Guild Wars 2

ocirne.7915:

Except pvp is completely terrible..

it is really good , it has a lot of potential like www but there is no development on this aspects of the game . Anet rly almost 2 years after release and 4 maps on team arena 4 maps !!! and 1 game type !!!

VOLTCIEAGE.3029:

ocirne.7915:

Except pvp is completely terrible..

it is really good , it has a lot of potential like www but there is no development on this aspects of the game . Anet rly almost 2 years after release and 4 maps on team arena 4 maps !!! and 1 game type !!!

you clearly have little experience with PVP MMO’s.
4 maps and 1 game type in a 2 year span is very.. very… very… slow

using WoW as a personal example of mine. 1 year for expansion = 5 new maps = 3 new game types + new mechanics + new arenas

Oh, endgame, such a cancerous word.

Godzzila.3752:

As of right now If i was to migrate to anyother game would be Wildstar, however it might be 2 early to say… Also EQ Next should be here in a few months, however seems that is going to be p2w really hard…

I was expecting you to say a game that has been out longer than WSO. I’m not saying WSO isn’t a good game, but I agree it is way early to say.

My opinion on the matter is that MMO players in general are becoming more and more disenchanted with the genre. At this point in their gaming “careers” they’ve likely played an MMO for years, one they called home for a very long time (like WoW, GW1, L2, etc.) But of course, tastes change after years of playing the same game, with the same mechanics, same gearing structure, etc.

Players know what they used to like, but they are over the game they used to play simply from over-playing it. So now they are looking for a new game to play that is different enough to not feel like they are basically playing the same game, but similar enough to trigger the feels.

A game like GW2 is trying to offer a different taste all together. Their approach has satisfied many players who are just looking for something different, something a bit more casual, but it unfortunately does not satisfy the players that are looking for a game that is closer to what they used to play, simply because GW2 isn’t really like previous MMOs.

I haven’t played WSO, but from what I’ve read it is very similar to WoW in terms of gameplay and gearing (I played WoW for 4.5years and loved it—I just began to loathe gear treadmills with all of my being). I could be wrong on this, mind you. I feel like I would personally enjoy playing WSO right up until a patch/expansion drops and I have to re-gear. At that point I would call it a day and go back to GW2.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Feather farming, was that the one where you load up a ranger with a ton of traps and pretty much auto-kill tengu in Shing Jea? I tried that, it bored me to tears . . . was pretty profitable too when 10 Feathers would get you something like 390 Gold.

And there was farming for other stuff too, mostly for Nick gift trophies for the people who didn’t want to bother or who got desperate by the end of the week. I knew at least one person who did that – I bought from them a few times because I ran out of time to farm them up.

Also, I still don’t get why people want to revel nostalgic in the awesome endgame of GW1. About the best thing I can say about it was . . . you didn’t need to do it for top tier gear or anything like that. You weren’t going to be penalized by not being as effective as the other person because you didn’t run Underworld until your 2 key stopped working. The only thing which you got was pretty (and that’s debatable) weapons which, push come to shove, you could acquire without ever setting foot in there.

The ways to ‘farm’ things on GW were nigh infinite – you could opt for a plethora of different ways to farm, depending on personal preference (pvp or pve) and profitability (common material stacks vs rare material in high-end areas).

What do you have in GW2? Champ trains? Repeatable events? Fractals? Run around mining nodes? Crafting? Pvp? (rite) afaik the high-end areas are horrendously under-rewarding, while the rest boils down to a war against boredom. Judging from many replies I’ve read here, the entire game actually boils down to ‘Wars against Boredom’, unless you can ‘create your own challenges’ (!) with the help of self-imposed handicaps, which is frankly giving me the chuckles. Anything can be ‘endgame’ form that point of view, even walking through a desert – walk only on one leg and only have one bottle of water with you, gl hf.
#thechallengeiswithinyou

It honestly seems the ppl who are the happiest with this shadow of a game are the types that just wanted an elaborated version of Hello Kitty Online Adventures, devoid of any kind of real competition and challenge (innate, not self-created).
What I also notice a lot is this odd inferiority complex – if someone is wearing cool looking/expensive gear, why the need to hate on it or be bothered by it, or even say ‘ooh but me no care’?
The only problem is when good(-looking) gear and weapons are attainable in ways other than directly from the encounter in question. Prestige in and off itself is not something you should be opposed to (live and let live), gear grind on the other hand…and lack of meaningful team play outside pvp (and even there, it’s questionable), lack of a pve that won’t be just spank and tan- …dodge. A pve that will actually give a feeling you ‘matter’, and that you’re not just another drone in a zerg, or one that gets zerged.

+1 Karla Grey you sum up everything in perfect way .

KarlaGrey.5903:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Feather farming, was that the one where you load up a ranger with a ton of traps and pretty much auto-kill tengu in Shing Jea? I tried that, it bored me to tears . . . was pretty profitable too when 10 Feathers would get you something like 390 Gold.

And there was farming for other stuff too, mostly for Nick gift trophies for the people who didn’t want to bother or who got desperate by the end of the week. I knew at least one person who did that – I bought from them a few times because I ran out of time to farm them up.

Also, I still don’t get why people want to revel nostalgic in the awesome endgame of GW1. About the best thing I can say about it was . . . you didn’t need to do it for top tier gear or anything like that. You weren’t going to be penalized by not being as effective as the other person because you didn’t run Underworld until your 2 key stopped working. The only thing which you got was pretty (and that’s debatable) weapons which, push come to shove, you could acquire without ever setting foot in there.

The ways to ‘farm’ things on GW were nigh infinite – you could opt for a plethora of different ways to farm, depending on personal preference (pvp or pve) and profitability (common material stacks vs rare material in high-end areas).

What do you have in GW2? Champ trains? Repeatable events? Fractals? Run around mining nodes? Crafting? Pvp? (rite) afaik the high-end areas are horrendously under-rewarding, while the rest boils down to a war against boredom. Judging from many replies I’ve read here, the entire game actually boils down to ‘Wars against Boredom’, unless you can ‘create your own challenges’ (!) with the help of self-imposed handicaps, which is frankly giving me the chuckles. Anything can be ‘endgame’ form that point of view, even walking through a desert – walk only on one leg and only have one bottle of water with you, gl hf.
#thechallengeiswithinyou

It honestly seems the ppl who are the happiest with this shadow of a game are the types that just wanted an elaborated version of Hello Kitty Online Adventures, devoid of any kind of real competition and challenge (innate, not self-created).
What I also notice a lot is this odd inferiority complex – if someone is wearing cool looking/expensive gear, why the need to hate on it or be bothered by it, or even say ‘ooh but me no care’?
The only problem is when good(-looking) gear and weapons are attainable in ways other than directly from the encounter in question. Prestige in and off itself is not something you should be opposed to (live and let live), gear grind on the other hand…and lack of meaningful team play outside pvp (and even there, it’s questionable), lack of a pve that won’t be just spank and tan- …dodge. A pve that will actually give a feeling you ‘matter’, and that you’re not just another drone in a zerg, or one that gets zerged.

I love how you feel the need to offend people who like the game, just because you don’t. Sure that’s what I was looking for in a game. Hello Kitty online.

There are multiple ways to farm this game. Some people farm it by running dungeons. There are people who farm mats. There are people who do champ trains or EotM trains. But you know most of the farming in Guild Wars 1 I didn’t find any less boring that I do farming in Guild Wars 2. Farming is farming. If you like it you like it. If it’s boring, it’s boring.

Farming feathers, vaattirs, raptors and decayed orr emblems was boring as hell…to me.
Guild Wars 1 didn’t have any crafting at all. It didn’t have large scale PvP. And it didn’t have PvE zones where you could have more than 12 people at one time.

Some would find that boring.

That’s why it’s called an opinion.

Vayne.8563:

I love how you feel the need to offend people who like the game, just because you don’t. Sure that’s what I was looking for in a game. Hello Kitty online.

