Guild Wars 2

Which stats are you talking about?

By the way, the wiki provides some pretty good info on stats differences between armor rarity: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Common#Quality

Masterwork and Rare stats are decently easy to obtain if you know what you’re doing. Exotics are relatively easy, though not easy as masterwork and rare. Ascended is a bit slow to get, but they’re adding content and stuff for it to be obtained in less repetitive ways.

darkace.8925:

Let me ask you this; what can you do in a 70 gold set of exotic armor that I cannot do in a 5 gold set of rare armor?

Everything you can do, but better, assuming equal skill.

Are you trolling?

Narkosys.5173:

Check out Lindsey Murdocks post.
It will always be upgraded to BIS no matter what is released. This was a response to ascend gear. Where when the patch launched the legendaries had a bump in stats.
They are very much far more than a skin. They are grind proof BIS weapons that will continue to be bumped in perpetuity to match whatever new gear tier is invoked.

That’s not at all what they said. They only promised to increase legendary stats when ascended weapons are introduced (important because ascended gear cannot be transmuted, so you couldn’t transmute ascended stats onto legendary weapons yourself).

And who knows where they’ll take the current mess they’ve introduced with legendary transmutes, or what kind of new issues they’ll introduce once they increase legendary weapons stats (by increasing legendary weapon levels, which may make them non-transmutable again).

Ansultares.1567:

darkace.8925:

Let me ask you this; what can you do in a 70 gold set of exotic armor that I cannot do in a 5 gold set of rare armor?

Everything you can do, but better, assuming equal skill.

I didn’t ask what you could do better in exotic than someone in rare, I asked what you could do in exotic that someone in rare cannot. If grinding for exotic armor is required, as has been stated in this thread, then for what content is it required? I’d like to know exactly what content players donning exotic armor have access to that player in rare armor do not.

Let me make an analogy. A computer is required to play Guild Wars 2. A top-of-the-line computer would be optimal, but a top-of-the-line computer most certainly is NOT required. You can participate in literally any aspect of this game with just rare (or worse) armor. You can’t do so as optimally as if you had exotic armor, but you can still participate at more than a competent level.

Because ALL content is available for anyone regardless of their armor quality, players are IN NO WAY required to grind for anything. They may choose to grind for better armor, but they are absolutely not required to do so. That is a statement of fact. And it’s a point to which the other side has NO counter.

Ansultares.1567:

Are you trolling?

No. Are you?

I never noticed a requirement to grind. I noticed alot of people chose to grind when they didn’t have to do so. I picked up full gear sets with the highest possible stats, just be playing and enjoying the game. Seems some people prefer grinding.

darkace.8925:

Ansultares.1567:

darkace.8925:

Let me ask you this; what can you do in a 70 gold set of exotic armor that I cannot do in a 5 gold set of rare armor?

Everything you can do, but better, assuming equal skill.

I didn’t ask what you could do better in exotic than someone in rare, I asked what you could do in exotic that someone in rare cannot. If grinding for exotic armor is required, as has been stated in this thread, then for what content is it required? I’d like to know exactly what content players donning exotic armor have access to that player in rare armor do not.

Let me make an analogy. A computer is required to play Guild Wars 2. A top-of-the-line computer would be optimal, but a top-of-the-line computer most certainly is NOT required. You can participate in literally any aspect of this game with just rare (or worse) armor. You can’t do so as optimally as if you had exotic armor, but you can still participate at more than a competent level.

Because ALL content is available for anyone regardless of their armor quality, players are IN NO WAY required to grind for anything. They may choose to grind for better armor, but they are absolutely not required to do so. That is a statement of fact. And it’s a point to which the other side has NO counter.

Ansultares.1567:

Are you trolling?

No. Are you?

You’ve lost the argument just accept it…=)

sostronk.8167:

I never noticed a requirement to grind. I noticed alot of people chose to grind when they didn’t have to do so. I picked up full gear sets with the highest possible stats, just be playing and enjoying the game. Seems some people prefer grinding.

And how many hours a day do you play?

Revolution.6301:

You’ve lost the argument just accept it…=)

I know this is a just a joke topic for you, but there’s not a rational person on Earth who would think you’ve presented an argument worthy of anything other than mockery.

Revolution.6301:

darkace.8925:

Ansultares.1567:

darkace.8925:

Let me ask you this; what can you do in a 70 gold set of exotic armor that I cannot do in a 5 gold set of rare armor?

Everything you can do, but better, assuming equal skill.

I didn’t ask what you could do better in exotic than someone in rare, I asked what you could do in exotic that someone in rare cannot. If grinding for exotic armor is required, as has been stated in this thread, then for what content is it required? I’d like to know exactly what content players donning exotic armor have access to that player in rare armor do not.

Let me make an analogy. A computer is required to play Guild Wars 2. A top-of-the-line computer would be optimal, but a top-of-the-line computer most certainly is NOT required. You can participate in literally any aspect of this game with just rare (or worse) armor. You can’t do so as optimally as if you had exotic armor, but you can still participate at more than a competent level.

Because ALL content is available for anyone regardless of their armor quality, players are IN NO WAY required to grind for anything. They may choose to grind for better armor, but they are absolutely not required to do so. That is a statement of fact. And it’s a point to which the other side has NO counter.

