Guild Wars 2

^Isn’t that just the thing that is taking time though. They don’t have those tools. They can mass-remove stuff like this without first making the tools to do it.

Zygil.1276:

It’s a thought but couldn’t all accounts be “de-linked” from GW1, then wipe all associated Titles and Achievement Points gained? Afterwards, players would just need to re link their account to unlock everything they actually had and pick up where they left off.

I thought that too, but apparently they can only remove titles and achieves manually, one account at a time. They need to creade tools for massediting accounts first.
Why they didn’t have such tools earlier is a different question.

Even if they gave one guy the task of removing titles/achivements one at a time. In the two or so months that have passed, im sure if he spent all the time working on it it would have been done by now.

Every day that passes that we get no response, no eta, and no HoM is just a giant middle finger to everyone who earned everything legit.

Plz update or fix this anet, I’m growing tired of waiting :/

Raven.3957:

Even if they gave one guy the task of removing titles/achivements one at a time. In the two or so months that have passed, im sure if he spent all the time working on it it would have been done by now.

Every day that passes that we get no response, no eta, and no HoM is just a giant middle finger to everyone who earned everything legit.

Plz update or fix this anet, I’m growing tired of waiting :/

Lets say that there are 3 million accounts.
Now lets say 500 000 of those wrongfully got the titles/achievements.
That means that said employee would need to go through about 8333 accounts per day every day (including weekends) for two months.

And that is of course assuming that all said employee does is doing this, which is extremely unlikely that NCSoft would pay for.

Yes, it is annoying that it is not fixed yet, but is it really worse to have to wait a bit (for stuff that you WILL get when it is fixed) than to have people running around with titles/achievements they have not earned?

They have given a response. In this very thread in fact.

lordkrall.7241:

Raven.3957:

Even if they gave one guy the task of removing titles/achivements one at a time. In the two or so months that have passed, im sure if he spent all the time working on it it would have been done by now.

Every day that passes that we get no response, no eta, and no HoM is just a giant middle finger to everyone who earned everything legit.

Plz update or fix this anet, I’m growing tired of waiting :/

Lets say that there are 3 million accounts.
Now lets say 500 000 of those wrongfully got the titles/achievements.
That means that said employee would need to go through about 8333 accounts per day every day (including weekends) for two months.

And that is of course assuming that all said employee does is doing this, which is extremely unlikely that NCSoft would pay for.

Yes, it is annoying that it is not fixed yet, but is it really worse to have to wait a bit (for stuff that you WILL get when it is fixed) than to have people running around with titles/achievements they have not earned?

They have given a response. In this very thread in fact.

Your made up numbers dont make me any less upset. Because thats all they are, made up numbers. Lets say out of 3 million accounts only 10,000 got this bug.

Over the two months (lets say 62 days) they would need to fix 161 accounts a day (if it were only ONE person doing this) Lets say there working 10 hours a day, thats 16 accounts an hour.

16 accounts an hour/ 161 accounts a day is far more reasonable. I like my made up numbers better then yours.

Either way, I would rather them do this the easy way.. here it is.. UNLOCK THE HoM VENDOR! omg so difficult?.. Then when they make their widespread achievement/title remover, they can just tack on a skin remover and be set. Then they can take 10 years to fix this crap and not effect the people who actually EARNED their skins.

Raven.3957:

Your made up numbers dont make me any less upset. Because thats all they are, made up numbers. Lets say out of 3 million accounts only 10,000 got this bug.

Over the two months (lets say 62 days) they would need to fix 161 accounts a day (if it were only ONE person doing this) Lets say there working 10 hours a day, thats 16 accounts an hour.

16 accounts an hour/ 161 accounts a day is far more reasonable. I like my made up numbers better then yours.

Either way, I would rather them do this the easy way.. here it is.. UNLOCK THE HoM VENDOR! omg so difficult?.. Then when they make their widespread achievement/title remover, they can just tack on a skin remover and be set. Then they can take 10 years to fix this crap and not effect the people who actually EARNED their skins.

Id rather wait so those that didnt earn them cant use them period Im waiting too so i can get my ranger pets. But ya know what, id rather wait than have more players running around with stuff they didnt earn.

