Guild Wars 2

Vasham.2408:

• Hearts replacing quests ruins replayability
• Personal story being devoid of meaningful choices despite being advertised otherwise
• Events are buggy and non-functional months after release
• Event bosses are mindless zergs
• Lack of the Holy Trinity effectively killed complex boss design
• sPVP is a complete joke, poorly balanced and completely abandoned
• WvW is nothing but zergs, capture trading, and door smashing
• Dungeons are a mess of bugs and erratic requirements, either too easy or full of fake difficulty
• Loot DR implemented to force gem purchases upon the playerbase
• Bots left to do their thing, ruining the economy
• Servers list accounts tied to server, not actual populations to hide poor player retention
• Legendary weapons not legendary, just a massive grind
• Trahearne (THIS IS MY STORY LOL)
• Zhaitan (SPAM 2 TO KILL THE ELDER DRAGON LOL)

Need I say more?

He asked examples of poor design, not baseless dismissal with no reasoning/evidence.

I mean, you said one-man aggroing whole dungeon while one refills his health and others spam the same rotation is “complex boss design”, go figure.
My 9 yo nephew beats all wow dungeons so unless he’s a magician that is childproof boss design – yet he has very hard times playing GW2.
Bots have been banned in dozens of thousands and are hardly seen around anymore.
WvW zerg? By what logic “mass PvP” is supposed to be about small teams?
The only things you got right are poor design of Personal Story/Trahearne.

Need I say more?

VOLKON.1290:

Sylosi.6503:

You mean exactly how people rush to the mobs in events (notably the Orr ones) in order to get the credit…

No. That’s different… people trying to get in on an event are helping each other complete the event together. In lesser MMOs, you run to tag the mob so you and only you get credit for it.

No it’s the same, people are at the Orr camp events to farm them, hence they all rush from spawn point to spawn point spamming their attacks at the point the mobs become vulnerable, because they know the mobs are going to be instagibbed and if they don’t get in their 100b before most of the other people there, then the mobs will be dead and they won’t be getting any loot bags.

Red Falcon.8257:

Vasham.2408:

• Hearts replacing quests ruins replayability
• Personal story being devoid of meaningful choices despite being advertised otherwise
• Events are buggy and non-functional months after release
• Event bosses are mindless zergs
• Lack of the Holy Trinity effectively killed complex boss design
• sPVP is a complete joke, poorly balanced and completely abandoned
• WvW is nothing but zergs, capture trading, and door smashing
• Dungeons are a mess of bugs and erratic requirements, either too easy or full of fake difficulty
• Loot DR implemented to force gem purchases upon the playerbase
• Bots left to do their thing, ruining the economy
• Servers list accounts tied to server, not actual populations to hide poor player retention
• Legendary weapons not legendary, just a massive grind
• Trahearne (THIS IS MY STORY LOL)
• Zhaitan (SPAM 2 TO KILL THE ELDER DRAGON LOL)

Need I say more?

He asked examples of poor design, not baseless dismissal with no reasoning/evidence.

I mean, you said one-man aggroing whole dungeon while one refills his health and others spam the same rotation is “complex boss design”, go figure.
Bots have been banned in dozens of thousands and are hardly around anymore.
WvW zerg? Is mass pvp supposed to be about 1vs1 in your opinion?
The only things you got right are poor design of Personal Story/Trahearne.

Need I say more?

Not really since everything you said is wrong:

• Summing up Trinity based boss encounters so simplistically shows you have next to no experience with competitive PVE. Come back when you have some experience. Until then you only insult players more experienced and skilled then yourself.
• Yes they ban bots. Yet they always come back. Not very effective if you ask me.
• No it’s not supposed to be about 1v1. But it’s also supposed to involve strategy, not just throwing masses of players at a door or point to capture.

Vasham.2408:

• Hearts replacing quests ruins replayability

How are Hearts any different from Quests?

Vasham.2408:

• Event bosses are mindless zergs

I’d say this is more down to event scaling poorly, not the actual events

Vasham.2408:

• Lack of the Holy Trinity effectively killed complex boss design

Disagree on this one. With the Trinity, regardless of mechanics, it still amounts to “this guy keeps attention, this guy keeps that guy alive and these guys hit him with all they got and try to stay out of the fire.”

Any key mechanics in a fight with the Trinity (outside of the obvious) you could probably implement without the Trinity as well.

Vasham.2408:

• Loot DR implemented to force gem purchases upon the playerbase
• Servers list accounts tied to server, not actual populations to hide poor player retention

You might want to back these accusations up with facts. I’ve never turned gems to gold, for one, so it only ‘forces’ impatient people who need it right now.

Vasham.2408:

• Legendary weapons not legendary, just a massive grind

Totally agree with this one.

Red Falcon.8257:

The only things you got right are poor design of Personal Story/Trahearne.

He got plenty right, most of the event bosses are mindless zergs, WvW is poorly designed in that favours one tactic – zerging, too much – the small maps favour zerging, the objectives close together favour zerging, the speed at which a zerg can take most objectives favours zerging, teh AOE limit favours zerging, the rez mechanic favours zerging, etc.

Vasham.2408:

• Hearts replacing quests ruins replayability

• Lack of the Holy Trinity effectively killed complex boss design

• Loot DR implemented to force gem purchases upon the playerbase

• Bots left to do their thing, ruining the economy

• Legendary weapons not legendary, just a massive grind

I don’t PvP, so can’t comment on those aspects. But I think the hearts increase replayabiltiy. Unless you just zoned out and did heart after heart and did map complete in a week, there are so many hearts, it’s easy to forget what you’re supposed to do when you come upon it again on a new character.

But I’m also still only at about 55% map complete (but I got my WvW out of the way!!!) so I’m just cruising along taking my time and really enjoying the game.

Lack of the Holy Trinity is one of the main reasons GW2 will retain me as a player. I’m sick to death of not being able to do stuff because you can’t find a healer or a tank in other games. There’s a reason dps type characters outweigh healers/tanks, because dps’ing is fun! Everyone can rez, working together makes it go faster. Actually, timing the rezzing in some dungeons can make or break what you’re trying to do.

