Macros, policies, behavior and obfuscation.

Macros, policies, behavior and obfuscation.

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Posted by: pulsecodesgnl.3470

pulsecodesgnl.3470

So I was reading through some dev posts and I noticed this gem from Gaile.

So according to the link it IS allowed.
“Does this program allow someone to play faster, better, longer, or more accurately than someone who doesn’t use it?” – No.
“Does this program allow someone to ‘play’ when he/she is not at the computer?” – No
“Does this program allow the user to gain undeserved rewards?” – No.
Guild Wars 2 players are permitted to use macros as long as the macros are programmed with a 1 key for 1 function protocol. – It does as it would only spam the “F” key I believe….

I believe you’ve misunderstood if you think this is something we’d condone. How is auto-looting not automating gameplay? How is “spamming” the “F” key still one key for one action? How would use of this not give advantage when compared to the player who is individually picking up loot?
Certainly the “Does it allow the player to play faster?” question can be answered in the affirmative. Does it? Yes. That clearly indicates use of this is not suitable use. Consider carefully before giving credence to one individual’s interpretation of a very clear set of parameters.

So according to Gaile using a macro for auto-looting, opening loot; is considered “playing faster”. I’m sorry, but who in the hell considers looting and opening items playing? Seriously.

I understand it’s a necessary mechanic in the game because items going directly to the player’s bags is a burden on the server resources at the moment, but what “skill” is exactly involved in clicking the loot button hundreds of times, if not thousands?

I mean, should we really be trying to encourage the idea that picking up loot is something an object of ‘playing better’? Loot you have already worked for, earned, and then missed because of clunky game mechanics that can’t handle your rewards because of processing power.

Come on. This is just pedantic. And then to go as far as saying it’s clearly in violation is even more of a joke, the fact is, it’s not clear as not only the quoter misunderstood the rule, but I know a plethora of people that use those macro’s under the same logic. One action, one click. And yes, you can argue repeatable actions, but how exactly is that going to get abused if you allow it? (i.e. Ohnoes, I macro’d a jump so every time I hold down space bar, I jump infinitely, achieving …. absolutely nothing.)

If ANet is really dead set on making “looting” a skill played activity, why give us AoE looting at all? I mean hey, might as well put all loot bags inside a chest where you have to randomly guess a series of numbers (since ANet is so fond of RNG) to unlock it (and earn your reward, yet again).

If AoE looting is any indication of where they’d like to go, this would not be a big deal; and according to the players I know that use them to open the thousands of bags when they are burning karma items, or when running around in WvW in zergs it isn’t.

But based on this post, they are all in ‘ban-worthy’ territory right now.

Just stop this, not only is it not professional, it’s demeaning and when you treat a previous comment as if their response was obviously in the wrong it’s beyond condescending. Yes, Gaile is great for telling people off at times; clearly (yes, sarcasm here is intended) it goes overboard at times.

TL;DR Act professional, don’t hide behind vague rules and subjective interpretations, and be reasonable.

PS: Feel free to scan my account/gameplay data and see if I’ve ever used a macro to try and write off my criticism somehow. Because I haven’t.

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Posted by: Azure Prower.8701

Azure Prower.8701

I mean hey, might as well put all loot bags inside a chest where you have to randomly guess a series of numbers (since ANet is so fond of RNG) to unlock it (and earn your reward, yet again).

Don’t give Anet ideas.

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Posted by: Khisanth.2948

Khisanth.2948

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Posted by: Healix.5819

Healix.5819

If you want to be very strict, everyone has already violated the rules for just running the game. Any anti-virus or firewall will violate multiple rules, including memory reading and intercepting network traffic.

They can’t tell the difference between a macro and a virtual keyboard, so they can’t just ban it. Blanket banning would hit anyone with special buttons, like those found on most mice. The only thing they could really do is look for someone opening thousands of bags per second. If you make a macro to open a bag every ~200-400ms, they’ll never know.

This is entirely different. The guy was asking if it was ok to read the keyboard, not send key presses to the game. Was a pretty silly question, since if doing so was illegal, you wouldn’t be able to use the keyboard outside the game.

