Guild Wars 2

BlueZone.4236:

Vayne.8563:

NewTrain.7549:

Vayne.8563:

People aren’t all going for their pitchforks anymore, only a few really disenfranchised people are still moaning.

Yeah, that real slight 48%. How very minor.

Do you understand trend. 80 to 50% in what, two days. lol

We’ll see who’s right in two weeks time. I should also point out, I posted that poll to reddit before I posted on the forum and the poll was far far more equal.

Then the forum people came in, voted when I posted it here and downvoted the post, so less and less reddit people would end up seeing it.

Not that I expected anything less.

The fact is, off the forum, on reddit, before the forum voted, the poll was a whole lot different.

That tells me something too. Anyway that’s my last post for today. G’night.

A smaller sample size (ie. only reddit), with a larger margin of error, tickles Vayne’s confirmation bias, it’s balanced.
When the sample size gets larger, by pooling the official forum, and it does not agree with Vayne’s view point, there’s a tin foil hat conspiracy going on.
If it tips ever back in his favor, he’ll be all ‘I told you so’.

It’s always a win-win situation for Vayne. I guess he’s gone back to polish the pedestal for a while.

Forums will never ever be representative of the playerbase, simply from point they are overwhemingly biased to one certain type of player which is only a tiny part of playerbase AND vastly different than rest of the playerbase.

Take a look at this thread: Dungeon Patch Discussion 1/28

Wow look at all of those people upset! If only the designers listened to them! What a blunder! The thread is full of people complaining about them removing “res-rushing” in dungeons.

If this game was designed by the community, this garbage would still be in the game, where players throw themselves at bosses over and over again until it dies. Sometimes designers have to do what they think is right, even if many players disagree with it. If it pans out: Great. If it doesn’t: Learn from your mistake, and try something different. (Or hire a new designer)

The fallacy you are making is you think a popular decision is the correct decision. Most of the time it isn’t.

MikaHR.1978:

phys.7689:

MikaHR.1978:

phys.7689:

Nokaru.7831:

phys.7689:

But would you prefer a game designed such that it makes 80% of the people who play it disatisfied?

democracy may not be perfect, but leadership that enflames 80% of the people usually leads to revolution.

The best argument against large-scale democracy is just watching 2 minutes of Twitch Plays Pokemon.

If this game was designed democratically, we’d never see things like Liadri or the revamp to Tequatl and the Crown Pavilion.

If you want to change the game, then enter the gaming industry and become a designer. This might come as a shock to you, but It takes more than just having an opinion and clicking on a poll to actually make a good game.

And you still miss the point. Saying people dont know what they want/what is good is fine and dandy, i agree to an extent, but thinking that any small group of people will automatically make the descions that will improve the game as a whole, is a bad premise.

And no matter how good a game designer you think you are, if 80% of the people who play your game, thinks your latest design was unsatisfactory, you will fail.

lets say dark souls II sold 2 million copies,
new dark souls team makes dark souls 3
80% of people dont like it
you have failed as a designer, democracy or not.

now, someone can try to appeal to 80%, and in doing so make a game that 80% of people dislike as well, he is also a fail, but neither invaildates the feedback that 80% of your intended audience is unsatisfied with your product.

80% people of what exactly?

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/07/03/turbine-raiders-make-up-the-smallest-player-group-in-lotro/#comments

thats an irrelvant statistic?
what exactly is your point?

Its very relevant, as you want to push some random 80% which definitely isnt representative of anything but tiny group inside a small group.

Loudmouths on forums account from noting to tiny. Same goes for forum polls.

loudmouths on forum account for infinitely more than no other information at all accounts for.

Lets say you get some pants at a store, than you think women love and will be attracted to.
80% of women you ask say its distasteful and detracts from you
10% tell they like it.

now you can then say i only asked 400 women, and there are 1 million women in the city, my data is useless, but it more useful than the other data you have

MikaHR.1978:

phys.7689:

MikaHR.1978:

Nokaru.7831:

The last thing I’d want is a game designed democratically.

Absolute truth.

“What players want” is such a hogwash. If you ask 1000 players what they want youll get 5000 different stuff.

And if you pick 3 to make youll get 997 saying they dont listen to community and 3 saying you are lazy and didnt make ALL they wanted

the skill of being a good engineer/designer is figuring out what people need/want from feedback and giving them solutions that work.

Figuring out what a project needs, is not always about listening to what everyone says, but if when it actually comes to fruition, everyone dislikes it, you have failed at making a product.

Who is this “everyone”? You?

the quote you made was from a hypothetical situation, as it was a response to a hypothetical, conceptual idea, which is that democracy is not a good means for doing anything.
so since the poster is speaking in terms of concepts, and not numbers, i was also arguing from a conceptual standpoint, which would represent the theoretical democracy that actually does take every revelevant person’s opinion in to consideration.

Vayne.8563:

We’ll see who’s right in two weeks time.

Oh, so now it will only matter in two weeks. You were so certain of the results back when they were more even and there was a rather small sample size.

Vayne.8563:

I should also point out, I posted that poll to reddit before I posted on the forum and the poll was far far more equal.

It was also less of a sample size.

Vayne.8563:

The fact is, off the forum, on reddit, before the forum voted, the poll was a whole lot different.