The DR, yeah, I agree that it totally is just kitten awful. Awful. I understand why it’s there with the bots but something needs to be done about how it works. If I have a day that I decide, you know what? I’m just gonna game today, take the day off, not do the laundry, just hang out and GW2 it up, I can’t. DR ruins that.

I haven’t seen any bots lately, but to be honest, I don’t really look for them. I only really notice them when they appear from underground in a mining node. Haven’t seen that in a while.

Legendary weapons, yeah, I agree there. While I don’t mind a long, time consuming quest chain, I want a guarantee I’ll get the reward I worked for at the end. I’ll put in my time. I’ll do what needs to be done. But I won’t fight against the RNG to do it. This needs to be changed. And they need to be account bound. Seeing legendaries on the TP for 1800g is simply amazing.

I think a lot of the things you listed are more perspective then actual long term game breakers. A lot of these things I hope will be tweaked or fixed or re-worked over time.

Vasham.2408:

VOLKON.1290:

Vasham.2408:

SneakyErvin.3056:

Vasham.2408:

If anything this game’s poor design has reaffirmed my faith in other MMOs were the developers actually put forth honest effort. GW2 feels like nothing but a formless mass of ideas that didn’t pan out, everything tried an afterthought to the next “big idea” that got abandoned down the line.

An example of the poor design would be nice to hear.

• Hearts replacing quests ruins replayability
• Personal story being devoid of meaningful choices despite being advertised otherwise
• Events are buggy and non-functional months after release
• Event bosses are mindless zergs
• Lack of the Holy Trinity effectively killed complex boss design
• sPVP is a complete joke, poorly balanced and completely abandoned
• WvW is nothing but zergs, capture trading, and door smashing
• Dungeons are a mess of bugs and erratic requirements, either too easy or full of fake difficulty
• Loot DR implemented to force gem purchases upon the playerbase
• Bots left to do their thing, ruining the economy
• Servers list accounts tied to server, not actual populations to hide poor player retention
• Legendary weapons not legendary, just a massive grind
• Trahearne (THIS IS MY STORY LOL)
• Zhaitan (SPAM 2 TO KILL THE ELDER DRAGON LOL)

Need I say more?

How about something factual this time?

If facts aren’t your definition of factual then there’s no helping you.

Heh, ok, nice retort. But still, a lot of what you list there… that’s not my take on things at all.

• Hearts replacing quests ruins replayability: No, they didn’t. Not at all. You may not be able to redo hearts themselves, but the dynamic events, dungeons, world events, etc. are all replayable. Hearts are training wheels for GW2, nothing more. Once you’ve learned to ride, you don’t need them.

• Personal story being devoid of meaningful choices despite being advertised otherwise: Also not true. Characters live and die in your story based on these choices. Buildings saved or lost. In the end, they all culminate in Arah, but there are many paths that get you there.

• Events are buggy and non-functional months after release: I haven’t seen a buggy event in ages. They may be there, but nothing reporting them won’t fix.

• Event bosses are mindless zergs: These are the closest you’ll see to the old style fights you find with trinity based systems, sans tanks and healers. They’re raid feeling events with bosses that need to be stationary simply because they’re too freakin’ big. In a good way.

• Lack of the Holy Trinity effectively killed complex boss design: Horse poop. The bosses are far more complex and varied here than in trinity based systems such as WoW, where all you do is follow the script until the fight is over. The lack of trinity means every party of any mix will have the fight be different simply because everyone beings different elements to the table.

• sPVP is a complete joke, poorly balanced and completely abandoned: Haven’t done this, but I hear otherwise regarding balance or it being a joke.

• WvW is nothing but zergs, capture trading, and door smashing: What is “capture trading”? I haven’t seen any of that in my extended time in WvW. Yes, you have to smash the door to get in. Don’t like that? Smash the wall. Yes, there are zergs. There are also small groups, strike forces, single players taking out yaks to supply starve the enemy, etc.

• Dungeons are a mess of bugs and erratic requirements, either too easy or full of fake difficulty: Mess of bugs is a lie. Erratic requirements makes no sense. Without the archaic trinity any group of people can succeed and do so in varying ways.

• Loot DR implemented to force gem purchases upon the playerbase: Ease up on the conspiracy theories there. How you can equate DR (used to fight bots) with my decision whether or not to buy a quaggan backpack… I don’t know. Whether or not I choose to buy gems or convert gold to gems has nothing to do with DR.

• Bots left to do their thing, ruining the economy: Bots have been getting their butts kicked. They’re certainly not ruining the economy.

• Servers list accounts tied to server, not actual populations to hide poor player retention: This has been demonstrated to be a flat out lie. How else would we at Jade Quarry have been able to get guilds in before the transfer? We did blackouts. Basically, the WvW population would mostly log off at once, knocking the server from full to Very High, allowing people to transfer over. That would be impossible if what you say were true.

• Legendary weapons not legendary, just a massive grind: It’s the skins, not the stats that matter. A bow that shoots freakin unicorns at me… legendary in my book.

• Trahearne (THIS IS MY STORY LOL): Some like him, some don’t, irrelevant.

• Zhaitan (SPAM 2 TO KILL THE ELDER DRAGON LOL): Bah, I’m the guy keeping the mobs cleared while the shooting is going on. It’s non-stop action doing that.

Vasham.2408:

SneakyErvin.3056:

Vasham.2408:

If anything this game’s poor design has reaffirmed my faith in other MMOs were the developers actually put forth honest effort. GW2 feels like nothing but a formless mass of ideas that didn’t pan out, everything tried an afterthought to the next “big idea” that got abandoned down the line.

An example of the poor design would be nice to hear.

• Hearts replacing quests ruins replayability
• Personal story being devoid of meaningful choices despite being advertised otherwise
• Events are buggy and non-functional months after release
• Event bosses are mindless zergs
• Lack of the Holy Trinity effectively killed complex boss design
• sPVP is a complete joke, poorly balanced and completely abandoned
• WvW is nothing but zergs, capture trading, and door smashing
• Dungeons are a mess of bugs and erratic requirements, either too easy or full of fake difficulty
• Loot DR implemented to force gem purchases upon the playerbase
• Bots left to do their thing, ruining the economy
• Servers list accounts tied to server, not actual populations to hide poor player retention
• Legendary weapons not legendary, just a massive grind
• Trahearne (THIS IS MY STORY LOL)
• Zhaitan (SPAM 2 TO KILL THE ELDER DRAGON LOL)

Need I say more?

