Guild Wars 2

AndrewMcLeod.3857:

This is something that existed prior to ascended gear, and was something that we saw happen all the time in GW1, even without any sort of gear progression. Some players, typically people who play the game a lot, tend to only want to play with other players that play like them. They require some sort of proof to get into their party, whether it be displaying your Lightbringer Title, equipping or linking some type of gear, or using some other method of showing that you have already done and are experienced with the content. While ascended gear might be the new excuse, this behavior happens regardless.

While this is not really something that we want to encourage, players do have the choice to play the game in the way they want. We can’t force those players to be all-inclusive in who they invite to the parties they create, and to be honest, doing so would probably make people even more unhappy than they are now, and lead to a lot of undesirable behavior.

You know I was watching a movie where a politician had an affair and then told everyone at a press meeting that this kind of behavior had to stop but unfortunately he couldn’t control the actions of others.

But doing the right thing or keeping your word, starts at the beginning of the day, not the 5th hour. Or taking a deflect and blame the players stance. Gear grinders didn’t make you neglect pvp and ninja in gear grinding overnight, you did that yourself.

AndrewMcLeod.3857:

This is something that existed prior to ascended gear, and was something that we saw happen all the time in GW1, even without any sort of gear progression. Some players, typically people who play the game a lot, tend to only want to play with other players that play like them. They require some sort of proof to get into their party, whether it be displaying your Lightbringer Title, equipping or linking some type of gear, or using some other method of showing that you have already done and are experienced with the content. While ascended gear might be the new excuse, this behavior happens regardless.

While this is not really something that we want to encourage, players do have the choice to play the game in the way they want. We can’t force those players to be all-inclusive in who they invite to the parties they create, and to be honest, doing so would probably make people even more unhappy than they are now, and lead to a lot of undesirable behavior.

Those things you mentioned were artificial barriers… Agony is a real barrier. You know this.

It’s almost like these guys are talking to the community like we’re dumb, or at best, not as smart as them.

Pissing on us and calling it rain.

Why is anyone surprised by this. Anet encouraged it with this patch.

AndrewMcLeod.3857:

Derk.3189:

Stormleaf.1769:

Erulogos.2591:

Quoting you both as you both make the same argument, essentially, and miss the same issue.

The issue is not with -current- content. No Ascended gear is required to finish every dungeon and kill every boss currently walking Tyria.

The issue is with -future- content. It was stated, when Ascended gear was announced, that Agony (and thus Agony resist) was something that would be involved in content going forward. It was not stated, one way or the other, if it would be required to even attempt future content, and it therefore becomes a simple question: grind Ascended and Agony resist now, so you are ready for the new content no matter what, or wait and see if it will be required, and hope that, if it is, enough other people waited that you can get groups to grind it out.

It is true that as of this moment in time, the grind heavy gear is not required to see any of the content in the game. But we don’t know when or if it will be, and Anet has not said one way or the other. A lot of folks saying it is required are basically taking the cautious path, assuming it will be and preparing for the worst.

The issue with this is that ArenaNet could have easily made this content require Agony resistance from the beginning as well, by making it some Mystic Forge thing and introducing Agony at fractal level 1. They didn’t; heck, they even made it so low levels can participate. Exotics aren’t even a requirement for the early difficulty levels. If they didn’t do it now, why do you think they’re magically going to start doing it in the future? None of the content in GW2 has been restricted like that. There is zero indication of ArenaNet ever restricting content like that, and it’s simply not helpful to base your argument on an assumption that they’ll magically start doing it.

AHHAHA You really think they did that for the players? Its just there to draw out the content, an additional carrot on another stick. Oh you want to see what agony is like? Hit me up 10 levels.

The Agony mechanic wasn’t introduced at the start of the dungeon so that everybody can experience the content. While one of the goals of the Fractals of the Mists dungeon was to provide some difficult content for players looking for a challenge, we also wanted the dungeon to be available for everybody to experience. While getting far into the dungeon requires agony resistance from ascended gear, the content was designed to provide challenging content, and to allow players to choose what difficulty they wanted to play at.

As for ascended gear, to reiterate what Chris has said (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/A-message-from-our-Studio-Design-Director-Chris-Whiteside), it’s not intended as a treadmill, but rather as a tier of rewards that can help bridge the gap between Exotics (a few hours of effort to acquire a piece) and Legendaries (hundreds of hours of effort to acquire one). They’re currently only available in the Fractals of the Mist Dungeon, but we’re going to be adding new ways to acquire them, both inside of WvW as well as elsewhere in PvE.

I felt it was necessary to revisit this. Where you say, it’s not intended as a treadmill, but rather as a tier of rewards, isn’t that the same thing? This is what I’m perceiving to be doublespeak. Nowhere have seen direction refutation or accounting for three simple facts:

1. The gap between exotics was cosmetic
2. A new gap is being created with Ascended items and legendary items over Exotic
3. You are saying this gap is one of time and not statistics despite the proof that it is in fact statistically better.

So let’s break these three facts.

First, legendary weapons were initially conceived to allow players something to progress towards. In no way were they better than exotic, save for their appearance and time investment.

Second, there is no reason the infusion can’t take place on existing items. Irrespective of that, it was stated elsewhere that you don’t players to be exclusive. What do you think this will do?

Third, and most importantly, why has this not been officially addressed? Why has no one from ArenaNet addressed the technical difference and the impact it has on the community and its relation to the content?

That being said, I am happy to see that these items will be acquirable elsewhere, eventually.

