Guild Wars 2

Treeline.3865:

Ok, let’s assume he wasn’t talking about the exotic skins.
- It was announced already in november that there would be more ascended stuff in the future.
- It has now been 2 months, still no additions
- January update contains no new content
- February is focused on PvP if you are to believe mod posts.
- March sounds is the first plausible time where something like ascended weapons could be added.

So maybe he “wasted” his time having a nice weapon for the next months. I don’t see the problem.

— Also ill take ignorant back, sorry.

I appreciate it, thank you

I also see the point you’re making clearer now, and I personally don’t think it’s such a huge deal either. It would have just been much easier to get your point if you didn’t post something as spam like as what you did

Also holidays wreak havoc with productivity, we’re probably just seeing the result of some much needed RNR from A-Nets teams as they are human too.
Speculation isn’t always a great thing, as it can often be very biased or just out and out silly, but that doesn’t mean he shouldn’t look ahead and still feel that this added vertical progression is wrong, which is basically what the thread boils down to regardless if you agree with him or not. As I said before I’ve no issue with vertical progression so long as it’s handled correctly, unfortunately I don’t think it has and neither does A-Net by their own admission. But I feel that’s a failure to accept that their legendary items are the real disaster and this is damage control to lessen that without driving more “invested” players away. Again, just opinion there.

Desamos.1836:

So people constantly need to get new gear to satisfy their needs? Why can’t someone just buy one Ferrari, and take good care of it : /

THIS!

Correct me if I’m wrong here, but, if you have the skills the weapon won’t make a blasted bit of difference.

You folks sound like a bunch of junkies lol.

@Hellkaiser i have already seen a few of the skins, and they are exotic.
Source, myself. Level 21 fractals here. Have witnessed 2 people get skin so far.

Treeline.3865:

@Hellkaiser i have already seen a few of the skins, and they are exotic.
Source, myself. Level 21 fractals here. Have witnessed 2 people get skin so far.

Aren’t those not the ascended weapons though but instead the exotics that just currently drop from the existing fractals? :/ it was my understanding and seemed pretty clear that they were going to be added at a later date and right now you’d just get exotics dropping from there, and the only ascended would be the ring and back piece?

As for the other comment above about us being like junkies. If you aren’t going for a “treadmill, vertical progression” then you need to replace it with something meaningful. In your opinion what is that? because for some, not all of course… playing a game for the sake of playing a game doesn’t really offer them much of a gameplay experience and in fact just seems like a terrible cop out response. Remember for it to be viable it should at least substitute the aforementioned well or at least somewhat, if you’re not going for statistical upgrades you can go for incomparables of course like adding a new skill to your weapon which is situationally better than x but possibly worse than Y etc and all that. But what we’re seeing here is a total lack of skin variation and a huge emphasis on what many would consider a torture rack of RNG and grinding. If the games about skins, more skins are needed for the progressive system to be BASED on that and keep us entertained and challenged. If they add more than ascended weaponry then we enter into the potential of power creep gradually popping it’s head up and saying “HI”

But rather than see much discussion all I keep seeing from those defending GW2 are the usual “go to responses”

“If you don’t like it don’t/stop play(ing) it”

“You’re not forced to grind”

“It’s better than the alternatives”

“I don’t share your issues therefore it’s fine”

There aren’t any ascended weps.

Yes, they are the “exotics that drop from fractals”, if i remember correctly they are all named fractal something- I’ve seen 3-4 threads about fractal weapons now, and assumed this was another assuming that fractal weapons = ascended weapons. That’s why i initially just made the statement that ascended weapons do not exist.

KRUSSIDULL.6845:

I know it sucks.

RIP GW2

Sincerely
GW1 players

Please stop acting like all GW1 players agree with you.

Sincerely
a GW1 player

Sylv.5324:

KRUSSIDULL.6845:

I know it sucks.

RIP GW2

Sincerely
GW1 players

Please stop acting like all GW1 players agree with you.

Sincerely
a GW1 player

Confirmed.
Sincerely another GW1 player.

Sylv.5324:

KRUSSIDULL.6845:

I know it sucks.

RIP GW2

Sincerely
GW1 players

Please stop acting like all GW1 players agree with you.

Sincerely
a GW1 player

Same here.

Anyway, I think this is a case of a mountain being made out of a molehill.

Desamos.1836:

about Ascended weapons. Got my inquest longbow, inquest sword, inquest dagger, inquest harpoon, and inquest spear gun. Put superior sigil of fire, and energy runes on them. Now Ascended weapons have come to my attention, and that I will soon no longer have max damage weapons. What was the point of me working so hard getting all this gear?

I see i guess you can get by with out a weapon until they add in Ascended weapons right?
Truth is no one knows when this is going on and its NOT now so you will get use out of what you have now and there is nothing in the game that will replaces what you have up until that point. At best this is just a random post bring up old things that have been talked TO DEATH.

xerca.6135:

Where have you found this information about there being Ascended weapons?

They’ve already made statements that:

A: Legendary weapons will be given the stats of Ascended gear (even tho we’re lead to believe that ascended isn’t that much more powerful then exotic, i know right)

B: Legendary weapons requirements will be adjusted to a lower setting so that they are a but easier to obtain then they are now.

No specifics on time were given on these tho.

tigirius.9014:

xerca.6135:

Where have you found this information about there being Ascended weapons?

They’ve already made statements that:

A: Legendary weapons will be given the stats of Ascended gear (even tho we’re lead to believe that ascended isn’t that much more powerful then exotic, i know right)

B: Legendary weapons requirements will be adjusted to a lower setting so that they are a but easier to obtain then they are now.

No specifics on time were given on these tho.

WHYYY do people keep saying that Anet said they’re going to make Legendaries easier to get? They said they’re going to add a scavenger hunt system to get a precusor. For all you know this scavenger hunt will take anyone from 2 weeks to 3 months to complete.
I just don’t want people to constantly keep saying they’re going to make it “easier” to obtain and then rage when the scavenger hunt is going to be hard/time consuming.

Hickeroar.9734:

There aren’t any ascended weapons. Just rings and backpieces. It took me less than three weeks of working on fractals to get two upgraded rings and an upgraded backpiece. It’s not like a lot of work is involved…

More gear will come, of course, but I would expect ascended weapons to be the LAST things in the list to get ascended attention.

Even Fractal weapons are still exotic….

And they should stay that way

Easier to buy the exotic. Bought 2 carrion daggers and 2 exotic orrian pistols for a total of 6 gold. Only difference between what I bought and the inquest versions is the look, nothing more.

people forget that Anet are trying to lure in more players than GW1 had. So all the referances about what made GW1 is irrelevant. Its not the same game, deal with it. Its getting boring to hear about GW1 when most of GW2 players didnt even play it.

