Guild Wars 2

Astral Projections.7320:

Galphar.3901:

sorudo.9054:

IndigoSundown.5419:

sorudo.9054:

Galphar.3901:

blakdoxa.7520:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Worblehat.8697:

So inconsistent…

That’s part of my complaint. The other is: “So how exactly does doing this relate to the Trait Mastery getting unlocked?”

At least with Elite Skills your target would use it. (This was a considerable problem with some of them.) After they changed the capture system, it was not too bad but the initial one was even more BS than Traits are now.

How?

You had to have the Signet of Capture ready, and you needed to hit it while targeting the user, while they were using it. For some of the Elites I just can’t see how that worked at all.

I’m not sure when you stopped playing GW1… But all you had to do was have the Signet of Capture, kill the boss and use the signet on their corpse. A menu would pop up that would allow you to select the skill you want to take, which would usually be an elite skill. It’s way easier to capture skills in GW1 than it is to obtain traits in GW2.

Originally Signets of Capture worked like Tobias explained, prior to the June 8th, 2005 update, this skill had to be activated at the same time the targeted boss activated the desired skill. http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Game_updates/20050608

that’s almost 10 years ago, it’s time you keep up with the times.

Galphar was explaining something that Tobias posted. It’s time you kept up with the thread.

it still happened 10 years ago, it’s time you get the point.

No the point is that before the April Trait patch people were asking for something like the Signet of Capture for Elite Skills in GW. What we got was the Trait revamp. Now IF they had gone the capture signet route then, IMHO, we wouldn’t have this 70+ page thread complaining about the changes to how we get traits.

That might have been interesting. A boss with the trait you need that’s is strong enough to be a challenge but soloable. Defeating him gives you the trait. No need to depend on bugged events and if they respawn at a normal rate, then waiting time is minimal.

I would have rather they kept traits how they were and made the World Bosses have Elite Skills for us to capture. I still remember creating a new Necromancer in GW and getting a Droks run so I could go capture Spiteful Spirit.

I remember in GW1 that I could level my ranger and go to NPC #1243-B and do a quest for them that also got me some random ranger skill, but my monk buddy would just get normal xp, etc for doing that quest, yet we go over to NPC #6534-X and they award my monk buddy a skill and i just get the xp, etc from that NPC.
If Anet had implemented something like that for (and this is the important part) brand new Traits that they introduced to the game, and made them meaningful to the classes getting them i think both long time GW players and new players alike could have applauded such a change.
If Anet REALLY was jonesing to make people travel all of Tyria doing things to unlock all the Traits as they have it now, they STILL could have made them far more attainable at appropriate levels with appropriate content for those levels, but they didn’t. In stead we got the system that makes you have to do the SAME thing, regardless of class, on the same maps, in events that are either too high level for the trait, take too many people to complete successfully, or are simply broken. Then they tacked on a ridiculous price for them as an alternative “option”.

Obviously, something is close to the surface according to Gaile’s recent post. Can we just get some concrete info about the possible update long enough BEFORE Anet goes live with it so we can at least weigh in on it? After this much time i think we are at least owed that much. And yes, i honestly feel we are owed that much.

Galphar.3901:

Astral Projections.7320:

Galphar.3901:

sorudo.9054:

IndigoSundown.5419:

sorudo.9054:

Galphar.3901:

blakdoxa.7520:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Worblehat.8697:

So inconsistent…

That’s part of my complaint. The other is: “So how exactly does doing this relate to the Trait Mastery getting unlocked?”

At least with Elite Skills your target would use it. (This was a considerable problem with some of them.) After they changed the capture system, it was not too bad but the initial one was even more BS than Traits are now.

How?

You had to have the Signet of Capture ready, and you needed to hit it while targeting the user, while they were using it. For some of the Elites I just can’t see how that worked at all.

I’m not sure when you stopped playing GW1… But all you had to do was have the Signet of Capture, kill the boss and use the signet on their corpse. A menu would pop up that would allow you to select the skill you want to take, which would usually be an elite skill. It’s way easier to capture skills in GW1 than it is to obtain traits in GW2.

Originally Signets of Capture worked like Tobias explained, prior to the June 8th, 2005 update, this skill had to be activated at the same time the targeted boss activated the desired skill. http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Game_updates/20050608

that’s almost 10 years ago, it’s time you keep up with the times.

Galphar was explaining something that Tobias posted. It’s time you kept up with the thread.

it still happened 10 years ago, it’s time you get the point.

No the point is that before the April Trait patch people were asking for something like the Signet of Capture for Elite Skills in GW. What we got was the Trait revamp. Now IF they had gone the capture signet route then, IMHO, we wouldn’t have this 70+ page thread complaining about the changes to how we get traits.

That might have been interesting. A boss with the trait you need that’s is strong enough to be a challenge but soloable. Defeating him gives you the trait. No need to depend on bugged events and if they respawn at a normal rate, then waiting time is minimal.

I would have rather they kept traits how they were and made the World Bosses have Elite Skills for us to capture. I still remember creating a new Necromancer in GW and getting a Droks run so I could go capture Spiteful Spirit.

**Small Derail: I remember my first time running my SS build through the Underworld. Good times. hehe

Galphar.3901:

sorudo.9054:

IndigoSundown.5419:

sorudo.9054:

Galphar.3901:

blakdoxa.7520:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Worblehat.8697:

So inconsistent…

That’s part of my complaint. The other is: “So how exactly does doing this relate to the Trait Mastery getting unlocked?”

At least with Elite Skills your target would use it. (This was a considerable problem with some of them.) After they changed the capture system, it was not too bad but the initial one was even more BS than Traits are now.

How?