1- Hearts are exactly the same as quests, so that means every other MMO developer hasn’t put any honest effort in? And every other MMO quests doesn’t ruin replayability, despite being the exact same thing as heart quests?

2- My brother and I both chose the same exact choices when creating our first character, yet very early on our 2 story lines have gone different directions, getting different story line quests. There has already been zones that I was sent to during my Storyline that he never was, and vice versa. All this despite us making the same exact choices when creating our characters.

3- Seen very very few of these, actually I have only seen 1 so far that looks to be permanently bugged, but others seem to be temporarily bugged and end up working just fine the next day.

4- I haven’t seen an MMO with open world big boss fights that happen on a regular basis that wasn’t a mindless zerg. It really shouldn’t take strategy when the point of them is to show up on a regular basis for an unknown number of people who are strangers to each other to battle. Leave the strategy for the dungeons, trying to have strategy in an open world type setting with an unknown number of people who are strangers to each other is not going to work, and will cause frustration.

5- Seen plenty of complex boss design, and have found bosses and dungeons to actually be a ton more challenging then any WoW dungeon or any other MMO for that matter, because of the lack of Trinity. Having the Trinity actually makes boss fights less complex. The only other game that I can think of that had challenging dungeons is Lotro’s, WoWs are easy.

6/7- I don’t do PvP in any game, so no comment

8- Haven’t seen any glaring bugs in dungeons yet, and not sure what you mean by erratic requirements. Fake difficulty? Really your whole statement leads me to believe that the dungeons are more difficult then any other MMO, but you seem to not be able to handle them without the need of a holy trinity to make them easier.

9- Sounds like Tin foil hat conspiracy theory to me. Not sure how DR can make people buy Gems.

10- Lot less bots then there used to be, and haven’t played an MMO where there wasn’t Bots in the game. GW2 doesn’t have any more bots then any other game. Bots just come with the territory when it comes to MMOs.

11- Agreed that Legendary weapons are a massive grind, and honestly I believe that it is that way because if they did it any other way, well far to many people would get them because it would actually be fun to get. Legendary items are just there to throw a bone towards the people who don’t mind doing massive grinds for an item that most people will not get, and most people will not get them because they just have no interest in doing that kind of grind. So the people who do get them will feel special

12/13, Haven’t dealt with either of them, so no comment.

Sylosi.6503:

VOLKON.1290:

Sylosi.6503:

You mean exactly how people rush to the mobs in events (notably the Orr ones) in order to get the credit…

No. That’s different… people trying to get in on an event are helping each other complete the event together. In lesser MMOs, you run to tag the mob so you and only you get credit for it.

No it’s the same, people are at the Orr camp events to farm them, hence they all rush from spawn point to spawn point spamming thier attacks at the point the mobs become vulnerable, because they know the mobs are goign to be instagibbed and if they don’t get in their 100b before most of the other people there then the mobs will be dead and they won’t be gettign loot bags.

You’re trying too hard. Slow down and relax. You’ll make less spelling errors that way.

In competitive PvE types of games, everyone races to be the first. If you’re not, you’re s.o.l. and get nothing. With me so far? Good.

In GW2, people race to get in events. The more people that get there, the more mobs show up, the tougher they get, etc. Plus many events have timed scenarios, so this “instagibbed” scenario you present isn’t possible. It’s different completely, because everyone is racing to be a part of something, not the exclusive person to get credit for a single mob.

Vasham.2408:

VOLKON.1290:

Two posts worth of objective reactions to baseless opinions go here

Arenadrones gonna drone I guess. If you are not willing to accept the way things are and continue to live with buyer’s remorse than it’s not my problem.

I’ve seen this before, sadly. When you can’t attack the argument, attack the person presenting the argument. That’s not a good sign for your cause, you realize, no?

Actually… if a mod would be so kind, this is a good thread with a few bad apples tossed in. A bit of a cleaning would be much better than the intended deletion some people are pressing for would be nice.

I’d love everyone championing this game’s broken “no trinity” design to spend one day raiding with a top 100 WoW guild. You’d be kicked before the first boss was killed. This is a classic example of how casuals think: “I’m a bad player, so when I chose an easier path I must demonize those with more skill to make them appear in the wrong, justifying my poor performance.”

Vasham.2408:

I’d love everyone championing this game’s broken “no trinity” design to spend one day raiding with a top 100 WoW guild. You’d be kicked before the first boss was killed.

And why is this exactly?

Vasham.2408:

I’d love everyone championing this game’s broken “no trinity” design to spend one day raiding with a top 100 WoW guild. You’d be kicked before the first boss was killed. This is a classic example of how casuals think: “I’m a bad player, so when I chose an easier path I must demonize those with more skill to make them appear in the wrong, justifying my poor performance.”

This game isn’t targeted to those 2500 or so players.

And that’s a good thing

Vasham.2408:

I’d love everyone championing this game’s broken “no trinity” design to spend one day raiding with a top 100 WoW guild. You’d be kicked before the first boss was killed. This is a classic example of how casuals think: “I’m a bad player, so when I chose an easier path I must demonize those with more skill to make them appear in the wrong, justifying my poor performance.”

This just makes it sound like you prefer another type of game. There’s nothing wrong with that.

VOLKON.1290:

You’re trying too hard. Slow down and relax. You’ll make less spelling errors that way.

I’m fine thanks, quite why you think the odd typing error would indicate otherwise is a mystery, but then it is clear logic is not your strong point.

VOLKON.1290:

In competitive PvE types of games, everyone races to be the first. If you’re not, you’re s.o.l. and get nothing. With me so far? Good.

No, most of the time there is no racing to be first, it only happens on certain things like some daily quests, but even then the easy option is jsut to party up.

VOLKON.1290:

In GW2, people race to get in events. The more people that get there, the more mobs show up, the tougher they get, etc. Plus many events have timed scenarios, so this “instagibbed” scenario you present isn’t possible. It’s different completely, because everyone is racing to be a part of something, not the exclusive person to get credit for a single mob.