That tells me something too.

The only thing it should tell you is that you had a smaller sample size.

1000 votes between reddit and the forums is pretty good, all things considered. One would think you’d be able to accept the numbers since it’s your poll. It’s rather sad to see how you’re treating this now that it’s not in your favor.

Nokaru.7831:

Take a look at this thread: Dungeon Patch Discussion 1/28

Wow look at all of those people upset! If only the designers listened to them! What a blunder! The thread is full of people complaining about them removing “res-rushing” in dungeons.

If this game was designed by the community, this garbage would still be in the game, where players throw themselves at bosses over and over again until it dies. Sometimes designers have to do what they think is right, even if many players disagree with it. If it pans out: Great. If it doesn’t: Learn from your mistake, and try something different. (Or hire a new designer)

The fallacy you are making is you think a popular decision is the correct decision. Most of the time it isn’t.

this is why forums are actually more valuable than just what is popular, because the people supplying their opinions also have to supply general reasoning. Knowing their reasoning or understanding what is at the heart of the desire, is the key to designing a great solution.

Point is a good solution does not ignore people, it considers them, and if at the end of the day everyone hates your solution, its not a success, even if you thought you had really good reasons.

phys.7689:

Point is a good solution does not ignore people, it considers them, and if at the end of the day everyone hates your solution, its not a success, even if you thought you had really good reasons.

If you look at that thread, it sure looks like pretty much everyone hated res-rushing being removed. Guess what? They were all wrong.

phys.7689:

MikaHR.1978:

phys.7689:

MikaHR.1978:

phys.7689:

Nokaru.7831:

phys.7689:

But would you prefer a game designed such that it makes 80% of the people who play it disatisfied?

democracy may not be perfect, but leadership that enflames 80% of the people usually leads to revolution.

The best argument against large-scale democracy is just watching 2 minutes of Twitch Plays Pokemon.

If this game was designed democratically, we’d never see things like Liadri or the revamp to Tequatl and the Crown Pavilion.

If you want to change the game, then enter the gaming industry and become a designer. This might come as a shock to you, but It takes more than just having an opinion and clicking on a poll to actually make a good game.

And you still miss the point. Saying people dont know what they want/what is good is fine and dandy, i agree to an extent, but thinking that any small group of people will automatically make the descions that will improve the game as a whole, is a bad premise.

And no matter how good a game designer you think you are, if 80% of the people who play your game, thinks your latest design was unsatisfactory, you will fail.

lets say dark souls II sold 2 million copies,
new dark souls team makes dark souls 3
80% of people dont like it
you have failed as a designer, democracy or not.

now, someone can try to appeal to 80%, and in doing so make a game that 80% of people dislike as well, he is also a fail, but neither invaildates the feedback that 80% of your intended audience is unsatisfied with your product.

80% people of what exactly?

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/07/03/turbine-raiders-make-up-the-smallest-player-group-in-lotro/#comments

thats an irrelvant statistic?
what exactly is your point?

Its very relevant, as you want to push some random 80% which definitely isnt representative of anything but tiny group inside a small group.

Loudmouths on forums account from noting to tiny. Same goes for forum polls.

loudmouths on forum account for infinitely more than no other information at all accounts for.

Lets say you get some pants at a store, than you think women love and will be attracted to.
80% of women you ask say its distasteful and detracts from you
10% tell they like it.

now you can then say i only asked 400 women, and there are 1 million women in the city, my data is useless, but it more useful than the other data you have

But thats not what youre doing here so yor analogy is bogus.

You have overwhemingly skewed sample on forums. Its like forming statistics on 400 women that came back to your shop shortly after to complain/praise your pants (and you sold millions). How many times did you return to shop JUST to give praise to the product?

phys.7689:

Nokaru.7831:

Take a look at this thread: Dungeon Patch Discussion 1/28

Wow look at all of those people upset! If only the designers listened to them! What a blunder! The thread is full of people complaining about them removing “res-rushing” in dungeons.

If this game was designed by the community, this garbage would still be in the game, where players throw themselves at bosses over and over again until it dies. Sometimes designers have to do what they think is right, even if many players disagree with it. If it pans out: Great. If it doesn’t: Learn from your mistake, and try something different. (Or hire a new designer)

The fallacy you are making is you think a popular decision is the correct decision. Most of the time it isn’t.

this is why forums are actually more valuable than just what is popular, because the people supplying their opinions also have to supply general reasoning. Knowing their reasoning or understanding what is at the heart of the desire, is the key to designing a great solution.

Point is a good solution does not ignore people, it considers them, and if at the end of the day everyone hates your solution, its not a success, even if you thought you had really good reasons.

You stilldont get it.

Forums will never be sample for measuring success, let alone make decisions on. Forums represent tiny group which isnt in same category as 95%+ of playerbase.

MikaHR.1978:

phys.7689:

MikaHR.1978:

phys.7689:

MikaHR.1978:

phys.7689:

Nokaru.7831:

phys.7689:

But would you prefer a game designed such that it makes 80% of the people who play it disatisfied?

democracy may not be perfect, but leadership that enflames 80% of the people usually leads to revolution.

The best argument against large-scale democracy is just watching 2 minutes of Twitch Plays Pokemon.