You had to have the Signet of Capture ready, and you needed to hit it while targeting the user, while they were using it. For some of the Elites I just can’t see how that worked at all.

I’m not sure when you stopped playing GW1… But all you had to do was have the Signet of Capture, kill the boss and use the signet on their corpse. A menu would pop up that would allow you to select the skill you want to take, which would usually be an elite skill. It’s way easier to capture skills in GW1 than it is to obtain traits in GW2.

Originally Signets of Capture worked like Tobias explained, prior to the June 8th, 2005 update, this skill had to be activated at the same time the targeted boss activated the desired skill. http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Game_updates/20050608

that’s almost 10 years ago, it’s time you keep up with the times.

Galphar was explaining something that Tobias posted. It’s time you kept up with the thread.

it still happened 10 years ago, it’s time you get the point.

No the point is that before the April Trait patch people were asking for something like the Signet of Capture for Elite Skills in GW. What we got was the Trait revamp. Now IF they had gone the capture signet route then, IMHO, we wouldn’t have this 70+ page thread complaining about the changes to how we get traits.

I have not played GW1, but I do hear great things about it. The way skills are gained by capturing them, sounds very interesting and unique as oppose to traditional unlocking. From what I can see, Anet was trying to replicate an intricate way of obtaining traits. But they ended up giving us a bad experience.

Traits along with utility skills make up a profession’s power and uniqueness. Having 65 traits locked behind tedious tasks is work, not fun. I read that some players said they pick out the traits they’ll use and go unlock those. Nice plan, but not a good solution to the system. Before the heinous April patch, players didn’t have to settle with just a few traits. We were able to unlock all traits with a couple of gold.

As veteran players, we do have the resources to buy the traits even if they are 43g + 360 skill pts. But, being able to afford something doesn’t justify the high price compared to our old system’s 3g10s. If Anet was using the new trait system as a means of introducing a gold sink, it is rather unnecessary and it hurts new players the most.

BentoDetective.6491:

Traits along with utility skills make up a profession’s power and uniqueness. Having 65 traits locked behind tedious tasks is work, not fun.

Because the players suffer with this terrible new trait system, those responsible for making this decision should have to look at this above quote every minute of the day. Just maybe then things will change.

Galphar.3901:

Astral Projections.7320:

Galphar.3901:

sorudo.9054:

IndigoSundown.5419:

sorudo.9054:

Galphar.3901:

blakdoxa.7520:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Worblehat.8697:

So inconsistent…

That’s part of my complaint. The other is: “So how exactly does doing this relate to the Trait Mastery getting unlocked?”

At least with Elite Skills your target would use it. (This was a considerable problem with some of them.) After they changed the capture system, it was not too bad but the initial one was even more BS than Traits are now.

How?

You had to have the Signet of Capture ready, and you needed to hit it while targeting the user, while they were using it. For some of the Elites I just can’t see how that worked at all.

I’m not sure when you stopped playing GW1… But all you had to do was have the Signet of Capture, kill the boss and use the signet on their corpse. A menu would pop up that would allow you to select the skill you want to take, which would usually be an elite skill. It’s way easier to capture skills in GW1 than it is to obtain traits in GW2.

Originally Signets of Capture worked like Tobias explained, prior to the June 8th, 2005 update, this skill had to be activated at the same time the targeted boss activated the desired skill. http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Game_updates/20050608

that’s almost 10 years ago, it’s time you keep up with the times.

Galphar was explaining something that Tobias posted. It’s time you kept up with the thread.

it still happened 10 years ago, it’s time you get the point.

No the point is that before the April Trait patch people were asking for something like the Signet of Capture for Elite Skills in GW. What we got was the Trait revamp. Now IF they had gone the capture signet route then, IMHO, we wouldn’t have this 70+ page thread complaining about the changes to how we get traits.

That might have been interesting. A boss with the trait you need that’s is strong enough to be a challenge but soloable. Defeating him gives you the trait. No need to depend on bugged events and if they respawn at a normal rate, then waiting time is minimal.

I would have rather they kept traits how they were and made the World Bosses have Elite Skills for us to capture. I still remember creating a new Necromancer in GW and getting a Droks run so I could go capture Spiteful Spirit.

I can picture that. Fire Elemental for Elementalists, Golem MkII for Engineers, Shadow Behemoth for Necromancers, Karka Queen for Guardians, The Shatterer for Mesmers, Jungle Wurm for Rangers, Admiral Taidha Covington for Thieves, and the Sand Giant for Warriors.

Bernie.8674:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

At least with Elite Skills your target would use it. (This was a considerable problem with some of them.) After they changed the capture system, it was not too bad but the initial one was even more BS than Traits are now.

I beg to differ.

…

I’m a bit confused. I never had a problem with that. You just had to be familiar with the boss and watch his cast bar very carefully.

Nope, sorry, I really didn’t like it before it got changed. AFTER it got changed, I didn’t have to watch the boss like a hawk to the point of ignoring everything else going on. I also didn’t have to pray they used the skill before going down.

The real problem with the Trait Mastery unlocks is how eclectic the list is and how they make no sense in comparison. You needed a necromancer Elite Skill (Aura of the Lich)? Start hunting necromancer bosses in areas past Sanctum Cay in the campaign. You might have to really hunt but you knew what you were looking for and there was a reasoning to it.

Trait Masteries? Less rhyme or reason.

sorudo.9054:

no, we would have a 70+ page complaint on how annoying it is to even get 1 elite skill to begin with, i never wanted the whole capture in GW2 at all and never will.

We’ll always have a 70+ complaint thread about anything. Even if they gave out free Gems to everyone, there’d be a complaint thread about the amount not being high enough, or something. I’m jaded on that whole score.

