Guild Wars 2

Vayne.8563:

Xcom.1926:

Vayne.8563:

No one seems to remember Eric Flannum pre launch telling us there would be stuff to grind for….just as there was plenty of stuff to grind for in Guild Wars 1.

Probably because ANet didn’t feature it somewhere in their official publications and advertising. I am sure he isn’t in the Manifesto.

Sure, he’s not. But what Colin was saying in the manifesto is pretty clearly not talking about GRIND, it’s talking about a specific type of grind.

Grind can mean more than one thing. The definitions of grind are:

1. Killing mobs to earn experience to level
2. Doing repetitive tasks to get higher level gear

When you look what Colin was saying, the whole paragraph…there’s no mention of gear at all. Nothing about that. He’s talking about combat and hes’ talking about “fun things to do”. How anyone can imagine he’s talking about gear grind there, when he’s obviously (to me anyway) using the original definition of grind, I don’t know.

No he just said “grind”, but you can twist it however you like. How are you going to twist this from back in page 5:

“Here’s what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games — we leave the grind to other MMOs.” – Mike O’Brien, President of Arenanet

I guess he meant a different “grind” too, huh?

Oh also you skipped Ree saying “You are rescuing a village that will stay rescued”, missed that part too?

I am not holding devs to every word that would be silly, but I do hold them to honor the core fundamentals that they promised.

Khal Drogo.9631:

I think a lot of people arent really complaining about the ascended tier per se (albeit a few are concerned about a neverending treadmill) but the amount of grind required to obtain ONE weapon as opposed to getting a ring and accessory. Cannot imagine what has to be done for ascended armor.

I for one, am complaining that the gear even exists. This is my main issue with GW2, and why I quit playing. The amount of grind is a distant second place in my complaint department. Actually, it’d be third, after the endless AP grind, followed by poor Living Story and Personal Story quality.

I really can’t find a reason to play any more. What are my options?

1) grind gear
2) grind meaningless AP
3) do the same set of dungeons that have been in the game since launch.
4) play a poorly written living story, in a blind panic to get the achievements in time, before they go away.

Since Fractals, there have been no new dungeons. WvW is essentially the same zergfest it’s been since launch, and sPvP has had few meaningful improvements – it’s still the same old same old, at heart.

The few bits of really good content that ArenaNet have come up with since launch were temporary, and can’t be played any more.

So what’s my motivation to stick around? There isn’t. The only reason I still come to these forums is because I was a huge Guild Wars fan, and I keep hoping they’ll find a way to plug the leaks in the sinking ship that’s becoming GW2.

Xcom.1926:

Oh also you skipped Ree saying “You are rescuing a village that will stay rescued”, missed that part too?

I am not holding devs to every word that would be silly, but I do hold them to honor the core fundamentals that they promised.

Did you miss the clarification published 3 days after the manifesto that was around for a year or more that explains Ree was talking about personal stories and Colin was talking about dynamic events?

Xcom.1926:

Vayne.8563:

Xcom.1926:

Vayne.8563:

No one seems to remember Eric Flannum pre launch telling us there would be stuff to grind for….just as there was plenty of stuff to grind for in Guild Wars 1.

Probably because ANet didn’t feature it somewhere in their official publications and advertising. I am sure he isn’t in the Manifesto.

Sure, he’s not. But what Colin was saying in the manifesto is pretty clearly not talking about GRIND, it’s talking about a specific type of grind.

Grind can mean more than one thing. The definitions of grind are:

1. Killing mobs to earn experience to level
2. Doing repetitive tasks to get higher level gear

When you look what Colin was saying, the whole paragraph…there’s no mention of gear at all. Nothing about that. He’s talking about combat and hes’ talking about “fun things to do”. How anyone can imagine he’s talking about gear grind there, when he’s obviously (to me anyway) using the original definition of grind, I don’t know.

No he just said “grind”, but you can twist it however you like. How are you going to twist this from back in page 5:

“Here’s what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games — we leave the grind to other MMOs.” – Mike O’Brien, President of Arenanet

I guess he meant a different “grind” too, huh?

I’m not twisting what Colin said, because we talked about the manifesto. Looking at Anet’s web page for Guild Wars 2, grind and vertical progression was barely mentioned at all. They talked about dynamic events, personal stories, and a living breathing world. That’s the main thing the game was marketed on.

If you can find 3 quotes over five years that say vertical progression….okay, you’ve found three quotes. So what? It’s three quotes over five years.

There were literally hundreds of hours talking about everything else. It’s people’s focus that make this the depth of the promise it was, not what was actually said.

By percentage, Anet talked about vertical progression very little.

