Guild Wars 2

In a habitual complainer because the only salient purpose to saying anything at all is to make myself feel better by venting.

Source: 15 years of seeing what becomes reality out of everything that’s ever been said by anyone on any side of all the fences in MMOs.

Forums like these can be useful sources of information, and often are that, though they’re also great scream rooms.

The mods police is and maintain PR and legal obligations, reps occasionally shortlist things they feel might be relevant to forward to a Dev, and most devs probably want to hide in their closets and never come out again at the mere thought of being active every day on forums like these.

These aren’t community tools. They’re lives of defense for the devs that occasionally spit something useful up.

I, for one, wouldn’t listen to most of us either. If I were a Dev, would I want to talk to poster me?

Not really. Poster me doesn’t care though, as poster me has spent exhaustive amounts of time and energy being cogent, reasoned and courteous in other times and places.

It’s fairly pointless. So, while I won’t be especially rude or childish, I’ll never bother attempting to be very useful again either.

I will, however, feel better for ranting. They’ve given me a convenient void to below into. I expect little else of it, and I’m never disappointed.

You paid an initial fee for a game that has provided you with what 4 months of content? It has also provided updates, including bug fixes; living story; new content (fractals/eotm/skills) since launch and is continuing to provide content 2 years later, and will probably continue to for at least another 2 years.

A lot of fault lies in players expecting developers to provide them with entertainment. The game itself is huge, admittedly a lot of the concepts are similar if you choose to stack up and Zerk down every group in dungeons, if you choose to afk spamming 1 on world bosses. If you choose to just PvE and not explore WvW/SPvP then you’re going to be limited to how much fun you have in game.

Playing alone is also not the point of an MMO, if you’re bored and find yourself clearing areas solo, joining random pug groups and doing very little with a core group of friends you’re going to be bored.

The way I see it (also illustrated by several earlier posts,) the issue of getting your money’s worth out of the game is a matter of personal opinion. Additionally, the belief that one shouldn’t bother playing a game they aren’t satisfied is also a matter of personal opinion. The issue of how so many people seem to use this common argument in response to unsatisfied customers doesn’t bother me so much as how these statements are posted as factual and not opinionated.

If one has a clearly opinionated post, I feel it’s best for the post to include some clarification that the statement is the poster’s opinion. Opinions like “if the game isn’t up to your expectations, then don’t bother playing it,” are fine as long as they aren’t blanket statements. The value of the game along with the reason to play it is up to each individual. One opinion shouldn’t be held higher above another opinion without solid facts presented to support either side. To stay true to this post, I’m inclined to state that yes these are indeed my personal opinions on the matter.

A simple fix to statements like “If you aren’t enjoying the game, then don’t bother playing is” could be as simple as adding “I feel,” “In my opinion,” “The way I see it,” etc. In addition, using “you” statements are often seen as more aggressive and accusatory than “I” statements, which could make a big difference in the response to certain statements.
—> “I personally don’t see any reason to keep playing a game if I’m not enjoying it.”

http://innerspacetherapy.in/self-help-and-improvement/communication-you-i-statements/

This thread quite frankly is totally subjective including 0 facts. If anything it proves that MMO gamers are different and as long as the genre is there everyone will shout that THEIR point of view is accurate. THEIR way of playing is the most fun. And THEY are the ’’playerbase’’ that companies should care about.

Ashen.2907:

The person in question bought what the game included at launch. Developers add more content over time at significant cost to the company. How is it fine to charge for a product that one spends enormous amounts of money to produce ? Let me ask a counter question, if you spent a significant amount of money creating something to. Ring to market would it be appropriate for you to charge for access to it?

You make money of vanity items.
When was the last time we got a full armour suit, without having to pay on the gem store?
they’re already monetizing vanity items tied to the content that they release to the max, so why is it okay to charge for that content as well?

Mirta.5029:

Ashen.2907:

The person in question bought what the game included at launch. Developers add more content over time at significant cost to the company. How is it fine to charge for a product that one spends enormous amounts of money to produce ? Let me ask a counter question, if you spent a significant amount of money creating something to. Ring to market would it be appropriate for you to charge for access to it?

You make money of vanity items.
When was the last time we got a full armour suit, without having to pay on the gem store?
they’re already monetizing vanity items tied to the content that they release to the max, so why is it okay to charge for that content as well?

The Carapace and Luminescent armors are in the process of release even now, via the Silverwastes content and I think LS S2. They are earned through play, not bought from the store. The store seems to be offering more Outfits than armor skins atm. Perhaps ANet is intending to give some players more of what they asked for, armor skins earned via play.

And unless Tera has completely changed, its story was worse than GW2’s. From my perspective, you’ve got one game giving away story. Does SWtOR? Does AoC? They went F2P. They sell content updates.

I get that you don’t want to buy the LS S2 content. It sounds to me like you want to access LS2, but not enough to spend the money. That’s your lookout. You have the option not to buy it.

Ashen.2907:

Mirta.5029:

However how is it fine to charge for the lore of the game when the person has already given you 80£ for their game to begin with?

The person in question bought what the game included at launch. Developers add more content over time at significant cost to the company. How is it fine to charge for a product that one spends enormous amounts of money to produce ? Let me ask a counter question, if you spent a significant amount of money creating something to. Ring to market would it be appropriate for you to charge for access to it?

To answer your counter question:
Depends on whether I, as a company directory/sales-exec/guy that makes the big decisions, would want some reputation for the franchise/company or some big bucks. And that decision would probably be affected by how well my other lines of business are going.

Mirta.5029:

Ashen.2907:

The person in question bought what the game included at launch. Developers add more content over time at significant cost to the company. How is it fine to charge for a product that one spends enormous amounts of money to produce ? Let me ask a counter question, if you spent a significant amount of money creating something to. Ring to market would it be appropriate for you to charge for access to it?

You make money of vanity items.
When was the last time we got a full armour suit, without having to pay on the gem store?
they’re already monetizing vanity items tied to the content that they release to the max, so why is it okay to charge for that content as well?