Dante.1763:

Id rather wait so those that didnt earn them cant use them period Im waiting too so i can get my ranger pets. But ya know what, id rather wait than have more players running around with stuff they didnt earn.

Why? Theres already people running around with titles they didnt earn? And theres more then likley going to be more people effected by not having access then people who are going to use the skins that didnt earn them.

To top that off, anet could kindly ask them NOT to get the skins, and threaten bans or such if they do use them without having earned them.

Honestly, I would not mind waiting a few weeks, or a few days.. or even a month if someone would just tell us WHEN they THINK that this will be resolved, as opposed to saying “were working on it” and leaving us in the dark. Working on it and its almost done? Working on it and barley scratched the surface? Working on it but is gonna take years? Working on it but its gonna take another week?.. Something.

Its been months as is, and we’ve had nothing to go on besides there “working on it”

5 years from now they could still be working on it, i’m sure you will be a lot less patient then. In a game where skins are everything, this is the equivalent to a heroic dungeon in WoW being down for an undisclosed amount of time. Granted that Anet is no where near as big as Blizzard, the reference was only to make a point. Guildwars is all about skins and making yourself look cool. Theres no gear grind, theres no gear treadmill, its all for skins. If you busted your kitten up until now and the second you were about to make your legendary just happened to be the second the mystic forge was disabled… Im sure you would be like “Okay, whatever..” the first day.. a bit more miffed after the first week.. annoyed after the first month.. and then as months and months pass im sure you would be kittened you were so close.. sitting on all the stuff you need to have that legendary, watching all your friends have it and you dont, when you know you should.

Im empathetic to those who might be offended by people running around using things they didnt deserve. It would upset me too, really It would.

But im more upset that I cant use something I’ve earned, then how upset I would be if someone else had it. I can be more patient having it myself and waiting for them to have it removed, then I can be patient waiting for it to be fixed eventually where no one has it.

Raven.3957:

To top that off, anet could kindly ask them NOT to get the skins, and threaten bans or such if they do use them without having earned them.

Found the idealist.

CETheLucid.3964:

Raven.3957:

To top that off, anet could kindly ask them NOT to get the skins, and threaten bans or such if they do use them without having earned them.

Found the idealist.

Actually not a real idealist as there is the threat of (perma) bans.

To minimize the effort for keeping people play according to the rules one could go the extreme way of putting complete trust into people first and apply draconian punishment (perma ban) in case an abuse pops to the surface.
It’s then more important to let everybody know what happened to this bad guy than to actually catch them all.

In terms of efficiency there is probably no better way to deal with it, but I guess it takes some balls to do so.

Any update on your progress with this issue, Anet?

Raven.3957:

Dante.1763:

Id rather wait so those that didnt earn them cant use them period Im waiting too so i can get my ranger pets. But ya know what, id rather wait than have more players running around with stuff they didnt earn.

Why? Theres already people running around with titles they didnt earn? And theres more then likley going to be more people effected by not having access then people who are going to use the skins that didnt earn them.

To top that off, anet could kindly ask them NOT to get the skins, and threaten bans or such if they do use them without having earned them.

Honestly, I would not mind waiting a few weeks, or a few days.. or even a month if someone would just tell us WHEN they THINK that this will be resolved, as opposed to saying “were working on it” and leaving us in the dark. Working on it and its almost done? Working on it and barley scratched the surface? Working on it but is gonna take years? Working on it but its gonna take another week?.. Something.

Its been months as is, and we’ve had nothing to go on besides there “working on it”

5 years from now they could still be working on it, i’m sure you will be a lot less patient then. In a game where skins are everything, this is the equivalent to a heroic dungeon in WoW being down for an undisclosed amount of time. Granted that Anet is no where near as big as Blizzard, the reference was only to make a point. Guildwars is all about skins and making yourself look cool. Theres no gear grind, theres no gear treadmill, its all for skins. If you busted your kitten up until now and the second you were about to make your legendary just happened to be the second the mystic forge was disabled… Im sure you would be like “Okay, whatever..” the first day.. a bit more miffed after the first week.. annoyed after the first month.. and then as months and months pass im sure you would be kittened you were so close.. sitting on all the stuff you need to have that legendary, watching all your friends have it and you dont, when you know you should.

Im empathetic to those who might be offended by people running around using things they didnt deserve. It would upset me too, really It would.

