Guild Wars 2

jwaz.1908:

Vayne.8563:

kokiman.2364:

Dedicated Players want better gear —> dedicated players play the game frequently --> some “content” is timegated

I really don’t see the problem.

I’m a dedicated player and I have no problem with time gating. It gives those who can’t devote their lives to the game a chance to stay current.

Giving more casual players a chance to catch up is perfectly fine, but having such a copious amounts of daily/time-gated content is very unhealthy for the longevity of GW2 on the whole. There’s also the problem that all the new content is very trivial and unrepeatable.

I don’t think there’s that much evidence that time gated stuff is unhealthy for the longevity of a game. If anything, I think the opposite.

Let’s take an extreme casual like me, with one main which is the only character that needs gear.

20 fotm12 runs
2 months of dailies
4 weeks of guild missions
That’s all. Fully ascended character.

I’m completely done with all the time gates. I simply don’t need anything from these anymore but they did gave me a fun experience at the time. Anything I do now just goes to alts. But at no point do I feel forced to do these dailies anymore.

Not only that, but other people can’t spoil my fun because they do the same thing 10000 times to get better gear than me. When it comes down to BiS, we’re all on even footing.

Vayne.8563:

Galtrix.7369:

Mujen.5287:

GW2 is a grind? I played Aion for almost 3 years, I will show you grind.

And yet Aion is still more fun than this.

Subjective. Aion sucked for a whole lot of people. If Aion was more fun than this, more people would currently be playing Aion than this…and that’s not the case as far as I can tell.

Your comment is also subjective. What is a whole lot of people? Do you have numbers to quantify this?
What numbers do you have to support the player numbers of each game as it is?

That’s right. You don’t have numbers.

I can tell you that in the financial reports, Aion is not far behind in sales compared to GW2 this year, but even that doesn’t tell you anything about the number of players.

But Aion is still getting big content updates… 4.0 being around the corner for example. Again no evidence of player numbers but one could argue easily that Aion is still alive and well and not doing as poorly as you seem to suggest.

Certainly you must admit your comments here are also very subjective.

Is it not much fairer to say that just like beauty, fun is in the eye of the beholder? Fun is not a static concept that is the same for everyone.

So if one person thinks Aion is more fun, they are right. If another thinks GW2 is more fun, they are also right…because opinions are always subjective.

marnick.4305:

When it comes down to BiS, we’re all on even footing.

And that’s too bad. Instead of dull and easy activities with time gated rewards, BiS gear should be available from skill-based progression and high risk-high reward content.

A healthy MMO needs both casual and hardcore players. The latter don’t have much to do here.

Astral Projections.7320:

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Yes, people assume grind means gear grind, but to older MMOers, that’s not the original definition

Which older MMOers ? You seem to be claiming to speak for a lot of people here. I am an older MMOer and yet what you say is off target for me.

Vayne.8563:

And there was vertical progression in this game from day one (and Anet has said that ascended gear was always supposed to be in the game).

When someone opts to say something like that after the fact rather than before, when they supposedly had it as their intention all along, it makes the statement seem suspect. This is particularly the case when those making the statement have made other statements that have since been shown to be untrue.

Vayne.8563:

I know there are a lot of people who want no vertical progression and expected that to be in the game. But that still has nothing to do with the manifesto.

Except that the manifesto told us that there would not be gear progression in GW2.

Vayne.8563:

If the poster said that I didn’t expect vertical progression, but that’s what I got…I’d have a lot less problem with that. My problem is people blaming that belief on the manifesto.

Except that the manifesto told us that there would not be gear progression in GW2.

Grind meant to kill things to level. That’s what it traditionally meant. Gear grind came much later. Most of the early MMOs were grind fests, not talking about gear but talking about leveling.

As I’ve pointed out, even if you look up grind in Wikipedia, it gives that definition first. Sure grind has come to mean a whole lot of other things but NONE of that is mentioned or referred to in the manifesto. There’s a whole thread about it, several in fact.

People can only repeat over and over again that there’s a line that says “We dont’ want people to grind in Guild Wars 2.” And all those people ignore two lines before that when Colin says precisely what grind he’s referring to. In most games there’s this “annoying grind” that you have to get through to get to the fun stuff.

How anyone can say that talks about vertical progression is beyond me.

And here’s the whole quote again.

The “no grind” comment refers to combat only. People take the no grind to refer to the game as a whole. But if you read his statement, that’s not what he said.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/ArenaNet's_MMO_Manifesto_trailer

Colin Johanson: “When you look at the art in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s visually stunning. I’ve never seen anything like that before,’ and then when you play the combat in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s incredible. I’ve never seen anything like that.’ In most games, you go out, and you have really fun tasks, occasionally, that you get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. ‘I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again.’ That’s great. We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun. We want to change the way that people view combat.”

The key phrase here, right after saying that they don’t want people to grind is “We want to change the way that people view combat”.

He is not talking about grind in any other part of the game. He did not say the game would not have grind, only that you wouldn’t have to grind mobs to level.

I am sorry to say, you are all wrong.

Obviously, he is talking about the aesthetics of combat – how the combat in GW2 looks! He says it clearly, in two whole sentences! It’s so obvious I simply don’t understand how anyone can miss it; it’s like falling off a log and somehow missing the ground. But I’ll isolate the defining statements for everyone, and then we can all rest easy because any and all doubts will have been replaced with the assuredness of pure certainty.

Here goes!

“When you look at the art in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s visually stunning. I’ve never seen anything like that before,’ and then when you play the combat in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s incredible. I’ve never seen anything like that.’"

See? Obvious! Now for the next one, the crowning glory, as it were:

“We want to change the way that people view combat.”

So, let’s have no more arguments! It’s all been settled. It’s about aesthetics.

And you’re welcome.

Tachenon.5270:

I am sorry to say, you are all wrong.

Obviously, he is talking about the aesthetics of combat – how the combat in GW2 looks! He says it clearly, in two whole sentences! It’s so obvious I simply don’t understand how anyone can miss it; it’s like falling off a log and somehow missing the ground. But I’ll isolate the defining statements for everyone, and then we can all rest easy because any and all doubts will have been replaced with the assuredness of pure certainty.

Here goes!

“When you look at the art in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s visually stunning. I’ve never seen anything like that before,’ and then when you play the combat in our game, you say ‘Wow, that’s incredible. I’ve never seen anything like that.’"

See? Obvious! Now for the next one, the crowning glory, as it were:

“We want to change the way that people view combat.”

So, let’s have no more arguments! It’s all been settled. It’s about aesthetics.

And you’re welcome.

That just changes the discussion….combat in GW2 makes me not go “wow, that’s visually stunning” but “holy kitten, who blew up ten dozen rainbows on my screen!??!”

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

Galtrix.7369:

Mujen.5287:

GW2 is a grind? I played Aion for almost 3 years, I will show you grind.

