Guild Wars 2

I give a thanks to ANET when a thank you is warranted but not when its not.

lol thats not how the gaming community or the internet worsk bro, thanks alone is way too difficult for us, and when anet or any1 else deserves it we simply dont say it

I say thank you all the time, I point out when something is good too But dont let that blind you to the other things, when something needs fixing then I will say, when something needs to be looked, I say it.

Just to reiterate;
thanks Anet for all the good stuff like the new weapons and new skins introduced.

Please fix the imbalance in PvP, specifically stealth and also staff ele.

I thanked them when they started giving us monthlies with no fractal required, I thanked them for dragon coffers, and I thanked them for the free minis we got for purchasing gems.

However, I’m currently apprehensive about the upcoming magic find changes, so yeah.

im 41 years old… Alot of you grew up with Ultima Online etc… It just shocks me how you have the best MMO out there….. hands down – and not only that.. you have the DEV’s actually listening to us…

Don’t give me crap about how when you feel it’s warranted…

Yes they want to hear what we think… But the majority of the norm seems to be how people are kittening….

Go pay for a game I say…. There’s tons out there…

Whatever anyone says.. This is….. The next generation MMO that others will base their game upon… Others are doing it now….

I don’t care if you kitten….

Just give these people a reason to continue to do what they do best….

And that is nothing more than a thank you and your reason why…..
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Am I a fanboi??? I guess am….
Because I haven’t ever seen a company do what they do with a MMO….

And NEITHER HAVE ANY OF YOU!!!

Sheesh people… kitten at me if you want…. But Anet deserves our thanks more than our kittenes for what they have done for the MMO industry….

We have waited how many years for this game to come out?

And don’t give me that crap about how ‘you complain’ so thakittens better….
I understand constructive criticism.

C’mon guys…..

They deserve better than this…. And you know they read this stuff.
For real…. You peops sometimes amaze me. With all the negativity it would be hard pressed for me to stay positive if I worked for Anet. So ungrateful with more negative to say than positive.

flame on

watch this space

This says it best:

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-03-21-entitled-gamers-corrupt-press-and-greedy-publishers

kossman.8206:

you have the DEV’s actually listening to us…

I’d like to direct you to ascended FEEDBACK from players they are listening……

Not to mention a long list of major issues they should fix with little effort like pve balance and stuff.

GW2 is one of the best game i played handled in the worst way i ever seen.
Possibly because the team who developed the game its not the same running it today if i heard correctly.

LordByron.8369:

kossman.8206:

you have the DEV’s actually listening to us…

I’d like to direct you to ascended FEEDBACK from players they are listening……

Not to mention a long list of major issues they should fix with little effort like pve balance and stuff.

GW2 is one of the best game i played handled in the worst way i ever seen.
Possibly because the team who developed the game its not the same running it today if i heard correctly.

Really? I’m not even going to respond to that – cuz you sir, don’t have a clue….

Of course it’s possible, but that doesn’t mean it’s probable.

Thanks.

Happy now?
When that client actually gets properly optimized, I´ll even mean it.

kossman.8206:

LordByron.8369:

kossman.8206:

you have the DEV’s actually listening to us…

I’d like to direct you to ascended FEEDBACK from players they are listening……

Not to mention a long list of major issues they should fix with little effort like pve balance and stuff.

GW2 is one of the best game i played handled in the worst way i ever seen.
Possibly because the team who developed the game its not the same running it today if i heard correctly.

Really? I’m not even going to respond to that – cuz you sir, don’t have a clue….

When you lack arguments…attack the poster….
How cute.

I’m with you Lord Byron. How many people here know the reference?

And I’m older than you by the way.. 30+ years of gaming

Every company makes good and bad decisions. I think the worst decisions come out of putting too much effort into working from feedback instead of making the game what they all know is right.

Better question, is it possible for these weeds to stop sprouting up and trying to cause unnecessary drama for no reason?

KingClash.3186:

Better question, is it possible for these weeds to stop sprouting up and trying to cause unnecessary drama for no reason?

you are on a forum.

Labeling feedback you don t like, drama and just accepting compliments its not much democratic nor useful.

Gather feedback, see the reasons behind things and see if they are acceptable or baseless trolling.

You can even ignore the part “i like/dislike this….” and just read the part “because XYZ”

But just saying if you don t agree with me you are a whiner is just useless and unrespectful.

Forums are developed as a way to help pass information – extending to criticism.

Are you implying that because ArenaNet has done a-lot of things right with the game that we should overlook the bad?
Because that’s condescending in attitude and doesn’t serve to better the game.

Compliments are important to reinforce good, but they don’t hold correctional value if the subject matter isn’t wavering. So while not expressing gratitude may be rude, it doesn’t necessarily go to demote anything (it’s hard, but sometimes saying nothing at all is the biggest compliment of all!).

But for the record:

Thank you ArenaNet for the love and devotion you guys and girls dedicated your time towards. Making and sharing this simply stunning game – which I personally find enjoyable on so many levels!
I can’t even begin to imagine the wealth of time, effort and passion that went into this masterpiece of an interactive experience!

It is because of this commitment that they open themselves to the slings and arrows that come with criticism, because they truly care, even if it doesn’t always seem that way.

LordByron.8369:

kossman.8206:

you have the DEV’s actually listening to us…

I’d like to direct you to ascended FEEDBACK from players they are listening……

Not to mention a long list of major issues they should fix with little effort like pve balance and stuff.

GW2 is one of the best game i played handled in the worst way i ever seen.
Possibly because the team who developed the game its not the same running it today if i heard correctly.

They are listening. Listening doesn’t mean that they have to do everything you want them to. For every person who complains about ascended gear, someone else wants that vertical progression. I’d wager the group of people who really don’t like ascended gear is a whole lot smaller than the group who do.