AndrewMcLeod.3857:

This is something that existed prior to ascended gear, and was something that we saw happen all the time in GW1, even without any sort of gear progression. Some players, typically people who play the game a lot, tend to only want to play with other players that play like them. They require some sort of proof to get into their party, whether it be displaying your Lightbringer Title, equipping or linking some type of gear, or using some other method of showing that you have already done and are experienced with the content. While ascended gear might be the new excuse, this behavior happens regardless.

While this is not really something that we want to encourage, players do have the choice to play the game in the way they want. We can’t force those players to be all-inclusive in who they invite to the parties they create, and to be honest, doing so would probably make people even more unhappy than they are now, and lead to a lot of undesirable behavior.

Then why add that mechanic?

I love how he actually comes here to answer questions and get’s nothing but attacks for actually doing so.

The gear treadmill has been here since the game launched. This thread is a prime example of it. “You need full 80 exotics to get into my party for this harder dungeon”.

All they did was add a new mechanic and a new tier of equipment above the existing top tier. Which by the way they never said was going to be the last one.

To everyone still complaining about something that’s obviously not going to change. Get the kitten over it and enjoy the game. Otherwise none of us want to hear your constant whimpering, whining, crying, or complaining.

Swarthy Avenger.3072:

Once I have full exotics, all you have listed is cosmetic.

I’m not interested in cosmetic progression.

I’ve said it many times this thread. I want my character to be better than it was when I logged in, when I log off.

Then GW2, as advertised (even promised in blogs/videos/interviews), is not the game for you, so why did you buy it?

There are many other MMOs that offer this, and make it clear that they offer it. Quite frankly, you have no right to ask for a gear treadmill in a game where the original mission statement was to -not- have a treadmill.

If you don’t like a game, don’t play it. Don’t try to force developers to change it you suit your needs. People here are angry because people that do want a treadmill (and it is FINE to want one in a game) or trying get it added to a game that was never supposed to have one.

Would you consider it acceptable if I bought WoW today, and started demanding that Blizzard remove the gear treadmill because I don’t like it?

I don’t play WoW because I know it has a treadmill, and I don’t like that. My solution to WoW’s “treamill issue” (issue being my dislike of it)…I don’t play it.

And to bring up something you mentioned earlier in the thread about EVE Online having horizontal progression….I don’t know if that was trolling or you’re trying to make examples with a game you never played, but it’s far from the truth. It takes years to “max” a character in that game, and there are ships and equipment that most players will never obtain that give considerable advantages over the “standard” ships/equipment.

mrstealth.6701:

Swarthy Avenger.3072:

Once I have full exotics, all you have listed is cosmetic.

I’m not interested in cosmetic progression.

I’ve said it many times this thread. I want my character to be better than it was when I logged in, when I log off.

Then GW2, as advertised (even promised in blogs/videos/interviews), is not the game for you, so why did you buy it?

There are many other MMOs that offer this, and make it clear that they offer it. Quite frankly, you have no right to ask for a gear treadmill in a game where the original mission statement was to -not- have a treadmill.

If you don’t like a game, don’t play it. Don’t try to force developers to change it you suit your needs. People here are angry because people that do want a treadmill (and it is FINE to want one in a game) or trying get it added to a game that was never supposed to have one.

Would you consider it acceptable if I bought WoW today, and started demanding that Blizzard remove the gear treadmill because I don’t like it?

I don’t play WoW because I know it has a treadmill, and I don’t like that. My solution to WoW’s “treamill issue” (issue being my dislike of it)…I don’t play it.

And to bring up something you mentioned earlier in the thread about EVE Online having horizontal progression….I don’t know if that was trolling or you’re trying to make examples with a game you never played, but it’s far from the truth. It takes years to “max” a character in that game, and there are ships and equipment that most players will never obtain that give considerable advantages over the “standard” ships/equipment.

And you sir have no right to tell him what he has the right to do.

Loosifah.4739:

mrstealth.6701:

Swarthy Avenger.3072:

Once I have full exotics, all you have listed is cosmetic.

I’m not interested in cosmetic progression.

I’ve said it many times this thread. I want my character to be better than it was when I logged in, when I log off.

Then GW2, as advertised (even promised in blogs/videos/interviews), is not the game for you, so why did you buy it?

There are many other MMOs that offer this, and make it clear that they offer it. Quite frankly, you have no right to ask for a gear treadmill in a game where the original mission statement was to -not- have a treadmill.

If you don’t like a game, don’t play it. Don’t try to force developers to change it you suit your needs. People here are angry because people that do want a treadmill (and it is FINE to want one in a game) or trying get it added to a game that was never supposed to have one.

Would you consider it acceptable if I bought WoW today, and started demanding that Blizzard remove the gear treadmill because I don’t like it?

I don’t play WoW because I know it has a treadmill, and I don’t like that. My solution to WoW’s “treamill issue” (issue being my dislike of it)…I don’t play it.

And to bring up something you mentioned earlier in the thread about EVE Online having horizontal progression….I don’t know if that was trolling or you’re trying to make examples with a game you never played, but it’s far from the truth. It takes years to “max” a character in that game, and there are ships and equipment that most players will never obtain that give considerable advantages over the “standard” ships/equipment.

And you sir have no right to tell him what he has the right to do.

I would agree with that in almost any situation. But in this situation, asking for a gear treadmill is asking the developers to go back on their promises, their own mission statements, and the basis on which many of us purchased GW2.

Asking someone to back out on a promise (whether it be an advertised aspect of a game or a legally binding contract) is far from acceptable, especially when that promise was made clear before purchase so those -not- liking it could easily avoid the product.