Rubbish, it is exactly the same, have you even done the Orr camp events? If the event is busy the mobs do not scale enough and are simply instagibbed (veterans excepted), the fact they have a timer is utterly irrelevant to what I posted, try re-reading it until you comprehend it.

TheDaiBish.9735:

Vasham.2408:

I’d love everyone championing this game’s broken “no trinity” design to spend one day raiding with a top 100 WoW guild. You’d be kicked before the first boss was killed.

And why is this exactly?

Because anyone who believes this game’s no trinity system leads to more challenging content is deluding themselves. However reality will never set in because these players prefer to exist in their little bubble of reality were “kite and dodge” is somehow the pinnacle of encounter design. If they stopped using entry level content in standard MMOs as a strawman and actually experienced some real PVE their minds would change quick.

VOLKON.1290:

I’ve seen this before, sadly. When you can’t attack the argument, attack the person presenting the argument. That’s not a good sign for your cause, you realize, no?

Coming from the person who made a crack about spelling that is pretty funny, one word hypocrisy…

Vasham.2408:

I’d love everyone championing this game’s broken “no trinity” design to spend one day raiding with a top 100 WoW guild. You’d be kicked before the first boss was killed. This is a classic example of how casuals think: “I’m a bad player, so when I chose an easier path I must demonize those with more skill to make them appear in the wrong, justifying my poor performance.”

I was in a top Raiding guild in WoW from Vanilla through Sunwell, constantly making server firsts. And yes having no trinity is actually more challenging then any dungeon or even raid in WoW. In WoW, it was the same thing every single time because of the trinity, all we had to do was learn the boss’s scripts and it was easy mode from there on out. I’m sorry, but speaking from experience from being in a top raiding Guild, you are making it more then what it really is.

IMO, the dungeon boss fights are more of a challenge because of the lack of Trinitity, everyone actually needs to pay a whole lot more attention to each other then any dungeon or raid in WoW

Vasham.2408:

Because anyone who believes this game’s no trinity system leads to more challenging content is deluding themselves. However reality will never set in because these players prefer to exist in their little bubble of reality were “kite and dodge” is somehow the pinnacle of encounter design. If they stopped using entry level content in standard MMOs as a strawman and actually experienced some real PVE their minds would change quick.

Well, I used to raid.

I much prefer GW2’s design over just standing there, filling health bars (I used to heal). Maybe occasionally use a skill that reduced damage taken.

Most encounter designs from the trinity could be implemented without the trinity as well, outside of the obvious keeping aggro, filling healthbars and keeping the tank up.

eisberg.2379:

Vasham.2408:

I’d love everyone championing this game’s broken “no trinity” design to spend one day raiding with a top 100 WoW guild. You’d be kicked before the first boss was killed. This is a classic example of how casuals think: “I’m a bad player, so when I chose an easier path I must demonize those with more skill to make them appear in the wrong, justifying my poor performance.”

I was in a top Raiding guild in WoW from Vanilla through Sunwell, constantly making server firsts.

No, you weren’t. No one raiding in WoW, Rift, or other MMOs right now takes GW2 PVE seriously, even the people who play it along with other games.

TheDaiBish.9735:

Well, I used to raid.

I much prefer GW2’s design over just standing there, filling health bars (I used to heal). Maybe occasionally use a skill that reduced damage taken.

Most encounter designs from the trinity could be implemented without the trinity as well, outside of the obvious keeping aggro, filling healthbars and keeping the tank up.

So you fear responsibility. Got it.

Vasham.2408:

TheDaiBish.9735:

Vasham.2408:

I’d love everyone championing this game’s broken “no trinity” design to spend one day raiding with a top 100 WoW guild. You’d be kicked before the first boss was killed.

And why is this exactly?

Because anyone who believes this game’s no trinity system leads to more challenging content is deluding themselves. However reality will never set in because these players prefer to exist in their little bubble of reality were “kite and dodge” is somehow the pinnacle of encounter design. If they stopped using entry level content in standard MMOs as a strawman and actually experienced some real PVE their minds would change quick.

“real PvE” as you put it has no dynamics in it. You have the trinity, the rest is just learning the script. In GW2, unless you are going to take the same exact class/build, there are a whole lot of dynamics in GW2 dungeons.

Vasham.2408:

TheDaiBish.9735:

Well, I used to raid.

I much prefer GW2’s design over just standing there, filling health bars (I used to heal). Maybe occasionally use a skill that reduced damage taken.

Most encounter designs from the trinity could be implemented without the trinity as well, outside of the obvious keeping aggro, filling healthbars and keeping the tank up.

So you fear responsibility. Got it.

I’ve been bringing my sister up from the age of 17, running a household as well as working 2 jobs.

And I fear responsibility? Really? Could you not come up with anything better?

No, I just find it more exciting than standing there clicking healthbars / going through a rotation.

Vasham.2408:

eisberg.2379:

Vasham.2408:

I’d love everyone championing this game’s broken “no trinity” design to spend one day raiding with a top 100 WoW guild. You’d be kicked before the first boss was killed. This is a classic example of how casuals think: “I’m a bad player, so when I chose an easier path I must demonize those with more skill to make them appear in the wrong, justifying my poor performance.”

I was in a top Raiding guild in WoW from Vanilla through Sunwell, constantly making server firsts.

No, you weren’t. No one raiding in WoW, Rift, or other MMOs right now takes GW2 PVE seriously, even the people who play it along with other games.

TheDaiBish.9735:

Well, I used to raid.

I much prefer GW2’s design over just standing there, filling health bars (I used to heal). Maybe occasionally use a skill that reduced damage taken.

Most encounter designs from the trinity could be implemented without the trinity as well, outside of the obvious keeping aggro, filling healthbars and keeping the tank up.