There are many many improvements made to this game that fans asked for. Eye color wasn’t in the game, fans protested, it’s in. The ability to walk instead of run wasn’t going to be in the game. RPers said something and it’s in the game. The way the dye system changed is actually based on how people didn’t like the old one.

People felt meta events weren’t rewarding enough, so now they guarantee a gold. There’s tons of evidence Anet listens to fans. But no developer can listen to ALL fans, because different groups of fans want different things.

OP, I really enjoy this game. I love the new content. You’re right. No MMO has ever done what Anet is doing. Some people like it, some people don’t.

I’m pretty sure those that like it spend more time in game than on the forums.

LordByron.8369:

KingClash.3186:

Better question, is it possible for these weeds to stop sprouting up and trying to cause unnecessary drama for no reason?

you are on a forum.

Labeling feedback you don t like, drama and just accepting compliments its not much democratic nor useful.

Gather feedback, see the reasons behind things and see if they are acceptable or baseless trolling.

You can even ignore the part “i like/dislike this….” and just read the part “because XYZ”

But just saying if you don t agree with me you are a whiner is just useless and unrespectful.

My post was directed towards the OP >.>

The forums are a place for discussion, and that’s one of the reasons you don’t see many threads thanking the developers.

Constructive criticism hold a lot of value for discussion. Players can discuss what is wrong with the content and what can be done to address it, which can result is a pretty complex discussion.

Giving thanks on the other hand, has trouble holding a discussion. Past everyone agreeing that the content is good and there should be more like it, not much could be added to the thread.

LordByron.8369:

kossman.8206:

you have the DEV’s actually listening to us…

I’d like to direct you to ascended FEEDBACK from players they are listening……

Not to mention a long list of major issues they should fix with little effort like pve balance and stuff.

GW2 is one of the best game i played handled in the worst way i ever seen.
Possibly because the team who developed the game its not the same running it today if i heard correctly.

Things take time. Just read this post by Jonathan Sharp on the subject:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Current-state-of-the-meta/page/9

Its for PvP but It applies to PvE Balance as well.

You’d have a point if update after update we’d get 0 balance changes but just this past update had a whooping total of 75 balance change. Thats in 2 weeks which makes it an average of 5 changes per day.

As Jonathan explains in his post there is no such thing as fixes with little effort. You need to discuss with stake holders to see how a change can affect others, you need to do the change you need to get people involved to do translations if it involves tool tips change, you need to involve people to make gfx change if its applicable, you need to do various types of testing etc… Just consider the implications of something as trivial as say add 1 extra point to bleeding damage that mark of blood does on a necro staff. You need to test what that means in pvp against every class. how that 1 point will translate when combined with traits that effect it.. Hint.. there are 6 traits that effect it. You need to see what that means when combined with food and consumables. You need to see what that means to PvE, will it make encounters trivial? Will it make it possible to solo group events? And thats without going into the merits of the change. if it comes from player feed back, is it really justified? you need to test and establish that.

They’re adding new stuff every two weeks, giving us 75 balancing / fixes every two weeks. Most MMOs I played rarely fix anything thats not critical outside of a patch and time frame for that is measured in months if not years. Honestly, what makes you say this is being handled in the worst possible way? Who is doing a better job? cause for me they’re setting an example on how to run an MMO!

Vayne.8563:

OP, I really enjoy this game. I love the new content. You’re right. No MMO has ever done what Anet is doing. Some people like it, some people don’t.

I’m pretty sure those that like it spend more time in game than on the forums.

Enumerate just what GW2 has done, that hasn’t been done before. There isn’t much.

Again Vayne, I question your overall knowledge of the genre.

GW1 is unique. GW2 is everymmo stuffed into a very artistic package.

Interesting statement. Let me see now, John Smedley, CEO of SOE, said “people who like the new game are playing it, and not on the forums” … when NGE lost a ton of subcriptions to SWG and forced them to refund the cost of an expansion to anyone that asked for it. That statement has been made too much, and means nothing.

GW2 is a good game. Or, not so good, depending on your tastes. It is not the be-all, end-all of gaming.

As far as thanking them? They provide a service I paid for. So does my garbage company, my power company, my IP provider, etc. I don’t “thank” them unless they address an issue for me. I’ll thank ANET customer service if they do the same.

Vayne.8563:

LordByron.8369:

kossman.8206:

you have the DEV’s actually listening to us…

I’d like to direct you to ascended FEEDBACK from players they are listening……

Not to mention a long list of major issues they should fix with little effort like pve balance and stuff.

GW2 is one of the best game i played handled in the worst way i ever seen.
Possibly because the team who developed the game its not the same running it today if i heard correctly.

They are listening. Listening doesn’t mean that they have to do everything you want them to. For every person who complains about ascended gear, someone else wants that vertical progression. I’d wager the group of people who really don’t like ascended gear is a whole lot smaller than the group who do.

There are many many improvements made to this game that fans asked for. Eye color wasn’t in the game, fans protested, it’s in. The ability to walk instead of run wasn’t going to be in the game. RPers said something and it’s in the game. The way the dye system changed is actually based on how people didn’t like the old one.

People felt meta events weren’t rewarding enough, so now they guarantee a gold. There’s tons of evidence Anet listens to fans. But no developer can listen to ALL fans, because different groups of fans want different things.

You forgot the big one FoV . They were actually against it, many times they came out explaining how it would put a huge strain on them to change it from an artistic point of view. Yet even if they were against it because players really wanted it they ended up doing the change.

And they listened from day one… how many people begged them to allow crafting using materials from the bank directly… that was in on the first update! They even changed their whole approach to the game based on feedback.. people wanted permanent content instead of temporary stuff, they committed to giving a greater degree of permanent stuff.

