Guild Wars 2

It sounds so reasonable when you put it like that, Myrina. :P

(I cannot speak for high-level fractals because I haven’t done them)

I can vouch personally that it’s possible to make it to at least fractal level 18 with no Agony Resistance and without full exotics.

Tolmos.8395:

Heijincks.9267:

By the time ascended is fully released, it’ll be easier to obtain, and definitely not just through the current methods. Or at least we hope.

You are being WAY too optimistic there. >_> They have given no reason to believe that the rate of grind to receive items will change just because more are released. Atm, it takes between 20-60 days to get 3 items. Expect similar rates for the remaining ones.

That’s the point of a grind. It wouldn’t be a very good one if they made the items easy to get.

I’m being more realistic than optimistic. First of all, we know for a fact laurels can be obtained other than doing dailies and monthlies somewhere down the road. That might cut down that “20-60 days” to “15-45” days. Secondly, given other methods to be established for obtaining ascended, that means there’s only more ways to do so, thereby also increasing the rate in which you can get it.

Lastly, everything is grindy to a certain extent. I don’t know if you think doing dailies is grindy though (I sure don’t).

Myrina.4658:

If you try to remove the stats from the ascended gear at this point, you’ll only trade one group of angry players for another. If adding ascended gear to the game was a mistake (and I’m not saying it was or it wasn’t, personally I’m on the fence), I think the only fair way to correct it at this point is to add the gear to other vendors. Put it on the karma and the WvW badge vendors at an increased cost compared to exotic gear, and then everyone has access according to his or her playstyle. From that point, you could keep any further vertical progression in the fractals limited to increased agony resistance via new infusions.

I’m thinking maybe ANet can minimize the number of angry players by changing WvW to sPvP style gearing, but with free transmutes for PvE armor skins. The raiders and traditional MMO endgame players can have their gear treadmill, while WvW players can freely experiment with different builds without grinding.

Czar Peter.7961:

Myrina.4658:

If you try to remove the stats from the ascended gear at this point, you’ll only trade one group of angry players for another. If adding ascended gear to the game was a mistake (and I’m not saying it was or it wasn’t, personally I’m on the fence), I think the only fair way to correct it at this point is to add the gear to other vendors. Put it on the karma and the WvW badge vendors at an increased cost compared to exotic gear, and then everyone has access according to his or her playstyle. From that point, you could keep any further vertical progression in the fractals limited to increased agony resistance via new infusions.

I’m thinking maybe ANet can minimize the number of angry players by changing WvW to sPvP style gearing, but with free transmutes for PvE armor skins. The raiders and traditional MMO endgame players can have their gear treadmill, while WvW players can freely experiment with different builds without grinding.

If they are going to do this, I’d prefer it if the loadout includes stats on armor, weapons, and 6 accessories instead of what we see in sPvP. That way stats can be more diversified which also implies more diversity in builds.

250 t6 mats + 50 ectos for the best in slot back slot is a grind, you can grind fotm also.
20 dailies + monthly=1 Amulet
10 Fotm dailies OR 25 dailies + monthly= one ring.

And this is just for four pieces

Czar Peter.7961:

I’m thinking maybe ANet can minimize the number of angry players by changing WvW to sPvP style gearing, but with free transmutes for PvE armor skins. The raiders and traditional MMO endgame players can have their gear treadmill, while WvW players can freely experiment with different builds without grinding.

I absolutely do not desire an actual gear treadmill of any kind, I am completely inflexible in this regard and will leave the game without hesitation if one is introduced.

I suppose I have no problem with people being able to make dedicated level 80 WvW characters though. shrug It was ANet’s intent that WvW lie between PvE and the even playing field of structured PvP, meaning that it was somewhere your progression mattered (you can level up playing it, after all), but not as much as traditional PvE. The hardcore that had no interest in PvE whatsoever got screwed by this philosophy and if it would get some portion of the playerbase to stop spending so much time panicking, that would be fine.

Michael.7943:

250 t6 mats + 50 ectos for the best in slot back slot is a grind, you can grind fotm also.
20 dailies + monthly=1 Amulet
10 Fotm dailies OR 25 dailies + monthly= one ring.

And this is just for four pieces

This is just four pieces and they’re the ONLY pieces available at this time. So in three months you can get ALL the gear you need pretty easily, without that much effort. The daily can’t be called a grind because you can get it doing different things. The fractals probably could be a grind, unless you do what I do and like do them every now and then when you feel like it.

See the fractals came out in November, and it’s now February. You could have rings and stuff from the fractals without grinding them, if you just do them every now and again as part of the stuff there is to do.

I don’t grind dungeons, but I’ve managed to complete most of them. Actually I’m only up to level 8 fractals, because I kept going back to help guildies get their early ones done. But I still haven’t grinded.

See grinding is a state of mind as much as anything else. I’ll play more normal game and in the next couple of months, I’ll have my ascended gear.

But even if I didn’t have that gear, it wouldn’t change the game for me, so the grind isn’t required. I don’t have a single piece of ascended gear right now and I’m doing all the stuff I used to do.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Revolution.6301:

silvermember.8941:

Revolution.6301:

Mackdose.6504:

Algreg.3629:

ProtoGunner.4953:

Not really, as soon as I hit lvl80 on a new alt, I can use all the jugs and drops of karma to spend it on exotics or just buy it with the tokens I got from dungeons. Since I have my legendary, I don’t play THAT much. Maybe 2 hours a day. Maybe 6-7 dungeon runs in a week. It is EASILY I really mean EASILY achievable to get exotic gear. I never, ever, EVER understand people complaining about gear treadmill. The few ascended items are easy to get. If you have problems, shut up and go play your casual mobile game.

Edit: You need a bit effort to achieve something, if not, games like MMOs (and honestl,y most PC and console games I played) are nothihng for you. I really can’t stand the whining anymore, it is just ridiculous.

one might say applying the attribute “only” to devoting almost 2 full work days a week to GW2 while implying that it must have been a lot more before aquiring casually mentioned 2 legendaries doesn´t make you really the go-to-guy regarding the judgement of in game timeframes. Do not misunderstand me, your playing habits are your thing and totally fine by me, I devote a lot of time to games myself, but that is hardly a reasonable perspective you have.