Vayne.8563:

Xcom.1926:

Oh also you skipped Ree saying “You are rescuing a village that will stay rescued”, missed that part too?

I am not holding devs to every word that would be silly, but I do hold them to honor the core fundamentals that they promised.

Did you miss the clarification published 3 days after the manifesto that was around for a year or more that explains Ree was talking about personal stories and Colin was talking about dynamic events?

They made that up so that it’ll defend their statements…….Lying through the first statement and then oh wait i want to clarify…………BS

Vayne.8563:

I simply don’t see the game as having been misrepresented…at least no more than Rift was to me. Because of my experience with Rift, I was saved going through the same thing with Guild Wars 2. I had believed what was said about Rift and most of that never eventuated. The stuff that was said wasn’t born out. And yes, I was one of the people complaining at the forums. Now I see it again. Some stuff was said and that stuff changed.

MMOs change all the time and have been changing forever. Those who write anything in stone about any MMO are fooling themselves. That’s just how I see it.

It’ll happen with the new MMOs too.

Coincidence?
I don’t know if that’s your account there, but judging from what he posted, even Rift had its own white knight Vayne.
If you’re not that guy there should be some sort of cosmic connection between all people who chose that nickname and you should look for him and kill him: There can be only one :|

Btw I agree with you when you say that even other mmorp will not keep their promises.

Xcom.1926:

Vayne.8563:

No one seems to remember Eric Flannum pre launch telling us there would be stuff to grind for….just as there was plenty of stuff to grind for in Guild Wars 1.

LOL I did a google search trying to find Eric Flannum say something like that and your name came up almost 5 times. You use this argument a lot don’t you? I will paste a quote from that thread:

“We will not be retaining the level 20 cap. [from GW1] We will announce the exact nature and level of the Guild Wars 2 level cap early next year but let me state that our philosophy of allowing players to play the game without grinding their life away is something that is unchanged from Guild Wars 1.” – Lead designer Eric Flannum

“Our goal with our crafting philosophically is that you’ll never make an item that is a throwaway item. You’ll always be making something that is going to be valuable to someone. Whether it’s for yourself, whether it’s to put on the auction house, whether it’s a consumable that people want, there’s never a time when you’re just making something to increase your skill and then you’re just going to vendor it or chuck it or whatever else you’d do with it afterwards.” – Lead designer Eric Flannum

Oh I already know your next response. Using the iteration argument basically means they can do anything and we can’t complain. You know trinity + raids + tier every 3 months can also be “iteration”.

You don’t know my next argument. Guild Wars 2 was promoted for five years and it was heavily promoted for the last two.

You’ve found a couple of quotes that Anet changed. Anet literally said hundreds and hundreds of things and by percentage, far more than 90% of them are true.

There are so many things Anet said that changed that almost no one complains about. Remember when Anet said there would be energy potions? I don’t hear anyone complaining that they took them out.

Anet made changes both positive and negative. No one complains about the changes that they see as positive. But they do complain about the stuff they see as negative. How come you’re not here lying that Anet said there would be energy potions?

It’s a lousy double standard. Things are planned and things change. That’s been the reality of every single MMO I’ve ever played.

Vayne.8563:

You’ve found a couple of quotes that Anet changed. Anet literally said hundreds and hundreds of things and by percentage, far more than 90% of them are true.

Nobody complains when you tell the truth. That’s almost a tautology. It’s also pretty universal, though, that if you tell one lie, forevermore you’re a liar.

If I told you the truth about everything, except one thing that mattered a great deal to you, would it be ok because 90% of everything else I said was true? I doubt it. And if it is Ok, I’ve got some swampland in Florida for sale…

Chuo.4238:

Vayne.8563:

You’ve found a couple of quotes that Anet changed. Anet literally said hundreds and hundreds of things and by percentage, far more than 90% of them are true.

Nobody complains when you tell the truth. That’s almost a tautology. It’s also pretty universal, though, that if you tell one lie, forevermore you’re a liar.

If I told you the truth about everything, except one thing that mattered a great deal to you, would it be ok because 90% of everything else I said was true? I doubt it. And if it is Ok, I’ve got some swampland in Florida for sale…

That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying no one was complaining that Anet “lied” about energy potions. No one used the word lie in reference to that. Anet changed their mind, but they agreed with it, so that change was okay.

That’s the very definition of double standard.

Chuo.4238:

Vayne.8563:

You’ve found a couple of quotes that Anet changed. Anet literally said hundreds and hundreds of things and by percentage, far more than 90% of them are true.

Nobody complains when you tell the truth. That’s almost a tautology. It’s also pretty universal, though, that if you tell one lie, forevermore you’re a liar.