Seriously if there is one thing Anet cant be accused of is not listening. Like Vayne said if they didnt do the one thing you asked of them it doesnt mean they dont listen it means they didnt agree with it and there wasnt enough backing for what you asked that made scenes they do it even if they disagreed with it (like say FOV) or maybe its still in the pipeline perhaps they deemed it low priority and didnt get to it yet.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Vayne.8563:

OP, I really enjoy this game. I love the new content. You’re right. No MMO has ever done what Anet is doing. Some people like it, some people don’t.

I’m pretty sure those that like it spend more time in game than on the forums.

Enumerate just what GW2 has done, that hasn’t been done before. There isn’t much.

Again Vayne, I question your overall knowledge of the genre.

GW1 is unique. GW2 is everymmo stuffed into a very artistic package.

Interesting statement. Let me see now, John Smedley, CEO of SOE, said “people who like the new game are playing it, and not on the forums” … when NGE lost a ton of subcriptions to SWG and forced them to refund the cost of an expansion to anyone that asked for it. That statement has been made too much, and means nothing.

GW2 is a good game. Or, not so good, depending on your tastes. It is not the be-all, end-all of gaming.

As far as thanking them? They provide a service I paid for. So does my garbage company, my power company, my IP provider, etc. I don’t “thank” them unless they address an issue for me. I’ll thank ANET customer service if they do the same.

I can name a lot of things Gw2 has done that other games have no.

A Living breathing world that actually changes in meaningful ways. No other MMO that I am aware of has questing in which NPCs involved in those quests act out the story they’re part off. Take the Harathi Hinterlands as a prime example of this. together with the NPCs involved you can literally push the centaurs out and take control of the entire map. Many outpost can literally change hands and you actual see it happen, you’re part of it. That content is like a major part of the game at least 80% of it so that alone is a lot. but there is more.

Freedom of choice. if you got a goal. Legendary, Exotic Armor , Exotic weapon etc.. you’re free to go about it as you wish. You can engage in events, craft, do dungeons, engage in PvP, Explore, Level up Alts. do dailies whatever… you can then use whatever you earn from any of those activities and use it to you get your chosen reward. Most MMOs the prestige things like a legendary weapon can only be gotten by repeating high level raids that to get to you need to finish other raids forcing you to repeat the same content essentially.

Meaningful Exploration, thats also missing from most MMOs… I mean even little things like coming across a well hidden quagen who’s like surprised to see and wonders how you found his secret spot!

New content to play every 2 weeks

A ton of Mini games all the time

the Living story, I think Acheron’s call might have had this to be fully honest (never played it myself) but anyhow its still extremely rare to have a progressive story that changes things in its wake and evolves.

A combat system that allows you to react to the situation without artificially limiting you a specific role. I love the fact you can properly address a situation. I am safe right now and my team is safe so I will focus on damaging the enemy. My team has aggro but I am safe, I will focus on supporting them. a team member is about to die so I will focus on interrupting his attacker to allow them to escape. I am in trouble so I will now act to ensure my survival etc… etc.. In most other MMOs you have a specific role and no matter what situation you’re in that all you can do. You’re a dps and you team mate is in peril? too bad you cant support them you can only dps.

I could go on but there is a 5k character limit.

By all means, thank anyone you’re thankful to. It’s a civilized and kind thing to do.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Vayne.8563:

OP, I really enjoy this game. I love the new content. You’re right. No MMO has ever done what Anet is doing. Some people like it, some people don’t.

I’m pretty sure those that like it spend more time in game than on the forums.

Enumerate just what GW2 has done, that hasn’t been done before. There isn’t much.

Again Vayne, I question your overall knowledge of the genre.

GW1 is unique. GW2 is everymmo stuffed into a very artistic package.

Interesting statement. Let me see now, John Smedley, CEO of SOE, said “people who like the new game are playing it, and not on the forums” … when NGE lost a ton of subcriptions to SWG and forced them to refund the cost of an expansion to anyone that asked for it. That statement has been made too much, and means nothing.

GW2 is a good game. Or, not so good, depending on your tastes. It is not the be-all, end-all of gaming.

As far as thanking them? They provide a service I paid for. So does my garbage company, my power company, my IP provider, etc. I don’t “thank” them unless they address an issue for me. I’ll thank ANET customer service if they do the same.

Aside from the fact that no other MMO has eschewed traditional question for dynamic events (Warhammer and Rift, which have dynamic events, also had traditional quests), Guild Wars 2 also did away with dedicated healers and tanks.

More importantly, it’s the combination of factors that make Guild Wars 2 what it is. I don’t think you know as much about the genre as you think you do.

Do you know, Shakespeare didn’t invent any words…but how he combined the words he did know made plays that were immortal. It’s the same thing with Guild Wars 2.

The combination of elements brought together in Guild Wars 2 creates a completely cooperative PvE experience seen in NO OTHER MMO. Not one.

It’s not just that there’s no mob tagging. It’s that everyone has their own nodes to mine. It’s that no one has to roll for loot. It’s that no one can steal your kill. It’s that everyone gets rewarded for participating in kills and events. It’s that you don’t need to take a quest to get credit for a quest. It’s that you can go into any zone and get down-leveled, so that you don’t one-shot everything, ruining the experience for lower level characters. It’s the downed state, adding drama to PvE battles. It’s waypoints for travel to get to places fast. It’s the ability to remotely deposit collectibles and list things on the marketplace. It’s a global economy instead of a server based economy. It’s guesting. It’s overflow servers, instead of waiting in a queue to play. It’s being able to buy gems with gold. It’s content updates every two weeks. It’s the level to which they’ve taken jumping puzzles. But most of all it’s the focus on the open world instead of dungeons and raids.