And yet Aion is still more fun than this.

Subjective. Aion sucked for a whole lot of people. If Aion was more fun than this, more people would currently be playing Aion than this…and that’s not the case as far as I can tell.

Your comment is also subjective. What is a whole lot of people? Do you have numbers to quantify this?
What numbers do you have to support the player numbers of each game as it is?

That’s right. You don’t have numbers.

I can tell you that in the financial reports, Aion is not far behind in sales compared to GW2 this year, but even that doesn’t tell you anything about the number of players.

But Aion is still getting big content updates… 4.0 being around the corner for example. Again no evidence of player numbers but one could argue easily that Aion is still alive and well and not doing as poorly as you seem to suggest.

Certainly you must admit your comments here are also very subjective.

Is it not much fairer to say that just like beauty, fun is in the eye of the beholder? Fun is not a static concept that is the same for everyone.

So if one person thinks Aion is more fun, they are right. If another thinks GW2 is more fun, they are also right…because opinions are always subjective.

I don’t need numbers to say a whole lot of people. If 1000 people hated it, it’s a whole lot of people. A number like that can be used, because it’s going to be true. I’m sure if you polled everyone who ever played it a reasonable percentage of people wouldn’t have liked it, including the people who left it because you ran out of quests and had to grind when it first game out. There was a mass exodus from the game at around that time, presumably because people didn’t like it.

A whole lot of people don’t like ANY game. So you can say it. It’s really that simple.

Would really like to see some more quested stuff myself. Not themepark like at all, but some standard quests thrown in here and there would be a nice change of pace. Something really cool looking, for example, could be a long quest chain that might take days to finish. Would love something like that to make it into the game once in awhile. Make it character bound also for the rewards so alts have a reason to do it too. I do think the farming thing is a little on the lame side, but when there is nothing else to do, it’s a decent distraction I guess.

Konrad.9587:

marnick.4305:

When it comes down to BiS, we’re all on even footing.

And that’s too bad. Instead of dull and easy activities with time gated rewards, BiS gear should be available from skill-based progression and high risk-high reward content.

A healthy MMO needs both casual and hardcore players. The latter don’t have much to do here.

I disagree that BiS should only be available to the best players, because it’s a dumb system that benefits few and screws over a lot. Don’t get me wrong, I would most likely be one of the benefited few, but I still think it’s a bad system.

What we need is a system where BiS is relatively easily available to everyone, but the highest rewards should only be available to the best players that take the high risk – high reward route.

I’ve brought up this example countless times, and I’m gonna keep doing it, but DoA in GW1 was an amazing risk vs reward dungeon. The best players in the game could clear it in <30 minutes (casually), but most casuals were 30-35 mins. This took a lot of team coordination and skilled players. Bad guilds usually took 50mins-1h+ to do the same area with the same team setup we used, but they just lacked the skill to do it as fast.

It was (in PvE) one of the highest rewarding activity you could find; in game it was only outdone by high-end GvG, which took more skill, more dedication and as such was more rewarding.

The area wasn’t inaccessible to PUGs, there was a teambuild that could clear the area as well, but only in Normal Mode (whereas we cleared it in Hard Mode) and it took them about 3-4 times as long to do it, for half the reward. But their team build took no skill, it was very comparable to the current Guardian Staff 1 tag farm, only with 2 support characters in the backline, and people spamming their skills on cooldown, with little to no coordination.

And you know what? The area was an incentive to a lot of players to increase their skill. They wanted to be in the best guilds in the game, because they made the most money. To do so, they had to increase their skill, and become better players. People actually wanted to be good at the game. In GW2, when a boss is “too hard”, all people do it whine until Anet nerfs it to the ground (if I had a euro for every TAFU thread I’ve seen..). The average player in this game is absolute trash, because they’re being catered too much, and there is no reason to try challenging content, because mindless bullkitten like CoF p1 pre patch and CS farm is showering them with money anyway.

I don’t feel like the game is a chore, or that I am working without pay, when I am playing. Of course, I am much more laid back about my playing now than when I played GW1. The time gated content can be a pain on weekdays, but eventually I’ll achieve my goals. Maybe it takes me a day longer because I missed a day, or maybe I don’t finish it at all (such as with some of the LS tasks) and that’s ok. I tried, and that’s good enough for me.

I don’t have to have everything in the game. I horded like that in GW1; had so many mule characters it makes me queasy to think about it. I don’t need to do it here. There really is no benefit to hanging onto crap I probably will never use, as turned out to be the case in the game’s predecessor. I don’t need every shiny just to say I have it.

I don’t need everything ‘right now!’ It leaves me nothing to work on or work towards to have everything just given to me. If I want one of the time limited skins, I work for it. If I don’t get it, so be it. I’m bummed, sure, but maybe I’ll like the next one better and succeed in getting one of those. Who knows. But it gives me something to strive for.

As for dailies, meh, if I get it done then so be it, otherwise I don’t really care. I don’t go out of my way generally for dailies and monthlies. The last week I’ve successfully completed dailies every day, but I was playing with my husband, just jumping around doing random stuff on various character sets. Then ‘ding’ oh look the daily is done just from playing (which I think is how it should be) without having to focus on it. But, like I said, if I don’t complete it, I don’t worry about it. I don’t let it dictate my play just because its there.

I think the game is only a chore if you let it become one.

Vayne.8563:

I don’t need numbers to say a whole lot of people. If 1000 people hated it, it’s a whole lot of people. A number like that can be used, because it’s going to be true. I’m sure if you polled everyone who ever played it a reasonable percentage of people wouldn’t have liked it, including the people who left it because you ran out of quests and had to grind when it first game out. There was a mass exodus from the game at around that time, presumably because people didn’t like it.

A whole lot of people don’t like ANY game. So you can say it. It’s really that simple.

But it’s still subjective.

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

I don’t need numbers to say a whole lot of people. If 1000 people hated it, it’s a whole lot of people. A number like that can be used, because it’s going to be true. I’m sure if you polled everyone who ever played it a reasonable percentage of people wouldn’t have liked it, including the people who left it because you ran out of quests and had to grind when it first game out. There was a mass exodus from the game at around that time, presumably because people didn’t like it.

A whole lot of people don’t like ANY game. So you can say it. It’s really that simple.

But it’s still subjective.

Whether people like or don’t like a game is subjective. But I believe it’s a fact that a whole lot of people didn’t like Aion. A whole lot of people also don’t like WoW or Guild Wars 2.

While someone’s opinion of a game is subjective, the fact that a whole lot of people don’t like any game is probably more factual than opinion.

And if you look at the original post I was replying to, which was completely subjective, I don’t really see your objection here.

jwaz.1908:

To summarize, the piling up ‘daily’ and time-gated content is just a shallow attempt to keep people coming back, and to restrict those that play many hours a day, causing GW2 to feel like a chore.