I wanted less the capture mechanic and more earning the Mastery. Personally, if it was a matter of accumulating through play? Like “To earn Read the Wind, earn the Longbow Master or Speargun Master achievement”. “To earn Predator’s Onslaught, your or your pet kill X enemies while they are affected by movement-impeding conditions.”

Some task which is appropriate and related to the achievement. If you really want to have them work on unlocks and travel, then you can have that too. Have them need to complete an event where a ranger NPC is involved and they’ll “offer to show them a trick” which unlocks how you earn it.

That is how I would have revamped the system myself. Overlay it on top of what already exists. Anyone can be grandfathered in, and if you visit a trainer you can pay Silver/Badges/SP (one of these things, not all of them) you can unlock earning it without needing to go PvE.

(Yes, I said silver, not gold.)

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

We’ll always have a 70+ complaint thread about anything. Even if they gave out free Gems to everyone, there’d be a complaint thread about the amount not being high enough, or something. I’m jaded on that whole score.

I wanted less the capture mechanic and more earning the Mastery. Personally, if it was a matter of accumulating through play? Like “To earn Read the Wind, earn the Longbow Master or Speargun Master achievement”. “To earn Predator’s Onslaught, your or your pet kill X enemies while they are affected by movement-impeding conditions.”

Some task which is appropriate and related to the achievement. If you really want to have them work on unlocks and travel, then you can have that too. Have them need to complete an event where a ranger NPC is involved and they’ll “offer to show them a trick” which unlocks how you earn it.

That is how I would have revamped the system myself. Overlay it on top of what already exists. Anyone can be grandfathered in, and if you visit a trainer you can pay Silver/Badges/SP (one of these things, not all of them) you can unlock earning it without needing to go PvE.

(Yes, I said silver, not gold.)

Yes, there will always be people who complain. This thread, however, has much merit to it and Anet needs to really listen to the players. I do like your idea of earning the trait through a meaningful and related task. I must stress that if something new were to be implemented, please do not make it a chore. I can agree on the amount you stated for paying a trainer for the traits (silver, not gold).

As for the upcoming possible expansion, my opinion, fix the problems within the core game first. A new addition to any game would bring with it, its own set of problems. So I say, let’s fix what we have now. Then, we can move forward with a solid foundation.

BentoDetective.6491:

Yes, there will always be people who complain. This thread, however, has much merit to it and Anet needs to really listen to the players.

I agree on both accounts. There’s always going to be complaints, and there will almost always be a thread which hits insane amounts of pages just because several people keep arguing back and forth over something. And this thread does have merit, which is why it’s sticking around instead of being shut down like mount threads tend to.

I do like your idea of earning the trait through a meaningful and related task. I must stress that if something new were to be implemented, please do not make it a chore. I can agree on the amount you stated for paying a trainer for the traits (silver, not gold).

I would say, 25 silver for the first tier, 40 for the second, 75 for the third. Yeah, it sounds like a lot until you realize it’s not too hard to earn the money. Especially for the grandmaster tier, where green drops are worth a silver and anywhere up to 98 copper . . .

I also say no matter what it would be, we’re going to get “this is such a chore”. It needs to be . . . oh, less than Yakslapper and more than what the old dailies used to be, I’d say.

They should come up with training arcs that make us complete a specific series of story-based but skill-driven tasks to unlock each tier of traits.

It should and could be tied the order one had joined. Joined the vigil? It’ll be straight up combat missions for you too unlock your trait tiers. You might wind up having to resource manage and direct forces like a warmaster and duke it out one on one against a BBEG boss to unlock grandmaster traits in the end.

Joined the whispers? You’ll have to go on stalker and stealth missions. What begins as a simple spying job for tier 1 traits might escalate into being framed for a murder you didn’t commit and having to find the real culprit for tier two, culminating in a dramatic final conflict against a shocking foe that you’ll get to fight like Batman versus your own personal Joker nemesis to unlock tier 3.

Joined the Priory? Light on combat, heavy on lore, you’ll have to solve puzzles, survive spelunking some ooh-ahh-woo environments and face some lightly challenging combat.

What might begin for a priory member as being involved in fascinating research into a dwarven ruin (and getting into it in the first place) might be tier 1. Members of the research team that excavated the ruin turning up missing under mysterious circumstances and turning up found back in the ruin under some sort of spell forcing them to go through the motions of acting or the lives of ancient dwarves long dead might make the player have to solve some puzzles to find that there’s a sentient artifact malingering in the ruin and get it to release their comrades.

The grand finale could be the artifact, taken into safe keeping by the priory, challenges the player character to a deadly game – to enter into its very mind and learn the terrible truth of the dwarves that lived in that big- woo ruin, at risk of never escaping the artifact’s clutches! Into a misty mindscape the player must then go, to interact with memories and echoes, piecing together both the shocking truth of both the dwarves and the artifact itself while being forced to find a way out with that knowledge.

In this manner, players could pick the nature and theme of the challenge they will pursue and, at the appropriate levels, be able to start on their trait questlines, unlocking the entire tier when they’ve finished.

There very well could be ongoing storylines starting with the first trait tier’s unlocking, continuing when it’s time to unlock tier two and culminating in a grand finish to unlock tier three.

naiasonod.9265:

They should come up with training arcs that make us complete a specific series of story-based but skill-driven tasks to unlock each tier of traits.

It should and could be tied the order one had joined. Joined the vigil? It’ll be straight up combat missions for you too unlock your trait tiers. You might wind up having to resource manage and direct forces like a warmaster and duke it out one on one against a BBEG boss to unlock grandmaster traits in the end.

Joined the whispers? You’ll have to go on stalker and stealth missions.