If this game was designed democratically, we’d never see things like Liadri or the revamp to Tequatl and the Crown Pavilion.

If you want to change the game, then enter the gaming industry and become a designer. This might come as a shock to you, but It takes more than just having an opinion and clicking on a poll to actually make a good game.

And you still miss the point. Saying people dont know what they want/what is good is fine and dandy, i agree to an extent, but thinking that any small group of people will automatically make the descions that will improve the game as a whole, is a bad premise.

And no matter how good a game designer you think you are, if 80% of the people who play your game, thinks your latest design was unsatisfactory, you will fail.

lets say dark souls II sold 2 million copies,
new dark souls team makes dark souls 3
80% of people dont like it
you have failed as a designer, democracy or not.

now, someone can try to appeal to 80%, and in doing so make a game that 80% of people dislike as well, he is also a fail, but neither invaildates the feedback that 80% of your intended audience is unsatisfied with your product.

80% people of what exactly?

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/07/03/turbine-raiders-make-up-the-smallest-player-group-in-lotro/#comments

thats an irrelvant statistic?
what exactly is your point?

Its very relevant, as you want to push some random 80% which definitely isnt representative of anything but tiny group inside a small group.

Loudmouths on forums account from noting to tiny. Same goes for forum polls.

loudmouths on forum account for infinitely more than no other information at all accounts for.

Lets say you get some pants at a store, than you think women love and will be attracted to.
80% of women you ask say its distasteful and detracts from you
10% tell they like it.

now you can then say i only asked 400 women, and there are 1 million women in the city, my data is useless, but it more useful than the other data you have

But thats not what youre doing here so yor analogy is bogus.

You have overwhemingly skewed sample on forums. Its like forming statistics on 400 women that came back to your shop (and you sold millions). How many times did you return to shop to give praise to the product?

what do you mean by return to a shop, people often return to shops they like?

It doesn’t matter if the forums is a minority or not.

Vayne.8563:

Hey everyone I created a straw poll to see how people feel about the new leveling experience.

Have at it.

http://strawpoll.me/2555336

You know, it occurs to me, with how much emphasis you have put on forums being a tiny amount of players, why would you ever think that a forum poll would be anything close to accurate?

phys.7689:

MikaHR.1978:

phys.7689:

MikaHR.1978:

phys.7689:

MikaHR.1978:

phys.7689:

Nokaru.7831:

phys.7689:

But would you prefer a game designed such that it makes 80% of the people who play it disatisfied?

democracy may not be perfect, but leadership that enflames 80% of the people usually leads to revolution.

The best argument against large-scale democracy is just watching 2 minutes of Twitch Plays Pokemon.

If this game was designed democratically, we’d never see things like Liadri or the revamp to Tequatl and the Crown Pavilion.

If you want to change the game, then enter the gaming industry and become a designer. This might come as a shock to you, but It takes more than just having an opinion and clicking on a poll to actually make a good game.

And you still miss the point. Saying people dont know what they want/what is good is fine and dandy, i agree to an extent, but thinking that any small group of people will automatically make the descions that will improve the game as a whole, is a bad premise.

And no matter how good a game designer you think you are, if 80% of the people who play your game, thinks your latest design was unsatisfactory, you will fail.

lets say dark souls II sold 2 million copies,
new dark souls team makes dark souls 3
80% of people dont like it
you have failed as a designer, democracy or not.

now, someone can try to appeal to 80%, and in doing so make a game that 80% of people dislike as well, he is also a fail, but neither invaildates the feedback that 80% of your intended audience is unsatisfied with your product.

80% people of what exactly?

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/07/03/turbine-raiders-make-up-the-smallest-player-group-in-lotro/#comments

thats an irrelvant statistic?
what exactly is your point?

Its very relevant, as you want to push some random 80% which definitely isnt representative of anything but tiny group inside a small group.

Loudmouths on forums account from noting to tiny. Same goes for forum polls.

loudmouths on forum account for infinitely more than no other information at all accounts for.

Lets say you get some pants at a store, than you think women love and will be attracted to.
80% of women you ask say its distasteful and detracts from you
10% tell they like it.

now you can then say i only asked 400 women, and there are 1 million women in the city, my data is useless, but it more useful than the other data you have

But thats not what youre doing here so yor analogy is bogus.

You have overwhemingly skewed sample on forums. Its like forming statistics on 400 women that came back to your shop (and you sold millions). How many times did you return to shop to give praise to the product?

what do you mean by return to a shop, people often return to shops they like?

I edited, return to the shop JUST to complain or praise the product, not for anything else.

How many times you bought something, were satisfied with it and went back to the shop with no other intention than to say “i just adore your product”?

MikaHR.1978:

phys.7689:

Nokaru.7831:

Take a look at this thread: Dungeon Patch Discussion 1/28

Wow look at all of those people upset! If only the designers listened to them! What a blunder! The thread is full of people complaining about them removing “res-rushing” in dungeons.

If this game was designed by the community, this garbage would still be in the game, where players throw themselves at bosses over and over again until it dies. Sometimes designers have to do what they think is right, even if many players disagree with it. If it pans out: Great. If it doesn’t: Learn from your mistake, and try something different. (Or hire a new designer)

The fallacy you are making is you think a popular decision is the correct decision. Most of the time it isn’t.

this is why forums are actually more valuable than just what is popular, because the people supplying their opinions also have to supply general reasoning. Knowing their reasoning or understanding what is at the heart of the desire, is the key to designing a great solution.