- Hah! You may be right it’s shallow, but does it work? Would you play the game if there was no achievements, rewards or gear grind? You would be just given your weapon and you could go whack endlessly respawning monsters with it. How long would you play?

I think it’s rather impressive how these companies manage to hold on to millions of players with cost-effective methods.

I’m not saying you don’t have a point, and if anything i feel like these ‘Daily’ achievements are designed to take up 2 days imo – some of us don’t have the time.

However, you don’t HAVE to do the daily’s to enjoy the game.

The only other game I plan on playing is ArcheAge when it’s localized for the west. Guess what? It’s a Korean grind fest MMO. I don’t mind that they’re adding things that exclude casuals, because at launch we really didn’t have anything that included hardcores.

I just want to chime in and say:

I hate grinding dailies for laurels with a passion. 3 months I’ve spent luring skelks into rivers for underwater kills or slaying moas and deer for kill variety. kitten that kitten.

Zenith.6403:

Would you play the game if there was no achievements, rewards or gear grind?

Don’t need achievements, don’t need gear grind, the only rewards I’d particularly want would be the occasional armor and/or weapon drops along with stuff I could use for crafting armor and/or weapons and stuff I could sell outright to a vendor for some type of currency with which I could purchase armor and/or weapons. Once my characters were at the max level and had max level gear, mass quantities of QUESTS to do and ZONES to explore would keep me happy for a long time, provided more of these were added at regular intervals.

Konrad.9587:

marnick.4305:

When it comes down to BiS, we’re all on even footing.

And that’s too bad. Instead of dull and easy activities with time gated rewards, BiS gear should be available from skill-based progression and high risk-high reward content.

A healthy MMO needs both casual and hardcore players. The latter don’t have much to do here.

A healthy MMO needs a large playerbase. Hardcore players are a small minority. Large playerbase minus the 2% hardcore people is still large. I’d say cater to the casuals. You’ll keep a larger active playerbase.

Not only that, but casuals usually have more money to waste. People tend to cherish their one hobby more after a long work day with paid extra hours (which is the primary cause for casual gaming styles). The people that just as well dump a thousand euros into a racebike they use once a month. I’d say cater too the casuals, you’ll have a playerbase with more money to spend.

WARNING: I don’t want to put every hard core player in the same bucket, but the fact is that hardcore play is not compatible with most well paid jobs.

marnick.4305:

A healthy MMO needs a large playerbase. Hardcore players are a small minority. Large playerbase minus the 2% hardcore people is still large. I’d say cater to the casuals. You’ll keep a larger active playerbase.

The biggest active and organized community of players that was left over in GW1 after 2010 was the ‘hardcore’ Speedclear community. There were a metric f***ton of wannabe speedclear guilds as well, in addition to the actually good ones. It was one of the aspects of the game that died out last, by late 2011 it was really noticeable and by early 2012 it had gotten pretty bad.

So no, the ‘casuals’ aren’t the ones that stay active the longest, it’s the ‘hardcores’.

Not to mention, many people I play with would qualify in the communities’ eyes as ‘hardcore’ and have jobs, or family or study at university etc. Just like the casuals have jobs, family, or study at university. Both sides spend money on the game, until you have any statistics that ‘casuals’ spend more, your argument holds no water and is pure speculation.

Vayne.8563:

Whether people like or don’t like a game is subjective. But I believe it’s a fact that a whole lot of people didn’t like Aion. A whole lot of people also don’t like WoW or Guild Wars 2.

While someone’s opinion of a game is subjective, the fact that a whole lot of people don’t like any game is probably more factual than opinion.

And if you look at the original post I was replying to, which was completely subjective, I don’t really see your objection here.

It’s simple…you accuse others of being subjective and then you turn around and do the same thing. Now you claim there’s nothing wrong with being subjective. So why accuse the other guy about it first if you’re gonna turn around and do the same?

And what exactly was your point with this comment because I can also say that a whole lot of people do like Aion and that would be right to, but it’s meaningless….so yeh, were you just typing for the sake of typing or was there an actual point there?

“TL:DR To summarize, the piling up ‘daily’ and time-gated content is just a shallow attempt to keep people coming back, and to restrict those that play many hours a day, causing GW2 to feel like a chore.”

I’m not sure I would call their philosophy “flawed”, but there are definitely things I dislike about the game and feel are a “chore” as well.

I am a casual player. I do not play every day and when I do play it’s usually not for more than a few hours at a time. I’m obviously NOT Anets target player, but I also don’t feel like they specifically exclude me either.

I mostly enjoy open world PvE and I do dabble in WvW a few times a week. I enjoy playing all of the hearts, vistas, skill challenges and DE’s. I don’t care for dungeons nor jumping puzzles, but I’m not “upset” that they are in the game.

Although I’m glad Daily/Monthly tasks are available, I don’t particularly enjoy feeling the need to “plan my adventuring” around them to achieve them each time I play.. I much preferred the Nicholas the Traveler from GW1 (collect 10 items for him and receive your reward).

Also, I’m glad that Anet has these additions to the living story. However, instead of every 2 weeks, I would prefer more along the lines of 6 weeks as this would allow me to casually meet all of the achievements while still giving me time to play the areas I like.

I don’t care for the diminishing returns/account max for boss chests either as I feel if someone wants to play an area 24/7, then they should be able to.

Obviously those that play many hours a day would disagree with my style of play and some of “my” suggestions of preferences.

Anyway, I feel Anet is doing the best they can to appease a majority of their player base. They can’t possibly make us all happy. As their player base changes I’m sure Anet will also continue to evolve the game to appease them as well.

It’s been a year and I still enjoy playing the game. Hopefully this will continue for a few more years.

Bright.9160:

-snip-

I think you’re right. But what else might be a proper reward for the best players taking high risk, except BiS gear?

marnick.4305:

-snip-

By “hardcore” players I didn’t mean the real hardcores – but the folks that play at least like 15-18 hours/week, log in almost daily and have at least a decent level of skill. I wish there was a better name to describe and distinguish them from those who play casually, both in terms of time and self-improvement.

All MMOs need dedicated players. They push the demand for new content, they discover bugs and exploits quickly, they form loyal, stable and reliable core of the playerbase. There’s more of them than just a mere 2% (20-30% I’d say) and they throw their money into the game as well.

Konrad.9587:

Bright.9160:

-snip-

I think you’re right. But what else might be a proper reward for the best players taking high risk, except BiS gear?

Like in GW1, profit. Reward. Nice skins that have some bragging rights etc.

I’ll add in my own opinion about this, as a player of GW1 (prophecies, factions, nightfall and eye of the north) and a “since headstart” veteran of GW2.

