Guild Wars 2

Serophous.9085:

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

maddoctor.2738:

Devata.6589:

maddoctor.2738:

So this thread is still all about arguing what is grind and what is not, arguing if GW2 is a grindy game or not and nothing about discussing changes to any of the game systems.

If you continue to debate what grind is, even though you know what the developers themselves feel about it, this one should get a lock soon. 3 pages and still no proposals for changes

I did see many proposals. Mine was putting items behind content.

So instead of allowing players to get whatever they want by doing whatever they want (play how you want?) you want to lock content behind specific content and have an impossible grind behind that content?

Yes, that’s pretty much it … the traditional MMO approach to getting loot. WE’ve already went over this in that LAST thread. The proposals I’ve seen so far simply reduce player’s ability to choose content; they don’t reduce grind at all.

How does is reduce player’s ability to choose content if all it does is ADD one new option? Working towards is directly. Again, as long as they are not account-bound you can still grind gold for it if that is what you like.

It would only be true for the items that are account-bound. But thats already the case with some items.

But the player IS working towards the item. By playing whatever they want, they are earning gold, the currency towards the item. Why does a brand new currency need to be implemented that would only come from one other specific source? How does even ADDING a new currency reduce grind? It DOESN’T. You are just shifting the grind to something else. And if you believe anet would make the token method faster, they are going to try and make it equal to other methods. In other words, the same amount of time. So that makes adding a new currency pointless once again.

You aren’t talking about reducing grind, all you have been doing is trying to actual make the grind either more annoying, or restricted.

It’s completely different when you do content for an item (so the item belongs to the content) or if you do ‘whatever’ to earn gold and then buy it, and then again, and again. Not to mention that this approach also means you are basically punishing yourself by not doing the content that rewards the most gold and it reduces the value of any item (that you can’t directly work for) to whatever is the easiest way to earn gold.

“Why does a brand new currency need to be implemented” Uhhm it does not.. No new currency, way to many currencies already in this game. Currency’s are more part of the problem then the solution.

“How does even ADDING a new currency reduce grind?” Where did you see my suggesting to put in a new currency. It would not be a currency coming from one place but the item you want. " It DOESN’T." That is why I did NOT suggest it.

Well your complete comment it based on something I did not suggest so there is not much more to say about it.

Also once again (how many times have I already repeated that in the last few comments? Just with other words) For any item that is not account-bound it is not more restricted, in fact it adds a new option, not take any away.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Devata.6589:

Still you dont understand that things change …
the cost to create GW1 vs GW2 is different and how much cost to maintain it , where everything a painted on hand and have other mechanics that the first game didnt have
Heck they have more ppl working atm , rather in the past …

Oow I do understand that. GW1 also managed to released is fastest expansion in half a year, I am talking about once a year.

Also earning more is earning more, nothing changed there.

Lo and behold, the forum goers have done it again…
Fighting for hours, days, even weeks on end.
Running in circles trying to attain that magical and elusive grand prize:

Consensus--This amulet radiates power and hums a low tune. (Special effect: Randomly plays General Lee’s Dixie horn when a player jumps with this item equipped.)

• +42 Power
• +42 Precision
• +42 Toughness
• +42 Vitality
• +42 Condition Damage
• +42 Ferocity
• +42 Healing Power
• +100% to Magic Find

This thread is such a grind.

Devata.6589:

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Devata.6589:

Still you dont understand that things change …
the cost to create GW1 vs GW2 is different and how much cost to maintain it , where everything a painted on hand and have other mechanics that the first game didnt have
Heck they have more ppl working atm , rather in the past …

Oow I do understand that. GW1 also managed to released is fastest expansion in half a year, I am talking about once a year.

Also earning more is earning more, nothing changed there.

Do you know how many where the population of GW1 and how much boxxes they sold every year ?
How much money they make in GW1 per year ?
Did they earn more and nothing changed ?
What they didnt change ?

As an WoW player to another WoW player , can we embarass each other in whatever post we make and offer an entairntainment to them forum ?

This thread contrubutes nothing to the already ingame system and we keep making circles over circles

Devata.6589:

Serophous.9085:

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

maddoctor.2738:

Devata.6589:

maddoctor.2738:

So this thread is still all about arguing what is grind and what is not, arguing if GW2 is a grindy game or not and nothing about discussing changes to any of the game systems.

If you continue to debate what grind is, even though you know what the developers themselves feel about it, this one should get a lock soon. 3 pages and still no proposals for changes

I did see many proposals. Mine was putting items behind content.

So instead of allowing players to get whatever they want by doing whatever they want (play how you want?) you want to lock content behind specific content and have an impossible grind behind that content?

Yes, that’s pretty much it … the traditional MMO approach to getting loot. WE’ve already went over this in that LAST thread. The proposals I’ve seen so far simply reduce player’s ability to choose content; they don’t reduce grind at all.

How does is reduce player’s ability to choose content if all it does is ADD one new option? Working towards is directly. Again, as long as they are not account-bound you can still grind gold for it if that is what you like.

It would only be true for the items that are account-bound. But thats already the case with some items.

But the player IS working towards the item. By playing whatever they want, they are earning gold, the currency towards the item. Why does a brand new currency need to be implemented that would only come from one other specific source? How does even ADDING a new currency reduce grind? It DOESN’T. You are just shifting the grind to something else. And if you believe anet would make the token method faster, they are going to try and make it equal to other methods. In other words, the same amount of time. So that makes adding a new currency pointless once again.

You aren’t talking about reducing grind, all you have been doing is trying to actual make the grind either more annoying, or restricted.

It’s completely different when you do content for an item (so the item belongs to the content) or if you do ‘whatever’ to earn gold and then buy it, and then again, and again. Not to mention that this approach also means you are basically punishing yourself by not doing the content that rewards the most gold and it reduces the value of any item (that you can’t directly work for) to whatever is the easiest way to earn gold.

“Why does a brand new currency need to be implemented” Uhhm it does not.. No new currency, way to many currencies already in this game. Currency’s are more part of the problem then the solution.

“How does even ADDING a new currency reduce grind?” Where did you see my suggesting to put in a new currency. It would not be a currency coming from one place but the item you want. " It DOESN’T." That is why I did NOT suggest it.

Well your complete comment it based on something I did not suggest so there is not much more to say about it.

Also once again (how many times have I already repeated that in the last few comments? Just with other words) For any item that is not account-bound it is not more restricted, in fact it adds a new option, not take any away.

Because adding that new method does nothing else in solving the grind problem. ITS STILL A GRIND. Adding another option, DOES NOT REMOVE THE GRIND. In fact, adding the option would just make no sense.

Make a lever that says “pull here for loot”. Make a second lever that says the exact same thing right beside it. What is the point in the second method? It does the exact same thing, but resources and time were wasted to set it up.

Just give it up already. This whole crusade of yours hasn’t been to try and solve the grind problem, but either make it worse, or more tedious, or more pointless by wasting dev time. All for the sake for you to not grind for gold, which as the main currency being given and received, lets it opened up to allow the player to do and play whatever they want to get said item. Putting an item “behind content” is stupid to say, as a player doing anything like events or dungeons IS content, and getting gold from that CONTENT is working towards getting the item.

eithinan.9841:

phys.7689:

analogies and hypotheticals are used to test and evaluate conceptual models, but if you dont like them, i will avoid using them when talking to you specifically(if i remember).
anyhow
Accurate analogies yes, 99.9% of them on this forum misrepresent the subjects. The only one that I have seen in 2+ years here that was remotely accurate was the one about 50$ on the ground and the TP. Thanks for that but it doesn’t really matter because ill just [snip] it

dungeon tokens meets anets definition of grind, but actually their definition is pretty poor, it doesnt consider the magnitude of repetitions, and it would mean that as long as you have two methods of doing something, it can never be a grind.
Actually they don’t meet the Anet definition because the lack of those tokens does not prevent you from participating in any content available, not…

That said, anet still has a way out in this case, as you can buy dungeon runs with gold. So i guess even dungeon tokens wouldnt be considered grind by anet, as it has at least two methods of aquisition.
…because of this.

But yeah, as i said, Anet says they want the game to be about the journey, and i think rewarding the journey is probably the best way to highlight that.

I agree and so does anet that for long term goals there should be a tangible progression to the end reward. But there is a difference between that observable tangible progression and getting rewarded for progressing towards a reward.

what i am suggesting is not getting rewarded for progressing towards a reward, what i am saying is make progressing rewarding itself, and less about the reward at the end.

the reward at the end, should be a culmination of the rewards before it.
Like within the leveling system, you see this type of progression. Its not like you hit 80 and become a god. In fact hitting 80 is just a small increase in power.

Basically the reason things feel grindy, is generally when progressing feels unrewarding. Then everything is about reaching the end.
So what causes something to feel unrewarding?
a lack of desirable reward for the activity
too long of a time between start and reward
thing required for progress has low entertainment.

now of course you arent going to get rid of all of this at once, some of it is a matter of degrees, and some of it will never hit the sweet spot for all people. But you can take it into consideration when designing rewards.

Serophous.9085:

Devata.6589:

Serophous.9085:

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

maddoctor.2738:

Devata.6589:

maddoctor.2738:

So this thread is still all about arguing what is grind and what is not, arguing if GW2 is a grindy game or not and nothing about discussing changes to any of the game systems.

If you continue to debate what grind is, even though you know what the developers themselves feel about it, this one should get a lock soon. 3 pages and still no proposals for changes

I did see many proposals. Mine was putting items behind content.

So instead of allowing players to get whatever they want by doing whatever they want (play how you want?) you want to lock content behind specific content and have an impossible grind behind that content?

Yes, that’s pretty much it … the traditional MMO approach to getting loot. WE’ve already went over this in that LAST thread. The proposals I’ve seen so far simply reduce player’s ability to choose content; they don’t reduce grind at all.

How does is reduce player’s ability to choose content if all it does is ADD one new option? Working towards is directly. Again, as long as they are not account-bound you can still grind gold for it if that is what you like.