Granted GW1 may have been an awesome game to those that played it, but as a buisness would you opt for the model that nets you more people (more money; kinda the reason they are in buisness) or stick to one that worked for a select few? I know which one id sure as hell go for if it was my millions id invested.

nawrasz.6219:

tigirius.9014:

xerca.6135:

Where have you found this information about there being Ascended weapons?

They’ve already made statements that:

A: Legendary weapons will be given the stats of Ascended gear (even tho we’re lead to believe that ascended isn’t that much more powerful then exotic, i know right)

B: Legendary weapons requirements will be adjusted to a lower setting so that they are a but easier to obtain then they are now.

No specifics on time were given on these tho.

WHYYY do people keep saying that Anet said they’re going to make Legendaries easier to get? They said they’re going to add a scavenger hunt system to get a precusor. For all you know this scavenger hunt will take anyone from 2 weeks to 3 months to complete.
I just don’t want people to constantly keep saying they’re going to make it “easier” to obtain and then rage when the scavenger hunt is going to be hard/time consuming.

Because they did, they said they were looking into reducing some of the material costs in making them and that they would let us know in the future what their changes would be. Sorry you didn’t read that somewhere. I know I did.

BTW they made this statement long before the scavenger hunt was announced.

Yes. I enjoyed GW1 for YEARS and never wanted new gear. I kept coming back to GW1 from other MMOs because I was SICK AND TIRED of having to upgrade my gear all the dang time.

Ascended gear is the biggest disappointment in MMOs, ever. I could have played any other MMO and ground out gear. I wanted to play GW2 so I WOULDN’T HAVE TO!

Thanks for listening to your fans, ArenaNet, and keeping everything that was great about Guild Wars (/sarcasm).

I love everyone who says that ArenaNet should not have stuck with the Guild Wars model.

Obviously, no one here even fathoms the amount of potential this game had if they would have stuck with what they know and added new features to attract more players.

The biggest reason why many people did not play Guild Wars was because it was not a persistent world, it had a level 20 cap, and there was no jumping. Those are literally the main reasons why Guild Wars never took off and became the next big hit (not to mention many hardcore players would not devote themselves to both World of Warcraft and Guild Wars).

Why does everyone complain about Guild Wars players wanting this game to be like the original? The original was epic, consistent, exciting and had a stable community for many years. If there was no instancing, and instead the world would have been persistent, it would have been one of the most immersive experiences ever. It was also an incredibly easy game to understand and it always made sense what your next goal was.

Sure, it had its flaws, like too many useless skills and an optimal metagame, but because ArenaNet overextended, Guild Wars 2 has much more flaws. It feels like Guild Wars 2 is the jack of all trades, master of none almost.

Idk that’s just my opinion. I just get on the forum like once a month to see how the game is doing and it looks like the situation has not changed.

There are no ascended weapons currently available. In the mean time, that exotic gear you received can help with things like dungeons and fractals.

Because gear progression retains players and appeals to the mass audience. :/

At the moment, however, you’re not locked out of any playable content without Ascended gear. But I’ll be honest, I wouldn’t have ran fractals 230+ times if there weren’t shinies.

SwampDonkey.2578:

Great video explaining what can happen if Anet are not careful, but so far I have no problem with the way things are. Watch the video very enlightening.

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/power-creep

Great watch thanks, i hope the right people get to see it

There aren’t any ascended weps.

Yet…

I don’t think they’re going to implement ascended weapons anytime soon. That post was before they found out how bad implementing ascended gear was in the open world and they have said they will not do this anytime “soon”. However, I do agree with the unnecessary need for a gear progression to be present. If they did want to implement a gear progression then they should make uglier or plainer looking ascended gear very easy to obtain (if not free, that’s too much to ask eh) but hold the same stats. Again, grinding for more esthetic gear and having a significant advantage because you have better gear is two different things. If they could separate these two entities properly and it can be easily done by the method I have just mentioned (similar to how pvp is run) then there would be no reason for people to complain.

Desamos.1836:

about Ascended weapons. Got my inquest longbow, inquest sword, inquest dagger, inquest harpoon, and inquest spear gun. Put superior sigil of fire, and energy runes on them. Now Ascended weapons have come to my attention, and that I will soon no longer have max damage weapons. What was the point of me working so hard getting all this gear?

I suggest that you get on that gear treadmill and start running. You will be left behind if you do not grind. Do not try to make sense of it. Start grinding. Do it now before it’s too late.

I think you are confusing work and play. We don’t play games because we want to work. Game design theorists have given this area a lot thought. Basically we play because it’s fun. Reasons it might be fun might include fantasy, i.e., we really want to be the hero who saves the day and we can feel like a powerful hero there. Or, it might simply be abnegation, i.e., I’m feeling burned out by work and I want to mindlessly smash some zombies. These are examples of basic motivations for playing a game and the reason why we play.

For many a gear grind is the opposite of fun. They realize that when all players hop off the gear treadmill they are at the same relative power to each other as they were when they hopped on. Meanwhile the environment has attained the new power level as well so they are at the same power relative to the environment as they were before the new tier of gear. Nothing has changed. No one has gone anywhere. They have just expended in-game time and effort to keep up with the stat progression. This is an example of a forced grind. A forced grind is one you must do to continue playing the game. Examples are pretty much all other MMO’s that have vertical progression.

But, many realize there is no inherent point to it. Since you are not going anywhere on a treadmill, why seek one out. I want more from a game than the simple solution of stat inflation. I believe it’s possible and I believe Anet was on the right track before the 11/15 patch. As gamers become more sophisticated in there appetites I hope that we are able to see a game developer succeed without the forced grind of gear treadmills.

Intelligently and eloquently stated. I agree with this 100% and only wish that the folks at ANet would surprise us by making a statement saying they still support this style of gameplay. It was all the rage during beta and pre-release.

If it turns out that it really was just a colossal screw up on their part and they intended to have Ascended in the game the whole time and just didn’t know it, then ok I can put up with Ascended being the highest achievable stats. BUT no bullkitten like level cap increases or new gear tiers moving forward. Ever.

Desamos.1836:

So people constantly need to get new gear to satisfy their needs? Why can’t someone just buy one Ferrari, and take good care of it : /

You can.
If you buy a Ferrari (aka Legendary weapon) it will always have the best stats of any previous gear tier.
You -can- get your “ultimate” weapon in GW2 if you so want, else you need to get the Ascended tier which is the “bridge” tier between exotics (way easy to get) and legendaries (hard to get).