But im more upset that I cant use something I’ve earned, then how upset I would be if someone else had it. I can be more patient having it myself and waiting for them to have it removed, then I can be patient waiting for it to be fixed eventually where no one has it.

Most people on this side of the argument do not seem to have thought it through very well but this guy’s point is very valid.

Seems to me allowing access to the rewards people worked for should trump protecting the exclusivity of those rewards.

Some people worked for the rewards because they liked the skin, title, or pet, and wanted to use them on their GW2 characters. Others worked for the rewards because they wanted some GW1 bragging right that no one else really cares about.

ArenaNet, please think of the first group.

Gibson.4036:

Seems to me allowing access to the rewards people worked for should trump protecting the exclusivity of those rewards.

Some people worked for the rewards because they liked the skin, title, or pet, and wanted to use them on their GW2 characters. Others worked for the rewards because they wanted some GW1 bragging right that no one else really cares about.

ArenaNet, please think of the first group.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Instant-God-Walking-Amongst-Mere-Mortals/page/8#post5098920

Read the last three? i think responses, they are very very true. The damage to this is contained right now, but if they enable the HoM it will be insanely hard to fix what is already a challenging fix.

To the person who quoted me earlier, you dont know me then(Obviously), i have this thing called patience. I waited 2 months for a class mechanic to be fixed, im willing to wait longer for a skin(yes a pet is just a skin) to be gotten. Id rather wait and let them fix it with minimal work compared to what would happen if they had just left it on.

Some people seem to think this is some huge, hard issue, when it is not.

We should have two separate databases. GW1 and GW2.

The only way the issue becomes a complex fix, is if the act of linking accounts deletes your GW1 progress for the GW1 database and puts it in the GW2 database, or if the error magically created a GW1 database for people who only had GW2. In any other scenario they should be able to use each database as reference. Even if one of the above occurred, they could use GW1 playtime, achievements, map completion to use as a reasonable reference of the HOM authenticity.

The first part of a fix would be to run a query which basically says: list GW2 users with HOM points and no GW1 account. Once you are satisfied with the results, you run that query with the additional flags that remove what ever enables HOM access and rewards.

At this point they have 90% of the problem fixed. They now run similar queries but include hours played, Outpost Unlocks, Missions completed, etc. and eliminate the next 9.999%. Then they can decide if it is worth it to fix the remaining extremely small percentage of people who have GW1 and were only a few points away from maxing anyway.

Another scenario: What if the data is there in GW1, but coding wise can only be updated if the HOM is updated inside your GW1 account or you re-link? So they clear all HOM data from GW2 for all players. They add a new item to GW1 (and 1 new HOM point) that can only be accessed by a relatively well played account. You buy the item for 1k, add it to your HOM, your points update with the correct amount +1 and we are all golden again.

TLDR: For any well designed Database the fix is trivial. For weird cases, there is some potential fixes outlined that would take about a week to implement.

zalirelbonecrusher.2357:

TLDR: For any well designed Database the fix is trivial. For weird cases, there is some potential fixes outlined that would take about a week to implement.

I think the issue here isn’t how simple or difficult the fix is, its the fact that Arenanet is FAR smaller then a company like Blizzard, and is not physically capable of sparing the one person to run the searches/reverse the damage when they are using EVERY last person they have to fix bugs that effect 100% of the player base, while also developing an expansion.

~If they had more people this would have been fixed already.
~If they didn’t have a large pile of bug fixes that effect everyone this would have been fixed already
~If they weren’t releasing HoT soon, this would have been fixed already.

It all comes down to this only effects a niche (the people who have HoM points) within a niche (the people with HoM points that have yet to claim their skins.)

That small amount of people i’m sure makes this issue far less important then a broken class skill or game mechanic that effects everyone as a whole. I would be less upset about the whole ordeal if they were trying to work with us or at LEAST give us an eta. Telling us were working on it doesn’t give any of us any idea of how soon its going to be addressed or corrected. As I mentioned earlier, you could be “working on it” for 5 years and never get to fixing it. “Working on it” doesn’t instill confidence that its going to be fixed, telling me it should be up in a month or two, even if it ends up being three is much better and makes me a lot less antsy.