Surely some of these things have been used elsewhere either in or out of the MMO genre, but the combination of all of them completely changes the way the game is played. And if you don’t get that, you’re missing the point.

The combination of factors in Guild Wars 2 is seen nowhere else and makes this, for many of us, a significantly different experience from other MMOs.

I agree thank them all you like, its respectful.

I would thank them too..
If they balanced the classes in all aspects of the game, made all classes useful in team orientated aspects, added non temporary content we could play and use for years to come, lowered the focus of RNG through out the game, overhauled the reward system, made open world useful again and gave PvE as much focus as they do PvP in SOTG..

@Galen Grey

Fine, Ill bite.

Dynamic “Events”. SWG. Galactic Civil War, for years, players, and players only, controlled who owned what, access to cities, planetary control, what NPCs spawned where.. and it never reset. Players had to change things, and they stayed changed till other players undid it. Right until the end. And each server was different. Mine was actually won by the Empire.. one of the few. SWG was also dynamic in that originally, nearly all pvp was centered upon Player created fortresses. You popped a base in rebel territory, and it was there until they took it from you. I base I placed lasted 2 years. (pre NGE)

Everquest 2. World Events. Players permantly changed the game. We did events to add a playble race, add griffen stations, add wizard portals, add guild halls,add travel to other continents, and the world changed permanently. Test Server did not have Froglok race for many years, they did not have the population to do the event to unlock the race.

Dynamic, to me, is not a repeatable kill ten rats event that resets on a timer, sorry.

Freedom of Choice. Again, SWG pre NGE. No professions, only skills. Most players were combinations of 3 or more “professions”. There was no trinity either. No combat roles. You could spec in so many different ways. Crafting..totally custom. You set the specs on what you produced. Or, the customer did. There were no “questlines” or paths, you decided. Your “personal” story was what YOU chose to do.

Meaningful exploration? Go to point A and get a checkbox ticked? Meaningful exploration is up to the explorer. There are easter eggs in every game, map uncovering, rewards. I will grant that ANET did do the checkoff style with chest rewards. And again, going back to SWG.. in 2003 they had exploration that was not a point marked on a map. You found them by accident, and they led to titles. (later they did appease the wowcrowd by adding markers for them)

Weapons? In SWG the best weapons possible were made by players. Period. Some comps were rare drops, but if you wanted the best, you NEVER had to enter any dungeon. In fact, there were very few of those.

Vanguard.. choice. I can craft them, I can instance them. Same with EQ2, my chars are full fabled with either crafted, or token armor I earned soloing.

Living story.. again, Everquests, SWG. Pretty living when players band together, as a server, to permanently change that server.

Minigames. pretty common. Most holidays are full of them. In Vanguard, the Diplomacy minigame is a full fledge profession of its own, you level in it, and you can leverage buffs that effect entire towns and persist beyond them.

Temp content every 2 weeks. Yup.. thats new. yet to be seen how it will play out.

Same with your commentary re combat. I don’t see what you see here, and I think it is player perception. I do not see the flexibility here to do what you listed. Ill give you that one, but I dont buy it as new.. since I played PRE NGE swg with no classes or “roles” at all.

But this wall of text means nothing. Really. You like GW2 or you don’t. I just get a bit tired of the claims of “no game ever before”. That is just flat out wrong and is claimed far too much, Not by ANET, but by fans.

Love the game. Don’t put it on an altar and worship it.

Vayne. You didnt even play Everquest, Everquest2, UO, SWG,by your own admission. You missed the entire Pre Wow MMO experience. I will repeat, your knowledge of the genre is not as vast as you would have some believe.

And not having played Pre NGE SWG, you don’t know how innovative that was, and how many things done there are only now coming back. Do you even know who Rafe Koster is? And mind you.. I said innovative.. not the “greatest game evah” , it was full of holes. But.. to address your first claim, there were no roles, no classes, no “dedicated” anything. There was no quest path.. only minor side quests that added a bit of flavor. Total sandbox.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Vayne. You didnt even play Everquest, Everquest2, UO, SWG,by your own admission. You missed the entire Pre Wow MMO experience. I will repeat, your knowledge of the genre is not as vast as you would have some believe. I’ve typed enough.

You’ve typed more than enough. I didn’t play those games…I’ve sold them, watched them, researched them. I never visited 19th century Europe, but I sure as hell sold a story about it.

In fact, people who have played games pre-WoW are actually LESS knowledgable about the genre, because they have to deal with the fact that this is a completely different genre today than it was then. Completely 100% different. Times have changed, the playerbase has changed, the thrust of the genre has changed.

It’s like saying no one who hasn’t read Shakespeare can edit a modern novel. They have nothing to do with each other.

Stuff that’s happened in the last eight years in an industry that changes rapidly is far more important than anything any of the older games did.

Those who live in the past don’t necessarily know more than those that live in the present.

@OP

I understand what you mean. At the same time Im reminding you that GW2 isnt perfect, we live in a total new era than UO years where people now expect more. I for instance dont understand why there arnt multi-trait specs that you can save for different situation.
Without the constant negativity or feedback, devs wont always be on their toes. And as you said, you’re 41 years old, the youngsters might not be into what old grams prefer. That is the beauty of it, we all want different things, but it is hard to fulfill every heart. GW2 is indeed the better MMORPG out there, but keeping it like that is a constant adventure in todays market.

Vayne.8563:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Vayne. You didnt even play Everquest, Everquest2, UO, SWG,by your own admission. You missed the entire Pre Wow MMO experience. I will repeat, your knowledge of the genre is not as vast as you would have some believe. I’ve typed enough.