I love how you always feel offended by such things…as if games aimed at the casual demographic were something to be ashamed of. Although I never played said game myself, I’m sure it has a nice and pleasant game environment, overflowing with the little challenges you can make for yourself – the same thing everyone who seems to like GW2 is echoing, so what exactly is wrong about kittens and flowers?

Vayne.8563:

There are multiple ways to farm this game. Some people farm it by running dungeons. There are people who farm mats. There are people who do champ trains or EotM trains. But you know most of the farming in Guild Wars 1 I didn’t find any less boring that I do farming in Guild Wars 2. Farming is farming. If you like it you like it. If it’s boring, it’s boring.

I think I already listed most GW2 farm methods myself, minus perhaps the TP flipping, so no need to repeat it.
However from the GW farm methods listed here, I can’t help but notice all the more exciting ones are left out (pvp, making customized builds for a particular encounter/area, running 4 man sf or 2 man UW, or general 55hp farming, be it mo, nec, or anything – the thing they all have in common is they give you this feel of ‘hero’ when you can take on entire mobs (with or without cc/degen), and still manage to kill them). Fact is, the options were/are myrad – and you could always create your own ways of going about things. Those were the ‘little challenges’ you could create for yourself on top of the intended endgame, which is hands down the pvp, but also pve (FoW/UW/Doa/Deep/Urgoz). There is however no ‘one shoe fits all’ approach you often get to experience in GW2.

Vayne.8563:

Farming feathers, vaattirs, raptors and decayed orr emblems was boring as hell…to me.
Guild Wars 1 didn’t have any crafting at all. It didn’t have large scale PvP. And it didn’t have PvE zones where you could have more than 12 people at one time.

Some would find that boring.

That’s why it’s called an opinion.

Farming for common materials is typically less interesting (if you over-farm a single area) than doing 2 man UW/FoW, or 4 man sf, or solo tricky bosses, true.
Perhaps you should have tried more different things instead – not like you were forced to stick to a particular farm zone for whatever reason (unlike perhaps in GW2), because there were many, many options to choose from, as already mentioned.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Vayne.8563:

I love how you feel the need to offend people who like the game, just because you don’t. Sure that’s what I was looking for in a game. Hello Kitty online.

I love how you always feel offended by such things…as if games aimed at the casual demographic were something to be ashamed of. Although I never played said game myself, I’m sure it is a nice and pleasant environment, overflowing with the little challenges you can make yourself – the same thing everyone who seems to like GW2 is echoing, so what exactly is wrong about kittens?

Vayne.8563:

There are multiple ways to farm this game. Some people farm it by running dungeons. There are people who farm mats. There are people who do champ trains or EotM trains. But you know most of the farming in Guild Wars 1 I didn’t find any less boring that I do farming in Guild Wars 2. Farming is farming. If you like it you like it. If it’s boring, it’s boring.

I think I listed those myself.
However from the GW farm methods listed here, I can’t help but notice all the more exiting ones are left out (pvp, making customized builds for a particular encounter/area, running 4 man sf or 2 man UW, or general 55hp farming, be it mo, nec, or anything – the thing they all have in common is they give you this feel of ‘hero’ when you can take on entire mobs (with or without cc/degen), and still manage to kill them). Fact is, the options were/are myrad. There was no ‘one shoe fits all’ approach you often get to experience in GW2.

Vayne.8563:

Farming feathers, vaattirs, raptors and decayed orr emblems was boring as hell…to me.
Guild Wars 1 didn’t have any crafting at all. It didn’t have large scale PvP. And it didn’t have PvE zones where you could have more than 12 people at one time.

Some would find that boring.

That’s why it’s called an opinion.

Farming for common materials is typically less interesting (if you over-farm a single area) than doing 2 man UW/FoW, or 4 man sf, or solo tricky bosses, true.
Perhaps you should have tried more different things instead – not like you were forced to stick to a particular farm zone for whatever reason (unlike perhaps in GW2), because there were many, many options to choose from, as already mentioned.

Nah. I don’t like farming period. I did try solo farming ectos on a Rit. Bored the hell out of me, even though I was good at it. That’s because I’m playing the game for a completely different reasons than you are…same as Guild Wars 1. I played that game for a completely different reasons. And according to you, Guild Wars 1 was no Hello Kitty Online so maybe saying people who like this game must be looking for that is not quite accurate.

I play to be vested in my characters. I play to immerse myself in a world. In some ways, it was easier to do that in Guild Wars 1 than here, but it’s far easier for me to do this here than any other MMORPG.

I’m not averse to challenges. I’ve done almost every challenge on both games. But I don’t PLAY for challenge. It’s not what interests me. If I wanted challenge, I’d go back into publishing again, or sales. That was challenging. Winning at a video game…not so much.

I play games to relax, enjoy myself and have a good time. There’s plenty enough to challenge me in real life.

Either way, not everyone who plays this game enjoys it because of lack of challenges and I’m pretty sure most MMO players don’t play games just to do challenging content.

I really don’t like it how admitting I enjoy playing this game is tantamount to saying I want childish things.

KarlaGrey.5903:

It honestly seems the ppl who are the happiest with this shadow of a game are the types that just wanted an elaborated version of Hello Kitty Online Adventures, devoid of any kind of real competition and challenge (innate, not self-created).

Like this, right here. Really? I feel like pretty much anything I could say about what I enjoy is just going to be dismissed now, so why bother trying to say what it is I like?

What I also notice a lot is this odd inferiority complex – if someone is wearing cool looking/expensive gear, why the need to hate on it or be bothered by it, or even say ‘ooh but me no care’?

I never got it either . . . but then I don’t know if this is about how I said I found Obsidian ugly, or how I think the endgame rewards for GW1 weren’t enough to really compel me to do any of it.

But I don’t care about it beyond two things: I think something might look like it wouldn’t fit with the character, or I think it’s ridiculously expensive for something marginally “cool-looking”. It’s an aesthetic choice I make in the first case, and in the second case it’s “it’s not cool enough for me to jump through those hoops”.

Please don’t look down on me for that or try to deride me for saying that.

The only problem is when good(-looking) gear and weapons are attainable in ways other than directly from the encounter in question. Prestige in and off itself is not something you should be opposed to (live and let live), gear grind on the other hand…and lack of meaningful team play outside pvp (and even there, it’s questionable), lack of a pve that won’t be just spank and tan- …dodge. A pve that will actually give a feeling you ‘matter’, and that you’re not just another drone in a zerg, or one that gets zerged.

I highly disagree with the comment on what the “problem” is. In fact, that’s how a lot of the “prestige gear” could be earned in GW1 – buy yourself an Armbrace with farmed platinum or ectos, trade for a Tormented weapon without ever doing Domain of Anguish. Or buy Shards and Ecto off the trader steadily and get a run to get your Obsidian Armor . . .

And the rest of this paragraph meandered into a slam on the PvP and PvE aspects of the game. The problem is, the open world makes almost every encounter likely to devolve into “shove more people at it until it wins”. (Though I understand that is actually not the way to do the Great Wurm.)

Would I like more challenging stuff? Sure. I commented earlier this week on how I want to go back to Monster Hunter and go fight some of the stuff at G-rank because it’s fun and mostly challenging. (Of course, even in that game it’s child’s play to “cheese” a fight so it’s got no challenge at all.) But I don’t think the majority of the players would agree with bumping up the challenge, because they’d then feel it removed their access to the game.

You know what happened when they made some of the bosses more difficult or shook up events slightly? People stopped doing them. Especially Temple of Grenth, and Tequatl unless there was word going around there was an organized effort. Then people show up just to make it a loot pinata again.

We can talk back and forth on this, but it comes down to what’s honest and simple – when things got harder, people gave up rather than try. Push it harder, and you’ll probably drive GW2 into a game where there’s only the hardcore players hanging in there. That’s not entirely a healthy atmosphere for an MMO.

At vayne, where was the ‘immersive’ in GW2 for you again? LS? PS? In the former, you’re just a drone in a zerg – something of negligable importance, while the latter is extremely lacklustre in terms of choice and also too npc-centered.
Honestly, if you want a truly immersive world with deep story that has numerous paths to choose from, the original NWN series is hands down the way to go. I know I had a blast there, and replayed different parts of the story just to see the many different endings I could bring about. While I don’t really expect an mmo being able to pack in such things to start with, that does not mean I am happy with whatever half-baken potato is brought to the table.