Joined the Priory? Light on combat, heavy on lore, you’ll have to solve puzzles, survive spelunking some ooh-ahh-woo environments and face some lightly challenging combat.

In this manner, players could pick the nature and theme of the challenge they will pursue and, at the appropriate levels, be able to start on their trait questlines, unlocking the entire tier when they’ve finished.

There found be ongoing storylines starting with the first trait tier’s unlocking, continuing when it’s time to unlock tier two and culminating in a grand finish to unlock tier three.

Have a +1.

Would definitely like to see some reason for your order being chosen other than liking Tybalt/Forgal/Sieran and the armor skins.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Have a +1.

Would definitely like to see some reason for your order being chosen other than liking Tybalt/Forgal/Sieran and the armor skins.

This should have nothing to do with traits. Don’t forget about power leveling to just do PvP/WvW and those who enjoy EOTM. Lets face it, before April, we had the perfect trait acquisition system.

Account bound and silver might silence the masses. I doubt it though.

Daggos Skelito.2910:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Have a +1.

Would definitely like to see some reason for your order being chosen other than liking Tybalt/Forgal/Sieran and the armor skins.

This should have nothing to do with traits. Don’t forget about power leveling to just do PvP/WvW and those who enjoy EOTM. Lets face it, before April, we had the perfect trait acquisition system.

Account bound and silver might silence the masses. I doubt it though.

You’re right as a balance issue of course. But I was under the impression from reading the forums everyone quit who did PvP/WvW/EOTM. That seems to be what I was reading.

Though I’m one of those players who feel it’s almost criminal to buy a game and play only one part of it, then insist on getting the same things others get playing the other modes. Personal opinion, only.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Though I’m one of those players who feel it’s almost criminal to buy a game and play only one part of it, then insist on getting the same things others get playing the other modes. Personal opinion, only.

Even when that was originally billed as part of the vision for the game by the developers?

Gibson.4036:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Though I’m one of those players who feel it’s almost criminal to buy a game and play only one part of it, then insist on getting the same things others get playing the other modes. Personal opinion, only.

Even when that was originally billed as part of the vision for the game by the developers?

Mmm. Sorry, what is it you’re on about? You’re going to need to not be coy about it if you want me to answer straight.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Mmm. Sorry, what is it you’re on about? You’re going to need to not be coy about it if you want me to answer straight.

Sorry, wasn’t trying to be coy. Just thought it’d been discussed enough and that there was enough context that it didn’t need elaboration.

Part of the original vision for the game that was presented by the developers was the ability to stick to the part of the game you liked, and get rewarded just as well as other players.

Obviously, this vision has changed. ArenaNet decided it was a better idea to do it like other games, and structure their reward system to draw people into other parts of the game.

But, at one point, they did trumpet the idea that, for example, a player who liked WvW could stay in WvW full time and not feel left behind players in other game modes.

It was a shift. Developers do that. But your reaction (“almost criminal”) seemed very strong for a game, that at one point, was trumpeted as doing just that.

Gibson.4036:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Mmm. Sorry, what is it you’re on about? You’re going to need to not be coy about it if you want me to answer straight.

Sorry, wasn’t trying to be coy. Just thought it’d been discussed enough and that there was enough context that it didn’t need elaboration.

Part of the original vision for the game that was presented by the developers was the ability to stick to the part of the game you liked, and get rewarded just as well as other players.

Ah, that. I suppose it’s true – I get paid better running around WvW than I usually do just messing around in PvE. I don’t know much about how lucrative PvP is, though. Can’t really play well enough to take part.

Obviously, this vision has changed. ArenaNet decided it was a better idea to do it like other games, and structure their reward system to draw people into other parts of the game.

Draw, sure. Force? No.

But, at one point, they did trumpet the idea that, for example, a player who liked WvW could stay in WvW full time and not feel left behind players in other game modes.

And a player who wants to just sit in PvE could do just that. But if something is put in which is neat and for PvP players . . . I think it’s a little strange to demand that reward for that content if you don’t actually do it.

It was a shift. Developers do that. But your reaction (“almost criminal”) seemed very strong for a game, that at one point, was trumpeted as doing just that.

It’s a personal opinion which I hold, and have for a long time. Specifically, it’s when I watch someone blow through a game in 10 hours by speeding through and trying to spend the least amount of time doing things and complaining the game was short, or too hard, or there should have been more . . .

That feeling got real bad when a friend told me he beat Morrowind in a day and the game was “not really all that much”. Didn’t do any of the guilds’ missions, didn’t explore anywhere, just did main quest line and a few things which happened to be in the vicinity.

The same feeling applies when I talk with someone who only saw part of one episode of a series (or even a commercial teaser) and extrapolated all their idea of what the series was like from that small peek. I know people who thought Fringe was a comedy . . .

I know it came off strong, and that’s why I said it was a personal thing. If I want to say how terrible something is . . . I try it out or at least check deeper than a snap judgement. (To put this into perspective . . . before I badmouthed Twilight myself I went and saw the movie and read five chapters. I kinda wish I hadn’t done either but I felt I had to before putting out an opinion.) I wish others do the same.

With games? It’s more a matter of at least putting an effort into seeing what some developer/coder put their time into rather than going “it stinks” without actually looking into the whole of the game. “It’s not my thing”, I’m okay with but “this game sucks donkey turds” after five minutes of play? Annoys the heck out of me.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

With games? It’s more a matter of at least putting an effort into seeing what some developer/coder put their time into rather than going “it stinks” without actually looking into the whole of the game. “It’s not my thing”, I’m okay with but “this game sucks donkey turds” after five minutes of play? Annoys the heck out of me.

Thanks for taking the time to elaborate. There are good reasons to lock rewards behind certain parts of the game, and those reasons clearly changed ANet’s mind on the matter.