Personally I feel arenanet has laid the stress for their game on loot and rewards waaaaaaaaay too much. In guild wars 1 the biggest part of your time went to completing the story. In guild wars 1 the story was in fact the main occupation.
It was always interesting, incredibly challenging (man how many times I have failed certain missions). For those who liked even harder content there was the hard mode.
In guild wars 1 I constantly wanted to complete more and more story missions, wanting to know “what came after” and always being amazed and pleased with the results of my deeds.

Completing the story granted you most of your equipment aswell, enough for you to succeed in the story. The PvP didn’t require you to use your own gear, but allowed you special PvP gear, with unlockable skills and runes allowed through skill points and allegiance tokens.

In guild wars 2… all of this has dissapeared. The game lacks a main “stress”, because the story is incredibly dull, stereotype and not challenging at all. Contrary to it’s predecessor, GW2 also forces the players into farming and grinding. Why? Because farming and grinding proves the only way to gather “gold”, a currency that is needed throughout the whole game for virtually everything. Everything is based on having the best gear and the only end-game exists in gathering “achievements”, that mean nothing because they don’t impact the game and skins, a cheap idea on Anets part to garantee that players keep busy farming gold for them.

On top of that, I wouldn’t have a problem with a “gold-based” game, if they balanced the rewards. Instead of balance we get zergs killing champions in PvE and killing players in WvW with 50-100 people and they get better rewards with their pointless grinding than an explorer who delves into the deep or someone who likes to do jumping, or someone who likes to do PvP in a non-zerg way.

In that way… you get forced to farm and grind, and thus “work” instead of play. And the only goal of this “job” is farming money to get skins allowing you to say “I rock”, while the gold-farming in itself isn’t fun and doesn’t contribute to gaming.

I would like to add: this is not just some QQ from a newbie who isn’t able to afford gear or skins. I have leveled 8 level 80s in my gw2 time and didn’t have a problem to get my gear/skins, but only after farming cof days on end. I believe that isn’t the way a game should be, and consequently have quit for over a week now, since the reveal of yet another grind-paradise.

What Anet needs – and this goes for WoW too. Is more difficulty gated content. Unfortunately I think to do this reasonably well they need to strengthen their trinity (even if it is control, support, damage) and they seem loathe to do this.

Time gated content or dallies is too boring. It doesn’t matter that players do these activities – they still build up long term hate by doing so and quit the game – telling no one to come back.

The only decent way to have some difficulty gated content in the game is via some kind of PvP tournament/raiding/tough 5 mans. And to make these more accessible (at least the PvE part) you want stronger class roles so that people learn who is playing well and badly in their group..

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

Whether people like or don’t like a game is subjective. But I believe it’s a fact that a whole lot of people didn’t like Aion. A whole lot of people also don’t like WoW or Guild Wars 2.

While someone’s opinion of a game is subjective, the fact that a whole lot of people don’t like any game is probably more factual than opinion.

And if you look at the original post I was replying to, which was completely subjective, I don’t really see your objection here.

It’s simple…you accuse others of being subjective and then you turn around and do the same thing. Now you claim there’s nothing wrong with being subjective. So why accuse the other guy about it first if you’re gonna turn around and do the same?

And what exactly was your point with this comment because I can also say that a whole lot of people do like Aion and that would be right to, but it’s meaningless….so yeh, were you just typing for the sake of typing or was there an actual point there?

Sorry, but I’m not being subjective when I say lots of people didn’t like Aion. That’s not subjective. Whether the game is good or not isn’t what I spoke about. You like to pick on me…why don’t you pick on the subjective guy I was first responding to.

It’s like you’re not even reading what I’m saying, so I’ll try again.

Example one…Aion is a bad game.

That’s opinion.

Example two… A whole lot of people thought Aion was a bad game.

I’m not saying it’s a fact, but it’s got a REALLY high probability of being a fact. Here’s another fact for you.

I didn’t personally mind Aion at all.

I must be one of the few that actually like the dailies. For me I work a lot and don’t have a ton of time to play. Most the time I can get home and work on some stuff and knock out a lot of my daily achievements. By the time i’m done with most of those it’s near time for me to get off for the night. It’s a perfect amount of content and stuff to do. But also if i’m not in the mood, hey guess what i can completely bypass the daily too, hell most times i’ll end up getting it anyways by doing other stuff. It doesn’t feel like a chore at all, i don’t understand why people say it is. If you are in a position where it feels like a chore or grind or whatever it might be time to take a break from the game, cause it sounds like you might be getting burned out on it

I agree with there being too much daily stuff. The game features more dailies than even WoW, which is sub based and known for dailies being part of endgame.

Bright.9160:

Konrad.9587:

marnick.4305:

When it comes down to BiS, we’re all on even footing.

And that’s too bad. Instead of dull and easy activities with time gated rewards, BiS gear should be available from skill-based progression and high risk-high reward content.

A healthy MMO needs both casual and hardcore players. The latter don’t have much to do here.

I disagree that BiS should only be available to the best players, because it’s a dumb system that benefits few and screws over a lot. Don’t get me wrong, I would most likely be one of the benefited few, but I still think it’s a bad system.

What we need is a system where BiS is relatively easily available to everyone, but the highest rewards should only be available to the best players that take the high risk – high reward route.

I’ve brought up this example countless times, and I’m gonna keep doing it, but DoA in GW1 was an amazing risk vs reward dungeon. The best players in the game could clear it in <30 minutes (casually), but most casuals were 30-35 mins. This took a lot of team coordination and skilled players. Bad guilds usually took 50mins-1h+ to do the same area with the same team setup we used, but they just lacked the skill to do it as fast.

It was (in PvE) one of the highest rewarding activity you could find; in game it was only outdone by high-end GvG, which took more skill, more dedication and as such was more rewarding.

The area wasn’t inaccessible to PUGs, there was a teambuild that could clear the area as well, but only in Normal Mode (whereas we cleared it in Hard Mode) and it took them about 3-4 times as long to do it, for half the reward. But their team build took no skill, it was very comparable to the current Guardian Staff 1 tag farm, only with 2 support characters in the backline, and people spamming their skills on cooldown, with little to no coordination.

And you know what? The area was an incentive to a lot of players to increase their skill. They wanted to be in the best guilds in the game, because they made the most money. To do so, they had to increase their skill, and become better players. People actually wanted to be good at the game. In GW2, when a boss is “too hard”, all people do it whine until Anet nerfs it to the ground (if I had a euro for every TAFU thread I’ve seen..). The average player in this game is absolute trash, because they’re being catered too much, and there is no reason to try challenging content, because mindless bullkitten like CoF p1 pre patch and CS farm is showering them with money anyway.