Btw, rt farming is one of the least ‘challenging’ and consequently the least interesting professions to farm on. Why? Because you aren’t even doing the killing, but instead just watch your spirits do all the work.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I really don’t like it how admitting I enjoy playing this game is tantamount to saying I want childish things.

I’ll just paste my previous paragraph on this point.

as if games aimed at the casual demographic were something to be ashamed of. Although I never played said game myself, I’m sure it is a nice and pleasant environment, overflowing with the little challenges you can make yourself – the same thing everyone who seems to like GW2 is echoing, so what exactly is wrong about kittens?

Moreover, many would argue that GW2 is childish, and that without reference to hello kitty.
However just because a media is aimed at a younger audience that does in no way mean it is, or that it ought being childish.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I never got it either . . . but then I don’t know if this is about how I said I found Obsidian ugly, or how I think the endgame rewards for GW1 weren’t enough to really compel me to do any of it.

I wasn’t referring to your post in particular here, but rather the criticism of some posters that ppl want to be’ special snowflakes’ or ‘show off’, which clearly indicated said posters were bothered by players ‘flashing’ their a high-end set of gear/weapons. If this is a problem in-game, I can but wonder how they cope with such things rl.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

stuff about being able to purchase prestige items

Fair enough. I admit I am more the type that wants to see an item drop for them, rather than cough up raw cash. Simply buying (the cool) stuff in a game somewhat kills the charm for me, but I can’t say I never did it, especially around the time before GW2 came out.

On the part about challenging and the associated difficulty – firstly, as many posters before me pointed out, challenging does not (have to) equal difficult. Moreover, Anet again shot themselves in the foot when it comes to difficult content – they released a game where encounters were made relatively easy from the get-go, instead of releasing harder content and then adjusting it later on (which is what happened with GW, I suppose…whether watering down a game (too much) is good or bad is another point, however).
Naturally, there will be always be an uproar, if you raise the difficulty later on (but also if you lower it too much), which is why it’s far better to start off with more difficult and adjust things appropriately later on.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

We can talk back and forth on this, but it comes down to what’s honest and simple – when things got harder, people gave up rather than try. Push it harder, and you’ll probably drive GW2 into a game where there’s only the hardcore players hanging in there. That’s not entirely a healthy atmosphere for an MMO.

It’s best to have something for both – the hardcore, the casual and the mix of both – but the game is extremely under-delivering in that regard, and if you’re not very ‘skillful’ at creating your own hoops, you might find yourself in a war against boredom rather early on.

Welcome back Vayne.

How do you think GW2 is doing now. You keep telling people the game will get better a year ago. I honestly didn’t see too much change though.

@Karla

There are a zillion single player games I can play if I want SOLELY immersion. But I like playing with other people as well. I’m social. So it’s a multiplayer game for me.

Now a game like Guild Wars 1 was good in a lot of ways but it was also instanced and that meant never running into people randomly in the open world. It also meant every time I went into the instanced open world, I’d be alone in there with my party or heroes. I’d know exactly what’s coming.

Not quite the same in a game where it’s not instanced, and you can hit different events at different times. Voicing helps too. Far more voice in this game than in Guild Wars 1.

There are a lot of things in Guild Wars 2 that work against immersion too. I wish this game was more immersive. But it’s not. I either accept that, or I go find another MMO.

Unfortunately, I find traditional quests to lack immersion. I’d prefer to react to what’s happening in front of me, than have to talk to someone to be able to react. I don’t want a quest chain, and walls of text. That’s a problem for me. It’s why I couldn’t enjoy ESO. It felt like a game in a can.

Guild Wars 2 isn’t the perfect game for me by a long shot. It’s simply the best that’s out there now. But when I walked through that tunnel into the new part of Dry Top with the sand storm on…that was pretty kitten ed immersive to me.

Vayne.8563:

Guild Wars 2 isn’t the perfect game for me by a long shot. It’s simply the best that’s out there now. But when I walked through that tunnel into the new part of Dry Top with the sand storm on…that was pretty kitten ed immersive to me.

That’s a bold statement.

laokoko.7403:

Vayne.8563:

Guild Wars 2 isn’t the perfect game for me by a long shot. It’s simply the best that’s out there now. But when I walked through that tunnel into the new part of Dry Top with the sand storm on…that was pretty kitten ed immersive to me.

That’s a bold statement.

Well best MMO/multiplayer game for me, anyway. I just single player games differently. And when I say best game I mean the best game FOR ME. For my style of play. That’s what I had been talking about in the paragraph. Isolating individual sentences in a paragraph dulls the meaning of the sentence. Context is everything.

laokoko.7403:

Welcome back Vayne.

How do you think GW2 is doing now. You keep telling people the game will get better a year ago. I honestly didn’t see too much change though.

I think the game did get better. At least, I think the Living Story Season 2 was better than Season 1 so far. And we’ve just started. And I think Dry Top is a pretty kitten ed good zone. The wardrobe I find better. No repair costs I find better. Being able to retrait for free any time out of combat I find better. The story telling seems to be better.

It’s obviously got its flaws too (new trait system coughs). But I think in a lot of ways it is better. Admittedly it’s getting better slower than I expected it to.

Romek.4201:

Vayne, can´t you just stop spamming all day and answering everything even when you dont have to say anything?

seriously you dont make a point but you answer every single post like it would be a privat discussion with you – and than you say nothing – just empty words

seriously – you should be removed for spamming

noone kitten care what YOUR playstyle is atleast not this much as you have to spam it every single post

thx for you time and move on

I’m sorry, someone said something I found offensive, I responded to it, and since then I’ve been answering direct quotes. If you feel that I’m spamming feel free to report the post. You’re not a moderator. Or did you think the post you made is on topic and further’s the thread’s conversation somehow?

Vayne.8563:

I’m social. So it’s a multiplayer game for me.

I have to stop at this part.
You consider a game social just because you can ‘see’ other random people on the map? Most of whom you likely won’t talk to, or group up with? Or does dropping a few lines in all chat, or map chat qualify as being social? If you play with guildies and consider that part social, how is that any different than on GW?

Sorry, but how does being surrounded by random people in a world translate to social? I can easily say GW was by far more social in that regard, as it was designed in a way you actually had to play with others to achieve your goals – you were supposed to work together with others to get somewhere. It is a team-oriented game by definition, and as such the very opposite of GW2, which is HIGHLY individualistic (every player is a one-man army), and thus the very opposite of social.

GW was really good at creating bonds between people – be it positive or negative – because it was designed in a manner that facilitated and promoted communication and cooperation in various ways (the concept behind guilds and guild halls, the fact content was always something you do with others, and in pvp it boiled down to competition and the awesome feeling you experience when you work with your team in almost perfect synergy to bring down the opponent – it is SO much like rl sports in that regard, and I dare say it is what the original really boiled down to).

I honestly do not understand where you’re coming from when you say you play GW2 for the social factor, because you could do the same on GW (when it still had the playerbase for that).

KarlaGrey.5903:

Moreover, many would argue that GW2 is childish, and that without reference to hello kitty.
However just because a media is aimed at a younger audience that does in no way mean it is, or that it ought being childish.

Of course not, but there’s really a lack of things which are aimed at a demographic under adult age without getting . . . hmm, simplified and sanitized, I suppose we could say.

Last thing I remember watching which was aimed for kids and was decidedly not pulling its punches probably had to be one of three properties: Gargoyles, Batman the Animated Series (by extension, much of the DCAU with Timm in the mix), and what little I saw of “Avatar: The Last Airbender”.

Currently, I would almost add RWBY to the mix, except it’s definitely aimed a bit higher age-wise without falling into the other trap of blatant fanservice for the draw.

I wasn’t referring to your post in particular here, but rather the criticism of some posters that ppl want to be’ special snowflakes’ or ‘show off’, which clearly indicated said posters were bothered by players ‘flashing’ their a high-end set of gear/weapons. If this is a problem in-game, I can but wonder how they cope with such things rl.