Point is a good solution does not ignore people, it considers them, and if at the end of the day everyone hates your solution, its not a success, even if you thought you had really good reasons.

You stilldont get it.

Forums will never be sample for measuring success, let alone make decisions on. Forums represent tiny group which isnt in same category as 95%+ of playerbase.

first of all, im pretty sure he didnt just post that poll here, but also on reddit, which people dont specifically go to to complain.
second of all, when you compare this feedback to other forum polls that have been posted, you very rarely find these type of numbers. its usually a lot more balanced even within the forum.

third of all compare it to how many people are coming to complain on the forums compared to other things.

if you usually only get 20 people complaining, and you instead get 80 people, going out of there way to complain about that specific thing, it tells you something.

Notice how many people felt like weighing in on this poll, most of the straw polls here are lucky to get 200 people to respond. This poll is over 1000 people

you are ignoring a lot of information hoping that the 95% that you have no info on secretly love it when a lot of indicators are not coming up positive.
yes statistics are tricky, yes they can be skewed, but when your statistics show something you believe to be innacurate, you have to actually go, investigate and see if they are, and why they are.

then there goes the other side, forget statistics, the reasoning people provide for disliking the systems, and how it clashes with its intended purposes are also solid. What actual reasoning tells you its a good idea to gate skills behind leveling in this game? how does it enhance the game play experience? Why is it reasonably better to get an elite at 40 than 30, your final utility at 35 instead of 20? to only have access to 4 skills for 40 minutes?
what about those things enhances the gameplay?

MikaHR.1978:

phys.7689:

MikaHR.1978:

phys.7689:

MikaHR.1978:

phys.7689:

MikaHR.1978:

phys.7689:

Nokaru.7831:

phys.7689:

But would you prefer a game designed such that it makes 80% of the people who play it disatisfied?

democracy may not be perfect, but leadership that enflames 80% of the people usually leads to revolution.

The best argument against large-scale democracy is just watching 2 minutes of Twitch Plays Pokemon.

If this game was designed democratically, we’d never see things like Liadri or the revamp to Tequatl and the Crown Pavilion.

If you want to change the game, then enter the gaming industry and become a designer. This might come as a shock to you, but It takes more than just having an opinion and clicking on a poll to actually make a good game.

And you still miss the point. Saying people dont know what they want/what is good is fine and dandy, i agree to an extent, but thinking that any small group of people will automatically make the descions that will improve the game as a whole, is a bad premise.

And no matter how good a game designer you think you are, if 80% of the people who play your game, thinks your latest design was unsatisfactory, you will fail.

lets say dark souls II sold 2 million copies,
new dark souls team makes dark souls 3
80% of people dont like it
you have failed as a designer, democracy or not.

now, someone can try to appeal to 80%, and in doing so make a game that 80% of people dislike as well, he is also a fail, but neither invaildates the feedback that 80% of your intended audience is unsatisfied with your product.

80% people of what exactly?

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/07/03/turbine-raiders-make-up-the-smallest-player-group-in-lotro/#comments

thats an irrelvant statistic?
what exactly is your point?

Its very relevant, as you want to push some random 80% which definitely isnt representative of anything but tiny group inside a small group.

Loudmouths on forums account from noting to tiny. Same goes for forum polls.

loudmouths on forum account for infinitely more than no other information at all accounts for.

Lets say you get some pants at a store, than you think women love and will be attracted to.
80% of women you ask say its distasteful and detracts from you
10% tell they like it.

now you can then say i only asked 400 women, and there are 1 million women in the city, my data is useless, but it more useful than the other data you have

But thats not what youre doing here so yor analogy is bogus.

You have overwhemingly skewed sample on forums. Its like forming statistics on 400 women that came back to your shop (and you sold millions). How many times did you return to shop to give praise to the product?

what do you mean by return to a shop, people often return to shops they like?

I edited, return to the shop JUST to complain or praise the product, not for anything else.

How many times you bought something, were satisfied with it and went back to the shop with no other intention than to say “i just adore your product”?

its actually pretty common when you give them something they like a lot. I tend to get a lot of positive feedback . You also can tell by people returning to the place of business.
think about this, many people here have played many alts, they were return customers of the old system. Now they are complaining customers, many people who in general are on the opposite sides of forum politics are way more unified in this, people who never logged into the forums are now complaining when they never felt the need before.

let me put it like this, you dont know you have a bad product when 3% of people return it, but when 10% return it, and go out of there way to tell friends they dislike it, and you usually get 2% of people coming back to say they like it, and now you get .01% of people saying they like it.

Its fair to say you have an inferior product to your other products.

you can ignore it, but a lot of data suggests that this is not a favorable change.

MikaHR.1978:

Forums will never be sample for measuring success, let alone make decisions on. Forums represent tiny group which isnt in same category as 95%+ of playerbase.

You would have a point as it related to this issue if there wasn’t any displeasure being expressed in in-game chat. However, there is a significant amount. With that in mind, saying the forums aren’t a good indication of the true displeasure with the NPE is wishful thinking at best and outright deceptive at worst.