As I read, I was nodding my head — until I got to the slam in the last paragraph. My take is that the average player is not posting on the forums. Some guilds are full of people who would not be welcome in your dungeon runs, but who are trying to learn the game, trying to get better, and who never complain on the forums. Face it, some players are complainers, but the ones clamoring for dungeon nerfs may be a group similar in size — or smaller — than the ones asking for more challenge. Just as it’s a mistake for posters to think that those who agree with them are a majority, it’s also a mistake to think that those who on the “other side” represent a majority demographic. For all we know, the dungeon nerf complainers may be mostly in the bottom 10%, which is decidedly not average.

tl:dr — you don’t have to be average to feel entitled

Vayne.8563:

Sorry, but I’m not being subjective when I say lots of people didn’t like Aion. That’s not subjective. Whether the game is good or not isn’t what I spoke about. You like to pick on me…why don’t you pick on the subjective guy I was first responding to.

It’s like you’re not even reading what I’m saying, so I’ll try again.

Example one…Aion is a bad game.

That’s opinion.

Example two… A whole lot of people thought Aion was a bad game.

I’m not saying it’s a fact, but it’s got a REALLY high probability of being a fact. Here’s another fact for you.

I didn’t personally mind Aion at all.

A whole lot is subjective. It means different things to different people. That’s why it’s subjective. What is a whole lot? 10k people, 50k people, 100k people, 2 million people? That’s different for everybody, hence subjective.

The point is though, what are you trying to say with “a whole lot of people didn’t like Aion”? What is that supposed to bring to the table? Since you can say that of any game that was ever made known to man, it’s a meaningless point. It’s just a generality that people use to imply something without actually saying it.

So either you had no point with it or you were implying something with it, which you probably can’t substantiate. But hey, at least you can claim deniability right?

Subject here is that there are people who find GW2’s philosophy flawed and those who don’t. Lots of people on both sides of that if you like. What’s more interesting is why.

So let’s bring it back to why people do or do not care for the GW2 approach.

My main point is that they present a constant stream of snacks. I prefer full meals, something more substantial that I can take my time in doing. I don’t like the snacks because they are often fleeting and gone before you know it. Then it no longer exists: content gone again.

Look at the game. It has a certain foundation that was laid that Anet doesn’t really have the means or possibility to deviate from, even if needed.

It’s an interesting idea to bring out small updates regularly, but what comes and goes puts pressure on people to do it now or miss out on it and what stays are small things here and there that never give you the feeling of a big renewal of the game, a revamp, a new beginning. All games become stale, MMOs for sure…after a while you want to renew it and be reinvigorated. An expansion can do this. Little bits here and there don’t give me that feeling.

I played the game at the start. Quit after the game was out, not even 3 months. I just came back 8 months later and leveled a toon to 80. Got bored again. So yeh, it had its value to some degree, but it doesn’t grab me to the point I want to stay and come back into the world for more than just a bit.

Apparently it works for some people, but I just don’t get that and that’s ok, but numbers aside…all games have lovers and haters. And a lot of the hate comes because people actually are engaged and what the game to be better as they see it.

This game is endgame from the start. Well, whatever happens when you are at 80 then…well it’s not there, you can already do all that stuff before. There is no real end level content because most of the dungeons can be done at lower levels already and gathering mats and money can be done before to. There really is no content for level 80. An interesting design choice but not one that works for me and at least some others as I can see here.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Some guilds are full of people who would not be welcome in your dungeon runs, but who are trying to learn the game, trying to get better, and who never complain on the forums.

Everyone is welcome in my dungeon runs as long as they are willing to listen and willing to learn.

Vayne.8563:

Galtrix.7369:

Mujen.5287:

GW2 is a grind? I played Aion for almost 3 years, I will show you grind.

And yet Aion is still more fun than this.

Subjective. Aion sucked for a whole lot of people. If Aion was more fun than this, more people would currently be playing Aion than this…and that’s not the case as far as I can tell.

Well, they will be introducing the aethertech class this year, which is basically a walker loaded with all kinds of weapons that you can pilot. Since this is really unque for an MMORPG, I will give that a try.

Oxstar.7643:

Vayne.8563:

Galtrix.7369:

Mujen.5287:

GW2 is a grind? I played Aion for almost 3 years, I will show you grind.

And yet Aion is still more fun than this.

Subjective. Aion sucked for a whole lot of people. If Aion was more fun than this, more people would currently be playing Aion than this…and that’s not the case as far as I can tell.

Well, they will be introducing the aethertech class this year, which is basically a walker loaded with all kinds of weapons that you can pilot. Since this is really unque for an MMORPG, I will give that a try.

The combat system here and the decommission of the holy trinity was also unique here but was horribly implemented. It all depends… Aion for me was a farm fest bigger than what I can endure.

You guys need to listen to this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-aHuXLa3uI

Bright.9160:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Some guilds are full of people who would not be welcome in your dungeon runs, but who are trying to learn the game, trying to get better, and who never complain on the forums.

Everyone is welcome in my dungeon runs as long as they are willing to listen and willing to learn.

Ahah! Looks like I made an assumption, so apologies for that.

defrule.7236:

You guys need to listen to this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-aHuXLa3uI

I am about half way done with this video and cannot find a single thing to disagree with him on, in fact I think I have been saying almost the exact same things myself for years.

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

Sorry, but I’m not being subjective when I say lots of people didn’t like Aion. That’s not subjective. Whether the game is good or not isn’t what I spoke about. You like to pick on me…why don’t you pick on the subjective guy I was first responding to.

It’s like you’re not even reading what I’m saying, so I’ll try again.

Example one…Aion is a bad game.

That’s opinion.

Example two… A whole lot of people thought Aion was a bad game.

I’m not saying it’s a fact, but it’s got a REALLY high probability of being a fact. Here’s another fact for you.

I didn’t personally mind Aion at all.

A whole lot is subjective. It means different things to different people. That’s why it’s subjective. What is a whole lot? 10k people, 50k people, 100k people, 2 million people? That’s different for everybody, hence subjective.

The point is though, what are you trying to say with “a whole lot of people didn’t like Aion”? What is that supposed to bring to the table? Since you can say that of any game that was ever made known to man, it’s a meaningless point. It’s just a generality that people use to imply something without actually saying it.

So either you had no point with it or you were implying something with it, which you probably can’t substantiate. But hey, at least you can claim deniability right?

Subject here is that there are people who find GW2’s philosophy flawed and those who don’t. Lots of people on both sides of that if you like. What’s more interesting is why.

So let’s bring it back to why people do or do not care for the GW2 approach.

My main point is that they present a constant stream of snacks. I prefer full meals, something more substantial that I can take my time in doing. I don’t like the snacks because they are often fleeting and gone before you know it. Then it no longer exists: content gone again.

Look at the game. It has a certain foundation that was laid that Anet doesn’t really have the means or possibility to deviate from, even if needed.