They do cope with such things in RL, and don’t think it’s beyond reason to avoid such things in their leisure time. Why go through a day trying to ignore everyone apparently having greener grass on the other side of the fence to sink your mind into a fantasy . . . and have it shoved in your face there too?

I deal with it, and encourage others to do so, in the only sensible way. “Cool gear, bro.”

Fair enough. I admit I am more the type that wants to see an item drop for them, rather than cough up raw cash. Simply buying (the cool) stuff in a game somewhat kills the charm for me, but I can’t say I never did it, especially around the time before GW2 came out.

Agreed. I’d rather earn it than buy it, but I like having the option to buy it.

On the part about challenging and the associated difficulty – firstly, as many posters before me pointed out, challenging does not (have to) equal difficult.

I’m going to have to ask how you divorce the two things, because a challenge without difficulty is . . . to borrow a phrase from ZP “having to wade through a corridor of balloons”. A challenge which doesn’t have difficulty for a person is just a hoop to jump through, and that winds up flowing into the issue of “why do I have to grind with these things?”

Honestly, I rather think there are three distinct types of difficulty you can put into a game:

Skill based: This is based on your mastery of a certain element in the game. Jumping puzzles, combat, I suppose you could throw trivia and logic puzzles into there too. Essentially, this divides those who can beat the challenge into those who don’t, and those who will. Those who don’t, and either can’t or won’t improve, are going to feel burned. That’s one of the more important risks here.

Luck based: Random number generation to proceed, such as . . . well, Precursor drops to get your Legendary. I think we can all agree “luck based challenges” should stay minimal and locked up in a closet somewhere, taken out for a quick show for some fancy do-nothing shinies, and kicked back in the closet where it puts the lotion on its skin.

Time based: Another one people hate, this is a challenge where it’s not about mastery of skill or luck, but of memorizing a pattern and waiting for the pattern to open up so you can get through. Some jumping puzzles are like this, and some are a different kind of “time based” (gods blast you Mad King’s Tower!). Then there’s the “challenge” of earning Ascended gear – which relies a lot on time more than money or skill.

So, three ways of making things “challenging” through “difficulty”. And this is without touching “fake difficulty” (see: “Kaizo Trap”). Of these three, one is probably the one to go with for what you mean by “difficulty/challenge” – and it’s one where you really have to be sure you’re not going over the line and leaving most of your players unable to complete it.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Vayne.8563:

I’m social. So it’s a multiplayer game for me.

I have to stop at this part.
You consider a game social just because you can ‘see’ other random people on the map? Most of whom you likely won’t talk to, or group up with? Or does dropping a few lines in all chat, or map chat qualify as being social? If you play with guildies and consider that part social, how is that any different than on GW?

Sorry, but how does being surrounded by random people in a world translate to social? I can easily say GW was by far more social in that regard, as it was designed in a way you actually had to play with others to achieve your goals – you were supposed to worked together with others to get somewhere. It is a team-oriented game by definition, and as such the very opposite of GW2, which is HIGHLY individualistic (every player is a one-man army), and thus the very opposite of social.

I honestly do not understand where you’re coming from.

Actually, Guild Wars 2 gives me a chance to play with my entire guild in a zone at one time if I want. I don’t randomly see strangers. I randomly see guldies. That’s pretty cool.
Here’s something else that can happen here that could never happen in Guild Wars 1.

If I’m down in an event, a random stranger I don’t know can come and rez me. That doesn’t happen at all in Guild Wars 1. That’s one of the things about MMOs. You can make friends WHILE playing. I have. One of the people in my guild right now is in my guild because during one of the holiday events, I waited to spawn an event till her friend showed up. I was happy to wait. I made a friend.

In Guild Wars 1 you could make friends in outposts, but you’d have to spend time in outposts to do that…which meant you weren’t actually playing the game. Many of the people in my guild were met in the open world by other members of the guild. That’s social.

Social doesn’t have to mean team based, or organized. That’s a different thing that social.

In my experience, social people don’t really require coordinated end game per se. Some of them do, naturally, and some of them are just happy to be social. Some people are happy to solo while chatting with the guild. That’s social too.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Sorry, but how does being surrounded by random people in a world translate to social? I can easily say GW was by far more social in that regard, as it was designed in a way you actually had to play with others to achieve your goals – you were supposed to worked together with others to get somewhere. It is a team-oriented game by definition, and as such the very opposite of GW2, which is HIGHLY individualistic (every player is a one-man army), and thus the very opposite of social.

GW1 was less social for me most times – I had to learn in the beginning to make do with Henchmen because I couldn’t always wait for a group which wasn’t going to go “ew, ranger, ew, roll something else”.

At least in GW2 I can actually interact with people a lot more just running around doing stuff. It’s not as fun as when I was in a big alliance where we could chatter away while doing whatever, but that’s somewhat replaced with being able to do random fun-silly stuff like seeing who has the most non-repeating ice puns while we do the Claw of Jormag.

To add to my last point – if all I wanted was social interaction? I’d go back to a MUD or IRC room or something where I am not really so limited. Or I’d just go draft MTG again :P

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Of course not, but there’s really a lack of things which are aimed at a demographic under adult age without getting . . . hmm, simplified and sanitized, I suppose we could say.

I’d say simplicity is good, censorship on the other hand…

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

They do cope with such things in RL, and don’t think it’s beyond reason to avoid such things in their leisure time. Why go through a day trying to ignore everyone apparently having greener grass on the other side of the fence to sink your mind into a fantasy . . . and have it shoved in your face there too?

I deal with it, and encourage others to do so, in the only sensible way. “Cool gear, bro.”

That’s a valid point, however it’s nigh impossible to achieve that, because it is still those same people playing mmos.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Agreed. I’d rather earn it than buy it, but I like having the option to buy it.

Rather than the option to buy, I’m more for alternative ways of acquiring such items (e.g. from pvp), or perhaps unlocking by solving a mystery or beating a series of puzzles. But yea, this point is somewhat moot.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

stuff on challenge vs difficulty

I admit it is tricky. If I recall correctly, Godzzila made some lengthy posts on this issue in the last few pages (e.g. on page 7).
I think a combination of all 3 would be the best – a little bit of skill, some time, and not too much rng.

At vayne, you posted

I don’t randomly see strangers. I randomly see guldies. That’s pretty cool.

How is that social though? I can also randomly come across guildies or ally members in RA, or in a pve outpost, or in HA. And from there on, I can ask them to tag along, or I just move on without a word if I don’t know them well.

You can make friends WHILE playing.

Much like you can in GW – you team up and see this person is pretty fun(ny) and/or skillful and wish to play with them again, so you make the contact. As long as I am not afk for a long period of time, I am playing the game – whether I am in an OP or an instanced zone – it’s actually easier to find friends in instanced content, as you get to see more of their personality when you get to play with them for a while. And no, it doesn’t have to be some high-end coordination-intensive area.
Who knows, you might make a new friend after finishing a quest or dungeon in what was originally a group of complete strangers.
I made most of my friends on GW while playing with them, so I cannot really agree with a statement that you can find friends more easily on GW2…for some odd reason I felt much more disconnected there.

In my experience, social people don’t really require coordinated end game per se. Some of them do, naturally, and some of them are just happy to be social. Some people are happy to solo while chatting with the guild. That’s social too.

It doesn’t have to be end-game, really.
Also, it depends on the guild, I’d say. You chat with the guild where there are people you know and/or people you’re comfortable with.
I prefer small close-knit guilds to large communities, where you barely know anyone, much less know them well. People I randomly help in open world and chat a bit with are acquaintances, not really friends. But I’m sensing we might get caught up in another battle of semantics here, so yea,

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

GW1 was less social for me most times – I had to learn in the beginning to make do with Henchmen because I couldn’t always wait for a group which wasn’t going to go “ew, ranger, ew, roll something else”.