I would have no right to buy a Ford Mustang then go back to the dealer the next day demanding that I be given a 4 door, 4-wheel drive Mustang. If I wanted a 4-door, 4wd car…I should have purchased one that was advertised as such.

it’s not intended as a treadmill, but rather as a tier of rewards that can help bridge the gap between Exotics (a few hours of effort to acquire a piece) and Legendaries (hundreds of hours of effort to acquire one)

That’s a a bunch of mumbo jumbo. Calling something not a “treadmill” then indicating that the sole purpose is to make the effort take longer is completely bewildering.

Adding a mandatory stat with a passive effect that keeps you from dying outright…adds to the fun and challenge in the dungeon? How so? It sounds like a cheap gimmick that has absolutely nothing to do with skill, only grind tolerance.

I still fail to see how adding a single tier of equipment into a game that’s only 3 months old to add more abilities and mechanics to the game is adding a kitten treadmill.

Now I could see your point if they release another content update, with yet another tier above ascended. But I highly doubt they’re going to do that. Especially with the amount of crying that went on with this recent update.

Also you have to realize that not even half the amount of people you think were “crying for a treadmill” actually did so, right? I know that I didn’t; and neither did any of the dozens of people I personally know.

They’ve been making this update since they released the game; they may not have intended to release the new tier of equipment so soon; but it was going to happen eventually.

Loosifah.4739:

I love how he actually comes here to answer questions and get’s nothing but attacks for actually doing so.

The gear treadmill has been here since the game launched. This thread is a prime example of it. “You need full 80 exotics to get into my party for this harder dungeon”.

All they did was add a new mechanic and a new tier of equipment above the existing top tier. Which by the way they never said was going to be the last one.

To everyone still complaining about something that’s obviously not going to change. Get the kitten over it and enjoy the game. Otherwise none of us want to hear your constant whimpering, whining, crying, or complaining.

This is what they said in their Manifesto. No gear threadmill, max stat gear was already in place (exotics.) Then they went ahead and changed this because players complained, that there was no progression, no reason to stay, etc.

So why shouldn’t other players who do not want this change, complain to get the change reversed?

Only seems fair, that if ANET wants to cater to the crowd who wanted the change, also cater to the crowd who did not want it.

Falcon Night.4653:

Loosifah.4739:

I love how he actually comes here to answer questions and get’s nothing but attacks for actually doing so.

The gear treadmill has been here since the game launched. This thread is a prime example of it. “You need full 80 exotics to get into my party for this harder dungeon”.

All they did was add a new mechanic and a new tier of equipment above the existing top tier. Which by the way they never said was going to be the last one.

To everyone still complaining about something that’s obviously not going to change. Get the kitten over it and enjoy the game. Otherwise none of us want to hear your constant whimpering, whining, crying, or complaining.

This is what they said in their Manifesto. No gear threadmill, max stat gear was already in place (exotics.) Then they went ahead and changed this because players complained, that there was no progression, no reason to stay, etc.

So why shouldn’t other players who do not want this change, complain to get the change reversed?

Only seems fair, that if ANET wants to cater to the crowd who wanted the change, also cater to the crowd who did not want it.

Or they flat out lied to us with their ‘manifesto’ and just use ‘player complains’ as an argument.
It is fast to introduce such changes if it wasn’t planned from the start. Especially if formed by player complains.

Loosifah.4739:

Also you have to realize that not even half the amount of people you think were “crying for a treadmill” actually did so, right? I know that I didn’t; and neither did any of the dozens of people I personally know.

They’ve been making this update since they released the game; they may not have intended to release the new tier of equipment so soon; but it was going to happen eventually.

This is the one thing that does have me rather confused. There were people asking for a treadmill, but it wasn’t a huge amount of players. I have no clue where Anet got this idea that a gear treadmill was wanted by a large amount of the playerbase…this forum has gone a long way towards proving that it wasn’t wanted.

And according to their own statements, I don’t think this change has been in the works since release. It was mentioned in the Ascended gear blog that this move was a reaction to players acquiring exotic/legendary gear sooner than expected. Sure there are players that have exotic gear (I have it myself), but very few have Legendaries or even the higher rarity named items (Foefire/Volcanus/Visions of the Mist/etc). I’m perplexed as to why Anet is basing such a huge change on that small minority that already has “everything”.

They said max stat gear was in game(exotics). They NEVER said that exotics were going to always be top slot gear.

You don’t really think that 3 months after the game came out they looked at each other one weekend and said “Let’s code a new tier of equipment so all the gear progression players can be happy” do you? Do you know how much coding it takes to correctly implement a new tier of equipment? Do you honestly think they haven’t been coding this since the game launched and just holding it back until they were ready to release it?

What I’m thinking is they released it earlier than they expected to because of the complaints; but it was always coming.

Loosifah.4739:

They said max stat gear was in game(exotics). They NEVER said that exotics were going to always be top slot gear.

You don’t really think that 3 months after the game came out they looked at each other one weekend and said “Let’s code a new tier of equipment so all the gear progression players can be happy” do you? Do you know how much coding it takes to correctly implement a new tier of equipment? Do you honestly think they haven’t been coding this since the game launched and just holding it back until they were ready to release it?

What I’m thinking is they released it earlier than they expected to because of the complaints; but it was always coming.

Yes, they did. Do you even know what horizontal progression is?

How is Ascended gear horizontal progression?

Loosifah.4739:

I still fail to see how adding a single tier of equipment into a game that’s only 3 months old to add more abilities and mechanics to the game is adding a kitten treadmill.

Now I could see your point if they release another content update, with yet another tier above ascended. But I highly doubt they’re going to do that. Especially with the amount of crying that went on with this recent update.

Also you have to realize that not even half the amount of people you think were “crying for a treadmill” actually did so, right? I know that I didn’t; and neither did any of the dozens of people I personally know.

They’ve been making this update since they released the game; they may not have intended to release the new tier of equipment so soon; but it was going to happen eventually.