So you fear responsibility. Got it.

lol, obviously I am not raiding right now when I stated that I was raiding through Sunwell. I quit raiding after that when my son was born, and didn’t want to commit that kind of time to a game and just wanted to play casually. After playing casually for a while, I tried to get back into raiding on a more casual basis, but found it was incredibly boring, just a whole lot of trash mobs that took the same strategy over and over and over again, no challenge in those, and then when it came to boss fights, since I was running casually, I read about the boss fights before, had mods that told me when a boss was about to do something, and just followed the scripts between the mods and the raid leader, and it was all boring. Doing it competitively was really the only thrill out of raiding there was, trying to get the server first, quit playing like that for a while, perhaps because of my son, and gained some perspective and realized it was all dumb and no real challenge.

GW2 is the first MMO in a very very long time to actually have some challenge in dungeons, and I attribute much of that to there being no Trinitity and actually having some dynamics in encounters because of the different possibilities of group set up and character builds.

TheDaiBish.9735:

Vasham.2408:

TheDaiBish.9735:

Well, I used to raid.

I much prefer GW2’s design over just standing there, filling health bars (I used to heal). Maybe occasionally use a skill that reduced damage taken.

Most encounter designs from the trinity could be implemented without the trinity as well, outside of the obvious keeping aggro, filling healthbars and keeping the tank up.

So you fear responsibility. Got it.

I’ve been bringing my sister up from the age of 17, running a household as well as working 2 jobs.

And I fear responsibility? Really? Could you not come up with anything better?

When arguments start to be broken down, it can lead one to making things personal. In GW2 I find that every player in a dungeon actually has more responsibility then in a WoW dungeon where only the Healer/Tank have any real responsibility to the others in watching what is happening to the others.

Vasham.2408:

TheDaiBish.9735:

Well, I used to raid.

I much prefer GW2’s design over just standing there, filling health bars (I used to heal). Maybe occasionally use a skill that reduced damage taken.

Most encounter designs from the trinity could be implemented without the trinity as well, outside of the obvious keeping aggro, filling healthbars and keeping the tank up.

So you fear responsibility. Got it.

I do hope you’re kidding.

Because the assertion that every player having to self-regulate their own health, damage, and control statuses somehow makes them less responsible than a player who just shifts that job off onto the healer’s shoulders is laughable.

Vasham.2408:

I’d love everyone championing this game’s broken “no trinity” design to spend one day raiding with a top 100 WoW guild. You’d be kicked before the first boss was killed. This is a classic example of how casuals think: “I’m a bad player, so when I chose an easier path I must demonize those with more skill to make them appear in the wrong, justifying my poor performance.”

I did my share of WoW raiding. All raiding is in WoW is following a script. In Beta, the top guilds are given access to the raids and they’re told by Blizzard exactly how they are supposed to work. Those guilds practice them in Beta, learning the scripted fights, then create videos of those fight for posting so they can teach everyone else the script. I’ve main tanked many raid up through Lich King as well as dps’d on my MM hunter… it’s all the same. Watch the fight, learn the script, beat the fight.

VOLKON.1290:

Vasham.2408:

I’d love everyone championing this game’s broken “no trinity” design to spend one day raiding with a top 100 WoW guild. You’d be kicked before the first boss was killed. This is a classic example of how casuals think: “I’m a bad player, so when I chose an easier path I must demonize those with more skill to make them appear in the wrong, justifying my poor performance.”

I did my share of WoW raiding. All raiding is in WoW is following a script. In Beta, the top guilds are given access to the raids and they’re told by Blizzard exactly how they are supposed to work. Those guilds practice them in Beta, learning the scripted fights, then create videos of those fight for posting so they can teach everyone else the script. I’ve main tanked many raid up through Lich King as well as dps’d on my MM hunter… it’s all the same. Watch the fight, learn the script, beat the fight.

Yup. The only “challenge” is the gear check.

critickitten.1498:

Vasham.2408:

TheDaiBish.9735:

Well, I used to raid.

I much prefer GW2’s design over just standing there, filling health bars (I used to heal). Maybe occasionally use a skill that reduced damage taken.

Most encounter designs from the trinity could be implemented without the trinity as well, outside of the obvious keeping aggro, filling healthbars and keeping the tank up.

So you fear responsibility. Got it.

I do hope you’re kidding.

Because the assertion that every player having to self-regulate their own health, damage, and control statuses somehow makes them less responsible than a player who just shifts that job off onto the healer’s shoulders is laughable.

Not to mention each player having the responsibility to paying attention to the other on the team. Take my necro for instance, I spend most of the time DPSing, and keeping my self healed, but I pay attention to the rest of my team, because when I start to see conditions stacking on them, I am able to take that away from them, put it on my self, and then give it right back to the Mob. So yeah, instead of just 2 having any kind of real responsibility in a WoW dungeon, in GW2 the responsibility is on all 5.

Karizee.8076:

VOLKON.1290:

Vasham.2408:

I’d love everyone championing this game’s broken “no trinity” design to spend one day raiding with a top 100 WoW guild. You’d be kicked before the first boss was killed. This is a classic example of how casuals think: “I’m a bad player, so when I chose an easier path I must demonize those with more skill to make them appear in the wrong, justifying my poor performance.”

I did my share of WoW raiding. All raiding is in WoW is following a script. In Beta, the top guilds are given access to the raids and they’re told by Blizzard exactly how they are supposed to work. Those guilds practice them in Beta, learning the scripted fights, then create videos of those fight for posting so they can teach everyone else the script. I’ve main tanked many raid up through Lich King as well as dps’d on my MM hunter… it’s all the same. Watch the fight, learn the script, beat the fight.

Yup. The only “challenge” is the gear check.

Curse you! I’d forgotten about that plague on MMO history! Oh man, I really don’t miss that crap.

Buyers remorse? Really? Over a one time $60 purchase that people have likely sunk a couple of hundred hours into to come to the conclusions they have?

Bullkitten, thier ISP costs more per month.

GW2 has a few things going for it:

• Nice graphics
• Decent combat
• No loot or node stealing

However, I think the biggest selling point is, it doesn’t have any real competition in regards to other MMOs. I’ve been looking, there’s nothing. I think once TESO is released, we’ll see how the population here fares.

Has it ruined other MMOs for me? Not in the slightest. Yeah it has some good points, but they’re also countered by some awful ones.

