Guild Wars 2

Because people want to level.

I like leveling. I start new characters all the time, because I enjoy leveling them up. It’s not as much fun to ignore all drops unless they are orange or pink, which is what level 80s do.

Just one player’s opinion.

the primary reason is to gate content.

As a game designer, one of our major concerns is not to overwhelm players by letting them do EVERYTHING right off the start while having no idea how. Levels let us give players an idea of what is within their scope.

Levels also allow us to scale the complexity of the game. Intro zones need to be simple for new players (and less so for experienced players trying out classes they have never used before). However, the game would be extremely dull if the mechanics never evolved beyond that. As the player gains knowledge of mechanics, those mechanics can be combined in new ways to create more and more difficult encounters.

Without level as a gate however, it is far more difficult to design one area to be more complex and difficult than others. We can’t be sure if that player in our “end-game” zone has <1h of /played under their belt, or 100h.

I think they originally did cut out levels in the beginning (early alpha), but dropped that concept because leveling adds a sense of progression, which most people like. In a game where leveling truly isn’t needed, people are able to rush the end game on day 1, beat it and then feel like the game is over.

Kartel.2561:

I saw some quote recently (not sure where from) indicating the possibility of tiers of gear “beyond ascended” (and making sure Legendaries are always whatever the BiS is).

This has practically been known long before the game even launched when they said that they would like to eventually increase the level cap.

I enjoy levelling, it’s a very measurable sense of progression. My feelings towards levelling are the equivalent of the feelings a raider would get with new gear or achieving BiS – for me levelling/growing a character is the whole reason I play mmos

There is about 50 levels to many past 30 seems pointless grind for the sake of it. At a lower level cap more room for " end game zones" less burn out also. Blizzard is giving free lvl 90s with it’s next xpac for a reason.

Imo, leveling is far too easy. You shouldn’t be able to craft to 80, you shouldn’t get exp from gathering, you shouldn’t get exp from wvw (outside of ranking) and you shouldn’t be able to switch out your toon out last minute in dungeons. They should also get rid of instant 80 pvp toon. Make ppl work for that.

They need to make character progression harder and more rewarding. After all, MMO’s are about character progression not instant rewards. This is the downfall of GW2 and its what made WoW a terrible game. Anyone can hop into the game and do w/e they want just because they logged on. Garbage. If ppl want instant brain dead rewards they should stick with Xbox fps games.

Zoid.2568:

Because people want to level.

Healix.5819:

I think they originally did cut out levels in the beginning (early alpha), but dropped that concept because leveling adds a sense of progression, which most people like.

These two posters are correct.

Easy. There are two answers to this.

1. To appease the hardcore MMORPG players by giving them a sense of progression.

2. People want to feel like they’re progressing even though they aren’t. Hence the term “Endgame”.

I think most people prefer it nowadays.
And people are used to these amounts of levels.

One thing I liked about GW1 was the overall lack of levels. You could hit level 20 quickly but still had 90% of the game left to explore.

Although levelling in GW2 is relatively painless, I can’t help but feel that a high level cap was put in place for the WoW generation to whom numbers are everything.

Apparently there were no levels in the alpha and it freaked out testers so much that they put them back in. People just can’t handle change I guess.

I’m fine with levels (I like that sense of progression) but they should be tied to individual skills and specializations in the game.

• Level up “wearing light armor” through wearing it
• Level up “wielding an axe” through using it
• Level up “cooking” through cooking
• Level up “healing spell xyz” through healing
  etc.

Along the way, once certain levels are unlocked, you would be able to unlock traits. This process could be time-gated, too, by making certain levels only accessible to players when they talk to a trainer / grandmaster NPC.

So you’d always have something to do, but none of the individual levels would be required to go exploring or take part in dynamic events.

Remove the levelling from this game and if you are a PvEr you can as well quit. -.-

It was originally intended to remove levels entirely, but they eventually moved into a kickback system where you could boost a low level into a higher level. They scrapped the idea and went with downscaling as it would feel to odd for a new player

Pip.2094:

Remove the levelling from this game and if you are a PvEr you can as well quit. -.-

Everquest next has no levels so I guess no pve content there

The game starts at lvl 80, thats true… but I like the character stories.