Speaking of perspective, why were people in rares never complaining about the vertical progression of exotics? It’s the same percentage of stat increase, same relative amount of time to acquire (remember that dungeons didn’t always give 180 tokens a day,) as ascended is now.

There were complaints about how long it took to get exotics at first, but nothing about the inherent statistical advantage exotics gave over rare-equipped or downscaled players.

Where was the outcry from WvW players? Where was the outcry from so-called casuals?

You clearly see the issue at hand thanks!

Exotics are an armor piece that people even if you only have an hour a day to play can eventually seeing getting. It will take a bit but they can see that mountain getting closer and closer.

Ascended feels like an impossibility. Instead of only having to reach 1 mountain you are ask to go to 25 different ones with Not help at all, hence you have to climb up 1, down it and rinse and repeat.

Just from doing my dailies and monthly I am aboot to get my ascended amulet w/o going out of my way. So what is your point?

Not everyone has time for dailies and monthly. So if they only have 1 hour (and I know you’ll counter and say thats so much time for a daily! but those of us who don’t know the quickest way (most) to do it it isn’t) 1 hour is not enough.

Go through it logically before you post.

Logic? In an MMO forum? Really now, you’re asking far too much.

The dailies even before revision could be done in less than an hour if you were crunched for time by going to a starting zone. After the revision . . . they can be done in less than an hour in a starting zone. There’s people who gladly offer advice on these forums, or on Reddit, or in game if you ask nicely. (Granted, there’s people who don’t answer nicely or who laugh, but hey, we’ve got the rude folk like every other game ever.) “I don’t know how to get it done fast” is less of a reason and more of an excuse.

Monthlies are different, and require actual effort; I still haven’t hit my Monthly Dungeon quota. Mostly because I’m not actively working on it yet, but I still have a week and a half to go. I can probably find something over the next two weekends.

Ascended used to be “out there” because you had to do Fractals and get lucky with the RNG. Now it’s not, because you can just do some time-budgeting or have patience to earn the Rings and/or Amulet. This is a step forward towards people having Ascended more easily, not a step away.

Okay now not only are you defying logic but you’ve comitted a logical fallacy.

Want to know which?
Its when you said “look at her!, you can’t blame me! She’s worse!” fallacy.

Honestly saying ALL mmo forums are illogical is also hasty generalization too.

You’ve committed 2 different types of logical fallacies (probably more if I carefully read it).

Honestly I don’t need to defend my view if you won’t follow basic logic in yours and since it is not logical this only proves my view that grind is hurting the players that this game advertised for more.

Revolution.6301:

Okay now not only are you defying logic but you’ve comitted a logical fallacy.

Want to know which?
Its when you said “look at her!, you can’t blame me! She’s worse!” fallacy.

Honestly saying ALL mmo forums are illogical is also hasty generalization too.

You’ve committed 2 different types of logical fallacies (probably more if I carefully read it).

Honestly I don’t need to defend my view if you won’t follow basic logic in yours and since it is not logical this only proves my view that grind is hurting the players that this game advertised for more.

The most simple way to get around the whole issue was to have the ascended set be on par only with exotics, and have the set just be there for resistance so it only mattered to those that wanted to do the dungeons, having alternative ways to get the gear was fine to a point, I’m all for options. However instead you have calendar gated via daily’s or rng grind via the dungeons, and honestly I find nothing about either of these necessary or revolutionary in design directions. Ascended isn’t a terrible idea, it’s just a badly implemented one, sadly I don’t think that fact occurs to them or they’re listening anymore.

Revolution.6301:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Logic? In an MMO forum? Really now, you’re asking far too much.

The dailies even before revision could be done in less than an hour if you were crunched for time by going to a starting zone. After the revision . . . they can be done in less than an hour in a starting zone. There’s people who gladly offer advice on these forums, or on Reddit, or in game if you ask nicely. (Granted, there’s people who don’t answer nicely or who laugh, but hey, we’ve got the rude folk like every other game ever.) “I don’t know how to get it done fast” is less of a reason and more of an excuse.

Monthlies are different, and require actual effort; I still haven’t hit my Monthly Dungeon quota. Mostly because I’m not actively working on it yet, but I still have a week and a half to go. I can probably find something over the next two weekends.

Ascended used to be “out there” because you had to do Fractals and get lucky with the RNG. Now it’s not, because you can just do some time-budgeting or have patience to earn the Rings and/or Amulet. This is a step forward towards people having Ascended more easily, not a step away.

Okay now not only are you defying logic but you’ve comitted a logical fallacy.

Want to know which?
Its when you said “look at her!, you can’t blame me! She’s worse!” fallacy.

Honestly saying ALL mmo forums are illogical is also hasty generalization too.

You’ve committed 2 different types of logical fallacies (probably more if I carefully read it).

Honestly I don’t need to defend my view if you won’t follow basic logic in yours and since it is not logical this only proves my view that grind is hurting the players that this game advertised for more.

You do realize that grind is inevitable right? You do also realize that the level of grind is rather subjective to an individual. That being said, players themselves choose to grind. There is nothing gated by grind unless your standard of what you consider grind is so high that even playing the game is considered “grinding”. This brings me back to the “subjective” point I made at the beginning.

Also, the game was never advertised to be low-grind. It simply advertised against the kind of grind that’s so prevalent in other MMORPGs, such as MapleStory. Do you really think ascended is worth so little that you’re supposed to get it on the same level as exotics? Because it really isn’t that hard. That sounds like entitlement to me rather than justice.

Heijincks.9267:

Also, the game was never advertised to be low-grind. It simply advertised against the kind of grind that’s so prevalent in other MMORPGs, such as MapleStory. Do you really think ascended is worth so little that you’re supposed to get it on the same level as exotics? Because it really isn’t that hard. That sounds like entitlement to me rather than justice.

No, it was advertised as having no grind.

Mike O’Brien’s now infamous quote:
“Here’s what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games – we leave the grind to other MMOs.”

Sounds great doesn’t it, if only that was the reality today.

Revolution.6301:

Okay now not only are you defying logic but you’ve comitted a logical fallacy.