It’s an interesting idea to bring out small updates regularly, but what comes and goes puts pressure on people to do it now or miss out on it and what stays are small things here and there that never give you the feeling of a big renewal of the game, a revamp, a new beginning. All games become stale, MMOs for sure…after a while you want to renew it and be reinvigorated. An expansion can do this. Little bits here and there don’t give me that feeling.

I played the game at the start. Quit after the game was out, not even 3 months. I just came back 8 months later and leveled a toon to 80. Got bored again. So yeh, it had its value to some degree, but it doesn’t grab me to the point I want to stay and come back into the world for more than just a bit.

Apparently it works for some people, but I just don’t get that and that’s ok, but numbers aside…all games have lovers and haters. And a lot of the hate comes because people actually are engaged and what the game to be better as they see it.

This game is endgame from the start. Well, whatever happens when you are at 80 then…well it’s not there, you can already do all that stuff before. There is no real end level content because most of the dungeons can be done at lower levels already and gathering mats and money can be done before to. There really is no content for level 80. An interesting design choice but not one that works for me and at least some others as I can see here.

A whole lot is not subjective. It’s just not specific. It’s casual language. It means many or even a bit more than many. It’s not saying most. It’s casual language. When people are talking casually, casual language is allowed. Not every point in these conversations is going to be scientific.

Like your point about snacks and meals…the analogy doesn’t hold. This is where your opinion, which is completely subjective, starts to sound a bit disingenuous.

You have an opinion about what serious content is. But one man’s serious content is another man’s snacks. In real life, meals are important, snacks are not. In video games, you can’t really call one thing snacks and one thing meals, because there’s no nutritional value or what’s good or bad for you here. You’re simply using language as a way to dismiss the opinions of others.

In my mind, dungeons are snacks and open world content is meals.

I do agree with your point about having to do things quickly however. Which is why I’m glad achievement points mean so little.

defrule.7236:

You guys need to listen to this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-aHuXLa3uI

I’d get very off topic replying to this whole “rant” (which is not so much a rant as a VLog) but I can sum it up in this: (Edit: Realized I ran on WAY longer than initially thought.)

If a developer creates content which is good and entertaining, I don’t think it’s a perfect state of affairs (sight unseen) but I will not decry it as a waste of time . . . even though all games objectively ARE huge wastes of time, but that’s another off topic tangent for another time.

Player-created content of the type he’s talking about (I think it’s called “emergent gameplay”)? Always runs three risks. Warning: generalizations ahead.

- It alienates the players who just can’t fight back. Raise your hand if you were in the old days when PvP combat in an MMO was normal and expected. Also raise your hand if you ever played a FPS online and the skill difference between you and everyone else was just so insurmountable there was no fun to be had . . . just repeated deaths and respawning. This is not fun for people, and it is an inevitable event which happens to people under this framework.

- If players don’t behave, it’s not fun. Talking of general crappiness how many people would do things simply to waste others’ time. I’m not talking about PvP, I’m talking about what we call trolling. I’m talking about “sure I’ll show you the way” and two hours later you realize you’ve been lead in something the shape of a rude word I can’t say on the forums. Or someone who tells you how to find something, only they’re making the whole thing up to be as unhelpful as possible. Note, this somewhat is changed if there’s a chance for bloody retribution later on these people . . . but from experience? These people don’t leave safety that often.

- There is a very real chance of locking out people who are new or fresh to the content. We’re talking similar to the first point, where the other players are skilled or knowledgeable enough later in the life cycle, there’s no real point to letting new people . . . actual, fresh new players . . . join in. It’s better to obliterate them and go back to business as usual, or to just let them go and hope they disappear. And the new people will inevitably wander into some plot or something where they have absolutely no idea what is going on . . . and suffer for it for no reason other than “wrong place, wrong time”.

I, myself, don’t like multiplayer games where other players can erase my progress because they’re bored or need the lulz. I quit Ultima Online once because it was such a shark tank for me (being unskilled at PvP) and I have not-fond memories of Meridian 59 solely because of blind/hold/archery gank squads.

I’d love to say I’d support player-created content but there’s such an unappealing dark side to it . . . I’d rather stay out of it entirely.

I enjoy it myself, but I play a few other f2p mmos. If I am getting burned out with one, I switch to another.

I DON’T mind some timegated stuff, with the living world content. But I haven’t enjoyed it all. If I don’t I go switch to something else for a bit.

@vayne
A whole lot is subjective. A whole lot may be casual language but casual language often caters to subjective phrases.
Here – this may help you get it… I hope:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_are_subjective_symptoms

While you say it doesn’t mean most of, it implies it. If it’s not your intention to imply a majority, then the comment becomes pointless.

I thought it was quite clear that gehenna referred to himself/herself when commenting on the content. I could not see dismissal, only preference. Gehenna even says it works for some and not for others. Not sure where that dismissal part is coming from.

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Yes, people assume grind means gear grind, but to older MMOers, that’s not the original definition

Which older MMOers ? You seem to be claiming to speak for a lot of people here. I am an older MMOer and yet what you say is off target for me.

Vayne.8563:

And there was vertical progression in this game from day one (and Anet has said that ascended gear was always supposed to be in the game).

When someone opts to say something like that after the fact rather than before, when they supposedly had it as their intention all along, it makes the statement seem suspect. This is particularly the case when those making the statement have made other statements that have since been shown to be untrue.

Vayne.8563:

I know there are a lot of people who want no vertical progression and expected that to be in the game. But that still has nothing to do with the manifesto.

Except that the manifesto told us that there would not be gear progression in GW2.

Vayne.8563:

If the poster said that I didn’t expect vertical progression, but that’s what I got…I’d have a lot less problem with that. My problem is people blaming that belief on the manifesto.

Except that the manifesto told us that there would not be gear progression in GW2.

Grind meant to kill things to level. That’s what it traditionally meant. Gear grind came much later. Most of the early MMOs were grind fests, not talking about gear but talking about leveling.

As I’ve pointed out, even if you look up grind in Wikipedia, it gives that definition first. Sure grind has come to mean a whole lot of other things but NONE of that is mentioned or referred to in the manifesto. There’s a whole thread about it, several in fact.

People can only repeat over and over again that there’s a line that says “We dont’ want people to grind in Guild Wars 2.” And all those people ignore two lines before that when Colin says precisely what grind he’s referring to. In most games there’s this “annoying grind” that you have to get through to get to the fun stuff.

How anyone can say that talks about vertical progression is beyond me.

I made no claim regarding that specific portion of the manifesto. I was not referring to it at all when I stated that the manifesto told us there would be no gear progression in GW2.

A lack of gear progression has been described by many GW1 players as one of the aspects of the game that they loved. One of the reasons they played GW1 and not games such as WoW. In countless threads on many forums (public and private) this one aspect of GW1 has been often praised by those who embraced the original GW1 credo of skill > time spent. This was not an unknown factor to ANet. This was no secret at the time the comment, “everything you love about GW1,” was made.