Then you don’t understand the game design principles we are working with. Why do you insist on joining the discussion?

Loosifah.4739:

They said max stat gear was in game(exotics). They NEVER said that exotics were going to always be top slot gear.

You don’t really think that 3 months after the game came out they looked at each other one weekend and said “Let’s code a new tier of equipment so all the gear progression players can be happy” do you? Do you know how much coding it takes to correctly implement a new tier of equipment? Do you honestly think they haven’t been coding this since the game launched and just holding it back until they were ready to release it?

What I’m thinking is they released it earlier than they expected to because of the complaints; but it was always coming.

Lol talking about how much coding it takes. Newsflash for you: I can do the coding for Ascended items in under 10 minutes, using only Ctrl, c, v, f, and the number keys.

AndrewMcLeod.3857:

While this is not really something that we want to encourage, players do have the choice to play the game in the way they want.

Then stop encouraging it please.

I think judging people by gear is perfectly fine. If you are a newer player with greens/rares instead of exotics, you should join either with other players who have that (there’s still loads around) or with guildies who know you have rares but like to help you out. Either way shouldn’t be too hard to do atm.

In fact I would like to see a way to inspect gear, even though that’s mainly to prevent people from running Magic Find (happened to me in fractals already, found out after 2 hours or so that 2 members had full MF sets).

Loosifah.4739:

They said max stat gear was in game(exotics). They NEVER said that exotics were going to always be top slot gear.

You don’t really think that 3 months after the game came out they looked at each other one weekend and said “Let’s code a new tier of equipment so all the gear progression players can be happy” do you? Do you know how much coding it takes to correctly implement a new tier of equipment? Do you honestly think they haven’t been coding this since the game launched and just holding it back until they were ready to release it?

What I’m thinking is they released it earlier than they expected to because of the complaints; but it was always coming.

Let’s look back on what they did say:

Legendaries will never be more powerful than exotics.

Max stat gear will always be easy to acquire.

Gear that requires grinding and lots of time to acquire will differ only cosmetically.

Players will never be forced to do one thing to acquire the best gear.

Content will never be dependent on having certain gear.

Loosifah.4739:

I still fail to see how adding a single tier of equipment into a game that’s only 3 months old to add more abilities and mechanics to the game is adding a kitten treadmill.

Now I could see your point if they release another content update, with yet another tier above ascended. But I highly doubt they’re going to do that. Especially with the amount of crying that went on with this recent update.

Also you have to realize that not even half the amount of people you think were “crying for a treadmill” actually did so, right? I know that I didn’t; and neither did any of the dozens of people I personally know.

They’ve been making this update since they released the game; they may not have intended to release the new tier of equipment so soon; but it was going to happen eventually.

It’s ONLY been 3 months and most casual players don’t even have full exotics. Yet we already have a new tier of gear coming out that’s better and takes a stupid amount of time to grind out. It is most certainly a treadmill since it is purely designed to keep players working towards new gear. The grinding is designed to keep people playing the game(treadmill) and the gear is a carrot to get them to grind.

I bought this game specifically because it wasn’t supposed to be a gear grind. The best stat gear was supposed to be easy to get but not great looking. The harder to get items were to have awesome skins. Well turns out that even exotic gear with proper stats isn’t easy to get, you need to grind either mats, karma, badges, or dungeons to get it. You’re forced into grinding things you don’t want to for certain stats as well(IE badges or dungeons for toughness/vitality/power pants). It’s very disheartening when people save all their karma from 1-80 and the most they can afford is 1 maybe 2 pieces.

Now people are forced to grind even more for best statted gear and you wonder why they are angry? They were sold this game on flat out lie. The manifesto has been linked, there are plenty of videos/interviews/etc where devs talk about making everything accessible and now we have gear that is not accessible and further segregates the community.

Loosifah.4739:

They said max stat gear was in game(exotics). They NEVER said that exotics were going to always be top slot gear.

They actually did say this. There is a video Q&A with Colin Johanson and Eric Flannum where they state that legendary weapons will never be more powerful than the exotic weapons. They explicitly mention exotic weapons as being no less powerful, and even point out that Legendary weapons are based off of certain exotics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Y-YBsK17j6I#t=401s

Edit: In case anyone hasn’t read their plans for Legendary weapons, they will be bumped up in stats to match Ascended gear, making them better than exotics. This actually happened unintentially in the Lost Shores patch, but was quickly reversed later the same day.

azizul.8469:

expect to see some sort of armor driller in TP in the future. driller can be used to create empty upgrade slot.

it is all Nexon’s fault !

It is fitting people mention Nexon because both Vindictus and Dragon Nest (despite their ridiculous grindfest and game mismanagement) required much more skill to be proficient then GW2 and its “zerg big monster, spam all buttons” approach. If i wanted grind, why would i leave games with superior combat systems for GW2?

I came to GW2 after 7 years of GW1 and 5 years of waiting for “when its rdy”, believing in the Anet spirit of horizontal progression, and an equitable playing field where skill determines outcomes and I’m greeted with the fact that I must get ascended gear to play better? Utter farce…

mrstealth.6701:

Loosifah.4739:

They said max stat gear was in game(exotics). They NEVER said that exotics were going to always be top slot gear.

They actually did say this. There is a video Q&A with Colin Johanson and Eric Flannum where they state that legendary weapons will never be more powerful than the exotic weapons. They explicitly mention exotic weapons as being no less powerful, and even point out that Legendary weapons are based off of certain exotics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Y-YBsK17j6I#t=401s

Edit: In case anyone hasn’t read their plans for Legendary weapons, they will be bumped up in stats to match Ascended gear, making them better than exotics. This actually happened unintentially in the Lost Shores patch, but was quickly reversed later the same day.