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Posted by: anzenketh.3759

anzenketh.3759

It is automation of gameplay. Regardless of how ridiculous or lack of skill it is. Simply automation of gameplay of any type against the rules.

The rules are not just in place to protect against cheating but to also prevent abuse. In this case if too many people do it it would cause a un-needed load on the server.

This is entirely different. The guy was asking if it was ok to read the keyboard, not send key presses to the game. Was a pretty silly question, since if doing so was illegal, you wouldn’t be able to use the keyboard outside the game.

Exactly.

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Posted by: Sepreh.5924

Sepreh.5924

Totally off topic, but I like the use of the word obfuscation

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Posted by: JustTrogdor.7892

JustTrogdor.7892

So according to Gaile using a macro for auto-looting, opening loot; is considered “playing faster”. I’m sorry, but who in the hell considers looting and opening items playing? Seriously.

It’s a game so technically everything you do in game is considered playing.

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Posted by: pulsecodesgnl.3470

pulsecodesgnl.3470

The rules are not just in place to protect against cheating but to also prevent abuse. In this case if too many people do it it would cause a un-needed load on the server.

Prove that, to any degree. That an auto-loot macro would be ANY different than players running around in massive zergs constantly mashing the F key so they don’t miss any loot. At this point that’s a load of crap. Especially since actions are not communicated to the server is there is nothing to send (if that was the case it would be against the ToS to run any kind of program at the same time as GW2).

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Posted by: Olba.5376

Olba.5376

So according to Gaile using a macro for auto-looting, opening loot; is considered “playing faster”. I’m sorry, but who in the hell considers looting and opening items playing? Seriously.

You’re still doing something in their game. That is playing the game.

I understand it’s a necessary mechanic in the game because items going directly to the player’s bags is a burden on the server resources at the moment, but what “skill” is exactly involved in clicking the loot button hundreds of times, if not thousands?

Since when was playing a game a question of “skill”?

If AoE looting is any indication of where they’d like to go, this would not be a big deal; and according to the players I know that use them to open the thousands of bags when they are burning karma items, or when running around in WvW in zergs it isn’t.

They did put a cooldown on the AoE looting. So your indication isn’t necessarily valid when judged in light of the current evidence.

TL;DR Act professional, don’t hide behind vague rules and subjective interpretations, and be reasonable.

They have to be vague and subjective. Otherwise they pretty much end up with a “How To Automate Guild Wars 2” guidebook.

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Posted by: Grimthagen.6019

Grimthagen.6019

Nice strawman argument there.

Gaile said nothing about looting requiring skill, so extrapolating to that point and refuting it is pure fallacy.

Those rules are pretty clear, especially when applied against that example. “Spamming F” is pretty far from “one key = one action”. The quoted person is either willfully misunderstanding or is simply not trying to understand the point.

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Posted by: pulsecodesgnl.3470

pulsecodesgnl.3470

You’re still doing something in their game. That is playing the game.

Since when was playing a game a question of “skill”?

They did put a cooldown on the AoE looting. So your indication isn’t necessarily valid when judged in light of the current evidence.

They have to be vague and subjective. Otherwise they pretty much end up with a “How To Automate Guild Wars 2” guidebook.

First, being hyper-literal gets you nowhere. If ANet is really concerned about who can open bags or pick them up faster than others then they need to get their priorities straight, that was the point, don’t be childish.

When you are talking about getting an ‘edge’ on other players, for when they are playing normally, that is entirely about the skill associated with a part of the game. Again, being hyper-literal is just detracting from the point.

So let us macro AoE-looting with the cooldown in mind. No one said the macro had to activate every single micro second. And if the cooldown is there anyway, it’s not going to matter is it?

No, they don’t have to vague and subjective, that’s a load of bull. Do you think app programmers with the API could get away with ‘vague and suggestive’ rules? No. Cliff is great about putting together specific information. Devon is great about listing specific information associated with WvW that he covers. Precendent has been established, Gaile has no reason to hide behind vague and subjective rules, and beyond that, to use them as obvious signs that someone is in the wrong.