Ansultares.1567:

Are you trolling?

No. Are you?

You’ve lost the argument just accept it…=)

I believe you just don’t have anything to argue against what s/he just said. Everything he said stands true. There is MASSIVE difference between NEED and WANT.

You don’t NEED BiS gear to experience all the content GW2 has to offer. You only WANT the gear because, yes it’s optimal, but at the end of the day, it’s still a want because it is not NEEDED to experience the full suite of content GW2 has to offer.

merforga.4731:

Revolution.6301:

darkace.8925:

Ansultares.1567:

darkace.8925:

Let me ask you this; what can you do in a 70 gold set of exotic armor that I cannot do in a 5 gold set of rare armor?

Everything you can do, but better, assuming equal skill.

I didn’t ask what you could do better in exotic than someone in rare, I asked what you could do in exotic that someone in rare cannot. If grinding for exotic armor is required, as has been stated in this thread, then for what content is it required? I’d like to know exactly what content players donning exotic armor have access to that player in rare armor do not.

Let me make an analogy. A computer is required to play Guild Wars 2. A top-of-the-line computer would be optimal, but a top-of-the-line computer most certainly is NOT required. You can participate in literally any aspect of this game with just rare (or worse) armor. You can’t do so as optimally as if you had exotic armor, but you can still participate at more than a competent level.

Because ALL content is available for anyone regardless of their armor quality, players are IN NO WAY required to grind for anything. They may choose to grind for better armor, but they are absolutely not required to do so. That is a statement of fact. And it’s a point to which the other side has NO counter.

Ansultares.1567:

Are you trolling?

No. Are you?

You’ve lost the argument just accept it…=)

I believe you just don’t have anything to argue against what s/he just said. Everything he said stands true. There is MASSIVE difference between NEED and WANT.

You don’t NEED BiS gear to experience all the content GW2 has to offer. You only WANT the gear because, yes it’s optimal, but at the end of the day, it’s still a want because it is not NEEDED to experience the full suite of content GW2 has to offer.

I need the stats.
Doesn’t that count?

And as stated the hardcore might make up part of the player base but the casual is the majority. Keep that in mind.

Revolution.6301:

I need the stats.
Doesn’t that count?

And as stated the hardcore might make up part of the player base but the casual is the majority. Keep that in mind.

Again you are confused. Why do you need the stats? What will an extra couple of points on an exotic give you that will allow you to experience content that you couldn’t experience before?

Let me put it this way:
You might need a car to get from A to B, but do you NEED that $50,000 Turbo charged sports car as opposed to your $2000 Corolla to do the same thing?

merforga.4731:

Revolution.6301:

I need the stats.
Doesn’t that count?

And as stated the hardcore might make up part of the player base but the casual is the majority. Keep that in mind.

Again you are confused. Why do you need the stats? What will an extra couple of points on an exotic give you that will allow you to experience content that you couldn’t experience before?

Let me put it this way:
You might need a car to get from A to B, but do you NEED that $50,000 Turbo charged sports car as opposed to your $2000 Corolla to do the same thing?

Wow. Did you forget Anet said that getting the stats you need would be easy? If your going to argue against that I can’t comment against your non-argument.

Revolution.6301:

Wow. Did you forget Anet said that getting the stats you need would be easy? If your going to argue against that I can’t comment against your non-argument.

Again, you are dodging my question. Why do you need the stats? Why do you need the extra couple of points in stats an exotic gives that a masterwork doesn’t also give? What area of GW2 will this unlock for you that you couldn’t get to before without?

You can get all the stats you need for your character’s level via normal course of play from leveling from 1-80. You just want the optimal stats for your character, which is a luxury, a want. Not a need.

merforga.4731:

Again you are confused. Why do you need the stats? What will an extra couple of points on an exotic give you that will allow you to experience content that you couldn’t experience before?

Let me put it this way:
You might need a car to get from A to B, but do you NEED that $50,000 Turbo charged sports car as opposed to your $2000 Corolla to do the same thing?

You’re wasting your time. He’s being feigning obtuseness just to irritate us.

merforga.4731:

Revolution.6301:

Wow. Did you forget Anet said that getting the stats you need would be easy? If your going to argue against that I can’t comment against your non-argument.

Again, you are dodging my question. Why do you need the stats? Why do you need the extra couple of points in stats an exotic gives that a masterwork doesn’t also give? What area of GW2 will this unlock for you that you couldn’t get to before without?

You can get all the stats you need for your character’s level via normal course of play from leveling from 1-80. You just want the optimal stats for your character, which is a luxury, a want. Not a need.

^This

darkace.8925:

I didn’t ask what you could do better in exotic than someone in rare, I asked what you could do in exotic that someone in rare cannot.

The game only restricts content based on level; what’s to stop someone from wearing full whites? Or, what’s to stop someone from wearing just a weapon set and nothing else? The game does not prevent it, so it must be legit, right?

merforga.4731:

Again, you are dodging my question. Why do you need the stats? Why do you need the extra couple of points in stats an exotic gives that a masterwork doesn’t also give? What area of GW2 will this unlock for you that you couldn’t get to before without?

I couldn’t tell you, because I never bothered to handicap myself in that way.

