Levels segregate the game world
OP this is not the time to be that guy.
I ? Karkas.
Levels segregate the game world.
People cant enjoy the full of the game world without leveling first.
if players take their time, they miss out on all the cool things happening all over the place.
So no point not rushing to max level. but that leads to burnout since the skill/trait system doesnt reward well for leveling between 1-30, 30-40, 40-60, 60-80.
you know you can get to lvl 80 in ONE day through crafting right? costs a bit of gold, but saves tons of time
I thought they nerfed the XP on crafting some time ago that isn’t possible anymore.
Levels segregate the game world.
People cant enjoy the full of the game world without leveling first.
if players take their time, they miss out on all the cool things happening all over the place.
So no point not rushing to max level. but that leads to burnout since the skill/trait system doesnt reward well for leveling between 1-30, 30-40, 40-60, 60-80.
you know you can get to lvl 80 in ONE day through crafting right? costs a bit of gold, but saves tons of time
I thought they nerfed the XP on crafting some time ago that isn’t possible anymore.
This is true. You cannot level all the way to 80 because crafting was scaled to give the levels based on a skill of 500. Crafting skills that remain at 400 ranks no longer give the full amount.
“Be angry about legendary weapons, sure, but what about the recent drought of content?”
-Mike O’Brien
Because we can’t be angry about both?
-Mike O’Brien
Because we can’t be angry about both?
RPGs with no levels tend to be boring for me, I find having levels a lot of fun. There are sandbox games out there for you, like Darkfall or Eve Online.
I didn’t say progression is, based on levels but you haven’t found a way to give people a sense of progression if you take levels of away. What would you put into place that would give people a sense of progression that is not a gear grind. What would you use to keep people playing? Cause content is not enough to keep people playing as Anet found out when people got to lvl80 and stopped playing. There was a ton of content but not progressive content so they stated that there was no end game. So how would you fix this in a game without level progression or gear progression?
I told you already. Gear can still be tied to a level system.
unlock this model and gear stats at level x,y,z.
But dont lock Traits/Skills to level requirements and dont lock zones to levels.
So players can play and go wherever they want and create their own story and progression. They can play any event. The levels would be the reward for the fun, instead of how it currently is, which is fun is the reward for leveling through the gated content.
still has its progression. But not forced on people like it is now. its Optional grind, and comes with the fun of playing the way you enjoy.
some people enjoy defend events. well they can do that all day long and explore to find new defense events.
Some people like escort events, they can do that all day and find new events of that kind.
some people like champ zergs,
some people like hearts,
some people like jump puzzles,
etc.
they can play the way they enjoy, and still get their levels, but they wont be locked away from the stuff they enjoy simply because they dont fit a level requirment. can you imagine how this game would have been if they also locked SPvP and WvW like this around levels?
who actually likes defending events or escorting events besides maybe roleplayers (no offense to you guys)? enemies spawn on the side and you have to defeat them and this repeats for 5-6 minutes while waiting in one spot (defending) or having to facepalm every minute when the npc being escorted runs backwards to attack something way behind (escorting)? champ zergs are also for farming…
you are in the wrong genre. go play adventure/fighting games, because those are the kinds of games that you want gw2 to be. no offense to adventure/fighting games of course, but this is gw2…
I started playing GW2, sight unseen, and only 3 days later was participating in the Hallowe’en event, including running around the labyrinth fighting nasty bosses at level 80. I wasn’t very good at it, but it was great fun.
Try doing that in any other MMO.
This thread is proof that people will complain about absolutely anything.
>Wanting everything at level 1
That’s a whole new level of Entitlement that I’ve never seen until now. It’s like buying the game, and wanting to beat Zhaitan 5 minutes later.
GW2 was marketed as Endgame starts at level 1 after all.
That appeals to a lot of people, because after years of playing in WoW,EQ,RIft, etc, many people realize that they dont need levels since its only a short part of the game.
Even the game of this same IP that existed before GW2, aka Guild Wars 1, was built on this concept, by having only 20 level, and the rest of the game is endgame, since the levels without the illusions of grind, is really only a small part of long term gameplay.
Endgame is the long term part of a MMO.
GW2 was not marketed as such. They never stated it anywhere that you would be able to do everything at lvl1, or that endgame was at lvl1. Guild Wars 1 is a different game with a different concept behind it. Guild Wars 2 has more levels with a possibility of higher lvls in the future (not taken off the table).
It was in fact marketed as such. I dont feel like searching for it on google. but Anet did say Endgame starts at level 1. They also said the game wouldnt have grind.
http://gdcvault.com/play/1013691/Designing-Guild-Wars-2-Dynamic
It was in fact marketed as such. I dont feel like searching for it on google. but Anet did say Endgame starts at level 1. They also said the game wouldnt have grind.
http://gdcvault.com/play/1013691/Designing-Guild-Wars-2-Dynamic
I don’t remember reading anything like that. Are you sure you are not referring to the statement that “everything is Endgame”? Because if that’s the statement you are looking for, that was about level downscaling, which makes low level content not so trivial to high level characters (unlike other MMOs, high level characters can’t go one-shooting bosses on lower level areas because they are downscaled).
About the grind, you are right that they did say that there would be no grinding, and they really couldn’t keep up with that statement (some of the LS achievements are really grindy). But, as I said before, grinding means doing the same thing over and over again. Since there are many ways to level on this game, leveling is only grinding if you want it to be. For example, there is a “legend” in my server about a guy that leveled to 80 only by ressing people, and that’s grinding (and probably just a myth).
Tarnished Coast
Astrid Strongheart, Norn Ranger.
“I wish juvenile wolves were bigger”
Astrid Strongheart, Norn Ranger.