At best that is deception.

Nice strawman argument there.

Gaile said nothing about looting requiring skill, so extrapolating to that point and refuting it is pure fallacy.

Those rules are pretty clear, especially when applied against that example. “Spamming F” is pretty far from “one key = one action”. The quoted person is either willfully misunderstanding or is simply not trying to understand the point.

If the concern is that a macro behaves faster than a normal player can play the game, giving someone an ‘edge’, skill is clearly involved. Stop using pop-“logical fallacy” arguments, especially if you don’t understand basic topic association.

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Posted by: JustTrogdor.7892

JustTrogdor.7892

Why so worked up over something so minor?

The Burninator

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Posted by: pulsecodesgnl.3470

pulsecodesgnl.3470

Why so worked up over something so minor?

Because misinformation and being unnecessarily condescending bugs me? What makes my post any less valid than any other?

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Posted by: JustTrogdor.7892

JustTrogdor.7892

Why so worked up over something so minor?

Because misinformation and being unnecessarily condescending bugs me? What makes my post any less valid than any other?

Did I say anything about less valid? Nope. I just think you seem pretty angry over something very small. Anyway have fun with that. I’m going to login game and do some looting the good old fashion way.

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Posted by: pulsecodesgnl.3470

pulsecodesgnl.3470

Did I say anything about less valid? Nope. I just think you seem pretty angry over something very small. Anyway have fun with that. I’m going to login game and do some looting the good old fashion way.

I am annoyed by these actions, absolutely. I’ve put a lot of time and money into this game, to be concerned over and over again about my account and it’s status because of unclear answers and information. It is rather stressful thinking they could one day change their mind or take action on something you don’t even know you were doing wrong; and lose the hundreds, if not thousands of hours on a game you enjoy. I mean honestly, the majority of people with mice/keyboards that have build-in macro software aren’t even going to view the forums, so how would they know? (Macro’s are just one example, I’ve never used those myself. But I have played around with other things (market gaps and such) that they deemed banworthy afterwards).

And FWIW, I ‘loot the old way’ as well, mainly because I’m too lazy for creating a macro and AoE looting doesn’t work very often for me.

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Posted by: munkiman.3068

munkiman.3068

I use a double click macro to open bags. There’s no way i’m opening 2k bags double clicking 4k times, same thing with tossing crap into the forge (still one click for one action). There’s no advantage to it beyond not exacerbating carpal tunnel syndrome and i would make it repeating, however it seems borderline against the rules… There are also plenty of handi-cap needs for things like this and most of (if not all) is built into the system software.

As far as auto-looting goes, i see no benefit to any player that has a looping macro that hits an auto-loot button. There’s a ton of other things that make sense to be against the rules for macros, but looting or opening stuff, yeah that shouldn’t even be thought about, even in the most vague way.

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Posted by: ExTribble.7108

ExTribble.7108

It is clear. One key = 1 function. Pressing one key that equates to pressing F satisfies this. Pressing one key that spams F some number of times does not, as it’s functioning as pressing F more than once. If you want to (mis)interpret the rules to bend them in your favor, go ahead and take the risk. They’re actually very straightforward if you read them carefully. If it simplifies the matter for you, look at it like this: One keypress = one keypress.

And by the way, the edge does not have to be skill related. If you can open 20 stacks of material bags in (for example) 10 mins with such a macro, how is that not an advantage over someone who has to manually double-click for an hour straight to get the same result? Here’s a clue: it’s an unfair advantage.

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Posted by: pulsecodesgnl.3470

pulsecodesgnl.3470

It is clear. One key = 1 function. Pressing one key that equates to pressing F satisfies this. Pressing one key that spams F some number of times does not, as it’s functioning as pressing F more than once. If you want to (mis)interpret the rules to bend them in your favor, go ahead and take the risk. They’re actually very straightforward if you read them carefully. If it simplifies the matter for you, look at it like this: One keypress = one keypress.