But profession prejudice happens in every game, the difference is GW2 puts the focus on the individual rather than one’s reliance on a team (so it arguably matters less what you play), which however is a double-edged sword, and for those who experienced the best of GW’s team-based game design, the pros do not outweigh the cons.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

At least in GW2 I can actually interact with people a lot more just running around doing stuff. It’s not as fun as when I was in a big alliance where we could chatter away while doing whatever, but that’s somewhat replaced with being able to do random fun-silly stuff like seeing who has the most non-repeating ice puns while we do the Claw of Jormag.

Fair enough. I started playing GW with a clan from a different game, so I normally had people to play with, and by the time they quit I made enough friends to play with.

But I somehow can’t shake the feeling many missed out on the good parts of GW because of this or that unfortunate coincidence (bad play times or bad experience with randoms).
Oh well.

Godzzila.3752:

You can level really fast in this game which is why I think this becomes an even bigger issue… When the game was first released I got in with 3 other friends, we started playing at a steady (not speedruning or anything like that, just normal) pace and we got to lv 80 WAAY before 2 weeks of playtime, so we thought: “Cool! If we level that fast they sure must have a late game to play now!” Nope… Just sitting around…
In the end even before the first month of release all of my 3 friends just stoped playing it (so did I) but then I keep coming back ‘cause I know how much potential this game has, but 1 year in and I don’t see much progress towards solving this “issue”

Has it occurred to you that since this game is comprised mostly of casual players with an interest in just doing as they wish, that for that type of player, there is no issue to solve?

Godzzila.3752:

This game as 0 sense of reward. Nothing you do feels rewardful. You have no point in doing anything after getting lvl 80, the journey to lvl 80 is awesome, but you get there REALLY quickly. After that everything is just for cosmetic purposes, it’s like playing Sims where creating your charecter takes a long time… Doesn’t matter the stats. You won’t need them for anything. There is no “higher tier gear zones” and lower tier. And this is NOT a game decision. This was NOT something they sit and thought: “Lets make it so that you don’t have to keep seeking for better gear” this is a game design flaw. People play games not because they like looking at stuff but because of the experience-reward balance. If you have a lot of great maps and no reward for that the game becomes boring and pointless. If you have a lot of rewards for a bad expirience you get a really frustrating game. So saying that this game is just seeking the Not Need To Work For Anything expirience, im sorry but that’s bs.

The lack of a gear treadmill was a game decision. As to

People play games not because they like looking at stuff but because of the experience-reward balance. If you have a lot of great maps and no reward for that the game becomes boring and pointless.

This is only your opinion, not fact. I happen to enjoy the vistas. For me sometimes seeing a new map is reward enough.

Gear makes it easier to handle certain types of combat, but it’s Not Like you are going to get this awesome drop that suddenly makes you feel more uber.

Speaking for myself , I happen to like not having a gear treadmill. As for ascended, I have no idea How to even get my hands On ascended gear, nor do I care, me and the wife are content to duo level 20 norns one day, and then level 10 asuras the next,..sometimes we play our level 80 humans for fun…

For fun..Not for gear grind.

As I said, you have a Lot of opinions, but you seem to feel they are facts.

Vayne.8563:

Vespero.6180:

Romek.4201:

to make it simple

a game need to be PLAYED not WATCHED like a movie

THIS^

I’m playing the game.

I’m confused. I thought I was Playing a game too. Where is this Gw2 Movie that Romek is talking about? I Might want to hunt it down when I take a break from playing the game

You know, GW1 did promote playing with others…at first. But, as soon as Heroes were introduced, that fell by the wayside pretty quickly. No one had to team up anymore, and many stopped doing so. It was a complaint heard often. It truly changed the game….social-wise.

So, unless you were there that first year or so, it became much less social than Guild Wars 2 ever has been.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

You know, GW1 did promote playing with others…at first. But, as soon as Heroes were introduced, that fell by the wayside pretty quickly. No one had to team up anymore, and many stopped doing so. It was a complaint heard often. It truly changed the game….social-wise.

So, unless you were there that first year or so, it became much less social than Guild Wars 2 ever has been.

So true – unless you were lucky to have a very socially active guild. I was lucky that I was in several guilds like that. We coordinated through our guild forum and on TS.

Godzzila.3752:

Maybe because the WoW system actually works? It keeps people interested and comming back, gives a sense of progression and reward, makes you feel useful in a group and overall just gives you something to do…
It worked for years, it still works, and maybe there is a reason for that…

Maybe you should play WoW instead? I happen to play both. There are things in WoW that i Like, and things in Gw2 that I like.

But maybe Instead of trying to turn Gw2 into WoW, you should just play WoW.

No one does WoW type gameplay better than WoW does.

Vayne.8563:

Godzzila.3752:

Vayne.8563:

Godzzila.3752:

Vayne.8563:

Because some of us want to play a multiplayer game with that kind of sensibility and that was lacking in MMO space. That’s why. That’s exactly why.

Are you saying someone who enjoys that KIND of experience can’t also be social and want to play with other people? I bet there are a lot more of us out here than you think their are.

I’m a social guy. I like being in my guild. I like playing with friends. And I like not having to sit there and plan a raid for an hour before I jump in and attempt to run it so I might or might not get gear I need to go to the next raid. I don’t want an instanced game. I want to play in the open world.

I’m happy to trade Skyrim’s solitude for a social MMO that centers around stuff I enjoy.

There are dozens of MMOs for people who like other stuff. Can’t we just have one?

Nope, that makes no sense. This game as no “Social Features”. You have chat and that’s it. You can Play with your friends and like your guild in a game that’s well made

You’ve got to be joking. You don’t need social features to play with people. Want to hear a social feature? Mumble. That’s a social feature.

We do our guild missions together, run dungeons together, clear zones together. I can’t do that in Skyrim.

I’m not sure why you don’t understand this.

So… when exactly does “Start Having End-Game Features” start overidding “Being Able to Play With Friends and/or Guild”?

It’s changing the game, that’s what it has to do with it. You asked the question, I answered. This is how the conversation went.

I play this game and like it, without a traditional end game. Traditional end games tend to make the community more competive rather than cooperative. I wanted a cooperative non-competitive PvE experience to enjoy with friends. This game offers that.

Traditional end games creates haves and have nots. That’s not what the devs are trying to do here. You suggest that many of the things I like would be better in single player games and you’re right about that. But you’re leaving out the social aspect.

People have come on these forums asking for things like dueling, dps meters, gear check, all the things that come with the end game you want. And every time someone posts for stuff like this, there’s a bunch of people who shout it down. Not one or two. A bunch of people. Why?

Because those things ruin the type of game we want to play. Adding the types of things you’re asking for will inevitably lead to the kind of game I don’t want to play.

And because there are dozens of games made for you and only one game (so far) made for us, it would be nice if it remained a game for us.

Vayne I have to agree. I Like this game as it is. I am sure the game might be better if it had some features from Guild Wars (cought) Sub-classes (cough)… But I have learned to stop being resentful of what I wasn’t given, and learned to actually enjoy what I have.

Started playing Not 1…but 2 engineers. a Norn, and an Asura. I happen to Like asuras now.

Ok, I went off On a tangent. This game is Unique. There are 30 or 40 games out there that already have what the OP wants. Maybe the OP needs to just accept that this game is not for him, and doesn’t have what he wants.

It would be More fun for him to play a game that has what he wants already in it. Coming here and demanding WoW type endgame makes as much sense as me going to the WoW forums and demanding they do away with mounts and put waypoints In instead.

Godzzila.3752:

Behellagh.1468:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Danikat.8537:

I never really understood the whole “end game” concept.

End game is the part of the game that gets the least attention during development, and also the part of the game many players race to get to, spending as little time as possible going through the parts of the game that get the most work pre-launch.

MMO players have become trained to level up ASAP to get to the “endgame” and are confused when a game is all about the journey and not the final destination. This is what generates a lot of the dislike about this game as voiced on the forums (another source are disgruntled GW PvP players). Because the tropes that they’ve been trained to accept aren’t here, the triad, mounts, vertical progression, structured raids, etc. It’s like being raised on FPS and then playing a stealth FPS. It’s only natural to be confused.