Levels are there to space out elements in the learning process. Different aspects of the complete Level 80 experience are introduced over time. You get used to having Utility skills before you get your Elite skill. You have time to practice with and experiment with adept level traits before you gain access to master traits, etc.

Nike.2631:

Levels are there to space out elements in the learning process. Different aspects of the complete Level 80 experience are introduced over time. You get used to having Utility skills before you get your Elite skill. You have time to practice with and experiment with adept level traits before you gain access to master traits, etc.

Explain what your doing past 30 you got your skills and elite how the game works by level 10, master traits? Have they gotten better since launch most were crap others no brainers.

Many people in this thread are good examples of what I talked about ..only concerned with watching numbers go up (and then usually complaining about “nothing to do”). That’s the only kind of “progression” they can accept apparently. Horizontal progression is invalid ..why, exactly? But that’s fine. That’s WoW though and countless other games like it, not GW (or at least it didn’t used to be). Anet was so big about how “different” they were going to be from your usual mmo. But when then they turned their back on that and took steps to make it LIKE every other mmo, but in a watered down fashion. I can’t help but wonder if these things were more an Anet decision, or NCSoft.

And again, we have level scaling, which largely negates the effects of vertical progression. So how is that easier to implement and balance than just negating it the more direct route ..not HAVING a bunch of vertical progression? It’s going to a lot of extra trouble to fix a problem that had no reason to be there in the first place. Wouldn’t the personal story at least be a little better if you didn’t keep finding yourself underleveled for it? And if people rush through it asap, then so what? That’s there prerogative and people who feel the need to rush things always find a way.

I don’t buy the time-gating excuse, not in a non-sub game anyway. Look, either people actually like the game for its own merit or they don’t. If their only reason for even being here is watching numbers go up and getting uber powerful, well I think that’s kind of sad, but whatever. There are tons of games for that. Why turn a franchise so many have loved for so long into another one? You say “people like leveling”. Yeah ..there are certain types of people who do, as described above. But not all people! I think this was clearly a bait-and-switch business maneuver. Telling us they’d “keep all the things we liked about GW1”. Anet knew full well that their core fanbase did not like a level grinds, and their low cap was ONE OF THOSE THINGS we liked.

But they, or NC, bowed to the pressure of the WoW-drones I guess. They certainly didn’t do it for their existing fans. So they got a ton of extra initial sales out of it from people who left after a few months or less, while putting an increasing strain on their fanboys to stick up for them. They tried to make a jack-of-all-trades mmo (and master of none). Does this make them proud of themselves? As someone who sticks around for years, not months, and is actually willing to spend money over the long term, I feel like they have betrayed their fans to attract a different audience that doesn’t care about them anyway. I’m in no hurry to go anywhere right now, but that’s more for lack of a proper alternative than GW2 being as great as it was supposed to be (When EQN comes out, that may be a different story, we’ll see).

I still like Anet, but this whole “sell out” (or "it’s ok to lie to our fans so we can trick more people into buying).. This mentality they’ve taken on has definitely made it harder to sing their praises without feeling dirty. I want them to understand that, and invite them to respond.

I LOVE leveling.

Of course there is progression. It is enjoyable to see how much your character has developed when you duck into lowbie events and smash them.

It is all about the journey. Slow down and look out the window sometime, you might notice something interesting.

siralius.9517:

Imo, leveling is far too easy. You shouldn’t be able to craft to 80, you shouldn’t get exp from gathering, you shouldn’t get exp from wvw (outside of ranking) and you shouldn’t be able to switch out your toon out last minute in dungeons. They should also get rid of instant 80 pvp toon. Make ppl work for that.

They need to make character progression harder and more rewarding. After all, MMO’s are about character progression not instant rewards. This is the downfall of GW2 and its what made WoW a terrible game. Anyone can hop into the game and do w/e they want just because they logged on. Garbage. If ppl want instant brain dead rewards they should stick with Xbox fps games.