“I wish juvenile wolves were bigger”
I didn’t say progression is, based on levels but you haven’t found a way to give people a sense of progression if you take levels of away. What would you put into place that would give people a sense of progression that is not a gear grind. What would you use to keep people playing? Cause content is not enough to keep people playing as Anet found out when people got to lvl80 and stopped playing. There was a ton of content but not progressive content so they stated that there was no end game. So how would you fix this in a game without level progression or gear progression?
I told you already. Gear can still be tied to a level system.
unlock this model and gear stats at level x,y,z.
But dont lock Traits/Skills to level requirements and dont lock zones to levels.
So players can play and go wherever they want and create their own story and progression. They can play any event. The levels would be the reward for the fun, instead of how it currently is, which is fun is the reward for leveling through the gated content.
still has its progression. But not forced on people like it is now. its Optional grind, and comes with the fun of playing the way you enjoy.
some people enjoy defend events. well they can do that all day long and explore to find new defense events.
Some people like escort events, they can do that all day and find new events of that kind.
some people like champ zergs,
some people like hearts,
some people like jump puzzles,
etc.
they can play the way they enjoy, and still get their levels, but they wont be locked away from the stuff they enjoy simply because they dont fit a level requirment. can you imagine how this game would have been if they also locked SPvP and WvW like this around levels?
Based on this logic why would you lock gear and not skill traits and skills? Since gear is what mostly allows you in this game to do things and not your level then it is gear that is locking you from progressing and not the traits. If my lvl1 warrior could have a lvl80 GS and lvl80 exotics he wouldn’t be prevented from doing things.
Also based on you want you failed to meet the 2nd condition. 0 gear grind. You created a gear grind by removing lvl grind. To get better gear I must lvl just so i can wear better gear. The solo purpose of lvling is for gear which is a gear grind. The way Anet has it the importance of lvling is not for gear but for skills (till lvl30) then traits (lvl80) then gear. Gear being last and optional. Yours would remove part 1 and part 2 and make it soloely based on gear which creates a gear grind.
Try again this time make a progression system that has 0 level progression and 0 gear grind.
Because Gear is just for looks and stats. Traits define how you play. Skills are tied to Traits and build. The way you look and the stats you wear arent as important as the build you go into battle with.
A player going into the world, fully scaled in level, and with full traits, and make builds for different fights. Gear is a totally different ball game of grinding.
You still haven’t removed the grind you created thou. You created a gear grind based on your thought as most people always want a sense of progression. Since you moved GW2 progression system and replacing it with this one you are making a gear grind.
Remove the gear grind or else you will have anger on the forums like Anet did with Ascended gear being introduced.
Edit: As well it is going against the core design of the game which is no gear grind only for cosmetics.
I didnt add anything. the same gear grind is currently in the game. I dont care about it, since it has no effect on gameplay. Skills/Traits all change gameplay. Thats why I want access to them. Also zones effect gameplay because different zones have different events in them to play.
the same level/gear grind can stay. I didnt touch on that. By giving us full traits and making the world accessible for all levels, wont effect the gear/level grind. you can still grind for levels and gear just like it currently is. I keep saying that. I just want full exploration, full traits and skills.
I wouldnt mind gaining levels, if I could do it passively from just having fun and playing what I want, where I want, how I want with the freedom to make a full build from start.
I’m afraid Knighthonor you making a lot of unsupported statements to contradict people without offering any evidence to support your own statements. I can remember the old text based multi user dungeons that predated Everquest I and Ultima Online and the majority of them also had levels. Name the MMOs without levels that you particularly enjoyed. They were probably free form or had some alternative character develop that equated to levels, even though there were not called levels.
New players in GW2 can compete in end game WvW immediately.
New players can compete in end game SPvP immediately.
New players have end game content such as world events in low level zones.
Experienced players mix with new players for end game content in low level zones.
New players usually have access to living story content and holiday features.This is the evidence that supports the case that GW2 does give new players the opportunity to play with experienced players. If you want the end game content with full character capability and full itemization I suggest you go directly into SPvP right now.
You can scale up in level but you dont get access to the gameplay and build making because its all locked behind level gates, unless playing SPvP. Which there is a reason that all of this is unlocked in SPvP. Why does WvW scale levels, if levels are everything in this genre? you and I both know the answers. just because other games did it doesnt mean its required. games had other forms of gated content, but wasnt character levels.
It was in fact marketed as such. I dont feel like searching for it on google. but Anet did say Endgame starts at level 1. They also said the game wouldnt have grind.
http://gdcvault.com/play/1013691/Designing-Guild-Wars-2-DynamicI don’t remember reading anything like that. Are you sure you are not referring to the statement that “everything is Endgame”? Because if that’s the statement you are looking for, that was about level downscaling, which makes low level content not so trivial to high level characters (unlike other MMOs, high level characters can’t go one-shooting bosses on lower level areas because they are downscaled).
About the grind, you are right that they did say that there would be no grinding, and they really couldn’t keep up with that statement (some of the LS achievements are really grindy). But, as I said before, grinding means doing the same thing over and over again. Since there are many ways to level on this game, leveling is only grinding if you want it to be. For example, there is a “legend” in my server about a guy that leveled to 80 only by ressing people, and that’s grinding (and probably just a myth).
its hard trying to find all those past quotes from ante now, since they were prerelease.
start here (this is what I found on google, som other heard the same statement)
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/The-only-thing-endgame-is-lacking
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/347716/page/1
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1056741-What-PvE-endgame-content-should-be-expected
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/938738-guild-wars-2/64084855?page=4
dont know what they all said in those links, just what came up from google so its somewhere on those pages.
I’m still gobsmacked that you could even suggest that character levels are an invention that began with Everquest.
It didnt invent them. but it made them standard, as the person I was responding to put it in context.
I was explaining that just because it became mainstream by Everquest 1 doesnt mean it has to be that way, since it wasnt mainstream standard before EQ1.
