Guild Wars 2

A few people have questioned my clarification of the manifesto. I found this thread about it in Guru. Now, the link to the clarification doesn’t work, but the comments about it are still there.

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/5727-arenanet-mmo-manifesto-reactions-arenanet-blog/

This includes people talking about how Ree was talking about the personal story.

http://amd-icbm.com/icbm/anet-blog-mmo-manifesto-reactions/

Partial interview

TL:DR – When they were talking about bosses not returning 10 mins later, they were referring to Personal Story bosses.

I felt I had to post this because people expressed doubt, said I was making stuff up, never posted a quote. I don’t really want to have to go back and research stuff that was around years ago. Because it’s all ridiculous anyway.

Two years in the life of development of a game is ages. Things WILL change. But the intent and wording of the manifesto….and everything Anet said around that time…I remember that stuff. It wasn’t one little document and a couple of paragraphs. There were months of conversations and clarifications and dialogue. They weren’t all called clarifications, but they all clarified.

Each time a new bit of information came out…it was analyzed to death. All this stuff people are questioning now was explained again and again. It’s easy to look back to 3 years ago and claim that document doesn’t mean what I say it means.

But it wasn’t just the document I depended on for my information. People didn’t believe me, so I took the time to find that thread, if nothing else.

Maybe people will stop saying that I’m inventing stuff now.

Vayne, stop inventing stuff.

/tease

People never believe you until you bring down the fury of the heavens onto them to show them the light. Then they just turn their backs to the light of truth.

One year after release and people still bring this manifesto discussion up?

Everyone with half a brain should’ve realized at least by now, that it was just PR, a big whoop whoop commercial, nothing less, nothing more.

Please stop resurrecting this manifesto crap over and over again.

And yes..I agree, this is ridicolous.

The manifesto is the Word of God for some people.

CobaltSixty.1542:

The manifesto is the Word of God for some people.

Indeed

CobaltSixty.1542:

The manifesto is the Word of God for some people.

God can change his mid, Anet can not.

Vayne, people like to push others’ buttons and watch the fireworks that result. You have a big red button labeled “Manifesto is a lie” which people love to push because it always gets a reaction.

The people who do this already know everything you have told them – they’ve heard it time and again. It’s not that they don’t believe you, they just don’t care about what Anet devs said years ago vs. what has happened since. They just want to see you get upset.

When I see someone use the word “manifesto” in their statements, I know the person is either trolling or has already made their mind up about the issue and is not open to discussion. So I ignore the post because there simply is nothing that can be done except blindly agree “Anet bad” because that’s the only response he will accept.

If you enjoy arguing with a wall, then keep responding to people who have negative opinions regarding the manifesto. Otherwise, just let it go.

tolunart.2095:

Vayne, people like to push others’ buttons and watch the fireworks that result. You have a big red button labeled “Manifesto is a lie” which people love to push because it always gets a reaction.

The people who do this already know everything you have told them – they’ve heard it time and again. It’s not that they don’t believe you, they just don’t care about what Anet devs said years ago vs. what has happened since. They just want to see you get upset.

When I see someone use the word “manifesto” in their statements, I know the person is either trolling or has already made their mind up about the issue and is not open to discussion. So I ignore the post because there simply is nothing that can be done except blindly agree “Anet bad” because that’s the only response he will accept.

If you enjoy arguing with a wall, then keep responding to people who have negative opinions regarding the manifesto. Otherwise, just let it go.

Oh, I’m well aware people are “winding me up” as we say downunder. And I don’t have a problem with it.

But when my integrity gets called into question, I defend that, because those who aren’t winding me up are still reading. This post was sort of to put the whole thing to bed.

Now, when someone says this information didn’t exist, I can show that it did.

It doesn’t bother me that some people target me, not even a little. I find it entertaining that they feel compelled to do so.

TheDaiBish.9735:

http://amd-icbm.com/icbm/anet-blog-mmo-manifesto-reactions/

Partial interview

TL:DR – When they were talking about bosses not returning 10 mins later, they were referring to Personal Story bosses.