It would only be true for the items that are account-bound. But thats already the case with some items.

But the player IS working towards the item. By playing whatever they want, they are earning gold, the currency towards the item. Why does a brand new currency need to be implemented that would only come from one other specific source? How does even ADDING a new currency reduce grind? It DOESN’T. You are just shifting the grind to something else. And if you believe anet would make the token method faster, they are going to try and make it equal to other methods. In other words, the same amount of time. So that makes adding a new currency pointless once again.

You aren’t talking about reducing grind, all you have been doing is trying to actual make the grind either more annoying, or restricted.

It’s completely different when you do content for an item (so the item belongs to the content) or if you do ‘whatever’ to earn gold and then buy it, and then again, and again. Not to mention that this approach also means you are basically punishing yourself by not doing the content that rewards the most gold and it reduces the value of any item (that you can’t directly work for) to whatever is the easiest way to earn gold.

“Why does a brand new currency need to be implemented” Uhhm it does not.. No new currency, way to many currencies already in this game. Currency’s are more part of the problem then the solution.

“How does even ADDING a new currency reduce grind?” Where did you see my suggesting to put in a new currency. It would not be a currency coming from one place but the item you want. " It DOESN’T." That is why I did NOT suggest it.

Well your complete comment it based on something I did not suggest so there is not much more to say about it.

Also once again (how many times have I already repeated that in the last few comments? Just with other words) For any item that is not account-bound it is not more restricted, in fact it adds a new option, not take any away.

Because adding that new method does nothing else in solving the grind problem. ITS STILL A GRIND. Adding another option, DOES NOT REMOVE THE GRIND. In fact, adding the option would just make no sense.

Make a lever that says “pull here for loot”. Make a second lever that says the exact same thing right beside it. What is the point in the second method? It does the exact same thing, but resources and time were wasted to set it up.

Just give it up already. This whole crusade of yours hasn’t been to try and solve the grind problem, but either make it worse, or more tedious, or more pointless by wasting dev time. All for the sake for you to not grind for gold, which as the main currency being given and received, lets it opened up to allow the player to do and play whatever they want to get said item. Putting an item “behind content” is stupid to say, as a player doing anything like events or dungeons IS content, and getting gold from that CONTENT is working towards getting the item.

If that second option is no grind or less grind the change it makes is that going for that item now has an option that is no grind or less of a grind.

I think that is a obvious change, and one for the better.

Really, Grind, is there anywhere in this game where you do the following:

Full Definition of GRIND

transitive verb
1
: to reduce to powder or small fragments by friction (as in a mill or with the teeth)
2
: to wear down, polish, or sharpen by friction <grind an ax>
3
a : oppress, harass
b : to weaken or destroy gradually —usually used with down <poverty ground her spirit down>
4
a : to press together with a rotating motion <grind the teeth>
b : to rub or press harshly <ground the cigarette out>
5
: to operate or produce by turning a crank <grind a hand organ>
intransitive verb
1
: to perform the operation of grinding
2
: to become pulverized, polished, or sharpened by friction
3
: to move with difficulty or friction especially so as to make a grating noise <gears grinding>
4
: drudge; especially : to study hard <grind for an exam>
5
: to rotate the hips in an erotic manner

other than potentially drudge, but unless you’ve made up a new definition of Grind, there is none. Now, having to repeat the same content ad nauseum…that would be more along the lines of repetitiveness. IMO, grind, if that is what you chose to call it, is what you personally make it out it out to be…therefore, one persons ‘grind’ is another persons fun.

Azhure.1857:

Lo and behold, the forum goers have done it again…
Fighting for hours, days, even weeks on end.
Running in circles trying to attain that magical and elusive grand prize:

Consensus--This amulet radiates power and hums a low tune. (Special effect: Randomly plays General Lee’s Dixie horn when a player jumps with this item equipped.)

• +42 Power
• +42 Precision
• +42 Toughness
• +42 Vitality
• +42 Condition Damage
• +42 Ferocity
• +42 Healing Power
• +100% to Magic Find

This thread is such a grind.

It’s optional—-you don’t have to read it—so therefore it is not a grind. LOL

Devata.6589:

IndigoSundown.5419:

- snip -

“ANet has to please all of these people”. So try and please the groups you mention here? Put all those items behind specific content, don’t make them account-bound. There you go.

Personally I think some items should be account-bound but just to solve your problem.

While the thought in your former paragraph would cater to you and those who think like you, it would do nothing for those who like farming gold to buy what they want, and who don’t want rewards tied to specific content.

As to your latter sentence, what does account-bound have to do with anything? Account bound is a way to force people to do the content where drops happen, craft junk themselves, etc. Account bound is the anti-gold method.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Devata.6589:

IndigoSundown.5419:

- snip -

“ANet has to please all of these people”. So try and please the groups you mention here? Put all those items behind specific content, don’t make them account-bound. There you go.

Personally I think some items should be account-bound but just to solve your problem.

While the thought in your former paragraph would cater to you and those who think like you, it would do nothing for those who like farming gold to buy what they want, and who don’t want rewards tied to specific content.

As to your latter sentence, what does account-bound have to do with anything? Account bound is a way to force people to do the content where drops happen, craft junk themselves, etc. Account bound is the anti-gold method.

actually though i dont agree with devatas idea that it isnt grindy if its a direct drop, he has always said its fine to make it buyable by gold.

so people who like getting things with gold would still be able to buy things in his system. The main difference is there would be fewer drops that you cannot obtain directly

Devata.6589:

Serophous.9085:

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

maddoctor.2738:

Devata.6589:

maddoctor.2738:

So this thread is still all about arguing what is grind and what is not, arguing if GW2 is a grindy game or not and nothing about discussing changes to any of the game systems.

If you continue to debate what grind is, even though you know what the developers themselves feel about it, this one should get a lock soon. 3 pages and still no proposals for changes

I did see many proposals. Mine was putting items behind content.

So instead of allowing players to get whatever they want by doing whatever they want (play how you want?) you want to lock content behind specific content and have an impossible grind behind that content?

Yes, that’s pretty much it … the traditional MMO approach to getting loot. WE’ve already went over this in that LAST thread. The proposals I’ve seen so far simply reduce player’s ability to choose content; they don’t reduce grind at all.

How does is reduce player’s ability to choose content if all it does is ADD one new option? Working towards is directly. Again, as long as they are not account-bound you can still grind gold for it if that is what you like.

It would only be true for the items that are account-bound. But thats already the case with some items.

But the player IS working towards the item. By playing whatever they want, they are earning gold, the currency towards the item. Why does a brand new currency need to be implemented that would only come from one other specific source? How does even ADDING a new currency reduce grind? It DOESN’T. You are just shifting the grind to something else. And if you believe anet would make the token method faster, they are going to try and make it equal to other methods. In other words, the same amount of time. So that makes adding a new currency pointless once again.

You aren’t talking about reducing grind, all you have been doing is trying to actual make the grind either more annoying, or restricted.

It’s completely different when you do content for an item (so the item belongs to the content) or if you do ‘whatever’ to earn gold and then buy it, and then again, and again. Not to mention that this approach also means you are basically punishing yourself by not doing the content that rewards the most gold and it reduces the value of any item (that you can’t directly work for) to whatever is the easiest way to earn gold.

“Why does a brand new currency need to be implemented” Uhhm it does not.. No new currency, way to many currencies already in this game. Currency’s are more part of the problem then the solution.

“How does even ADDING a new currency reduce grind?” Where did you see my suggesting to put in a new currency. It would not be a currency coming from one place but the item you want. " It DOESN’T." That is why I did NOT suggest it.

Well your complete comment it based on something I did not suggest so there is not much more to say about it.

Also once again (how many times have I already repeated that in the last few comments? Just with other words) For any item that is not account-bound it is not more restricted, in fact it adds a new option, not take any away.

What people are really punishing themselves for is impatience.

To me you punish yourself by playing a game to get something you absolutely don’t need but want to have. What’s the difference if you get that thing now or in a month, or in two months?

If you’re going to ruin your game experience by farming efficiently the fault is yours. It’s okay to have long term goals. There’s nothing wrong with that.

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Serophous.9085:

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

maddoctor.2738:

Devata.6589:

maddoctor.2738:

So this thread is still all about arguing what is grind and what is not, arguing if GW2 is a grindy game or not and nothing about discussing changes to any of the game systems.

If you continue to debate what grind is, even though you know what the developers themselves feel about it, this one should get a lock soon. 3 pages and still no proposals for changes

I did see many proposals. Mine was putting items behind content.

So instead of allowing players to get whatever they want by doing whatever they want (play how you want?) you want to lock content behind specific content and have an impossible grind behind that content?

Yes, that’s pretty much it … the traditional MMO approach to getting loot. WE’ve already went over this in that LAST thread. The proposals I’ve seen so far simply reduce player’s ability to choose content; they don’t reduce grind at all.

How does is reduce player’s ability to choose content if all it does is ADD one new option? Working towards is directly. Again, as long as they are not account-bound you can still grind gold for it if that is what you like.

It would only be true for the items that are account-bound. But thats already the case with some items.

But the player IS working towards the item. By playing whatever they want, they are earning gold, the currency towards the item. Why does a brand new currency need to be implemented that would only come from one other specific source? How does even ADDING a new currency reduce grind? It DOESN’T. You are just shifting the grind to something else. And if you believe anet would make the token method faster, they are going to try and make it equal to other methods. In other words, the same amount of time. So that makes adding a new currency pointless once again.

You aren’t talking about reducing grind, all you have been doing is trying to actual make the grind either more annoying, or restricted.

It’s completely different when you do content for an item (so the item belongs to the content) or if you do ‘whatever’ to earn gold and then buy it, and then again, and again. Not to mention that this approach also means you are basically punishing yourself by not doing the content that rewards the most gold and it reduces the value of any item (that you can’t directly work for) to whatever is the easiest way to earn gold.