I’m a player who is willing to try everything in the game, but quickly loses interest in something that is supposed to be entertainment when it starts feeling like a chore. After playing enough MMORPGs where the best gear was always locked behind 20 person raids, something I definitely don’t enjoy, it was refreshing that ANet planned to break that mold and allow players to pursue whatever part of the game they wanted to get to the rewards.

There’s a good argument for both sides.

Gibson.4036:

Obviously, this vision has changed. ArenaNet decided it was a better idea to do it like other games, and structure their reward system to draw people into other parts of the game.

Small correction:
Most WoW-clones do the exact opposite. They pre-determine 1-2 elements of their game as the “core” experience, and keep rewarding those, only using rewards in the other ones as a measure of staying afloat in case you want to join the main modes (example WoW: Raiding / Arena).

That’s not at all like what GW2 does where it tries to constantly throw things in the other game modes at you, to try get you there.

Gibson.4036:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

With games? It’s more a matter of at least putting an effort into seeing what some developer/coder put their time into rather than going “it stinks” without actually looking into the whole of the game. “It’s not my thing”, I’m okay with but “this game sucks donkey turds” after five minutes of play? Annoys the heck out of me.

Thanks for taking the time to elaborate. There are good reasons to lock rewards behind certain parts of the game, and those reasons clearly changed ANet’s mind on the matter.

Even so, I do find more of the locking is just cosmetics. The one which makes me groan is Traits. But that’s been talked a lot and I might elaborate later on. Unlikely, though.

I’m a player who is willing to try everything in the game, but quickly loses interest in something that is supposed to be entertainment when it starts feeling like a chore. After playing enough MMORPGs where the best gear was always locked behind 20 person raids, something I definitely don’t enjoy, it was refreshing that ANet planned to break that mold and allow players to pursue whatever part of the game they wanted to get to the rewards.

We’re alike in that spirit – I played at least two such games and two other games before Guild Wars where gear didn’t matter as much as character build. Some of the raiding for stuff . . . where RNG twice over would come into play (did it drop? And if so, can I beat the roll for it?) . . . was not pleasant. But in the other games, there was a certain lack of something for a large part of it – a lack of something to earn prestige-wise.

Even so, I have a low tolerance for high-cost (time or money) gambles based on RNG for rewards . . . required for progression. Cosmetic awards make me grumpy, but I can fluff it off.

Grind for something important? Well, that’s where I sigh and try to figure out how to skirt it. Usually by “how can I minimize the time to get this without cheating outright”.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

We’re alike in that spirit – I played at least two such games and two other games before Guild Wars where gear didn’t matter as much as character build. Some of the raiding for stuff . . . where RNG twice over would come into play (did it drop? And if so, can I beat the roll for it?) . . . was not pleasant. But in the other games, there was a certain lack of something for a large part of it – a lack of something to earn prestige-wise.

Even so, I have a low tolerance for high-cost (time or money) gambles based on RNG for rewards . . . required for progression. Cosmetic awards make me grumpy, but I can fluff it off.

Grind for something important? Well, that’s where I sigh and try to figure out how to skirt it. Usually by “how can I minimize the time to get this without cheating outright”.

Couldn’t have described me better right there. Seems we’re in the same boat on this sort of thing.

naiasonod.9265:

Couldn’t have described me better right there. Seems we’re in the same boat on this sort of thing.

There is a reason I decided “Legendary Defender of Ascalon” was only something to chase when Vanguard Quests got added and I legitimately had little else to want to do.

Gibson.4036:

But, at one point, they did trumpet the idea that, for example, a player who liked WvW could stay in WvW full time and not feel left behind players in other game modes.

I saw how well that played out over Wintersday when my guild mate got an exotic water breather for every single one of his characters through the PvP track while I got a grand total of 0 over my entire account despite doing all the meta achievements, doing the Wintersday daily every single day, and opening every single present I could get my hands on. The changes in Guild Wars 1 always went in the direction that you’re describing, but I think that vision has been abandoned.

Bernie.8674:

Gibson.4036:

But, at one point, they did trumpet the idea that, for example, a player who liked WvW could stay in WvW full time and not feel left behind players in other game modes.

I saw how well that played out over Wintersday when my guild mate got an exotic water breather for every single one of his characters through the PvP track while I got a grand total of 0 over my entire account despite doing all the meta achievements, doing the Wintersday daily every single day, and opening every single present I could get my hands on. The changes in Guild Wars 1 always went in the direction that you’re describing, but I think that vision has been abandoned.

Better reason to avoid RNG for specific things and let it be “select your prize” type things.

. . . though, really, did you need that aquabreather with all the copious amounts of underwater combat in the game?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Bernie.8674:

Gibson.4036:

But, at one point, they did trumpet the idea that, for example, a player who liked WvW could stay in WvW full time and not feel left behind players in other game modes.

I saw how well that played out over Wintersday when my guild mate got an exotic water breather for every single one of his characters through the PvP track while I got a grand total of 0 over my entire account despite doing all the meta achievements, doing the Wintersday daily every single day, and opening every single present I could get my hands on. The changes in Guild Wars 1 always went in the direction that you’re describing, but I think that vision has been abandoned.

Better reason to avoid RNG for specific things and let it be “select your prize” type things.

. . . though, really, did you need that aquabreather with all the copious amounts of underwater combat in the game?

As for GW2’s RNG, I would say that it’s like paying to get into an amusement park and having to also pay to get on each of the rides. Having played WoW a few years back, WoW’s RNG was (my opinion) not quite as harsh as GW2. But then of course, GW2 is not subscription-based like WoW. I guess I’m mostly targeting RNG-based items such as the new weapons that are obtained through the BL tickets.