Which makes their point pointless because there are plenty of other games out there where storyline bosses don’t respawn either. Somthing called instancing, which is how it’s done in GW2 and also in many other games. No wonder people read more into it since they were being all excited about an exciting new thing, which was in fact already commonplace in newer games.

Gehenna.3625:

TheDaiBish.9735:

http://amd-icbm.com/icbm/anet-blog-mmo-manifesto-reactions/

Partial interview

TL:DR – When they were talking about bosses not returning 10 mins later, they were referring to Personal Story bosses.

Which makes their point pointless because there are plenty of other games out there where storyline bosses don’t respawn either. Somthing called instancing, which is how it’s done in GW2 and also in many other games. No wonder people read more into it since they were being all excited about an exciting new thing, which was in fact already commonplace in newer games.

It’s not pointless, you’re simply missing the point.

First of all we’re talking MMOs, not single player games. And when this was made, there was no MMO that gave you a PERSONAL story. What does that mean?

In WoW, a human warrior is a human warrior. All human warriors start in the same place and run through the same quests. You’re not a poor human warrior or a rich one. You don’t have a personal story. All MMOs have stories. Not all of them have YOUR story. It’s pretty simple.

The only other MMO I know that has a personal story is SWToR, and of course, that’s Bioware’s strong suit. MMOs, however, weren’t, as shown by the rapid decline of that game and half the staff being laid off.

The point is, when the manifesto was created, no MMO that was out had a personal story built into it. Anet had every reason to talk about it (whether you like the personal story or not).

Vayne.8563:

But when my integrity gets called into question, I defend that, because those who aren’t winding me up are still reading. This post was sort of to put the whole thing to bed.

Now, when someone says this information didn’t exist, I can show that it did.

When someone makes a claim, and makes that claim over and over, and then doesn’t produce the evidence to back up that claim, people will call that person on it. You expected to be exempt from this?

Vayne.8563:

It doesn’t bother me that some people target me, not even a little. I find it entertaining that they feel compelled to do so.

You still haven’t produced the actual clarification post – which is not, I feel obliged to point out, the same as saying such a post did not exist – just that you haven’t produced the actual clarification post. I’m sure many people here would prefer to read it for themselves, right here and right now, as opposed to sifting through what a few random people on some other site had to say about it way back when, or, more to the point, taking your word for what it does or does not clarify.

Tachenon.5270:

Vayne.8563:

But when my integrity gets called into question, I defend that, because those who aren’t winding me up are still reading. This post was sort of to put the whole thing to bed.

Now, when someone says this information didn’t exist, I can show that it did.

When someone makes a claim, and makes that claim over and over, and then doen’t produce the evidence to back up that claim, people will call that person on it. You expected to be exempt from this?

Vayne.8563:

It doesn’t bother me that some people target me, not even a little. I find it entertaining that they feel compelled to do so.

You still haven’t produced the actual clarification post – which is not, I feel obliged to point out, the same as saying such a post did not exist – just that you haven’t produced the actual clarification post. I’m sure many people here would prefer to read it for themselves, right here and right now, as opposed to sifting through what a few random people on some other site had to say about it way back when, or, more to the point, taking your word for what it does or does not clarify.

The post no longer exists…the entire old blog was migrated and some of the stuff never made it over. The posts were dated and when the new blog site went online, those posts didn’t appear. I can’t produce a post that doesn’t exist that I didn’t save, so people can want what they want. It’s not relevant.

I didn’t go back in time and create an old guru thread talking about a clarification. Any reasonable person will see from this that at that time that clarification existed and during that time, people talked about it, and it did in fact say what I said it say, certainly in regards to Ree talking about personal stories. If the clarification didn’t state that, then someone would have contradicted the people who said it.

I don’t have a time machine. I can’t time travel. If you want to believe that the clarification didn’t exist, that’s on you.

But it did exist and most reasonable people will accept the quote thread as evidence of it.

Vayne.8563:

Tachenon.5270:

Vayne.8563:

But when my integrity gets called into question, I defend that, because those who aren’t winding me up are still reading. This post was sort of to put the whole thing to bed.

Now, when someone says this information didn’t exist, I can show that it did.