If you had the immediate access to everything you would quickly become bored, possibly before you even had time to become familiar with many nuances of the game. Levels serve in many ways, including easing the player into difficulty, creating a sense of progression/discovery, etc. This is one of a reason reasons its easier to burn out on a FPS than an RPG.
Levels in GW2 mainly split up content based on difficulty. It’s not always perfect, but for example Queensdale has easier content than Snowden Drifts, Blazeridge Steps has easier content than Mount Maelstrom, etc etc.
The idea is that levelling your character allows you access to content which is harder gameplay-wise, preventing you from jumping straight into hard content before you get used to playing your character.
There are issues, of course. You can easily get used to a character without levelling at all in PvP, and the difficulty variance in dungeons weirdly trends towards some of the lower level dungeons being amongst the hardest. AC, TA and CM all feel harder to me than HotW, CoE and CoF. The new Kessex Hills may be somewhat harder than some mid-game zones.
But the main idea is that levels are supposed to separate content based on difficulty. Whether the process of raising your level is too long or not is something else, but levels themselves have a purpose.
When I play Halo I have option to choose how hard I want to play from day 1. Thats an option.
I dont need anybody to direct me on what I find fun. If a player finds a location too hard, they can always waypoint back to easier zones. (as you are calling it). Thats what the freedom of exploration is all about. sometimes you will run into things that take you by surprise, and some places you find suits you best. Why restrict that? We are humans. we know how determine whats fun to us. we dont need others to do that for us. This not MTV/VH1. pun… bad pun i know.
Respectfully, Knighthonor, you’re playing the wrong game. In fact, you’re playing the wrong genre. You should go find some nice action adventure games to play.
again hate when people say this, because Levels wasnt always the Genre.
Playing with others in a world, was define this genre. not levels, since Character level trail didnt become popular until Everquest 1, and made standard from WoW which uses the same system as Everquest 1. those games were popular, but doesnt mean level locking mechanics is a good game design.
its hard trying to find all those past quotes from ante now, since they were prerelease.
start here (this is what I found on google, som other heard the same statement)
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/The-only-thing-endgame-is-lacking
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/347716/page/1
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1056741-What-PvE-endgame-content-should-be-expected
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/938738-guild-wars-2/64084855?page=4dont know what they all said in those links, just what came up from google so its somewhere on those pages.
“‘Endgame’ starts as soon you make your character, all the fun will be when you level, and not only at level 80.
In other games, the leveling is just a long and boring tutorial, where as the highest level is where the ‘endgame’ starts. In Guild Wars, the leveling is the game itself, you don’t need to go through all the stuff to reach ‘endgame’ the ‘endgame’ and the fun will start as soon you make your character."
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1056741-What-PvE-endgame-content-should-be-expected
Is that what you meant? Because it doesn’t mean “everything can be done as soon as you create your character”. It means that there is fun content for every level. I guess ANet can’t hold themselves responsible for how you interpreted it. To be fair, “Endgame starts at level 1/as soon as you start your character” is open to interpretations, but what the game in fact is since it was released makes it clearer.
Tarnished Coast
Astrid Strongheart, Norn Ranger.
“I wish juvenile wolves were bigger”
Astrid Strongheart, Norn Ranger.
“I wish juvenile wolves were bigger”
If you had the immediate access to everything you would quickly become bored, possibly before you even had time to become familiar with many nuances of the game. Levels serve in many ways, including easing the player into difficulty, creating a sense of progression/discovery, etc. This is one of a reason reasons its easier to burn out on a FPS than an RPG.
this is not true. FPS in modern day, are built on Multiplayer. So new versions of the game get released and players move to the new game, because population dims in older versions as players jump to new editions. There is no burn out there. People play and continue to play.
Look at Madden. same logic. People continue to play and buy it over and over, because they can jump right into the fun from the start.
in MAG, I was motivated to play so I could see my faction improve. and that was a FPS with little to no content updates.
So I would greatly disagree with the logical view you are expressing.
in a MMO with open freedom, players will find what they enjoy. more people would take their time, and explore, since they arent punished by time wasted not on that level grind. in a Level grind game, thats the main thing on my mind before endgame. All I can focus on is gaining exp as quickly as possible so I can unlock that next big trait that allows me to play my class the way I want to. Or to unlock all my action bar slots so I can help my WvW team better. My Guardian’s elite skill is unlocked at 30. So before I was 30, I didnt have access to a great AoE heal skill that was major help to my teammates in big events and WvW.
thats gameplay changing things, from one simple level. Why level 30? Why not level 29, or level 25, or level 10, etc?
the numbers are meaningless, and simply gate. No need for gates in a Subless game… this game has no Sub. Yes it can be argued that Sub based MMOs need time gated timesinks like long level grinds to keep people playing (aka Asian Market) but why here with GW2? GW2 is box sell/Cash shop. No sub based time requirements for playing and funding the game.
You know that ArenaNet toyed with the idea of getting rid of levels completely during the development of GW2, right?
They just weren’t brave enough to follow through.
So now Everquest Next is going to steal that ball and run with it.
Yes I greatly look forward to that as well. Its very appealing. No more illusions in that area. Not knocking the grind lovers out there. There will still be grinds, but not character level kind of grind. I can jump in, and start exploring. I did that in Darkfall, it was fun until gankers messed that up. Most games that give that sort of freedom to play how we want, always have FFAPvP to ruin the fun. so thats why its never caught on IMO. Until developers started moving away from forcing PvP on players looking for free form gameplay.
You know that ArenaNet toyed with the idea of getting rid of levels completely during the development of GW2, right?
They just weren’t brave enough to follow through.
So now Everquest 2 is going to steal that ball and run with it.Ah, but will they do a better job of it than TSW?
IMO what went wrong with the TWS method, is that they still gated the world in a similar way that Levels do in WoW/Everquest1.
Moving away from zone gates in that method, would truly be a next gen feat for themepark MMOs. IMO, MMOs dont need to be sandbox to do these kind of things.