Whatever the tests were, Anet based this changes on, Anet has lately shown a history of reading things wrong or not finding a good middle-ground for their solutions.

I´ve leveled 5 toons to level 12 since patch (yes, keyfarming may not be efficient currently but it´s still doable) and there are some things I would enjoy as a new player like the faster levels, the rewards popping up, the dodging-tutorial, to unlock new weapon skills just by changing to a new weapon (where btw. their argument for avoiding to overwhelm new players doesn´t hold truth as I can get to level 10 easily with only one weapon-type – and on changing to a new weapon-type I get 5 new skills instantly).

But some things are clearly overdone and in my opinion a no-go:

I simply run through the starting area without touching an enemy (as far as possible), a new player will need more time to figure out what´s going on or may even try to spend time there, looking around to find some new things, killing enemies (as he´s supposed to) – and he receives NOTHING, no loot, practically no XP on kills, no new weapons, no new weapon skills, nothing to harvest. This zone feels dead now, fighting is useless and absolutely boring! Welcome to GW2!!!

After that, I start doing low level hearts and levels come in fast, but gameplay stays stall to long. There should be at least a full new weapon-set in every level reward to be able to try new things out (bad luck though for engineers . . .), traits, F1-F4 skills and utilities should be available earlier on.

So I voted for “could be ok with some adjustments”, which means: without adjustments it´s not ok, nothing else.

phys.7689:

MikaHR.1978:

phys.7689:

Nokaru.7831:

Take a look at this thread: Dungeon Patch Discussion 1/28

Wow look at all of those people upset! If only the designers listened to them! What a blunder! The thread is full of people complaining about them removing “res-rushing” in dungeons.

If this game was designed by the community, this garbage would still be in the game, where players throw themselves at bosses over and over again until it dies. Sometimes designers have to do what they think is right, even if many players disagree with it. If it pans out: Great. If it doesn’t: Learn from your mistake, and try something different. (Or hire a new designer)

The fallacy you are making is you think a popular decision is the correct decision. Most of the time it isn’t.

this is why forums are actually more valuable than just what is popular, because the people supplying their opinions also have to supply general reasoning. Knowing their reasoning or understanding what is at the heart of the desire, is the key to designing a great solution.

Point is a good solution does not ignore people, it considers them, and if at the end of the day everyone hates your solution, its not a success, even if you thought you had really good reasons.

You stilldont get it.

Forums will never be sample for measuring success, let alone make decisions on. Forums represent tiny group which isnt in same category as 95%+ of playerbase.

first of all, im pretty sure he didnt just post that poll here, but also on reddit, which people dont specifically go to to complain.
second of all, when you compare this feedback to other forum polls that have been posted, you very rarely find these type of numbers. its usually a lot more balanced even within the forum.

third of all compare it to how many people are coming to complain on the forums compared to other things.

if you usually only get 20 people complaining, and you instead get 80 people, going out of there way to complain about that specific thing, it tells you something.

Notice how many people felt like weighing in on this poll, most of the straw polls here are lucky to get 200 people to respond. This poll is over 1000 people

you are ignoring a lot of information hoping that the 95% that you have no info on secretly love it when a lot of indicators are not coming up positive.
yes statistics are tricky, yes they can be skewed, but when your statistics show something you believe to be innacurate, you have to actually go, investigate and see if they are, and why they are.

then there goes the other side, forget statistics, the reasoning people provide for disliking the systems, and how it clashes with its intended purposes are also solid. What actual reasoning tells you its a good idea to gate skills behind leveling in this game? how does it enhance the game play experience? Why is it reasonably better to get an elite at 40 than 30, your final utility at 35 instead of 20? to only have access to 4 skills for 40 minutes?
what about those things enhances the gameplay?

reddit is the same boat as forums. Skewed sample.

Oh look whos talking, you also ignore load of information and OPENLY hope that 80% of those 95% doesnt like the changes, and accusing someone who hasnt said a word on it that he “secretly hopes” rofl

Oh yes, lets toss everything aside and look at whining of tiny group inside a small group that is completely different than rest of the playerbase. In other words, yell “LISTEN TO ME!” Guess what? thats the same way those raiders responded on LOTRO forums.

And what makes you think getting all those stuff on some arbitrary level diminishes experience of majority of people? What would be te number? 22? 25,68? 32,85? that would be SO AWESOME! And based on what? Your personal experience?

And you conveniently forget that, while you have access to only 4 skills for short period of time you get LOT more skills after that opposed to before (every weapon is unlocked, no more grinding weapon skills) I prefer the latter and former was a definition of needless grind.

MikaHR.1978:

Forums represent tiny group which isnt in same category as 95%+ of playerbase.

Probably a waste, but I bet you might once have heard that statistics on opinions and votes use only tiny groups and not 95% of a full group?

And I would say that a game-forum is almost as representative as can be as people come here for information first (and not only complainers).

So if the forum is a non-representative group than it´s because the average forum-user is more engaged and informed compared to an average player.

hydeaut.1758:

MikaHR.1978:

Forums represent tiny group which isnt in same category as 95%+ of playerbase.

Probably a waste, but I bet you might once have heard that statistics on opinions and votes use only tiny groups and not 95% of a full group?