When someone makes a claim, and makes that claim over and over, and then doen’t produce the evidence to back up that claim, people will call that person on it. You expected to be exempt from this?

Vayne.8563:

It doesn’t bother me that some people target me, not even a little. I find it entertaining that they feel compelled to do so.

You still haven’t produced the actual clarification post – which is not, I feel obliged to point out, the same as saying such a post did not exist – just that you haven’t produced the actual clarification post. I’m sure many people here would prefer to read it for themselves, right here and right now, as opposed to sifting through what a few random people on some other site had to say about it way back when, or, more to the point, taking your word for what it does or does not clarify.

The post no longer exists…the entire old blog was migrated and some of the stuff never made it over. The posts were dated and when the new blog site went online, those posts didn’t appear. I can’t produce a post that doesn’t exist that I didn’t save, so people can want what they want. It’s not relevant.

I didn’t go back in time and create an old guru thread talking about a clarification. Any reasonable person will see from this that at that time that clarification existed and during that time, people talked about it, and it did in fact say what I said it say, certainly in regards to Ree talking about personal stories. If the clarification didn’t state that, then someone would have contradicted the people who said it.

I don’t have a time machine. I can’t time travel. If you want to believe that the clarification didn’t exist, that’s on you.

But it did exist and most reasonable people will accept the quote thread as evidence of it.

I never ask this, but at this point I feel compelled to do so: did you even read what I wrote?

If you know where to look, it does, actually, exist. (Uses mentioned time machine.)

Here you go, those that want to read it for yourselves:

http://web.archive.org/web/20130201031636/http://www.arena.net/blog/mmo-manifesto-reactions

Tachenon.5270:

Vayne.8563:

Tachenon.5270:

Vayne.8563:

But when my integrity gets called into question, I defend that, because those who aren’t winding me up are still reading. This post was sort of to put the whole thing to bed.

Now, when someone says this information didn’t exist, I can show that it did.

When someone makes a claim, and makes that claim over and over, and then doen’t produce the evidence to back up that claim, people will call that person on it. You expected to be exempt from this?

Vayne.8563:

It doesn’t bother me that some people target me, not even a little. I find it entertaining that they feel compelled to do so.

You still haven’t produced the actual clarification post – which is not, I feel obliged to point out, the same as saying such a post did not exist – just that you haven’t produced the actual clarification post. I’m sure many people here would prefer to read it for themselves, right here and right now, as opposed to sifting through what a few random people on some other site had to say about it way back when, or, more to the point, taking your word for what it does or does not clarify.

The post no longer exists…the entire old blog was migrated and some of the stuff never made it over. The posts were dated and when the new blog site went online, those posts didn’t appear. I can’t produce a post that doesn’t exist that I didn’t save, so people can want what they want. It’s not relevant.

I didn’t go back in time and create an old guru thread talking about a clarification. Any reasonable person will see from this that at that time that clarification existed and during that time, people talked about it, and it did in fact say what I said it say, certainly in regards to Ree talking about personal stories. If the clarification didn’t state that, then someone would have contradicted the people who said it.

I don’t have a time machine. I can’t time travel. If you want to believe that the clarification didn’t exist, that’s on you.

But it did exist and most reasonable people will accept the quote thread as evidence of it.

I never ask this, but at this point I feel compelled to do so: did you even read what I wrote?

I read exactly what you wrote.

I produced the only thing that I could find (without spending hours at my computer hunting it down), mostly to verify that it existed and to show that some of the stuff I said about it is actually mentioned in the comments.

What people want or don’t want isn’t really my problem. I don’t work for them. I

I found something that verified, at least circumstantially that what I said was true. People based on this can accept it or not, but I’m not willing to devote more time to the search.

In theory, if it’s not online, even if I had the original text from it, someone would just say I was making it up.

Vayne.8563:

I read exactly what you wrote.

Did you? Excellent. Well, then. When you say that you don’t have a time machine, I’m perfectly willing to take your word for that. No evidence necessary.

You all do know the manifesto was written over a year ago right? Funny that people keep forgetting that.

No Walking.6349:

You all do know the manifesto was written over a year ago right? Funny that people keep forgetting that.