About the journey… I could agree with you if it didn’t take you around 3 maybe 4 days to reach leval cap from level 1. The first time you ever play this game it can take a few weeks but after that you can easily hit cap in a weekend or so… So, where is this journey? And it’s not like you would be rushing or anything is just that you already know what happned and because this game was made to be so easy to level that it raises the question: “Why?”

Only games that know that their content is focused on late game do this kind of stuff, for example: WoW gives you already level 80 chars, makes you level twice as fast when playing with friends… But that’s because they know that their content is late game. So why does it make that this game is so flipping easy to level just so that after a couple of days you are stuck with nothing to do?
And it’s not like it has any replay value, and aNet does know that (they keep giving insta level 20 for a reason) the story is always the same and most of the decisions are just to simulate choice. They give you no diffrence in the plot what so ever, just create the illusion of choice (other than that time you pick what order to follow, every decision is pretty much like this).
Don’t get me wrong the story is pretty interesting (having in count what MMO’s story usually is), the first time i did it with my warrior was amazing! But after having to do it all over again for my thief and then later to my guadian… It kinda lost it’s charm…
A game that rushes you to level 80 like this should have something up its sleeve to hit you in the face once you hit lvl cap, instead it just says: “I hope you had all the fun reaching level 80, now go ahead and collect skins.”

Me and the wife take our time, and we don’t hit level 80 in a weekend. Then again, we never tried. What we enjoy doing is hunting down skill points, doing story quests, hearts, and map completions. We also Like Looking for veterans and champions.

I Like playing WoW, but I don’t compare WoW to gw2 anymore. I can appreciate each game for what it is. I can enjoy what make both fun to play for me.

It seems to me that you like playing WoW.

This is not WoW. And I for one, speaking only for myself, do not want it turned into WoW, because a Player that liks WoW wants this game to be a WoW clone.

Maybe you made a mistake buying this game? … maybe you need to accept that Gw2 will not have what you enjoy in WoW. Maybe you just need to look for what you want in a game that has what you want…. Like WoW.

Vayne.8563:

Godzzila.3752:

Vayne.8563:

Godzzila.3752:

I think by avid players he means people that actual feel that are getting better as they play, not players that are just Ok by using the base skills / mechanics of the game and that want to “master” them

Yes, I’ve gotten much better at the game, and I’m improving all the time. But I’m still not looking to be challenged regularly or rather, as often as I want to be challenged there’s enough in the game to do that for me. I’m not saying Anet shouldn’t add challenging content. I’m saying that whatever Anet adds, it’s not going to be enough unless they focus on it, which they can’t afford to do.

TBH I don’t think they can afford that much time in the gemshop either, but the great majority of content being released for this game is Gemshop items…

Yes for example this week’s temshop items are a bunch of stuff they introduced earlier in a pack and a re-skinned charr backpack. Obviously they put huge work in it.

Yeah, and its bad when dulfy says the starting pack or whatever is a waste of gems…

Godzzila.3752:

Vayne.8563:

Nick.6972:

Compare the open world content to high level Fractals.
Which gets more frequent updates and new content.
Now. Which gets played more often? Which one doesn’t because of the lack of updates and repetitiveness?

FOTM alone is makes less than 1% of the whole the available PvE content hence gets played far less.

And I’ve never heard of Lord Of The Rings online.
Provide the same info with Wildstar.

It’s been provided for Guild Wars 1 and WoW. Can’t give you info on Wildstar, but I’d bet that if the game doesn’t attract and hold casuals the game will end up with a very small player base.

Do you guys not listen to what devs have said from different games over the years?

Casuals are a REALLY small portion of gamers.
Also WoW prooves you wrong, it had the greatest online community any game ever had and even though its not at its peak anymore, it’s still pretty high.

I believe there is a Bit of a disconnect between you and reality.
This sort of proves it. There used to be a time when games were made for hardcore players. Those days are long gone and far away.

Since the launch of WoW, and the " simplification" of MMO’s the largest segment of the playerbase….and the fastest growing…is the casual market.

One reason is, that as the hardcore players age, they have other responsibilities. ( Gotta work to pay the internet bill..or they can’t be hardcore or casual.)

I for one USED to be hardcore. Now i consider myself casual, I have embraced my inner carebear bunny slippers wearing Plushy backpack wearing asura… and I have to say , I have never been more content.

casuals are the growing demographic in MMO’s today. casuals are the largest demographic in MMO’s today.

You saying " casuals are a small minority…" well it tells me why you can be so wrong. There is a Bit of a disconnect between your mind-space, and reality.

Taygus.4571:

SkiTz.4590:

Vayne.8563:

Nick.6972:

Compare the open world content to high level Fractals.
Which gets more frequent updates and new content.
Now. Which gets played more often? Which one doesn’t because of the lack of updates and repetitiveness?

FOTM alone is makes less than 1% of the whole the available PvE content hence gets played far less.

And I’ve never heard of Lord Of The Rings online.
Provide the same info with Wildstar.

It’s been provided for Guild Wars 1 and WoW. Can’t give you info on Wildstar, but I’d bet that if the game doesn’t attract and hold casuals the game will end up with a very small player base.

Do you guys not listen to what devs have said from different games over the years?

You think GW2 has a massive player base? (not including china) I would be shocked if theres even close to 50k concurrent players at peak times in EU+NA

Regardless, the point I think is that there is MORE THAN ENOUGH casual content in this game already.
What on earth could possibly drive away more players than it already has to add just something remotely challenging content or revamp dungs to add a harder mode with better rewards? even if everyone can’t do it, its something to progress towards. compared to other terrible forms of progression this game has.

Right..
how often id lv50 fractals completed?
Do you play lv50 fracs? in zerk ascended gear?

How often does arah get completed? (can you solo arah? )
or TA aetherblade path?

The majority of the community don’t want to even aim to be able to complete them.

And most importantly, for the hardcore players, how long do these dungeons stay challenging?

I completed Arah. I had an awesome time, then again, I was with an awesome group. The funny thing is, this was Like close to a year ago.

I don’t begrudge people wanting casual content. I am liking the feeling of Just roleplaying now, I Like PvE, and I agree with vayne… the Only people that think that Hardcore raiders are the majority are hardcore raiders.

casual players deserve to have a game that accomodates them as well. This game doesn’t have " endgame" as the OP defines Endgame. Instead of demanding it in such petulant patronizing arrogant tones, maybe he should Just go play something that gives him what he wants, he won’t find it hear.

Not if I have anything to say about it.

(stands up for her fellow casuals, with balled fists)

What’s the deal of saying this is a “social game”?
Social game my a**!

This game does NOT have any developed social-features, in fact EVERY-SINGLE “SOCIAL-FEATURE” present in this game as been present in 90% of every other MMO and most of the times, WAAY more deep and developed. (such as guilds, guilds in this game barely have any point other than just having a group that sometimes may do a repetitive challenge). The parties rarely bring anything social-wise (since most of them are just people who want to get through content X asap and therefore don’t even chat, and the rest are just taxis to other megaservers), the chat is the same as every other game whit little to no relevence (most of the time it’s just about people asking how to get to vista/poi/wp/sp X), the LS/PS (which for some reason some people seem to be passionate and conviced that is the greatest thing to ever be created) IS COMPLETLY INSTANCED, PUTTING YOU AWAY FROM EVERY OTHER PLAYER, social features (such as Housing/Guild Halls) are NOT being implemented anytime soon and in the end there is NO events related to community interaction (other than zerg-zerg-zerg-zerg, and btw, zergs are by far the most non-social thing)

So I would REALLY like someone to explain this “social game” theory. Is it because you may make friends during the way? If it is so, every other MMO is still a social game because this can be done in every single one of them, and this one still falls apart.

Vayne.8563:

Zardul.3952:

remember what i have said, and i gaurentee in a year or 2 when you feel the same you will think back to this.

and be like " ahhhh he was right.. why have i wasted my time?"

Don’t guarantee it. I’m from a generation of people who make their own fun. It’s a very different thought process. I don’t really need to be spoonfed stuff. If I like the world and I like the setup and I like the mechanics, I’ll find things to entertain myself.