Raine.1394:

For many a gear grind is the opposite of fun. They realize that when all players hop off the gear treadmill they are at the same relative power to each other as they were when they hopped on. Meanwhile the environment has attained the new power level as well so they are at the same power relative to the environment as they were before the new tier of gear. Nothing has changed. No one has gone anywhere. They have just expended in-game time and effort to keep up with the stat progression. This is an example of a forced grind. A forced grind is one you must do to continue playing the game. Examples are pretty much all other MMO’s that have vertical progression.

You do realize that you’re arguing a net gain of zero in both vertical and horizontal models, right?

Horizontal: no progression in stats, completing content for skins, zero relative gain.
Vertical: Small progression in stats, still completing content for skins, zero relative gain.

So what point exactly are you trying to make here?

The ascended gear only has like a few more stats. It’s such a small number people are missing by not having it.

Mackdose.6504:

Raine.1394:

For many a gear grind is the opposite of fun. They realize that when all players hop off the gear treadmill they are at the same relative power to each other as they were when they hopped on. Meanwhile the environment has attained the new power level as well so they are at the same power relative to the environment as they were before the new tier of gear. Nothing has changed. No one has gone anywhere. They have just expended in-game time and effort to keep up with the stat progression. This is an example of a forced grind. A forced grind is one you must do to continue playing the game. Examples are pretty much all other MMO’s that have vertical progression.

You do realize that you’re arguing a net gain of zero in both vertical and horizontal models, right?

Horizontal: no progression in stats, completing content for skins, zero relative gain.
Vertical: Small progression in stats, still completing content for skins, zero relative gain.

So what point exactly are you trying to make here?

One is a requirement if you want to be competitive, the other is not.

@mackdose

The difference lies in what you do once you hit 80. In a vertical system, 80 doesn’t really mean anything because you need to set your sights on getting BiS gear and since the definition of BiS is constantly moving, you’ll never get there.

There are some people who enjoy this and when new content is released they attack it and get the new BiS items as quickly as possible and relish the experience, but then they feel they have nothing to do until the next patch and corresponding tier of gear is released.

Other people would prefer to hit 80, get their BiS items and then go about the business of having fun in the game. This could mean WvW or doing Jumping Puzzles, doing all the dungeons, doing fractals, etc. They look forward to new content patches not because it means new gear for them to obtain, but because they are excited to explore the new areas. In theory this would mean exploring Southsun Cove and killing karkas because it’s fun to do, not because new pink items are out there for them to get. The added advantage of this method is that players can log out, go on vacation, come back later, etc and not find out that their previously BiS gear is now outdated and they need to “catch up”

Sleepcoma.9487:

@mackdose

The difference lies in what you do once you hit 80. In a vertical system, 80 doesn’t really mean anything because you need to set your sights on getting BiS gear and since the definition of BiS is constantly moving, you’ll never get there.

There are some people who enjoy this and when new content is released they attack it and get the new BiS items as quickly as possible and relish the experience, but then they feel they have nothing to do until the next patch and corresponding tier of gear is released.

Other people would prefer to hit 80, get their BiS items and then go about the business of having fun in the game. This could mean WvW or doing Jumping Puzzles, doing all the dungeons, doing fractals, etc. They look forward to new content patches not because it means new gear for them to obtain, but because they are excited to explore the new areas. In theory this would mean exploring Southsun Cove and killing karkas because it’s fun to do, not because new pink items are out there for them to get. The added advantage of this method is that players can log out, go on vacation, come back later, etc and not find out that their previously BiS gear is now outdated and they need to “catch up”

Sounds like a player issue to me. You can’t blame a game for previous MMO’s mental training.

This argument also doesn’t hold water because the stat increase in GW2 is much lower than other MMOs, meaning that you’re not gated from content for not having “BiS.” This essentially renders the “catch-up” argument moot.

There’s nothing inherent in this game’s version of vertical progression that keeps you from playing any content, and that’s by design. You can still chase skins (meaning previous armor isn’t obsolete, because you can transmute) do WvW, jumping puzzles, etc.

Mountain out of a mole hill. Power creep creeps, but power creep is also satisfying as a player.

SwampDonkey.2578:

Great video explaining what can happen if Anet are not careful, but so far I have no problem with the way things are. Watch the video very enlightening.

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/power-creep

Great video. They’ve actually already started the cycle sadly and It wasn’t even 3 months when they did so. Adding an extra gear set for an invented need for a time crunch to gain the new armor sets and then promising to raise the scores of legendary weapons to the level of ascended all while telling the playerbase that ascended really isn’t that much better then the current gear in stats has been my major issue. I deal with absolutes. For example, is +15 alot more powerful then +10? Not by itself, but what they failed to admit to or did so on purpose, was that when every piece of gear you receive has a +5 advantage, collectively this becomes a very big advantage because as any mathematician will tell you, all those +5’s add up. so if we were to say all items including the armor and weapon and trinkets all had a +5 higher then the exotics, that would equal the hypothetical score of +70. Nothing shabby about that score is it.

So we are already seeing power creep right now in the game. Just because that gear is coming and not here yet is irrelevant.

Now if they keep the system they are using for obtaining gear, guess what that means. This new power creep with me monetized greatly. For example, if they do make the gear available as a RNG drop in fractals and let’s assume they finally get rid of the bugs, and they make those drops not soulbound on aquire, those items will be sold in the TP that already suffers from manipulation. Sending many a poor schmo to the gem store to get gold. Same goes for if they make these items craftable via the mystic toilet or the crafting professions. And what happens if the keep the drops to make these items dungeon based like they do for the currency for the back items sold there? It would further widen the gap and increase the cost of the items in gold in the TP.

So the only solution i can see that would remove this endless gold lust is to make ascended items with the same scores available via karma vendors (even if they make those vendors in Orr temples like they’ve been doing with exotics) or keep the crafters happy and make ascended gear available for karma cost per recipe and make the drops of the items to make these ascended gear items open world drops without restrictions (like no more DR or lower drop rates without 50% MF). That would ultimately stop the gold lust extremism, return people to the open world, and keep this system horizontal not vertical meaning more players would have access to these items with more gameplay styles.

Imo if they REALLY wanted to improve the game they would update the loot tables for all meta events to include these items needed to craft ascended gear so that people could start gathering them at early levels. They could also, increase the number of metas found in the lower level zones (between level 30-60 only) which would return the population to world so there’s less requests in the forums for a LFG tool.

tigirius.9014:

SwampDonkey.2578:

Great video explaining what can happen if Anet are not careful, but so far I have no problem with the way things are. Watch the video very enlightening.