“Why does a brand new currency need to be implemented” Uhhm it does not.. No new currency, way to many currencies already in this game. Currency’s are more part of the problem then the solution.

“How does even ADDING a new currency reduce grind?” Where did you see my suggesting to put in a new currency. It would not be a currency coming from one place but the item you want. " It DOESN’T." That is why I did NOT suggest it.

Well your complete comment it based on something I did not suggest so there is not much more to say about it.

Also once again (how many times have I already repeated that in the last few comments? Just with other words) For any item that is not account-bound it is not more restricted, in fact it adds a new option, not take any away.

What people are really punishing themselves for is impatience.

To me you punish yourself by playing a game to get something you absolutely don’t need but want to have. What’s the difference if you get that thing now or in a month, or in two months?

If you’re going to ruin your game experience by farming efficiently the fault is yours. It’s okay to have long term goals. There’s nothing wrong with that.

Because you dont get to use the thing while your are seeking it.

Waiting too much kills joy. Patience is nice, but like everything, its best in moderation.

Serophous.9085:

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

maddoctor.2738:

Devata.6589:

maddoctor.2738:

So this thread is still all about arguing what is grind and what is not, arguing if GW2 is a grindy game or not and nothing about discussing changes to any of the game systems.

If you continue to debate what grind is, even though you know what the developers themselves feel about it, this one should get a lock soon. 3 pages and still no proposals for changes

I did see many proposals. Mine was putting items behind content.

So instead of allowing players to get whatever they want by doing whatever they want (play how you want?) you want to lock content behind specific content and have an impossible grind behind that content?

Yes, that’s pretty much it … the traditional MMO approach to getting loot. WE’ve already went over this in that LAST thread. The proposals I’ve seen so far simply reduce player’s ability to choose content; they don’t reduce grind at all.

How does is reduce player’s ability to choose content if all it does is ADD one new option? Working towards is directly. Again, as long as they are not account-bound you can still grind gold for it if that is what you like.

It would only be true for the items that are account-bound. But thats already the case with some items.

But the player IS working towards the item. By playing whatever they want, they are earning gold, the currency towards the item. Why does a brand new currency need to be implemented that would only come from one other specific source? How does even ADDING a new currency reduce grind? It DOESN’T. You are just shifting the grind to something else. And if you believe anet would make the token method faster, they are going to try and make it equal to other methods. In other words, the same amount of time. So that makes adding a new currency pointless once again.

You aren’t talking about reducing grind, all you have been doing is trying to actual make the grind either more annoying, or restricted.

Exactly. The idea just recasts the grind into some other form that is more pleasing to some players, but it still exists. Somehow, they have convinced themselves it’s a better option. Adding more avenues to allow grind is not a way to fix grinding. That’s been my biggest issue with his suggestion all through 40+ pages of these threads. Doesn’t seem to want to acknowledge that.

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Serophous.9085:

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

maddoctor.2738:

Devata.6589:

maddoctor.2738:

So this thread is still all about arguing what is grind and what is not, arguing if GW2 is a grindy game or not and nothing about discussing changes to any of the game systems.

If you continue to debate what grind is, even though you know what the developers themselves feel about it, this one should get a lock soon. 3 pages and still no proposals for changes

I did see many proposals. Mine was putting items behind content.

So instead of allowing players to get whatever they want by doing whatever they want (play how you want?) you want to lock content behind specific content and have an impossible grind behind that content?

Yes, that’s pretty much it … the traditional MMO approach to getting loot. WE’ve already went over this in that LAST thread. The proposals I’ve seen so far simply reduce player’s ability to choose content; they don’t reduce grind at all.

How does is reduce player’s ability to choose content if all it does is ADD one new option? Working towards is directly. Again, as long as they are not account-bound you can still grind gold for it if that is what you like.

It would only be true for the items that are account-bound. But thats already the case with some items.

But the player IS working towards the item. By playing whatever they want, they are earning gold, the currency towards the item. Why does a brand new currency need to be implemented that would only come from one other specific source? How does even ADDING a new currency reduce grind? It DOESN’T. You are just shifting the grind to something else. And if you believe anet would make the token method faster, they are going to try and make it equal to other methods. In other words, the same amount of time. So that makes adding a new currency pointless once again.

You aren’t talking about reducing grind, all you have been doing is trying to actual make the grind either more annoying, or restricted.

It’s completely different when you do content for an item (so the item belongs to the content) or if you do ‘whatever’ to earn gold and then buy it, and then again, and again. Not to mention that this approach also means you are basically punishing yourself by not doing the content that rewards the most gold and it reduces the value of any item (that you can’t directly work for) to whatever is the easiest way to earn gold.

“Why does a brand new currency need to be implemented” Uhhm it does not.. No new currency, way to many currencies already in this game. Currency’s are more part of the problem then the solution.

“How does even ADDING a new currency reduce grind?” Where did you see my suggesting to put in a new currency. It would not be a currency coming from one place but the item you want. " It DOESN’T." That is why I did NOT suggest it.

Well your complete comment it based on something I did not suggest so there is not much more to say about it.

Also once again (how many times have I already repeated that in the last few comments? Just with other words) For any item that is not account-bound it is not more restricted, in fact it adds a new option, not take any away.

What people are really punishing themselves for is impatience.

To me you punish yourself by playing a game to get something you absolutely don’t need but want to have. What’s the difference if you get that thing now or in a month, or in two months?

If you’re going to ruin your game experience by farming efficiently the fault is yours. It’s okay to have long term goals. There’s nothing wrong with that.

Because you dont get to use the thing while your are seeking it.

Waiting too much kills joy. Patience is nice, but like everything, its best in moderation.

This I agree with. Precursors in this game were done badly and I’m glad that’s finally being fixed, but I’ve managed to get pretty much everything I want in this game without grinding.

I do what I want, when I want, tick away at a bunch of things each time I do them, and eventually they get done. Even something like world complete which many think is a grind. I just do a few things here and there, every time I’m in a zone. I’ts not a grind to light a torch or kill one guy as I’m running to something. It’s just something I do while running.

Eventually I get into a map and there are 3 points of interest and a vista or something and I say, hey I can finish that…and I do.

I have world complete on 4 characters.

The only time I’ve completed a zone to complete it is when the guild is doing it and I’m hanging out.

Obtena.7952:

Exactly. The idea just recasts the grind into some other form that is more pleasing to some players, but it still exists. Somehow, they have convinced themselves it’s a better option. Adding more avenues to allow grind is not a way to fix grinding. That’s been my biggest issue with his suggestion all through 40+ pages of these threads. Doesn’t seem to want to acknowledge that.

And that’s why all his suggestions are just laughable and pointless. As the thread that HE EVEN MADE, “A Grind is still grind”. This isn’t a thread to solve the issue, this isnt a thread to even acknowledge the issue. This is a thread by one person that cant seem to let it down that his ideas are bad, they don’t fix anything, they are just putting a different set of clothing on it and saying “See! Its different! It works and acts the same, but now its in a different suit!”

A Grind is still grind.

Why is grind a problem and why can’t we solve it? People have already stated it in this thread, but either ignored it and didn’t believe it. The first problem of grind is, we, as gamers, can not come to an agreement on what grind even is. Anet gave their definition and that was that, but people here cannot accept it because it isn’t their definition.

What’s grind to one person isn’t grind to another. Someone runs something 10 times, doesnt call it a grind, someone runs it 5, says it is. How do you solve that? How do you solve something that is known differently between each individual player?

The only solution for a developer is to pick their own definition and go by it. Will it work out? Who knows? It may, it may not, and when it starts to not, then there can be a review. But, other than high level fractals, who here has been denied access to any other content by the game because they didn’t have the “best gear”? Sure, you may get other players denying you party entry for not having it, but I have YET to come across anything implemented that I wanted to do that required a full set of ascended. I’ve played on my main who does have ascended, and I’ve played on alts that have mixtures of exotics and rares, and not even the correct sigils and runes, and I still play what content I want and not have been held back because of the gear I wear.

Grind is still grind. Again, so pointless of a statement as it is a thread title. Of course it is. No matter how you dress it up or change it to be “less grind”, its still a grind. You can’t make grind less grind because of people themselves and their feelings to what grind is to THEM. The best any developer can do is try to make the grind “fun”, and even that will fail as not everyone will see it as fun.

I’m done with this thread after this. Its already been shown the thread’s purpose isn’t to reduce grind, but to just shift it to something else. Grind is still grind. So I’m done talking to brick walls and running in circles. I’m going to do what we should be doing and just playing a game and having fun.

Now, let this post rot away and be ignored like the others while the tail chasing continues.

Here’s the end all solution for the argument of needing a new currency. Karma. It’s completely under-utilized and it needs to be used to directly purchase the items that are simply too expensive and growing in expense in the TP that are used for Ascended gear. Also people need to realize that not everything is equal in this game, some people do continue to experience problems getting any kind of meaningful loot right now! Whole accounts are cut off from it which adds to the frustration.

tigirius.9014:

Here’s the end all solution for the argument of needing a new currency. Karma. It’s completely under-utilized and it needs to be used to directly purchase the items that are simply too expensive and growing in expense in the TP that are used for Ascended gear. Also people need to realize that not everything is equal in this game, some people do continue to experience problems getting any kind of meaningful loot right now! Whole accounts are cut off from it which adds to the frustration.

Interestingly enough, Karma might be a satisfactory solution so long as you can Account Bind things acquired with it. The reason? Karma is significantly easier to accumulate than Gold, and the potential to transmute Karma → Gold needs to be throttled very carefully.

This thread is bad and you should all feel bad.

Now I feel bad for even participating.

Bad bad bad.

Please stop.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

tigirius.9014:

Here’s the end all solution for the argument of needing a new currency. Karma. It’s completely under-utilized and it needs to be used to directly purchase the items that are simply too expensive and growing in expense in the TP that are used for Ascended gear. Also people need to realize that not everything is equal in this game, some people do continue to experience problems getting any kind of meaningful loot right now! Whole accounts are cut off from it which adds to the frustration.