Try “over three years ago.”

Guild Wars 2 Design Manifesto
by Mike O’Brien on April 27, 2010

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/guild-wars-2-design-manifesto/

If you read this blog, it’s easy to theorize that the GW2 Manifesto was a hype-generator, and/or that ANet has amended its intent with regard to the work-in-progress that is GW2 based on circumstances.

Take this part:

“The original GW featured a CCG-like skill system that allowed each player to discover unique combos and new strategies. Theoretically every Elementalist in the game could approach combat with a different strategy. In fact players found thousands of interesting strategies over the years, most of which our designers never anticipated, which is always the sign of a flexible system.

GW2 shares this flexible skill system. The big difference is that now skills are much more visual in explaining what they do. The process of actually discovering combos, or understanding them when they’re used against you, is a lot more clear, because you can visually see how skills combo with each other. An Elementalist can cast Fire Wall next to an opponent, and then switch to Water attunement, which freezes all enemies around him. Using the concussive force of Water Trident, he can slam his frozen enemy into the Fire Wall, leaving him to roast in the flames."

I’m sure you’d find a lot of agreement that the GW2 combo system is nowhere near as deep as GW skill synergies, or that there is much less flexibility in GW2 than in GW. What we don’t know is whether the skill and combo system in GW2 was envisioned to be deeper and more fulfilling than it is but the realities of preparing for launch caused modification — or whether this paragraph in the blog was just more hype.

I think the problem is that people viewed the manifesto as a “mission statement” as opposed to a marketing document. In fact it was only a marketing document. And as such, it’s misleading.

Saying that bosses shouldn’t reappear every 10 minutes and then saying that only applies to story missions is like a store saying that it doesn’t price gouge because 10% of the goods are reasonably priced.

I’m not saying that bosses can or should have a long timer, because this is an MMO and frankly I don’t think that would work. But the simple fact remains that the statement, on it’s face, is misleading.

And there will be forum posts about it forever because of this.

Vayne.8563:

First of all we’re talking MMOs, not single player games. And when this was made, there was no MMO that gave you a PERSONAL story.

Weird… its like that entire year I was playing Star Wars: The Old Republic before GW2 came out never happened. And I’m sure Bioware hadn’t been blathering about it for 5 years prior to that.

Vayne.8563:

Gehenna.3625:

TheDaiBish.9735:

http://amd-icbm.com/icbm/anet-blog-mmo-manifesto-reactions/

Partial interview

TL:DR – When they were talking about bosses not returning 10 mins later, they were referring to Personal Story bosses.

Which makes their point pointless because there are plenty of other games out there where storyline bosses don’t respawn either. Somthing called instancing, which is how it’s done in GW2 and also in many other games. No wonder people read more into it since they were being all excited about an exciting new thing, which was in fact already commonplace in newer games.

It’s not pointless, you’re simply missing the point.

First of all we’re talking MMOs, not single player games. And when this was made, there was no MMO that gave you a PERSONAL story. What does that mean?

In WoW, a human warrior is a human warrior. All human warriors start in the same place and run through the same quests. You’re not a poor human warrior or a rich one. You don’t have a personal story. All MMOs have stories. Not all of them have YOUR story. It’s pretty simple.

The only other MMO I know that has a personal story is SWToR, and of course, that’s Bioware’s strong suit. MMOs, however, weren’t, as shown by the rapid decline of that game and half the staff being laid off.

The point is, when the manifesto was created, no MMO that was out had a personal story built into it. Anet had every reason to talk about it (whether you like the personal story or not).

You write that no other game at the time, except SWTOR had personal stories. I have no exact numbers to contradict this but as you didn’t give any evidence so I will ignore those statements in my reply.

Right, so you created this thread about 1 short sentence out of a 6 minute video in order to point out that this part was explained later (we will just have to believe the replies in that thread I guess) and therefore this one point is valid and is very significant I guess…

Significant because Anet were excited about instancing story missions like they did in GW1 years before themselves and spoke about it in their manifest and made it look like it was something new and innovative all because basically WoW didn’t do that before?