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/power-creep

Great video. They’ve actually already started the cycle sadly and It wasn’t even 3 months when they did so. Adding an extra gear set for an invented need for a time crunch to gain the new armor sets and then promising to raise the scores of legendary weapons to the level of ascended all while telling the playerbase that ascended really isn’t that much better then the current gear in stats has been my major issue. I deal with absolutes. For example, is +15 alot more powerful then +10? Not by itself, but what they failed to admit to or did so on purpose, was that when every piece of gear you receive has a +5 advantage, collectively this becomes a very big advantage because as any mathematician will tell you, all those +5’s add up. so if we were to say all items including the armor and weapon and trinkets all had a +5 higher then the exotics, that would equal the hypothetical score of +70. Nothing shabby about that score is it.

So we are already seeing power creep right now in the game. Just because that gear is coming and not here yet is irrelevant.

Now if they keep the system they are using for obtaining gear, guess what that means. This new power creep with me monetized greatly. For example, if they do make the gear available as a RNG drop in fractals and let’s assume they finally get rid of the bugs, and they make those drops not soulbound on aquire, those items will be sold in the TP that already suffers from manipulation. Sending many a poor schmo to the gem store to get gold. Same goes for if they make these items craftable via the mystic toilet or the crafting professions. And what happens if the keep the drops to make these items dungeon based like they do for the currency for the back items sold there? It would further widen the gap and increase the cost of the items in gold in the TP.

So the only solution i can see that would remove this endless gold lust is to make ascended items with the same scores available via karma vendors (even if they make those vendors in Orr temples like they’ve been doing with exotics) or keep the crafters happy and make ascended gear available for karma cost per recipe and make the drops of the items to make these ascended gear items open world drops without restrictions (like no more DR or lower drop rates without 50% MF). That would ultimately stop the gold lust extremism, return people to the open world, and keep this system horizontal not vertical meaning more players would have access to these items with more gameplay styles.

What? This post makes no sense at all. Anet already intends to put Ascended in the open world, and the entire “IT’S ONLY TO GET PEOPLE TO BUY GEMS” conspiracy tarnishes your point.

Also, there is nothing inherent in GW2’s design that makes vertical progression limit styles of play. You can’t complain about a problem that doesn’t exist.

Desamos.1836:

What was the point of me working so hard getting all this gear?

The point is the same as it was for the previous 5 tiers. You put in work and effort to upgrade your white starter items into blues. You put in work and effort to upgrade your blue items into greens. You put in work and effort to upgrade your greens into yellows. You put in work and effort to upgrade your yellow items to orange. And Now you put in work and effort to upgrade your orange items to pink.

the problem was previously it took 10 minutes to go from T1(white) to T4(yellow) and then only about 10 hours to go from T4 to T5. The next step up was at 1000 hours in the form of legendaries. Now they are adding a middle ground of 100 hours(ish) to give a middle marker to people so they don’t get burnt out by the previously gigantic gap.

Nothing has changed, they just realized their mistake and are correcting it. The only mistake they made in this transition was only allowing the items to be obtained in 1 way instead of releasing all the methods at once.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Nothing has changed, they just realized their mistake and are correcting it. The only mistake they made in this transition was only allowing the items to be obtained in 1 way instead of releasing all the methods at once.

Quoted for emphasis. This is exactly what happened and as long as it is corrected in a fun and engaging way, all is forgiven in my eyes. Until then; WHERE’S THAT BLOG COLIN?

Mackdose.6504:

Raine.1394:

For many a gear grind is the opposite of fun. They realize that when all players hop off the gear treadmill they are at the same relative power to each other as they were when they hopped on. Meanwhile the environment has attained the new power level as well so they are at the same power relative to the environment as they were before the new tier of gear. Nothing has changed. No one has gone anywhere. They have just expended in-game time and effort to keep up with the stat progression. This is an example of a forced grind. A forced grind is one you must do to continue playing the game. Examples are pretty much all other MMO’s that have vertical progression.

You do realize that you’re arguing a net gain of zero in both vertical and horizontal models, right?

Horizontal: no progression in stats, completing content for skins, zero relative gain.
Vertical: Small progression in stats, still completing content for skins, zero relative gain.

So what point exactly are you trying to make here?

I thought I made that clear. With vertical progression there is a forced grind required in order to continue playing the game. No matter how low the power curve there will be a point at which you need to hop on the treadmill if you want to continue playing the game. Horizontal progression does not have this downside. All ‘grinds’ are optional and I have no problem with a legendary ‘grind’ or any other goal a player may wish to pursue. For me, the issue is forced grind as opposed to optional grind. That is the point I wished to make.

Ascended gear was announced only 3 months after the game’s release.

As far as I’m concerned it was just something they were working on that didn’t make it into the release. So I just like to look at it like it is part of the basic rarity scale.

Any players who started the game around the holidays shouldn’t have anything to complain about. Anet isn’t stating outright that new types of items are going to start coming out every 3 months.

It is one change. One.

And yes, if they start releasing a new type of rarity every year, I’m going to be mad too. But I don’t think they are going to. And personally I love the idea of “max” armor being “do a particular thing” to achieve and not just “set some gold on the counter and walk out”. If you want the best armor, do what it takes to get the best armor.

And I will repeat. IF they do intend to release other rarities (other than Ascended) then I will jump right on the bandwagon with the rest of you. But for now, I’m treating it like Ascended is part of the base rarity scale. Again, it came out 3 months into the game. I’m not worried.

Raine.1394:

Mackdose.6504:

Raine.1394:

For many a gear grind is the opposite of fun. They realize that when all players hop off the gear treadmill they are at the same relative power to each other as they were when they hopped on. Meanwhile the environment has attained the new power level as well so they are at the same power relative to the environment as they were before the new tier of gear. Nothing has changed. No one has gone anywhere. They have just expended in-game time and effort to keep up with the stat progression. This is an example of a forced grind. A forced grind is one you must do to continue playing the game. Examples are pretty much all other MMO’s that have vertical progression.

You do realize that you’re arguing a net gain of zero in both vertical and horizontal models, right?

Horizontal: no progression in stats, completing content for skins, zero relative gain.
Vertical: Small progression in stats, still completing content for skins, zero relative gain.

So what point exactly are you trying to make here?

With vertical progression there is a forced grind required in order to continue playing the game. No matter how low the power curve there will be a point at which you need to hop on the treadmill if you want to continue playing the game.

But that’s demonstrably false in this game thus far. You can’t just insert your experience from previous games’ vertical progression into this one and state it as an inevitable fact. You’re going to need some evidence to support this statement, and thus far you’ve provided nothing but rhetoric.