You’ve typed more than enough. I didn’t play those games…I’ve sold them, watched them, researched them. I never visited 19th century Europe, but I sure as hell sold a story about it.

In fact, people who have played games pre-WoW are actually LESS knowledgable about the genre, because they have to deal with the fact that this is a completely different genre today than it was then. Completely 100% different. Times have changed, the playerbase has changed, the thrust of the genre has changed.

It’s like saying no one who hasn’t read Shakespeare can edit a modern novel. They have nothing to do with each other.

Stuff that’s happened in the last eight years in an industry that changes rapidly is far more important than anything any of the older games did.

Those who live in the past don’t necessarily know more than those that live in the present.

Ok, its amusing now. You do know that there are MMOs older than 8 years still being played? Still part of the “genre”? And new games, developed by people who should know the new metrics (Im looking at you, Bioware) that have less people playing them than some of the dinosaur games?

But.. by your logic, I’ve played more MMOs, longer, and so, know less. Okie Dokey.

Again, People can love GW2 will all their heart without claiming all that is claimed.

Vayne.8563:

Those who live in the past don’t necessarily know more than those that live in the present.

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

Vayne.8563:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Vayne. You didnt even play Everquest, Everquest2, UO, SWG,by your own admission. You missed the entire Pre Wow MMO experience. I will repeat, your knowledge of the genre is not as vast as you would have some believe. I’ve typed enough.

You’ve typed more than enough. I didn’t play those games…I’ve sold them, watched them, researched them. I never visited 19th century Europe, but I sure as hell sold a story about it.

In fact, people who have played games pre-WoW are actually LESS knowledgable about the genre, because they have to deal with the fact that this is a completely different genre today than it was then. Completely 100% different. Times have changed, the playerbase has changed, the thrust of the genre has changed.

It’s like saying no one who hasn’t read Shakespeare can edit a modern novel. They have nothing to do with each other.

Stuff that’s happened in the last eight years in an industry that changes rapidly is far more important than anything any of the older games did.

Those who live in the past don’t necessarily know more than those that live in the present.

Once again, I have to agree with Vayne on this one. If innovation was purely born out of experience, it would be our senior citizens that companies would want to hire so they can invent new things for us. Companies hire young people for a reason. You kind of remind me of Grandpa Simpson Teofa.

Tachenon.5270:

Vayne.8563:

Those who live in the past don’t necessarily know more than those that live in the present.

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

Great quote, but those who remember the past often STILL repeat it. Trite sayings do not truth make.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Vayne.8563:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Vayne. You didnt even play Everquest, Everquest2, UO, SWG,by your own admission. You missed the entire Pre Wow MMO experience. I will repeat, your knowledge of the genre is not as vast as you would have some believe. I’ve typed enough.

You’ve typed more than enough. I didn’t play those games…I’ve sold them, watched them, researched them. I never visited 19th century Europe, but I sure as hell sold a story about it.

In fact, people who have played games pre-WoW are actually LESS knowledgable about the genre, because they have to deal with the fact that this is a completely different genre today than it was then. Completely 100% different. Times have changed, the playerbase has changed, the thrust of the genre has changed.

It’s like saying no one who hasn’t read Shakespeare can edit a modern novel. They have nothing to do with each other.

Stuff that’s happened in the last eight years in an industry that changes rapidly is far more important than anything any of the older games did.

Those who live in the past don’t necessarily know more than those that live in the present.

Ok, its amusing now. You do know that there are MMOs older than 8 years still being played? Still part of the “genre”? And new games, developed by people who should know the new metrics (Im looking at you, Bioware) that have less people playing them than some of the dinosaur games?

But.. by your logic, I’ve played more MMOs, longer, and so, know less. Okie Dokey.

Again, People can love GW2 will all their heart without claiming all that is claimed.

Of course I know those games are still being played. If you added up all the people who play the oldest games, all up, you’d still have a very tiny percentage of gamers. I’m still not sure what relevance this has.

There are people who still listen to the Andrew Sisters, but last I heard, there aren’t a lot of people bringing them up when talking about modern music.

As for Bioware getting it wrong, that doesn’t prove anything. They started with a flawed premise. They took the WoW formula and tried to append a story to it. It was always doomed to failure, which is why I didn’t buy it.

Saying it failed proves what exactly?

Edit: It’s sort of like old scientists, who become attached to old data and old theories. Sure they know a lot, but in the end, it’s very often those older scientist who prevent progress, rather than further it.

Bye Vayne. Not talking in circles with you. I’ll just go get my geritol, plug in some Matlock reruns, redye my hair blue and listen to Cab Calloway on my Victrola. After that, Ill play some Pong or Checkers. Im too old to comment on vidya games I reckon.

Torpian.9142:

Vayne.8563:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Vayne. You didnt even play Everquest, Everquest2, UO, SWG,by your own admission. You missed the entire Pre Wow MMO experience. I will repeat, your knowledge of the genre is not as vast as you would have some believe. I’ve typed enough.

You’ve typed more than enough. I didn’t play those games…I’ve sold them, watched them, researched them. I never visited 19th century Europe, but I sure as hell sold a story about it.

In fact, people who have played games pre-WoW are actually LESS knowledgable about the genre, because they have to deal with the fact that this is a completely different genre today than it was then. Completely 100% different. Times have changed, the playerbase has changed, the thrust of the genre has changed.

It’s like saying no one who hasn’t read Shakespeare can edit a modern novel. They have nothing to do with each other.

Stuff that’s happened in the last eight years in an industry that changes rapidly is far more important than anything any of the older games did.

Those who live in the past don’t necessarily know more than those that live in the present.