If I told you the truth about everything, except one thing that mattered a great deal to you, would it be ok because 90% of everything else I said was true? I doubt it. And if it is Ok, I’ve got some swampland in Florida for sale…

I have a few bridges…excellent state

I think we now reached the schoolyard stage of “no – YOU are!”. Time for a thread closure :P

Algreg.3629:

I think we now reached the schoolyard stage of “no – YOU are!”. Time for a thread closure :P

I’m not actually calling anyone names or ignorant. People use such tactics when they run out of arguments. I’m against calling people names. It solves nothing. I simply point out when other people do it, because it weakens whatever arguments they might have had.

Vayne.8563:

Algreg.3629:

I think we now reached the schoolyard stage of “no – YOU are!”. Time for a thread closure :P

I’m not actually calling anyone names or ignorant. People use such tactics when they run out of arguments. I’m against calling people names. It solves nothing. I simply point out when other people do it, because it weakens whatever arguments they might have had.

oh, not talking about you especially, just the general tone it reached in here :P

Vayne.8563:

Algreg.3629:

I think we now reached the schoolyard stage of “no – YOU are!”. Time for a thread closure :P

I’m not actually calling anyone names or ignorant. People use such tactics when they run out of arguments. I’m against calling people names. It solves nothing. I simply point out when other people do it, because it weakens whatever arguments they might have had.

Says the guy who has called people names…….

xephire.8324:

Vayne.8563:

Algreg.3629:

I think we now reached the schoolyard stage of “no – YOU are!”. Time for a thread closure :P

I’m not actually calling anyone names or ignorant. People use such tactics when they run out of arguments. I’m against calling people names. It solves nothing. I simply point out when other people do it, because it weakens whatever arguments they might have had.

Says the guy who has called people names…….

If you can find where I’ve called people names, feel free to report the post. I’m sure I’ll get infracted for it if that’s the case.

I don´t know, infractions seem a bit like wb chests around here sometimes :P

Vayne.8563:

xephire.8324:

Vayne.8563:

Algreg.3629:

I think we now reached the schoolyard stage of “no – YOU are!”. Time for a thread closure :P

I’m not actually calling anyone names or ignorant. People use such tactics when they run out of arguments. I’m against calling people names. It solves nothing. I simply point out when other people do it, because it weakens whatever arguments they might have had.

Says the guy who has called people names…….

If you can find where I’ve called people names, feel free to report the post. I’m sure I’ll get infracted for it if that’s the case.

I’ve done so and i’ve seen your post been removed.

Algreg.3629:

I don´t know, infractions seem a bit like wb chests around here sometimes :P

Sometimes mods just get bored and give infractions for fun

Algreg.3629:

I think we now reached the schoolyard stage of “no – YOU are!”. Time for a thread closure :P

Sometimes discussing stuff with children requires going down to their level. They just cannot comprehend some stuff. You can explain and explain, but theyll just do this empty stare….with an occasional blink ;P

Ok we need to stop to feed him, let’s get back on the topic or else devs will have a reason to close this thread.

Erick Alastor.3917:

Ok we need to stop to feed him, let’s get back on the topic or else devs will have a reason to close this thread.

That is quite offensive “feed him”….

You know, this entire thread would never have existed had ArenaNet not introduced tier gear, and a grind to get it, however large or small. Why? Because long before, Mike O’Brien said grind should be about cosmetics, not stats, and so many, many people bought GW2 with that expectation.

I seem to recall an 11000+ post thread back in November full of people saying “don’t do it, people don’t want that, and you’ll be called a liar if you do.”

Yet here we have it.

Would it be too childish to say “we told you so”? Probably. I feel like doing it anyway, though.

Chuo.4238:

You know, this entire thread would never have existed had ArenaNet not introduced tier gear, and a grind to get it, however large or small. Why? Because long before, Mike O’Brien said grind should be about cosmetics, not stats, and so many, many people bought GW2 with that expectation.

I seem to recall an 11000+ post thread back in November full of people saying “don’t do it, people don’t want that, and you’ll be called a liar if you do.”

Yet here we have it.

Would it be too childish to say “we told you so”? Probably. I feel like doing it anyway, though.

Ofc with their logic that the forum doesn’t represent the whole gaming community.Why would they listen…

Cool tittle OP

moiraine.2753:

Cool tittle OP

Funny thing is i posted a thread titled grind wars 2 and i got infracted for being disrespectful.I guess adding holy to it makes it kinda polite.

Chuo.4238:

You know, this entire thread would never have existed had ArenaNet not introduced tier gear, and a grind to get it, however large or small. Why? Because long before, Mike O’Brien said grind should be about cosmetics, not stats, and so many, many people bought GW2 with that expectation.