Sounds more like a stab at WoW than actually exciting innovation, especially considering they did it for years in GW1. Guess it’s amazing innovation because GW1 didn’t have a persistent world and therefore it doesn’t count?

Right.

But ok, personalised stories were not common in MMOs. I can see that point. Guess I just wish you hadn’t called this thread manifesto clarification.

Maybe “a clarification about a single sentence in the manifesto” would have been better. Perhaps you should work for Anet’s PR department….

Nike.2631:

Vayne.8563:

First of all we’re talking MMOs, not single player games. And when this was made, there was no MMO that gave you a PERSONAL story.

Weird… its like that entire year I was playing Star Wars: The Old Republic before GW2 came out never happened. And I’m sure Bioware hadn’t been blathering about it for 5 years prior to that.

Star Wars was released 2011-2012 while the manifesto was released 2010.

Chicho Gosho.6507:

Nike.2631:

Vayne.8563:

First of all we’re talking MMOs, not single player games. And when this was made, there was no MMO that gave you a PERSONAL story.

Weird… its like that entire year I was playing Star Wars: The Old Republic before GW2 came out never happened. And I’m sure Bioware hadn’t been blathering about it for 5 years prior to that.

Star Wars was released 2011-2012 while the manifesto was released 2010.

The personal story in SWTOR was known about well before 2010.

Fernling.1729:

Chicho Gosho.6507:

Nike.2631:

Vayne.8563:

First of all we’re talking MMOs, not single player games. And when this was made, there was no MMO that gave you a PERSONAL story.

Weird… its like that entire year I was playing Star Wars: The Old Republic before GW2 came out never happened. And I’m sure Bioware hadn’t been blathering about it for 5 years prior to that.

Star Wars was released 2011-2012 while the manifesto was released 2010.

The personal story in SWTOR was known about well before 2010.

And it went a lot further than GW2, so nothing to brag about really for Anet.

Ah, so all that cool stuff referred to the personal story.

That’s great. Where is this awesome personal story? I saw a pile of trash that was passing itself off as one in game, but I doubt anyone with any appreciation of art or gameplay would consider that more than 25% complete. I thought that was just Trahearne’s story?

No Walking.6349:

You all do know the manifesto was written over a year ago right? Funny that people keep forgetting that.

It’s about three years now.

TooBz.3065:

I think the problem is that people viewed the manifesto as a “mission statement” as opposed to a marketing document. In fact it was only a marketing document. And as such, it’s misleading.

Saying that bosses shouldn’t reappear every 10 minutes and then saying that only applies to story missions is like a store saying that it doesn’t price gouge because 10% of the goods are reasonably priced.

I’m not saying that bosses can or should have a long timer, because this is an MMO and frankly I don’t think that would work. But the simple fact remains that the statement, on it’s face, is misleading.

And there will be forum posts about it forever because of this.

Actually no, they never said the bosses wouldn’t appear every ten minutes in the open world. Giving people stuff to do > than being “realistic”.

Nike.2631:

Vayne.8563:

First of all we’re talking MMOs, not single player games. And when this was made, there was no MMO that gave you a PERSONAL story.

Weird… its like that entire year I was playing Star Wars: The Old Republic before GW2 came out never happened. And I’m sure Bioware hadn’t been blathering about it for 5 years prior to that.

I’m relatively sure Guild Wars 2 planned their personal story as a feature at or around the time that SWToR was planning theirs. After all, it’s only a small step up from what Guild Wars did in Guild Wars 1. They even had a dungeon in Guild Wars 1 that changed based on which NPC you talked to to start it.

When the manifesto hit Guild Wars 2 already had planned their personal story. It was one of the things they planned early on, long before SWToR was talking about it.

And in reality it’s not a hard thing to come up with. Single player adventures games have existed for years. Saying that Star Wars would have a personal story when it came out a couple of years after the manifesto is no reason for Anet not to talk about it.

Anyway, the Star Wars personal story, better done though it probably is, still is meaningless. You can be good or bad in Star Wars but I’ve often heard the complaint that the personal story means absolutely nothing in that game.

ArchonWing.9480:

Ah, so all that cool stuff referred to the personal story.