Randulf.7614:

Depends on the mmo. I can happily play Anarchy and Secret World with no issues (TSW is similar to GW in some mechanics anyway and AO is so old school it was outdated long ago in all but charm and atmosphere).

LOTRO I sadly barely play now, but that may also be in part because the game is long past its best and has run out of steam/imagination (you can always tell when the focus shifts to “re-balancing” every year…) It’s also very slow and un-epic compared to GW. In that respect GW2 has killed an mmo for me (not that I’m complaining given how enjoyable GW2 turned out to be!)

I used to be big into LOTRO because of how they handled the lore and the story – keeping us adventurers as part of the Middle-earth story, but in such a way that it didn’t really run afoul of the lore and such of the books…

The pacing of the combat there never really bothered me, and I enjoyed their quest text more than others – wordy quest text for a game based on a wordy book, etc. It was the shift to “hey, it would be awesome for this to happen, though it directly contradicts events from the book” things that they started to add that got under my skin. Still, I’ve yet to see an under-ground region as epic as Moria. I thinkittenpt my Dwarven character down there, without leaving, for a solid 3 months when I was still playing.

Interesting, however, to note that they just did away with the mob-tagging mechanic on almost all the mobs – logged in a few days ago to poke around a bit for old times sake and saw that they’ve implemented a shared tag system like the one GW2 uses (Rift added something similar, as well).

While GW2 has “ruined” most other games for me (unless I’m looking for the specific story experience/atmosphere of LOTRO or TSW for a bit, or the shooty bang boom of PS2), it is nice to see ideas and mechanics from here that help promote better community play making its way into other games in the genre.

I feel completely the same! I was alpha testing FFXIV and I really just could not get into the game… It’s mostly just the fetch quests that every MMO seems to have now. :/ SUPER repetitive and un-interesting to me these days. GW2 has really changed my view of MMORPGs! I just love how casual and fun it is, especially with leveling up your own characters. Seems to have more life to it with constantly occurring events and interesting (humorous) characters.

“End-game” though; I kind of miss the large instances that past MMORPGs have. They could be tactical in different ways, and I enjoyed working together for that. I also miss my pet classes, because they were awesome. I however do not miss the competitive nature and the drama which comes with most of these games.

Vasham.2408:

VOLKON.1290:

Vasham.2408:

SneakyErvin.3056:

Vasham.2408:

If anything this game’s poor design has reaffirmed my faith in other MMOs were the developers actually put forth honest effort. GW2 feels like nothing but a formless mass of ideas that didn’t pan out, everything tried an afterthought to the next “big idea” that got abandoned down the line.

An example of the poor design would be nice to hear.

• Hearts replacing quests ruins replayability
• Personal story being devoid of meaningful choices despite being advertised otherwise
• Events are buggy and non-functional months after release
• Event bosses are mindless zergs
• Lack of the Holy Trinity effectively killed complex boss design
• sPVP is a complete joke, poorly balanced and completely abandoned
• WvW is nothing but zergs, capture trading, and door smashing
• Dungeons are a mess of bugs and erratic requirements, either too easy or full of fake difficulty
• Loot DR implemented to force gem purchases upon the playerbase
• Bots left to do their thing, ruining the economy
• Servers list accounts tied to server, not actual populations to hide poor player retention
• Legendary weapons not legendary, just a massive grind
• Trahearne (THIS IS MY STORY LOL)
• Zhaitan (SPAM 2 TO KILL THE ELDER DRAGON LOL)

Need I say more?

How about something factual this time?

If facts aren’t your definition of factual then there’s no helping you.

Almost all of those are just opinions, not facts.

Red Falcon.8257:

Vasham.2408:

• Hearts replacing quests ruins replayability
• Personal story being devoid of meaningful choices despite being advertised otherwise
• Events are buggy and non-functional months after release
• Event bosses are mindless zergs
• Lack of the Holy Trinity effectively killed complex boss design
• sPVP is a complete joke, poorly balanced and completely abandoned
• WvW is nothing but zergs, capture trading, and door smashing
• Dungeons are a mess of bugs and erratic requirements, either too easy or full of fake difficulty
• Loot DR implemented to force gem purchases upon the playerbase
• Bots left to do their thing, ruining the economy
• Servers list accounts tied to server, not actual populations to hide poor player retention
• Legendary weapons not legendary, just a massive grind
• Trahearne (THIS IS MY STORY LOL)
• Zhaitan (SPAM 2 TO KILL THE ELDER DRAGON LOL)

Need I say more?

He asked examples of poor design, not baseless dismissal with no reasoning/evidence.

I mean, you said one-man aggroing whole dungeon while one refills his health and others spam the same rotation is “complex boss design”, go figure.
My 9 yo nephew beats all wow dungeons so unless he’s a magician that is childproof boss design – yet he has very hard times playing GW2.
Bots have been banned in dozens of thousands and are hardly seen around anymore.
WvW zerg? By what logic “mass PvP” is supposed to be about small teams?
The only things you got right are poor design of Personal Story/Trahearne.

Need I say more?

wait what? bots hardly seen around anymore? what magical server filled candy and unicorns is this ? SHARE!

I can’t speak for anyone else, but I am still seeing truckloads of them, especially in zones like frostgorge.

I haven’t seen a bot in ages. Doesn’t mean they aren’t there but certainly a lot lower in number than in the first few months of release.

I’m surprised people still boast about questing in GW2. It seems like a clear case of the emperor’s new clothes.

I recently tried to pick up GW2 again and got instantly bored of collecting apples, trapping fish, and killings spiders. Removing a quest giver doesn’t suddenly make boring quests more interesting.

Tera: Horrible quest text, but combat makes the quest activities fun.
WoW: Bad quest text, but quest activities much more varied.
SWTOR: Great story cutscenes, but quest activities boring.
GW2: No quest text/bad story cutscenes, and boring quest activities.

Add in that GW2 has the least amount of leveling progression (very few ability upgrades), I get bored faster than any other MMO I’ve played. I do want to hit max level eventually, and appreciate the lack of sub, but I can’t stand the leveling in this game.

I feel different, because this game it feels like there are no tanks, and there are no raids. This game is missing a lot, it feels more like a competitive game than a MMORPG style type of game. Theres a lot of SOLOING in this game for one thing too, in your typical MMORPG theres more group game than solo game.