But, any time I survived with some small sliver of health is a ready made candidate.

kenshinakh.3672:

I ran AC all 3 paths, once a day, for less than a week to get most of my AC gear. If I mixed in other dungeons, then I could have “grinded” less in AC.

It took alot of QQ to reach that point. It’s certainly not as though Anet looked at the formerly insane dungeon grind and set about reducing it all on their own.

It used to be 3 paths a day for the better part of a month (or abuse an exploit of one path several hours per day for one to two weeks). That was their original design, back when their pre-release statements might have actually meant something to them.

Okay so far everyone has avoided this.

Anet said getting stats would be easy not expensive.

Argue against this to your hearts content. This is what they said. If you don’t answer this then you don’t have an argument for this thread; start your own hardcore thread instead.

Define “easy”? The whole debate here centers around “easy”. To me, it’s “easy”, to you, it’s not “easy”, to Anet it’s a different “easy”.

There’s no easy way to debate on the exact words Anet said because “easy” might not actually be “easy”, while it might actually be entirely too “easy” to others.

kenshinakh.3672:

Define “easy”? The whole debate here centers around “easy”. To me, it’s “easy”, to you, it’s not “easy”, to Anet it’s a different “easy”.

There’s no easy way to debate on the exact words Anet said because “easy” might not actually be “easy”, while it might actually be entirely too “easy” to others.

To be fair, the statement they made about it being “easy” was just some nonsense fluff. Economics kept the price of exotics low enough at release to qualify as “easy,” and there was enough activity in WvW/Orr to pick up karma exotics “easily,” but the dungeons were a laughable grind that only changed in response to massive QQ. Meanwhile, fewer suppliers has resulted in an increase in exotic prices on the TP, and less activity in WvW/Orr have extended the karma grind quite significantly (the Orr temple part being the scariest; sucks to have that karma and no access to the vendor).

But yeah, it’s like they channeled the soul of Paul Barnett, and said some really cool sounding things during development, only to backtrack with the release.

Revolution.6301:

Okay so far everyone has avoided this.

Anet said getting stats would be easy not expensive.

They never said that. You’re reinventing reality in your own mind. They said you wouldn’t need to grind to have fun. And you don’t. If having BiS stats are the only way you can enjoy the game, then that’s a you problem, not an ArenaNet problem.

By the way, “getting stats” is as easy as dropping a few silver on white gear. You need to put more thought into what it is you’re typing before you click “Reply”.

darkace.8925:

If having BiS stats are the only way you can enjoy the game, then that’s a you problem, not an ArenaNet problem.

Ha. I would love to hear them say that during one of their developer meetings.

Always blaming the players…

Ansultares.1567:

Always blaming the players…

In this case? Absolutely. The “Waaah! I’m required to put forth effort to obtain the best gear in the game!? They lied to me! This game sucks!” attitude being displayed by the TC certainly isn’t the developer’s fault.

Well, back on topic.

1. Legendary weapon grind
-You don’t neccesarily have to grind for it. I estimated that in 6-12 months of casual play, I’ll have most the things I need to craft it, provided that I’m saving up little by little. Of course, I can grind and get it in 2-3 months, but I’ll take the more relaxing route.

2. Gold Grind
-Leveling to 80 on your character can get up to 10-20G from my experience.
-You can earn close to 1g every dungeon run. My average AC runs are 30 minutes, so it’s pretty fast. Do all 3 paths will get me probably 2-3g. But, let’s not grind and repeat AC 20x a day. So spread it over a week, and you can probably get close if not more than 20G a week. So, estimated time of getting full gear that is worth 100g, about a month of casual gameplay. (It took me a week though because the looks I wanted are not T3 culture gear or anything that expensive… I spent 10g max on my stuff for one character. 30G on another since I wanted T3 culture shoulders lol).

2. Karma Gear
-By the time I reached 80, I have at least 100k karma on my characters. After1 week of doing whatever I do (I didn’t bother keeping track of karma), I have at least 300k on one character. Keep in mind, I have a huge stockpile of karma jugs and all those jugs saved up. I’ll use those with karma boosters when I see fit.

I don’t exactly “feel” the grind because when I decided to play this game, I told myself that I’m staying on this game for at least 1-2 years. (I was on a 3 year hiatus from gaming lol). But my old friends wanted to me to get back with them, so that’s that.

Oh, and I’m definitely a casual player, since I am a full time university student, and I got 3 part time jobs. I could manage usually an hour or more a day if I want and cram gaming in the weekends lol.

It’s not even that much effort that is needed either. If you are looking for a particular look, that might take a bit more time and effort. But for the “stats”, it’s relatively simple and not much effort at all.

I know it’s all relative but look at some of the other mmos that have been out for the past 10 years and you’ll realize how good you have it here (in regards to gear for time/effort).

darkace.8925:

Ansultares.1567:

Always blaming the players…

In this case? Absolutely. The “Waaah! I’m required to put forth effort to obtain the best gear in the game!? They lied to me! This game sucks!” attitude being displayed by the TC certainly isn’t the developer’s fault.

You’d have a point if they hadn’t made statements to the effect that max stats would be readily attainable, in conjunction with claims that you can play how you want (what a vague statement that one is), and if they weren’t riding precedent they set with their previous game (and arguably one of it’s stronger, or at least more distinguishing, features).