Interestingly enough, Karma might be a satisfactory solution so long as you can Account Bind things acquired with it. The reason? Karma is significantly easier to accumulate than Gold, and the potential to transmute Karma -> Gold needs to be throttled very carefully.

I don’t know. I have like 4 million karma sitting in my bank. Unless the karma stuff that comes out is VERY expensive, which will put off new people, people like me will just get everything very quickly.

One of the reasons new currencies are added is to get people out in the world doing stuff. Karma would make me item rich perhaps, but objective poor.

The first problem of grind is, we, as gamers, can not come to an agreement on what grind even is.

Doing something again and again in order to receive some pieces or gold to craft/buy something. This definition perfectly suits legendaries. You can’t just do a bit of jumping puzzles, some wvw, some fractals, pvp, dungeons, champ trains, world boss farming and get your 3000 gold. If you will want to buy legendary, you have to grind it. If you want to craft a legendary, you have to grind too.

Here’s my point: best items in the game must be a reward for player’s skills. Crafting or buying legendary has nothing to do with skill. Receiving ascended rings you want and fractal skins you want in fractals is all about just grinding them – drop is too random. You can’t just beat lvl 50 fractals and be sure that in the end there will be guarantied fractal skin drop, not exact skin, but at least something.

Reddit post about fractal skins drop rates:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2ht998/absurdity_of_fractal_weapon_skin_drop_rates_math/

Currently farming fractal skins is better at not even highest possible fractals:

best bet right now for getting a fractal weapon skin is running a lvl 31-40 bracket fractal

Fractal skins = grind, no matter which definition of grind you’re using.

It’s not challenging at all. I know that legendary acquisition process won’t be changed. But in future updates it would be nice to have some better systems. It might be receiving items/skins via achievements, so you will get what you want only if certain conditions are met. Yes, this way should make dungeons a lot harder. And this game is casual-oriented when it’s about pve. Well… Not sure if devs will ever think about such changes because… you know.

Fortunately in this game you don’t HAVE to grind (it’s not required), but there are numerous items (optional) that can’t be acquired without repeating content over and over. For this reason, the game appears like a grind for some people, but not for others, based on which of those optional things they go for.

So, here comes the question: “How to eliminate grind?” The reason this discussion even exists is because of RNG loot. Because there is a chance to get things that is far lower than 100%, players have to repeat content repeatedly to get what they want.

Is that the only problem that causes repetition?

Here’s my point: best items in the game must be a reward for player’s skills. Crafting or buying legendary has nothing to do with skill. Receiving ascended rings you want and fractal skins you want in fractals is all about just grinding them – drop is too random. You can’t just beat lvl 50 fractals and be sure that in the end there will be guarantied fractal skin drop, not exact skin, but at least something.

Mini Liadri (and the title) comes to mind as a reward for player skill. The mini is account bound, and everyone that has it shows how skilled they are. The mini has a 100% chance of dropping once you beat Liadri. Can all items be like Liadri and “drop” with 100% chance?

The answer is no, because Liadri isn’t supposed to be repeatable, it’s an extremely hard encounter that tests player skills and doesn’t offer much reward otherwise. There is no reason to repeat Liadri once you get the mini (unless you just want to test yourself again). If the entire game was like this, even with easier content, then there would be no replayability at all. Do A until you finish it, get the unique skin/title/whatever if offers, forget A even exist. You can’t do an MMORPG this way at all.

Extremely hard content (like Liadri) can use this method of acquisition, but not everyday “easy” content. Once players are done with it, they need an extra reward from it. Something else to keep them going there, just a unique skin isn’t enough to entice players forever.

Vayne.8563:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

tigirius.9014:

Here’s the end all solution for the argument of needing a new currency. Karma. It’s completely under-utilized and it needs to be used to directly purchase the items that are simply too expensive and growing in expense in the TP that are used for Ascended gear. Also people need to realize that not everything is equal in this game, some people do continue to experience problems getting any kind of meaningful loot right now! Whole accounts are cut off from it which adds to the frustration.

Interestingly enough, Karma might be a satisfactory solution so long as you can Account Bind things acquired with it. The reason? Karma is significantly easier to accumulate than Gold, and the potential to transmute Karma -> Gold needs to be throttled very carefully.

I don’t know. I have like 4 million karma sitting in my bank. Unless the karma stuff that comes out is VERY expensive, which will put off new people, people like me will just get everything very quickly.

One of the reasons new currencies are added is to get people out in the world doing stuff. Karma would make me item rich perhaps, but objective poor.

OMGaaaaawd you might actually be able to GASP progress I can imagine how terrible that must be! Actually getting the items you need to complete the progress you’re doing in progression that is simply such a terrible idea I know, actually moving forward with something you put the time into in completing. I know I know who would have thought that actually reaching your goals would be such a boring and tedious thing. I mean who actually achieves their achievements with time spent doing things like oh I dunno playing the game! Totally new concept! LOL /sarcasm

I always find these arguments funny because of that fact like seriously, how terrible would it be to actually be able to progress. You know what I was doing before coming back here and checking these replies?

I progressed in another title I’m playing right now. You know how quickly I did it on one of my alts. three days for one piece a gear. Guess how, I did 2 dailies a day and a series of passive missions with my followers, got the currency turned it in and bam another piece of gear.

Guess what I’m going to do after getting geared? Fish.

These arguments are so funny really they are….exactly when did actually progressing in a game become the most terrible axis of evil event in MMO gaming? Like when did it become the equivalent of <insert the worst imaginable crime possible> to actually have not just equal access to progression as everyone else but to actually complete it in a reasonable amount of time to oh I don’t know enjoy the rest of the game?

smh

tigirius.9014:

Vayne.8563:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

tigirius.9014:

Here’s the end all solution for the argument of needing a new currency. Karma. It’s completely under-utilized and it needs to be used to directly purchase the items that are simply too expensive and growing in expense in the TP that are used for Ascended gear. Also people need to realize that not everything is equal in this game, some people do continue to experience problems getting any kind of meaningful loot right now! Whole accounts are cut off from it which adds to the frustration.

Interestingly enough, Karma might be a satisfactory solution so long as you can Account Bind things acquired with it. The reason? Karma is significantly easier to accumulate than Gold, and the potential to transmute Karma -> Gold needs to be throttled very carefully.

I don’t know. I have like 4 million karma sitting in my bank. Unless the karma stuff that comes out is VERY expensive, which will put off new people, people like me will just get everything very quickly.

One of the reasons new currencies are added is to get people out in the world doing stuff. Karma would make me item rich perhaps, but objective poor.

OMGaaaaawd you might actually be able to GASP progress I can imagine how terrible that must be! Actually getting the items you need to complete the progress you’re doing in progression that is simply such a terrible idea I know, actually moving forward with something you put the time into in completing. I know I know who would have thought that actually reaching your goals would be such a boring and tedious thing. I mean who actually achieves their achievements with time spent doing things like oh I dunno playing the game! Totally new concept! LOL /sarcasm

I always find these arguments funny because of that fact like seriously, how terrible would it be to actually be able to progress. You know what I was doing before coming back here and checking these replies?

I progressed in another title I’m playing right now. You know how quickly I did it on one of my alts. three days for one piece a gear. Guess how, I did 2 dailies a day and a series of passive missions with my followers, got the currency turned it in and bam another piece of gear.

Guess what I’m going to do after getting geared? Fish.

These arguments are so funny really they are….exactly when did actually progressing in a game become the most terrible axis of evil event in MMO gaming? Like when did it become the equivalent of <insert the worst imaginable crime possible> to actually have not just equal access to progression as everyone else but to actually complete it in a reasonable amount of time to oh I don’t know enjoy the rest of the game?

smh

Nice sarcasm. My response didn’t deserve it, but whatever…

As for what I said, you’re not actually paying attention to it. At the end of the day all ANY MMORPG is is a list of things to do. At least in PvE that’s true, and I"m a PvE’er. You say you can progress, but if you progress instantly there’s nothing to play for. You’re in the exact same boat you were before that came out. Because of part progress is the journey, it’s not only about getting the shiny for some of us.

It’s like planning a vacation and going on it and coming home with souvenirs, instead of skipping the vacation and just getting the souvenirs.

Which is to say for me, it would be pointless.

maddoctor.2738:

Fortunately in this game you don’t HAVE to grind (it’s not required), but there are numerous items (optional) that can’t be acquired without repeating content over and over. For this reason, the game appears like a grind for some people, but not for others, based on which of those optional things they go for.

I don’t think that it is a proper argument. All items in this game are optional. Playing this game itself is optional. So this logic might be applied to every single game. You don’t need any items to login into any mmo, stay in your default city and chat with people. Playing is optional.

maddoctor.2738:

So, here comes the question: “How to eliminate grind?” The reason this discussion even exists is because of RNG loot. Because there is a chance to get things that is far lower than 100%, players have to repeat content repeatedly to get what they want.

Is that the only problem that causes repetition?

It is certainly one of the main problems.

Another problem (or part of problem above) is random stat destribution on items. For example, it is well known that condition damage is very weak in pve, so if you will get ascended ring in fractals with condition damage stat on it, you will most likely not be happy.

CutePicsHunter.7430:

maddoctor.2738:

Fortunately in this game you don’t HAVE to grind (it’s not required), but there are numerous items (optional) that can’t be acquired without repeating content over and over. For this reason, the game appears like a grind for some people, but not for others, based on which of those optional things they go for.

I don’t think that it is a proper argument. All items in this game are optional. Playing this game itself is optional. So this logic might be applied to every single game. You don’t need any items to login into any mmo, stay in your default city and chat with people. Playing is optional.

Well this has been discussed a lot before. The basic idea is that something is not “optional” if it blocks you from experiencing content. And “optional” is anything that is only pretty and doesn’t lock you out of content. Even the developers who make this game make the split between optional and required grind, so no need to say it’s not a valid argument, if it’s where the developers are basing the entire game on.

maddoctor.2738:

So, here comes the question: “How to eliminate grind?” The reason this discussion even exists is because of RNG loot. Because there is a chance to get things that is far lower than 100%, players have to repeat content repeatedly to get what they want.