You also haven’t addressed my point that horizontal and vertical are both a relative net gain of zero when it comes to perceived “progression.” Meaning that you can’t discount vertical progression with a “there’s no real progression” argument.

Mackdose.6504:

Raine.1394:

With vertical progression there is a forced grind required in order to continue playing the game. No matter how low the power curve there will be a point at which you need to hop on the treadmill if you want to continue playing the game.

But that’s demonstrably false in this game thus far. You can’t just insert your experience from previous games’ vertical progression into this one and state it as an inevitable fact. You’re going to need some evidence to support this statement, and thus far you’ve provided nothing but rhetoric.

How about the fact that Ascended items are only obtained via the Fractals, forcing players to fight there in order to obtain them? Sounds like a forced grind to me. And while I have a lot of fun with Fractals, there’s no question that it’s a grind. You’re obligated to play it to obtain items that show up nowhere else.

This complaint is precisely why the devs stated that they are going to add Ascended items elsewhere in the game, because of how badly botched the initial release was and how it forced their players to grind one piece of content and nothing else.

And yet even in Fractals there’s already a hard limit starting to emerge on player ability and Agony Resistance, making it insurmountable without….you guessed it….more Ascended items to grant even more Agony Resistance. Yes, it’s currently only applied to Fractals which means it won’t affect most other PvE content, but if you honestly expect this to remain the case forever, then I’m afraid you’re being rather naive. This mechanic was only introduced so that they could “encourage” players to grind for these items, there’s no way that Agony will remain applicable only to the Fractals if they wish to continue pushing this new tier of items on us as the new top gear. In fact, I wouldn’t be that shocked if the dev team revamped the older dungeons to have Agony as well.

So yeah, I’d agree with anyone claiming that Ascended items are an indication of the game’s future in vertical progression: needing to grind different areas of content in order to keep on top of the gear curve. And when you’re being forced to play in certain areas, that keeps you from playing the game the way you want to play it. It’s honestly quite fair for people to ‘rebel’ against that, even if it’s potentially an overreaction.

Mackdose.6504:

Raine.1394:

Mackdose.6504:

Raine.1394:

For many a gear grind is the opposite of fun. They realize that when all players hop off the gear treadmill they are at the same relative power to each other as they were when they hopped on. Meanwhile the environment has attained the new power level as well so they are at the same power relative to the environment as they were before the new tier of gear. Nothing has changed. No one has gone anywhere. They have just expended in-game time and effort to keep up with the stat progression. This is an example of a forced grind. A forced grind is one you must do to continue playing the game. Examples are pretty much all other MMO’s that have vertical progression.

You do realize that you’re arguing a net gain of zero in both vertical and horizontal models, right?

Horizontal: no progression in stats, completing content for skins, zero relative gain.
Vertical: Small progression in stats, still completing content for skins, zero relative gain.

So what point exactly are you trying to make here?

With vertical progression there is a forced grind required in order to continue playing the game. No matter how low the power curve there will be a point at which you need to hop on the treadmill if you want to continue playing the game.

But that’s demonstrably false in this game thus far. You can’t just insert your experience from previous games’ vertical progression into this one and state it as an inevitable fact. You’re going to need some evidence to support this statement, and thus far you’ve provided nothing but rhetoric.

You also haven’t addressed my point that horizontal and vertical are both a relative net gain of zero when it comes to perceived “progression.” Meaning that you can’t discount vertical progression with a “there’s no real progression” argument.

I addressed your point by noting that though there is a zero net gain with both vertical and horizontal progression, vertical progression requires a forced grind to continue playing the game. Just reread my post—the point I made is the distinction you asked for previously in terms of my point.

You are correct that there has not been much vertical progression in the game thus far. They have only introduced three pieces. The issue is really not Ascended gear it is vertical progression. What we learned from the AMA was that moving forward we would have vertical progression with a low power curve. That is a fact and I can provide the quotes if you haven’t read the AMA. If you haven’t read it you really should.

What is the vertical progression that they promised? I don’t need to reference this game or any previous game. It is a well-defined concept that is understood in game design theory, is employed in other MMO’s and now has found a home in GW2.

Vertical progression can be described by an integer series 1, 2, 3, 4, 5,…n, where each integer represents a new tier of gear with a corresponding higher power level. Again, they said that we would have vertical progression with a low power curve. Vertical progression progresses by periodically increasing the power level of players, usually through stats on gear. Vertical progression doesn’t progress by stopping. It progresses by progressing. Again, that’s simply its definition.

This is what people have a problem with. It’s not Ascended gear that was said to have been present at release. The problem is vertical progression. I would suggest you watch the video from extra credits. It does a good job of describing vertical progression itself without a specific game context, though it does use examples from games. Vertical progression is not a problem in itself, it’s fine for those who like gear grinds. But GW2 was to be a different MMO, Anet didn’t make grindy games. We have a problem with vertical progression in a game that was promised to be anything but.

@Mackdose

The very fact that you have to go to the fractals to get drops, you have to go to fractals to get ascended items so far is part of my point. They’ve already begun this process to say that they might not continue it is naive at best and to say that this problem doesn’t exist is completely false. GW2’s current design (post launch mind started about a month after launch to those of us paying attention) limits rewards for open world events but allows them to flow normally (barring any DR bugs or loot drop issues with accounts) limits gameplay via a lack of reward system that basically is so bad that new players who didn’t play the first month and thus didn’t have access to the initial loot tables to buy gold to gear their main once they reach level 80. Unless of course you think it’s normal to have to run endless fractal runs just to get enough gold to buy the exotics one needs? And when I say gear I mean everything down to multiple weapons for the classes that use them, runes, sigils, jewelry all exotic. Imagine how expensive that might be for ascended if they go down the gold path with that? It’s no theory it’s happening right now in TP. The evidence is there.

It’s easily the power creep scenario with ascended as the next step, whether you believe it’s true or not.

critickitten.1498:

How about the fact that Ascended items are only obtained via the Fractals, forcing players to fight there in order to obtain them? Sounds like a forced grind to me. And while I have a lot of fun with Fractals, there’s no question that it’s a grind. You’re obligated to play it to obtain items that show up nowhere else.

This complaint is precisely why the devs stated that they are going to add Ascended items elsewhere in the game, because of how badly botched the initial release was and how it forced their players to grind one piece of content and nothing else.