I seem to recall an 11000+ post thread back in November full of people saying “don’t do it, people don’t want that, and you’ll be called a liar if you do.”

Yet here we have it.

Would it be too childish to say “we told you so”? Probably. I feel like doing it anyway, though.

Had “i told you so” moments with LOTRO/SWTOR.

I wish i havent had them though.

I still occasionally play those for short time, when i get bored, but thing is – i havent given them a dime since.

I honestly think they lost a large portion of the player base back in November with the announcement of Ascended tier. Those that came here based on that philosophy of horizontal progression didn’t all visit the forums to complain. What is left is probably more pro vertical progression than not. <— All just assumptions on my part of course.

I held on with hopes that the implementation wouldn’t kill off my playstyle. Now that it has put a stranglehold on that style I have to ask myself; what now?

I applaud those that enjoy this new direction. I wish I had the time to keep up with the pace. Unfortunately I don’t and the more I miss the easier it becomes to miss it.
Anet knows the metrics, crunches the numbers, and knows what people are doing consistently. Those are the voices that matter, the numbers.

Chuo.4238:

You know, this entire thread would never have existed had ArenaNet not introduced tier gear, and a grind to get it, however large or small. Why? Because long before, Mike O’Brien said grind should be about cosmetics, not stats, and so many, many people bought GW2 with that expectation.

I seem to recall an 11000+ post thread back in November full of people saying “don’t do it, people don’t want that, and you’ll be called a liar if you do.”

Yet here we have it.

Would it be too childish to say “we told you so”? Probably. I feel like doing it anyway, though.

EXACTLY. It doesn’t really matter if it’s a +1 stat or not, it’s the time gating and the ridiculous grind doing a particular set of events to death to be able to just craft one weapon for one character.

Back in November, it wasn’t as big a deal I think, because you could just buy the trinkets for one character, play another month, get them for another character and so on and maybe you’d get a ring from a fractal if you chose to do it above 10 (with a pretty good drop rate).

All in all, before last November and until now, the only thing you’d miss if you didn’t play GW2 is laurels, and just skins.

Now it’s crafting, and weapons, and skins. “Log in today or miss out, because prices are just going up and up!” or “Don’t miss making your crystal or brick today!”.

GW2 went from a game you truly felt like you could hop into and step away from without missing a beat, to something that you need to log into a grind in just to keep up, and once again, worse than before, those with the ingame funds to control the market win out.

Vayne.8563:

That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying no one was complaining that Anet “lied” about energy potions. No one used the word lie in reference to that. Anet changed their mind, but they agreed with it, so that change was okay.

First, they changed it long before they started selling the game to people. Yes, that matters. A LOT.

Second, they didn’t try and claim “We always meant it to be this way” or “You just misinterpreted what we said back then” after the change, like was being said after Ascended was added contrary to their PR.

Chuo.4238:

Khal Drogo.9631:

I think a lot of people arent really complaining about the ascended tier per se (albeit a few are concerned about a neverending treadmill) but the amount of grind required to obtain ONE weapon as opposed to getting a ring and accessory. Cannot imagine what has to be done for ascended armor.

I for one, am complaining that the gear even exists. This is my main issue with GW2, and why I quit playing. The amount of grind is a distant second place in my complaint department. Actually, it’d be third, after the endless AP grind, followed by poor Living Story and Personal Story quality.

I really can’t find a reason to play any more. What are my options?

1) grind gear
2) grind meaningless AP
3) do the same set of dungeons that have been in the game since launch.
4) play a poorly written living story, in a blind panic to get the achievements in time, before they go away.

Since Fractals, there have been no new dungeons. WvW is essentially the same zergfest it’s been since launch, and sPvP has had few meaningful improvements – it’s still the same old same old, at heart.

The few bits of really good content that ArenaNet have come up with since launch were temporary, and can’t be played any more.

So what’s my motivation to stick around? There isn’t. The only reason I still come to these forums is because I was a huge Guild Wars fan, and I keep hoping they’ll find a way to plug the leaks in the sinking ship that’s becoming GW2.

Brilliant post Chuo, this sums up my feelings for the game completely and why i basically stopped covering the game for work
I will be at the ANet developer conference next week at Eurogamer, but only because other staff are busy, or I’d go do something else rather than cover GW2…
I only play it casually now

I can’t believe we’re still talking about this. Obviously some people really like what I consider grindy content. Equally obviously some people really don’t.

It doesn’t matter what ANet may have promised or may have said, we can see what they delivered. We also know that whatever the non-grind people say, ANet believes a good grind is good for the game. So we can expect this kind of grind to continue.

It’s now just part of the game. Nothing anyone says will change it.