Expecting every small detail (I would love to see the Strombow skin in GW2, but oh well) to be included in that phrase would be silly. Something as game defining as gear progression is something else entirely. An extremely popular, and a core defining aspect of gameplay, from GW1 was excluded. We were told it would not be.

And, for whakittens worth, “a lot of people don’t like Aion,” is subjective because the term, " a lot," has no objective definition. Someone might consider the number of people who do not like Aion to not be, “a lot.”

Personally I found it to be ok. Not great. Not terrible. I haven’t played it in quite some time. I tend to agree that a lot of people don’t like it.

Sorry, I missed the part in the OP where ArenaNet held a gun to their dog’s head and threatened to splatter puppy brain matter all over the room if the OP didn’t do all the things in game.

Until such time as I have evidence this is going on, I’m going have to politely explain that the reason there are so many things to do each day is to let us choose what we want to do and when we want to do it. We aren’t meant to do it all every day.

Please take some responsibility for your own game experience. There is nothing in this game you HAVE to do. Even so much as logging in is a choice.

nethykins.7986:

@vayne
A whole lot is subjective. A whole lot may be casual language but casual language often caters to subjective phrases.
Here – this may help you get it… I hope:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_are_subjective_symptoms

While you say it doesn’t mean most of, it implies it. If it’s not your intention to imply a majority, then the comment becomes pointless.

I thought it was quite clear that gehenna referred to himself/herself when commenting on the content. I could not see dismissal, only preference. Gehenna even says it works for some and not for others. Not sure where that dismissal part is coming from.

Sorry, but “a whole lot” doesn’t imply a majority. It implies a whole lot. Check out this sentence.

I ate a whole lot of apples yesterday. Does that mean I ate the majority of apples?

I went to the stadium and there were a whole lot of people. Does that mean most people were at the stadium.

You can argue English with me till the cows come home, but you won’t often win. Casual conversation is casual conversation. If I wanted to say most, I’d have used the word most.

I was simply saying that a whole lot of people didn’t like Aion and that’s almost certainly a truth. You can argue semantics with me if you want, but I stand by what I said.

A whole lot of people didn’t like it. How many? No idea? Most who tried it? Possibly. I have no way of knowing.

But I do know that a whole lot of people who play PvE mostly games (and there are many) felt that when they ran out of quests and had to PvP, it was suddenly not the game for them.

And yes, I would qualify that as a whole lot of people.

Just like a whole lot of people left Guild Wars 2 when ascended gear was introduced. Was it a significant portion of the population? I don’t know. But it was a whole lot of people.

Casual language. Not everything needs to be dissected.

Vayne.8563:

A whole lot is not subjective. It’s just not specific. It’s casual language. It means many or even a bit more than many. It’s not saying most. It’s casual language. When people are talking casually, casual language is allowed. Not every point in these conversations is going to be scientific.

Since the specific meaning of “a whole lot” depends upon the person, or the subject, it is subjective. It seems normal behaviour to speak in non specifics and generalities but that doesn’t stop it from being subjective.

Vayne.8563:

Like your point about snacks and meals…the analogy doesn’t hold. This is where your opinion, which is completely subjective, starts to sound a bit disingenuous.

Thanks for not explaining why it doesn’t hold, but that’s what I’ve come to expect from you. So it’s an unsubstantiated opinion on your behalf.

And don’t turn the tables here. YOU are the one that started calling out people for being subjective. I don’t think it’s wrong to be subjective because that’s what opinions are. I am just saying that you rail on other people for being subjective but you do it yourself. I am not implying that I agree with you that subjectivity is wrong. So you are the disingenuous one here, not me. Just saying.

Vayne.8563:

You have an opinion about what serious content is. But one man’s serious content is another man’s snacks. In real life, meals are important, snacks are not. In video games, you can’t really call one thing snacks and one thing meals, because there’s no nutritional value or what’s good or bad for you here. You’re simply using language as a way to dismiss the opinions of others.

In my mind, dungeons are snacks and open world content is meals.

I do agree with your point about having to do things quickly however. Which is why I’m glad achievement points mean so little.

And that’s my point, it’s all subjective. It’s my opinion and I have reasons for that opinion. Just because you have a different view doesn’t make me wrong or disingenuous. I thought it was clear it was my opinion, my view, not a general truth. That’s your own interpretation.

I see content that comes and goes as snacks, because of the duration and the fact that it doesn’t satisfy me and because it’s just a little bit at a time you need more of it more often. You would agree that the LS stuff has a higher frequency than expansions and are smaller than expansions. That’s why I see an expansion as a full meal: I can eat at my pace and feel satisfied for a while. I don’t need a new meal for a while then. It’s like ordering from the Chinese restaurant. You get a lot of variation, there’s always too much so you always have lots left over for the next day. So the analogy stands. I even gave an explanation for it.

You have a different frame of reference, but you can’t reasonably deny that from my frame of reference this analogy does make sense.

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

A whole lot is not subjective. It’s just not specific. It’s casual language. It means many or even a bit more than many. It’s not saying most. It’s casual language. When people are talking casually, casual language is allowed. Not every point in these conversations is going to be scientific.

Since the specific meaning of “a whole lot” depends upon the person, or the subject, it is subjective. It seems normal behaviour to speak in non specifics and generalities but that doesn’t stop it from being subjective.

Vayne.8563:

Like your point about snacks and meals…the analogy doesn’t hold. This is where your opinion, which is completely subjective, starts to sound a bit disingenuous.

Thanks for not explaining why it doesn’t hold, but that’s what I’ve come to expect from you. So it’s an unsubstantiated opinion on your behalf.

And don’t turn the tables here. YOU are the one that started calling out people for being subjective. I don’t think it’s wrong to be subjective because that’s what opinions are. I am just saying that you rail on other people for being subjective but you do it yourself. I am not implying that I agree with you that subjectivity is wrong. So you are the disingenuous one here, not me. Just saying.

Vayne.8563:

You have an opinion about what serious content is. But one man’s serious content is another man’s snacks. In real life, meals are important, snacks are not. In video games, you can’t really call one thing snacks and one thing meals, because there’s no nutritional value or what’s good or bad for you here. You’re simply using language as a way to dismiss the opinions of others.

In my mind, dungeons are snacks and open world content is meals.

I do agree with your point about having to do things quickly however. Which is why I’m glad achievement points mean so little.

And that’s my point, it’s all subjective. It’s my opinion and I have reasons for that opinion. Just because you have a different view doesn’t make me wrong or disingenuous. I thought it was clear it was my opinion, my view, not a general truth. That’s your own interpretation.