Once again, I have to agree with Vayne on this one. If innovation was purely born out of experience, it would be our senior citizens that companies would want to hire so they can invent new things for us. Companies hire young people for a reason. You kind of remind me of Grandpa Simpson Teofa.

Hate to break it to you, but you can buy a new car today, superior in every way to one made 100 years ago, and still find… the manufacturer didn’t invent the wheel, the internal combustion engine, the radio, etc etc, and they know enough not to claim that they did.

And yeah, the “Older” people who run companies do hire those “Younger” ones.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Bye Vayne. Not talking in circles with you. I’ll just go get my geritol, plug in some Matlock reruns, redye my hair blue and listen to Cab Calloway on my Victrola. After that, Ill play some Pong or Checkers. Im too old to comment on vidya games I reckon.

I’m probably as old as you…I just didn’t get into the early MMOs because I never had time for them while I was working. I’m retired now, and I have more time to play. I know I’d have loved EQ if I’d had the time to invest into it, but I also knew it would have probably hurt other real life interests I had at the time.

It’s not that you’re too old, but if you really think UO is significant when discussing today’s MMOs, I don’t really know what to tell you. It’s an old game, that would never survive today. It was too free-form. Too niche. It didn’t lead people around by the nose enough.

And you know, I really don’t want to be led around by the nose. I find it frustrating. But I acknowledge that today’s gamers aren’t going to devote to one game and stay there. It’s not happening and I think Anet knows that.

They want to play 20 games…30 games. So they won’t stay with one game long enough to think about where to go or what to do. It’s much easier to run to Dulfy or the wiki and run through content.

It’s a different world. Trying to make an intelligent game that doesn’t lead you around by the nose today, with the budgetary requirements of today’s games, would be really really hard. The risk involved almost guarantees it would have to be an independent game.

Vayne.8563:

As for Bioware getting it wrong, that doesn’t prove anything. They started with a flawed premise. They took the WoW formula and tried to append a story to it. It was always doomed to failure, which is why I didn’t buy it.

Saying it failed proves what exactly?

That modern game developers, being possessed of vast quantities of talent and creativity, being able to witness the errors and blunders and lapses of judgment made by their predecessors, and having access to all manner of pertinent post-launch information that players never get to see, are infallible. Not.

We are witnessing new and innovative ways for game developers (and their overlords) to fail right here, right now. Maybe some future game developer in the audience will take heed, and when their turn comes, they’ll remember…

Tachenon.5270:

Vayne.8563:

As for Bioware getting it wrong, that doesn’t prove anything. They started with a flawed premise. They took the WoW formula and tried to append a story to it. It was always doomed to failure, which is why I didn’t buy it.

Saying it failed proves what exactly?

That modern game developers, being possessed of vast quantities of talent and creativity, being able to witness the errors and blunders and lapses of judgment made by their predecessors, and having access to all manner of pertinent post-launch information that players never get to see, are infallible. Not.

We are witnessing new and innovative ways for game developers (and their overlords) to fail right here, right now. Maybe some future game developer in the audience will take heed, and when their turn comes, they’ll remember…

I don’t believe this for a second. Most people today don’t think deeply about their gaming experience.

When gaming was more niche, a very small percentage of very intelligent people were gamers, and those games reflected that. But the larger you cast your net the more you’re going to have to dumb things down. That’s why a game like Eve Online has finally grown to half a million subscribers, the highest they’ve ever had, where as WoW has 8.3 million.

It’s a numbers game. Expectations have changed. People don’t want to read…they want voice. Some one has to pay for those voice actors. They want big servers with big battles. It all costs money. They want huge worlds, with tons of content, with everything up front.

That’s what the playerbase demands of MMOs. No MMO will ever succeed in the way WoW did, because the expectation is so much higher. Maybe ESO, because it will be available on console will do well. That will add a whole lot of people to the mix, but just look at what’s going on in the gaming world.

PC sales are well down. Even laptop sales are down. Consoles are up. That should tell you something about the nature of gamers right there.

I played older RPGs like the old old Ultima games. Those games would never make it today. They’re just too niche. No one could afford to produce them.

Vayne.8563:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Bye Vayne. Not talking in circles with you. I’ll just go get my geritol, plug in some Matlock reruns, redye my hair blue and listen to Cab Calloway on my Victrola. After that, Ill play some Pong or Checkers. Im too old to comment on vidya games I reckon.

I’m probably as old as you…I just didn’t get into the early MMOs because I never had time for them while I was working. I’m retired now, and I have more time to play. I know I’d have loved EQ if I’d had the time to invest into it, but I also knew it would have probably hurt other real life interests I had at the time.

It’s not that you’re too old, but if you really think UO is significant when discussing today’s MMOs, I don’t really know what to tell you. It’s an old game, that would never survive today. It was too free-form. Too niche. It didn’t lead people around by the nose enough.

And you know, I really don’t want to be led around by the nose. I find it frustrating. But I acknowledge that today’s gamers aren’t going to devote to one game and stay there. It’s not happening and I think Anet knows that.

They want to play 20 games…30 games. So they won’t stay with one game long enough to think about where to go or what to do. It’s much easier to run to Dulfy or the wiki and run through content.

It’s a different world. Trying to make an intelligent game that doesn’t lead you around by the nose today, with the budgetary requirements of today’s games, would be really really hard. The risk involved almost guarantees it would have to be an independent game.

You know, I agree with much of this, to my shock. UO is important simply because UO proved it could be done. WoW took UO and EQ and dumbed them, to the market you describe. That LCD process continues to the detriment, IMO, of all MMOs.