I haven’t played WoW in almost a decade (since 2005) .. but this statement is dubious at best. Whatever my or your opinion of WoW is, it’s success is undeniable and every company wants a piece of the monetary pie it represents, hence try to copy what it does well.

Back in the days of Asheron’s Call (which you might call the first or second generation, depending on your timeline), you might have liked it. AC had no level cap, it was the endless grind. It was harder to level and the death penalties were ridiculous. Honestly, I think what we have now in the future generations of MMOs is progress.

Don’t misunderstand me, I think the less complicated nature of many console games is eating away at interesting computer games .. however I can’t fault companies for chasing money. The golden age of PC gaming is probably never coming back.

I’m “replaying” GW1 right now (I was 10 the first time I played and never really got out of post-searing Ascalon), and one of the things I actually don’t like about the game is that you’re basically maxed out somewhere around Maguuma Jungle. My armor rating is as high as it’s going to get, most of the skills I can be bothered to farm have been acquired, every rune or insignia that I want is on my armor, and my weapons are pretty darn good. As far as vertical progression goes I was “done” long before I ever got to the final boss and quite honestly I was… kind of bored.

Sure I change my skillbar every now and again based on whether or not the enemies are going to be casting blind every other half second, but the overall strategies I employ never really change. Figure out which target is the biggest problem, zerg it down, and try not to pull too many foes at once. While the content and the story is just interesting enough to keep me playing, I can’t help but feel like I’d be a little more enthusiastic about doing Nightfall and then Eye of the North if I knew that I had much to look forward to in terms of literal character growth.

Because levels always have been and levels are. Anet actually considered not providing the traditional leveling experience but at some point decided against it.

They should not have listened to whoever they were listening to. There is actually no reason for levels in a game and if you are scaling your game horizontally; there is no reason to set a vertical precedent.

The alternative is simply to provide a tutorial that equips a player gear, lore, and gameplay-wise and then launches them into their further adventures. If you are intending to scale your game horizontally, as I would, that’s the way to do it.

Entirely horizontal progression can work in something like Super Mario Bros. where the game revolves around a few basic skills, but for something as time demanding and as in depth as an MMO I really doubt you could ever completely get away from vertical progression for the simple fact that you wouldn’t have enough ways for your game to really get any more challenging if the players only response to anything is “move forward, jump”

MMO’s “WERE” about character progression; leveling the character as well as any of its abilities was the most important part of the game. However, posters are correct when they state that GW2 is just numbers ticking. Indeed, it is. But that is the shortcoming of the game. There is a zero reward system for a zero effort game-play. That does not change the aspect of character progression of the MMO genre. Why? Because that’s what made MMO’s, MMO’s.

Now a days, we have a bunch of weekend warriors/Xbox Call of Duty players who think that MMO’s are for players to just hop on and do anything they want for the half an hour they’re on, to get their fix and hop off. Unfortunately, Dev’s like Anet have been catering to this crowd for some time now because its all about the money. Who can blame them? My gripe with this is it has ruined the MMO experience. I look forward to the first true to the genre MMO that comes out and says, “You want anything in this game, you actually have to play the game. Because the adventure of the game is part of the fun”. Until then, its fail MMO’s with players who think the game should play itself.

We have levels so you can learn your own character and it’s skills. Leave it. Why we need another brainless champ-farmer?

Warkupo.1025:

Entirely horizontal progression can work in something like Super Mario Bros. where the game revolves around a few basic skills, but for something as time demanding and as in depth as an MMO I really doubt you could ever completely get away from vertical progression for the simple fact that you wouldn’t have enough ways for your game to really get any more challenging if the players only response to anything is “move forward, jump”

This isn’t really how people think about this problem, even if they like VP. Here are a couple ideas to bring you up to date with current thought:

They should get rid of scaling, if anything.

No levels or the much lower guild wars 1 level cap would have been infinitely superior. They fought against the expected, common way things were done when they designed the first game, and then backed down and gave in for the sequel. It was disappointing to see them just give in to the status quo, but the milling mass of WoW indoctrinated brain slaves are comforted by the familiar and they decided it was better to go with the popular decision instead of brilliant design like they did with the previous game. This same thing led them to introduce the ascended tier of items. Dollars holler, after all.