Want to know which?
Its when you said “look at her!, you can’t blame me! She’s worse!” fallacy.

Honestly saying ALL mmo forums are illogical is also hasty generalization too.

You’ve committed 2 different types of logical fallacies (probably more if I carefully read it).

Honestly I don’t need to defend my view if you won’t follow basic logic in yours and since it is not logical this only proves my view that grind is hurting the players that this game advertised for more.

. . . I’m sorry, what is the point of being logical? I’m not going to convince anyone no matter how much I drag myself to the whiteboard and start working it out, or how long I talk. I could construct an argument and a long statement I like but really all I’ll see in return is: “You’re just a fanboy/apologist who loves grind” which doesn’t inspire me to try making much sense. And the fact you admitted you just skimmed the post sums up exactly WHY I don’t want to bother trying to be more exact and careful – you left doubts that you would have paid attention even if I had.

Also, you focused on the first sentence which was sarcasm, and ignored the rest. I didn’t really use “look at X, X is worse than Y so you can’t claim Y is…” except by comparison. Which is all anyone does to make their case, since “grind” is such a freaking subjective thing. One person’s “grind” is another’s “I’ll do this task and then be done”. Look at the myriad threads around here, there are people who basically go “what grind?” because they don’t feel it’s a grind.

So, let’s dip back into logic for a bit. You cannot . . . rather, should not make categorical definitions (“It’s all a grind, and this is fact”) about subjective responses. This is not arguing which is a higher number, or whether that color is a shade of blue or a shade of yellow. Making categorical definitions leaves faults in an argument people can pick at, even if you feel they’re on target, because they’re not agreeing with your subjective opinion of what is or is not a grind.

The talk about whether something is “a grind” or a “gear treadmill” is rooted in two different problems: one is a subjective definition, one is an extrapolation based on ignorance of the future. (It may be well-reasoned due to personal experience or it may have history suggesting it would follow, but predictions are always a little . . . left to chance.) You can’t reliably predict there’s going to be a gear treadmill following Ascended, because you don’t know what’s going to happen. Even if it had been planned, they can scrap the plan and do something else. That’s the problem with arguing from ignorance, with regards to the future -you just can’t tell what’s going to happen until it actually happens.

As for “grind” . . . unless you define “grind” specifically, you’re not going to be able to get anyone to discuss it properly. Furthermore, there’s no guarantee your idea of a “grind” meets what someone else’s is. Currently the generally-agreed definition of “grind” is “repetitive work I don’t want to do but feel obligated to for some reason”. Highly subjective, and if you try to pin it down (“doing X more than once per day”) you run into elusiveness and weaseling out of it (“Okay, I’ll not do X more than once per day, I’ll do X then Y instead. No more grind.”) . . . primarily because people think the definition is unreasonable.

I also refute your assertion that grind is harmful, without qualification., and on a vague definition of grind. Grind isn’t harmful. Excessive grinding is.

LOCO.1785:

Heijincks.9267:

Also, the game was never advertised to be low-grind. It simply advertised against the kind of grind that’s so prevalent in other MMORPGs, such as MapleStory. Do you really think ascended is worth so little that you’re supposed to get it on the same level as exotics? Because it really isn’t that hard. That sounds like entitlement to me rather than justice.

No, it was advertised as having no grind.

Mike O’Brien’s now infamous quote:
“Here’s what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games – we leave the grind to other MMOs.”

Sounds great doesn’t it, if only that was the reality today.

“No grind” is pretty much impossible in any MMORPG. As long as rare items exist, then there will be grind one way or another. Also, additionally bolded for context. Ascended isn’t that “legendary” gear that puts one above everyone else.

Heijincks.9267:

“No grind” is pretty much impossible in any MMORPG. As long as rare items exist, then there will be grind one way or another. Also, additionally bolded for context. Ascended isn’t that “legendary” gear that puts one above everyone else.

Actually, I believe it’s impossible because what one person calls a grind, someone else thinks is reasonable. So . . . no, you’re not going to see grind go away short of FPS games, and even they’re getting grind these days according to some.

Vayne.8563:

The fact is that the ONLY place in the world you need that gear for is the place you need to farm to get it. This is completely different from gating in other games.

No, that is the same argument that is used by raiders in every other game to justify why they should be the only ones to get better gear than those who don’t raid.

Ellisande.5218:

Vayne.8563:

The fact is that the ONLY place in the world you need that gear for is the place you need to farm to get it. This is completely different from gating in other games.

No, that is the same argument that is used by raiders in every other game to justify why they should be the only ones to get better gear than those who don’t raid.

It’s not the same argument, because you can’t actually enter raids, where as you can enter the fractals.

In other words, you can’t see the highest level raids in most games. That content is completely cut off from you.

The fractals aren’t cut off from you. People have done fractals without ascended gear in greens up to level 18. You can’t in any way say that content is gated.

What people complain about in those other games, non-competitive people like me, is that we can’t see content at all. Whatever lore, story, or interesting items are in those places are completely cut off from us because we’re more casual.

But that’s not the case with the fractals. Without any ascended gear you can go in and see every single fractal. Now if you like that sort of thing and want to repeat the same things over and over again, but harder (and I don’t), you can keep going.

But that’s different from raids in most games where you can’t see the content at all.

Rift tried to put in single player raids so people could see it, but they missed the mark. They made the content so unbelievably easy if you had any gear at all that it felt pointless. They might as well have handed me a video to watch.

The fractals doesn’t suffer than problem. I can do the fractals. More, I can KEEP doing them, and stay at the same level if that’s what I like.

That content isn’t gated.

Revolution.6301:

silvermember.8941:

Revolution.6301:

Mackdose.6504:

Algreg.3629:

ProtoGunner.4953:

Not really, as soon as I hit lvl80 on a new alt, I can use all the jugs and drops of karma to spend it on exotics or just buy it with the tokens I got from dungeons. Since I have my legendary, I don’t play THAT much. Maybe 2 hours a day. Maybe 6-7 dungeon runs in a week. It is EASILY I really mean EASILY achievable to get exotic gear. I never, ever, EVER understand people complaining about gear treadmill. The few ascended items are easy to get. If you have problems, shut up and go play your casual mobile game.