To be honest, my initial reaction to the OP was not far off from yours. That’s why I avoided commenting until the thread had gained some traction; admittedly, I couldn’t help myself from making my statement on page 2, but it was off-topic to the original discussion.

Anyway, it’s one thing for you or I to hold or share your opinion; it’s entirely different for Anet to do so. They need to focus on keeping as many people interested in the game as possible, and blaming the player starts them down some slippery slopes.

Ansultares.1567:

darkace.8925:

Ansultares.1567:

Always blaming the players…

In this case? Absolutely. The “Waaah! I’m required to put forth effort to obtain the best gear in the game!? They lied to me! This game sucks!” attitude being displayed by the TC certainly isn’t the developer’s fault.

You’d have a point if they hadn’t made statements to the effect that max stats would be readily attainable, in conjunction with claims that you can play how you want (what a vague statement that one is), and if they weren’t riding precedent they set with their previous game (and arguably one of it’s stronger, or at least more distinguishing, features).

To be honest, my initial reaction to the OP was not far off from yours. That’s why I avoided commenting until the thread had gained some traction; admittedly, I couldn’t help myself from making my statement on page 2, but it was off-topic to the original discussion.

Anyway, it’s one thing for you or I to hold or share your opinion; it’s entirely different for Anet to do so. They need to focus on keeping as many people interested in the game as possible, and blaming the player starts them down some slippery slopes.

Thank-you.

You said what I have tried with difficulty to say. They said that stats would be readily attaintable. That cosmetic would be the grind. I’m FINE with that grind, even though even that grind needs to toned down a bit. By adding in ascended gear how is it easily attainable?

Grinding is the core mechanic of every mmo. If you do not want to grind do not play mmos. The goal in every mmo is to have the highest number in something, either it is the highest gold or highest attack or most achievment-points or the fastest arah-run, you name it. And these things will only be aquired trough grinding and skill and time.
There are exceptions of course like first server clear of an instance and stuff, but in general these are one-time events and do not affect the big playerbase.

If you disagree with this statement ( core mechanic = grind ) you never really played any other mmo, in the end you will repeat some task over and over again just to get your number a bit higher.

That being said I think guildwars 2 is doing an awesome job in keeping the grind fun for the things that they are promoting.
As it has been said earlier in this thread when you reach level 80 you should be able to buy at least the start-gear for dungeons and then quickly should be able to get exotic. If it takes you more than 2 weeks you are doing something wrong. And that is grinding yes, but if you don’t overdo it, e.g. farming cof p1 for 5h a day like I did for a week, you should be fine. If you can not handle a little non-fun stuff to get to the things you wan’t you shouldn’t be playing an mmo.

If you play for some other reason, like exploring the world ( something I like very much ), you will find an end to this after some time and then there is nothing to left. Not so about the things I mentioned earlier, you will not really come to an end of those ( achievments points ofc but this will be very hard ).

And a lost note to op. Why do you need 100g for your ideal build what are you buying? Also you can not tell me that you need 100g and ascended gear and karma-gear at the same time. How many armor-sets are you buying with that?

Nozdrum.2894:

Grinding is the core mechanic of every mmo. If you do not want to grind do not play mmos. The goal in every mmo is to have the highest number in something, either it is the highest gold or highest attack or most achievment-points or the fastest arah-run, you name it. And these things will only be aquired trough grinding and skill and time.
There are exceptions of course like first server clear of an instance and stuff, but in general these are one-time events and do not affect the big playerbase.

If you disagree with this statement ( core mechanic = grind ) you never really played any other mmo, in the end you will repeat some task over and over again just to get your number a bit higher.

That being said I think guildwars 2 is doing an awesome job in keeping the grind fun for the things that they are promoting.
As it has been said earlier in this thread when you reach level 80 you should be able to buy at least the start-gear for dungeons and then quickly should be able to get exotic. If it takes you more than 2 weeks you are doing something wrong. And that is grinding yes, but if you don’t overdo it, e.g. farming cof p1 for 5h a day like I did for a week, you should be fine. If you can not handle a little non-fun stuff to get to the things you wan’t you shouldn’t be playing an mmo.

If you play for some other reason, like exploring the world ( something I like very much ), you will find an end to this after some time and then there is nothing to left. Not so about the things I mentioned earlier, you will not really come to an end of those ( achievments points ofc but this will be very hard ).

And a lost note to op. Why do you need 100g for your ideal build what are you buying? Also you can not tell me that you need 100g and ascended gear and karma-gear at the same time. How many armor-sets are you buying with that?

Don’t dodge the arugment.

Anet said that stats should grind-free.
100G included the cost if I wanted armor that looked and had the stats. If you read my posts then if you have any armor regardless of looks it is still 70G.

Ascended was added because now ascended is the top gear. And the stats from that should be easily attainable.

Fractals introduction was a turning point for me….

Legendary Weapons were OK… it was something for the die hard player…a reward worthy or their effort. I was fine with it.

Now with the gear grind… GW2 just became another Wow wannabe. They were doing so well up to that point.

I play because it’s free and at any moment I can leave… perhaps never come back… and it’s not going to cost me a dime either way. I’ll give Anet that much credit.