So one could say that you can get gem store items without tapping your credit card. That is via the gold-to-gem conversion – yes, expensive, I know. Still takes a punch at your statment/posed question (1st one), it would have eventually hit you anyways.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Mirta.5029:

Ashen.2907:

The person in question bought what the game included at launch. Developers add more content over time at significant cost to the company. How is it fine to charge for a product that one spends enormous amounts of money to produce ? Let me ask a counter question, if you spent a significant amount of money creating something to. Ring to market would it be appropriate for you to charge for access to it?

You make money of vanity items.
When was the last time we got a full armour suit, without having to pay on the gem store?
they’re already monetizing vanity items tied to the content that they release to the max, so why is it okay to charge for that content as well?

The Carapace and Luminescent armors are in the process of release even now, via the Silverwastes content and I think LS S2. They are earned through play, not bought from the store. The store seems to be offering more Outfits than armor skins atm. Perhaps ANet is intending to give some players more of what they asked for, armor skins earned via play.

And unless Tera has completely changed, its story was worse than GW2’s. From my perspective, you’ve got one game giving away story. Does SWtOR? Does AoC? They went F2P. They sell content updates.

I get that you don’t want to buy the LS S2 content. It sounds to me like you want to access LS2, but not enough to spend the money. That’s your lookout. You have the option not to buy it.

And what he means is (at least I think), if you miss out on the LS before the next one comes and don’t get the armor piece… then you will need to fork over some gems to unlock that LS part so you can get the armor piece.

Carry on

Mirta.5029:

Ashen.2907:

The person in question bought what the game included at launch. Developers add more content over time at significant cost to the company. How is it fine to charge for a product that one spends enormous amounts of money to produce ? Let me ask a counter question, if you spent a significant amount of money creating something to. Ring to market would it be appropriate for you to charge for access to it?

You make money of vanity items.
When was the last time we got a full armour suit, without having to pay on the gem store?
they’re already monetizing vanity items tied to the content that they release to the max, so why is it okay to charge for that content as well?

Why is it OK to charge for content that they spent money to produce as well?

Because they are not a charity. They spend resources producing a product that is, hopefully, sufficiently desirable that people will pay them for it.

They then provide an option for individual players to get the content by playing the game to get in fame resources tradable for gems, without spending a dime. I can assure you that they cannot pay their development costs by playing the game.

They even allow players to play the new content without having to spend those in game resources. Anyone who has access to the content can share it with others.

They also give the content away at no monetary cost to players for just logging in once during a two week period.

Multiple options to access new content for free, they then provide a cash option for those who choose to not partake of the free options.

I have some serious reservations about Anet and GW2, but their business plan is not one of them. They practically beg us to accept the fruits of their labor for free while accepting real world payment if we choose to refuse getting everything for free.

Still trying to get into the game. Just started re-installing it right now. My highest character is 43 and I’ve had the game since a couple months after launch.

Largely I have trouble with combat because I find it so boring which I know is weird because I come from WoW which is stand still and wait for cast time. But it’s been a huge hindrance to my enjoyment.

One of the biggest things that irks me about this game though is that I get 4 Character slots and have to pay what 10 bucks for each one after that? Are you kidding me? I understand they need money to keep content flowing and servers up but to pay full price for the game and not even be granted slots for all classes is just absurd to me.

Maybe the game isn’t for me but I’m gonna keep giving it a try until I think I got my money’s worth. I just think it’s sad that it feels like I have to give into a cash shop to get the full value out of it

slamfunction.7462:

Vayne.8563:

slamfunction.7462:

Vayne.8563:

I think the MMO genre is too new to say what will and won’t work longterm anymore. Years ago, when MMOs weren’t main stream you might have been right.

But I suspect there are enough people now who are achievement point hunters and people who like to play dress up with different alts that could carry a game like this indefinitely.

A lot of people would leave, but in my opinion the numbers left behind would be enough to fund the game.

And because the genre is new and growing and changing, we won’t know if this will work until it’s actually tried.

snip

At any rate, no point to complain about it. They don’t pay attention anyhow, so the only thing we can do is sit by and watch our friends go play other things OR realize that it is what it is and make the best of it. Your choice.

I love this game. I going to keep playing it for as long as there are people here to game with. I don’t have to “like” ANet to do that.

When I read posts like this, I wonder if you live in the same universe I live in.

WoW is completely 100% irrrelevant to this argument. Time and place. It IS a ten year old MMO and the landscape has changed since it came out. It doesn’t matter if WoW has 60 millon subs. No one has been able to replicate it and there’s no saying WoW could do it if it came out in this environment at this time.

WoW’s success is partly due to their ability to fund advertising and when it was released. The logic that applies to it applies to no new or current game. Thus irrelevant to the situation.

Every game that tries to be like WoW doesn’t go all that far. Certainly not nearly as far as WoW. WoW succeed through inertia. That’s all.

The rest of the industry which is what we’re talking about is evolving. The stuff that made WOW popular in its day doesn’t work anymore for any other product but WoW.

Ditto, on your first sentence.

I’m retorting the comment,

I think the MMO genre is too new to say what will and won’t work longterm anymore. Years ago, when MMOs weren’t main stream you might have been right.

Its not new. You’re wrong. You made an incorrect statement with this. MMOs HAVE been around for long enough now for newer developers to say what will and will not work now. Unfortunately, they tend to do a sloppy job at implmenting it.

When you log into GW2, you can TELL that the initial development on the game was done with ALOT of love, caring, and attention to detail. A team of people REALLY went all out to pour their heart and soul into this game. You can tell by the zones, the stories, the artworks, and those little hidden Easter eggs here and there.

Can you honestly tell me that that same level of love and commitment is in the game with all the new features and LS additions?

My point of view on the answer to that is no one can say 100% either way, and thus why we have these little debates. Again, the game is great. The company running it currently, not so much.

The MMO genre is new. There biggest most important MMO has been around 10 years. If you think 10 years is a long time in an industry that changes this fast, I don’t know what to tell you. Iron mining is not new. MMOs are new. MMOs at the level they are today are completely new, and they’re ever evolving.