I started playing GW2, sight unseen, and only 3 days later was participating in the Hallowe’en event, including running around the labyrinth fighting nasty bosses at level 80. I wasn’t very good at it, but it was great fun.
Try doing that in any other MMO.
This thread is proof that people will complain about absolutely anything.
Well why not have fun of building your character and going anywhere, and doign any event you discover from day one. imagine how fun it would be to discover events like that from day 1?
And we talking about GW2 I thought.
something like this would have been great for GW2, to move away from traditional Character Level gates like that of Everquest1/WoW.
looking at the ideals behind Guild Wars 1, I figured if they continued there ideas, we would have themepark MMOs without levels by now. GW1’s Anet was tough on the idea that level grind should not be a major part of a RPG, and endgame itself should and will be the main part of the game. worked well. I didnt realize what they meant at first, since I was stuck on the idea that RPGs need levels and long grinds to be fun. I woke up from that illusion.
sad that Anet didnt try waking others up from this illusion as well.
In most MMOs the various zones are level segregated in both directions. Low levels don’t venture into high level zones due to insta-death and high levels don’t venture into low level areas because any critter there is worthless to them.
In GW2 low level characters still don’t venture into high level areas but high levels can play in any zone that’s their level or below and those areas still earn them rewards.
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Anet did indeed say the end game starts at level 1. The question becomes, what does that actually mean. How was it intended. Colin made this quite clear in several interviews and in panels that occurred when Anet was saying it, and it goes back to the manifesto.
In most games you go through the tedious process of leveling up before you can get to the fun good stuff. In most games, when you get to level cap the game changes substantially.
The point Colin made multiple times was that if you enjoy the leveling process why should the game suddenly morph into another game. After all, most people in most MMOs aren’t raiders. Raiders traditionally represent a fairly small (if vocal) part of the population.
He’s saying why change the game. If you enjoy what you do leveling up, why not continue to do it? Why not have big, cool looking encounters like the Shadow Behemoth in a starter zone. You don’t have to be 30th level to participate in that event. That’s what he meant.
Before launch they also talked about Orr as being an end game zone with harder content. It’s not like they lied about this…people either didn’t look deeply enough, or just took the words literally, without actually trying to ascertain what was meant by them.
Anet did indeed say the end game starts at level 1. The question becomes, what does that actually mean. How was it intended. Colin made this quite clear in several interviews and in panels that occurred when Anet was saying it, and it goes back to the manifesto.
In most games you go through the tedious process of leveling up before you can get to the fun good stuff. In most games, when you get to level cap the game changes substantially.
The point Colin made multiple times was that if you enjoy the leveling process why should the game suddenly morph into another game. After all, most people in most MMOs aren’t raiders. Raiders traditionally represent a fairly small (if vocal) part of the population.
He’s saying why change the game. If you enjoy what you do leveling up, why not continue to do it? Why not have big, cool looking encounters like the Shadow Behemoth in a starter zone. You don’t have to be 30th level to participate in that event. That’s what he meant.
Before launch they also talked about Orr as being an end game zone with harder content. It’s not like they lied about this…people either didn’t look deeply enough, or just took the words literally, without actually trying to ascertain what was meant by them.
if that was truly what he meant, than why is there no Hearts in Orr compared to the rest of the lower level areas?
if that was truly what he meant, than why is there no Hearts in Orr compared to the rest of the lower level areas?
Because it is a war-zone instead of a populated zone as the others?
Hearts were also not supposed to be in the game at all from the start, but due to testers having no clue what to do they were added in to assist people getting to areas with DEs and such.
Krall Bloodsword – Mesmer
Krall Peterson – Warrior
Piken Square
Krall Peterson – Warrior
Piken Square
Respectfully, Knighthonor, you’re playing the wrong game. In fact, you’re playing the wrong genre. You should go find some nice action adventure games to play.
again hate when people say this, because Levels wasnt always the Genre.
Playing with others in a world, was define this genre. not levels, since Character level trail didnt become popular until Everquest 1, and made standard from WoW which uses the same system as Everquest 1. those games were popular, but doesnt mean level locking mechanics is a good game design.
Okay, you are obviously trolling. Leveling was a huge part of RPGs well before computer games, and certainly before Everquest. Levels originated in tabletop gaming, and have been adopted by the vast majority of RPGs and MMORPGs have carried them along as a natural progression. I cannot even begin to address any of your other points while you continue to insist that RPGs did not have leveling systems before the late ’90s.
I would almost find this discussion worthwhile and interesting if not for this gaping hole in your credibility.
That being said, you can totally do this by playing in PvP. It’s basically a sandbox mode.
“Be angry about legendary weapons, sure, but what about the recent drought of content?”
-Mike O’Brien
Because we can’t be angry about both?
-Mike O’Brien
Because we can’t be angry about both?
Anet did indeed say the end game starts at level 1. The question becomes, what does that actually mean. How was it intended. Colin made this quite clear in several interviews and in panels that occurred when Anet was saying it, and it goes back to the manifesto.
In most games you go through the tedious process of leveling up before you can get to the fun good stuff. In most games, when you get to level cap the game changes substantially.
The point Colin made multiple times was that if you enjoy the leveling process why should the game suddenly morph into another game. After all, most people in most MMOs aren’t raiders. Raiders traditionally represent a fairly small (if vocal) part of the population.
He’s saying why change the game. If you enjoy what you do leveling up, why not continue to do it? Why not have big, cool looking encounters like the Shadow Behemoth in a starter zone. You don’t have to be 30th level to participate in that event. That’s what he meant.
Before launch they also talked about Orr as being an end game zone with harder content. It’s not like they lied about this…people either didn’t look deeply enough, or just took the words literally, without actually trying to ascertain what was meant by them.
if that was truly what he meant, than why is there no Hearts in Orr compared to the rest of the lower level areas?