I see content that comes and goes as snacks, because of the duration and the fact that it doesn’t satisfy me and because it’s just a little bit at a time you need more of it more often. You would agree that the LS stuff has a higher frequency than expansions and are smaller than expansions. That’s why I see an expansion as a full meal: I can eat at my pace and feel satisfied for a while. I don’t need a new meal for a while then. It’s like ordering from the Chinese restaurant. You get a lot of variation, there’s always too much so you always have lots left over for the next day. So the analogy stands. I even gave an explanation for it.

You have a different frame of reference, but you can’t reasonably deny that from my frame of reference this analogy does make sense.

I support you Gehenna.We know who is the most subjective here and only thinks his opinion only matters.We know who doesnt like other opinions and call them subjective.We know who that contradicts every opinion he doesn’t really like.We know who who thinks all his own opinions are not subjective.

xephire.8324:

I support you Gehenna.We know who is the most subjective here and only thinks his opinion only matters.We know who doesnt like other opinions and call them subjective.We know who that contradicts every opinion he doesn’t really like.We know who who thinks all his own opinions are not subjective.

And his name was Robert Paulson. (Not the actor, just some guy somewhere . . . )

You know, I really think the Internet doesn’t know the difference between “subjective” and “objective” anymore with all the hatchet-job logic floating around here. And the concept that proving one phrase was misspoken collapses or invalidates an argument unrelated to it.

The thing really looks like this:

You all know what Vayne is saying in spirit, and some of you don’t agree with him. And the fact he keeps saying it doesn’t sit well with you, so you feel the need to try to get him to stop by poking holes in the details until he shuts up. Problem is, that’s not really working, it just redirects his attention to fending off the hole-punching and the original point gets lost somewhere around page two. Much like Vayne often knows what you mean, and can’t resist taking shots at people who won’t leave him alone, and then we get the same thing going on.

It’s fine you folk don’t agree. And it’s also fine you (plural) can base your opinion on something other than fact, like emotions and perceptions. (No, stop, don’t hit reply just yet to refute me.) Differences of opinion are awesome to have, because it means we haven’t turned into a collective subconscious spewing memes and not coming up with anything new. Dissenting opinions are GOOD.

So can we stop trying to browbeat each other into submission or hoping the other person shuts up quicker? Because, you know, it’s been (checking calendar . . .) coming up on a year since this sort of thing started off and people began these sort of discussions. It hasn’t stopped yet, people who were talking then are still fighting the same argument now.

Nobody is giving up their position, so can we leave it alone and discuss more productive matters, like how things can be changed around rather than whether or not “a lot” is a subjective measurement, an objective one, or a colloquialism with no actual meaning.

Who knows, we might actually raise good points and fresh ideas.

Firm…… But fair.

Bright.9160:

Not to mention, many people I play with would qualify in the communities’ eyes as ‘hardcore’ and have jobs, or family or study at university etc. Just like the casuals have jobs, family, or study at university. Both sides spend money on the game, until you have any statistics that ‘casuals’ spend more, your argument holds no water and is pure speculation.

My definition of hardcore is 5+ hours a day, at least 6 days a week. Consistently.
That’s not compatible with having a job and a family.

My definition of casual is max 2 hours a day, 3-4 days a week. Often less. Often takes week long breaks.
Let’s not forget that even that time commitment is pretty hardcore when compared to non-gaming hobbies.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Who knows, we might actually raise good points and fresh ideas.

This is always the hope of course.

I don’t mind that Vayne has his opinions. What I do mind is that he attacks people with other opinions and calls them subjective or anything else while at the same time he does exactly the same.

If he loves GW2, that’s great for him. But he actually derails threads by methods that he accuses other people of. He then incorrectly thinks that I am defending the method itself which is not true in a lot of cases. What I really accuse him of is the pot calling the kettle black, not that he has a different opinion to mine.

There are points I wanted to discuss with him and it’s ok if it gets heated at times. It got out of hand once not too long ago and I apologised for my part in it. He didn’t. My guess is that he thinks he’s right so he the method doesn’t matter. I am not entirey convinced of that strategy.

Now before this thread gets even more derailed, I will commit to it myself. I will again stop responding to him in this thread and just speak of the topic of the thread before it goes out of control.

Anet set up GW2 with a certain idea in mind. Perhaps it’s not the same idea they started out with (see the discussions on the manifesto for that topic), but at some point the foundation was laid and the game came out. This is a year ago now.

Over 3 million people bought the game. That’s not bad I’d say. I don’t think half of them are playing anymore on a regular basis but that’s normal in my view for MMOs.

For the sake of the discussion we can exclude people who left the game and forgot about it. They are lost to the game and so be it.

Then there are people who are perfectly happy in game. My guess is, they don’t come here a whole lot.

And then there’s a big grey area. People who like this game to some degree, but varying degrees. All this for different reasons as well. Some find it too childish, some find the combat system lacking, the story telling poor, endgame missing, the game to be grindy or too easy etc etc etc. Some will say all of the above.

My guess is that the people who post here to complain generally do like something about the game and want it to go in a different direction. And at that point we are all selfish kittens. We want what we want, but why wouldn’t we?

I object to someone calling someone else selfish because they simply want something. Apparently they feel threatened by someone else’s wishes, as if them saying it will make it true and ruin their experience. Which you could call selfish at the same time.

So, I think people (and I don’t exclude myself) have a tendency to attack opinions, whereas the only thing that could be considered constructive would be to actually discuss opinions and try to understand why someone says something rather than just disagreeing with it or throwing mud. That’s why I attack method more than content, because I know opinions are opinions but they get derailed by the way people discuss rather than actually discussing things.

Ironically I find myself talking about method to people rather than content as a consequence but my point there is this: I don’t care which opinion you have. You can think GW2 is the best game ever and Anet are game gods. It’s ok to be a white knight or a fanboi. But I do find it a shame that the methods people use actually detracts from their views.

There are always exceptions, but I see that people get upset at each other more about the way they talk to each other than the actual opinion.

And so the OP here feels the philosophy behind GW2 as a game was ill conceived. Some will agree, some won’t. Bottom line is that it’s always personal.

I can only say that their current philosophy fails for me. It doesn’t keep me entertained enough to play this game as a MMO. I play it as a single player RPG that I pick up once or twice a year. If it hadn’t been named Guild Wars I probably wouldn’t have played it at all.

marnick.4305:

Bright.9160:

Not to mention, many people I play with would qualify in the communities’ eyes as ‘hardcore’ and have jobs, or family or study at university etc. Just like the casuals have jobs, family, or study at university. Both sides spend money on the game, until you have any statistics that ‘casuals’ spend more, your argument holds no water and is pure speculation.

My definition of hardcore is 5+ hours a day, at least 6 days a week. Consistently.
That’s not compatible with having a job and a family.

My definition of casual is max 2 hours a day, 3-4 days a week. Often less. Often takes week long breaks.
Let’s not forget that even that time commitment is pretty hardcore when compared to non-gaming hobbies.

So… You kind of missed a lot of middle ground there…