And yet even in Fractals there’s already a hard limit starting to emerge on player ability and Agony Resistance, making it insurmountable without….you guessed it….more Ascended items to grant even more Agony Resistance. Yes, it’s currently only applied to Fractals which means it won’t affect most other PvE content, but if you honestly expect this to remain the case forever, then I’m afraid you’re being rather naive. This mechanic was only introduced so that they could “encourage” players to grind for these items, there’s no way that Agony will remain applicable only to the Fractals if they wish to continue pushing this new tier of items on us as the new top gear. In fact, I wouldn’t be that shocked if the dev team revamped the older dungeons to have Agony as well.

So yeah, I’d agree with anyone claiming that Ascended items are an indication of the game’s future in vertical progression: needing to grind different areas of content in order to keep on top of the gear curve. And when you’re being forced to play in certain areas, that keeps you from playing the game the way you want to play it. It’s honestly quite fair for people to ‘rebel’ against that, even if it’s potentially an overreaction.

1. Ascended items don’t grant agony resistance, infusions do. Get your facts straight.
2. To quote Lindsay Murdock: “We designed the process of getting Legendary gear to be a long term goal, but players were ready to start on that path much sooner than we expected and were becoming frustrated with a lack of personal progression.” – I’m pretty sure “grinding for gear” wasn’t the intention. Other players in this thread (which you didn’t read, clearly) didn’t have a problem acquiring the gear.
3. No one needs infused gear to see all of the content in FoTM, therefore grinding the dungeon is optional. You’re only “forced” to “grind” (I prefer the term “play”) the content if you absolutely must reach the pinnacle of gear. This is a self-imposed, not a game-imposed problem.

Read my other posts in the thread for more on why the “gear treadmill” is more or less irrelevant to anyone who enjoys playing the game for fun as opposed to playing the game to increase their ego.

tigirius.9014:

@Mackdose

The very fact that you have to go to the fractals to get drops, you have to go to fractals to get ascended items so far is part of my point. They’ve already begun this process to say that they might not continue it is naive at best and to say that this problem doesn’t exist is completely false. GW2’s current design (post launch mind started about a month after launch to those of us paying attention) limits rewards for open world events but allows them to flow normally (barring any DR bugs or loot drop issues with accounts) limits gameplay via a lack of reward system that basically is so bad that new players who didn’t play the first month and thus didn’t have access to the initial loot tables to buy gold to gear their main once they reach level 80. Unless of course you think it’s normal to have to run endless fractal runs just to get enough gold to buy the exotics one needs? And when I say gear I mean everything down to multiple weapons for the classes that use them, runes, sigils, jewelry all exotic. Imagine how expensive that might be for ascended if they go down the gold path with that? It’s no theory it’s happening right now in TP. The evidence is there.

It’s easily the power creep scenario with ascended as the next step, whether you believe it’s true or not.

Good thing that there are more ways to get those items than buying them from the TP. Or did you forget that?

Raine.1394:

This is what people have a problem with. It’s not Ascended gear that was said to have been present at release. The problem is vertical progression. I would suggest you watch the video from extra credits. It does a good job of describing vertical progression itself without a specific game context, though it does use examples from games. Vertical progression is not a problem in itself, it’s fine for those who like gear grinds. But GW2 was to be a different MMO, Anet didn’t make grindy games. We have a problem with vertical progression in a game that was promised to be anything but.

So you honestly believe that there is no compromise between the two? I’d say you’re wrong, and I have explained why you’re wrong.

Your premise that there’s a point where you need certain stats to continue playing the game is such a large elephant in the room that ArenaNet has basically said:

“Look, there are people who like having more stats to go for, and there are people who don’t want to fall behind because they decided to have a life. We’re striking the middle ground where there’s both an item goal for the first type of player, while making sure that the content we produce is seen by all players, max gear or not.”

This is what you’re not seeing. There is no point where exotics won’t do the job, and by the time there is, ascended gear will probably be easy enough to acquire through not grinding the same instance. That’s the point of the low power curve.

Maybe you should leave game design challenges to game designers, instead of shouting about vertical progression as if there’s only one outcome.

Mackdose.6504:

Ascended items don’t grant agony resistance, infusions do. Get your facts straight.

I do have my facts straight, you’re simply trying to fabricate a difference where none exists.

Yes, infusions grant AR. And only Ascended items can be infused (and Legendaries show no indication of being changed to add AR, meaning this is likely to be a trait exclusive to Ascended gear). Ergo, only Ascended items have AR.

This is simple deductive reasoning, and you’re trying to pretend there’s a difference between infusions granting AR (a feature exclusive to Ascended items) and Ascended items themselves granting AR. There isn’t. If it’s only accessible from those items, then it’s fair to claim that a player must grind for those items in order to get AR. Don’t fabricate strawmen, please.

And besides, you’re wrong anyways, in that Ascended items can become infused themselves via unique crafting recipes in the Mystic Forge, and thus perform the duty of providing AR, with or without any offensive/defensive/omni infusion slotted into them.

To quote Lindsay Murdock: “We designed the process of getting Legendary gear to be a long term goal, but players were ready to start on that path much sooner than we expected and were becoming frustrated with a lack of personal progression.” – I’m pretty sure “grinding for gear” wasn’t the intention. Other players in this thread (which you didn’t read, clearly) didn’t have a problem acquiring the gear.

It’s not a matter of how “tough” it is, which you clearly don’t understand. It’s never about how “tough” it is, no one is complaining about the difficulty required. It’s the concept itself that’s flawed and that’s what people hate.

You are obligated to grind in one place, and only one place, to obtain them. Which is currently an undeniable fact. That goes directly against their initial promises for the game not to be “forced to grind dungeons at endgame”, a fact they themselves have admitted and have said they intend to fix.

And they will play a role in combat, especially WvW, just as every other item set did. The only way you can claim otherwise is if you actually believe that a Lvl 1 player in WvW upscaled to 80 is exactly as strong as a Lvl 80….and I have news for you, their power levels aren’t actually all that close. Scaling is designed to provide everyone an equal opportunity, but the gear you wear makes a significant difference in your final scaled strength, and higher tiers of gear (as well as higher leveled players) benefit from better scaling in both directions. This is precisely why players fought so hard to get Exotic gear right away….and why they protested so vehemently when a new gear set was already being released a mere three months into the game’s release.

Yes, some people grinded to the top, hit a wall, and complained about it. But those people were not the majority, and never will be. If GW2 intends to cater to a crowd that it can’t possibly cater to (because the grinders will always obtain the new gear far faster than you can make it), everyone else will be left behind eventually.

No one needs infused gear to see all of the content in FoTM, therefore grinding the dungeon is optional. You’re only “forced” to “grind” (I prefer the term “play”) the content if you absolutely must reach the pinnacle of gear. This is a self-imposed, not a game-imposed problem.