Loosifah, on any given point you’ve displayed that you don’t know what you are talking about. Why are you still talking?

AndrewMcLeod.3857:

This is something that existed prior to ascended gear, and was something that we saw happen all the time in GW1, even without any sort of gear progression. Some players, typically people who play the game a lot, tend to only want to play with other players that play like them. They require some sort of proof to get into their party, whether it be displaying your Lightbringer Title, equipping or linking some type of gear, or using some other method of showing that you have already done and are experienced with the content. While ascended gear might be the new excuse, this behavior happens regardless.

While this is not really something that we want to encourage, players do have the choice to play the game in the way they want. We can’t force those players to be all-inclusive in who they invite to the parties they create, and to be honest, doing so would probably make people even more unhappy than they are now, and lead to a lot of undesirable behavior.

Because developers blaming the players always ends up well. Grow a pair why don’t you.

Conner.4702:

AndrewMcLeod.3857:

This is something that existed prior to ascended gear, and was something that we saw happen all the time in GW1, even without any sort of gear progression. Some players, typically people who play the game a lot, tend to only want to play with other players that play like them. They require some sort of proof to get into their party, whether it be displaying your Lightbringer Title, equipping or linking some type of gear, or using some other method of showing that you have already done and are experienced with the content. While ascended gear might be the new excuse, this behavior happens regardless.

While this is not really something that we want to encourage, players do have the choice to play the game in the way they want. We can’t force those players to be all-inclusive in who they invite to the parties they create, and to be honest, doing so would probably make people even more unhappy than they are now, and lead to a lot of undesirable behavior.

Because developers blaming the players always ends up well. Grow a pair why don’t you.

He does have a point about players inventing unneeded requirements, like requiring exotic armor to join a dungeon group. But there is a huge difference between players demanding exotic gear, and Anet adding in the Ascended gear that is actually required by the game mechanics. Anet is giving these players validation in their requirements, and intentionally making the gear difficult to obtain compared to exotics.

It’s PR spin. There is truth in what he said, it just does not apply to the current Ascended gear/grind situation at all.

mrstealth.6701:

Conner.4702:

AndrewMcLeod.3857:

This is something that existed prior to ascended gear, and was something that we saw happen all the time in GW1, even without any sort of gear progression. Some players, typically people who play the game a lot, tend to only want to play with other players that play like them. They require some sort of proof to get into their party, whether it be displaying your Lightbringer Title, equipping or linking some type of gear, or using some other method of showing that you have already done and are experienced with the content. While ascended gear might be the new excuse, this behavior happens regardless.

While this is not really something that we want to encourage, players do have the choice to play the game in the way they want. We can’t force those players to be all-inclusive in who they invite to the parties they create, and to be honest, doing so would probably make people even more unhappy than they are now, and lead to a lot of undesirable behavior.

Because developers blaming the players always ends up well. Grow a pair why don’t you.

He does have a point about players inventing unneeded requirements, like requiring exotic armor to join a dungeon group. But there is a huge difference between players demanding exotic gear, and Anet adding in the Ascended gear that is actually required by the game mechanics. Anet is giving these players validation in their requirements, and intentionally making the gear difficult to obtain compared to exotics.

Not to mention the increased stats from Infused gear. Imagine the stat gains on a fully Infused armor set. It’ll be. Mandatory for PUGs so they can faceroll.

Maz.8604:

Not to mention the increased stats from Infused gear. Imagine the stat gains on a fully Infused armor set. It’ll be. Mandatory for PUGs so they can faceroll.

This is really the majority of the problem. Ascended gear is an absolute upgrade over exotics, not just in Fractals, but in all of PvE and WvW.

As was pointed out in the PR post, GW1 had grind-obtained titles like Lightbringer that gave you increased damage vs a certain type of creature. Players did start requiring other to have this title max (or near it) in order to do a certain area (Domain of Anguish). But outside of DoA and the surrounding areas (general pve) of the Nightfall campaign, the Lightbringer title was completely useless.

It also deserves to be pointed out that there multiple instances where similar titles were “rebalanced” to have their maximum effect at less than max rank. I believe the initial change was to have most of these titles and their special pve-only skills at max power at ranks attainable without playing GW1 in Hard Mode difficulty. They later reduced the title requirements much farther, with some of them maxing out at ranks attained by little more than just playing through the storyline of the game.

Gear requirements that are created by players are a whole different obstacle than a purposely orchestrated gear check by the game designers. Especially one as poorly implemented as this new “Ascended/Infusion/Agony” debacle. You could have done your gear check without as much punishment to players by utilizing the same system for Infused Armor we had in GW1.

Try attempting WvWvW in 6 months without this gear. It will be at least 20% better than exotics. you will get curb stomped.

AndrewMcLeod.3857:

Derk.3189:

Stormleaf.1769:

Erulogos.2591:

Quoting you both as you both make the same argument, essentially, and miss the same issue.

The issue is not with -current- content. No Ascended gear is required to finish every dungeon and kill every boss currently walking Tyria.

The issue is with -future- content. It was stated, when Ascended gear was announced, that Agony (and thus Agony resist) was something that would be involved in content going forward. It was not stated, one way or the other, if it would be required to even attempt future content, and it therefore becomes a simple question: grind Ascended and Agony resist now, so you are ready for the new content no matter what, or wait and see if it will be required, and hope that, if it is, enough other people waited that you can get groups to grind it out.

It is true that as of this moment in time, the grind heavy gear is not required to see any of the content in the game. But we don’t know when or if it will be, and Anet has not said one way or the other. A lot of folks saying it is required are basically taking the cautious path, assuming it will be and preparing for the worst.