Because hearts were meant for one reason and one reason only. To get people to the places where dynamic event were. They were never in the original game at all and they were added very late in the piece.
The reason Anet gave lore wise for not having hearts in Orr is because there are less friendlies in Orr. It’s enemy territory, story wise. But again, the story goes something like this.
A dev was standing next to a test player who ran right by a burning house and the dev asked him why he ran by it, and he said, because I didn’t have a quest to go in there. That’s why hearts were put into the game. They never intended to put hearts in Orr and they won’t be putting them in new content now that people sort of get the dynamic event thing.
Funny, I seem to recall having character levels playing D&D back in the early 1980s, when PC gaming consisted of playing tic-tac-toe.
If I recall correctly, GW2 did not have levels in its alpha stages (could be wrong though). It didn’t have hearts either; however feedback from alpha testers showed that the players wanted those things. They felt ‘lost’ and couldn’t figure out what to do, where to go. They wanted some sort of guide in order to play through the content.
Additionally, yes leveling is a form of VP. It makes the player feel like their character is growing, getting more powerful, etc. People like this. In other games, you still have ‘leveling’ although it might not be denoted as character levels. In other RPGs you level your weapons, giving you a sense of becoming more powerful. It’s the same darn thing – you can’t get to/complete certain areas until your weapons are strong enough…you just well, die. The same happens here. If you go to a zone you aren’t leveled for (and you can), you have a much greater chance of dying. Doesn’t mean you will, just means you’re more likely to.
Don’t look at me like that. Whatever you’ve heard, it’s probably not true.
I do not recall about levels. I can absolutely know when I was playing in alpha ther indeed where no hearts. I also remember reading something along the lines of " feedback from alpha testers showed that the players wanted those things. They felt ‘lost’ and couldn’t figure out what to do, where to go. They wanted some sort of guide in order to play through the content." in dev notes or something as well.
A video on what weak PvPer’s and WvWer’s want.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q3em9s5I4c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q3em9s5I4c
I do not recall about levels. I can absolutely know when I was playing in alpha ther indeed where no hearts. I also remember reading something along the lines of " feedback from alpha testers showed that the players wanted those things. They felt ‘lost’ and couldn’t figure out what to do, where to go. They wanted some sort of guide in order to play through the content." in dev notes or something as well.
Yeah it’s been so long, its hard to recall precisely lol. I know at one point they were all about upscaling as well as downscaling in their sidekicking system. So that players could go anywhere, but they opted not to do the upscaling….which they explained why somewhere. It made sense (to me at least) so I didn’t argue with it.
Don’t look at me like that. Whatever you’ve heard, it’s probably not true.
Respectfully, Knighthonor, you’re playing the wrong game. In fact, you’re playing the wrong genre. You should go find some nice action adventure games to play.
again hate when people say this, because Levels wasnt always the Genre.
Playing with others in a world, was define this genre. not levels, since Character level trail didnt become popular until Everquest 1, and made standard from WoW which uses the same system as Everquest 1. those games were popular, but doesnt mean level locking mechanics is a good game design.
Okay, you are obviously trolling. Leveling was a huge part of RPGs well before computer games, and certainly before Everquest. Levels originated in tabletop gaming, and have been adopted by the vast majority of RPGs and MMORPGs have carried them along as a natural progression.
He’s not trolling, he’s just deluded. Note the points he keeps bringing up in his posts. FPS games. He wants MMO-RPGs to be FPS games with a fantasy skin.
What I don’t is people like him who play games they know they won’t like, and then complain about it. “I hate games with level progression. I’m going to play this game that has level progression. THIS LEVEL PROGRESSION IS STUPID AND THEY SHOULD REMOVE IT.”
The OP looks about as crazy as if I went to the Madden forums and demanded they introduce levels.
“Those who believe a thing cannot be done,
should stay out of the way of those doing it”
- Thomas Edison
should stay out of the way of those doing it”
- Thomas Edison
Perhaps levels do segregate the game world, but you know what? It makes perfect sense here.
Let’s say you are a Human character. Do you really expect on your first day of adventuring to be able to run down to Orr, the stronghold of an Elder Dragon where literally everything is hostile to you, and be all right? No, you stay in Queesndale and hone your technique, eventually traveling to the rest of Kryta.
Yes, leveling does segregate the game world, but what makes less sense? The fact that you can’t go someplace because enemies are too strong for you, or that you should walk into the most hostile place in all of Tyria after just starting out?
UO segregated their world back in the day. If your skills weren’t high enough for some areas, you would be destroyed by the monsters there. Instead of leveling each skill individually to max level, we’ve evolved into leveling the character to max level and the skills/stats automatically increase with your level.
Personally I liked leveling up each individual skill, but that doesn’t change the fact that some areas were literally impossible unless your skills were a certain level, so really what’s the difference? I think most consider UO to be the start of the modern day MMORPG genre so you may want to reconsider your stance, OP, because you sound completely ignorant.
Could you give us some examples of games in the genre that has 100% of the content complete-able by a completely new level 1/starter stats character?
I won’t hold my breath.
I won’t stop because I can’t stop.
It’s a medical condition, they say its terminal….
It’s a medical condition, they say its terminal….
Levels exist in this game to slowly ramp the player up to tougher challenges as they get more acclimated to the combat systems and mechanics of the game. This really isn’t all that tough of a concept.
Can we all agree that the average encounter in Orr is more complex than the average encounter in Queensdale? Do you think you could counter some of the things thrown at you in an average dungeon encounter after having been in game for 4 minutes?
Use some common sense.
EDIT: Adding that if you find leveling in this game a difficult process, maybe these types of games are not for you.
(edited by Zerole.7306)
Respectfully, Knighthonor, you’re playing the wrong game. In fact, you’re playing the wrong genre. You should go find some nice action adventure games to play.
again hate when people say this, because Levels wasnt always the Genre.