Otherwise… it’s disappointing, but not entirely unexpected. Why it’s noble and courageous of the Developers to create a game that’s not a Wow clone at heart. Wow fanbois do number in the 10’s of Millions… to attract their business… one must make sacrifices.

Certainly my dime alone won’t pay anyone’s salary!

I’m sure GW2 will be another LOTRO for me… a game I can revisit for little while… and then leave again to spend $$/cash on something else. There’s nothing here worth investing in anymore.

Dhar.6392:

Fractals introduction was a turning point for me….

Legendary Weapons were OK… it was something for the die hard player…a reward worthy or their effort. I was fine with it.

Now with the gear grind… GW2 just became another Wow wannabe. They were doing so well up to that point.

I play because it’s free and at any moment I can leave… perhaps never come back… and it’s not going to cost me a dime either way. I’ll give Anet that much credit.

Otherwise… it’s disappointing, but not entirely unexpected. Why it’s noble and courageous of the Developers to create a game that’s not a Wow clone at heart. Wow fanbois do number in the 10’s of Millions… to attract their business… one must make sacrifices.

Certainly my dime alone won’t pay anyone’s salary!

I’m sure GW2 will be another LOTRO for me… a game I can revisit for little while… and then leave again to spend $$/cash on something else. There’s nothing here worth investing in anymore.

I hope that isn’t Gw2’s future. Have hope man. But it is leaning way to towards a WoW hardcore’s fantasy.

Well even look at the people arguing. They believe spending 3-5 hours min. a day is ‘casual’ or ‘normal’.

And thank you so much for seeing the issues as what they are! =)

Revolution"

Gold Grind – you need atleast 100 gold for the ideal build and armor you want.

Only two words for this statement: Utter nonsense.

As for the grinding: With a few dungeon runs (20 of them) you have enough tokens to buy exotic items on all armor slots of your character which means you have more than enough power statistics wise to tackle any problem in the game because the vast majority of battles in GW2 are much more skill based (proper skill use, proper use of dodge etc) than they are gear based. The only exception being the fractals due to the agony-factor.

This game does have grinding, albeit to a much smaller degree than other past or present MMOs, but it’s only part of your gameplay if you choose to pursue something actively. You didn’t expect Legendary items to just grow on trees now did you? The items are sought after and cool because it takes skill and effort to get them but they are not a necessary part of the game.

I don’t have a Legendary yet and it doesn’t diminish my enjoyment in the game in the slightest. Imo your obsession with ‘getting stuff’ stands in the way of you actually enjoying the game’s gameplay.

Ansultares.1567:

You’d have a point if they hadn’t made statements to the effect that max stats would be readily attainable

They never said “max” stats would be readily available; they said we wouldn’t have to run gear treadmills. And we don’t have to. Sure, we can grind away in an effort to obtain the most desirable gear in the game, but we can also participate in and enjoy every aspect this game has to offer without it. That’s what they meant when they said we wouldn’t have to grind to enjoy the game. I think a lot of people have greatly misconstrued what they said,

Ansultares.1567:

Anyway, it’s one thing for you or I to hold or share your opinion; it’s entirely different for Anet to do so. They need to focus on keeping as many people interested in the game as possible, and blaming the player starts them down some slippery slopes.

If a game developer tries to please everyone, they’ll ultimately please no one. Keeping as many people interested in the game as possible is certainly ArenaNet’s goal, but there’s a fundamental problem with that goal. There are too many players looking for too different things out of their MMO.

Hardcore players want to the best gear to be difficult to obtain, but casual players want a chance to obtain the best gear too. Skilled players want to be challenged by the game, but bad players don’t want to be left behind. Open world PvP’ers enjoy the thrill of hunting other players, but PvE’ers want to go about their business without being ganked.

Perfectly appeasing all of these people is impossible. You can shoot for a balance and please many of them, but you will never please all of them. There are a lot of player who need that carrot dangling from the end of the stick to keep their interest piqued. And ArenaNet has given them those carrots in the form of exotic and legendary equipment. But they’ve also given those who don’t wish to chase the carrot the freedom to enjoy every aspect of the game without them. Let me reiterate that, because that’s the important part.

There is not one single aspect of this game in which you cannot participate if you do not own exotic or legendary equipment.

That is a statement of fact. And because of that truth, the statement that the game requires grinding must be false.

Revolution.6301:

Anet said that stats should grind-free.

When did they say that? Where did they say that? Cite an interview. Quote a developer. Link an article. Give us something of substance. Go on, we’ll wait.

Revolution.6301:

Well even look at the people arguing. They believe spending 3-5 hours min. a day is ‘casual’ or ‘normal’.

Funny, I’ve never thought of time played as a measure of “casual” or “hardcore”. I’ve always defined a “casual player” as someone who enjoys the game with little concern over obtaining the best gear available and a “hardcore player” as someone who is driven by the need to obtain the best gear available.

Dhar.6392:

Fractals introduction was a turning point for me….

Legendary Weapons were OK… it was something for the die hard player…a reward worthy or their effort. I was fine with it.

Now with the gear grind… GW2 just became another Wow wannabe. They were doing so well up to that point.

Basically, this. I was fine with the cosmetic legendary grind. I really only began questioning the direction of the game when ascended was introduced. Before that my biggest concerns were culling and that obnoxious stealth+burst design of thieves.