Edit: You need a bit effort to achieve something, if not, games like MMOs (and honestl,y most PC and console games I played) are nothihng for you. I really can’t stand the whining anymore, it is just ridiculous.

one might say applying the attribute “only” to devoting almost 2 full work days a week to GW2 while implying that it must have been a lot more before aquiring casually mentioned 2 legendaries doesn´t make you really the go-to-guy regarding the judgement of in game timeframes. Do not misunderstand me, your playing habits are your thing and totally fine by me, I devote a lot of time to games myself, but that is hardly a reasonable perspective you have.

Speaking of perspective, why were people in rares never complaining about the vertical progression of exotics? It’s the same percentage of stat increase, same relative amount of time to acquire (remember that dungeons didn’t always give 180 tokens a day,) as ascended is now.

There were complaints about how long it took to get exotics at first, but nothing about the inherent statistical advantage exotics gave over rare-equipped or downscaled players.

Where was the outcry from WvW players? Where was the outcry from so-called casuals?

You clearly see the issue at hand thanks!

Exotics are an armor piece that people even if you only have an hour a day to play can eventually seeing getting. It will take a bit but they can see that mountain getting closer and closer.

Ascended feels like an impossibility. Instead of only having to reach 1 mountain you are ask to go to 25 different ones with Not help at all, hence you have to climb up 1, down it and rinse and repeat.

Just from doing my dailies and monthly I am aboot to get my ascended amulet w/o going out of my way. So what is your point?

Not everyone has time for dailies and monthly. So if they only have 1 hour (and I know you’ll counter and say thats so much time for a daily! but those of us who don’t know the quickest way (most) to do it it isn’t) 1 hour is not enough.

Go through it logically before you post.

You keep making out that your time is the limiting factor.. i say that’s your opinion and your welcome it it but if you cant complete a daily in an hour or the odd fractal/dungeon runs then why is that the fault of ANET.. you spend more time writing posts about the same sad tale on these forums than the 1hr you claim to only have in game… please think logically about your game time before repeat posting!

Mackdose.6504:

Bloodstealer.5978:

silvermember.8941:

Revolution.6301:

Mackdose.6504:

Algreg.3629:

ProtoGunner.4953:

- – SNIP – -

Speaking of perspective, why were people in rares never complaining about the vertical progression of exotics? It’s the same percentage of stat increase, same relative amount of time to acquire (remember that dungeons didn’t always give 180 tokens a day,) as ascended is now.

There were complaints about how long it took to get exotics at first, but nothing about the inherent statistical advantage exotics gave over rare-equipped or downscaled players.

Where was the outcry from WvW players? Where was the outcry from so-called casuals?

You clearly see the issue at hand thanks!

Exotics are an armor piece that people even if you only have an hour a day to play can eventually seeing getting. It will take a bit but they can see that mountain getting closer and closer.

Ascended feels like an impossibility. Instead of only having to reach 1 mountain you are ask to go to 25 different ones with Not help at all, hence you have to climb up 1, down it and rinse and repeat.

Just from doing my dailies and monthly I am aboot to get my ascended amulet w/o going out of my way. So what is your point?

He has no point.. that’s the point

He/she feels victimised because his/her limited play time feels like it is detrimental to getting the best gear… so is whinning that ANET are evil and Ascended gear is game breaking when really it will likely take the same amount of ingame time to get as anyone else but longer in terms of RL… That is not a fault of ANET but still he/she wants ANET to answer and basically allow the gear to drop without at least the same amount of effort

Like other posters have said.. All MMO’s require some kind of progression within its content… at some point actual content needs to increase in difficulty therefoee levels will increase.. which in turn requires players to be better equiped to attempt to overcome it otherwise we will all be sat around maps repeating the same content, in the same gear, until we can run things blinfold… and by then most of the playerbase, Hardcore and Casual, would of likely left due to boredom.

The difficulty increase doesn’t require a stat inflation though. They could just create more varied tasks. Fractals showed us that there is a lot of ways to implement 5 man content without just inflating the stats of the mobs.

As the game matures, we’ll see better and better events, dungeon encounters, jumping puzzles and more. WoW took a long time to move out of “tank and spank” raid fights, I’m willing to give Anet some time to get used to the strength and weaknesses of the open world content generation.

I agree with you, there is more than one way to make this game immersive but which ever way they do it the player base will, in the end want to feel that they are progressing as well, otherwise all the content will quickly keep being consumed and the boredom factor will come into play.
Gear stats is one way and a proven way to keep players hooked in, but I agree this can, if implemented wrong, go to far to quickly and players beging to chase their own tails (no pun intended to Charr players…. )

But ANET has not gone about gearing the same old traditional way, they have created optional content with a differnt set of challenges for those who wish to take an alternative route in game aside from story and Openworld.
As has been beaten to death since Ascended Gear landed, the overall stat increases and therfore the benefits they provide are all but negligible outside of FotM compared to our standard Exotic/Legendary sets. It just isnt worth all the whining about imo and certainly not gamebreaking.

But then this has been entwined with one persons compelling belief that ANET has victimised him and other who can only afford the odd hour a day to play… there will always be someone not happy with something, as I have said previous… Devil if they do, Devil if they don’t.

Mackdose.6504:

EasymodeX.4062:

kenshinakh.3672:

Clearly you’re off somewhere, and if you’re going to pick out the 33% from the critical damage… I’m going to laugh and say “Well, now if I had 1% critical damage, and it increased to 3%, is that a 300% increase? Of course! But it’s not going to matter for things on such a low scale in the first place!”

And then when the rest of the ascended gear is released and someone crits you for 16k instead of 14k …

It’s too late.

Sidenote:

Whoops, I added the power on the ruby orichalcum incorrectly. Still, doesn’t make much of a difference. If you want to get really picky (which you apparently do):

http://www.gw2db.com/items/71376-crystalline-band-infused
http://www.gw2db.com/items/71391-bagh-nakh-infused
http://www.gw2db.com/items/71379-red-ring-of-death-infused

That’s still +13% on the power, 9.5% on the secondary, and 33% on the crit damage.