And I would say that a game-forum is almost as representative as can be as people come here for information first (and not only complainers).

So if the forum is a non-representative group than it´s because the average forum-user is more engaged and informed compared to an average player.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/07/03/turbine-raiders-make-up-the-smallest-player-group-in-lotro/#comments

Forums are as skewed sample as it gets.

And if you paid attention, to get somewhat acceptable result you need REPRESENTATIVE sample (unless you want certain outcomes in which case you use skewed sample)

It would be like going to certain political party gathering and poll there “who will win the elections” or “who is best candidate for prime minister/president”.

hydeaut.1758:

I simply run through the starting area without touching an enemy (as far as possible), a new player will need more time to figure out what´s going on or may even try to spend time there, looking around to find some new things, killing enemies (as he´s supposed to) – and he receives NOTHING, no loot, practically no XP on kills, no new weapons, no new weapon skills, nothing to harvest.

There used to be loot in the starter instance, a long time ago.

MikaHR.1978:

And if you paid attention, to get somewhat acceptable result you need REPRESENTATIVE sample (unless you want certain outcomes in which case you use skewed sample)

Well, we don’t have a representative sample. We have this poll, created by someone who has stated he did it to show that the forum’s response to the NPE is disproportionally negative compared to players’ actual feelings. The poll failed to show that, and actually confirmed that a significant portion of the players are displeased. Now combine that with the displeasure being expressed inside the game and the probable silent portion of the playerbase that just stopped logging in and ANet has a serious problem. Whether or not a majority of the people dislike the NPE (and the ONLY numbers we have right now show it is a significant majority) is irrelevant. What is relevant is that ANet just alienated a significant portion of its players, a habit that is not healthy for any MMO.

You and Vayne can argue until you’re blue in the face that everything is dandy and there are no problems with GW2, but right now the evidence points otherwise.

MikaHR.1978:

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/07/03/turbine-raiders-make-up-the-smallest-player-group-in-lotro/#comments

Forums are as skewed sample as it gets.

And where does the article say that LOTRO-raiders have the same opinion or are a not representative group on topics even outside of raids? (as it´s also bad, we won´t have much GW2-raiders here on the forum . . .)

The article says only the same I said: the forum represents the more engaged and informed players (who raiders usually should be).

I really like the changes. I don’t care whether or not I have my elite skill at level 15 or 40 or even 80. Part of that is because the april patch nerfs were far worse and effect my game play a lot more: It’s useless to try to do wvw (not EOTM which is fine) as an uplevel and I kind of despair when thinking about trying to figure out a build as the changes made to the trait system forced me to look for a cookie cutter build but unfortunately the weapon combo I’d like to have is really unpopular. So I have to be level 80 anyway before I can start doing what I usually do. But getting to that never took me long, so I take this as a fun ride, the work begins later.

NewTrain.7549:

Well, we don’t have a representative sample. We have this poll, created by someone who has stated he did it to show that the forum’s response to the NPE is disproportionally negative compared to players’ actual feelings. The poll failed to show that, and actually confirmed that a significant portion of the players are displeased.

I wonder if Anet is looking at this poll or not. I hope they are.

I have two friends who play gw2, one is a veteran (played over 2 years), the other started the game 3 weeks ago. Both are displeased, but ironically the newbie is more upset with this NPE than the veteran. But I can understand that, she still needs to level characters, while the veteran does not.

hydeaut.1758:

MikaHR.1978:

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/07/03/turbine-raiders-make-up-the-smallest-player-group-in-lotro/#comments

Forums are as skewed sample as it gets.

And where does the article say that LOTRO-raiders have the same opinion or are a not representative group on topics even outside of raids? (as it´s also bad, we won´t have much GW2-raiders here on the forum . . .)

The article says only the same I said: the forum represents the more engaged and informed players (who raiders usually should be).

And thats exactly the point: number of posters and posters themselves cannot claim they representanyone but themselves. While forum posters view MIGHT align with playerbase view you would first need proof that they are in fact representative sample (Yelling on forums “IM RIGHT” doesnt prove anything as clearly picturedin teh example i provided. EVEN IF OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of forums yells “IM RIGHT”)

And forum posters cannot do that. The only one who can do that is ANet, and they said they have done that (by 2 years of metrics/feedback) AND that they will monitor what happens and react accordingly (for whatever its worth, but they clearly said so)

To clrify on my previous example: if you poll on certain political party gathering “who is the best candidate for president” it MIGHT turn out later that that guy IS best candidate. But what you didnt have in your poll was representative sample and you had skewed results at the time.

phys.7689:

Vayne, the problem with all your logic, is it starts off with arenanet are the guys who know everything, therefore, they will make few mistakes and in general choose the best course of action at any time.

But this has proven not to be the case, its not even their companies self percieved style of development.

They believe, not in finding the perfect answer, but making an attempt, then trying it out, then iterating on that attempt. Therefore its not a good idea to assume that their solutions to any problem are always the best answer.