10 years ago, no MMO in existence had active combat. Because servers couldn’t support active combat with 100 people on the screen. It’s why so many MMOs have global cooldowns. To minimize server calls.

When did the first MMOFPS come out. Not five years ago.

The MMO genre is being constantly defined and redefined. If you think 10, or even 20 years is a long time for an industry that’s new to finish getting to where it’s going, there’s nothing more to say.

This is a relatively new industry that’s changing all the time and will continue to change. Those who can’t change with it will be, as always, left behind.

Vayne.8563:

The MMO genre is being constantly defined and redefined. If you think 10, or even 20 years is a long time for an industry that’s new to finish getting to where it’s going, there’s nothing more to say.

This is a relatively new industry that’s changing all the time and will continue to change. Those who can’t change with it will be, as always, left behind.

MMOs are almost as old as online gaming as we know it today, come to think of it. Ultima Online was played on dial-up modems, for crying out loud, and that wasn’t even the first game of the type.

. . . heck, computer gaming itself as we know it today can be considered a relatively new industry. Especially since it’s almost painful to try to get games more than twenty-five years old to run properly on modern systems. (It can be done, for most of them, but I still have problems getting the original Myst CD-rom to work sometimes.)

And it’s still not as new as console gaming as we know it . . .

Really it’s a surprise half the stuff we see these days doesn’t require day one patches . .. oh, wait . . .

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Vayne.8563:

The MMO genre is being constantly defined and redefined. If you think 10, or even 20 years is a long time for an industry that’s new to finish getting to where it’s going, there’s nothing more to say.

This is a relatively new industry that’s changing all the time and will continue to change. Those who can’t change with it will be, as always, left behind.

MMOs are almost as old as online gaming as we know it today, come to think of it. Ultima Online was played on dial-up modems, for crying out loud, and that wasn’t even the first game of the type.

. . . heck, computer gaming itself as we know it today can be considered a relatively new industry. Especially since it’s almost painful to try to get games more than twenty-five years old to run properly on modern systems. (It can be done, for most of them, but I still have problems getting the original Myst CD-rom to work sometimes.)

And it’s still not as new as console gaming as we know it . . .

Really it’s a surprise half the stuff we see these days doesn’t require day one patches . .. oh, wait . . .

The Internet isn’t old. I don’t know why people think a 20 year old business is old. Television is old. Radio is old. Computers is still a relatively new business, Internet is relatively new and MMOs are newer than both.

This industry hasn’t come close to settling or working out it’s kinks. In fact, as the computer industry changes, MMOs change. Active combat was one example. How many MMOs six years ago used active combat?

This industry is evolving quickly and will continue to evolve as people figure out what to do with it.

Look at all the industries in existence, make a chart of them and look at how many of them have been around longer than MMOs.

Ten years, Twenty years, those are measures of new industries.

New with regard to industry doesn’t usually mean something that happened last month.

I agree with OP to an extent. For the $60.oo I paid for this game, I think I more than got my money’s worth. I’ve spent more than that on drinks for people who’s company I don’t enjoy. For $60.oo I got a great game, adventure, and fun community of players and friends to interact with. I like this game a lot and I’m passionate about its future. That’s why I tend to be critical of the decisions made regarding its progression.

I vehemently disagree with the position, “If you don’t like it, don’t play it” at face value. If you truly dislike the game, the mechanics, the community, then yes…don’t play it. However, I like the game a lot but I disagree with some of the decisions being made regarding its future.

Being told “If you don’t like it, don’t play” comes off to me as saying “If you don’t like your country’s political decisions, leave” or “If you don’t agree with the current administration, don’t vote.” Many of the Forum White Knights are very aggressive in their rhetoric against open discussion and free speech.

The fact is, I do love this game. I care about it and I want to enjoy it for years to come. If I don’t like something, I will voice my opinion. I won’t stay silent and I certainly won’t move to silence the voices of other players. So, in that sense, I do agree with the OP. The line, “If you don’t like it, don’t play” is a bullkitten line. All it does is get in the way of productive discussion that could actually impact the way the game is being built and driven.

Saint.5647:

Being told “If you don’t like it, don’t play” comes off to me as saying “If you don’t like your country’s political decisions, leave” or “If you don’t agree with the current administration, don’t vote.” Many of the Forum White Knights are very aggressive in their rhetoric against open discussion and free speech.

First, free speech means I can tell you to shut up if I don’t like what you said, or how you said it. The latter is more the reason I’ll say it, though I’m less likely to anymore. If you’re going to invoke free speech to defend your right to say something? I’m going to invoke it right back against people trying to shut me up for being a “White Knight”

(I’m really more of a gray one anymore anyway. I ran out of bleach.)

Second, free speech doesn’t extend to private forums. Which this is. I really wish people grasped that concept more than the first one. If you want free speech, take it to Reddit.

Lastly, sometimes it’s not open discussion either – it’s just bashing. Sure, this goes both ways . . . but it’s still not good for either side to get represented by people whose idea of “open discussion” begins with “Why does this game suck?” or “Why is ANet trying to kill their game?”. That’s not open discussion. That’s trying to start a circlekitty.

Ellixen.1572:

Still trying to get into the game. Just started re-installing it right now. My highest character is 43 and I’ve had the game since a couple months after launch.

Largely I have trouble with combat because I find it so boring which I know is weird because I come from WoW which is stand still and wait for cast time. But it’s been a huge hindrance to my enjoyment.

One of the biggest things that irks me about this game though is that I get 4 Character slots and have to pay what 10 bucks for each one after that? Are you kidding me? I understand they need money to keep content flowing and servers up but to pay full price for the game and not even be granted slots for all classes is just absurd to me.

Maybe the game isn’t for me but I’m gonna keep giving it a try until I think I got my money’s worth. I just think it’s sad that it feels like I have to give into a cash shop to get the full value out of it

You get five character slots, not four. That’s one for each race. This this game tends to be more involved in story, that allows you to experience each race’s story.

Vayne.8563:

You get five character slots, not four. That’s one for each race. This this game tends to be more involved in story, that allows you to experience each race’s story.