I think they are forgetting that the generations that played pong, played space invaders, bought atari consoles and shoved coins into Video games are getting to that retirement age. I don’t want to play bingo, do sing a longs with the piano, or any of that stuff considered to be “my age”. I want to play MMOs, be thoughtfully challenged, have a complex persistent world. I guess perhaps, we aren’t the generation that they want, although we are the one that paved the way. I suppose thats why some cling to the older games, Everquest, etc, just not happy with the spoon feeding.

I will see what happens to EverquestNext. They claim to be returning to their Everquest roots, with a lot of new bells and whistles. Be interesting to see how that works for them.

I like ANET, I really do. I can live with the mechanics of the game, live without particle sliders, extensive graphics customization, a lot of things I took for granted in older games. But.. I don’t know how long I can deal with the new content. To me, it does not live up to their own standards they have set in the past. It seems far too shallow, to me.

Our main disagreement is I don’t see real, indepth, quality innovation, from any producer. I do see improvements, adaptations, quality changes, ease of movement, etc. I see Innovation in how “kill ten rats” is presented, but it remains “kill ten rats” and that is where I am not really seeing huge strides from UO -WOW- today. For me, the “kill ten rats” is the repetition.. over and over and over.. not ten rats in a quest but more oh god.. the wolfmaster… again.. and he has become fodder in a “kill 10 rats” achievement daily.. quest.

Its like the new stuff. Wow, new stuff, fun stuff, different stuff. Now.. just do it another 35 times. or more. That just smacks it back to rat grinding for me.

We will always disagree, but I do feel much the same as you in the above quote.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

@Galen Grey
snip…

Part 1…

Dynamic “events” in SWG… Thats a different thing then what I am talking about. Its not even in the same play style you’re talking PvP I am talking PvE. Dont get me wrong I am not saying SWG didnt have a living world, all sandbox do in a way its part of what makes them a sandbox but its all about PvP and how players interact with each other. Not everyone is into PvP. Some player prefer to engage in PvE. Before Gw2 came about it was impossible to have a living PvE world because no MMO managed to get a sense of a living world through NPCs as they were all just static, standing there, maybe wonder a bit but nothing else… GW2 was the first to imbued a sense of life in NPC where they are seemingly doing stuff.

“Everquest 2. World Events.” Again you’re missing what I am actually talking about I think. Its not about adding things to the world, every single MMO does that, granted not all might make events to do it but anyhow not what I mean. What I am saying is an on going narrative that builds on what comes before. For example. Lost shores introduced the consortium and southsun. That was setting the stage. The molten alliance attacked villages which caused refugees to flee the fighting. The consortium needed a workforce to accelerate their plans for southsun so they seized the opportunity to use refugees for that. But in order to do that they cheated the refugees which resulted into a situation where refugees dont want to live there anymore. that strife resulted in the refugees moving out of southsun and are currently rebuilding cragstead instead, one of the villages ravaged by the molten alliance. Talking to NPCs there suggests thats not the end of the story either. These are not simply world events to explain why we get a new dungeon or a new zone. Dont know if EQ2 world events did that or not, I did play that game but never got to end game and never took part in a world event except for holidays. But what you describe seems more disjointed than what we got.

“Dynamic, to me, is not a repeatable kill ten rats event that resets on a timer, sorry.”
Fine fair enough but what dynamic means at least according to google is “Characterized by constant change, activity, or progress” timer or not doesnt get into it. Thats just a mechanic to simulate the change. Also I am sorry but you’re mistaken none of the event reset. They’re just circular or have opposing events to set them straight so to speak. For example a circular event has an NPC who sells weapons. After a while he runs out of inventory and there for needs to build more, for which he needs ore so he runs to the mine asks for help to gather as much ore as possible, there are events related to that after he gathers the ore he then goes back, creates the weapons and starts selling them. The cycle eventually repeats but doesn’t reset.
example of events that dont cycle. Bandits attack a farm and take it over. That farm will remain taken over until liberated. If its liberated the bandits will attempt to take it again. Again none of the events reset, there is no such thing as centaurs take over this down and after a set timer they all disappear and humans take the town again which is what you’d expect if events did indeed reset.

Age is not a determining factor of good/fun design.

A grasp of what constitutes fun and the knowledge of limitations (e.g. programming, math, etc), combined with meticulous thought make up the sole requirements for good game design.

And all this talk about Ultima Online I feel the need to advertise:

https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/

A new game in development by the creator and some co-developers of the Ultima series, with accepting and ongoing contributions from the community.

Because everyone’s entitled to immediately get every single achievement and new item within the first hour of patch release. If that doesn’t happen they don’t give thanks.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

@Galen Grey
snip…

Part 2

“Freedom of Choice. Again, SWG pre NGE. No professions, only skills. " I dont know about this, never played SWG as I said before. But a little searching disagrees with what you’re saying. according to this:
http://swg.wikia.com/wiki/Professions_
There were not only professions that had distinct skills Commando has no access to healing skill trees which medic does. But within each class there are also specializations.

Example medic can become a doctor or a jedi can become a force defender which is actually described as “Force Defenders are tanks among Jedi”. Are you sure a commando could heal friends and a medic could interrupt enemy attacks for example?

“Meaningful exploration? Go to point A and get a checkbox ticked? " You didnt engage in exploration in Gw2 if you think its just going to point A and ticking checkboxes I guess. There are hidden events, hidden areas, even unique rewards to be had through exploration. None of these are marked on the map or in the game world in any way.
In Gw2 there events that will never EVER trigger unless you do go to this location in the middle of no where and do something specific or have a conversation with an NPC thats unmarked.

“Weapons? In SWG the best weapons possible were made by players. .. but if you wanted the best, you NEVER had to enter any dungeon. " how is that getting weapons any way you want? you just said if you want the best weapons you either had to craft it or get it from another player. That means if you’re a player who wants to just do dungeons/quest/pvp, tough luck you cant get the best weapons that way. My point was not that crafting provides the best weapon, my point was whatever you enjoy doing can get you want you want.