Is that the only problem that causes repetition?

It is certainly one of the main problems.

Another problem (or part of problem above) is random stat destribution on items. For example, it is well known that condition damage is very weak in pve, so if you will get ascended ring in fractals with condition damage stat on it, you will most likely not be happy.

Now imagine this situation:

You get a Fractal Sword but already have it, your friend gets a Fractal Dagger that they already have, you want a Fractal Dagger, they want a Fractal Sword. Both players are super unhappy.

Why does RNG FEEL better in a more traditional MMORPG system? Let’s do a comparisson between the two, by imagining how Fractals would work in a more traditional loot distribution system:

In the traditional MMORPG system, loot comes for the party as a whole. Then, it’s up to the players to split said loot using the dreaded “Need/Greed” system. To over simplify things, let’s say a Fractal Skin has a 20% chance to drop (and then you get a random one), in a group of 5 you have 4% of getting that item.

To keep the same rarity, the same item in Guild Wars 2 would have to be at around 4% chance as well. This means in some runs nobody will get anything, while in some rare ones, more than one person will get it.

Here is the huge difference: in a more traditional system, if you play content again and again, your chances of getting the item you want are rising high. The more people in your group that already have the item, the higher your chances (they won’t roll for it). In GW2 everyone rolls, so no matter how many runs you do, it’s always a 4% chance.

It gets even worse for the loot system in GW2 when it comes to guildies/friends playing together. In the traditional system, at maximum in 25 runs you will get the item (you are 100% to get it in 25 runs). In the GW2 system, you might run the content 10000 times and still not get it.

In the traditional system, there is NO RNG to get anything, it just takes time and patience. In the GW2 system, it’s purely random. That’s why I think grind and RNG feel so much worse in GW2 than in other MMORPGs.

tigirius.9014:

I always find these arguments funny because of that fact like seriously, how terrible would it be to actually be able to progress. You know what I was doing before coming back here and checking these replies?

If it’s anything like me, it’d be working a real actual job and grinding out money to pay off my college tuition bill, save for a car payment, and possibly scrape enough extra money on the side to afford to drop cash on some MTG.

But I’m guessing it was something not very integral to actual life . . .

I progressed in another title I’m playing right now.

Yup. Sigh. Sometimes I feel ashamed to actually enjoy playing games in my spare time.

Here’s the issue – Devata, our esteemed and infallible OP, has decided the grind in the game is heretical and needs to be purged. Or at least it needs to be shifted into a bunch of smaller grinds with specific targeted acquisition purposes. The concept of it not being a grind if it doesn’t fit into the single umbrella of “earn Gold, buy off TP”, for instance.

(Which is weird, because Luminescent is kind of a serious grind to go through. And it can’t strictly be purchased through Gold, only through doing things.)

Instead, it would be better if the grind was moved to “want item X, go farm in place Y or off enemy Z”. Which, well still kind of doesn’t solve anything about the grind. Even if buying it off the TP remains an option, it places the grind somewhere else and with only one option to acquire.

A while back I posted an option for working token-based acquisition systems into the old world to allow some of the items to be potentially earned through doing things in the areas but not strictly farming the same mob over and over. (Had that fill in EverQuest, thank you. Darn ghoul, no more Moonstone Rings . . .)

And I find your post interesting largely because you completely skirt one particular note – we’re not talking about actual progression so much as cosmetic progression. There’s a not insignificant difference between the two . . . I was of the opinion (still am) that cosmetics could be token acquired, or Karma acquired as they’re really only good or desired for personal use. (Oh I am so very wrong on that, seeing all the prices for “trivial cosmetic items” on the TP like Permanent Hair Stylist Contract….)

Anyway, if the topic really is about how to shift the grind (more likely to be good for the game), or to eliminate it altogether (more likely to be terrible for the game) . . . can we discuss that? Heck, even a case-by-case basis like I did earlier with Ascended is fine.

It gets even worse in bigger content. Imagine a 25-man raid instanced Tequatl. He might drop a mini Tequatl miniature, now let’s compare the two system again with 25 players.

In the traditional MMORPG system they can easily make that instanced Tequatl drop his miniature version with 100% chance, then it’s up to the 25 players to split it. Giving a total chance of 4%, now the more players that have it, the higher your chances of getting it, once again there is no heavy RNG involved in actually getting it (the question is “when”). When another player gets that Tequatl mini instead of you, you feel like you are making PROGRESS. Even though you didn’t get it, in the next run that person won’t roll for it.

Now, in the GW2 system that everyone rolls for loot on their own, this isn’t the case. You might run that Tequatl with the same 24 others, and never get it, while one or two of them might get the miniature 100 times. It’s pure random. Also, when someone else gets it, you say (to yourself) “That lucky guy!”, you are NOT progressing at all when other players get it, because they will still roll for it in the next runs.

This is the main difference between the loot systems of traditional MMORPGs and GW2, it’s not in the loot/rng itself, but on how the loot is distributed. Although what I’m saying now would only make sense in a very few types of content that exist currently, imagine if it’s true and HoT actually brings hardcore instanced content.

Imagine raiding with the GW2 random loot distribution. It’s going to be a true nightmare.

maddoctor.2738:

In the traditional system, there is NO RNG to get anything, it just takes time and patience.

That’s the cutest thing I read so far in this thread, it’s just so adorably losing track of what it says.

There is still RNG in the traditional system, you can just bypass it easier. You described exactly how there is RNG, and how it could be bypassed. And in the ancestors of MMOs? You might have had a point about how you could trade anything and it could still be okay. Ultima Online even went one better – you didn’t even have to trade. You could just stalk down the owner and kill them before they could get it safely into a secure location.

. . . when MMOs actually got big? EverQuest did not allow it to be bypassed quite so easily after the initial release. That’s why there was a “No Drop” flag attached to items which were deemed really powerful or quest significant. Heck, from what I understand even Destiny doesn’t let you trade anything anymore, except between characters.

So, when you talk about “traditional style”, I think it’s fair to say it’s more like “really old school” style. Tradition isn’t the same anymore.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

maddoctor.2738:

In the traditional system, there is NO RNG to get anything, it just takes time and patience.

So, when you talk about “traditional style”, I think it’s fair to say it’s more like “really old school” style. Tradition isn’t the same anymore.

OK let’s call it “really old school”

It doesn’t matter how you call it. A system that allows players to distribute the loot among themselves is superior to a system that does not.

I don’t want “Need/Greed” rolls to appear in the game, that’s not the point. But allowing Accound Bound on Acquire gear to be traded FREELY among players in the same party would certainly make content less of a grind.

Allowing me to give my Fractal Sword skin (that I already have) to my friend that wants it so badly is a huge step forward in making the “grind” feel much less profound. Allowing me to give my friend that Wupwup ascended box that he wants for his Support Guardian is a huge step forward too. Allowing me to give my 10th Carapace Coat box from Vinewrath to a friend that run VW 20 times already with zero Carapace Coats is a huge step forward.

Those are the merits of the old school system over the purely random system we have in GW2

maddoctor.2738:

Those are the merits of the old school system over the purely random system we have in GW2

True, but there’s merits of the GW2 system over the old school system too. Such as not having to have four items drop off a raid boss requiring 20+ people to down. Or less than that . . . and then having to figure out how to divide it up.

Going further off on this tangent is almost off topic, and I’d rather not get tagged for doing it. It’s sufficient to say there are merits in both systems, and allowing “Account Bind on Acquire” to exist means it’s possible to let the item in question drop more often since it can’t be traded.

After all, if you create . . . for instance . . . a Dredge Commissar tonic which drops off that particular boss but is Account Bind on Acquire? Then you do not have to worry about its drop rate as closely as you would if it wasn’t. It would, in essence, remove a super-rare drop from being another high-ticket item on the Trading Post.

Which I think we all can sympathize with.

Any activity that a human does for the very first time is new and rarely “boring”, and if done willingly is usually fun. Repeat that same task multiple times and the person can start to get bored because of repetition. Continue to do the activity excessively, and you become more efficient at it, it gets easy, eventually trivial. Now the activity becomes boring and feels like a grind if you continue to do it.

The best way to avoid anything feeling like a grind, is to change what you do often, and don’t constantly look at the end reward as the only reward.

I just play for the fun of the game, yeah it might take me a while to get “rewarded”, but for me the fun is the reward.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Devata.6589:

IndigoSundown.5419:

- snip -

“ANet has to please all of these people”. So try and please the groups you mention here? Put all those items behind specific content, don’t make them account-bound. There you go.

Personally I think some items should be account-bound but just to solve your problem.

While the thought in your former paragraph would cater to you and those who think like you, it would do nothing for those who like farming gold to buy what they want, and who don’t want rewards tied to specific content.

As to your latter sentence, what does account-bound have to do with anything? Account bound is a way to force people to do the content where drops happen, craft junk themselves, etc. Account bound is the anti-gold method.

My solution would indeed cater to those people but not harm those who prefer the option to grind gold.

That is where the not account bound items come in. While I would not mind account-bound item, having them not account-bound would mean they will end up on the TP so people can still get gold from other parts of the game to buy it. So that solves the problem you did think you saw, requiring people to do that specific content.

phys.7689:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Devata.6589:

IndigoSundown.5419:

- snip -

“ANet has to please all of these people”. So try and please the groups you mention here? Put all those items behind specific content, don’t make them account-bound. There you go.

Personally I think some items should be account-bound but just to solve your problem.

While the thought in your former paragraph would cater to you and those who think like you, it would do nothing for those who like farming gold to buy what they want, and who don’t want rewards tied to specific content.

As to your latter sentence, what does account-bound have to do with anything? Account bound is a way to force people to do the content where drops happen, craft junk themselves, etc. Account bound is the anti-gold method.

actually though i dont agree with devatas idea that it isnt grindy if its a direct drop, he has always said its fine to make it buyable by gold.

so people who like getting things with gold would still be able to buy things in his system. The main difference is there would be fewer drops that you cannot obtain directly

Indeed.