Though you can safely skip the asura storyline and simply imagine Zojja repeatedly proclaiming “I’m the best!” over and over and treating you like her personal footstool when you’re not kissing her toes.

. . . if we didn’t need her expertise I swear I’d use her as bait for Primordius.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Vayne.8563:

You get five character slots, not four. That’s one for each race. This this game tends to be more involved in story, that allows you to experience each race’s story.

Though you can safely skip the asura storyline and simply imagine Zojja repeatedly proclaiming “I’m the best!” over and over and treating you like her personal footstool when you’re not kissing her toes.

. . . if we didn’t need her expertise I swear I’d use her as bait for Primordius.

Were you rooting for Kudu too?

Vayne.8563:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Vayne.8563:

You get five character slots, not four. That’s one for each race. This this game tends to be more involved in story, that allows you to experience each race’s story.

Though you can safely skip the asura storyline and simply imagine Zojja repeatedly proclaiming “I’m the best!” over and over and treating you like her personal footstool when you’re not kissing her toes.

. . . if we didn’t need her expertise I swear I’d use her as bait for Primordius.

Were you rooting for Kudu too?

Actually no, I was busy entertaining a vision of bouncing his smug gourd off a couple handy walls.

. . . mmm.

Sorry, where was I? Oh, right. Yeah, didn’t like him either. Glad we got to put him down before he became a problem.

yolo swaggins.2570:

Actually it isn’t. And if you read the whole OP you’de see that I wrote “reoccurring issues” instead of “bored” or “lack of new content”. People complain about far more than lack of new content although lack of new content is a major one.

Forum users are a minority of overall active playerbase.
I see it not fair for minority to decide what’s good for majority – and enforcing someone to participate on forums is also a no go – there is always a survey system which can be created for such purposes to gather feedback from majority of playerbase.

As I said “it is as simple as that” – I won’t deny that phrase you did quote is a harsh one.
And what recurring issues you speak about?
Mounts? Houses? More Dungeons?
Despite the fact that most of the issues that have been mentioned have been answered already by Staff and countlessly repeated by forum users.
Majority of those recurring issues, are simply repeated by the same people who do not understand the answer they were given – and I understand completely lack of any Staff reply there – repeating yourself over and over again is bothersome.

Playerbase is divided between people who like and dislike certain changes.
Best example is new daily system and removal of monthly one.
In most cases I can read even silly threats that if Anet shall not abide by their wishes, they’ll leave.
When you summarize it, it’s not a surprise that people say “Don’t like it? GTFO then”.
It’s visible that polite way to ask for changes, making suggestions etc has dropped.
Despite the fact that title and beginning of OP start politely, it sooner or later simply turns into that OP is demanding stuff.
That New Content issue is mainly only because people skip 80% of Content anyway.
There aren’t that many who take their time and do whole content w/o rush.

Mirta.5029:

Tera is a really good MMO with an in-depth story, TESO has F2P rumours all around because they removed a lot of subscription options and WoW is the only game that can successfully get away with it.

Majority of F2P and B2P games charge for skins and vanity items. That’s completely fine. However how is it fine to charge for the lore of the game when the person has already given you 80£ for their game to begin with?

TERA has a really nice Lore and despite being Korean grinder – Leveling is grindy – then for a first timer, when you read all quests then it’s a really funny and nice game.
Also it’s quite a challenging game both in PvE and PvP. And skill system is even bit better than Gw2, except damage modifiers.

TSW is B2P and charges for Issue content – missions that are related to Lore. You can always repeat them countless times.
PvE wise, TSW is a very interesting game and unique of it’s kind, Also it’s not easy.

WoW is WoW. P2P model + content purchases since Day1. Proved that people will pay and pay more if they have to. All you need is a good advertisement and game.
Most games, good games, lack proper advertisement.
Gw2 lack advertises.
TERA lack advertises.
TSW lack advertises.
etc etc etc

I know about WoW only because of advertises and people talking about it.
And that’s the key to get customers – advertises and game.

And when you have a warchest the size WoW has, they can advertise. Advertising is not cheap, especially if you are talking TV.

Advertising is all about cost per delivered customer to those who are paying. If that cost is too high, they don’t choose to advertise in that medium. Right now a lot of not WoW MMOs advertise for “free” through social media and a constant stream of articles published on the various MMO news sites.

yolo swaggins.2570:

We’ve all heard/said this before. Don’t play something that you don’t like to do because it is unnecessary frustration. It is just common sense which is no wonder people use the phrase to combat complaints.

I use it a lot for a different reason:
If you’re unhappy with the game, playing it a lot sends the signal to the devs that you are happy. With non-sub games like GW2, at least.

You’re basically saying “Hey, I love your game, but your gem store isn’t my thing yet. Please find a better way to monetize me, but other than that all is good!”.

Is that really the message you were intending to send?

Ashen.2907:

Why is it OK to charge for content that they spent money to produce as well?

Because they are not a charity. They spend resources producing a product that is, hopefully, sufficiently desirable that people will pay them for it.

They then provide an option for individual players to get the content by playing the game to get in fame resources tradable for gems, without spending a dime. I can assure you that they cannot pay their development costs by playing the game.

They even allow players to play the new content without having to spend those in game resources. Anyone who has access to the content can share it with others.

They also give the content away at no monetary cost to players for just logging in once during a two week period.

Multiple options to access new content for free, they then provide a cash option for those who choose to not partake of the free options.

I have some serious reservations about Anet and GW2, but their business plan is not one of them. They practically beg us to accept the fruits of their labor for free while accepting real world payment if we choose to refuse getting everything for free.

yet a bunch of other companies are able to give you the core content for free?

The way that I see it, lore is part of the core content, if you’re unable to access it, the world makes no sense. They messed up the personal story completely, so that’s the initial bit of lore that I payed for that now makes no sense. I was lucky to be there for season 1, but people that missed it have absolutely no idea about what happened during it. And season 2, every new player will have to buy it.

So you buy the game,
you play trough your personal story and get seriously confused, especially at Orr,
you look at Lion’s Arch and wonder what has happened because you weren’t around to see it,
the you look at Season 2 in your story journal and see that you have to pay for it.

