way of supporting the game months ago).

@Tobias:
Personally, what I said above would be my constructive criticism:

• The idea to unlock traits via ingame behaviour? Awesome.
• The specific unlock-criteria chosen for each trait however is bad, and causes grief. A better system unlocks traits as you utilize abilities in situations it relates to, example Warriors using Burst skills while affected by conditions → Cleansing Ire.

There are many great suggestions in this thread. I don’t think I’ll mind any implementation as long as it accomplishs what Anet originally intended with this trait change. Build experimentation for all players not just those with an exorbitant amount of gold, skill points, or patience, time. <- I’ll not explain how mind numbing this system can become on multiple characters.

I posted recently about a new race or class coming to the game, may bring this issue ‘front and center’ for all players vets and new alike. Many players still have not experienced the changed trait system. A new class or race would create a real stir. I can’t help but wonder if they haven’t thought about this and are preemptively taking care of the traits.
Sorry to hype, I’m not normally the type. I couldn’t help myself.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that I really liked the analogy of the trait system and a fire being fed & stoked for months. After all this time there will be issues no matter what Anet decides to do. Even a complete reversion to the old system would cause a lot of anger from those that spent a lot of gold and skill points. At this point they will have to take great care to cause the least amount of damage.

Gaile is a great asset to the community. On numerous occasions I’ve followed where she’s taken issues to the devs and at times they have come to post in the thread involved. I would never shoot the messenger unless they shot me first.

Gaile’s great, though she does have the utterly unenviable task of being the go-between.

I’m pretty sure I’d ban us all if I were her. I’d ban myself just for sanity’s sake. It’d be terrible. I couldn’t do her job.

ok then keep the new NPE system .. just make trait unlocks account wide and i’ll be happy.

So the new players have to do it the new way and us , the veterans , can have all our traits unlocked if we decide to make a Alt #17

Well all I have to say is that based on past experience, the people who make these decisions don’t seem to actually play the game the way us actual players play it. Therefore, when ANet changes things, they hardly ever make game play more FUN. Why? I have no idea.

Oh Gaile, that post there, that is what I expect as communication from the team to us, it contains both confirmation and a certain “time location”, without being too specific (in case timelines can’t be met) but without being too vague (so years can pass before said thing happens). No boulders at you for that, Gaile, but maybe flowers

vana.5467:

Gaile Gray.6029:

Major thumbs up. (And I can take off this heavy armor, which is so unsuited for my class. )

This is it, guys. Cross weight armor availability confirmed for early 2015!

Sorry to burst your bubble. She was referring to the new “Asbestos Armor Set” to be released during the first week of LSS3 — when we go after Primordius.

#rumormill

So, I blissfully ignored traits since the change, having multiple characters at the time, including several 80’s. I rolled out a new character recently, and now that the traits have unlocked and I understand what is involved…I’ve decided to just ignore traits on that character all together. I’ll still level it up, in the hopes the system will change, but right now this is mind-numbing. I regularly apologize for the system to new players that join our guild and start asking questions.

While this post doesn’t add any constructive ideas, I’m just doing it to let devs know that the crappy system is still effecting both veterans and new players daily, and the sooner a fix comes the better. Traits are basic to our characters, if players can’t access these in a reasonable manner outside of PvP, they’ll give up.

Gaile Gray.6029:

I totally understand the skepticism that you’re expressing. It has been a long time. But I know and trust the team, and I’ve heard enough details of the plans to give me confidence that progress and improvements are actively being made.

And thanks, from me to you, for not being nasty about it, or throwing a golem-sized boulder in my direction. I know that what I posted isn’t the substantive information you’d like to have. I can say that from all I hear it shouldn’t be too long before there is some info we can share. I’m not saying “this week” but I’m definitely not pointing at Q2 2015!

i have 16 toons but 4 of them is under the new NPE law … are you suggesting that i should stop to play them to avoid to waste tons of gold and skill points for the unlocks if changes is coming ?

tevoro.1587:

Feature patch March 2015 can’t wait to see what the devs cooked up this time.

Some additional mail carriers, a new gem-shop-exclusive mini, and the removal of a popular feature (Teq maybe?), if the past is any clue. While I appreciate Gaile taking the time to soothe our ruffled feathers, I still have to wonder why we got a revamp of dailies that no one asked for and carrier pigeons when this thread has been prominently featured on the front page of the forums since before I even started playing.

The best feature that could happen since the new traits came out last year would be a revert to the old system while keeping on-the-fly resets and adding in build templates. Even if the previous reset “fee” was built into the UI.

I would value this more than all other content released in that time period, and would immediately begin leveling my alts sitting at level 20 from using an experience scroll.

Just my opinion.