The issue with this is that ArenaNet could have easily made this content require Agony resistance from the beginning as well, by making it some Mystic Forge thing and introducing Agony at fractal level 1. They didn’t; heck, they even made it so low levels can participate. Exotics aren’t even a requirement for the early difficulty levels. If they didn’t do it now, why do you think they’re magically going to start doing it in the future? None of the content in GW2 has been restricted like that. There is zero indication of ArenaNet ever restricting content like that, and it’s simply not helpful to base your argument on an assumption that they’ll magically start doing it.

AHHAHA You really think they did that for the players? Its just there to draw out the content, an additional carrot on another stick. Oh you want to see what agony is like? Hit me up 10 levels.

The Agony mechanic wasn’t introduced at the start of the dungeon so that everybody can experience the content. While one of the goals of the Fractals of the Mists dungeon was to provide some difficult content for players looking for a challenge, we also wanted the dungeon to be available for everybody to experience. While getting far into the dungeon requires agony resistance from ascended gear, the content was designed to provide challenging content, and to allow players to choose what difficulty they wanted to play at.

As for ascended gear, to reiterate what Chris has said (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/A-message-from-our-Studio-Design-Director-Chris-Whiteside), it’s not intended as a treadmill, but rather as a tier of rewards that can help bridge the gap between Exotics (a few hours of effort to acquire a piece) and Legendaries (hundreds of hours of effort to acquire one). They’re currently only available in the Fractals of the Mist Dungeon, but we’re going to be adding new ways to acquire them, both inside of WvW as well as elsewhere in PvE.

• Agony provides gate.
• It is obvious that you do not need to push out ascended for resist of Agony. What you did in GW1 — allow players to apply buff on their equipment — was good enough for you to develop “harder” contents.
• About the fractal level, I have no idea why you need to set limit to prevent low fractal level players to do higher fractal content while there are already a lvl 80 limit.
• I cannot understand why you can’t provide sidekick-like system to make low fractal players have less rewards from high fractal contents.

You ideas might be right. But how you develop and what are provided to us are completely disaster.

About what Chris said

• You’re all biased.
• The ascended gears means — if one wants legendary gears, now the efforts he needs are actually “the time to acquire ascended gear pluses the time to acquire legendary gear”. I do not think what you provide can resolve any problem you mentioned.
• As a result, your patch brings in the treadmill. It doesn’t matter how and what you thought. Players think and feel it’s treadmill.

Again, maybe you designers didn’t mean to do such thing; but the results, the patch, make people believe that you’re lying.

days and days of silent derision to the paying player base posting in the mega thread and the only reply we get is the same weak PR spin in some unrelated thread?

Is everyone at the office and on the design team seriously drinking this koolaid?

Even while playing WoW (or Rift, or SWTOR, or whatever MMO you might think of) i was never fond of vertical progression.
It negates the whole leveling experience, the whole world even, only to focus on what they call the endgame : sitting in town and spamming chat channels (or using a LFG tool) only to find a group of greedy berserker to clear the next dungeon as fast as we could.

That’s where the problem lies. GW2 is supposed to be a vibrant, living game. To some extent, what you do matters (to some extent). And you’re a kitten from the start. That’s what it means to be able to use most of your skills as soon as you’re able to grab a weapon. You’re toon is no rookie, nor is he some kind of apprentice.
But with vertical gear progression… we’re back to square one.

It doesn’t matter what happens in the world. Nor does the world itself count for anything. By the way, even if you care about those puny things, how will you be able to run a story mode dungeon when everyone and his mother will be obsessed with hitting the next tier of content and nothing else ?
Hit 80 as fast as you can ! Go get your gear even faster, whatever the cost !

That’s what vertical progression brings to the table : nothing except emptiness.

The min-maxing stat MMO mentality will never die; if you reward it, then prepare to suffer the consequences.

Proven by EVERY MMO ever made.

When will every MMO stop wanting to be WoW ? Oh sorry… WoW with poor implementation.

Carakangaran.3561:

When will every MMO stop wanting to be WoW ? Oh sorry… WoW with poor implementation.

The moment they realize WoW does the same thing but better? Apparently a very hard concept to grasp.

AndrewMcLeod.3857:

This is something that existed prior to ascended gear, and was something that we saw happen all the time in GW1, even without any sort of gear progression. Some players, typically people who play the game a lot, tend to only want to play with other players that play like them. They require some sort of proof to get into their party, whether it be displaying your Lightbringer Title, equipping or linking some type of gear, or using some other method of showing that you have already done and are experienced with the content. While ascended gear might be the new excuse, this behavior happens regardless.

While this is not really something that we want to encourage, players do have the choice to play the game in the way they want. We can’t force those players to be all-inclusive in who they invite to the parties they create, and to be honest, doing so would probably make people even more unhappy than they are now, and lead to a lot of undesirable behavior.

Glad you noticed the problem and made it worse before you even created a LFG tool.

illgot.1056:

AndrewMcLeod.3857:

This is something that existed prior to ascended gear, and was something that we saw happen all the time in GW1, even without any sort of gear progression. Some players, typically people who play the game a lot, tend to only want to play with other players that play like them. They require some sort of proof to get into their party, whether it be displaying your Lightbringer Title, equipping or linking some type of gear, or using some other method of showing that you have already done and are experienced with the content. While ascended gear might be the new excuse, this behavior happens regardless.

While this is not really something that we want to encourage, players do have the choice to play the game in the way they want. We can’t force those players to be all-inclusive in who they invite to the parties they create, and to be honest, doing so would probably make people even more unhappy than they are now, and lead to a lot of undesirable behavior.

Glad you noticed the problem and made it worse before you even created a LFG tool.