People won’t see this as a quality game, especially if they like to get immersed into the story of the world.

Vayne.8563:

The Internet isn’t old.

The internet is at least 50 years old. It is kitten well old at this point.

MMOs are 40 years old, btw.

Computers are also a 50 year business at this point. It’s not “new” anymore when you’ve hit half a century of existence.

Gene Archer.8560:

Vayne.8563:

The Internet isn’t old.

The internet is at least 50 years old. It is kitten well old at this point.

MMOs are 40 years old, btw.

Computers are also a 50 year business at this point. It’s not “new” anymore when you’ve hit half a century of existence.

Right it’s right up there with coal mining and iron ore. They’re still new industries. And there are new industries associated with them every day. It’s all semantics and relative anyway, but those MMOs that are 40 years old have absolutely nothing to do with the business of MMOs today. It’s not the same product or the same business.

Which is my point. If anyone bothered to actually read what I was replying to, instead of taking it out of context, they’d see I’m saying that the field is still evolving and stuff that worked ten years ago might not be what works today. Stuff that worked five years ago.

Someone had replied to me when I said that certain things that used to work won’t anymore.

If you want to disagree with the substance of what I said, feel free.

If you want to pick on the world old, I won’t reply again. Pointless point remains pointless.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Saint.5647:

Being told “If you don’t like it, don’t play” comes off to me as saying “If you don’t like your country’s political decisions, leave” or “If you don’t agree with the current administration, don’t vote.” Many of the Forum White Knights are very aggressive in their rhetoric against open discussion and free speech.

First, free speech means I can tell you to shut up if I don’t like what you said, or how you said it. The latter is more the reason I’ll say it, though I’m less likely to anymore. If you’re going to invoke free speech to defend your right to say something? I’m going to invoke it right back against people trying to shut me up for being a “White Knight”

(I’m really more of a gray one anymore anyway. I ran out of bleach.)

Second, free speech doesn’t extend to private forums. Which this is. I really wish people grasped that concept more than the first one. If you want free speech, take it to Reddit.

Lastly, sometimes it’s not open discussion either – it’s just bashing. Sure, this goes both ways . . . but it’s still not good for either side to get represented by people whose idea of “open discussion” begins with “Why does this game suck?” or “Why is ANet trying to kill their game?”. That’s not open discussion. That’s trying to start a circlekitty.

@Tobias:

That is not what free speech means. You really should look it up before you correct someone. Free speech means that the government is not allowed to deny a citizen the right to express him/herself. This actually comes with a host of limitations (slander, libel, etc), but the concept itself applies specifically to the government, not to interactions between individuals.

@Saint:

Comparing not playing a game you don’t enjoy to leaving the country is a ridiculous comparison considering the cost of alternatives for both.

Tao.5096:

I don’t see the point of that thread.
From what I see, is that some people after 3 months get bored and dont’ see any new content to participate in.
Like really?
Most of those people are simply farming like mad to catch up to end game players, while after they realize there is nothing to farm and all you need is to chill out and find yourself a spot to have fun in.
People burn out of this game, just like from many other games.

So it isn’t as simple as, “Don’t like it? Gtfo.” And I know some of you are thinking, “Well you’ve already got your money’s worth…” but then that isn’t for you to decide. It is their money.

Yes it is simple as that.
You paid for it, you had fun for the time you played.
You got bored and want to quit – go ahead, no one stops you.
If you quit, you can always come back.

It’s a normal rotation of players in MMOs nowadays – not many can stick to one game for long.

Unless, some people look for sentimental shoulder to cry on.

The point is, players offering feedback on what they don’t like about the game shouldn’t be met with that type of hostility. It provides no value whatsoever, to the community or to anyone. It’s such a common thing in social situations to say “if you don’t like how things are here, then leave”. But, if enough people don’t like how things are and leave, without offering any feedback as to why they left to begin with, you’d end up only a handful of people with bad attitudes.

Subdue.5479:

@Tobias:

That is not what free speech means. You really should look it up before you correct someone. Free speech means that the government is not allowed to deny a citizen the right to express him/herself. This actually comes with a host of limitations (slander, libel, etc), but the concept itself applies specifically to the government, not to interactions between individuals.

Well, you see, that’s what it means in the legal term. In the sense of what they were saying about it? I cut right to what it actually means to us individuals – you can say I’m a {Redacted] and it’s your right to do so . . . it’s also my right to tell you to please remove your cranium from your rectum and cease usage of your vocal cords until you can speak politely.

In short, you’re allowed to say what you want. I’m allowed to tell you how much what you said sucks. There’s no need to drag ‘governmental bodies’ into it, since none are involved here in the first place. Just a private company . . . to which the limitations don’t apply anyway.

I have definitely told people if you don’t like it, don’t play. Primarily, though, it is to those people who have no critique, they just straight up dislike some feature or event that was added. For whatever reason it rubs them the wrong way. They don’t have any observations to add, they don’t provide a way to improve it along their consideration of improvement. They just straight up dislike whatever it is and want it to be removed.

So, you know what, “You don’t like it, don’t play. You’re not required. You will survive if you don’t,” is the right answer, because I guarantee that in those circumstances it is true. I add that because, if they were required, if they had to complete it to finish something important to the game somehow, they would have any number of suggestions beyond, just take it out.

minbariguy.7504:

Filaha.1678:

The game is not a completely different thing than it started out as, like the club in your analogy.

I’m not saying that it is. However, how different a game is from it’s point of origin to it’s current state is a matter of opinion. And alas, you do not get to decide for someone else if it is different enough to warrant their state of unhappiness. Acting as though you have the right to make that determination on someone else’s behalf only weakens your argument.

I didn’t say anything about whether or not it’s different enough to be unhappy about.

I said it wasn’t completely different, like the club in the analogy.

Not reading what I said devastates your argument before you make it.

And no, how different a game is from its current incarnation is not at all a matter of opinion. It’s entirely objective, because it doesn’t matter how you view the game, the same changes have been made to everyone. Whether I like a change you dislike is irrelevant to the objective fact that it was changed.