I prefer not mincing words, myself. A “grind” is simply defined as repetition of the same task over and over, usually for the sake of gear, which is exactly what this is.

And again, the only way you can believe this to be a “self-imposed” problem is if you actually think that those extra stats don’t mean anything. In which case, you don’t understand how the game works at all.

Read my other posts in the thread for more on why the “gear treadmill” is more or less irrelevant to anyone who enjoys playing the game for fun as opposed to playing the game to increase their ego.

I’m not going to go read your asserted opinions because you’re wrong. It’s not like vertical progression is a newfangled concept, years of other MMOs have proven that a vertical progression system always affects the game. Especially in PvP, which is very bad for a game that proudly proclaims it intends to make its PvP into an “e-sport”.

I’ve played several other MMOs in the past and while I agree that the effects in PvE are significantly lessened, that isn’t (and never was) what people were complaining about in the first place. People aren’t mad about Ascended gear because of PvE, they’re worried about the effects on sPvP and WvW, because in both cases, having stronger gear with less scaling penalties attached means you will be stronger than the other guys out there. And that is a problem for a game that wants to flaunt its combat system as entirely skill-based.

Mackdose.6504:

tigirius.9014:

@Mackdose

The very fact that you have to go to the fractals to get drops, you have to go to fractals to get ascended items so far is part of my point. They’ve already begun this process to say that they might not continue it is naive at best and to say that this problem doesn’t exist is completely false. GW2’s current design (post launch mind started about a month after launch to those of us paying attention) limits rewards for open world events but allows them to flow normally (barring any DR bugs or loot drop issues with accounts) limits gameplay via a lack of reward system that basically is so bad that new players who didn’t play the first month and thus didn’t have access to the initial loot tables to buy gold to gear their main once they reach level 80. Unless of course you think it’s normal to have to run endless fractal runs just to get enough gold to buy the exotics one needs? And when I say gear I mean everything down to multiple weapons for the classes that use them, runes, sigils, jewelry all exotic. Imagine how expensive that might be for ascended if they go down the gold path with that? It’s no theory it’s happening right now in TP. The evidence is there.

It’s easily the power creep scenario with ascended as the next step, whether you believe it’s true or not.

Good thing that there are more ways to get those items than buying them from the TP. Or did you forget that?

Which just supported my gold theory right there. Now do you understand what I mean? If you’ve not played since day 1 you don’t get the gold needed to handle the new pricing for things so where do you go for that pricing? You buy gems for gold, (or other methods I won’t mention) but the concept is the same. Get more people to be forced to buy gold to get their character geared.

That’s the biggest issue this game has right now the complete monetization of the power creep. Unless they change that they will have more and more players who don’t like extreme farming hit that wall.

critickitten.1498:

You are obligated to grind in one place, and only one place, to obtain them. Which is currently an undeniable fact. That goes directly against their initial promises for the game not to be “forced to grind dungeons at endgame”, a fact they themselves have admitted and have said they intend to fix.

And they will play a role in combat, especially WvW, just as every other item set did. The only way you can claim otherwise is if you actually believe that a Lvl 1 player in WvW upscaled to 80 is exactly as strong as a Lvl 80….and I have news for you, their power levels aren’t actually all that close. Scaling is designed to provide everyone an equal opportunity, but the gear you wear makes a significant difference in your final scaled strength, and higher tiers of gear (as well as higher leveled players) benefit from better scaling in both directions. This is precisely why players fought so hard to get Exotic gear right away….and why they protested so vehemently when a new gear set was already being released a mere three months into the game’s release.

Yes, some people grinded to the top, hit a wall, and complained about it. But those people were not the majority, and never will be. If GW2 intends to cater to a crowd that it can’t possibly cater to (because the grinders will always obtain the new gear far faster than you can make it), everyone else will be left behind eventually.

I prefer not mincing words, myself. A “grind” is simply defined as repetition of the same task over and over, usually for the sake of gear, which is exactly what this is.

And again, the only way you can believe this to be a “self-imposed” problem is if you actually think that those extra stats don’t mean anything. In which case, you don’t understand how the game works at all.

I’m not going to go read your asserted opinions because you’re wrong. It’s not like vertical progression is a newfangled concept, years of other MMOs have proven that a vertical progression system always affects the game. Especially in PvP, which is very bad for a game that proudly proclaims it intends to make its PvP into an “e-sport”.

I’ve played several other MMOs in the past and while I agree that the effects in PvE are significantly lessened, that isn’t (and never was) what people were complaining about in the first place. People aren’t mad about Ascended gear because of PvE, they’re worried about the effects on sPvP and WvW, because in both cases, having stronger gear with less scaling penalties attached means you will be stronger than the other guys out there. And that is a problem for a game that wants to flaunt its combat system as entirely skill-based.

Since you decide to want to talk about what’s “currently” in game, let’s talk about how those minor accessories equate to about 1% more relative stat effectiveness.

Yeah. Let that sink in.

I also addressed that vertical progression in this game has more than one outcome. Iteration also isn’t a newfangled concept, and the way vertical progression is handled isn’t set in stone.

Also, this is a non-issue for sPvP.

Mackdose.6504:

Raine.1394:

This is what people have a problem with. It’s not Ascended gear that was said to have been present at release. The problem is vertical progression. I would suggest you watch the video from extra credits. It does a good job of describing vertical progression itself without a specific game context, though it does use examples from games. Vertical progression is not a problem in itself, it’s fine for those who like gear grinds. But GW2 was to be a different MMO, Anet didn’t make grindy games. We have a problem with vertical progression in a game that was promised to be anything but.

So you honestly believe that there is no compromise between the two? I’d say you’re wrong, and I have explained why you’re wrong.

Your premise that there’s a point where you need certain stats to continue playing the game is such a large elephant in the room that ArenaNet has basically said:

“Look, there are people who like having more stats to go for, and there are people who don’t want to fall behind because they decided to have a life. We’re striking the middle ground where there’s both an item goal for the first type of player, while making sure that the content we produce is seen by all players, max gear or not.”

This is what you’re not seeing. There is no point where exotics won’t do the job, and by the time there is, ascended gear will probably be easy enough to acquire through not grinding the same instance. That’s the point of the low power curve.

Maybe you should leave game design challenges to game designers, instead of shouting about vertical progression as if there’s only one outcome.

You are seriously accusing me of not seeing something they didn’t say? Frankly, I’m nonplussed on that one—I don’t know how to respond. I was dealing simply with the facts that we have on the table. We know what vertical progression is and we know that Anet said that there would be vertical progression moving forward.