You know, I have an idea that you might be able to implement temporarily anet. I hope a dev actually reads this and takes it to heart if they are having serious issues coming up with the time to develop a tool to remove everything illegitimately earned before enabling HoM..

Gw2 specifically checks to see via some link to the Gw1 servers that you have x amount of points before allowing you to access the vendor (Kimmes) in gw2. Meaning that if its associated with that, and not with achievement points or titles in gw2, can you not make it so that you enable HoM, but people without the actual points wont have the points to buy things with?

IE: reset the connection or what have you so that people with fake points have to basicly re-request access to their points. Making it so that they go to talk to Kimmes, and when they do hes going to be all “You don’t have a legacy” because obviously they don’t actually have a HoM in gw1. This will make it so they cannot access the skins and such, but will obviously still have the un-earned titles and achievement points they already have.

BUT with that in mind, people who HAVE earned points will talk to Kimmes, he will recognize the real points, then give them access to the vendor.

Then everyone gets what they want, people who earned skins get their skins. People who haven’t wont, and anet can work at their leisure on removing the titles/achievement points from players who don;t deserve them.

This sounds really easy to me, if your system works the way I think it would. It would just be a matter of pressing a big ol’ reset button at one point in time and going through the server stress of so many people re-claiming their HoM status in gw2 (that shouldnt be a real issue, honestly.)

I can only pray a dev sees this post now :c

Yes I hope a dev can update us on the situation as where it stands right now. I bought EOTN a couple weeks ago and was hoping to get the goodies, but alas “Content disabled try back later”

I feel like people with HoM points is a bit more than a niche of the community. I recently decided I wanted the raven and was only a few points away, got it unlocked only to realize I can’t have it. :/

And developing these kinds of tools really shouldn’t take very long. I have only recently returned to the game too, I feel super bad for the people who have been waiting this whole time, geez.

Even though it might be a bit narrowminded, how about – if the identification of those “hit” by the bug isn’t part of the issue – add a kind of tag to the merchant and the players in question; or however one would implement it, that bars the ones “hit” by the bug from acquiring the skins in the Hall of Monuments while allowing those that legitimately qualified for the acquisition to get their shinies.

- One could view that attempt as hotfix, the majority of player would be satisfied and it’d give a bit more time to find a solution before people get too upset about it.
It would still be possible to revert the damage inflicted by the initial bug; it might even be easier to implement a proper solution with such a tag-thingy in place, as the tag itself could be used in future automation.

Chris Cleary.8017:

circuitnerd.5863:

Yes I hope a dev can update us on the situation as where it stands right now. I bought EOTN a couple weeks ago and was hoping to get the goodies, but alas “Content disabled try back later”

We’re close, seriously.

So, this is a … “soon ™” ?

Chris Cleary.8017:

circuitnerd.5863:

Yes I hope a dev can update us on the situation as where it stands right now. I bought EOTN a couple weeks ago and was hoping to get the goodies, but alas “Content disabled try back later”

We’re close, seriously.

Oooh, that’s actually really encouraging. I really appreciate something other than “We’re working on it”. I mean it, thank you.

Chris Cleary.8017:

circuitnerd.5863:

Yes I hope a dev can update us on the situation as where it stands right now. I bought EOTN a couple weeks ago and was hoping to get the goodies, but alas “Content disabled try back later”

We’re close, seriously.

Thank you for the update!

Izu.8123:

Ah, I guess I have to progress through EotN to unlock these http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Monumental_Tapestry ?
Thanks

You can share them between characters. Just run 3 more characters to the eye and boom 4 tapestries.

Dinks.2478:

Izu.8123:

Ah, I guess I have to progress through EotN to unlock these http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Monumental_Tapestry ?
Thanks

You can share them between characters. Just run 3 more characters to the eye and boom 4 tapestries.

You can also buy them from others. Just go to Kamadan and buy some. They’re pretty cheap if you buy from the right person.

I have a few tapestries if someone needs them.

Chris Cleary.8017:

circuitnerd.5863:

Yes I hope a dev can update us on the situation as where it stands right now. I bought EOTN a couple weeks ago and was hoping to get the goodies, but alas “Content disabled try back later”

We’re close, seriously.

Good to know

Yay! A wild soon appears, quick guys capture it with a masterball before it escapes! :P No really, thank you for the news Chris!