I don’t think anyone can honestly say this game hasn’t changed. There have been a number of sweeping changes, some I like and some I don’t.

But I’ve never played an MMO that hasn’t changed and I don’t see why people would expect games not to change. At that point, it’s a matter of either liking how the game evolves, or not liking it. Being able to deal with it, or not being able to deal with it.

But change will happen. I tend to try to see why changes were made and deal with them on that level. There are very few changes made that I can’t see a good reason for. In which case I just say my piece, maybe once or twice and move on to the next thing…because there’s a ton of stuff I still enjoy about the game.

If that changes, I promise you I won’t be hanging around the forums for a year trying to get the game to change back.

Gene Archer.8560:

Vayne.8563:

The Internet isn’t old.

The internet is at least 50 years old. It is kitten well old at this point.

MMOs are 40 years old, btw.

Computers are also a 50 year business at this point. It’s not “new” anymore when you’ve hit half a century of existence.

The Internet, for the general public, really only became widespread when Windows 95 came out. So that’s a tad less than 20 years. Of course university students and computer geeks had access some years before that. Services like Compuserve/Prodigy/AOL just penned people in private servers until 95 came out and the public heard about “the Web”.

Gene Archer.8560:

MMOs are 40 years old, btw.

What kind of MMO did people play in the 70’s ?

Behellagh.1468:

Gene Archer.8560:

Vayne.8563:

The Internet isn’t old.

The internet is at least 50 years old. It is kitten well old at this point.

MMOs are 40 years old, btw.

Computers are also a 50 year business at this point. It’s not “new” anymore when you’ve hit half a century of existence.

The Internet, for the general public, really only became widespread when Windows 95 came out. So that’s a tad less than 20 years. Of course university students and computer geeks had access some years before that. Services like Compuserve/Prodigy/AOL just penned people in private servers until 95 came out and the public heard about “the Web”.

I kind of started in 1996 with a power mac 6100. My favorite game was Marathon.

Before that we had some Windows 3 stuff at work.

Haishao.6851:

Gene Archer.8560:

MMOs are 40 years old, btw.

What kind of MMO did people play in the 70’s ?

The best kind. It’s called The Outside . It’s actually still quite popular, they seem to be on patch 2.0.1.5 now, though they patch slowly, about 1 patch per year.

(lol, I actually laughed myself, they have a thread going on to nerf boobs)

MMO is one of the oldest genre.. The only new genre that has been made in recent years is moba.

Lifestealer.4910:

MMO is one of the oldest genre.. The only new genre that has been made in recent years is moba.

If you include MUDs as MMOs then yes. If you are limiting to ones using graphics and “the world” is more than a handful of players simultaneously, it’s not all that old.

Haishao.6851:

Gene Archer.8560:

MMOs are 40 years old, btw.

What kind of MMO did people play in the 70’s ?

They were called MUDs. Same concept, only Text and ASCII.

Lifestealer.4910:

MMO is one of the oldest genre.. The only new genre that has been made in recent years is moba.

I don’t really think it’s a genre to be honest, it’s a prefix to genres. More so, it’s a prefix to a game title in a genre that describes how big of an audience it has attracted online.
Think about it, Massive Multiplayer Online….

I don’t consider MMO a genre and I don’t consider MUDs MMOs. They’re completely different types of games, aimed at completely different types of audiences.

They have different sensibilities. Just like text adventures aren’t graphic adventures, aren’t action adventures.

The MMO genre is so removed right now from the start that it might as well be a different genre.

The modern MMO genre is probably about 18 years old, starting with Ultima Online. I don’t consider 18 years an old industry.

I don’t even consider a 50 year old industry an old industry.

Again if you list all the industries, there are many that are hundreds of years old. Fishing is an old industry. Mining is an old industry. Cooking is an old industry. Computers….not so much.

It’s new and most importantly it’s constantly evolving, which was my point. Whether it’s new or old I was responding to someone who said MMOs are like this so I’m wrong. MMOs aren’t like anything, because we have no idea where they’ll be in a five years.

Mirta.5029:

Ashen.2907:

Why is it OK to charge for content that they spent money to produce as well?

Because they are not a charity. They spend resources producing a product that is, hopefully, sufficiently desirable that people will pay them for it.

They then provide an option for individual players to get the content by playing the game to get in fame resources tradable for gems, without spending a dime. I can assure you that they cannot pay their development costs by playing the game.

They even allow players to play the new content without having to spend those in game resources. Anyone who has access to the content can share it with others.

They also give the content away at no monetary cost to players for just logging in once during a two week period.

Multiple options to access new content for free, they then provide a cash option for those who choose to not partake of the free options.

I have some serious reservations about Anet and GW2, but their business plan is not one of them. They practically beg us to accept the fruits of their labor for free while accepting real world payment if we choose to refuse getting everything for free.

yet a bunch of other companies are able to give you the core content for free?

The way that I see it, lore is part of the core content.

Its very easy to argue that someone else’s work should be available for free, after all you didnt pay its development costs.

Other people dont care about the LS, but do like gemstore items….should both be free so that everyone gets what is important to them for free?

Of course both actually are. Everything that you argue shod be free is accessible without any real world cost if the player chooses.

“If you don’t like it, don’t play it.”?? if me no like take train for work, should me no work if far? If me no like water, should me no drink water? starve? if me no like laundry, should me no wash clothes? stay dirty? So if me no like work, should me quit? I no agree with Op say.

But if me Hate, make sense??

Me believe Op is say if you Hate it, don’t play it.; make sense..

Me no like some thing in wvw and is ok. Me can play but no like it still.

sorry english second language

Reading through those posts about how people asked for refunds, as I stumbled across the “I quit back in Nov 2012” as a catchphrase and remembered, “Hey, THAT’S ME!”

Never asked for a refund though, no amount of money could give me an actual Guild Wars 2. I simply don’t have any confidence in Arena Net as developers. Moreover today’s popular counter-culture has likely burrowed their way into the company to the point that there is no getting rid of them. Finally there are the people who hardly care about video games, at extremely high positions within the company.