I really enjoyed the your request to leave game design challenges to game designers instead of shouting about vertical progression. Drat I thought I left the capslock off. My mistake I guess. Look, what we are dealing with is truly simple and straightforward. We know what vertical progression is by its definition. We also know that vertical progression is now a part of GW2. There are people that are unhappy about it as they bought GW2 believing that the forced grind stopped with level 80 exotics.

Edit: And, in terms of explaining why I’m wrong on an assertion I’ve made, the way you do that is to quote an assertion that I’ve made and then demonstrate why it is wrong. I never even said anything about compromises between horizontal and vertical progression. This game is is like ping pong. I make an assertion, then you take issue with it. Quote my assertion, then demonstrate that it is wrong. Please stop making up stuff and calling me wrong on it.

Raine.1394:

You are seriously accusing me of not seeing something they didn’t say? Frankly, I’m nonplussed on that one—I don’t know how to respond. I was dealing simply with the facts that we have on the table. We know what vertical progression is and we know that Anet said that there would be vertical progression moving forward.

I really enjoyed the your request to leave game design challenges to game designers instead of shouting about vertical progression. Drat I thought I left the capslock off. My mistake I guess. Look, what we are dealing with is truly simple and straightforward. We know what vertical progression is by its definition. We also know that vertical progression is now a part of GW2. There are people that are unhappy about it as they bought GW2 believing that the forced grind stopped with level 80 exotics.

There is no point where exotics won’t do the job, and by the time there is, ascended gear will probably be easy enough to acquire through not grinding the same instance. That’s the point of the low power curve.

There’s the facts on the table.

I’ve read “forced,” “obligated,” “required,” “mandatory,” and a few other words echoing that sentiment about ascended gear.

The fact is, unless you are a gear grinder who must have the best gear available at any given time, ascended gear in it’s current incarnation is irrelevant.

It’s 1% more effective than my current set of gear.

What it is going to be in the future remains to be seen, but if the current incarnation is anything to go by, ascended gear’s existence won’t impede on my ability to see the content ArenaNet has made in any part of the game. Period.

That basically destroys any “mandatory grind” right there.

If you think you’re being “forced” to play the game to get gear that’s irrelevant to your effectiveness outside of a single small part of the game, you should re-evaluate why you’re playing in the first place.

Mackdose.6504:

Since you decide to want to talk about what’s “currently” in game, let’s talk about how those minor accessories equate to about 1% more relative stat effectiveness.

Yeah. Let that sink in.

Er, actually I very directly state that I already know the devs have said they intend to expand where Ascended items can be found. My point is that they said this AFTER they rolled out the Ascended tier, which means they honestly didn’t think it’d be a problem until people complained about it in droves.

Are you quite sure you read my post, or did you just skim it and are trying to summarize my points in an incorrect fashion?

And I love how you talk about it like that. It’s only 1%.

A 1% increase in the population of the United States would be like if 3.15 million people suddenly dropped out of the sky. 1% is a pretty significant margin, and it only gets worse as the numbers get bigger. That’s how percentages work, after all.

Oh, and just to give you another quick lesson in numbers, let’s set up a scenario. Two warriors in full Berserker gear, specced to 30 in Power/Precision trait trees. One will wear Ascended rings, and the other Exotic, otherwise they’re stacked with full Exotic gear. This means that both players have this stuff.

Base Stats: 916 Power, 916 Precision, 916 Toughness, 916 Vitality
Weapon: 995-1100 Base Damage, 179 Power, 128 Precision, 9% Critical Damage
Traits: 300 Power, 300 Precision
Armor (sans upgrades): 968 Base Defense, 315 Power, 224 Precision, 16% Critical Damage
Accessories/Amulets (sans upgrades): 202 Power, 144 Precision, and 11% Critical Damage
Final Stats: 1912 Power, 1712 Precision (including 36% Critical Damage), 916 Toughness, 916 Vitality, 995-1100 Base Damage, 968 Base Defense

Ascended Back/Rings (without infusions): 262 Power, 171 Precision, 21% Critical Damage
Exotic Back/Rings (+rubies): 231 Power, 157 Precision, 16% Critical Damage

The Ascended Player will be dealing 1047.5 * (1912+262) / (916+968) = 1209 damage per strike on any skill with a modifier of 1, and will have a [4+(1712+171-916)/21] = 50% chance to deal (150+36+21) = 207% damage.

The Exotic Player will be dealing 1047.5 * (1912+231) / (916+968) = 1192 damage per strike on any skill with a modifier of 1, and will have a [4+(1712+157-916)/21] = 49% chance to deal (150+36+16) = 202% damage.

So as long as you look at the numbers in the most shallow sense, yes, the Ascended player is dealing only about 1.4% more damage per strike. Of course, he’s also getting criticals 1% more often and dealing 5% more critical damage when he does. So in actuality….

Ascended Average: 1209*(1-0.5) + 1209*0.5*2.07 = 1855.8 average damage
Exotic Average: 1209*(1-0.49) + 1209*0.49*2.02 = 1813.3 average damage

Which means that you’re actually dealing 2.3% more damage on average. And this is with only three ascended items in the game….and they’re among the smallest stat-boosting items out of all the equipment slots in the game! People have already done estimations of probable stats on ascended weapons and gear, and estimates suggest that it may increase your efficiency in combat by as much as 20% overall.

If you really think that won’t be a factor in WvW, then we have nothing further to discuss, as I think the math speaks for itself.

I also addressed that vertical progression in this game has more than one outcome. Iteration also isn’t a newfangled concept, and the way vertical progression is handled isn’t set in stone.

Can you provide examples of a game where vertical progression did not lead to a system whereby the players were ‘encouraged’ to farm up new items on a regular basis? Because I don’t think any such game exists.

When you continue to push the upper bounds regarding the max stats available to a player, you automatically encourage players to grind for that gear in order to remain optimally competitive in any PvP scenario. That is why it’s called “vertical progression”: it’s “progression” that drives the power levels of the game ever upwards, without end, eventually obligating a player to change gear in order to avoid falling behind. It’s already starting in Fractals, where players are hitting a difficulty wall and can’t progress further until more Ascended gear is introduced. When your game is designed such that you actually can’t complete content at all without grinding for new gear, that’s how power creep gets in.

Also, this is a non-issue for sPvP.

We’ll see. sPvP was designed with the intentions of everyone being at max power and thus equal, after all….but you may notice that everyone is “only” wielding Exotic gear. It’s not out of the question that this may change in the future, in exchange for very large numbers of Badges of Honor. I hope it doesn’t, because it would have the potential to ruin sPvP….but this wouldn’t be the first game to make that error.

you can put the skins from your current nice looking weapons onto the crafted ascended weapons that will eventually be craftable.