Smith.1826:

Lonesamurai.4852:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Lonesamurai.4852:

You’re right, it WAS grind… IF you didn’t play it smart

Like I’ve said three times now, ESPECIALLY with Nightfall, if you did the bounties while clearing the map and exploring for the map clearance, you cleared loads of birds at once, not to mention over numerous characters, even the 10k Sunspear faction was quick to get

Even this way, with multiple chars, people still preferred the lb/ss farm run because it was faster and more lucrative. Yes, it did not have to be a grind, but many perceived it as such. The same issue is happening here with ascended. It does not have to be a grind, but most perceive it as being so. And again, wholly optional. Unless you are doing high level fractals (and even then) exotics are still more then enough for all other content.

100% with you there, perception is a major factor

Likewise. I’m sure the journey for an Ascended weapon would probably a lot more appealing for someone newer to – or in love with! – the game. As for myself, I’ve already mentioned the position I’m in in a previous post: 57 weaponsmithing with zilch in the bank. I’m primarily a PvE player, I’ve already played through the dungeons, and I don’t see any appeal in repeating content. As such, that “journey” is going to be a heavily tiring task.

For people in the process of leveling, or starting new characters, yes, this is less of an issue. Ascended is something they can initially plan for in the growth of their character. However, I do understand your complaint. I have 2 of my characters at 80 and for all intents and purposes, geared for their needs. I have 3 more rapidly approaching being max. Ascended was not originally part of their ‘design’ because when I set them up it wasn’t an option. Ascended is now an additional tier of work, beyond the initial goals and desires were for those characters. Semi-annoyed that I have no idea what the armor will look like, so I can’t even determine if I need to horde the transmute crystals or not.

Still, not stressing over it though. Like you, I am primarily a PvE player, although I dabble in WvW just to kitten people off. Ascended has been the kick in the teeth I needed to work on leveling my crafting (1 per char). I mean, I gather all the mats during my typical play anyway (really bad habit, I gather everything in sight. Makes for some interesting side tracks) so I have the stuff (not nearly enough but its a start). I’m not going out of my way to ‘farm’ any of it, I still just gather at leisure when I play. I don’t typically do dungeons (which is why I’m still wearing yellows…), or jumping puzzles, and I don’t ride the champ train. But, I’m still not stressing over it. Eventually I’ll deck out each character in ascended….it’s a long term goal. I am in no rush to have it all done yesterday. I think if more people approach it from a similar perspective, they’d be less stressed and kittened off about it.

Vayne.8563:

Xcom.1926:

Vayne.8563:

No one seems to remember Eric Flannum pre launch telling us there would be stuff to grind for….just as there was plenty of stuff to grind for in Guild Wars 1.

Probably because ANet didn’t feature it somewhere in their official publications and advertising. I am sure he isn’t in the Manifesto.

Sure, he’s not. But what Colin was saying in the manifesto is pretty clearly not talking about GRIND, it’s talking about a specific type of grind.

Grind can mean more than one thing. The definitions of grind are:

1. Killing mobs to earn experience to level
2. Doing repetitive tasks to get higher level gear

When you look what Colin was saying, the whole paragraph…there’s no mention of gear at all. Nothing about that. He’s talking about combat and hes’ talking about “fun things to do”. How anyone can imagine he’s talking about gear grind there, when he’s obviously (to me anyway) using the original definition of grind, I don’t know.

I already settled this. Don’t you remember? He’s talking about the way combat looks. Here’s the indisputable proof:

When you look at the art in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s visually stunning. I’ve never seen anything like that before,’ and then when you play the combat in our game, you say ‘Wow that’s incredible I’ve never seen anything like that.’

We want to change the way people view combat.

The evidence lies in plain sight before you, yet you persist in persistently choosing to ignore it. And even if it wasn’t there and you didn’t persistently persist in choosing to ignore it, would there have been a difference in the laws of physics if Newton got bonked on the head by a Golden Noble instead of a Flower of Kent?

IMO opinion whether they meant that they were talking about a specific type of grind no long matters when almost everyone thought they meant grind in general.

If you combine different quotes you get a pretty clear picture that grinding was going to be for looks only.

Maybe that’s not what they meant, but it’s what they implied (or at the very least what any reasonable person should have known we inferred) and it’s what they let people believe. So, to me, either they a) said one thing, implied another, and didn’t correct the misconception (which any reasonable person would have known was out there) or b) changed their mind and have turned in a different direction.

Which is better? And really, what difference does it make? We are where we are. Does it really matter if someone said this wasn’t where we were going?

TooBz.3065:

Which is better? And really, what difference does it make? We are where we are. Does it really matter if someone said this wasn’t where we were going?