In my opinion, this game has no grind that I don’t chose to do. So nope, it doesn’t have too much grind, it’s just right in that field.

darkace.8925:

Ansultares.1567:

You’d have a point if they hadn’t made statements to the effect that max stats would be readily attainable

They never said “max” stats would be readily available; they said we wouldn’t have to run gear treadmills. And we don’t have to. Sure, we can grind away in an effort to obtain the most desirable gear in the game, but we can also participate in and enjoy every aspect this game has to offer without it. That’s what they meant when they said we wouldn’t have to grind to enjoy the game. I think a lot of people have greatly misconstrued what they said,

Ansultares.1567:

Anyway, it’s one thing for you or I to hold or share your opinion; it’s entirely different for Anet to do so. They need to focus on keeping as many people interested in the game as possible, and blaming the player starts them down some slippery slopes.

If a game developer tries to please everyone, they’ll ultimately please no one. Keeping as many people interested in the game as possible is certainly ArenaNet’s goal, but there’s a fundamental problem with that goal. There are too many players looking for too different things out of their MMO.

Hardcore players want to the best gear to be difficult to obtain, but casual players want a chance to obtain the best gear too. Skilled players want to be challenged by the game, but bad players don’t want to be left behind. Open world PvP’ers enjoy the thrill of hunting other players, but PvE’ers want to go about their business without being ganked.

Perfectly appeasing all of these people is impossible. You can shoot for a balance and please many of them, but you will never please all of them. There are a lot of player who need that carrot dangling from the end of the stick to keep their interest piqued. And ArenaNet has given them those carrots in the form of exotic and legendary equipment. But they’ve also given those who don’t wish to chase the carrot the freedom to enjoy every aspect of the game without them. Let me reiterate that, because that’s the important part.

There is not one single aspect of this game in which you cannot participate if you do not own exotic or legendary equipment.

That is a statement of fact. And because of that truth, the statement that the game requires grinding must be false.

First: your logic is flawed in your last statement. Grind is a very subjective thing and is not tied to exotic or legendary equipment.

However it is definitely true that you can not please everyone and it is also true that trying to please everyone will in the end please no one.
As such the introduction of ascended gear did precisely that.
Catering to a very small vocal minority of elitists forgoing their most valued customers: casuals and loyal GW1 fans by breaking their promises of how max stat gear should be available: trough many means, not by doing one dungeon over and over. Sure they r trying to mend that but in the end it ll turn out as:
Either the gear will take too long to obtain and will require too much time invested for casuals and they will be unhappy. (state after nov 15)
Or the gear will (most likely) be relatively easily obtainable trough many different means thus making the elitists unhappy by resetting the treadmill. (state in near future)

At which point a new tier can be introduced to again “fix” this “problem”. ANET had the solution in GW1 yet they decided to go back to a broken system and yet another game is ruined by vertical progression, gear grind and treadmills.

You may argue that i do not need exotics or ascended gear to experience the game but i can just as well argue that you dont need ascended gear either. If i dont need the carrot why should you?
Finally this is not a matter of gating content but the fact that this system devalues everyones efforts of obtaining previous max stat gear. Those who realize this are already unhappy. Those who dont will at some point reach the same conclusion. A gear treadmill is a gear treadmill. You get gear. That gear is now not what you wanted (for whatever reason). You get new gear. Repeat.

Ascended isn’t fully fleshed out yet. So I wouldn’t be so quick to judge.

If you look at what Anet has been adding and tweaking about that, soon ascended will be like how you jump from Rares to Exotics. It’s like a small jump, definitely not vertical progression.

Plus, they said they planned ascended before the release, but didn’t have time to implement it. If they had it back at release, I’m pretty sure people would not have the same reaction as some have now.

kenshinakh.3672:

Ascended isn’t fully fleshed out yet. So I wouldn’t be so quick to judge.

If you look at what Anet has been adding and tweaking about that, soon ascended will be like how you jump from Rares to Exotics. It’s like a small jump, definitely not vertical progression.

Plus, they said they planned ascended before the release, but didn’t have time to implement it. If they had it back at release, I’m pretty sure people would not have the same reaction as some have now.

Any “jump” is already vertical progression.

As for the “we planned it before release” nonsense:
A PR spin that i m really sick of and could discuss at length but there is no point in it since it either means the game wasnt done and we were lied to on how max stat gear was going to be obtained or (more likely) the games direction and the philosophy of the game changed shortly before release. People would have exactly the same reaction because ANET did not in any way shape or form explain and justify ascended gear besides the sentence “we listened to people”.

darkace.8925:

Sure, we can grind away in an effort to obtain the most desirable gear in the game, but we can also participate in and enjoy every aspect this game has to offer without it.

What game was this not possible in? Excluding end-game raiding, which GW2 doesn’t offer in the first place; I wouldn’t call offering less content a win. I guess the marketing department might spin it as such, but I’d hope the developers aren’t so naive.

Cerise.9045:

Yes, you can always not grind and do absolutely nothing, and that applies to both games. Your definition of optional is really warped. When doing something and quitting are the only two options, then doing something can’t really be considered optional to playing the game. It’s like saying shooting things is optional in call of duty. Yes you can play call of duty without shooting things, you just won’t go anywhere.