That’s great. Where is this awesome personal story? I saw a pile of trash that was passing itself off as one in game, but I doubt anyone with any appreciation of art or gameplay would consider that more than 25% complete. I thought that was just Trahearne’s story?

This has nothing to do with whether you like or don’t like the personal story. That’s another issue entirely. People are saying the manifesto lied when it said certain things and to avoid misunderstanding at that time, Anet clarified it. Whether you like what they did or not is fine. I don’t care. What I do care about it people deliberately misinterpreting something to prove some sort of non-existent point.

You didn’t like the personal story. Okay. Doesn’t change the fact that it’s a personal story. And some people did like it.

My own experience is that personal stories were uneven. An no, I didn’t have the problems with Trahearne that most people did.

Nike.2631:

Vayne.8563:

First of all we’re talking MMOs, not single player games. And when this was made, there was no MMO that gave you a PERSONAL story.

Weird… its like that entire year I was playing Star Wars: The Old Republic before GW2 came out never happened. And I’m sure Bioware hadn’t been blathering about it for 5 years prior to that.

But you weren’t playing Star Wars 2 when the manifesto hit, or the year after that, or even most of the year after that. So Anet devoted less than 1 minute of time to tell you how Guild Wars 2 would different from other MMOs people were familiar with at that time and you think that’s somehow wrong?

I’m not even sure what to say about that.

Gehenna.3625:

Fernling.1729:

Chicho Gosho.6507:

Nike.2631:

Vayne.8563:

First of all we’re talking MMOs, not single player games. And when this was made, there was no MMO that gave you a PERSONAL story.

Weird… its like that entire year I was playing Star Wars: The Old Republic before GW2 came out never happened. And I’m sure Bioware hadn’t been blathering about it for 5 years prior to that.

Star Wars was released 2011-2012 while the manifesto was released 2010.

The personal story in SWTOR was known about well before 2010.

And it went a lot further than GW2, so nothing to brag about really for Anet.

Anet wasn’t bragging, they were talking about their game as compared to say…you know the MMOs people were playing at the time it was made. SWToR still came out a couple of years after the manifesto was released.

As for it doing the personal story better, I’m sure it did. That’s why it went free to play and had to fire half it’s staff. It was a raging success.

You know I could pick something from each MMO that it did really well. Vanguard was better than WoW in some ways, but I don’t think anyone should hold it up to compare to anything else.

Bioware specializes in story, and came from making single player MMOs. It was always going to have a good story mode. Too bad the rest of the game fell so flat huh? Do you think Star Wars advertised or talked about anything besides stories before their game released?

Fernling.1729:

Chicho Gosho.6507:

Nike.2631:

Vayne.8563:

First of all we’re talking MMOs, not single player games. And when this was made, there was no MMO that gave you a PERSONAL story.

Weird… its like that entire year I was playing Star Wars: The Old Republic before GW2 came out never happened. And I’m sure Bioware hadn’t been blathering about it for 5 years prior to that.

Star Wars was released 2011-2012 while the manifesto was released 2010.

The personal story in SWTOR was known about well before 2010.

The personal story in Guild Wars 2 was known long before the manifesto.

CobaltSixty.1542:

The manifesto is the Word of God for some people.

Some? Infidel!

Vayne, The Ubiquitous is a false prophet preying on innocent sheep! Do not fall for his silver tongue! Erasculio, Keeper of the Forgotten Promises (hallowed be thy name) is the one and only interpreter of the Holy Scriptures.

Never forget. Never forgive.
<chanting>

Harbard.5738:

CobaltSixty.1542:

The manifesto is the Word of God for some people.

Some? Infidel!

Vayne, The Ubiquitous is a false prophet preying on innocent sheep! Do not fall for his silver tongue! Erasculio, Keeper of the Forgotten Promises (hallowed be thy name) is the one and only interpreter of the Holy Scriptures.

Never forget. Never forgive.
<chanting>

This made me laugh. Brilliant. Probably true also. lol

I guess nobody ever noticed that Age of Conan had an instanced personal story way before GW2 and SWtOR were ever even mentioned…

Valanga.5942:

I guess nobody ever noticed that Age of Conan had an instanced personal story way before GW2 and SWtOR were ever even mentioned…

Actually I did. But even though it was instanced, it was different from the personal stories that came later…it’s more like a forerunner.