Playing with others in a world, was define this genre. not levels, since Character level trail didnt become popular until Everquest 1, and made standard from WoW which uses the same system as Everquest 1. those games were popular, but doesnt mean level locking mechanics is a good game design.
Okay, you are obviously trolling. Leveling was a huge part of RPGs well before computer games, and certainly before Everquest. Levels originated in tabletop gaming, and have been adopted by the vast majority of RPGs and MMORPGs have carried them along as a natural progression.
He’s not trolling, he’s just deluded. Note the points he keeps bringing up in his posts. FPS games. He wants MMO-RPGs to be FPS games with a fantasy skin.
What I don’t is people like him who play games they know they won’t like, and then complain about it. “I hate games with level progression. I’m going to play this game that has level progression. THIS LEVEL PROGRESSION IS STUPID AND THEY SHOULD REMOVE IT.”
The OP looks about as crazy as if I went to the Madden forums and demanded they introduce levels.
It would probably surprise you then that Anet originally conceived of GW2 as a game without level progression. I believe the point being made is simply that there is no inherent need for level progression in the MMO. The OP is not being crazy, just thinking the same thoughts as the Anet devs did before him.
Actually I agree with Guhracie, the level/scaling mechanics in GW2 are one of the top innovations in the game and possibly the best in the whole industry.
One of the only reason why I’m still playing. I definitely hope other games adapt and use this system.
Guild Wars 2 is not a sequel to the original Guild Wars but merely an alternative story setting.
Respectfully, Knighthonor, you’re playing the wrong game. In fact, you’re playing the wrong genre. You should go find some nice action adventure games to play.
again hate when people say this, because Levels wasnt always the Genre.
Playing with others in a world, was define this genre. not levels, since Character level trail didnt become popular until Everquest 1, and made standard from WoW which uses the same system as Everquest 1. those games were popular, but doesnt mean level locking mechanics is a good game design.
Okay, you are obviously trolling. Leveling was a huge part of RPGs well before computer games, and certainly before Everquest. Levels originated in tabletop gaming, and have been adopted by the vast majority of RPGs and MMORPGs have carried them along as a natural progression.
He’s not trolling, he’s just deluded. Note the points he keeps bringing up in his posts. FPS games. He wants MMO-RPGs to be FPS games with a fantasy skin.
What I don’t is people like him who play games they know they won’t like, and then complain about it. “I hate games with level progression. I’m going to play this game that has level progression. THIS LEVEL PROGRESSION IS STUPID AND THEY SHOULD REMOVE IT.”
The OP looks about as crazy as if I went to the Madden forums and demanded they introduce levels.
It would probably surprise you then that Anet originally conceived of GW2 as a game without level progression. I believe the point being made is simply that there is no inherent need for level progression in the MMO. The OP is not being crazy, just thinking the same thoughts as the Anet devs did before him.
I’m pretty sure the Anet devs understand that leveling is a core mechanic in RPGs and existed before Everquest.
“Be angry about legendary weapons, sure, but what about the recent drought of content?”
-Mike O’Brien
Because we can’t be angry about both?
-Mike O’Brien
Because we can’t be angry about both?
Levels segregate the game world.
People cant enjoy the full of the game world without leveling first.
if players take their time, they miss out on all the cool things happening all over the place.
So no point not rushing to max level. but that leads to burnout since the skill/trait system doesnt reward well for leveling between 1-30, 30-40, 40-60, 60-80.
you know you can get to lvl 80 in ONE day through crafting right? costs a bit of gold, but saves tons of time
This is a bad argument both from an economic perspective and from a class experience perspective .
Not everyone is going to have the money to do it which throws it out the window right there and you dont learn your class at all by doing it . Since you never played your class you dont know its weapons what you like about the class or even if you like the class so you could have spend all that money for nothing .That’s not even taking into account the lack of exploration .
The OP is right about 1 thing and that’s burn out . I know when I’m leveling an alt i usually burn out on leveling it around levels 55-60 before i have to go back to something else for a while . That’s something that’s just not fixable at this point either
I can personally see the OPs point.
One of the problems regarding the LS is how newer players cannot do LS arcs in high level zones, thus meaning most LS arcs are forced to include low level areas for achievement completion or scale all players to 80.
I actually think the original scaling system, which allowed players to scale up from any level into any map would actually be beneficial again. Levels should just be a superficial thing to count character progress and nothing more. That way a player joining the game at a important LS arc (after reading about said LS on a MMO website) can jump right into the content without needing to level his character to even stand a chance.
…/snip…
I hate when people say this. when RPGs didnt even have levels at first. Tabletops—>MUDs—->First MMORPGs
again levels wasnt always part of RPGs. so thats not something that can define something that wasnt always part of them.
um… I don’t know what tabletop games you played, but I clearly remember rolling my die and /facepalming in frustration because my little magic user was ONLY level 14…
@ the OP:
You are indeed correct. Levels segregate the player community. Levels also keep new players from killing themselves on content they can’t handle. Levels also give you a sense of direction and yes, a sense of pride. It’s healthy to be happy that you made it to level ______.
For theoretical sake, let’s look at an imaginary game where you would have no levels.
How would one have a sense of progression? How would you determine that a zone was for “end game” capable characters? How would one keep brand new players from content that is so far above them that they would quit in frustration before spending another dime in your game?
The best example of the problems one has with no “levels” exists in the form of WvW.
Anyone who has ever rolled a character and went to WvW at level 2 (the level you are when you finish the beginning tutorial area) would be immediately killed by someone who was at the top of their game with BiS gear. If that were the only thing you were allowed to do as a new character, you would probably quit very quickly thinking that you had no chance against people who have gear/traits/skills much better than yours.
Levels are not necessarily a bad thing. Segregation is not necessarily a bad thing.
So, the answer is yes, you are correct. But, one can be correct and still be wrong.