And by the way, the edge does not have to be skill related. If you can open 20 stacks of material bags in (for example) 10 mins with such a macro, how is that not an advantage over someone who has to manually double-click for an hour straight to get the same result? Here’s a clue: it’s an unfair advantage.

Way to ignore the points and run with those red herrings.

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Posted by: zaybug.9284

zaybug.9284

This could be very easily exploited. My ranger can sit in ORR where a single mob spawns and have the pet take the mob down. with the autoloot, I can sit there all night, have my pet do all the killing and reap all the rewards.

How is this not exploiting?

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Posted by: munkiman.3068

munkiman.3068

Adding auto-loot has changed that a bit. Got 5 bodies/bags to loot, either press the loot button once with auto-loot or press it 5 times without it… These things are quality of life things, not advantageous ones. It be nice if they added to the right click menu an open all. Also, there are plenty of games where auto-loot means if somethings drops for you i goes straight into your inventory.

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Posted by: pulsecodesgnl.3470

pulsecodesgnl.3470

This could be very easily exploited. My ranger can sit in ORR where a single mob spawns and have the pet take the mob down. with the autoloot, I can sit there all night, have my pet do all the killing and reap all the rewards.

How is this not exploiting?

… Let’s ignore the fact that afk’ing will time you out. Even if your pet bear attacks. (And assume you put the heal on auto-cast or something).

… Let’s also ignore the fact that in Orr you have to run to the mobs to pick up the loot which would require bot animation.

… Let’s ALSO ignore the fact that no one has any idea what the definition of ‘exploiting’ is anymore.

Clearly, that’s giving you an advantage while you aren’t even playing the game. And it should be a bannable offense (and it is), but to use that as an argument against macros, you would have to use the same logic for banning auto-casting skills, AoE-looting in general, and hell even Rangers. That’s not a very sound argument.

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Posted by: zaybug.9284

zaybug.9284

AOE loot is 900 range, you don’t have to run to nothing

taking damage every 1-2 minutes will stop you from getting logged. as will the system recognizing you hitting the autoloot key

With a macro that would press aoe loot every 2 minutes I could sit in a spot forever.

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Posted by: pulsecodesgnl.3470

pulsecodesgnl.3470

Clearly, that’s giving you an advantage while you aren’t even playing the game. And it should be a bannable offense (and it is), but to use that as an argument against macros, you would have to use the same logic for banning auto-casting skills, AoE-looting in general, and hell even Rangers. That’s not a very sound argument.

*sigh. Please read before posting. Or stop cherry picking if you did.

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Posted by: zaybug.9284

zaybug.9284

Where do you read this as an argument against macros? This is clearly an argument against creating a macro that will repeatedly perform the same action every x seconds

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Posted by: Khisanth.2948

Khisanth.2948

If you want to be very strict, everyone has already violated the rules for just running the game. Any anti-virus or firewall will violate multiple rules, including memory reading and intercepting network traffic.

They can’t tell the difference between a macro and a virtual keyboard, so they can’t just ban it. Blanket banning would hit anyone with special buttons, like those found on most mice. The only thing they could really do is look for someone opening thousands of bags per second. If you make a macro to open a bag every ~200-400ms, they’ll never know.

This is entirely different. The guy was asking if it was ok to read the keyboard, not send key presses to the game. Was a pretty silly question, since if doing so was illegal, you wouldn’t be able to use the keyboard outside the game.

Reading key press for the activation of a particular skill slot for the purpose of providing knowing the exact areas where you can activate the second part. Anyone using that certainly has an advantage over someone who isn’t while using the same skill.

Also, there are plenty of games where auto-loot means if somethings drops for you i goes straight into your inventory.

Based on the datamined info before the feature appeared in the game that style of auto looting was actually hinted at as well. There was a text string indicating that there would be a setting for that. Might still be the case since it sounded like AoE looting was implemented as a last minuted thing.