Even if bought from other players on the TP, the hefty price for just one skin is enough to break the bank for most casual players. For the hardcore or business-players of GW2, the cost is nothing.

Disregarding the amount of underwater combat, an exotic aquabreather is the first of its kind. Introducing it on Wintersday and having it only available within a set timeframe, makes the item have a certain prestige (not to mention the special effects).

BentoDetective.6491:

As for GW2’s RNG, I would say that it’s like paying to get into an amusement park and having to also pay to get on each of the rides. Having played WoW a few years back, WoW’s RNG was (my opinion) not quite as harsh as GW2. But then of course, GW2 is not subscription-based like WoW. I guess I’m mostly targeting RNG-based items such as the new weapons that are obtained through the BL tickets.

See, WoW can afford to “you’ll eventually get it through playing and accumulating towards the goal” due to being subscription and having the notable gear climb through each raid instance. If (a huge IF since I don’t play WoW and only know what I know from talking with about nine players in various states of ‘I wish I could quit you’ . . .) it’s required to keep getting new gear for each raid (either for resistances or better stats) then . . . I don’t see how that’s a better arrangement.

Yes. I’m not exactly fond of merely RNG-ing everything. I ragequit board games which do that. (I will never buy “Elder Sign” no matter how many people try to tell me it’s awesome. I refuse to play Yahtzee unless someone is providing snacks and something to listen to or watch while it’s not my turn.)

But. When it’s cosmetic goods or otherwise inconsequential to performance? I tend to flex away from my complaints.

Disregarding the amount of underwater combat, an exotic aquabreather is the first of its kind. Introducing it on Wintersday and having it only available within a set timeframe, makes the item have a certain prestige (not to mention the special effects).

It shows up randomly in the presents, right? Those who got trees in the home instance thus have a means of acquiring them. Maybe. I hope an exotic Aquabreather will eventually be something we can make. (Gods only know why we can’t make them normally.)

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

BentoDetective.6491:

Disregarding the amount of underwater combat, an exotic aquabreather is the first of its kind. Introducing it on Wintersday and having it only available within a set timeframe, makes the item have a certain prestige (not to mention the special effects).

It shows up randomly in the presents, right? Those who got trees in the home instance thus have a means of acquiring them. Maybe. I hope an exotic Aquabreather will eventually be something we can make. (Gods only know why we can’t make them normally.)

It is possible to obtain it through the presents. But, many players have opened thousands to only get one or two. Worst case scenario, none. The most reliable way was to complete the Wintersday pvp reward track, which was a temporary track.

BentoDetective.6491:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

BentoDetective.6491:

Disregarding the amount of underwater combat, an exotic aquabreather is the first of its kind. Introducing it on Wintersday and having it only available within a set timeframe, makes the item have a certain prestige (not to mention the special effects).

It shows up randomly in the presents, right? Those who got trees in the home instance thus have a means of acquiring them. Maybe. I hope an exotic Aquabreather will eventually be something we can make. (Gods only know why we can’t make them normally.)

It is possible to obtain it through the presents. But, many players have opened thousands to only get one or two. Worst case scenario, none. The most reliable way was to complete the Wintersday pvp reward track, which was a temporary track.

Mmm.

If water combat wasn’t quietly seeming to be going away more and more? I’d care more about it. As it is, I’d care less about this particular problem than us not being able to make aquabreathers as readily as we make armor . . . or at least have better access to ones above “Masterwork” rarity.

And “better access” does not mean “Ascended Aquabreather recipes have been added this last patch.”

The slow demise of water combat is a shame really. It’s one of the things I really enjoyed in this game. That and a frigid, quiet Hoelbrak which I’ll never have back thanks to MegaServers.

Oh, we were talking about traits, right…

KyreneZA.8617:

The slow demise of water combat is a shame really. It’s one of the things I really enjoyed in this game.

Off-topic but i’m with you on this. I enjoyed a lot the underwater exploration, and was really hoping for better “deeper” underwater content. Southsun Cove was a particular disappointment in that regards with no diving worth mentioning on a brand new island area…

cafard.8953:

KyreneZA.8617:

The slow demise of water combat is a shame really. It’s one of the things I really enjoyed in this game.

Off-topic but i’m with you on this. I enjoyed a lot the underwater exploration, and was really hoping for better “deeper” underwater content. Southsun Cove was a particular disappointment in that regards with no diving worth mentioning on a brand new island area…

See, I also liked it.

But I main a Ranger, and we do pretty good underwater.

Not to be a total stick in the mud, because i do think this latest convo has been very enlightening (not being sarcastic, i really do), but lets try to actually keep this post on topic. It has frankly gone on too long for it to be closed due to derailing now.

Bigger question from me to Anet:

IF all of this HoT talk is leading to a proper expansion, are you going to be addressing the Trait problem before the release of HoT so it doesn’t mire the new content or are you going to attempt to fix it along with the release of HoT , and are hoping that whatever fix you’ve cooked up will work/appease many of us that have been discussing this Trait problem now since last April?

Pointedly, Gaile, are we going to see the Traits issue addressed before PAX or at least before HoT (whatever it might be) goes live?

I think she said we should expect something “soon”. Timing suggests this will be addressed as part of it.

While I agree that “soon” could mean that, Anet is notorious for saying “soon” and then going silent for months.

My bigger point here is that if it is soon enough that something is “in the chamber” so to speak, then it should also be soon enough to give us either:

a- More concrete timeline with respect to HoT
b- More concrete info regarding the possible trait changes so we could hopefully weigh in on some of it before it goes live.

This first Trait change occurred in a vacuum and lead to this wondrous post. All i’m asking for is for Anet to actually follow through with their mantra of “they will let us know more info once they actually have it.” It seems like they have more info. i just want them to actually share it instead of springing it on us and hoping for the best.