150% is base crit damage. So while it may be 33% number increase from one ring to the next one up, when you include base stats (which everyone likes to forget) the increase is much lower.

33% higher stat != 33% more effectiveness.

Eh… it’s 8% crit vs. 6% crit… or 2% increase. Not 33% increase. Just needed to point that out.

Revolution.6301:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Revolution.6301:

Okay now not only are you defying logic but you’ve comitted a logical fallacy.

Want to know which?
Its when you said “look at her!, you can’t blame me! She’s worse!” fallacy.

Honestly saying ALL mmo forums are illogical is also hasty generalization too.

You’ve committed 2 different types of logical fallacies (probably more if I carefully read it).

Honestly I don’t need to defend my view if you won’t follow basic logic in yours and since it is not logical this only proves my view that grind is hurting the players that this game advertised for more.

. . . I’m sorry, what is the point of being logical? I’m not going to convince anyone no matter how much I drag myself to the whiteboard and start working it out, or how long I talk. I could construct an argument and a long statement I like but really all I’ll see in return is: “You’re just a fanboy/apologist who loves grind” which doesn’t inspire me to try making much sense. And the fact you admitted you just skimmed the post sums up exactly WHY I don’t want to bother trying to be more exact and careful – you left doubts that you would have paid attention even if I had.

Also, you focused on the first sentence which was sarcasm, and ignored the rest. I didn’t really use “look at X, X is worse than Y so you can’t claim Y is…” except by comparison. Which is all anyone does to make their case, since “grind” is such a freaking subjective thing. One person’s “grind” is another’s “I’ll do this task and then be done”. Look at the myriad threads around here, there are people who basically go “what grind?” because they don’t feel it’s a grind.

So, let’s dip back into logic for a bit. You cannot . . . rather, should not make categorical definitions (“It’s all a grind, and this is fact”) about subjective responses. This is not arguing which is a higher number, or whether that color is a shade of blue or a shade of yellow. Making categorical definitions leaves faults in an argument people can pick at, even if you feel they’re on target, because they’re not agreeing with your subjective opinion of what is or is not a grind.

The talk about whether something is “a grind” or a “gear treadmill” is rooted in two different problems: one is a subjective definition, one is an extrapolation based on ignorance of the future. (It may be well-reasoned due to personal experience or it may have history suggesting it would follow, but predictions are always a little . . . left to chance.) You can’t reliably predict there’s going to be a gear treadmill following Ascended, because you don’t know what’s going to happen. Even if it had been planned, they can scrap the plan and do something else. That’s the problem with arguing from ignorance, with regards to the future -you just can’t tell what’s going to happen until it actually happens.

As for “grind” . . . unless you define “grind” specifically, you’re not going to be able to get anyone to discuss it properly. Furthermore, there’s no guarantee your idea of a “grind” meets what someone else’s is. Currently the generally-agreed definition of “grind” is “repetitive work I don’t want to do but feel obligated to for some reason”. Highly subjective, and if you try to pin it down (“doing X more than once per day”) you run into elusiveness and weaseling out of it (“Okay, I’ll not do X more than once per day, I’ll do X then Y instead. No more grind.”) . . . primarily because people think the definition is unreasonable.

I also refute your assertion that grind is harmful, without qualification., and on a vague definition of grind. Grind isn’t harmful. Excessive grinding is.

What is the point of logic? Okay your entire argument again is out.
Another thing committing an ad hodemin -attacking the person isn’t a good method ether.
Your entire post means nothing if you continue to defy logical arguments. All arguments have to be logically correct if you expect anyone to take you seriously.

Look next time you try to pick apart my argument due so by picking about the logic. Don’t try a red herring ether -putting an irrelevent fact to draw attention from the main issue ether. It isn’t a good tactic ether.

I don’t mind if you disagree but try doing it logically. Thank you =)

What??

Do you actually read the comments that come back to you or do you just think..Ahh well someone disagrees with your point of view so they must be wrong, illogical and must be fanboi’s….

I firmly believe it is you that defies logic and reason in your postings and are so all consumed with your belief that ANET are victimising you that you fail to see just how logical and reasoned the responses to you actually are.

Your attitude is one of “I am the special one, What I say is and must be the only way, I did not agree to that so it cant be done!”

VOLKON.1290:

Mackdose.6504:

EasymodeX.4062:

kenshinakh.3672:

Clearly you’re off somewhere, and if you’re going to pick out the 33% from the critical damage… I’m going to laugh and say “Well, now if I had 1% critical damage, and it increased to 3%, is that a 300% increase? Of course! But it’s not going to matter for things on such a low scale in the first place!”

And then when the rest of the ascended gear is released and someone crits you for 16k instead of 14k …

It’s too late.

Sidenote:

Whoops, I added the power on the ruby orichalcum incorrectly. Still, doesn’t make much of a difference. If you want to get really picky (which you apparently do):

http://www.gw2db.com/items/71376-crystalline-band-infused
http://www.gw2db.com/items/71391-bagh-nakh-infused
http://www.gw2db.com/items/71379-red-ring-of-death-infused

That’s still +13% on the power, 9.5% on the secondary, and 33% on the crit damage.

150% is base crit damage. So while it may be 33% number increase from one ring to the next one up, when you include base stats (which everyone likes to forget) the increase is much lower.

33% higher stat != 33% more effectiveness.

Eh… it’s 8% crit vs. 6% crit… or 2% increase. Not 33% increase. Just needed to point that out.

2 is 1/3; .33333n; 33% of 6.

6 + 2 =8

Ergo the increase of one ring to another for that particular comparison, is 33%.

kenshinakh.3672:

Let’s say you have 95% crit damage bonus with 50% base crit damage, and your attack normall hits for 6k, crits up to 14700, which should be close enough.
Now add in 2% more. 97%. Crits up to 14820. If we want to get anywhere close to 16k…

How about you add in the 2% crit damage and >10% power for every ascended item slot, then come back? Hint: the answer is ~12-16% total damage increase, and I did that in my head in about 2 minutes.

Try way harder, troll.

Vayne.8563:

This is just four pieces and they’re the ONLY pieces available at this time. So in three months you can get ALL the gear you need pretty easily, without that much effort.