Soon is very hopeful, and the update is rather appreciated; thank you.

Now to hope and pray that soon means days and not weeks lol

Chris Cleary.8017:

I’ll go ahead and comment on this thread, as it seems to be the most recent of the HOM ones.

I’ll try to explain this without getting too technical, and some parts are probably going to have to be left out.

The bug that caused players to unlock achievements/skins/titles and achievement points was caused when the GW1 server that stores the HOM status talks to the GW2 server that controls new character creation. Basically it was sending bad data to the GW2 server, and unlocking achievements that should not have been unlocked.

This means that there were multiple problem points that need to be cleaned up. The first thing to be cleaned up was the bug that caused this to happen, and that was fixed within a few hours. However, the removal of the rewards is an entirely different problem.

We don’t have the tools to easily mass remove achievements/titles, which means it’s something that has to be developed. Unfortunately, this came at a time where our resources are tapped to the max, so it’s taking longer than we would like to fix this.

Thankfully (lol), when the HOM rewards bug was happening, the actual HOM was not accessible, and those players were not able to claim any other HOM entitlements…so the damage was somewhat limited.

We are working on this, I assure you, and we will remove the rewards from players that should not have received them. I do not have a timeframe, as modifying accounts at this type of level is not something we would ever take lightly, and as long as we keep a majority of the entitlements locked there is less for us to clean up.

Great to hear your all doing your best to rectify this issue, My only question is what can us long long term supporters of Anet with high level HoM that spent countless hours grinding in preparation of GW2 expect as added bonus’s once we receive our HoM back? sweet sweet treasure!!!???

Why would they give us an added bonus?
HoM rewards being unusable for a while does in no way or form effect the playability of the game. Therefore there is no reason to compensate.

lordkrall.7241:

Why would they give us an added bonus?
HoM rewards being unusable for a while does in no way or form effect the playability of the game. Therefore there is no reason to compensate.

I fully agree, there is no reason to expect extras when there is no warrant for them.

lordkrall.7241:

Why would they give us an added bonus?
HoM rewards being unusable for a while does in no way or form effect the playability of the game. Therefore there is no reason to compensate.

This.

yakuza snowdragon.4639:

Chris Cleary.8017:

I’ll go ahead and comment on this thread, as it seems to be the most recent of the HOM ones.

I’ll try to explain this without getting too technical, and some parts are probably going to have to be left out.

The bug that caused players to unlock achievements/skins/titles and achievement points was caused when the GW1 server that stores the HOM status talks to the GW2 server that controls new character creation. Basically it was sending bad data to the GW2 server, and unlocking achievements that should not have been unlocked.

This means that there were multiple problem points that need to be cleaned up. The first thing to be cleaned up was the bug that caused this to happen, and that was fixed within a few hours. However, the removal of the rewards is an entirely different problem.

We don’t have the tools to easily mass remove achievements/titles, which means it’s something that has to be developed. Unfortunately, this came at a time where our resources are tapped to the max, so it’s taking longer than we would like to fix this.

Thankfully (lol), when the HOM rewards bug was happening, the actual HOM was not accessible, and those players were not able to claim any other HOM entitlements…so the damage was somewhat limited.

We are working on this, I assure you, and we will remove the rewards from players that should not have received them. I do not have a timeframe, as modifying accounts at this type of level is not something we would ever take lightly, and as long as we keep a majority of the entitlements locked there is less for us to clean up.

Great to hear your all doing your best to rectify this issue, My only question is what can us long long term supporters of Anet with high level HoM that spent countless hours grinding in preparation of GW2 expect as added bonus’s once we receive our HoM back? sweet sweet treasure!!!???

What are you talking about? If you accessed the HoM any time before this bug then you’ve been able to use them as much as you wish. If you haven’t accessed your HoM in the last 2&1/2 years, it’s hardly been of any importance to you.

50/50 HoM here who thinks your request for more is unreasonable.

I wonder to what level they are going to fix it. Like im sure they will remove the titles. and the hom points, but what about the 400ish achievement points? and the rewards that most players got from achievement chests from those points…Some people have suggested that the next 400 points those players earned basically don’t count but that would really discourage me from going for achievements… which is mostly all i am doing lately.