Warkupo.1025:

I’m “replaying” GW1 right now (I was 10 the first time I played and never really got out of post-searing Ascalon), and one of the things I actually don’t like about the game is that you’re basically maxed out somewhere around Maguuma Jungle. /snipped

Sounds like you’re doing Prophecies- by far the worst of the GW1 campaigns, especially if playing solo. Assuming you didn’t get a ‘run’ farther ahead then you should be able to get, you shouldn’t have max level armor until after the Crystal Desert and Ascension, so I suspect something is out of whack in your description. Of all the GW1 campaigns, Prophecies was designed the most like traditional MMO’s, and it suffered for it.

Also, you’re only maxed out if all you’re doing is counting numbers. 70% of the skill unlocks in that campaign, and more like 90% of the elite skills, are in Crystal Desert or beyond. The game was really about building a deck of skills to take to pvp with you. The obstrusively long PVE campaign blocking access to those skills was a core design fault.

With Factions (the first expansion), it’s a fault that was fixed. You reached level 20 very fast, and spend the rest of the campaign being pitted against progressively harder missions. It’s not a simple system of time in = progress out, but one that rewards discovery and creativity (or memorizing the wiki, if that was your thing).

You’d be dragging along, wondering how to make your character more powerful in the face of tougher enemies, when suddenly you discover a new skill that synergizes with two of your existing ones. Suddenly, you’re a steamroller rolling through content like mad, looking at encounters in a new way, figuring out how to pick them apart. You start to see new synergies, and try more skill setups. It was very rewarding to explore and experiment and ultimately create a build(s) that was distinctly yours. Gaining levels was incidental, and used mostly to teach you the game mechanics a little at a time instead of opening them all to you at once.

siralius.9517:

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MMO’s “WERE” about character progression; leveling the character as well as any of its abilities was the most important part of the game. However, posters are correct when they state that GW2 is just numbers ticking. Indeed, it is. But that is the shortcoming of the game. There is a zero reward system for a zero effort game-play. That does not change the aspect of character progression of the MMO genre. Why? Because that’s what made MMO’s, MMO’s.

Now a days, we have a bunch of weekend warriors/Xbox Call of Duty players who think that MMO’s are for players to just hop on and do anything they want for the half an hour they’re on, to get their fix and hop off. Unfortunately, Dev’s like Anet have been catering to this crowd for some time now because its all about the money. Who can blame them? My gripe with this is it has ruined the MMO experience. I look forward to the first true to the genre MMO that comes out and says, “You want anything in this game, you actually have to play the game. Because the adventure of the game is part of the fun”. Until then, its fail MMO’s with players who think the game should play itself.

That’s a fine pair of rose-colored glasses you have there.

Nike.2631:

Levels are there to space out elements in the learning process. Different aspects of the complete Level 80 experience are introduced over time. You get used to having Utility skills before you get your Elite skill. You have time to practice with and experiment with adept level traits before you gain access to master traits, etc.

This was the first thing I thought of. It really applies to when you’re changing professions.

WRT the posts similar to “why go to 80 when after x<80, it’s just a time waster”: I play some professions slightly differently 1-30 (typically 1 or 2 skills get way overused because mobs die that fast) than I do starting ~60 thru 80 (when mob HP becomes such that combos are efficient). I dunno if anyone else changes up during that range AND there’s still 30-60 that really are just chunks of dead space; but nonetheless, that’s how level progression usually goes for me.

siralius.9517:

Imo, leveling is far too easy. You shouldn’t be able to craft to 80, you shouldn’t get exp from gathering, you shouldn’t get exp from wvw (outside of ranking) and you shouldn’t be able to switch out your toon out last minute in dungeons. They should also get rid of instant 80 pvp toon. Make ppl work for that.

They need to make character progression harder and more rewarding. After all, MMO’s are about character progression not instant rewards. This is the downfall of GW2 and its what made WoW a terrible game. Anyone can hop into the game and do w/e they want just because they logged on. Garbage. If ppl want instant brain dead rewards they should stick with Xbox fps games.