The ability to obtain items directly is what I would consider less grindy (when done right!) then the current system, but I can agree to disagree if you would still find it just as grindy. At least it would feel less grindy to a group of players so that is already a win, while it might not yet do the job for everybody. That is also why everybody can give his solution in this thread.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

maddoctor.2738:

Those are the merits of the old school system over the purely random system we have in GW2

True, but there’s merits of the GW2 system over the old school system too. Such as not having to have four items drop off a raid boss requiring 20+ people to down. Or less than that . . . and then having to figure out how to divide it up.

But missing that “dividing” part is what makes the GW2 system feel more of a grind. In that case with the boss that requires 20+ people to down but drops 4 items, even if you don’t get it today, your chances for tomorrow increase. In GW2 they are always the same.

Going further off on this tangent is almost off topic, and I’d rather not get tagged for doing it. It’s sufficient to say there are merits in both systems, and allowing “Account Bind on Acquire” to exist means it’s possible to let the item in question drop more often since it can’t be traded.

Well using a different loot distribution system WILL affect how people see “grind” so it’s on-topic. It’s one of the ways to reduce the effects of grind.

After all, if you create . . . for instance . . . a Dredge Commissar tonic which drops off that particular boss but is Account Bind on Acquire? Then you do not have to worry about its drop rate as closely as you would if it wasn’t. It would, in essence, remove a super-rare drop from being another high-ticket item on the Trading Post.

Here is the “problem” with that tonic. If there is a system that allows you to trade Account Bound on Acquire items, you will have to kill the Dredge Commisar far less times, than without it. If they add that tonic with the current system, it will lead to players having the tonic two or three times (with no use for it) while some others will kill him 10000 times and still not get it.

Allowing those players to group up to split the tonic, would simply transfer some of the luck from “lucky accounts” to less lucky accounts. Overall making the grind feel less intrusive.

In the other thread I did an anology that I think it fits great.

Person A starts his first job. Wants a car. Does the Math and finds he need to work for a year to save enough in order to buy that Car. Works his year, enjoys his job and finally gets the car. All is great.

Person B starts his first job. Wants a Car. Does the Math find out he needs to work for a year in order to buy the car. Person B thinks a Year is just way too long so he starts 2 more jobs and cuts down the time required to get a car from 1 year to 4 months. Works for 4 months, enjoys none of his jobs cause naturally he’s all burned out finally gets a car but he felt it wasnt worthed going through all of that.

I think this story illustrates the issue at hand very well. The car is optional. Public transport works just as well, sure the car is nice to have and both persons were right to go for it. The nice thing about it being optional is waiting for year isnt just a big deal. Its not like it was something thats required that stopped either Person A / B from working or advancing in their jobs.

Then there is the experience Person A and B had about work. This is subjective naturally but good chance is Person A views work as a much more enjoyable experience then Person B does simply because Person B burned himself out in their pursuit of a car. Worst yet is now Person B got used to a certain income level. They got the car but will that mean they are going to quite their other 2 jobs or keep them on so they get whatever they want next faster?

focusing on Gw2 specifically there are consequences in making a game lack vertical progression. Like its been pointed out by everyone on both sides of the argument an MMO needs to keep providing goals for their players to work towards. Vertical progression games can simply provide new more powerful gear and that is sure to keep people busy because everyone has no choice but work towards them (or drop the game) without vertical progression though you have no such luxury. Hence the long term goals.

Now the issue is a ton of people seem to have issues with long term goals. We can see that with the very first release of ascended gear. all it took is complete the equivalent of 30 dailies which back then really meant logging in for 15 – 30 mins once per day doing anything you felt like and its done. No pain no grind just play the game. Were people happy? no there was an overwhelming push to drop time gating. Even though it was pointed out by people that will likely introduce grind what these people want it was to get those 30 days down to a smaller number. But like person B no doubt discover everything has a price. Taking a short cut is possible, thats the beauty of having choices, but that doesnt mean its going to be free.

The tragedy of it all is we keep telling people that if they hate grinding, simply stop grinding, play what you enjoy and eventually you’ll earn the rewards anyway. In turn they act like our way is some sort of unfeasible work around to get around an obvious issue. No if person A tells person B to drop 2 of his jobs so that he doesnt burn out and start enjoying work while saving for his car isnt an unfeasible work around, its how things are mean to be… its the doing 3 jobs at once to get the timeline down thats a workaround, a workaround that carries a heavy price, that of enjoying yourself while working towards your goal.

Think about that for a second. There is a reason why these are long term goals. how would you suggest Anet fix the issue without making the game run out of goals for a big number of players?

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Serophous.9085:

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

maddoctor.2738:

Devata.6589:

maddoctor.2738:

So this thread is still all about arguing what is grind and what is not, arguing if GW2 is a grindy game or not and nothing about discussing changes to any of the game systems.

If you continue to debate what grind is, even though you know what the developers themselves feel about it, this one should get a lock soon. 3 pages and still no proposals for changes

I did see many proposals. Mine was putting items behind content.

So instead of allowing players to get whatever they want by doing whatever they want (play how you want?) you want to lock content behind specific content and have an impossible grind behind that content?

Yes, that’s pretty much it … the traditional MMO approach to getting loot. WE’ve already went over this in that LAST thread. The proposals I’ve seen so far simply reduce player’s ability to choose content; they don’t reduce grind at all.

How does is reduce player’s ability to choose content if all it does is ADD one new option? Working towards is directly. Again, as long as they are not account-bound you can still grind gold for it if that is what you like.

It would only be true for the items that are account-bound. But thats already the case with some items.

But the player IS working towards the item. By playing whatever they want, they are earning gold, the currency towards the item. Why does a brand new currency need to be implemented that would only come from one other specific source? How does even ADDING a new currency reduce grind? It DOESN’T. You are just shifting the grind to something else. And if you believe anet would make the token method faster, they are going to try and make it equal to other methods. In other words, the same amount of time. So that makes adding a new currency pointless once again.

You aren’t talking about reducing grind, all you have been doing is trying to actual make the grind either more annoying, or restricted.

It’s completely different when you do content for an item (so the item belongs to the content) or if you do ‘whatever’ to earn gold and then buy it, and then again, and again. Not to mention that this approach also means you are basically punishing yourself by not doing the content that rewards the most gold and it reduces the value of any item (that you can’t directly work for) to whatever is the easiest way to earn gold.

“Why does a brand new currency need to be implemented” Uhhm it does not.. No new currency, way to many currencies already in this game. Currency’s are more part of the problem then the solution.

“How does even ADDING a new currency reduce grind?” Where did you see my suggesting to put in a new currency. It would not be a currency coming from one place but the item you want. " It DOESN’T." That is why I did NOT suggest it.

Well your complete comment it based on something I did not suggest so there is not much more to say about it.

Also once again (how many times have I already repeated that in the last few comments? Just with other words) For any item that is not account-bound it is not more restricted, in fact it adds a new option, not take any away.

What people are really punishing themselves for is impatience.

To me you punish yourself by playing a game to get something you absolutely don’t need but want to have. What’s the difference if you get that thing now or in a month, or in two months?

If you’re going to ruin your game experience by farming efficiently the fault is yours. It’s okay to have long term goals. There’s nothing wrong with that.

Sure it is. That however does not mean people will not do it (human nature dictates many do) and because they do it they get burned out of the game sooner and will leave. So in the end it still is a problem for the game.

I personally don’t mind if it takes time, as long as I can work directly towards it instead of having really only the same gold option for all of them.

The other things I like to do simply don’t make a lot of money and besides I simply like the hunt. So even if I did get all the money I needed by playing the game I would be happy with the items but still miss the hunt and the items (would) also have less value to me.

And like phys said, Patience is nice, but when it takes too long it will take away the joy, and that is what a game should be about. I think we can all agree on that.

Galen Grey.4709:

Think about that for a second. There is a reason why these are long term goals. how would you suggest Anet fix the issue without making the game run out of goals for a big number of players?

The objective shouldn’t be to eliminate grind completely, I think everyone agrees that having a 100% of getting your reward from a single run isn’t good for an MMORPG (unless we are talking about content that is SUPER hard – like Liadri)

However, the question is how to make the grind feel less of a grind. In my loot distribution example, in one system you feel like you are progressing when your allies are getting the item, while in the GW2 system you never feel like it because it’s purely random. Both require you to repeat the same content, but one system allows you to feel rewarded when someone else gets the item, while the other makes you hate them.

And I’ll say again I’m very worried of what might happen if they release instanced “raid-like” content in Heart of Thorns, if they use the same reward system we have in the rest of the game there.

Ashen.2907:

All grind of any sort in any game is optional. I guess the OP’s point is that he would like a discussion about how to reduce grind and increase fun rather than a focus on whether or not one person’s optional grind is acceptible while another’s is not.

You cannot..if you CHOOSE to achieve some specific goals/items/achievements/whatevers, then you have to make an effort..i.e. grind for it.
Still, it is not mandatory, so don’t blame the developers but the players who fire eachother up by showing what they have, thus triggering others to achieve/aquire the same

Devata.6589:

Indeed.

The ability to obtain items directly is what I would consider less grindy (when done right!) then the current system, but I can agree to disagree if you would still find it just as grindy. At least it would feel less grindy to a group of players so that is already a win, while it might not yet do the job for everybody. That is also why everybody can give his solution in this thread.

I know you’re really passionate about this idea but honestly I just cannot see it. Can you help me see your point because from when I am standing this would be much much worst.

Lets take say vision of the mists staff. lets focus specifically on the 250 ecto. I picked this item because 100 mystic coins requirement makes it quite obvious by design this item is designed to take 100 days to earn. Ecto cost 33s so currently thats 82g which means
and average of 82s per day. Quite reasonable.