Also your idea that you have a package, and cannot alter that package, because it would throw off your data is a very very poor tool for the scientific method, or testing an engineering solution.
For example, even if their new system is retaining players, they dont know what facet of it is retaining players.
Is it new graphics/visual stimulation on level up?
Is it a content guide?
Is it locking of core abilities?
Is it less information?

by taking it as a package, you have the worst information on what changes are producing the effects you want, and what changes are not, or are effecting other things.

anyhow point is, the system isnt good, to be honest, even though a lot of people speak loudly here, usually the poll results are usually more balanced. I agree that new players wont know that it sucks, because they will never have played a superior system. But what this poll actually shows you is that it is not that likely that even new players would enjoy the system as much as old players did.

Which ultimately means, less people will enjoy the game as much. Which no matter how you slice it will probably lead to less profits at some point down the road.

Also consider this version of the game is not doing as well in china as it did over here, even though china has a larger market. I wouldnt say that this system is a winner for actually making a more appealing game overall. Retaining a higher % of players with less players being interested/reccomending the game may be a losing strategy.

But I don’t think Arena Net knows everything. I think they simply, on the whole, know more about their own game than most forum goers. Not all forum goers Most.

There are people on these forums who’s posts I absolutely respect. Your posts are one of them and I take your posts very seriously. Do you want to know why?

Because you don’t attack people. You don’t threaten. You don’t make ultimatums. You back up what you say with fact, and you don’t state opinions as some kind of gospel. You don’t use hyperbole. You simply speak what you believe to be true, which is fine.

But when people intentionally try to cause a panic, when they say no one likes this update, when they say Anet is lying or Anet is trying to kill the game, or whatever other stuff they want to concoct to support a point, they’re simply not being reasonable.

I don’t think Anet is perfect. And I think Anet makes some mistakes. But the degree to which some people will go to vilify is absolutely unacceptable…to me anyway.

New flash: Poll data is worse than looking over large sample sizes of metrics.

Plot twist: I think looking at metrics is stupid as well.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

I love how the entirety of the forums is basically everyone in unison fighting against Anet’s paid poster….

Hey, they stopped paying me last year.

(Sarcasm)

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

I love how the entirety of the forums is basically everyone in unison fighting against Anet’s paid poster….

Hey, they stopped paying me last year.

(Sarcasm)

I think they were talking about Vayne, actually.

But, it’s good to know that you are no longer on Arenanet’s payroll.

Sokia.3710:

But, it’s good to know that you are no longer on Arenanet’s payroll.

Well they paid me in asura I was permitted to kill. Snaff was the down payment to get started. I asked for Taimi and we kinda sorta had a disagreement.

They told me I could have Moto instead and I just couldn’t do it.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Well they paid me in asura I was permitted to kill. Snaff was the down payment to get started. I asked for Taimi and we kinda sorta had a disagreement.

They told me I could have Moto instead and I just couldn’t do it.

You should have negotiated. You might have gotten a few Inquest.

I bet more than 50% of the people taking the poll haven’t even tried the new leveling experience

Sokia.3710:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Well they paid me in asura I was permitted to kill. Snaff was the down payment to get started. I asked for Taimi and we kinda sorta had a disagreement.

They told me I could have Moto instead and I just couldn’t do it.

You should have negotiated. You might have gotten a few Inquest.

Yeah but I get those anyway. And the golems.

Except for Hobo-Tron.

harrison fang.1874:

I bet more than 50% of the people taking the poll haven’t even tried the new leveling experience

I bet leprechauns are made of chocolate and I have the exact same amount of proof as you do.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Yeah but I get those anyway. And the golems.

Careful, the Inquest have made the Mark II golems much more powerful.

Personally, I think they stole the design from my old Asuran thief, Sokia Sureshot. Clearly, the average Inquest inventor doesn’t have the genius to make a powerful Gatling Fists.

NewTrain.7549:

harrison fang.1874:

I bet more than 50% of the people taking the poll haven’t even tried the new leveling experience

I bet leprechauns are made of chocolate and I have the exact same amount of proof as you do.

That’s why he said I bet. It’s his opinion, or guess. I’d agree that a percentage of people didn’t play it and still commented, and I’m quite sure a number of people didn’t give it a fair shake, because they went in angry. That’s just human nature. When you’re already angry about something, you tend to exaggerate it’s importance in your mind. Everyone has had big fights with a loved one about little things that don’t matter.

I think part of the backlash of this patch comes from an overall discontent with part of the community, who was looking for a reason to attack.

Sokia.3710:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Yeah but I get those anyway. And the golems.

Careful, the Inquest have made the Mark II golems much more powerful.

Personally, I think they stole the design from my old Asuran thief, Sokia Sureshot. Clearly, the average Inquest inventor doesn’t have the genius to make a powerful Gatling Fists.

I suspect it was derived from Zinn’s work with N.O.X.

Vayne.8563:

I think part of the backlash of this patch comes from an overall discontent with part of the community, who was looking for a reason to attack.

I don’t see any reason why the answer needs to be so deepset. People got pretty upset about the trait changes and quite a few are still complaining about it, or have left the game over it.

This patch looks like more of the same: Trying to improve the experiences for newbies at the cost of what veterans have grown to love.

I think the discontent over stuff like this tends to look very sporadic and temperamental for a couple of reasons. 1) Most of the people who are genuinely angry about it are just going to leave. They aren’t going to stick around complaining until the end of time. 2) The people who stick around may just give up after a bit and give it some time – you only have so much energy to get bothered about things in your life.