Feel free to talk for yourself. Try not to talk for me.

(wrinkles her eyebrows Ina thoughtful frown)

Vayne, the More I hear what you have to say, the more I find Myself agreeing with you.

Should I be concerned? (just teasing)

Godzzila.3752:

What’s the deal of saying this is a “social game”?
Social game my a**!

This game does NOT have any developed social-features, in fact EVERY-SINGLE “SOCIAL-FEATURE” present in this game as been present in 90% of every other MMO and most of the times, WAAY more deep and developed. (such as guilds, guilds in this game barely have any point other than just having a group that sometimes may do a repetitive challenge). The parties rarely bring anything social-wise (since most of them are just people who want to get through content X asap and therefore don’t even chat, and the rest are just taxis to other megaservers), the chat is the same as every other game whit little to no relevence (most of the time it’s just about people asking how to get to vista/poi/wp/sp X), the LS/PS (which for some reason some people seem to be passionate and conviced that is the greatest thing to ever be created) IS COMPLETLY INSTANCED, PUTTING YOU AWAY FROM EVERY OTHER PLAYER, social features (such as Housing/Guild Halls) are NOT being implemented anytime soon and in the end there is NO events related to community interaction (other than zerg-zerg-zerg-zerg, and btw, zergs are by far the most non-social thing)

So I would REALLY like someone to explain this “social game” theory. Is it because you may make friends during the way? If it is so, every other MMO is still a social game because this can be done in every single one of them, and this one still falls apart.

A game the requires you to group doesn’t make a game social. What makes a game social is that you can play with people and not have to group. Socialization doesn’t just mean being in a party with someone. It means being with people in general. I’ll give you the simplest example.

I was playing WoW and I shot a creature. Some guy comes yelling at me for tagging the guy he was waiting to kill. I mined a node. Some guy is yelling at me because it’s his node. He was fighting something nearby. I didn’t even realize he was there. When you have situations like tagging and kill stealing and node stealing…these are competitive things, not cooperative things.

In Guild Wars 2, I run around and I join any fight I want without having to think. Anyone can rez me, without wasting a skill slot on a rez. I can get buffs from random people, even those not in my party.

Having stuff that forces you to socialize because you have to talk to strangers doesn’t make a game social. Because you can’t really make antisocial people social. Social players will be social whether or not the game requires it. Anti-social people won’t. You’d probably be stunned at how many people solo WoW.

WoW is known for it’s toxic atmosphere. Guild Wars 2 isn’t. I don’t know, maybe there’s a reason for that.

@Vayne so, you are saying this game is social because ONLY the other games have as*holes? Wha?

This game as PLEENTY of that too!
First time I played story of AC people left the party left and right because of “those idiots noobs”(!), the first time I tried playing fractals people left because of me not knowing what to do (and everytime I play low-level fracs and there are people that don’t know what to do, It happens again and again people leaving), so stop pretending that the community of this game is paradise and cooperative, the only times in this game people cooperate is when they are forced to do so (Dry Top, Crown Pavillion…) and even then it’s a chore to make most of them realize what they have to do, since most people explain what to do by being complete jer*s and therefore other people ignoring them.

So, stop pretending that this game has the greatest community and that only other games have the toxic “bad” players.
As*holes exist EVERYWHERE as do great and fun people exist EVERYWHERE.

Zardul.3952:

Beldin.5498:

Zardul.3952:

Then i wish you never get bored of doing the same thing everyday.. like millions of past and gone GW2 players have experienced.

If that is SOOOOO much fun .. why are you here then ? Why don’t you play any of
the games out there with those feature instead of trying to destroy GW2 for all
player who love the game for what it actually is ?

I just can’t understand why people that seem to hate this game so much and love
other games sooo much more .. simply don’t play those other games.

i dont hate Gw2.
i love it, but i can feel the creeping feeling of Bordem knockin at my door as soon as i log on.

i would love to say theres something fun to look forward to on this game but REALISTICALLY there isnt.

im a hardcore gamer i played pretty much every MMO out there. and currently GW2 is my main one. but i know when something is dying out and what of.
WoW – 7 years

Still being played. I still play it.

Runescape – 2 years

Still being played.

Gw1 – 3 years

Still being played. I still play it.

Skyrim – 2 years ( if you count that)

No I don’t but, still being played.

and currently Gw2- 2 years

Still being played.

Experience has taught me when things need to change.

Your list shows a bunch of games that are still in existence, and have a playerbase that plays them. You kind of shot yourself In the foot there.

The ONLY thing you proved is that when you get bored of games, you get bored of games, and because you have the tastes you have, the games you mentioned no longer challenge you, so you play them less and less til you stop.

Not sure what you feel that has to do with trends in game consumption by everyone else.

Vayne.8563:

Godzzila.3752:

Vayne.8563:

Godzzila.3752:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Amere.9607:

mtpelion.4562:

Gear treadmills are not progression. They create the illusion of progression in order to keep you paying a subscription fee. There is a reason they are called “carrot on a stick” and that reason is not complimentary.

In GW2, progression is what you make of it. You set your own goals and then try to achieve them. If you don’t feel like you are progressing it is because you’ve not set progressive goals for yourself. If you are incapable of setting progressive goals, then by all means, return to a game that tricks you into handing them money for no reason.

how come visiting 100% vistas is a more “progressive” goal than earning a new gloves?

now, don’t get me wrong, i don’t want new item tiers. but the magic about them is that they bring new content along.

but why are you trying to say, how this game should be played to people with diffrent expectations?

Gear grind doesn’t bring “new” content. All it does is give the developers an easy way out. They recycle old encounters, old mechanics, slap on a new paint scheme and up the numbers involved. More hp and more defense does not make for a “new” more interesting encounter.

I’m not against having more skins added to the game, just the addition of more stat tiers. I know some people enjoy the hunt for rare, elusive looks and I’m perfectly ok with that. As long as that rare exclusive look is limited to the cosmetic aspect.

They don’t have gear grind but still they are doing everything you say they usually do:
Recyle Old Encounters: CHECK;
Recycle Old Mechanics: CHECK;

The only thing they are missing right now is slapping new paint scheme, but I honestly think that they shouldn’t be far away from that

As I’ve pointed out there is NEW content. You’re saying it’s recycled and I’ve pointed out to you differences. You choose to ignore those differences, saying they’re not different enough. Which is fine. but that’s not what you’re saying.

Anyone saying Dry Top is recycled is being disingenuous. It shows a distinct lack of respect for the amount of thought and energy that went into putting it together.

Dry Top it IS being recycled tho…
You have no new mechanics what so ever in any of the events, the events are diffrent but nevertheless the same. “Dodge this or you fall / die!” / “Clear this zone!” / “Hit this champion!”

What is so diffrent about every other event-based maps?

Oh and by the way, while I was here notice what just happen (attachment), nobody cares, they just farm whatever they want because the kittenty reward system rewards you for that…

So how is the clearing the mine recycled? How is rescuing the 12 people from south mine recycled? How is the light bridge event recycled?

And the whole theme of the zone is new, including the sand storm.

Vaybe, what he is saying is, that if you find a new type of cake you never had before, and you love the taste, and find it unique and Interesting….it cannot be a nrew type of cake, and cannot be unique, because he’s seen the same ingredients before…. Just not all together… some In One type of cake, some In another… and maybe In different quantities.

ya..see Choclate Fudge swirl marble cake is the same as Vanilla Custard, because Both contain milk, flour, baking powder, eggs and sugar. Don’t even try to say they are different.

Like many others, I really love the game as it is. Rather than reinventing the wheel, I think we just need more to do within the current game components/systems.

Open world and story seem pretty solid right now. There are three things I really want to see added at this point:

1. New Guild Missions (probably the number one thing we need right now imo)
2. New Dungeons/Fractals (this is the longest we’ve gone without new 5 man content)
2. The trait/skill point progression system they talked about several months ago

This is, of course, just PVE. PvP and WvW need love too, but in different ways.