Now Scenario 1.
lets assume we make ectos untradable and obtainable only via random drop of a dungeon. Now I dont know how many dungeons people run on average per day… Lets say the average is 3 for the sake of argument that means we make a drop rate of 33% so that on average people get 1 drop per day and they can earn 250 ectos in the 100 days as intended. That means 300 dungeon runs. As someone who doesnt really like dungeon running thats for me would be infinitely more grindy than earning 82s doing whatever i feel like per day.

Now Scenario 2.
Lets keep ecto tradable and make them drop via dungeons so that people who want to farm them directly can do that or people who want to do something else are free to do something else.

First thing you’d need to do now is make rares no longer salvagable into ectos why because that still be the biggest source of ectos which would mean that in order to keep the 100 day target the drop rate from dungeons would be so low that it might as well not exist at all. So the only source of ectos is now dungeons. A single dungeon run nets you an average of 3g which means that if things balance out we now have an ecto drop rate of 15% and ectos sell for 3g each. That means for anyone who uses all dungeon rewards to buy ectos and keeps all ecto drops they’ll still need to do 300 dungeon runs on average. people who want to go directly for ectos through drops now need to do 600 dungeon runs and people who just want to avoid dungeons now need to play more then 3x as much as before to keep with the 100 day target. Either way you look at it scenario 2 is worst then scenario 1 in terms of grind.

I am not criticizing your idea, I know you’re passionate about it but every way I look at it I can only seeing making grind much much worst, so please tell me what am I missing ? is there a 3rd scenario I am missing or do you think any of my logic is flawed? what gives?

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

Indeed.

The ability to obtain items directly is what I would consider less grindy (when done right!) then the current system, but I can agree to disagree if you would still find it just as grindy. At least it would feel less grindy to a group of players so that is already a win, while it might not yet do the job for everybody. That is also why everybody can give his solution in this thread.

I know you’re really passionate about this idea but honestly I just cannot see it. Can you help me see your point because from when I am standing this would be much much worst.

Or scenario 3: make Vision of the Mists itself drop from content, say a 0.1% to drop from the Temple of Lyssa event. So players who want Vision of Mists will either grind to get gold to buy it, grind to get the ectos themselves to forge it, or grind the Temple of Lyssa event to directly get it.

I think that’s more like it for a “rewards through content” idea.

maddoctor.2738:

Galen Grey.4709:

Think about that for a second. There is a reason why these are long term goals. how would you suggest Anet fix the issue without making the game run out of goals for a big number of players?

The objective shouldn’t be to eliminate grind completely, I think everyone agrees that having a 100% of getting your reward from a single run isn’t good for an MMORPG (unless we are talking about content that is SUPER hard – like Liadri)

However, the question is how to make the grind feel less of a grind. In my loot distribution example, in one system you feel like you are progressing when your allies are getting the item, while in the GW2 system you never feel like it because it’s purely random. Both require you to repeat the same content, but one system allows you to feel rewarded when someone else gets the item, while the other makes you hate them.

And I’ll say again I’m very worried of what might happen if they release instanced “raid-like” content in Heart of Thorns, if they use the same reward system we have in the rest of the game there.

you idea of sharing the account bound loot between members of a party is quite interesting but from where I am sitting does have a few issues on why it may ultimately not work.

The way I see it it has a few really good advantages like:
1. encourages players to play together
2. Strengthen guilds ( I am sure players will try to form parties within their guilds as pugs cannot be trusted to honor trades)

But also have a few disadvantages that like i said may ultimately make things worst.
1. If game designers want to keep a reward in play for the same amount of time if they introduce this system they’d need to decrease drop rates by 5x
2. that would make the game super solo unfriendly
3. it may cause people to fight between each other as they may feel rightly or not they have been cheated when someone gets the drop they want but is not given to them anyway.
4. Pugs become a bigger taboo

maddoctor.2738:

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

Indeed.

The ability to obtain items directly is what I would consider less grindy (when done right!) then the current system, but I can agree to disagree if you would still find it just as grindy. At least it would feel less grindy to a group of players so that is already a win, while it might not yet do the job for everybody. That is also why everybody can give his solution in this thread.

I know you’re really passionate about this idea but honestly I just cannot see it. Can you help me see your point because from when I am standing this would be much much worst.

Or scenario 3: make Vision of the Mists itself drop from content, say a 0.1% to drop from the Temple of Lyssa event. So players who want Vision of Mists will either grind to get gold to buy it, grind to get the ectos themselves to forge it, or grind the Temple of Lyssa event to directly get it.

I think that’s more like it for a “rewards through content” idea.

A single temple run gives you more then 1g which means not only a single temp run gives you more money then target required per day but its possible to do multiple runs. granted the other runs will not make as much money but they’ll still make a substantial amount. with a 0.1% chance to drop if you just do temple of lyssa events chances are you’ll be able to craft 10 vision of mists weapons before you even get a single drop. Not sure that would make it feel less grindy!

For scenario 3 to be viable, the drop rate needs to be much higher, say 0.5% but that would mean you’d need to double the crafting requirements to make up for it. not sure that would make it feel less grindy.

Galen Grey.4709:

you idea of sharing the account bound loot between members of a party is quite interesting but from where I am sitting does have a few issues on why it may ultimately not work.

The way I see it it has a few really good advantages like:
1. encourages players to play together
2. Strengthen guilds ( I am sure players will try to form parties within their guilds as pugs cannot be trusted to honor trades)

But also have a few disadvantages that like i said may ultimately make things worst.
1. If game designers want to keep a reward in play for the same amount of time if they introduce this system they’d need to decrease drop rates by 5x
2. that would make the game super solo unfriendly
3. it may cause people to fight between each other as they may feel rightly or not they have been cheated when someone gets the drop they want but is not given to them anyway.
4. Pugs become a bigger taboo

1. I don’t think they need to decrease drop rates at all. The chances of getting an item drop will be the exact same. The only difference is where it is distributed, instead of having players with 2 or 3 account bound items, they will be more spread out, but the amount of items dropping will be the exact same. No reason to change RNG chances, just tweak distribution so it is more fair for everyone.

2. Even in the open world, it will promote players grouping up, that’s not the same as making the game solo unfriendly. That’s why I gave the Carapace Coat example, allowing players to give it freely to other players in their group, so if they already have it, share the fun! I’m more concerned about HoT more than anything else, based on how they do their new “hardcore” guild content, the current reward system might to be very good.

Even so, in this game you are considered to be in a party with everyone around you. So let’s make a more far fetched proposal and make it so players can “opt-out” from rewards they already have, and instead allow others to get them. That could be transparent and not requiring a party. Although it might be extra work

3. Since you can’t see the drops of others that’s not an issue. If they get something account bound that they already have, they can ping it and ask in party who might need it. Otherwise they can just keep to themselves and not say or ping anything if they don’t want to. There is no visible dice roll that you see what everyone picks and rolls

4. This all depends on how transparent the new system is.

Obtena.7952:

Serophous.9085:

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

maddoctor.2738:

Devata.6589:

maddoctor.2738:

So this thread is still all about arguing what is grind and what is not, arguing if GW2 is a grindy game or not and nothing about discussing changes to any of the game systems.

If you continue to debate what grind is, even though you know what the developers themselves feel about it, this one should get a lock soon. 3 pages and still no proposals for changes

I did see many proposals. Mine was putting items behind content.

So instead of allowing players to get whatever they want by doing whatever they want (play how you want?) you want to lock content behind specific content and have an impossible grind behind that content?

Yes, that’s pretty much it … the traditional MMO approach to getting loot. WE’ve already went over this in that LAST thread. The proposals I’ve seen so far simply reduce player’s ability to choose content; they don’t reduce grind at all.

How does is reduce player’s ability to choose content if all it does is ADD one new option? Working towards is directly. Again, as long as they are not account-bound you can still grind gold for it if that is what you like.

It would only be true for the items that are account-bound. But thats already the case with some items.

But the player IS working towards the item. By playing whatever they want, they are earning gold, the currency towards the item. Why does a brand new currency need to be implemented that would only come from one other specific source? How does even ADDING a new currency reduce grind? It DOESN’T. You are just shifting the grind to something else. And if you believe anet would make the token method faster, they are going to try and make it equal to other methods. In other words, the same amount of time. So that makes adding a new currency pointless once again.

You aren’t talking about reducing grind, all you have been doing is trying to actual make the grind either more annoying, or restricted.

Exactly. The idea just recasts the grind into some other form that is more pleasing to some players, but it still exists. Somehow, they have convinced themselves it’s a better option. Adding more avenues to allow grind is not a way to fix grinding. That’s been my biggest issue with his suggestion all through 40+ pages of these threads. Doesn’t seem to want to acknowledge that.

Well that’s because grind is also partly personal, we did agree on that somewhere on page 5 of the first thread. In fact, I have always talked about ‘depending on your preferred gameplay’. For a group this will be way less grindy. In fact I don’t see any grind in getting an item for a quest or for completing a dungeon. While I can understand people still see grind when the item is in a dungeon with RNG. Still the RNG could be lower so less grind imho.

Anyway, what you are talking about is only my suggestion and does indeed help to decrease the grind for a group of players , maybe not for all but like I said before in this thread, feel free to come with your own suggestion. Maybe the combined suggestions would solve it for an ever bigger group.

I never said my solution would be the end an all for all grind for everybody. It’s a solution for people with a preferred game-play. A group I think is big when you have a game that is so much based on cosmetics, while I also think many of that group will have left by now but will come back with HoT. So there is a lot to gain here imho.

Galen Grey.4709:

maddoctor.2738:

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

Indeed.

The ability to obtain items directly is what I would consider less grindy (when done right!) then the current system, but I can agree to disagree if you would still find it just as grindy. At least it would feel less grindy to a group of players so that is already a win, while it might not yet do the job for everybody. That is also why everybody can give his solution in this thread.

I know you’re really passionate about this idea but honestly I just cannot see it. Can you help me see your point because from when I am standing this would be much much worst.