It makes all the difference in the world.

xephire.8324:

Vayne.8563:

xephire.8324:

Vayne.8563:

Algreg.3629:

I think we now reached the schoolyard stage of “no – YOU are!”. Time for a thread closure :P

I’m not actually calling anyone names or ignorant. People use such tactics when they run out of arguments. I’m against calling people names. It solves nothing. I simply point out when other people do it, because it weakens whatever arguments they might have had.

Says the guy who has called people names…….

If you can find where I’ve called people names, feel free to report the post. I’m sure I’ll get infracted for it if that’s the case.

I’ve done so and i’ve seen your post been removed.

I’ve never had a post removed for name calling. I’ve had posts removed for being argumentative, though. Nice try.

xephire.8324:

Vayne.8563:

Xcom.1926:

Oh also you skipped Ree saying “You are rescuing a village that will stay rescued”, missed that part too?

I am not holding devs to every word that would be silly, but I do hold them to honor the core fundamentals that they promised.

Did you miss the clarification published 3 days after the manifesto that was around for a year or more that explains Ree was talking about personal stories and Colin was talking about dynamic events?

They made that up so that it’ll defend their statements…….Lying through the first statement and then oh wait i want to clarify…………BS

I’d believe you if it wasn’t published 3 days after the manifesto came out to explain things.

JDGumby.7685:

Vayne.8563:

That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying no one was complaining that Anet “lied” about energy potions. No one used the word lie in reference to that. Anet changed their mind, but they agreed with it, so that change was okay.

First, they changed it long before they started selling the game to people. Yes, that matters. A LOT.

Second, they didn’t try and claim “We always meant it to be this way” or “You just misinterpreted what we said back then” after the change, like was being said after Ascended was added contrary to their PR.

Anet is a business that said a ton of things. People make these claims that Anet said something a couple of times during interviews, so those things are written in stone. They’ve said that Anet has made this some kind of major promise about the game.

Anet made statements of intention. They’ve promised nothing of the sort. When you look at the Guild Wars 2 webpage, what you see is stuff about dynamic events, stuff about personal story, stuff about pretty much everything but vertical progression. Furthermore, the web page has ALWAYS been that way. There’s been very very little talk of verticle progression and most of it was in response to fan questions in the first place.

You might consider this some kind of core promise that Anet did a 180 on, but I saw far more talk of other things that are still in the game.

Did Anet change directions. Oh yes, 100%. Anet changed directions.

But to say they made this big huge pledge about how it would be is simply wrong. The game changed directions. If you didn’t get your money’s worth out of your $60, at the time they changed directions, which was LAST NOVEMBER, you should have asked for a refund. Anet give plenty of people refunds because they changed direction back then.

Now we’re arguing about Anet changing direction, when we already had this argument ten months ago.

I’m not sure which is worse those people who think a statement of intent is a promise, or those people who knew ascended gear was coming, and continually bring up an argument I thought was long over.

Tachenon.5270:

Vayne.8563:

Xcom.1926:

Vayne.8563:

No one seems to remember Eric Flannum pre launch telling us there would be stuff to grind for….just as there was plenty of stuff to grind for in Guild Wars 1.

Probably because ANet didn’t feature it somewhere in their official publications and advertising. I am sure he isn’t in the Manifesto.

Sure, he’s not. But what Colin was saying in the manifesto is pretty clearly not talking about GRIND, it’s talking about a specific type of grind.

Grind can mean more than one thing. The definitions of grind are:

1. Killing mobs to earn experience to level
2. Doing repetitive tasks to get higher level gear

When you look what Colin was saying, the whole paragraph…there’s no mention of gear at all. Nothing about that. He’s talking about combat and hes’ talking about “fun things to do”. How anyone can imagine he’s talking about gear grind there, when he’s obviously (to me anyway) using the original definition of grind, I don’t know.

I already settled this. Don’t you remember? He’s talking about the way combat looks. Here’s the indisputable proof:

When you look at the art in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s visually stunning. I’ve never seen anything like that before,’ and then when you play the combat in our game, you say ‘Wow that’s incredible I’ve never seen anything like that.’

We want to change the way people view combat.

The evidence lies in plain sight before you, yet you persist in persistently choosing to ignore it. And even if it wasn’t there and you didn’t persistently persist in choosing to ignore it, would there have been a difference in the laws of physics if Newton got bonked on the head by a Golden Noble instead of a Flower of Kent?

So what else in that entire paragraph, beside the single word grind, has you believing that he’s talking about gear grind. Because I don’t see anything in that paragraph that mentions gear. Or vertical progression. All he talks about is going through this awful grind to get to the fun stuff.