Labjax.2465:

2) The people who stick around may just give up after a bit and give it some time – you only have so much energy to get bothered about things in your life.

Actually, I’m just sticking around because the only other MMO I have any interest in at all isn’t released yet here in the states. So, I might be posting for another…. three days. After that, I might not be around here much if at all unless Arenanet actually implements changes to Guild Wars 2 that actually make the game more fun rather than less fun. Which, I find unlikely. Still, I’m interested enough in seeing how they react to the general discontent to stick around, at least until I find a better game or they confirm that they really are taking the game in the “NPE direction”

I don’t think this pole is very genuine since anyone can vote! which means people that don’t even play the game can put there 2c worth in and create inaccurate results.

It might be worth the devs making a poll feature on the forums, but keep in mind that the game is not controlled by user voting polls, but by metric data owned by ArenaNet.

I can’t remember the exact number, the vote start with “it would be ok with some change” in overwhelming lead, and somehow it end up with people hating the NPE.

There was like 200 votes yesterday, and I think something like 60%(correct me if my memory fail) would be ok if they did some change. Very few people actually say they hated the patch(like around 15%)

That was from my memory though, my memory could be wrong.

laokoko.7403:

I can’t remember the exact number, the vote start with “it would be ok with some change” in overwhelming lead, and somehow it end up with people hating the NPE.

There was like 200 votes yesterday, and I think something like 60%(correct me if my memory fail) would be ok if they did some change. Very few people actually say they hated the patch(like around 15%)

That was from my memory though, my memory could be wrong.

Even so, OK if changed means not OK now.

Personally I don’t normally put much stock in polls of this sort. Questions can be leading, respondents are likely to not be representative of the affected group as a whole, and so on. I am, however, surprised/intrigued by the sheer number of responses.

Vayne.8563:

NewTrain.7549:

harrison fang.1874:

I bet more than 50% of the people taking the poll haven’t even tried the new leveling experience

I bet leprechauns are made of chocolate and I have the exact same amount of proof as you do.

That’s why he said I bet. It’s his opinion, or guess. I’d agree that a percentage of people didn’t play it and still commented, and I’m quite sure a number of people didn’t give it a fair shake, because they went in angry. That’s just human nature. When you’re already angry about something, you tend to exaggerate it’s importance in your mind. Everyone has had big fights with a loved one about little things that don’t matter.

I think part of the backlash of this patch comes from an overall discontent with part of the community, who was looking for a reason to attack.

Or, you know, people may just actually dislike the NPE. But no…that couldn’t be the case.

Something that does stand out to me is the number of people who were not frequent forum posters before this patch that are coming to the forums to comment (mostly to complain).

I am seeing:

1) people who have very little post history before the patch
2) people whose post history shows little or no complaining prior to this patch.
3) people who have no post history before this patch

and so on.

The complaints are not just a forum regular phenomenon.

NewTrain.7549:

Or, you know, people may just actually dislike the NPE. But no…that couldn’t be the case.

The NPE, however, is simply the most visible part of the patch. There’s other stuff to like in it too.

Like the sudden popularity of my ranger in groups . . .

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

NewTrain.7549:

Or, you know, people may just actually dislike the NPE. But no…that couldn’t be the case.

The NPE, however, is simply the most visible part of the patch. There’s other stuff to like in it too.

Like the sudden popularity of my ranger in groups . . .

Which makes the impact of the NPE all the worse, if people have such a dislike for the patch even despite the few positive changes it made.

Ashen.2907:

Something that does stand out to me is the number of people who were not frequent forum posters before this patch that are coming to the forums to comment (mostly to complain).

I am seeing:

1) people who have very little post history before the patch
2) people whose post history shows little or no complaining prior to this patch.
3) people who have no post history before this patch

and so on.

The complaints are not just a forum regular phenomenon.

Check my post history. I think you’ll find that I’ve posted very little before 9/9. And by “very little” I don’t remember ever visiting these forums before that, much less logging in. So, I doubt I have even a single post before then. But, as Vayne pointed out, I have a faulty memory.

Sokia.3710:

Ashen.2907:

Something that does stand out to me is the number of people who were not frequent forum posters before this patch that are coming to the forums to comment (mostly to complain).

I am seeing:

1) people who have very little post history before the patch
2) people whose post history shows little or no complaining prior to this patch.
3) people who have no post history before this patch

and so on.

The complaints are not just a forum regular phenomenon.

Check my post history. I think you’ll find that I’ve posted very little before 9/9. And by “very little” I don’t remember ever visiting these forums before that, much less logging in. So, I doubt I have even a single post before then. But, as Vayne pointed out, I have a faulty memory.

I did check your post history. You are one of those to whom I referred in the quoted post.

NewTrain.7549:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

NewTrain.7549:

Or, you know, people may just actually dislike the NPE. But no…that couldn’t be the case.

The NPE, however, is simply the most visible part of the patch. There’s other stuff to like in it too.

Like the sudden popularity of my ranger in groups . . .

Which makes the impact of the NPE all the worse, if people have such a dislike for the patch even despite the few positive changes it made.

. . . some people are calling the other changes also negative. Primarily the people seeing rangers are no longer always free bags in WvW . . .