There’s a different personal story for each profession (so it would be different if you played a necromancer, say than another profession) but it was the same for ALL necromancers. There were no choices in that game.

Of course, that instanced story only lasted 20 levels till the end of the tutorial area, which coincidentally was all you could play on the free demo. A whole lot of people, including me, loved that part of the game, and felt pretty disenfranchised when the rest of the game wasn’t at all like it.

Is this another thread in the everlasting Saga of Vayne; Chapter Titles 1-all: ANet can do no wrong?

For many the Manifesto very well was the main basis for choosing this game and there was no reason to disbelieve the main message, like the know it-alls and hindsight smart-a.. in here do.
“Marketingz lol”. /rolls eyes

Thankfully there´s Everquest Next on the horizon that actually has a real chance to deliver on ANet´s window dressing.

HawkMeister.4758:

Is this another thread in the everlasting Saga of Vayne; Chapter Titles 1-all: ANet can do no wrong?

For many the Manifesto very well was the main basis for choosing this game and there was no reason to disbelieve the main message, like the know it-alls and hindsight smart-a.. in here do.
“Marketingz lol”. /rolls eyes

Thankfully there´s Everquest Next on the horizon that actually has a real chance to deliver on ANet´s window dressing.

That’s pretty cute. So when people accuse me of lying about a clarification that actually existed (or at least implied I was lying) I shouldn’t set the record straight by offering evidence? Biased much?

There was a clarification of the manifesto, it explained some things that confused people, then more information came out that explained things in even more detail.

I’m pretty sure that watching a five minute video produced two years before a game’s release isn’t sufficient information on which to base a purchasing decision. But since some of us, including me, see that manifesto as largely being fullfilled, this is just your opinion.

And since the manifesto WAS clarified, as I’ve said all along, the naysayers are looking less and less plausible.

Nick.6972:

The white knight fights back again.

It’s not hard to fight against the naysayers. All you have to do is be reasonable. Those that aren’t, will never get it. But many of the lurkers do, if my personal messages are anything to go by.

You know, it’s funny how people try to make this thread about me being a fan boy, or a white knight, while completely ignoring the point of the thread.

I said there was a clarification of the manifesto, and some people tried to call me on it. I produced some evidence it actually existed, circumstantial though it was. Most reasonable people would see an old thread about it on Guru to be genuine.

But apparently people would rather try to discredit me by trying to point out that I’m white knighting. The beauty of it is, I’m demonstrably correct. When they run out of stuff to actually argue about, the next step is to try to discredit by insult.

This tells more about them than it does about me.

Vayne.8563:

Gehenna.3625:

Fernling.1729:

Chicho Gosho.6507:

Nike.2631:

Vayne.8563:

First of all we’re talking MMOs, not single player games. And when this was made, there was no MMO that gave you a PERSONAL story.

Weird… its like that entire year I was playing Star Wars: The Old Republic before GW2 came out never happened. And I’m sure Bioware hadn’t been blathering about it for 5 years prior to that.

Star Wars was released 2011-2012 while the manifesto was released 2010.

The personal story in SWTOR was known about well before 2010.

And it went a lot further than GW2, so nothing to brag about really for Anet.

Anet wasn’t bragging, they were talking about their game as compared to say…you know the MMOs people were playing at the time it was made. SWToR still came out a couple of years after the manifesto was released.

As for it doing the personal story better, I’m sure it did. That’s why it went free to play and had to fire half it’s staff. It was a raging success.

You know I could pick something from each MMO that it did really well. Vanguard was better than WoW in some ways, but I don’t think anyone should hold it up to compare to anything else.

Bioware specializes in story, and came from making single player MMOs. It was always going to have a good story mode. Too bad the rest of the game fell so flat huh? Do you think Star Wars advertised or talked about anything besides stories before their game released?

Now, wait a minute. The story lines in SWTOR are a major feature and they hyped it for sure.