Granted I still enjoy GW1, because there are actual Guild Wars.

On the bright-side even if Nexon has ruined Tree of Savior before they even left the gate, fun in the east has never been better.

Anyways, keep on Keyfarming.

It’s not a matter of “if you don’t like it, don’t play it”. It’s a matter of “I like them throwing me in an RNG skinner box, and if you don’t like the changes they’re making because of their lack of direction, then leave MY game”.

Humans are selfish creatures and will always take the easy way out, which ultimately makes things harder on themselves. I actually find it sad that there are so many WoW converts who worship the game design here, when in fact, it’s only getting worse. I myself came from WoW back in 2011, but this game has seen the loss of many original lead designers, and thus ANet has no idea where to take this game ATM.

People need to embrace what works, but also be open to ideas that just MIGHT work. Rather than embracing every $#!tty feature that comes along and tell everyone else to “deal with it. it’s great”.

Vayne.8563:

Immensus.9732:

Ive sunk over 1000 hours into the game and every single one of it is worth it, but then i hit a wall. Do i think the game needs endgame after 1000 hours? Yes, theres only 3 types of end game for co-op/online games that makes them last. 1. Competition (see mobas)
2. Gear treadmill (see wow, diablo, borderlands) 3. sandbox and freedom (see minecraft, EvE online). Gw2 has none of them and is strugling on keeping at least the competition part. thats why i think it could have been a perfect co-op experience with new game every 5-6 years rather than MMO.

I think the MMO genre is too new to say what will and won’t work longterm anymore. Years ago, when MMOs weren’t main stream you might have been right.

But I suspect there are enough people now who are achievement point hunters and people who like to play dress up with different alts that could carry a game like this indefinitely.

A lot of people would leave, but in my opinion the numbers left behind would be enough to fund the game.

And because the genre is new and growing and changing, we won’t know if this will work until it’s actually tried.

Vayne, Vayne, Vayne you’re better than this! The MMO genre is new? Try 30 years new, but if you want to nick pick and go all “commercial MMO” you’re still circa 1997. Technologically speaking that’s a lifetime. Most of us don’t even have cars that old.

I do agree with you, however, in that there are enough achievement vultures and daddy dress-up fans to keep the lights on in GW2. Similar situation with the original Guild Wars albeit under different circumstances. I play my monk regularly and my guild is still finding new faces.

It’s actually a perfectly valid answer to quite a few complaints.

The first type is for completely optional things in the game. For example, many people (you may be surprised to learn) really, really hated Super Adventure Box, because it was a ‘lame platformer and if I wanted that I’d play Mario’ or because ‘it was immersion breaking and against the aesthetic of the game’ or whatever. These people came on the forums to complain about the existence of SAB. Despite that SAB is completely optional. For them, it’s a perfectly good response to say “go do something else then, SAB doesn’t hurt you, and other people do like it.” Or, in other words, “if you don’t like it, don’t play it.”

The second type is the (astonishingly frequent) “I’m so bored, I’ve done absolutely everything in GW2 5-100,000 times!” type post. Which for some reason assumes that the game is capable of outputting an infinite amount of content or something. Considering the amount of time these posters have usually spent in game, and since they’re not actually enjoying themselves anymore, it’s pretty reasonable to advise them to take a break and go play something else, the game will still be here when they get back.

Vix.6730:

Vayne, Vayne, Vayne you’re better than this! The MMO genre is new? Try 30 years new, but if you want to nick pick and go all “commercial MMO” you’re still circa 1997. Technologically speaking that’s a lifetime. Most of us don’t even have cars that old.

Well, 1996, actually. But then I don’t expect people to really know much about it…

I do agree with you, however, in that there are enough achievement vultures and daddy dress-up fans to keep the lights on in GW2. Similar situation with the original Guild Wars albeit under different circumstances. I play my monk regularly and my guild is still finding new faces.

I got tired mostly of GW1 for the same reason people claim they’re tired of GW2 – there wasn’t much for me to do which I hadn’t done many times or wasn’t interested in doing. Heroes’ Ascent? Yeah, no, that’s not something I can manage. Guild vs Guild? Alliance Battles? Probably a lot of fun . . . I wasn’t in an alliance/guild which focused a lot on them.

Into year five, all I had was vanquishes and various other title tracks to grind through and I really . . . really . . . didn’t enjoy that. Much less continuing to hope Nick gave me a gift with something I kind of wanted in it rather than more rock candy. (Even if that stuff was incredible.)

Into the third year of GW2 and I have similar feelings, but at least it is easier for me to just jump in and do things than it was in GW1.

Vix.6730:

Vayne.8563:

Immensus.9732:

Ive sunk over 1000 hours into the game and every single one of it is worth it, but then i hit a wall. Do i think the game needs endgame after 1000 hours? Yes, theres only 3 types of end game for co-op/online games that makes them last. 1. Competition (see mobas)
2. Gear treadmill (see wow, diablo, borderlands) 3. sandbox and freedom (see minecraft, EvE online). Gw2 has none of them and is strugling on keeping at least the competition part. thats why i think it could have been a perfect co-op experience with new game every 5-6 years rather than MMO.

I think the MMO genre is too new to say what will and won’t work longterm anymore. Years ago, when MMOs weren’t main stream you might have been right.

But I suspect there are enough people now who are achievement point hunters and people who like to play dress up with different alts that could carry a game like this indefinitely.

A lot of people would leave, but in my opinion the numbers left behind would be enough to fund the game.

And because the genre is new and growing and changing, we won’t know if this will work until it’s actually tried.

Vayne, Vayne, Vayne you’re better than this! The MMO genre is new? Try 30 years new, but if you want to nick pick and go all “commercial MMO” you’re still circa 1997. Technologically speaking that’s a lifetime. Most of us don’t even have cars that old.

I do agree with you, however, in that there are enough achievement vultures and daddy dress-up fans to keep the lights on in GW2. Similar situation with the original Guild Wars albeit under different circumstances. I play my monk regularly and my guild is still finding new faces.

Yes, 20 years is a new industry. When people talk about new industries they don’t talk about something that started up last week.