Or scenario 3: make Vision of the Mists itself drop from content, say a 0.1% to drop from the Temple of Lyssa event. So players who want Vision of Mists will either grind to get gold to buy it, grind to get the ectos themselves to forge it, or grind the Temple of Lyssa event to directly get it.

I think that’s more like it for a “rewards through content” idea.

A single temple run gives you more then 1g which means not only a single temp run gives you more money then target required per day but its possible to do multiple runs. granted the other runs will not make as much money but they’ll still make a substantial amount. with a 0.1% chance to drop if you just do temple of lyssa events chances are you’ll be able to craft 10 vision of mists weapons before you even get a single drop. Not sure that would make it feel less grindy!

For scenario 3 to be viable, the drop rate needs to be much higher, say 0.5% but that would mean you’d need to double the crafting requirements to make up for it. not sure that would make it feel less grindy.

I gave a terrible example but I think you can understand how it will work, grind for gold, grind for mats to forge, or grind for the item directly.

I think the best solution for expensive items is getting them through collections. They are already adding precursor collections, so why not add Vision of the Mists collection, or Volcanus collection or Mjolnir collection or any other expensive item collection.

I think collections could be the GW2 answer to grinding for specific items. I’ll reserve judgement about how it works until I see how the HoT Precursor Collections are implemented, but we’ll see how feasible it will be to add collections for other items too!

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Serophous.9085:

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

maddoctor.2738:

Devata.6589:

maddoctor.2738:

~

~

~

~

How does is reduce player’s ability to choose content if all it does is ADD one new option? Working towards is directly. Again, as long as they are not account-bound you can still grind gold for it if that is what you like.

It would only be true for the items that are account-bound. But thats already the case with some items.

But the player IS working towards the item. By playing whatever they want, they are earning gold, the currency towards the item. Why does a brand new currency need to be implemented that would only come from one other specific source? How does even ADDING a new currency reduce grind? It DOESN’T. You are just shifting the grind to something else. And if you believe anet would make the token method faster, they are going to try and make it equal to other methods. In other words, the same amount of time. So that makes adding a new currency pointless once again.

You aren’t talking about reducing grind, all you have been doing is trying to actual make the grind either more annoying, or restricted.

It’s completely different when you do content for an item (so the item belongs to the content) or if you do ‘whatever’ to earn gold and then buy it, and then again, and again. Not to mention that this approach also means you are basically punishing yourself by not doing the content that rewards the most gold and it reduces the value of any item (that you can’t directly work for) to whatever is the easiest way to earn gold.

“Why does a brand new currency need to be implemented” Uhhm it does not.. No new currency, way to many currencies already in this game. Currency’s are more part of the problem then the solution.

“How does even ADDING a new currency reduce grind?” Where did you see my suggesting to put in a new currency. It would not be a currency coming from one place but the item you want. " It DOESN’T." That is why I did NOT suggest it.

Well your complete comment it based on something I did not suggest so there is not much more to say about it.

Also once again (how many times have I already repeated that in the last few comments? Just with other words) For any item that is not account-bound it is not more restricted, in fact it adds a new option, not take any away.

What people are really punishing themselves for is impatience.

To me you punish yourself by playing a game to get something you absolutely don’t need but want to have. What’s the difference if you get that thing now or in a month, or in two months?

If you’re going to ruin your game experience by farming efficiently the fault is yours. It’s okay to have long term goals. There’s nothing wrong with that.

Because you dont get to use the thing while your are seeking it.

Waiting too much kills joy. Patience is nice, but like everything, its best in moderation.

This I agree with. Precursors in this game were done badly and I’m glad that’s finally being fixed, but I’ve managed to get pretty much everything I want in this game without grinding.

I do what I want, when I want, tick away at a bunch of things each time I do them, and eventually they get done. Even something like world complete which many think is a grind. I just do a few things here and there, every time I’m in a zone. I’ts not a grind to light a torch or kill one guy as I’m running to something. It’s just something I do while running.

Eventually I get into a map and there are 3 points of interest and a vista or something and I say, hey I can finish that…and I do.

I have world complete on 4 characters.

The only time I’ve completed a zone to complete it is when the guild is doing it and I’m hanging out.

I decided not to actively work towards world-completion (from day one), sometimes when leveling I did go for completing one map, to not have seen everything when leveling with alts. The result of that is that till this day I still not have map-completion. So it’s a nice story but it does not work that way in reality for everybody.

And when really going for map-completion / world-completion I do think it’s a grind because it becomes a list of PoI, hearths, waypoint and vista’s to cross of. But I guess that is to off-topic. All I want to say or show that what works for you in one way does not also work for everybody else in the same way. That is the same for many thing we talk about in this thread.

maddoctor.2738:

1. I don’t think they need to decrease drop rates at all. The chances of getting an item drop will be the exact same. The only difference is where it is distributed, instead of having players with 2 or 3 account bound items, they will be more spread out, but the amount of items dropping will be the exact same. No reason to change RNG chances, just tweak distribution so it is more fair for everyone.

2. Even in the open world, it will promote players grouping up, that’s not the same as making the game solo unfriendly. That’s why I gave the Carapace Coat example, allowing players to give it freely to other players in their group, so if they already have it, share the fun! I’m more concerned about HoT more than anything else, based on how they do their new “hardcore” guild content, the current reward system might to be very good.

Even so, in this game you are considered to be in a party with everyone around you. So let’s make a more far fetched proposal and make it so players can “opt-out” from rewards they already have, and instead allow others to get them. That could be transparent and not requiring a party. Although it might be extra work

3. Since you can’t see the drops of others that’s not an issue. If they get something account bound that they already have, they can ping it and ask in party who might need it. Otherwise they can just keep to themselves and not say or ping anything if they don’t want to. There is no visible dice roll that you see what everyone picks and rolls

4. This all depends on how transparent the new system is.

1. You could be right here, it really depends how well game designers did their job. I am saying this because there are multiple RNGs at play. Do you get a rare drop? Do you get the desired rarity drop? and if so do you get the desired item time to drop? and then to you get the desired item stats to drop? Like you said whether you get a rare drop or not is unchanged but the fact you can trade now it means you have 5x more chance for a positive answer to the other questions. In short I am sure we all got good drops that we really didnt care for. Essentially its a good drop thats “wasted”. your system makes that 5 times less likely to happen on average. The question is did designers take that into consideration when choosing drop rates?

2. Thats true provided doing this system doesnt result in a nerf to drop rates.

3. That might actually make it worst. People might get suspicious others in their group got items they’re keeping secret to sell for profit. For this to work transparency is a must and item drops would have to be visible to all in the party. I dont see it working otherwise.

Galen Grey.4709:

3. That might actually make it worst. People might get suspicious others in their group got items they’re keeping secret to sell for profit. For this to work transparency is a must and item drops would have to be visible to all in the party. I dont see it working otherwise.

I’m not saying to use this system on everything in the game, the couple of silver from Ascended Armors/Weapons/Rings isn’t worth the inventory slot. And if anything only guilds / friends will use the system, or good hearted individuals who want to share their luck with others.

OK you can salvage some accound bound exotics for ectos, or salvage that Carapace Coat you got for some extra Silk. That’s why keeping them hidden is important, otherwise we get the “pay me 5s before I give it you”.

Do you suspect someone of getting a Fractal skin when you finish a Fotm run? I certainly don’t because there is hardly any reason to lie.

In short I am sure we all got good drops that we really didnt care for. Essentially its a good drop thats “wasted”. your system makes that 5 times less likely to happen on average. The question is did designers take that into consideration when choosing drop rates?

I think the developers should focus on the individual chances of an item dropping, no matter where it will end up in the end. But of course that’s a question for the devs and how they see it

maddoctor.2738:

Galen Grey.4709:

maddoctor.2738:

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

Indeed.

The ability to obtain items directly is what I would consider less grindy (when done right!) then the current system, but I can agree to disagree if you would still find it just as grindy. At least it would feel less grindy to a group of players so that is already a win, while it might not yet do the job for everybody. That is also why everybody can give his solution in this thread.

I know you’re really passionate about this idea but honestly I just cannot see it. Can you help me see your point because from when I am standing this would be much much worst.

Or scenario 3: make Vision of the Mists itself drop from content, say a 0.1% to drop from the Temple of Lyssa event. So players who want Vision of Mists will either grind to get gold to buy it, grind to get the ectos themselves to forge it, or grind the Temple of Lyssa event to directly get it.

I think that’s more like it for a “rewards through content” idea.

A single temple run gives you more then 1g which means not only a single temp run gives you more money then target required per day but its possible to do multiple runs. granted the other runs will not make as much money but they’ll still make a substantial amount. with a 0.1% chance to drop if you just do temple of lyssa events chances are you’ll be able to craft 10 vision of mists weapons before you even get a single drop. Not sure that would make it feel less grindy!

For scenario 3 to be viable, the drop rate needs to be much higher, say 0.5% but that would mean you’d need to double the crafting requirements to make up for it. not sure that would make it feel less grindy.

I gave a terrible example but I think you can understand how it will work, grind for gold, grind for mats to forge, or grind for the item directly.

I think the best solution for expensive items is getting them through collections. They are already adding precursor collections, so why not add Vision of the Mists collection, or Volcanus collection or Mjolnir collection or any other expensive item collection.

I think collections could be the GW2 answer to grinding for specific items. I’ll reserve judgement about how it works until I see how the HoT Precursor Collections are implemented, but we’ll see how feasible it will be to add collections for other items too!

Yes I understand what you mean. my point was simply that adding a new way to acquire an item thats prefectly balanced with the others (ie going for the mats would take as long as going for the gold which would take as long as going for the item directly) would mean everything else gets 33% worst which in turn might make things feel more grindy then less so.

I like collections and yes I agree collections might be a good solution to the issue. To avoid the same issue of making something meant to be rare much more common and without increasing the requirements for the other methods I fear it may require a lot of work to get rare stuff through collections. Then again as long as you dont have to repeat the same content over and over again it may be a good option. I too am curious to see how it will work for precursors.