Cerise.9045:

When doing something and quitting are the only two options,

…What in the kitten…?

Yeah, I think this says everything I needed to know about you. You’re one of those kids aren’t you? The “Call of Duty” generation. So formatted and creatively barren that the only way you know how to “have fun” is by having the computer constantly flashing “DING! YOU’RE DOING STUFF! HERE’S A … SOMETHING!” at your face. You’re not really having fun mind you, you’re just doing a chore you’ve come to accept as “having fun”. You don’t really care what you’re doing so long as it comes with some arbitrary fireworks saying “atta’ boy!”, “good girl!”. You don’t do things because you like them, you do things for external reward. There’s no trace of intrinsic motivation.

So there’s only grind or quit in this game? What the kitten game are you playing? See, I’m playing GW2. In this game, while there are some end game limitations, there’s definitely things that people can do and enjoy other than kittening grinding.

I’ve personally spent hours just discovering the land. It’s a massive, and fairly detailed at that. You can learn about the land and the people, the lore you could say, read about it in the libraries or talk to the NPCs to learn more about the zone. Exploration is worthwhile on its own in this game.

You also have all the varied instances, which you can do for reasons other than “grinding kittening tokens”. They have a story mode and, while some are more interesting than others, they’re generally interesting enough to explore.

You have WvW, where I’ve personally spent entire days not only exploring the land but my own builds as well. Testing, tweaking, adjusting, rebuilding my builds and strategies. Joining massive zergs or going on small group raids.

You can go to sPvP, which I haven’t fully explored yet. You can do this at any time, with no need for anything even remotely resembling gear or level grind at all, ever. Everyone’s level 80, with everything unlocked, and max stats gear freely available.

You can do jumping puzzles, ranging from “very easy” to “stupid, random and unfair” (kitten you Gryphoon Rook Run), and even some quite clever that involve no jumping at all (<3 to whomever thought of the lab one).

…I could go on, stuff like crafting and playing the market, but I think I made my point. There’s so much kitten you CAN do OTHER than gear grinding. Yes, you can work at acquiring more expensive but better looking gear. I’ve done some of that too, I’m ok with it in moderation, but there’s so much more to do that isn’t that…

If you can’t find anything else to do than “grind or quit”, I’m afraid that’s entirely your fault, not the game’s.

ProxyDamage.9826:

Exploration is worthwhile on its own in this game.

Been there, done that, got a title for it. The lore never pulled me in, but I’m willing to say the fact that I didn’t play GW1 plays a role in this (those awful cutscenes don’t help, but I’m thankful they saw the need to prioritize and felt cutscenes were low on the list).

ProxyDamage.9826:

You also have all the varied instances, which you can do for reasons other than “grinding kittening tokens”. They have a story mode and, while some are more interesting than others, they’re generally interesting enough to explore.

Pretty much did all of those, and the ones I didn’t I really had no interest in (I did love me some SE before they took a hammer to the place for no reason other than they could).

ProxyDamage.9826:

You have WvW, where I’ve personally spent entire days not only exploring the land but my own builds as well. Testing, tweaking, adjusting, rebuilding my builds and strategies. Joining massive zergs or going on small group raids.

Done and done. Sadly, they’re taking it in the opposite direction of where I think it should go; they’re sticking with one week matches, and looking at longer ones, while I think shorter matches structured in some sort of season formatting would have been far better given the relative lack of individual goals in WvW. Even DAoC needed realm ranks to keep people interested.

ProxyDamage.9826:

You can go to sPvP, which I haven’t fully explored yet. You can do this at any time, with no need for anything even remotely resembling gear or level grind at all, ever. Everyone’s level 80, with everything unlocked, and max stats gear freely available.

Skipped. I normally love boxed PvP, and rely on it for 100 hours or more of playtime in other MMOs, but sPvP really fell flat. I don’t know if it’s the extreme lack of maps, the level/gear normalization or the poor class balance, but I never found sPvP appealing in the slightest.

This was most shocking when I found myself one day start reciting Huttball quotes.

ProxyDamage.9826:

You can do jumping puzzles, ranging from “very easy” to “stupid, random and unfair” (kitten you Gryphoon Rook Run), and even some quite clever that involve no jumping at all (<3 to whomever thought of the lab one).

See: world exploration. They were fun though, along with the mini-dungeons.

ProxyDamage.9826:

…I could go on, stuff like crafting and playing the market, but I think I made my point.

I don’t do either; crafting is extremely shallow (so typical these days), and I sadly don’t play MMOs to stack currency, much to my detriment.

Just running down this list, I’d say the area for greatest improvement would be sPvP; tPvP is fine with the level/gear normalization, and anyone tackling tPvP would be better skilled them me and less phased by class balance, but greatly expanding the sPvP map offerings and allowing me to use my acquired gear in sPvP are two huge improvements they could make.

for people that doesn t read blogposts…

Just remember that after 15 nov legendaries had ASCENDED stats…

So not only they stated in official posts but already prepared the upgrade….that was early released by mistake…..

So yes legendaries are best in slot….best tier etc.

It basically comes down to this :

- If you’re playing for the reward, then its a grind. It’s become about the destination rather than the journey. Game quit now, nothing good can come of it.
- If you’re playing for the fun of playing and end up getting a reward, then it’s not a grind. It’s all about the journey, getting there actually makes the fun end. You don’t want that.