“Living story” already replied to this above.

“Minigames. pretty common. Most holidays are full of them.” sure and how many holidays are there in these games? Eq2 has what 8? and from year to year they remain mostly the same except for a couple of added quests. gw2 every mini game so far has been completely unique and we get 3 new ones every 2 weeks more or less. Thats not the same as experiencing more or less the same frostfell since 2006 and most importantly what i meant was not that gw2 created mini games, obviously they didnt invent them. Its how they’re being used by gw2. No MMO that I am aware of offers mini games regularly like gw2 does to keep the game fresh. What I mean they “invented” is that new game content doesnt need to be serious dungeons or more quest lines, it could also be fun activities. In other MMOs the only fun activities you’d get is a periodic holiday, you have that too in Gw2 but the mini games are a different.

“since I played PRE NGE swg with no classes or “roles” at all." Like I said cant really comment on this but that link above suggests there is a lot less flexibility combat wise.

“Love the game. Don’t put it on an altar and worship it.” No one is putting it on a pedestal but I do think did redefine stuff and they did introduce new things. Its not just simply about terms, Rift has dynamic events sure no one denies that but they’re not the same thing as what Gw2 did. In rift Dynamic Events are more about content that is not on demand and doesnt always happen in the same point. In gw2 dynamic events are more then that imho. They’re life where NPCs get to go about tasks. They’re detail where as if a quest requires transport, that doesnt just appear out of tin air, an NPC actually sends a pigeon to call said transport. They give context to events. The village isnt always occupied and freeing it just means killing a few mobs that respawn by the time the quest is done, if I free the village it really will be free with no mobs in it at all and it will remain free as long as the attacks by said mobs will be repelled.

Same thing with mini games. Sure EQ2 crafting has a mini game, Vanguard diplomacy has a card game that you could call a mini game, though for me its more of a game mechanic. But thats nothing like Sanctum sprint or Dragon bash etc… The crafting mini game, the Diplomacy mini game, these were game mechanics designed for the long term to spice up what would other wise be more boring systems. They’re great dont get me wrong but they’re not meant as content to be consumed just for the fun of it like dragon bash. No one crafted something in Eq2 specifically because they wanted to play the crafting mini game and likewise no one engaged in diplomacy simply because they wanted to play the card game with an NPC! But most people who played dragon bash did so because they enjoyed the mini game itself. This is content meant to spice up the game and while other games just put in more dungeons and quests for that but never fun mini games. Its not that Gw2 invented mini games, cause you’re right they didnt. But they were the first to use them as content in this way.

Tachenon.5270:

Vayne.8563:

Those who live in the past don’t necessarily know more than those that live in the present.

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

well technically he’s saying that past mmos no longer work today. be it right or wrong i dont know but certainly i dont think there is any risk of him repeating it

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Torpian.9142:

Vayne.8563:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Vayne. You didnt even play Everquest, Everquest2, UO, SWG,by your own admission. You missed the entire Pre Wow MMO experience. I will repeat, your knowledge of the genre is not as vast as you would have some believe. I’ve typed enough.

You’ve typed more than enough. I didn’t play those games…I’ve sold them, watched them, researched them. I never visited 19th century Europe, but I sure as hell sold a story about it.

In fact, people who have played games pre-WoW are actually LESS knowledgable about the genre, because they have to deal with the fact that this is a completely different genre today than it was then. Completely 100% different. Times have changed, the playerbase has changed, the thrust of the genre has changed.

It’s like saying no one who hasn’t read Shakespeare can edit a modern novel. They have nothing to do with each other.

Stuff that’s happened in the last eight years in an industry that changes rapidly is far more important than anything any of the older games did.

Those who live in the past don’t necessarily know more than those that live in the present.

Once again, I have to agree with Vayne on this one. If innovation was purely born out of experience, it would be our senior citizens that companies would want to hire so they can invent new things for us. Companies hire young people for a reason. You kind of remind me of Grandpa Simpson Teofa.

Hate to break it to you, but you can buy a new car today, superior in every way to one made 100 years ago, and still find… the manufacturer didn’t invent the wheel, the internal combustion engine, the radio, etc etc, and they know enough not to claim that they did.

And yeah, the “Older” people who run companies do hire those “Younger” ones.

I think this actually a perfect example of what I was trying to say.

Take a car from 100 years ago and one from today.

you’re saying the new car didnt invent the wheel and you’re right but they did invent ABS, new breaking system and tubeless wheels. Simply speaking the new wheel is a lot more then it was 100 years ago. Saying the new manufacturer did nothing new to the wheel just cause a wheel existed 100 years ago isnt really accurate dont you think?

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

snip…

Thing is, in my opinion is what guild wars 2 did is make a game that has something for everyone. That is its success and that is its failing at the same time. Its a failing because you’re right it does give the idea thakittens shallow. When I am facing a mob with my necro I can play it smart, fear it to get it to move away from me, chill it to slow it down, use Spectral Walk and start moving away, damage it till it gets near me and then teleport back to where I had cast Spectral Walk first chill it again and it would be dead without me getting a single hit on myself. Or I could attack it till it died.

The idea I would imagine is if you’re casual and inexperienced doing basic stuff like regular attacks till it dies works. If you’re experienced there are plenty of tactics and strategies you can use in any given situation so you can use your mind if you so wish to. The problem is even hardcore players like the path least resistance. Why worry about strategy when everything works right? and then the game seems shallow. But its not this is one of the most complex combat systems I have ever seen really but its hard to appreciate it because there is no content that you will fail unless you excel at maximizing what the combat system can do.