Level 80 Elementalist
I actually think the original scaling system, which allowed players to scale up from any level into any map would actually be beneficial again. Levels should just be a superficial thing to count character progress and nothing more. That way a player joining the game at a important LS arc (after reading about said LS on a MMO website) can jump right into the content without needing to level his character to even stand a chance.
Except that if the player was truly a new player, they wouldn’t have the skills required to survive the higher level zones; they wouldn’t understand the game well enough to get the hang of dodging and countering abilities.
Most LS arcs are not exclusively in high level areas because of this.
Anet did indeed say the end game starts at level 1. The question becomes, what does that actually mean. How was it intended. Colin made this quite clear in several interviews and in panels that occurred when Anet was saying it, and it goes back to the manifesto.
In most games you go through the tedious process of leveling up before you can get to the fun good stuff. In most games, when you get to level cap the game changes substantially.
The point Colin made multiple times was that if you enjoy the leveling process why should the game suddenly morph into another game. After all, most people in most MMOs aren’t raiders. Raiders traditionally represent a fairly small (if vocal) part of the population.
He’s saying why change the game. If you enjoy what you do leveling up, why not continue to do it? Why not have big, cool looking encounters like the Shadow Behemoth in a starter zone. You don’t have to be 30th level to participate in that event. That’s what he meant.
Before launch they also talked about Orr as being an end game zone with harder content. It’s not like they lied about this…people either didn’t look deeply enough, or just took the words literally, without actually trying to ascertain what was meant by them.
if that was truly what he meant, than why is there no Hearts in Orr compared to the rest of the lower level areas?
Because hearts were meant for one reason and one reason only. To get people to the places where dynamic event were. They were never in the original game at all and they were added very late in the piece.
The reason Anet gave lore wise for not having hearts in Orr is because there are less friendlies in Orr. It’s enemy territory, story wise. But again, the story goes something like this.
A dev was standing next to a test player who ran right by a burning house and the dev asked him why he ran by it, and he said, because I didn’t have a quest to go in there. That’s why hearts were put into the game. They never intended to put hearts in Orr and they won’t be putting them in new content now that people sort of get the dynamic event thing.
Thats the thing. people are very conservative at first to new ideas but get use to it over time. Look at the current game. people settled into the idea of Dynamic Events and the way they function. but at first people didnt understand it. thats all. IMO, hearts were created so that people looking for a fast way to level, wouldnt be stuck hunting down events, which gets ruff trying to hunt events currently, so imagine back in beta when people were new to the game.
But if the game had no levels, this wouldnt be a problem, because that rush mentality wouldnt exist in the first place.
If I recall correctly, GW2 did not have levels in its alpha stages (could be wrong though). It didn’t have hearts either; however feedback from alpha testers showed that the players wanted those things. They felt ‘lost’ and couldn’t figure out what to do, where to go. They wanted some sort of guide in order to play through the content.
Additionally, yes leveling is a form of VP. It makes the player feel like their character is growing, getting more powerful, etc. People like this. In other games, you still have ‘leveling’ although it might not be denoted as character levels. In other RPGs you level your weapons, giving you a sense of becoming more powerful. It’s the same darn thing – you can’t get to/complete certain areas until your weapons are strong enough…you just well, die. The same happens here. If you go to a zone you aren’t leveled for (and you can), you have a much greater chance of dying. Doesn’t mean you will, just means you’re more likely to.
But what ever happen to the appeal of the GW1 concept of less levels and more endgame design? that was a popular part of GW1 if I remember correctly, yet that game still had lots of progression and story. A MMO like GW2 can very well support a system that opens to world and gameplay to all players while still have a visual progression method. I suggested ealier in this thread that the game could still keep levels, but making it only restrict what gear we can put on, like currently. Imagine the current game were you still level up, to put on gear with level requirements on it, but Traits, and Events, and the world isnt level segregated. Just the gear is level segregated. that way you can still see who is a higher level player, and they still would get the better stats and better looking armor and weapons, but the low level players still get full kitten to the gameplay from day one. So when a low level ports to WvW, they can build a build that suits their interest rather than grinding builds that dont interest them just to unlock the fun builds that do.
I do not recall about levels. I can absolutely know when I was playing in alpha ther indeed where no hearts. I also remember reading something along the lines of " feedback from alpha testers showed that the players wanted those things. They felt ‘lost’ and couldn’t figure out what to do, where to go. They wanted some sort of guide in order to play through the content." in dev notes or something as well.
Yeah it’s been so long, its hard to recall precisely lol. I know at one point they were all about upscaling as well as downscaling in their sidekicking system. So that players could go anywhere, but they opted not to do the upscaling….which they explained why somewhere. It made sense (to me at least) so I didn’t argue with it.
But what was the reason, that was reasonable??
Respectfully, Knighthonor, you’re playing the wrong game. In fact, you’re playing the wrong genre. You should go find some nice action adventure games to play.
again hate when people say this, because Levels wasnt always the Genre.
Playing with others in a world, was define this genre. not levels, since Character level trail didnt become popular until Everquest 1, and made standard from WoW which uses the same system as Everquest 1. those games were popular, but doesnt mean level locking mechanics is a good game design.
Okay, you are obviously trolling. Leveling was a huge part of RPGs well before computer games, and certainly before Everquest. Levels originated in tabletop gaming, and have been adopted by the vast majority of RPGs and MMORPGs have carried them along as a natural progression.
He’s not trolling, he’s just deluded. Note the points he keeps bringing up in his posts. FPS games. He wants MMO-RPGs to be FPS games with a fantasy skin.
What I don’t is people like him who play games they know they won’t like, and then complain about it. “I hate games with level progression. I’m going to play this game that has level progression. THIS LEVEL PROGRESSION IS STUPID AND THEY SHOULD REMOVE IT.”
The OP looks about as crazy as if I went to the Madden forums and demanded they introduce levels.
I am not trolling nor delusional.