I get it. I have to waste 3 months of my life in this game before I can actually play the game.

That makes perfect sense.

Why the hell can’t developers just release a game that a player can kittening play?

Thanks for clearly describing how much time I need to invest and “not” play this game before I can actually play this game. It certainly makes the decision of whether I should stick with GW2 at all much simpler.

Edit:

And forget about getting a set of gear with different stats. That’s already a hugeass hurdle and pain just on the exotic level. With ascended bullkitten into the equation, I’d have to make GW2 my kittening career.

Mackdose.6504:

VOLKON.1290:

Mackdose.6504:

EasymodeX.4062:

kenshinakh.3672:

Clearly you’re off somewhere, and if you’re going to pick out the 33% from the critical damage… I’m going to laugh and say “Well, now if I had 1% critical damage, and it increased to 3%, is that a 300% increase? Of course! But it’s not going to matter for things on such a low scale in the first place!”

And then when the rest of the ascended gear is released and someone crits you for 16k instead of 14k …

It’s too late.

Sidenote:

Whoops, I added the power on the ruby orichalcum incorrectly. Still, doesn’t make much of a difference. If you want to get really picky (which you apparently do):

http://www.gw2db.com/items/71376-crystalline-band-infused
http://www.gw2db.com/items/71391-bagh-nakh-infused
http://www.gw2db.com/items/71379-red-ring-of-death-infused

That’s still +13% on the power, 9.5% on the secondary, and 33% on the crit damage.

150% is base crit damage. So while it may be 33% number increase from one ring to the next one up, when you include base stats (which everyone likes to forget) the increase is much lower.

33% higher stat != 33% more effectiveness.

Eh… it’s 8% crit vs. 6% crit… or 2% increase. Not 33% increase. Just needed to point that out.

2 is 1/3; .33333n; 33% of 6.

6 + 2 =8

Ergo the increase of one ring to another for that particular comparison, is 33%.

No, it isn’t. The first two stats are a direct amount increase added to a base value. If one adds 50 condition damage and another 60, you can calculate how much of a percent increase of the base there is for each and a difference. However… the crit damage is already in percentage. So if one gives 6% additional crit and the other 8% additional crit then the second gives you a total of 2% more crit, not 33%.

They’re already percentages, you don’t convert to percentages then subtract.

VOLKON.1290:

So if one gives 6% additional crit and the other 8% additional crit then the second gives you a total of 2% more crit, not 33%.

I’m not saying it gives you 33% more crit. No one is saying it gives you 33% more crit.

In fact, that was the entire point I was trying to make. Thank you for pointing out my own logic.

There is however, a 33% difference between the amount of crit damage the exotic ring provides (6%) and the amount that the Ascended ring provides (8%).

Next time read the thread.

Vayne:

This is just four pieces and they’re the ONLY pieces available at this time. So in three months you can get ALL the gear you need pretty easily, without that much effort.

Easymodex

I get it. I have to waste 3 months of my life in this game before I can actually play the game.

Ummm no. Actually you’re playing the game without those rings and backpieces. Everyone who’s playing the game is STILL playing the game. You’re not playing a different game because you don’t have them.

Let’s say over the course of a month in WvW, 3 guys kill you who wouldn’t have killed you before. So? And you can’t even prove that’s the case. It could be that no one will have killed you that wouldn’t have killed you anyway.

What you’re essentially saying is you weren’t playing the game before you got exotic armor. That’s just silly.

You’re playing the game from the moment you create a character and start doing the tutorial. You don’t wait to play the game until you gear up (unlike some other games where that’s the case). You’re playing the whole time.

Some people just suffer the delusion that if they don’t have BIS gear they can’t function at all.

Winfernal.9208:

Vayne.8563:

The content isn’t gated. People’s minds are gated.

Aye!

Oh SNAP! I agree.

What you’re essentially saying is you weren’t playing the game before you got exotic armor. That’s just silly.

I wasn’t. I was grinding out significant spans on time on Snow Trolls, kitten dragon non-events, and Orr DEs until I could craft / purchase my exotics.

And that was for one kittening stat configuration.

Tons of wasted time.

You’re playing the game from the moment you create a character and start doing the tutorial. You don’t wait to play the game until you gear up (unlike some other games where that’s the case). You’re playing the whole time.

No, I’m not. I’m completing kitten roadblocks and chores the devs have stuck in my face until I can play on a level playing field. The only real fun between level 1-80 were the story quests up through ~50. Every other second was a waste of time.

ANet advertised GW2 with the philosophy of “less kitten wasted time grinding than the other MMORPG”. They’re now stepping backwards away from that and throwing more kitten in my face.

EasymodeX.4062:

What you’re essentially saying is you weren’t playing the game before you got exotic armor. That’s just silly.

I wasn’t. I was grinding out significant spans on time on Snow Trolls, kitten dragon non-events, and Orr DEs until I could craft / purchase my exotics.

And that was for one kittening stat configuration.

Tons of wasted time.

You’re playing the game from the moment you create a character and start doing the tutorial. You don’t wait to play the game until you gear up (unlike some other games where that’s the case). You’re playing the whole time.

No, I’m not. I’m completing kitten roadblocks and chores the devs have stuck in my face until I can play on a level playing field. The only real fun between level 1-80 were the story quests up through ~50. Every other second was a waste of time.

ANet advertised GW2 with the philosophy of “less kitten wasted time grinding than the other MMORPG”. They’re now stepping backwards away from that and throwing more kitten in my face.

If you truly believe you’re not playing the game until you have the best gear, you’re playing a different game. Thousands of people have played the game with masterworks and rares. Not everyone in WvW is even level 80. Saying you need this to play the game is your own hang up. You can’t blame Anet for it. This is in your head.

It’s exactly what I mean when I say content isn’t gated, people’s minds are gated.

EasymodeX.4062:

What you’re essentially saying is you weren’t playing the game before you got exotic armor. That’s just silly.

I wasn’t. I was grinding out significant spans on time on Snow Trolls, kitten dragon non-events, and Orr DEs until I could craft / purchase my exotics.

And that was for one kittening stat configuration.

Tons of wasted time.

. . . snow trolls? Oh, right, the grottos southwest of Earthshake Waypoint.