Just funny to see how much effort and money when into making GW2 only to be ruined to simple decisions proven terrible over and over again in the history of MMOs.

AndrewMcLeod.3857:

This is something that existed prior to ascended gear, and was something that we saw happen all the time in GW1, even without any sort of gear progression. Some players, typically people who play the game a lot, tend to only want to play with other players that play like them. They require some sort of proof to get into their party, whether it be displaying your Lightbringer Title, equipping or linking some type of gear, or using some other method of showing that you have already done and are experienced with the content. While ascended gear might be the new excuse, this behavior happens regardless.

While this is not really something that we want to encourage, players do have the choice to play the game in the way they want. We can’t force those players to be all-inclusive in who they invite to the parties they create, and to be honest, doing so would probably make people even more unhappy than they are now, and lead to a lot of undesirable behavior.

But you have actively made this situation worse. I thought one of the big ideas behind this game was to take a big step forward in player co-operation. The way loot works, the way everybody can gather from the same node, the way everybody gets some experience if they help kill the same monster.

This latest patch goes completely against that ethos. Instead of having co-operation you have competition between the player base. These features encourage players to help each other, it’s the complete opposite of what’s happening now since your latest patch. You have succeeded in splitting the player base.

There are people trying to get dungeon groups for fractals at all different levels. This was never the easiest game to find a dungeon group in anyway, but now you have made it even harder.

If someone does manage to find a group then they are subjected to gear inspections and such. This is only going to get worse the more ascended gear that becomes available. Players who haven’t had as much time to farm for items will become alienated and unable to complete some parts of the content.

It appears to me that not only have Arenanet done a u-turn on their gear philosophy, but they have also done one on their player co-operation philosophy by adding features that create barriers.

This all-inclusive game is becoming just another copy/paste gear-based MMO. Something it was never supposed to be according to Mike O’Brien and Colin Johanson. What is going on at Arenanet and why are you ruining your own game??

Phoenix.6735:

Carakangaran.3561:

When will every MMO stop wanting to be WoW ? Oh sorry… WoW with poor implementation.

The moment they realize WoW does the same thing but better? Apparently a very hard concept to grasp.

It’s not as if some had tried it before…

Karizee.8076:

Derk.3189:

Karizee.8076:

Dante.1508:

I really cant see why anyone would bother with Guildwars 2 treadmill when WoW treadmill works better…

You’ve got to be joking.
In WoW, not only do you have grind and RNG, you get to top it off with a Raid Leader, Guild Master, Loot Council, or Ninja Looter that determines whether you even get a chance at the gear.

It’s dreadful.

GW2 is miles ahead of WoW in this respect and so many others.

Actually he has a point. WoW treadmill items are at least innovative with what effects the armor sets do.

Not $180 a year innovative effects.

That’s IF you even get it after the RNG, Raid Leader, Guild Master, Loot Council, and Ninja Looter have had their first shot at it. Let’s not forget you only get this lovely chance at a chance once a week.

You have to be a masochist to play that game.
There’s a reason that GW2’s popularity is soaring.

It’s soaring? I don’t want your subjective opinion posed as facts, show me something that can make your post legitimate.

That said, yes, elitism is beginning to show in regards to the Fractals dungeon. It was always going to happen, implementing a dungeon system with difficulty levels and new gear. People will naturally only take the people who are most optimal for the dungeon. GW2 wants to go that route?

Fair enough.

I’ll be getting my 100% Map Completion (because it’s a goal of mine) and then I’ll be heading over to World of Warcraft to re-subscribe to my old account so I can partake in a vertical progression game that doesn’t suck. Oh yes, and apparently because I’m a masochist.

AndrewMcLeod.3857:

This is something that existed prior to ascended gear, and was something that we saw happen all the time in GW1, even without any sort of gear progression. Some players, typically people who play the game a lot, tend to only want to play with other players that play like them. They require some sort of proof to get into their party, whether it be displaying your Lightbringer Title, equipping or linking some type of gear, or using some other method of showing that you have already done and are experienced with the content. While ascended gear might be the new excuse, this behavior happens regardless.

While this is not really something that we want to encourage, players do have the choice to play the game in the way they want. We can’t force those players to be all-inclusive in who they invite to the parties they create, and to be honest, doing so would probably make people even more unhappy than they are now, and lead to a lot of undesirable behavior.

While i haven’t taken major issue with all of this, this point is an incredibly disappointing post. This post doesn’t have anything to do with Ascended gear. Instead you’ve tried to twist the answer into something more broad in the genre. Adding new gear adds new gear requirements, that’s a fact. More gear progression was something the Guild Wars franchise is know for, and was laid out prior to GW2.

The worst part is where you talk about encouraging this behaviour you talk about. Even though the behaviour isn’t the point, you’re actually admitting to promoting said behaviour. You don’t want to encourage it, yet you have anyway.

Honestly. Some of Anet’s posts and transparency has really raised my eyebrows lately. For good reason i feel. Certain issues aren’t commented on at all-i can’t play my Necro STILL after all this time, and this, and other issues. I suggest you get it together and show some respect to those who deserve it.

AndrewMcLeod.3857:

This is something that existed prior to ascended gear, and was something that we saw happen all the time in GW1, even without any sort of gear progression. Some players, typically people who play the game a lot, tend to only want to play with other players that play like them. They require some sort of proof to get into their party, whether it be displaying your Lightbringer Title, equipping or linking some type of gear, or using some other method of showing that you have already done and are experienced with the content. While ascended gear might be the new excuse, this behavior happens regardless.

While this is not really something that we want to encourage, players do have the choice to play the game in the way they want. We can’t force those players to be all-inclusive in who they invite to the parties they create, and to be honest, doing so would probably make people even more unhappy than they are now, and lead to a lot of undesirable behavior.