I have my 30 AR from FotM. I still did my daily last night. Ran it at level 32, in a pug, in like 1h and 15 minutes (that’s not casual enough ? wha … ?). Had a freaking blast, and we had to do Volcano for our 3rd and got stuck with Bloomhunger instead of Mossman on our 2nd (though I’ve finally found the perfect skill combo on my thief for it and a nice solid tree that hides me well). Downed the shaman on first attempt, even though it wasn’t the cleanest kill I’ve seen (a little hiccup at the start).

And you know what ? I’ll probably go do my daily on 34 today. Even though any drops at this point (don’t care for the Fractal weapon skins and all my rings/backpiece are (infused)) are purely a waste of space in my bank. That’s because I actually enjoy this content. It’s not mindless, it requires you think, swap skills varying on encounters and it’s challenging. Every game is different (3 different fractals with different class makeup each time) and it’s puggeable in under 15 minutes with gw2lfg.com, moreso with the recent improvements.

I know for me, Crafting is going to be a huge grind while leveling it. In every other MMO I have played I had no problem keeping up with my crafting while leveling up my character just using the stuff I naturally get while playing. But with this game, I never have anywhere near enough fine materials to level up my crafting, compound that with the fact that we get very low amount of money while playing naturally (I salvage white gear, vendor sell fine and above, and sell Fine and above on TP when I can make more then what the vendor buys it at).

It looks like that if I want to keep my crafting updated based on my current character level, I will have to do a massive amount of grinding, otherwise I will have to wait till I am level 80 making more money so I can buy the mats on the TP to level my crafting from 125 at level 80 -.-

Ansultares.1567:

Dhar.6392:

Fractals introduction was a turning point for me….

Legendary Weapons were OK… it was something for the die hard player…a reward worthy or their effort. I was fine with it.

Now with the gear grind… GW2 just became another Wow wannabe. They were doing so well up to that point.

Basically, this. I was fine with the cosmetic legendary grind. I really only began questioning the direction of the game when ascended was introduced. Before that my biggest concerns were culling and that obnoxious stealth+burst design of thieves.

That’s true. Ascended gear created a whole slew of ploblems because the only way to get them was to do FOTM aload of times which no matter how you slice it is grind.

Raf.1078:

Nappychappy.7046:

Evolving? Game is less than 6 months old, obvious bait and switch is obvious.

@ Raf.1078

That’s a lot of work for chump change.

But I enjoy the journey, chump.

You lead a pretty sheltered life if doing that is a journey.

Raf.1078:

Nappychappy.7046:

Evolving? Game is less than 6 months old, obvious bait and switch is obvious.

@ Raf.1078

That’s a lot of work for chump change.

But I enjoy the journey, chump.

You lead a pretty sheltered life if doing that is a journey.

—Strage—
An Error Prevented Saving:
Flood Control: Please wait 20 seconds between posts!

I took a dump after last post, how am I flooding?

Revolution.6301:

That’s true. Ascended gear created a whole slew of ploblems because the only way to get them was to do FOTM aload of times which no matter how you slice it is grind.

Sorry, FotM is fun as heck. It’s not a grind at all. It’s puggeable, the challenge goes up everytime unless you fail a run, there’s new mechanics being introduced at higher levels, more mobs to control.

I have tons of fun doing FotM. The Ascended stuff I got was just icing. I still do FotM even though I need 0 drops from there. Just for the heck of it.

If that is grinding, seriously, folks, go run Molten Core just once.

Revolution.6301:

sostronk.8167:

I never noticed a requirement to grind. I noticed alot of people chose to grind when they didn’t have to do so. I picked up full gear sets with the highest possible stats, just be playing and enjoying the game. Seems some people prefer grinding.

And how many hours a day do you play?

i have had a full set off exotics for some time now AND also have changed out a few parts for stats that fit my build better.

I only ever play for a few hours on my 2 day’s off, and if i have time i may log on for an hour after work SOME TIME’s

i am by no means rich but I also dont have anything to spend my cash on other than a few waypoints and some gear repairs when i need them.

if it dosnt lock you out of content than its not a grind.

UnderdogSMO.9428:

Revolution.6301:

sostronk.8167:

I never noticed a requirement to grind. I noticed alot of people chose to grind when they didn’t have to do so. I picked up full gear sets with the highest possible stats, just be playing and enjoying the game. Seems some people prefer grinding.

And how many hours a day do you play?

i have had a full set off exotics for some time now AND also have changed out a few parts for stats that fit my build better.

I only ever play for a few hours on my 2 day’s off, and if i have time i may log on for an hour after work SOME TIME’s

i am by no means rich but I also dont have anything to spend my cash on other than a few waypoints and some gear repairs when i need them.

if it dosnt lock you out of content than its not a grind.

Okay same argument that you and everyone else like you has avoided. ANET CLAIMED that stats would be easy to get.

To anyone else that will be like the guy above how does radically changing the above not mean this game is grind?
And avoiding the question only means that you know that the so called casuals are in right.

Revolution.6301:

Okay same argument that you and everyone else like you has avoided. ANET CLAIMED that stats would be easy to get.

And they are. /end thread already.