One opinion – mine is that GW2 woulda just been like every other MMO had this model been agreed upon. What would have been the value proposition for the market had it done all of the above and been no different from the others?

[/quote]That’s a fine pair of rose-colored glasses you have there.[/quote]

Did you use this in the right context? Telling someone they view life/world through rose colored glasses means, the individual, naively, perceives everything as great or is doing okay when it is not. Where in my post did you get this feeling that I wear rose colored glasses? lol.

Leveling served its purpose the first time. The second, third and fourth time it’s just tedious waste of time that gates off content for no reason.

The solution is obvious, allow level 80 characters to invest their spare skillpoints into levels for alts. Just don’t do something stupid like requiring 50 skillpoints for one level.

People with level 80 characters should know well enough that you don’t learn to properly play a class until you’ve unlocked its full potential at maximum level anyway. This way you also still leave the option open to level the normal way, for those that like it.

OK, then – store item to insta-level to 80 for n dollars where n= avg number of days a player with more than one month of play time takes to go 0-80. If it serves no purpose (per the vets), then it won’t hurt the game.

KarateKid.5648:

siralius.9517:

Imo, leveling is far too easy. You shouldn’t be able to craft to 80, you shouldn’t get exp from gathering, you shouldn’t get exp from wvw (outside of ranking) and you shouldn’t be able to switch out your toon out last minute in dungeons. They should also get rid of instant 80 pvp toon. Make ppl work for that.

They need to make character progression harder and more rewarding. After all, MMO’s are about character progression not instant rewards. This is the downfall of GW2 and its what made WoW a terrible game. Anyone can hop into the game and do w/e they want just because they logged on. Garbage. If ppl want instant brain dead rewards they should stick with Xbox fps games.

One opinion – mine is that GW2 woulda just been like every other MMO had this model been agreed upon. What would have been the value proposition for the market had it done all of the above and been no different from the others?

I’ll tell you what. I had no idea GW2 was going for the, “We’re going to be different” marketing angle. Furthermore, I had no idea that their idea of different meant, making a face-roll action rpg w/a bit of MMO elements here and there. To top it off the game is plagued with players who want to make this already faceroll game into a Rockstarr/EA sports first person shooter.

The most common complaint I hear or read about this game is that its BORING. Why? Because its a FACEROLL w/zero, none, zipp in the way of immersion. Why? Because there is zero, none, zipp investment into your character. Why? Because you can FACEROLL to 80 w/zero, none, zipp effort.

I have made 10+ 80s and have deleted half of them. Why? Because I can flip an 80 eating a ham sammich and I got BORED w/the ones I had. Why? Because the game is FACEROLLING to 80.

It’s boring to level because;

1) There are 80 flipping levels. 80. This has the following result → 2.

2) The effect of increasing a level feels meaningless at best. Wow, another skillpoint and a trait... × 70.

The game needed 10 levels max. The first 10 levels introduce a wide array of different mechanics, making them actually feel meaningful. For some classes.

Rangersix.1754:

It’s boring to level because;

1) There are 80 flipping levels. 80. This has the following result -> 2.

2) The effect of increasing a level feels meaningless at best. Wow, another skillpoint and a trait... × 70.

The game needed 10 levels max. The first 10 levels introduce a wide array of different mechanics, making them actually feel meaningful. For some classes.

The effect of increasing a level feels meaningless because Anet did not elaborate on anything in this game. Don’t base or confuse character progression on what Anet has implemented in GW2. Most GW1 players have ZERO knowledge on what an MMO was, is or should be.

siralius.9517:

Most GW1 players have ZERO knowledge on what an MMO was, is or should be.

No, GW1 players are just used to a different kind of MMO.

If there were other level milestones than reaching a new stage of personal story then it might not be so tedious for people. Maybe even a choice of milestone if that’s possible. I can’t think of anything that isn’t skill related but its just a thought.

Rangersix.1754:

siralius.9517:

Most GW1 players have ZERO knowledge on what an MMO was, is or should be.