Thanks for leaving a post here. And you definitly have a point there. There where always players who require certain in-game things so seperate players.

But I think you will agree with me that differencing between things like experience and gear is not the same.

And don’t get me wrong. I have nothing against players who want experienced partymembers, because that is mostly a good thing. I am honest about that, because I would take a better player (skill-wise or knowlegde-wise) rather than a newbie, if I want to finish the dungeon in a fast and efficient way. And I think most people would do the same.

But with different gear the difference is just numbers, and has nothing to do with skill or tactics, and I am practically forced to take the better equipped players (ok, maybe “forced” is the wrong word here, it would be just…reasonable).

It is, in theory, the same thing. Where would be the difference in seperating the players by experience or by gear? The thing is, now, with Guild Wars 2, I have both options, and that wasn’t possible in Guild Wars 1.

I was wondering, and I am not sure if you can answer me that honestly.
But what do you personally and the other staff that played Guild Wars 1 think about that? Do you really think that the introduction of different gear was necessary, and if so, why? I believe you played Guild Wars 1, so maybe you can tell us why you thought that the system of GW 1 was not good enough.

And it is not really about the ascended gear. The whole system of gear is different than it was in your previous game. The ascneded gear ist just the next thing coming.
I won’t quote your manifesto or anything like that, that’s not the point here, and I understand that you have to abide by the rules of your company.

But I hope some personal opinion of you and maybe some other GW1-staff is possible.

AmBoSS

(Sorry for grammatical issues)

Aufero.2893:

Swarthy Avenger.3072:

If you accept the concept of levels in MMOs, you must accept the concept of gear progression as well.

Why? The two things don’t seem inextricably linked to me. In fact, they haven’t been linked in this game for endgame gear, until now. Before this update, endgame gear progression was entirely cosmetic after the first week or two.

I haven’t noticed any lack of enthusiasm for dungeons or dragon fights, so clearly people can be motivated by something other than stat-based gear progression.

Well, to be honest, I have seen a sharp decline of enthusiasm for the things you mentioned. It started on friday.

Derk.3189:

Actually he has a point. WoW treadmill items are at least innovative with what effects the armor sets do.

Add to this that the amount of time needed to prepare for the fun content (aka end game) is much shorter in WoW than it is in GW2 now. Running hard mode dungeons for a while grinding tokens is easy and fast compared to the grind needed for ascended items. Just imagine the time it’ll take to be full ascended once the complete set is available.

Thus, the WoW treadmill runs smoother and faster.

Karizee.8076:

Not $180 a year innovative effects.

I would gladly pay $180 per year to play GW2 pre-Karka.

To play GW2 with all the bugged dungeons, unpatched.
To play GW2 with all the unbalanced classes as they were.
To play GW2 without any new content, ever.

If that meant that there was no gear treadmill, ever. That I could be part of every content in the game without preparing for it first. That I could silently inch my way to a legendary two years down the road.

AndrewMcLeod.3857:

As for ascended gear, to reiterate what Chris has said (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/A-message-from-our-Studio-Design-Director-Chris-Whiteside), it’s not intended as a treadmill, but rather as a tier of rewards that can help bridge the gap between Exotics (a few hours of effort to acquire a piece) and Legendaries (hundreds of hours of effort to acquire one).

For the records, thanks to Andrew for mentioning what is a very controversial subject.

The issue is that the gap mentioned above didn’t exist. There was clearly a progression from:

• “Common” exotics: things that didn’t take too much time to get, such as the crafted exotics.

• “Rare” exotics: the weapons with unikittenfects that require gifts and are hard to make, but not nearly as hard as exotics, such as Mjolnir, Volcanus, and etc.

• Legendaries themselves.

ArenaNet could have simply turned the “rare” exotics into a tier of their own by calling them “Ascended” items, without the extra stats, and we would officially have a new item category bridging the gap between exotics and legendaries.

The introduction of Ascended items as they are now feels more like a gear treadmill, in a move to catter to people who want their characters to become stronger over time. The issue is that the treadmill cannot stop – once those people get Ascended gear, they will simply ask, “What is next?”.

Erulogos.2591:

Mackdose.6504:

We’ll see how you feel when you hit FotM 20 and need people to be geared to continue to 21. I’m not sure why one game mode suddenly destroys the whole game.

I may never get that far. I expect by then Agony resist would be something of a must, and the grind to get the Ascended backs makes getting a full set of raid gear in WoW seem like a blink of the eye. Back when I played said game, you could acquire (via whatever token the current expansion was using) roughly 1 piece of gear per week using their random dungeon system, plus whatever the RNG gave you while raiding. Unless the Ascended rings have a much higher drop rate than exotics, and even possibly rares, once you get to Fractal 10+, Ascended gear is a heavy grind proposition.

I already make a second run to fractal 10→11, not because I like that level, its because agony is a pain in the kitten and I MUST grind the ring if I want to progress.

Not funny at all. I still remember when you need to make kanaxai 15 times to get the axe. They changed that to the dungeon tokens, and those where not even needed unless you wanted the skin. But now, I MUST grind some levels of that dungeon, because I may encounter huge problems with agony.

And way worse…. the ascendant items that exist atm, don’t even have the atributes I want. There is NOTHING focused on tou + Heal Pow. So to progress I must BREAK my build.

It doesn’t make sense at all.

Frankly I want a refund. Anet completely lied in their manifesto, which is why I bought this game in the first place. Anet claimed there would only be horizontal gear progression… made it 3 whole months before reverting on that. WvW was already declining, and now you’re adding a gear advantage to those who grind for it. Grats on doing exactlty what will make people play even less in WvW.