(edited by Khisanth.2948)

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Posted by: pulsecodesgnl.3470

pulsecodesgnl.3470

Where do you read this as an argument against macros? This is clearly an argument against creating a macro that will repeatedly perform the same action every x seconds

Really again? That still doesn’t change the fact that you arguing for a situation that gives someone an unfair advantage, over … not getting carpal tunnel opening bags. Are you really trying to make those scenarios the same because the same kind of action is used?

That would be like saying anything I can do on TP is fair game because it’s there and in game, as opposed to “repeatable macro’s” that aren’t. (Except ANet disagrees, see godskull and xmas craftables plz.)

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Posted by: penatbater.4710

penatbater.4710

So according to Gaile using a macro for auto-looting, opening loot; is considered “playing faster”. I’m sorry, but who in the hell considers looting and opening items playing? Seriously.

Actually, your complaint is the one that’s pedantic. Any action (or non-action) done in game, I consider playing. And I bet many people share my point of view. One fundamental flaw in that line of reasoning, is that it can very well be replaced with any other word, and then it’s silliness is revealed.
For example:
1.) …who the hell considers chatting playing?
2.) … who the hell considers making artsy guild logo designs playing?
3.) … who the hell considers changing armor colors playing?
4.) … who the hell considers waypointing (and charging for waypoints) playing?

I could go on all day.

Don’t disturb me, I have a cat in me at the moment.

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Posted by: ExTribble.7108

ExTribble.7108

Way to ignore the points and run with those red herrings.

I addressed your points where Arenanet hides behind “vague rules and subjective interpretations” of their rules on macros, of which they do not. They’re under very clear rules. No red herring here, you brought up those points.

Call me whatever, but the occasional slips where professionalism are lacking are often deserved. The person you quoted as an example was basing the validity of the macro on a total (maybe intentional) misinterpretation of the rules. People like that should be told they’re wrong, and forcefully so they don’t potentially lead others into breaking rules based on false interpretations.

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Posted by: defrule.7236

defrule.7236

If ArenaNet want to enforce the one skill for one action rule then their own auto-attack system is a breach of their own terms.

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Posted by: pulsecodesgnl.3470

pulsecodesgnl.3470

Actually, your complaint is the one that’s pedantic. Any action (or non-action) done in game, I consider playing. And I bet many people share my point of view. One fundamental flaw in that line of reasoning, is that it can very well be replaced with any other word, and then it’s silliness is revealed.
For example:
1.) …who the hell considers chatting playing?
2.) … who the hell considers making artsy guild logo designs playing?
3.) … who the hell considers changing armor colors playing?
4.) … who the hell considers waypointing (and charging for waypoints) playing?

I could go on all day.

So you cherry picked a single sentence as if that was the entire argument and ran with it? Bravo.

If you really couldn’t have caught the point in that statement, I’m not sure it’s worth debating it with you. Are you even really trying to? Or you are just trying to invalidate my post without response?

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Posted by: munkiman.3068

munkiman.3068

Or ignore the DR that kicks in after 30 minutes, killing one guy over and over isn’t going to yield anything. More than likely with the roaming mobs you’d be dead after 30 minutes anyway without a bot macro.

We can draw squiggly lines all day about this stuff, but it’s really a QoL issue not an exploiting one.

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Posted by: penatbater.4710

penatbater.4710

So you cherry picked a single sentence as if that was the entire argument and ran with it? Bravo.

If you really couldn’t have caught the point in that statement, I’m not sure it’s worth debating it with you. Are you even really trying to? Or you are just trying to invalidate my post without response?

You spent the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th paragraphs complaining about the intricacies or principles behind looting and its game aspect, and spent the 4th and 7th complaining about the real reason behind this thread. Note that I only answered those portions, because your original complaint hinged on that very premise. I responded to that point initially because I felt it is beyond stupid to consider an action (or non-action) done in-game (or in forums) not to be considered part of that game’s gameplay.

In that light, I do tend to agree that the way Grey responded was a unprofessional. However, I do not feel it is vague or unclear. I cannot pinpoint the exact post, but I distinctly remember when players were asking if so and so is considered an exploit, the anet response was that if you feel you derive some sort of advantage over another player who either does not use it or cannot use it, then it could be exploitable. But that’s another matter I do not really wish to discuss (as it would require extensive knowledge of exploit cases handled by anet and their response), not to mention the vast gray area it’s implications in wvw.