I may be the only person who did the following before I hit 100% map completion:

- Hit level 80.
- Could make decent rare medium armor. (I haven’t, because I’m still shy on Ectoplasm.)
- Had enough cash/karma to actually buy exotic if I chose. (I didn’t, because I want to scout skins for one I like the most.)

I mean, I know that wherever I try to place myself on a curve I’m always an anomaly. either too low (skill level playing League) or too high (amount of losses in Magic the Gathering).

Vayne.8563:

Thousands of people have played the game with masterworks and rares. Not everyone in WvW is even level 80.

Yes, I know. Those are the people who I crit for 20k with a basic 1.5-second combo.

They barely get a chance to blink before they are erased from the map. That’s not even fair.

They shouldn’t even be in WvW, although they do make me laugh. Unless they’re on my server. Then they make me cry.

I’m sure those players are having lots of fun when they die instantaneously to a Thief Mug (just Mug). Or at most a CND+Mug (not even a backstab).

EasymodeX.4062:

Vayne.8563:

Thousands of people have played the game with masterworks and rares. Not everyone in WvW is even level 80.

Yes, I know. Those are the people who I crit for 20k with a basic 1.5-second combo.

They barely get a chance to blink before they are erased from the map. That’s not even fair.

They shouldn’t even be in WvW, although they do make me laugh. Unless they’re on my server. Then they make me cry.

Right and Anet said all along, it was never intended for WvW to be balanced. It was a hodgepodge. A bunch of people doing their thing, without having the equality they have in SPvP. They’re not trying to balance it, because they know it can’t be balanced.

In general if 8-12% of people have ascended gear (and yes I’m making these numbers up, just as an example), that means that there’s 4% potential discrepancy between your server and theirs. It’s not balanced for 1v1 and was never intended to be balanced for 1v1. Overall, the differences between servers should balance out, more or less.

Let’s say that 12% of the people on one server have it and only 8% on another. That doesn’t mean at any given time, the server with less won’t have more people on that have ascended gear.

And when you meet another player 1v1, what will make the difference between living and dying is your profession and build vs. his profession a build. That’s a far more likely outcome than the result being changed by a couple of ascended items.

At any rate, you are clearly playing a different game than I am, and a different game than Anet designed, since WvW was never designed to place everyone on even footing.

EasymodeX.4062:

Vayne.8563:

Thousands of people have played the game with masterworks and rares. Not everyone in WvW is even level 80.

Yes, I know. Those are the people who I crit for 20k with a basic 1.5-second combo.

They barely get a chance to blink before they are erased from the map. That’s not even fair.

They shouldn’t even be in WvW, although they do make me laugh. Unless they’re on my server. Then they make me cry.

I’m sure those players are having lots of fun when they die instantaneously to a Thief Mug (just Mug). Or at most a CND+Mug (not even a backstab).

No, no they don’t have a lot of fun dying to a thief. Of course, they have a lot of fun when they manage to actually catch the thief doing that and do something fun to them. Like Point Blank Shot them off a cliff. That’s always hilarious when it gets pulled off.

Note, don’t try that on a Necro.

EasymodeX.4062:

Vayne.8563:

Right and Anet said all along, it was never intended for WvW to be balanced.

WvW was never supposed to be a fair fight with 5v5s or 10v10s or equal numbers or exact equal conditions.

However, it is supposed to be generally balanced without absurd barriers to entry.

Let’s say that 12% of the people on one server have it and only 8% on another. That doesn’t mean at any given time, the server with less won’t have more people on that have ascended gear.

You’re still making excuses.

WvW should simply use the sPvP ruleset. It is, after all, a PvP game mode.

Failing that, my gear in WvW should be up-leveled to ascended automatically.

Failing that, WvW should not be affected by PvE gear stat creep at all (e.g. make ascended gear have the agony gating stat without any change to normal stats).

Failing that, kitten you.

Those who lose arguments often resort to personal insult. But since I’m notoriously hard to offend that hardly matters.

In YOUR opinion WvW should follow SPvP rules, but I see WvW as a cross between PVe and PvP. After all, you need it for your world completion. It still has vistas and gathering. It has jumping puzzles. This sets it apart from traditional PvP. It was DESIGNED not to be balanced. If you think it should, well that’s okay. You’re entitled to your opinion.

But I seriously doubt your opinion will change the way the game was designed.

Vayne.8563:

In YOUR opinion WvW should follow SPvP rules, but I see WvW as a cross between PVe and PvP. After all, you need it for your world completion. It still has vistas and gathering. It has jumping puzzles.

All of which have been cited as the dumbest aspects of WvW. What kind of PvE map completionist really wants to wait weeks, or even months to get a random POI? Absurd. Forces tranfers (which now cost gems — ohwait, of course that makes sense for ANet), and breaks up the community. Great game design.

You’re entitled to your opinion.

I find it ironic that you demand that I play the entire game your way, when all I want is for the both of us to play our separate game modes our separate ways.

I have cited numerous solutions that would work well for both game modes.

Yet you still want it your way and only your way.

Greedy much? Then again, I suppose ANet’s on the same gear treadmill $$$ page as you, ohwell. Too bad ANet couldn’t stick to their guns on maintaining accessible gameplay. I guess they have to make revenue from the BLTC somehow. I’d rather pay a $15/mo sub than deal with that kitten.

Vayne.8563:

EasymodeX.4062:

Vayne.8563:

Right and Anet said all along, it was never intended for WvW to be balanced.

WvW was never supposed to be a fair fight with 5v5s or 10v10s or equal numbers or exact equal conditions.

However, it is supposed to be generally balanced without absurd barriers to entry.

Let’s say that 12% of the people on one server have it and only 8% on another. That doesn’t mean at any given time, the server with less won’t have more people on that have ascended gear.

You’re still making excuses.

WvW should simply use the sPvP ruleset. It is, after all, a PvP game mode.

Failing that, my gear in WvW should be up-leveled to ascended automatically.

Failing that, WvW should not be affected by PvE gear stat creep at all (e.g. make ascended gear have the agony gating stat without any change to normal stats).

Failing that, kitten you.

Those who lose arguments often resort to personal insult. But since I’m notoriously hard to offend that hardly matters.