Compared to most industries, the MMO genre is a new industry. I am better than that. Because you’re taking my response out of context of what I was responding with.

And I thought you were better than that.

Olvendred.3027:

It’s actually a perfectly valid answer to quite a few complaints.

The first type is for completely optional things in the game. For example, many people (you may be surprised to learn) really, really hated Super Adventure Box, because it was a ‘lame platformer and if I wanted that I’d play Mario’ or because ‘it was immersion breaking and against the aesthetic of the game’ or whatever. These people came on the forums to complain about the existence of SAB. Despite that SAB is completely optional. For them, it’s a perfectly good response to say “go do something else then, SAB doesn’t hurt you, and other people do like it.” Or, in other words, “if you don’t like it, don’t play it.”

This actually touches onto something I wanted to say as soon as I saw this thread…

ArenaNet has done a very good job of generating a wide variety of game modes using the same basic architecture. You have PvP, WvW, open world PvE, dungeons, fractals, and all the various minigames – and this is a good thing. It means that people do have the choice to play the things they enjoy (when they’re available, anyway…) and eschew the things they don’t enjoy.

What infuriates me, though, is when something that is mostly connected to one game mode is then gated behind another. Take world completion, for instance: this is something like 95% pure PvE, but finishing it off will require venturing into WvW (and unless your world is really awesome or you can get in and sneak around during a quiet time, you’ll only be able to finish it once your world has cycled through the colours). So you can get into a situation where you’ve done most of the work towards something, but that last little bit is locked behind something you don’t enjoy.

And at that point, the line “don’t like it, don’t play it” gets a little thin.

I think it’s fine for a game mode to have exclusive rewards – then you can genuinely take the attitude that if you don’t like that mode, you just won’t ever get that reward. I think it’s also fine for it to be easier to achieve a particular reward if you complement different modes together. But I don’t think there should be anything that requires you to partake in different modes… or, worse, that has the overwhelming majority of the work being in one mode that then feels wasted if you don’t partake in the other mode, even if said partaking is about as enjoyable as pulling teeth.

On the general direction this thread has gone: The problem with “don’t like it, don’t play it” responses to criticisms of the game in general (as opposed to being forced to play a disliked game mode for an achievement that you otherwise have 90% done) is that most people criticising the game do like it. And they’re looking to make it better. Some are more, well, constructive than others, and those who are not constructive at all probably do deserve to be shut down, but it’s not a matter of disliking the game as a whole – it’s a matter of liking it enough that they sufficiently care about it to provide feedback.

Some ideas will naturally be better than others, of course, but that can be discussed more intelligently than throwing pithy one-liners at each other.

Another consideration to keep in mind, although experiences vary in this respect, is that some people have seen a noticeable decline in player populations, and are worried that if this isn’t arrested somehow the game they enjoy will end up being a dead game. Mostly, this focuses on things that would make the player in question eager to play more, because sure, ArenaNet has put some focus on getting new players in, but in the long run that well will be tapped out and the game’s survival will rely on keeping people playing.

Ashen.2907:

Its very easy to argue that someone else’s work should be available for free, after all you didnt pay its development costs.

Other people dont care about the LS, but do like gemstore items….should both be free so that everyone gets what is important to them for free?

Of course both actually are. Everything that you argue shod be free is accessible without any real world cost if the player chooses.

thanks for just quoting two lines out of my whole post. Lore is part of making sense of the world you’re in.

Personal story had parts of it erased and parts mixed up, so now it’s confusing rather than linear.
Season 1 got completely erased, leaving a lot of people wondering the hell happened at parts.
Season 2 is pay to access.

Now tell me who will pay for the crucial lore when other parts of lore where mixed up or misplaced? Why not allow the new player to actually know what’s happening, especially when there are zones tied to the story that they will probably visit?

Now compared to gem items, please tell me what kind of weight does your appearance carry in video games? Can you misunderstand the story because you look different? Can you be bad at gameplay because you look different?

Normally there are many important parts to a video game, but story, mechanics and gameplay are the most important ones. If this was a single player video game and old veterans did not remember the personal story being in correct order, did not see Season 1 and didn’t get Season 2 for free, how do you think they would have reacted to this game?

It’s true it’s always used lately by the apologists for anything and everything that’s of concern to the community at large. These apologists simply have no concern for their fellow players and instead of helping the situation they deny it exists at all, so the behavior continues and often becomes worse for the community because the developers are given the false notion that what they are doing is correct and welcome.

When this builds as it has in these forums it eventually becomes a community trend and it does indeed reach out from one game to another to another until it reaches a terrible height.

Take the billing model for example. It started off as a simple currency exchange in which players could purchase currency with real money, as time has gone by and more and more of the farming locations for valuables have been nerfed left and right it’s become near impossible to farm for the items needed. We’ve seen apologist after apologist make it seem like this is okay behavior and that it’s somehow fun to rely solely on the TP for everything to the extent of making the game all about farming gold and nothing but at the end game. So the fun is gone, it’s been proven time and time again that a lack of rewards for time spent in game and a total reliance on the AH in any game no matter the label it’s given can and does destroy populations over time. It becomes no longer a matter of enjoyment but more like a chore to login everyday to try to reach your goal of gold to be able to do the things you find meaningful in the way of progression.

When this occurs in one popular game other popular games eventually have the same things happen to them as developers believe this is what the community as a whole wants. Apologists roaming from title to title will indeed continue the trend until there’s an APEX of ugliness in the mmo community as a whole. I saw this ugliness in Archeage while playing the beta. It was terrible. People who were perfectly willing to buy the prelaunch packages but who were hesitant because of very real and later validated concerns about how the game was being handled were basically thrown to the wolves by apologists. Called all kinds of names, slurs that were usually saved for the poor or homeless were all over the forums simply because people didn’t see the need for everything to be so focused on the store and how much money you spent on the game causing an unfair advantage.

When you let apologists run the show on real and valid concerns and your mods are NOT taking the time to moderate those apologists it eventually becomes a problem that affects all titles in the same genre and the community as a whole suffers for it.

It started here and one of the cries of the apologist is that phrase.