In a human aspect, I would understand her frustration when players try to be as pedantic as possible with regards to the rules, as if to look for a legal loophole for them to exploit. Clearly, it goes against the philosophy of GW2 to create a fair and fun game for everyone.

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Posted by: pulsecodesgnl.3470

pulsecodesgnl.3470

No, the entire argument did not hinge on whether “looting bags” was considered a part of “playing”. The entire argument was how vague, incorrect, and quite frankly, stupid the response was, and the precedents that it set. I’m sorry you couldn’t garner that from my phrasing that was both sarcastic and satirical at times, but I promise, that was the implication.

How exactly, does being able to open hundreds/thousands of bag, or picking up bags on the ground make it not fair, or not fun for anyone else? It’s a QoL improvement ANet should have thought of well in advance if they didn’t want these kinds of actions taken.

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Posted by: Smooth Penguin.5294

Smooth Penguin.5294

Seems this concept is quite difficult for some to understand. I’ll try to make it as simple and clear as possible: One action = one keystroke.

The reason why Anet employees “beat around the bush” is because situations are different. If they were to give a straight yes or no to something, someone else might misinterpret it and try to apply or twist Anet’s words to fit their thoughts.

In the example of macroing the process of looting, picking up loot constantly by pressing a single button once (automation) is against the rules. But since they added the AOE loot feature, now there’s no excuse for using such a program.

By the way, complaining that the built in auto-attack feature break Anet’s own rules, that’s beyond silly. It’s like saying the government doesn’t follow it’s own Constitution.

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Posted by: Clark Skinner.4902

Clark Skinner.4902

What is the difference between a macro button pressing F once a second and a finger pressing F once per second? Neither will get more loot than the other. Neither gives an advantage.

The only thing changed is less strain on the hand, which is healthier.

Macros, policies, behavior and obfuscation.

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Posted by: Smooth Penguin.5294

Smooth Penguin.5294

What is the difference between a macro button pressing F once a second and a finger pressing F once per second? Neither will get more loot than the other. Neither gives an advantage.

The only thing changed is less strain on the hand, which is healthier.

Difference is, if you automate the clicking, you are getting an unfair advantage over people who have to manually click.

If you need to spam click to open bags or activate items in your inventory (i.e. alcohol for drinking title), you need to click through it like the rest of us. Otherwise, enjoy your timeout if you get caught.

In GW2, Trading Post plays you!

Macros, policies, behavior and obfuscation.

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Posted by: IceBlink.4317

IceBlink.4317

My mouse has a button where if you hold it down, it automatically clicks the left mouse button until I take the finger off it. However, I tested the speed of that button vs me left clicking for one minute on a click button website, and I beat my mouse by like 10 clicks, haha.

Seeing as I can click faster than my mouse, I just use the extra button for selling and buying stuff. We really need an “open all” command and a “buy x amount” command from vendors as well.

Macros, policies, behavior and obfuscation.

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Posted by: Clark Skinner.4902

Clark Skinner.4902

What is the difference between a macro button pressing F once a second and a finger pressing F once per second? Neither will get more loot than the other. Neither gives an advantage.

The only thing changed is less strain on the hand, which is healthier.

Difference is, if you automate the clicking, you are getting an unfair advantage over people who have to manually click.

It’s not an advantage over anyone else. The people pressing manually can get just as much. If gaming comfortably is cheating, then so is sitting with ergonomic posture, using mice & keyboards that are more comfortable, and using a larger monitor. They allow you to play longer without getting strained, and that is an unfair advantage, no? Not to mention gaming mice and gamepads that have extra programmable buttons so your fingers don’t need to travel as far to reach extra keys (more finger work = disadvantage). If reducing finger strain is a crime, everyone but the most uncomfortable player is gaining an unfair advantage over him or her, and should be banned.