We didn’t settle it. You settled it. I didn’t agree it was settled and there are others who agree with me as well. They posted in that thread too.

TooBz.3065:

IMO opinion whether they meant that they were talking about a specific type of grind no long matters when almost everyone thought they meant grind in general.

If you combine different quotes you get a pretty clear picture that grinding was going to be for looks only.

Maybe that’s not what they meant, but it’s what they implied (or at the very least what any reasonable person should have known we inferred) and it’s what they let people believe. So, to me, either they a) said one thing, implied another, and didn’t correct the misconception (which any reasonable person would have known was out there) or b) changed their mind and have turned in a different direction.

Which is better? And really, what difference does it make? We are where we are. Does it really matter if someone said this wasn’t where we were going?

Anet made a manifesto two years before the game launched and then provided, after that subsequent information which people seem to ignore.

No one said Anet didn’t change direction….at least I haven’t said it. But I don’t believe the manifesto was talking about gear grind (and I see no reason why anyone would believe it). In no English I know can that be construed to mean gear grind.

People don’t like gear grind, they seized on the word grind and decided that’s what it meant. I don’t buy it.

As for everything else, Anet didn’t have pages and pages on how there would be no vertical progression in this game. They had two or three quotes from interviews. They talked about other stuff, A LOT. Dynamic events, personal story, hell, even dye colors got an entire blog post.

Vertical progression didn’t.

I don’t know what’s more disappointing: ANet’s 180 regarding their design philosophy or the fact that players are unable to make their own fun in the world and “need” mindless grinding in order to feel a sense of “achievement”. How the hell is grinding for the next tier of gear fun? For people who like it, there are other people that get kitten ed off because now they feel like they have to get all of this ascended gear in order to complete in something like WvW. Sure, you don’t “need” it. That is, if you don’t like playing on an even playing field and enjoy getting stomped by people who like grinding more than you.

Cosmetic stuff I’m cool with because it’s entirely optional and I will readily admit that there are a few sets I would be willingly to spend the time to get them. But that doesn’t give me a numerical advantage over other players…

Vayne.8563:

TooBz.3065:

IMO opinion whether they meant that they were talking about a specific type of grind no long matters when almost everyone thought they meant grind in general.

If you combine different quotes you get a pretty clear picture that grinding was going to be for looks only.

Maybe that’s not what they meant, but it’s what they implied (or at the very least what any reasonable person should have known we inferred) and it’s what they let people believe. So, to me, either they a) said one thing, implied another, and didn’t correct the misconception (which any reasonable person would have known was out there) or b) changed their mind and have turned in a different direction.

Which is better? And really, what difference does it make? We are where we are. Does it really matter if someone said this wasn’t where we were going?

Anet made a manifesto two years before the game launched and then provided, after that subsequent information which people seem to ignore.

No one said Anet didn’t change direction….at least I haven’t said it. But I don’t believe the manifesto was talking about gear grind (and I see no reason why anyone would believe it). In no English I know can that be construed to mean gear grind.

People don’t like gear grind, they seized on the word grind and decided that’s what it meant. I don’t buy it.

As for everything else, Anet didn’t have pages and pages on how there would be no vertical progression in this game. They had two or three quotes from interviews. They talked about other stuff, A LOT. Dynamic events, personal story, hell, even dye colors got an entire blog post.

Vertical progression didn’t.

Sorry, I still don’t think the difference matters. They knew (or should have known) that people thought they meant no gear grind. I think it’s better if they intended for grinding to be for looks, realized it wasn’t working, and adjusted their strategy.

The fact that there was no clarification on vertical progression supports my point as much as it does yours. They described dynamic events, the personal story, and dye colors, but never discussed vertical progression. Didn’t say they would have it, didn’t say they wouldn’t.

I think that, for a sequel, the default position is that things are going to be the same as the predecessor. For example, even if the trailers didn’t show car chases, you could safely assume that Fast and the Furious 7 would include a lot of cars. If this game was named WoW2 then people should expect vertical progression, but this game is named GW2. Which, people have said, didn’t really have vertical progression after max level.

And I still don’t see why it matters (but I enjoy the debate). Although some people seem to think it does. We have the game we have.

TooBz.3065:

Vayne.8563:

TooBz.3065:

IMO opinion whether they meant that they were talking about a specific type of grind no long matters when almost everyone thought they meant grind in general.

If you combine different quotes you get a pretty clear picture that grinding was going to be for looks only.

Maybe that’s not what they meant, but it’s what they implied (or at the very least what any reasonable person should have known we inferred) and it’s what they let people believe. So, to me, either they a) said one thing, implied another, and didn’t correct the misconception (which any reasonable person would have known was out there) or b) changed their mind and have turned in a different direction.