Therodin.2970:

I wonder to what level they are going to fix it. Like im sure they will remove the titles. and the hom points, but what about the 400ish achievement points? and the rewards that most players got from achievement chests from those points…Some people have suggested that the next 400 points those players earned basically don’t count but that would really discourage me from going for achievements… which is mostly all i am doing lately.

I haven’t really followed this so closely, but if it’s just achi points and nothing else, then my guess would be to set the achi points back as many points as was gained unearned. Taking back the reward chests might be practically impossible, although I couldn’t say for sure. If it simply worked so that you gain no additional rewards until you pass that mark where you were, that would probably be good enough.

But it’s kind of useless to speculate on it – we’ll see when the fix is released.

What comes to any kind of compensation, it would be difficult because different people are affected in different ways – and it’s almost impossible to determine how much a particular player has been affected. For example I’m at 50/50 but don’t feel like I’ve really been affected in my play in any major way.

At most, I’d suppose some overall nicety could be introduced for HoM that would benefit everyone regardless of them being affected by the issue or not – and at the same time it would work as an added incentive to increasing HoM ranks.

hello,
i posted up last week wondering if there was any news and someone posted a link to a previous post saying how they are close to fixing it… how close is close??

As many of us still play gw1 in the hope to get more HOM points, when will you be making it available for us to claim the skins etc, we know people managed to cheat the HOM but you disabled it, HAVE YOU FORGOTTEN ABOUT US?! Please get it up and running soon!

P.S Hurry up and bring out Heart Of Thorns =]

- J E C -

2 Days ago red post in the main thread on this topic:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Hall-of-Monuments-Update/page/4#post5109197

From The Above Post This Is What Was Said

Chris Cleary
Game Security Lead
circuitnerd.5863:

We’re close, seriously.

Evil Never Sleeps // Professor of Bearbow Math @ Tyria State // @Shazbawt

thanks … JustTrogdor.7892

This is really bothering me because for the 10th anniversary of GW1, I went around and did a bunch of achievements and unlocked things in my Hall of Monuments that I wanted to use on my characters in GW2. I come back to GW2 and discover that I can no longer obtain these items I had just worked to get. It has now been several weeks, and I still have not been able to reap the rewards of my effort. So now I ask, will the Hall of Monuments be reopened soon?

Last update 4 days ago posted in the main thread on this topic. They are close to a fix:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Hall-of-Monuments-Update/page/4#post5109197

Is close gonna be this weekend, or even this week? Or close meaning in a few months, instead of a few years?

Raven.3957:

Is close gonna be this weekend, or even this week? Or close meaning in a few months, instead of a few years?

Close is usually 2-3 weeks. When they said they where close to fixing the ranger pet mechanic they had it out in about 3 weeks if i recall, for a total broken time of almost 3 months.

Raven.3957:

Is close gonna be this weekend, or even this week? Or close meaning in a few months, instead of a few years?

Regular updates always happens on Tuesdays nowadays. Unless there is something very broken that need asap fixing and then they will launch a hot-fix when they have a fix.

This issue does not effect the playability of the game at all, so they will just push it out together with a regular patch.

Chris Cleary.8017:

circuitnerd.5863:

Yes I hope a dev can update us on the situation as where it stands right now. I bought EOTN a couple weeks ago and was hoping to get the goodies, but alas “Content disabled try back later”

We’re close, seriously.

Can you explain how close utilizing the well-known ArenaNet measurement of “soon™”?

Is it one soon™, two soon™s, or half a soon™? Perhaps quarter of a soon™?

I think we need a conversion table for all these phrases.

Close, soon™, when it’s ready™, and on the table. How much of each is how much of the others? :x

Oh, look! E3 is in 2 weeks…

So did the bug affect GW1? Not sure why they can’t program something to verify GW1 progression and then sync/overwrite actual progression with all linked GW2 accounts. Why would an actual person be required to check each account?

Mo Mo.1947:

So did the bug affect GW1? Not sure why they can’t program something to verify GW1 progression and then sync/overwrite actual progression with all linked GW2 accounts. Why would an actual person be required to check each account?

It did not.

It is not a matter of checking which is the rightful receiver or not however. It is simply the fact that they don’t (or didn’t) have the tools to mass-remove stuff from accounts.

But making completely new tool for something (especially when the vast majority of the coders are working on an expansion) takes time.