If the past is any indication, Anet will more than likely spring it on players. Hope is what we hold onto in the meantime. If the changes turns out to be another mess, we’ll see another 70+ page of complaints and suggestions. Let’s hope that Anet will put us, players, first when deciding upon the changes.

Anet did give a post at about page 30-40 saying they saw the issues and would potentially be looking for a fix, even suggesting a quicker fix until the main one could be in. Gaile’s first recent post was very much of the same order, and on its own doesn’t fill with confidence based on past performance. Her second post was somewhat more confident, and tentatively suggested a timescale. I understand some will say its just an indication, but after so long of this debacle, I am looking to hold Anet to that, and will criticize them even more if they don’t. It’s been too long that any slack that may be given to them on this situation has long gone. Over 9 months now guys.

Even more worrying on some level is the points raised more recently, that the resolution may just be foisted upon the players. I would suggest that every single major issue I’ve ever had with this game, every single one, comes from a change that Anet implemented where they just went in far too quickly and didn’t give enough notice for reasonable discussion and responses to take place, and/or they didn’t give the full story on the implementation. The blog on this issue (now deleted – fancy that!) didn’t give much mention to the new unlock requirements, but emphasised the admittedly great points. So much we were in the dark with and couldn’t give good feedback until it was live. So many issues I’ve seen in game could have been avoided if the players were let into the conversation at a point where our concerns prior to implementation could be aired, with some time for adjustments. So many features have come through where the players gave some potential issues pre-release, and then found many of them to be true. Most issues were predicted before release of a given feature. It is much easier to communicate with us and work the issues rather than just wait for the fallout and claim they change things “in response to feedback”. Indeed they do, but if they included us beforehand, they could have done that and not released a poorer system.

I hope Anet do keep their word on the timescale they offered, and I hope that better communication towards and inclusion of players becomes more normalised. It creates a better relationship between developer and player, and leads to a better, and much more loved game.

I’m going to guess now that any trait system changes are coming with HoT.

The good version of that is if they come out at the same time, as a general update to the game.

The bad version of that is if they come only if you buy HoT. I don’t think people will take kindly to having an important game system trashed, then being told that they can have a fixed version again if they pay more money.

Wolfheart.1879:

Anet did give a post at about page 30-40 saying they saw the issues and would potentially be looking for a fix, even suggesting a quicker fix until the main one could be in. Gaile’s first recent post was very much of the same order, and on its own doesn’t fill with confidence based on past performance. Her second post was somewhat more confident, and tentatively suggested a timescale. I understand some will say its just an indication, but after so long of this debacle, I am looking to hold Anet to that, and will criticize them even more if they don’t. It’s been too long that any slack that may be given to them on this situation has long gone. Over 9 months now guys.

Even more worrying on some level is the points raised more recently, that the resolution may just be foisted upon the players. I would suggest that every single major issue I’ve ever had with this game, every single one, comes from a change that Anet implemented where they just went in far too quickly and didn’t give enough notice for reasonable discussion and responses to take place, and/or they didn’t give the full story on the implementation. The blog on this issue (now deleted – fancy that!) didn’t give much mention to the new unlock requirements, but emphasised the admittedly great points. So much we were in the dark with and couldn’t give good feedback until it was live. So many issues I’ve seen in game could have been avoided if the players were let into the conversation at a point where our concerns prior to implementation could be aired, with some time for adjustments. So many features have come through where the players gave some potential issues pre-release, and then found many of them to be true. Most issues were predicted before release of a given feature. It is much easier to communicate with us and work the issues rather than just wait for the fallout and claim they change things “in response to feedback”. Indeed they do, but if they included us beforehand, they could have done that and not released a poorer system.

I hope Anet do keep their word on the timescale they offered, and I hope that better communication towards and inclusion of players becomes more normalised. It creates a better relationship between developer and player, and leads to a better, and much more loved game.

Absolutely correct in regards to discussion between developer and player prior to implementation. However, Anet has decided to keep us in the dark for good reason. One such reason is that if they announced something and failed to deliver, then players would explode with rage.

Hopefully, Anet will utilize this thread’s suggestions and succeed the next time around. Ironically, the trait system introduced with the game was fine as is. Don’t fix something unless it’s broken or unplayable. Anet certainly went above and beyond with the new trait system, but in the wrong direction.

BentoDetective.6491:

Wolfheart.1879:

Anet did give a post at about page 30-40 saying they saw the issues and would potentially be looking for a fix, even suggesting a quicker fix until the main one could be in. Gaile’s first recent post was very much of the same order, and on its own doesn’t fill with confidence based on past performance. Her second post was somewhat more confident, and tentatively suggested a timescale. I understand some will say its just an indication, but after so long of this debacle, I am looking to hold Anet to that, and will criticize them even more if they don’t. It’s been too long that any slack that may be given to them on this situation has long gone. Over 9 months now guys.

Even more worrying on some level is the points raised more recently, that the resolution may just be foisted upon the players. I would suggest that every single major issue I’ve ever had with this game, every single one, comes from a change that Anet implemented where they just went in far too quickly and didn’t give enough notice for reasonable discussion and responses to take place, and/or they didn’t give the full story on the implementation. The blog on this issue (now deleted – fancy that!) didn’t give much mention to the new unlock requirements, but emphasised the admittedly great points. So much we were in the dark with and couldn’t give good feedback until it was live. So many issues I’ve seen in game could have been avoided if the players were let into the conversation at a point where our concerns prior to implementation could be aired, with some time for adjustments. So many features have come through where the players gave some potential issues pre-release, and then found many of them to be true. Most issues were predicted before release of a given feature. It is much easier to communicate with us and work the issues rather than just wait for the fallout and claim they change things “in response to feedback”. Indeed they do, but if they included us beforehand, they could have done that and not released a poorer system.