The combat in this game makes most of the other MMOs I have played seem like crap. I still hate the limited 1-5 weapon skills and worthless elites though….(norn warrior)

Antipode.2518:

I’m surprised people still boast about questing in GW2. It seems like a clear case of the emperor’s new clothes.

I recently tried to pick up GW2 again and got instantly bored of collecting apples, trapping fish, and killings spiders. Removing a quest giver doesn’t suddenly make boring quests more interesting.

Change a ! into a heart and people will believe that the quests are magically 100% more fun even with the same overused content.

I played WoW since release, I’m a huge fan of the franchise but can’t go back play it anymore. Ok maybe I’ll go when Sargeras shows up. The only thing that makes me go back is the storyline. The books were awesome as well.
In the other hand GW2 is better beyond any other mmo’s I’ve played but lack a good story.

gwawer.9805:

TSW is a great game, and currently the only other online game that I play other than Guild wars two. Honestly I’m getting sick of the whole medieval fantasy setting, and the atmosphere in TSW is very refreshing well-crafted.

The fantasy settings are wearing a bit thin for me also, but much like Warhammer, I found the swords and sorcery of Guild Wars different enough to be interesting. (I really wish Warhammer’s setting had been done as 40K though)

gwawer.9805:

The TSW developers are very close knit with the community and reveal a lot of details about upcoming changes and what not, unlike the developers in Guild wars two for some reason have to keep quiet and some seem paranoid about releasing details and getting punished by their boss for doing so.

TSW is really great and the community is great. Just look at the general forums for TSW and you can feel the love many players have for the game. I think there are many more mature players in that game versus in Guild wars two, where many kids just jumped on the bandwagon because they like jumping on the bandwagon of some popular game. TSW is more like a cult classic with very dedicated fans who are very attached to the game.

I think that these things are true for many niche games. The way you describe TSW reminds me of City of Heroes, which I played off and on for many years. Having a smaller more focused player base makes a lot of things possible that aren’t feasible for a game that sold millions of copies in a few months.

I do think that ANet has a passion for their game in the same way that the TSW folks do (and the Paragon folks did), but if you look around the forums, you’ll see it’s not their bosses that are punishing them for talking to us, it’s the folks on the forums. With a community this large, if any Dev says anything that isn’t a simple statement of fact, they more often than not get their post ripped apart and the ensuing kitten storm is ten times worse than if they had just kept silent.

You can’t be a close knit community of millions. I do think though that ANet’s communication has been pretty good. If you look at the news archive on the main site, there are plenty of articles on upcoming changes and talk about their vision for the game. I know lots of folks probably see it differently, but having been on the other side of the retail software fence, I appreciate the amount of work that those articles represent and I understand why it’s a bad idea to talk too freely about changes that aren’t really close to being completed and verified as working.

CorruptedSave.2570:

Antipode.2518:

I’m surprised people still boast about questing in GW2. It seems like a clear case of the emperor’s new clothes.

I recently tried to pick up GW2 again and got instantly bored of collecting apples, trapping fish, and killings spiders. Removing a quest giver doesn’t suddenly make boring quests more interesting.

Change a ! into a heart and people will believe that the quests are magically 100% more fun even with the same overused content.

Yes, because when people are talking about questing in this game, they are clearly talking about ONLY the heart quests…. /rolleyes

Perhaps you prefer to have ! over people heads and go complete the quest and turn it in and nothing changes in the game at all over having a dynamic event system where success or failure can make changes around you, and even have another event happen based on what happened before. Every one of my characters had some differences in each zone that another character didn’t see, this is something that cannot be said about every other MMO. Every other MMO is just the Heart Quests, at least GW2 is more then JUST the heart quests.

It is the dynamic event system that makes it more interesting, not the heart quests.

Antipode.2518:

I’m surprised people still boast about questing in GW2. It seems like a clear case of the emperor’s new clothes.

I recently tried to pick up GW2 again and got instantly bored of collecting apples, trapping fish, and killings spiders. Removing a quest giver doesn’t suddenly make boring quests more interesting.

Tera: Horrible quest text, but combat makes the quest activities fun.
WoW: Bad quest text, but quest activities much more varied.
SWTOR: Great story cutscenes, but quest activities boring.
GW2: No quest text/bad story cutscenes, and boring quest activities.

Add in that GW2 has the least amount of leveling progression (very few ability upgrades), I get bored faster than any other MMO I’ve played. I do want to hit max level eventually, and appreciate the lack of sub, but I can’t stand the leveling in this game.

Maybe you need to get past Queensdale? -.-
And WoW quest activities? They are the same as GW2 Heart Quests.

Antipode.2518:

I’m surprised people still boast about questing in GW2. It seems like a clear case of the emperor’s new clothes.

I recently tried to pick up GW2 again and got instantly bored of collecting apples, trapping fish, and killings spiders. Removing a quest giver doesn’t suddenly make boring quests more interesting.

Well you don’t have to do them at all though. They are 100% optional. You can easily get to level 80 without doing a single heart.

If you want the map completion, hearts are still much less annoying than your typical WoW style quest because you don’t have to go talk to someone to get the quest, or to get your reward for finishing it. You can complete all of them multiple ways, so you don’t have to scour the land for elusive single hooved Zevras. And almost every heart has a dynamic event that will complete the heart if you participate in it.

Ugh, I remember the amount of drudgery involved in trying to get my quests in WoW done with the least amount of walking while still balancing out which ones needed to be completed before they got too stale and didn’t give any XP. Even with the quest helper add-on it was really really tedious.

It’s so much easier to just wander around an area in GW2 and make progress no matter what I’m doing. Yeah sometimes I have to back track to a heart I didn’t quite complete, but it’s right there on the map as an empty heart. Usually with a way point close by. And it doesn’t matter what level I am when I finally get around to completing it.

eisberg.2379:

CorruptedSave.2570:

Antipode.2518:

I’m surprised people still boast about questing in GW2. It seems like a clear case of the emperor’s new clothes.