In YOUR opinion WvW should follow SPvP rules, but I see WvW as a cross between PVe and PvP. After all, you need it for your world completion. It still has vistas and gathering. It has jumping puzzles. This sets it apart from traditional PvP. It was DESIGNED not to be balanced. If you think it should, well that’s okay. You’re entitled to your opinion.

But I seriously doubt your opinion will change the way the game was designed.

Your view of WvW is precisely how ANet envisioned it as well. With the outliers (people who believe you shouldn’t even have to go through the leveling process to get to 80 for WvW) having still attempted to play it as though it was a hardcore, balanced PvP offering.

It’s clear to me EasyModeX would simply prefer another game :-/

However, it is supposed to be generally balanced without absurd barriers to entry.

:-[
There are no, literally zero, barriers to entry. You can play WvW at level one with nothing but your autoattack unlocked.

EasymodeX.4062:

Too bad ANet couldn’t stick to their guns on maintaining accessible gameplay. I guess they have to make revenue from the BLTC somehow. I’d rather pay a $15/mo sub than deal with that kitten.

Wow. Troll confirmed. Proceeding not to feed.

Hawkian.6580:

:-[
There are no, literally zero, barriers to entry. You can play WvW at level one with nothing but your autoattack unlocked.

You don’t seem to have an accurate understanding of the concept of barrier to entry.

If you want to be a useless sack of kitten in WvW, by all means hop in at level 2.

However, you won’t be very effective.

EasymodeX.4062:

Vayne.8563:

In YOUR opinion WvW should follow SPvP rules, but I see WvW as a cross between PVe and PvP. After all, you need it for your world completion. It still has vistas and gathering. It has jumping puzzles.

All of which have been cited as the dumbest aspects of WvW.

You’re entitled to your opinion.

I find it ironic that you demand that I play the entire game your way, when all I want is for the both of us to play our separate game modes our separate ways.

I have cited numerous solutions that would work well for both game modes.

Yet you still want it your way and only your way.

Greedy much? Then again, I suppose ANet on the same gear treadmill $$$ page as you, ohwell. Too bad ANet couldn’t stick to their guns on maintaining accessible gameplay. I guess they have to make revenue from the BLTC somehow. I’d rather pay a $15/mo sub than deal with that kitten.

You must have mistaken me for someone else. I don’t want the game my way. I’m simply not objecting to the game Anet gave me. That’s hardly the same thing.

If Anet turned around today and said WvW will now have SPvP rules that wouldn’t affect me at all. In fact, you’re the only one here who wants the game your way. I’m quite happy with the game Anet provided, because I don’t have quite the attachments you do.

For example, I don’t grind fractals, but I’m not upset that fractals or fractal gear is in the game. How is this wanting things my way.

I WvW sometimes, and I have no ascended gear. I’d WvW whether the rules were SPvP or Pve. I’m simply not fussed by it. You are. So how is this wanting the game my way?

We’re two people with different opinions, having a discussion. I’m saying I’m quite content with the way things are, but if they changed it likely wouldn’t bother me. That’s because this is a game. I play it to have fun. I don’t know what kind of changes that Anet could make that would affect my fun.

Certainly ascended gear hasn’t affected how I play the game. WvW changes wouldn’t affect me much either.

All I’m saying is that Anet designed the game a certain way and you want it another way. And you’re not likely to get it, because that’s not the way it was designed.

But it wouldn’t bother me if you did get your way. It’s just not likely to happen.

Vayne.8563:

You must have mistaken me for someone else. I don’t want the game my way. I’m simply not objecting to the game Anet gave me. That’s hardly the same thing.

You’re doing more than “not objecting” to the current model. You are arguing and making excuses why it should be maintained.

EasymodeX.4062:

Vayne.8563:

You must have mistaken me for someone else. I don’t want the game my way. I’m simply not objecting to the game Anet gave me. That’s hardly the same thing.

You’re doing more than “not objecting” to the current model. You are arguing and making excuses why it should be maintained.

I’m saying I understood why Anet did it. That’s what I’m saying. I’m saying that it’s fine the way it is for me. What am I asking Anet to change? How is it selfish to like something that exists as it is?

One of us wants it their way, and that’s you. And if it was your way, I’d be fine with it. I’m arguing that the way it is isn’t as bad as you say it is. I’m not making excuses for anything.

You’re trying to say that until you’re max geared you can’t WvW, when lots of people WvW without being max geared. I’m saying it was never supposed to be a level playing field, because Anet said that.

Sure there’s a percentage of people that don’t want ascended gear in WvW. And if it was excluded that wouldn’t bother me. But that its’ included doesn’t bother me, because Anet has said all along it was never supposed to be balanced.

Basically I’m saying you’re making a mountain out of a molehill. But I don’t really care if they change it or not.

The same with ascended gear and stat increase altogether. I see why they felt they had to do it. But it wouldn’t bother me if they hadn’t done it. And it doesn’t bother me that they have.

What’s wrong with not being bothered, or understanding why something was done?

Mackdose.6504:

VOLKON.1290:

So if one gives 6% additional crit and the other 8% additional crit then the second gives you a total of 2% more crit, not 33%.

I’m not saying it gives you 33% more crit. No one is saying it gives you 33% more crit.

In fact, that was the entire point I was trying to make. Thank you for pointing out my own logic.

There is however, a 33% difference between the amount of crit damage the exotic ring provides (6%) and the amount that the Ascended ring provides (8%).

Next time read the thread.

If that’s how you’re trying to present it then you’re being deliberately deceptive in order to make a flawed point. One gives you 2% more crit than the other. Period. Because they’re already in percentages your comparison is flawed. It’s still, no matter how you massage the data, a 2% difference between the amount of crit damage the exotic ring provides (6% boost) and the amount that the Ascended ring provides (8%).

The reason it’s deceptive is because “33%” doesn’t mean a thing. It’s not applied to anything. It has no value. If I have 50% crit and put the ring on I’m now at 53%. If I put the ascended ring on I’m at 54%. 6% increase vs. 8% increase.

Hello,

Since this thread has derailed with off-topic posting and inflammatory comments, it is now closed.