Godzzila.3752:

@Vayne so, you are saying this game is social because ONLY the other games have as*holes? Wha?

This game as PLEENTY of that too!
First time I played story of AC people left the party left and right because of “those idiots noobs”(!), the first time I tried playing fractals people left because of me not knowing what to do (and everytime I play low-level fracs and there are people that don’t know what to do, It happens again and again people leaving), so stop pretending that the community of this game is paradise and cooperative, the only times in this game people cooperate is when they are forced to do so (Dry Top, Crown Pavillion…) and even then it’s a chore to make most of them realize what they have to do, since most people explain what to do by being complete jer*s and therefore other people ignoring them.

So, stop pretending that this game has the greatest community and that only other games have the toxic “bad” players.
As*holes exist EVERYWHERE as do great and fun people exist EVERYWHERE.

I’m saying I played those games and people were not friendly. The only real exception to that in my experience was Lotro. In other games, people were pretty much out for themselves. They had dueling. Open world PvP. All that kind of stuff. Everyone was a noob. Very few people, by percentage anyway, were friendly and welcoming. This is because the features of the game rewarded people for being selfish.

In this game, you’re rewarded for rezzing people. There’s not only experience, there’s an achievement and a title. The game is training people to work TOGETHER. Which fosters a more social more caring atmosphere. More carebear if you will.

As a social person I enjoy Guild Wars 2 because it has less griefers than most games intentionally because of the game’s design. That’s not holes at all. I had a very different feeling playing WoW and Rift than I get from this game. A tangible difference in the experience. Many have commented on this, I’m hardly alone in this. It’s even been part of some reviews of Guild Wars 2.

It’s not that other games had “holes”. It’s that the design of other games encouraged competition instead of cooperation.

Amere.9607:

stupid thread.

is there an endgame? no.
are we, as community going to create a discussion and extract points from that? no, we just going to whine, and blame each other for stuff.
can we, as community do something? nope, we are to busy arguing with vayne at forums, because, uknow, that’s how things work

lots of kittening, very little sence. thats kinda ok theese times?

I’m not arguing with Vayne, I think he makes sense. I used to argue with Vayne, until I stopped myself from responding one day, and actually listened to what he had to say.

Vayne.8563:

Godzzila.3752:

@Vayne so, you are saying this game is social because ONLY the other games have as*holes? Wha?

This game as PLEENTY of that too!
First time I played story of AC people left the party left and right because of “those idiots noobs”(!), the first time I tried playing fractals people left because of me not knowing what to do (and everytime I play low-level fracs and there are people that don’t know what to do, It happens again and again people leaving), so stop pretending that the community of this game is paradise and cooperative, the only times in this game people cooperate is when they are forced to do so (Dry Top, Crown Pavillion…) and even then it’s a chore to make most of them realize what they have to do, since most people explain what to do by being complete jer*s and therefore other people ignoring them.

So, stop pretending that this game has the greatest community and that only other games have the toxic “bad” players.
As*holes exist EVERYWHERE as do great and fun people exist EVERYWHERE.

I’m saying I played those games and people were not friendly. The only real exception to that in my experience was Lotro. In other games, people were pretty much out for themselves. They had dueling. Open world PvP. All that kind of stuff. Everyone was a noob. Very few people, by percentage anyway, were friendly and welcoming. This is because the features of the game rewarded people for being selfish.

In this game, you’re rewarded for rezzing people. There’s not only experience, there’s an achievement and a title. The game is training people to work TOGETHER. Which fosters a more social more caring atmosphere. More carebear if you will.

As a social person I enjoy Guild Wars 2 because it has less griefers than most games intentionally because of the game’s design. That’s not holes at all. I had a very different feeling playing WoW and Rift than I get from this game. A tangible difference in the experience. Many have commented on this, I’m hardly alone in this. It’s even been part of some reviews of Guild Wars 2.

It’s not that other games had “holes”. It’s that the design of other games encouraged competition instead of cooperation.

That’s YOUR expirience and that doesn’t make a game more or less social based on it. I played most of the free mmorpgs and tried a lot of the paid ones, most of them people where not MLP Friendly but where pretty normal, just like GW2, and they didn’t go around pretending the game was social just because it may or may not be less toxic than other communities.

It is becoming increasingly impossible to have a real conversation about the original topic because of the bickering back and forth (about things that have nothing to do with the topic). Two to three people disagreeing with each other are drowning everyone else out and strangling any chance this conversation has of going anywhere.

If people can’t get back on topic – in a constructive way – I vote that a moderator just close this thread.

I think you are missing the point of core cooperation rather than competitiveness. It is more ‘social’ to cooperate or, at least, not have to compete to get mats from nodes, or XP and drops from mobs. It fosters a friendlier environment, where you may make a friend, rather than an enemy because no one is irritated that you ‘stole’ his/her kill or material or whatever.

That’s all. Geez!

OT – I enjoy what this game offers, and I don’t feel the need for any of the OP’s proposed ‘endgame’. There are, of course, things I would like added to the game, but I’m sure most would not consider them their definition of ‘endgame’.

I think that the conversation about how social this game is is directly linked to the topic in the OP.

The end game ties into everything else. It’s part of the over all game design. The more competitive the end game, the more attractive this game becomes to players who don’t fit in with the over all vision the company had for the game. They wanted a welcoming, friendly cooperative PvE.

The more difficult the content, the more people will insist on bringing X profession and Y build. This was the sorts of problems that were endemic to Guild War 1. It wasn’t just groups you wanted. It was an imbagon Paragon. An r8 ursan. A 600 monk. An iway or whatever was the flavor of the month to run the Underworld or VS farming.

This game is made to play any profession you want and for most of the game you can. I still don’t think I’d like to try Duncan Black in Slaver’s Exile in Guild Wars 1 without the swap skill.

The end game sets the pace and tone of the game. Any end game in this game would have to be added very very carefully.

Nerelith.7360:

Amere.9607:

stupid thread.

is there an endgame? no.
are we, as community going to create a discussion and extract points from that? no, we just going to whine, and blame each other for stuff.
can we, as community do something? nope, we are to busy arguing with vayne at forums, because, uknow, that’s how things work

lots of kittening, very little sence. thats kinda ok theese times?

I’m not arguing with Vayne, I think he makes sense. I used to argue with Vayne, until I stopped myself from responding one day, and actually listened to what he had to say.

I barely know how to respond to this. lol

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

I think you are missing the point of core cooperation rather than competitiveness. It is more ‘social’ to cooperate or, at least, not have to compete to get mats from nodes, or XP and drops from mobs. It fosters a friendlier environment, where you may make a friend, rather than an enemy because no one is irritated that you ‘stole’ his/her kill or material or whatever.

That’s all. Geez!

OT – I enjoy what this game offers, and I don’t feel the need for any of the OP’s proposed ‘endgame’. There are, of course, things I would like added to the game, but I’m sure most would not consider them their definition of ‘endgame’.

I have to agree. I find that this game is more social, because In other games I have played (cough) WoW ( cough)…if someone is fighting something and dieing, and I jump in to help, there have been times I got yelled at.

Here, I can Jump in and help, and people actually thank me.

Nerelith.7360:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

I think you are missing the point of core cooperation rather than competitiveness. It is more ‘social’ to cooperate or, at least, not have to compete to get mats from nodes, or XP and drops from mobs. It fosters a friendlier environment, where you may make a friend, rather than an enemy because no one is irritated that you ‘stole’ his/her kill or material or whatever.

That’s all. Geez!

OT – I enjoy what this game offers, and I don’t feel the need for any of the OP’s proposed ‘endgame’. There are, of course, things I would like added to the game, but I’m sure most would not consider them their definition of ‘endgame’.

I have to agree. I find that this game is more social, because In other games I have played (cough) WoW ( cough)…if someone is fighting something and dieing, and I jump in to help, there have been times I got yelled at.

Here, I can Jump in and help, and people actually thank me.

rly? did you even bother to read my explanation of why comparing this game to WoW doesn’t make this game “social”?

Cooperative, MAYBE (even tho that’s arguable), but by far NOT-social.