I recently tried to pick up GW2 again and got instantly bored of collecting apples, trapping fish, and killings spiders. Removing a quest giver doesn’t suddenly make boring quests more interesting.

Change a ! into a heart and people will believe that the quests are magically 100% more fun even with the same overused content.

Yes, because when people are talking about questing in this game, they are clearly talking about ONLY the heart quests…. /rolleyes

Perhaps you prefer to have ! over people heads and go complete the quest and turn it in and nothing changes in the game at all over having a dynamic event system where success or failure can make changes around you, and even have another event happen based on what happened before. Every one of my characters had some differences in each zone that another character didn’t see, this is something that cannot be said about every other MMO. Every other MMO is just the Heart Quests, at least GW2 is more then JUST the heart quests.

It is the dynamic event system that makes it more interesting, not the heart quests.

My bad, I did forget that there are dynamic events…

They also follow the “kill this many, pick this many, go here” setup. I suppose my statement can be applied to dynamic events as well, just change the “heart” into an orange circle, orange crossed swords, orange basket, ect.

There are a few DEs that are different and I give them props for that. Too bad they all couldn’t feel different.

@Vasham.2408:

*How are hearts different from quest when it comes to replayability, once you’ve done a quests you cant do it again in most MMOs.

*I have 5 level 80s now, I havent done the same personal story with either one of them, except for a few quests in the middle/end.

*Name a game that doesnt have bugs or get more buggy with patches when they fix other bugs. WoW is a prime example of a game with bugs where more bugs got introduced when some old ones were fixed, same with ToR. Also the events work pretty fine these days.

*Semi true, but its changing, see new Grenth and Melandru, mindless zergs there = wipe. Zergs also happens since they dont want people to miss out on the experience and bottleneck the max amount of players. WoW dragons werent much different, neither were city attacks on the leaders.

*Trinity doesnt make things harder, it doesnt make things more complex when it comes to boss mechanics. It’s still the same old scripted encounters, you learn them and they are easy, no matter which game. As this game is based around 5 mans, you cant expect more complexity than 5 mans in other games, which you have here. Or are you claiming WoW heroics and ToR instances had mad scripted boss fights? Sorry, but it deserves a big lol. You barely didnt need a healer in WoW 5 mans or ToR 5 mans, just a tank that knew his kitten and some “oh crap” heals if you pulled a bit too many mobs. And if you compare it to raid encounters, well then you are 20-35 man short in this game, so its no wonder they are designed like raid bosses…

*Who cares? It’s sPvP, it’s BG PvP, eSports, boredom. It’s boring in whichever game you play it, except in ToR actually, Huttball was a blast and the BG scenarios were fun in general.

*Then you havent truly WvWed my friend. It has the same base as DaoC had, you dont need to zerg, you can do alot as a commando team just fine and its alot more fun. Just like Anet said ages ago, there is something in WvW fitting everyones style. Personally I enjoy keep defense, assaults and commando guerilla tactics, aswell as kitten people in the JP.

*Havent run into many dungeon bugs in the last 2-3 months, no idea what you are talking about. Better since patch with the no ress at WP in combat, seems people concentrate more on the task at hand. Dreaded the Alpha fight after patch, turned out it wasnt bad at all.

*Not true if you know how to make gold. You also dont need tons of gold, 100g if you plan on leveling and gearing an alt, but all you really need when you are geared is to cover repair bills and travel really. I keep 3g per toon and the rest in bank, everything over 100g is turned into gems for later use. I’ve made 40g the last 2 days, just exploring on my latest 80 in Orr, doing a fractal or two.

*Havent seen many bots lately, it’s not more out of hand in this game than it’s been in every other MMO+D3. WoW is still littered with bots and hackers, after what, 9 years?

Tin foil hat time. Then thats odd since my server used to be very heavy a while back (SFR), but now it’s down on medium, there are still plenty of people *everywhere, even in lowbie zones, saw tons of people in every zone during the last week while leveling my warrior from 1-80.

*That I do agree on. Most of them also look butt ugly. Many of the “mystic” weapons look 100 times better… Mjolnir for instance <Drool>. But thats the same in every game, well WoW had it pretty right, those weapons took some “legendary” effort, cudos to Blizzard on that. But then again, how legendary were legendaries in D3… :P

*I dont mind Trahearne really.

*Agreed, Zhaitan was the anticlimax of the personal story, when in reality he should have been the big bad climax. But it’s something they can learn from when designing the continuation of the story. It’s just a bad personal quest, many of them were a blast though, so no biggy to me.

Neither of the things are gamebreaking or anything out of the ordinary compared to other games. I’m amazed you didnt bring up the “dem Anet pepulz browk dem minafezto” ascended/fractals thingy or the laurels.

I went back to “Fiesta Online” just to catch a feel for the game, and there’s just no comparison. GW2 totally destroys that game, which is bitter sweet cuz I really liked that game been the only mmo I played b4 GW2

eisberg.2379:

Antipode.2518:

I’m surprised people still boast about questing in GW2. It seems like a clear case of the emperor’s new clothes.

I recently tried to pick up GW2 again and got instantly bored of collecting apples, trapping fish, and killings spiders. Removing a quest giver doesn’t suddenly make boring quests more interesting.

Tera: Horrible quest text, but combat makes the quest activities fun.
WoW: Bad quest text, but quest activities much more varied.
SWTOR: Great story cutscenes, but quest activities boring.
GW2: No quest text/bad story cutscenes, and boring quest activities.

Add in that GW2 has the least amount of leveling progression (very few ability upgrades), I get bored faster than any other MMO I’ve played. I do want to hit max level eventually, and appreciate the lack of sub, but I can’t stand the leveling in this game.

Maybe you need to get past Queensdale? -.-
And WoW quest activities? They are the same as GW2 Heart Quests.

Hey, I made it to Kessex Hills!

The dynamic quests in the first two zones were no better than run-of- the-mill MMO quests. Kill bigger/waves of monsters, escort, or a timed event to help someone do a mundane task. None of them changed the environment in any significant manner. Kessex Hills felt like escort quest after escort quest.

The quest activities in WoW have greatly improved over the years. I quit before Cataclysm, but the quest variety in Northrend had by far the most variety of the MMOs I listed.