Somebody at Anet also had the same reason of thought that I did. somebody at Sony also was thinking about this as well. the game becomes fun from day 1 when you have the freedom to make our own fun rather than be told what and what not is fun. levels tell us what we can and cant do, until we do a grind, that some people may or may not enjoy.
Perhaps levels do segregate the game world, but you know what? It makes perfect sense here.
Let’s say you are a Human character. Do you really expect on your first day of adventuring to be able to run down to Orr, the stronghold of an Elder Dragon where literally everything is hostile to you, and be all right? No, you stay in Queesndale and hone your technique, eventually traveling to the rest of Kryta.
Yes, leveling does segregate the game world, but what makes less sense? The fact that you can’t go someplace because enemies are too strong for you, or that you should walk into the most hostile place in all of Tyria after just starting out?
From a roleplaying standpoint I also have to disagree with you. The Soldier trains as he explores and discovers skills on his travel to Orr. that to me is a reasonable way of explaining why we should have the freedom to do so. Not saying that the soldier would be as strong and skilled as those who been fighting in the world longer, but thats the same as real life, still that doesnt limit people in real life from doing things and exploring or even going to war for the safety of their homeland.
now from a gameplay point of view, I also disagree.
A lots of things are hard in the game but not everything. no matter what level you are, its still hard content. Teq for example. So I dont believe Levels should be a reasonable argument for why a low level character can help in higher level events beyond the level mechanics. Levels and Player Skill are two totally different areas.
Levels exist in this game to slowly ramp the player up to tougher challenges as they get more acclimated to the combat systems and mechanics of the game. This really isn’t all that tough of a concept.
Can we all agree that the average encounter in Orr is more complex than the average encounter in Queensdale? Do you think you could counter some of the things thrown at you in an average dungeon encounter after having been in game for 4 minutes?
Use some common sense.
EDIT: Adding that if you find leveling in this game a difficult process, maybe these types of games are not for you.
But in a game like GW2 without levels, would we only need to go to Orr for fun. Why not go to another zone? Orr is the max level zone in the current game with levels. But if the whole game world there for players, they can go anywhere. Not just Orr. they can go to Orr when they feel ready for it. Not when a level tells them they are ready, because not even that been a well done method.
Respectfully, Knighthonor, you’re playing the wrong game. In fact, you’re playing the wrong genre. You should go find some nice action adventure games to play.
again hate when people say this, because Levels wasnt always the Genre.
Playing with others in a world, was define this genre. not levels, since Character level trail didnt become popular until Everquest 1, and made standard from WoW which uses the same system as Everquest 1. those games were popular, but doesnt mean level locking mechanics is a good game design.
Okay, you are obviously trolling. Leveling was a huge part of RPGs well before computer games, and certainly before Everquest. Levels originated in tabletop gaming, and have been adopted by the vast majority of RPGs and MMORPGs have carried them along as a natural progression.
He’s not trolling, he’s just deluded. Note the points he keeps bringing up in his posts. FPS games. He wants MMO-RPGs to be FPS games with a fantasy skin.
What I don’t is people like him who play games they know they won’t like, and then complain about it. “I hate games with level progression. I’m going to play this game that has level progression. THIS LEVEL PROGRESSION IS STUPID AND THEY SHOULD REMOVE IT.”
The OP looks about as crazy as if I went to the Madden forums and demanded they introduce levels.
It would probably surprise you then that Anet originally conceived of GW2 as a game without level progression. I believe the point being made is simply that there is no inherent need for level progression in the MMO. The OP is not being crazy, just thinking the same thoughts as the Anet devs did before him.
Yes totally. Also Sony is thinking about that as well. I enjoy playing GW2, but I would enjoy it more, if I wasnt required to do stuff I didnt enjoy(Level grinding), just so I can unlock what I do enjoy (Build Making/Exploration).
Respectfully, Knighthonor, you’re playing the wrong game. In fact, you’re playing the wrong genre. You should go find some nice action adventure games to play.
again hate when people say this, because Levels wasnt always the Genre.
Playing with others in a world, was define this genre. not levels, since Character level trail didnt become popular until Everquest 1, and made standard from WoW which uses the same system as Everquest 1. those games were popular, but doesnt mean level locking mechanics is a good game design.
Okay, you are obviously trolling. Leveling was a huge part of RPGs well before computer games, and certainly before Everquest. Levels originated in tabletop gaming, and have been adopted by the vast majority of RPGs and MMORPGs have carried them along as a natural progression.
He’s not trolling, he’s just deluded. Note the points he keeps bringing up in his posts. FPS games. He wants MMO-RPGs to be FPS games with a fantasy skin.
What I don’t is people like him who play games they know they won’t like, and then complain about it. “I hate games with level progression. I’m going to play this game that has level progression. THIS LEVEL PROGRESSION IS STUPID AND THEY SHOULD REMOVE IT.”
The OP looks about as crazy as if I went to the Madden forums and demanded they introduce levels.
I am not trolling nor delusional.
Somebody at Anet also had the same reason of thought that I did. somebody at Sony also was thinking about this as well. the game becomes fun from day 1 when you have the freedom to make our own fun rather than be told what and what not is fun. levels tell us what we can and cant do, until we do a grind, that some people may or may not enjoy.
I’m not arguing the fact that Anet may have had this idea to begin with. I’m not even arguing that it’s a bad idea. I cannot even get to those points while you insist that levels are not a core mechanic to RPGs. The only concession I will make to you is that there are, perhaps, some RPGs out there without levels. But, dude, the original RPGs did have levels. Tabletop, MUDs and MMOs alike.
I’m really sorry to belabor the point, here, but I cannot get past this fallacy in your entire argument.
“Be angry about legendary weapons, sure, but what about the recent drought of content?”
-Mike O’Brien
Because we can’t be angry about both?
-Mike O’Brien
Because we can’t be angry about both?