No, GW1 players are just used to a different kind of MMO.

Sorry to inform you but GW1 was NOT an MMO.

siralius.9517:

Sorry to inform you but GW1 was NOT an MMO.

Why not?

Rangersix.1754:

siralius.9517:

Sorry to inform you but GW1 was NOT an MMO.

Why not?

Ask Anet.

siralius.9517:

Ask Anet.

So you claim that people who played GW1 have no clue what an MMO is, but you can’t say why GW1 isn’t an MMO at the same time. It seems like you simply have a very narrow view on what an MMO is or can be.

Rangersix.1754:

siralius.9517:

Ask Anet.

So you claim that people who played GW1 have no clue what an MMO is, but you can’t say why GW1 isn’t an MMO at the same time. It seems like you simply have a very narrow view on what an MMO is or can be.

I’m not the only one who thinks GW1 was not an MMO. In fact, Anet, itself, said GW1 was not a true MMO. For starters, you played by yourself.

He’s right. Unfortunately. GW1 wasn’t an MMO, because it wasn’t massive. It was fully instanced, except for towns, which were only moderately less instanced. Although it did (IMO, of course) fulfill the same type of gameplay desires as an mmo, so I’d call it close enough for most comparisons to be valid.

siralius.9517:

Did you use this in the right context? Telling someone they view life/world through rose colored glasses means, the individual, naively, perceives everything as great or is doing okay when it is not. Where in my post did you get this feeling that I wear rose colored glasses? lol.

I used it in the context of you viewing past games with them. Like everyone else complaining about “the new generation of gamers”, you don’t seem to have a clue who those gamers are, or what the old games were like.

For one, GW2 has a higher concentration of 25+, post-graduate (or fully employed) players then any other MMO I’ve played. THIS is the reason for the “log in, do some stuff, log out” attitude- we all HAVE JOBS. It kind of puts a limit on the amount of time we can spend on gaming, and when during the day that time is. A desire for being easier is NOT it.

Second, old games were not the amazing thing you think they were. If you want that kind of game, google “Project 1999”. It’s an emulator of Everquest from back in the day. I played there for a month or two due to nostalgia. Remarkably enough, the community there developed exactly the same way the original live one did.
-Top guilds secretly charging RL money for access to raid bosses. Yes, even on an emulation server 15 years later. (Back then there were no instances, so it was possible to monopolize content)
-Other top guilds training nearby raid bosses onto their competitors during their raid. This also happened between regular players that you had annoyed, or were just mean. (back then, mobs did not have a leash)
-RL death threats and harrassment as a result of the above. (EQ was SRZ BSNZ)
-Elitism to a fault, to the point of certain classes being banned from raids or even regular old leveling groups just because they threw off the experience sharing curve. (back then, a 5% difference in exp sharing between group mates could mean hours or days of grinding)

And that’s not even getting to game mechanics- but they are all a RESULT of certain game mechanics that have been deliberately phased out over the years.

To be fair, there are some things we’ve lost:
-difficulty
-sense of risk
-rewards for teamwork

Unfortunately, the mechanics that promoted these things are the very same ones that promoted the divisive, vindictive and elitist behavior described farther up. Noone’s really designed a good system in between yet, so casual focused games is what we get. The gains are worth the price IMO, although I admit sometimes I want the sense of danger and desperation of the old days.

That’s when I go play EVE Online though :P

Rhyse.8179:

siralius.9517:

First off, not going to read this novel.

If you’re too lazy to read, you’re too lazy to play the kind of game you’re asking for.

Yeah, maybe I should go pick up GW1.

“Leveling” in games exists for one simple reason: our brains are wired for it.

Human beings are wired to crave progression or building or creating. Leveling taps into that instinct by doling out little rewards during the game so that you feel like you are accomplishing something. The GW2 Achievement system works in a similar fashion, there’s nothing new about it. GW1 didn’t need it because the gameplay mechanics were interesting enough without it.

Personally, I think it’s just another way for a game company to divert your attention elsewhere so they don’t have to put as much effort into the actual combat mechanics. It’s a giant rat-race folks, and we’re the stars!! -_-