Which is better? And really, what difference does it make? We are where we are. Does it really matter if someone said this wasn’t where we were going?

Anet made a manifesto two years before the game launched and then provided, after that subsequent information which people seem to ignore.

No one said Anet didn’t change direction….at least I haven’t said it. But I don’t believe the manifesto was talking about gear grind (and I see no reason why anyone would believe it). In no English I know can that be construed to mean gear grind.

People don’t like gear grind, they seized on the word grind and decided that’s what it meant. I don’t buy it.

As for everything else, Anet didn’t have pages and pages on how there would be no vertical progression in this game. They had two or three quotes from interviews. They talked about other stuff, A LOT. Dynamic events, personal story, hell, even dye colors got an entire blog post.

Vertical progression didn’t.

Sorry, I still don’t think the difference matters. They knew (or should have known) that people thought they meant no gear grind. I think it’s better if they intended for grinding to be for looks, realized it wasn’t working, and adjusted their strategy.

The fact that there was no clarification on vertical progression supports my point as much as it does yours. They described dynamic events, the personal story, and dye colors, but never discussed vertical progression. Didn’t say they would have it, didn’t say they wouldn’t.

I think that, for a sequel, the default position is that things are going to be the same as the predecessor. For example, even if the trailers didn’t show car chases, you could safely assume that Fast and the Furious 7 would include a lot of cars. If this game was named WoW2 then people should expect vertical progression, but this game is named GW2. Which, people have said, didn’t really have vertical progression after max level.

And I still don’t see why it matters (but I enjoy the debate). Although some people seem to think it does. We have the game we have.

It matters because people feel betrayed…and I understand WHY people feel betrayed.

I’m just not one of those people.

Vayne.8563:

Tachenon.5270:

Vayne.8563:

Xcom.1926:

Vayne.8563:

No one seems to remember Eric Flannum pre launch telling us there would be stuff to grind for….just as there was plenty of stuff to grind for in Guild Wars 1.

Probably because ANet didn’t feature it somewhere in their official publications and advertising. I am sure he isn’t in the Manifesto.

Sure, he’s not. But what Colin was saying in the manifesto is pretty clearly not talking about GRIND, it’s talking about a specific type of grind.

Grind can mean more than one thing. The definitions of grind are:

1. Killing mobs to earn experience to level
2. Doing repetitive tasks to get higher level gear

When you look what Colin was saying, the whole paragraph…there’s no mention of gear at all. Nothing about that. He’s talking about combat and hes’ talking about “fun things to do”. How anyone can imagine he’s talking about gear grind there, when he’s obviously (to me anyway) using the original definition of grind, I don’t know.

I already settled this. Don’t you remember? He’s talking about the way combat looks. Here’s the indisputable proof:

When you look at the art in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s visually stunning. I’ve never seen anything like that before,’ and then when you play the combat in our game, you say ‘Wow that’s incredible I’ve never seen anything like that.’

We want to change the way people view combat.

The evidence lies in plain sight before you, yet you persist in persistently choosing to ignore it. And even if it wasn’t there and you didn’t persistently persist in choosing to ignore it, would there have been a difference in the laws of physics if Newton got bonked on the head by a Golden Noble instead of a Flower of Kent?

So what else in that entire paragraph, beside the single word grind, has you believing that he’s talking about gear grind. Because I don’t see anything in that paragraph that mentions gear. Or vertical progression. All he talks about is going through this awful grind to get to the fun stuff.

We didn’t settle it. You settled it. I didn’t agree it was settled and there are others who agree with me as well. They posted in that thread too.

You may disagree with Newton, too;
But gravity still has a hold on you.

The simple fact is that GW2 will be “that game” people hear about but don’t play. This could have been a WoW killer…

I just wanted to love this game so much…

/sadface

WoW and GW2 were supposed to be two different kinds of games, but it looks like the GW2 devs are trying to make it more like WoW, which is a shame. People that want vertical progression and grinding should go play WoW or Final Fantasy 14 online and leave the rest of us alone so we can enjoy this game.

I’ll assume that was sarcasm.

The question stands. Why do people want to make this game into something it isn’t, when there are plenty of other games out there that will meet their grinding and noob-stomping needs?

Dark Catalyst.1028:

I’ll assume that was sarcasm.

The question stands. Why do people want to make this game into something it isn’t, when there are plenty of other games out there that will meet their grinding and noob-stomping needs?

No its not sarcasm………..I do hate grinding

I’m new and judging by all the negative comments I’m seeing here about their new Ascended Weapons content this is basically the worst game ever? I can’t even use a Rare weapon yet but I’m getting there!