I hope Anet do keep their word on the timescale they offered, and I hope that better communication towards and inclusion of players becomes more normalised. It creates a better relationship between developer and player, and leads to a better, and much more loved game.

Absolutely correct in regards to discussion between developer and player prior to implementation. However, Anet has decided to keep us in the dark for good reason. One such reason is that if they announced something and failed to deliver, then players would explode with rage.

Hopefully, Anet will utilize this thread’s suggestions and succeed the next time around. Ironically, the trait system introduced with the game was fine as is. Don’t fix something unless it’s broken or unplayable. Anet certainly went above and beyond with the new trait system, but in the wrong direction.

I understand for purposes of failing to deliver, and don’t believe players should necessarily have that level of involvement from the drawing-board stage. I’m arguing more that once the vast majority of any system has been built, to the point that it is nearly at a release stage, the details are opened up, perhaps with Anet answering questions as they arise. A few extra weeks of that between it made and being implemented could have a much better effect and response than just rushing it out and hoping for the best.

These are my suggestions after unlocking a few traits today, since I don’t think Anet will reverte the system (honestly that would be the best):

-No map completion
-Make it accountbound
-A tooltip in the top right corner that you can unlock traits on your current map
-No group events in PVE
-Lower the costs (especially skill points)

This can’t be so hard! It’s been 8 months!

New system is horrible. I already have 100% map completition on my main and have done lots of the stuff you are supposed to do to get the new traits. Why would I need to either pay or do this stuff again? I leveled an alt with some tomes of knowledge and now I know that he would be better off if I deleted him and my other alts because I’ll never use them again just because of this. It’s a waste of time.

So. I’ll add to the complainer list.
After trait system changes, I deleted my lvl 56 engie, because I lost interest in playing him in hampered mode.
Now I have had 3 characters that were 80 before changes and thank kitten for that. Cause I can’t make myself enjoy playing any alts I make after trait changes. Each time I get a trait point it reminds me of something I had and don’t have anymore.

Tie it to personal story preferably rather than to world events and give item skin rewards for completing various tasks in world instead. That way at least it will feel that your character is growing while you’re doing it’s personal story, rather than just getting account wide shinies…

Not going to give ideas – the good ones are all listed.

My two penneth is this: listen to your players/customers. If a large section of the community are up in arms about something, something needs to be addressed.

I can give an example of how horrible things get – Google SoE/Prosiebensat. It prompted a video on YouTube too. If you want to watch it, it’s called “somewhere in norrath another guild dissolves” but please note it contains mild swearing

Also, apologies if mentioning other companies is against forum policy – if so, please delete as it’s not my intention cast a slur, just an observation.

Many thanks.

Don’t know how many months it’s been, but would like to know if Anet has made any progress towards a new trait system. I would render that another feature pack will answer this thread’s complaints. Players have been patient and long overdue a proper answer.

BentoDetective.6491:

Don’t know how many months it’s been, but would like to know if Anet has made any progress towards a new trait system. I would render that another feature pack will answer this thread’s complaints. Players have been patient and long overdue a proper answer.

IF we get it in another Feature pack, it will probably be in April and that would make it a year of this BS Trait “revamp”.

This new trait system is really annoying. I’m so happy that I only have one char created after it. Yes, it does make things easier for new players because you dont have to bother with it at all while leveling up, so you only go for minors and stats. It’s really frustrating to get have empty mastertraits because the one you want is locked many levels ahead. Usually MMOs have mechanics to help new players catch up with the rest, in GW2 it’s the opposit. Creating alts was one of the best things in gw2 as the content for lvl 80 is done fast if you dont fancy supergrind or wvw.

Two more examples of dissatisfaction:
Just breached 30 with a new engineer. Thinking about build options, I look and find … do something stupid in WvW. Not interested.
I also thought about buying a new slot for a character, so I can design around a look. Every time, I thought about the terrible trait design and the hope for a new one, so I’m not going to invest until it changes.

But, the issue with my Engi made me think.

While some might crow about “the manifesto,” wasn’t there a notion that rewards would be available through any style of play (WvW, PvP, PvE)? Not to say all rewards should be available in all modes, but traits should be something anyone can get from any mode.

Rauderi.8706:

Two more examples of dissatisfaction:
Just breached 30 with a new engineer. Thinking about build options, I look and find … do something stupid in WvW. Not interested.
I also thought about buying a new slot for a character, so I can design around a look. Every time, I thought about the terrible trait design and the hope for a new one, so I’m not going to invest until it changes.

But, the issue with my Engi made me think.

While some might crow about “the manifesto,” wasn’t there a notion that rewards would be available through any style of play (WvW, PvP, PvE)? Not to say all rewards should be available in all modes, but traits should be something anyone can get from any mode.

Traits aren’t a reward, they’re a class function. They’ve been gated like they’re rewards though, even though you absolutely need them in order to actually play the classes as they’re intended to be played.

That is, I think, where they really just slammed their figurative faces right into the proverbial wall. …Repeatedly. For months on end without any sign of slowing.

I can promise you that if Anet did link any fix to the trait system to the new content and made that content paid while leaving those that don’t pay for it in limbo that I would not only walk away from the game, but i’d walk away from Anet. Such an idea would be so ill conceived and ill received that it would sink them, so I cannot fathom them actually doing that.

I’d also hope that they would float a fix BEFORE they try going live with HoT in any way shape or form simply because if it IS a new paid for expansion, I will not buy it unless this trait problem is fixed in a way that is well received by most.