But I am still trying to figure out why you needed to make a new thread about ONE sentence out of the manifesto, especially one that is rather insignificant in my view. So story bosses don’t respawn because they decided to instance them, which was an existing technique. I get it, it was clarified. So what? This game is still either giving handouts or stupidly grindy, the story is crap and certainly not heroic feeling.

If it matters so much to you, then ok, they clarified that they only meant story bosses…which makes that sentence even less significant. I am ready to agree that on this miniscule point they did a correction on a blog.

Of course they didn’t correct it anywhere else but hey, they did it somewhere that some people might find out about. I would’ve prefered they make corrections, sorry clarifications on the main website rather than something you have to know how to find since I don’t get the feeling many people knew about this blog. To me that’s poor communication.

Because they brought the manifesto in full view…it was advertised in every channel they had. Then a clarification comes and then you just have to follow their blog (which is gone by now).

Do you think it’s fair communication this way from them?

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

Gehenna.3625:

Fernling.1729:

Chicho Gosho.6507:

Nike.2631:

Vayne.8563:

First of all we’re talking MMOs, not single player games. And when this was made, there was no MMO that gave you a PERSONAL story.

Weird… its like that entire year I was playing Star Wars: The Old Republic before GW2 came out never happened. And I’m sure Bioware hadn’t been blathering about it for 5 years prior to that.

Star Wars was released 2011-2012 while the manifesto was released 2010.

The personal story in SWTOR was known about well before 2010.

And it went a lot further than GW2, so nothing to brag about really for Anet.

Anet wasn’t bragging, they were talking about their game as compared to say…you know the MMOs people were playing at the time it was made. SWToR still came out a couple of years after the manifesto was released.

As for it doing the personal story better, I’m sure it did. That’s why it went free to play and had to fire half it’s staff. It was a raging success.

You know I could pick something from each MMO that it did really well. Vanguard was better than WoW in some ways, but I don’t think anyone should hold it up to compare to anything else.

Bioware specializes in story, and came from making single player MMOs. It was always going to have a good story mode. Too bad the rest of the game fell so flat huh? Do you think Star Wars advertised or talked about anything besides stories before their game released?

Now, wait a minute. The story lines in SWTOR are a major feature and they hyped it for sure.

But I am still trying to figure out why you needed to make a new thread about ONE sentence out of the manifesto, especially one that is rather insignificant in my view. So story bosses don’t respawn because they decided to instance them, which was an existing technique. I get it, it was clarified. So what? This game is still either giving handouts or stupidly grindy, the story is crap and certainly not heroic feeling.

If it matters so much to you, then ok, they clarified that they only meant story bosses…which makes that sentence even less significant. I am ready to agree that on this miniscule point they did a correction on a blog.

Of course they didn’t correct it anywhere else but hey, they did it somewhere that some people might find out about. I would’ve prefered they make corrections, sorry clarifications on the main website rather than something you have to know how to find since I don’t get the feeling many people knew about this blog. To me that’s poor communication.

Because they brought the manifesto in full view…it was advertised in every channel they had. Then a clarification comes and then you just have to follow their blog (which is gone by now).

Do you think it’s fair communication this way from them?

Actually…this isn’t about one line…and it’s not about one single clarification. Do you really think that there was one single clarification and this fan base left it alone? That manifesto was dissected six ways till Sunday and Anet answered every question about it AT THE TIME. As you do.

Then other information came out. Information the superceded and surplanted the manifesto. So much information it’s hard to believe anyone watched it and didn’t look at anything else.

Because what a dynamic event was…that was presented in GREAT detail. Videos about it, convention panels about it, reports about it, blog posts about it. The amount of detail was staggering. Anyone who entered the game not knowing that events would repeat back and forth along a track simply wasn’t paying attention.

So this isn’t really about one line in the manifesto. This is about people bringing up the manifesto repeatedly and then claiming that the post explaining it didn’t exist, even though I kept bringing it up. There’s more to that thread than just one line…I didn’t post the whole thread here. If people are interested they can go and see the thread and see what people were saying and what was being spoken about.

The point is, there was so much information, but people go back to the manifesto, even though it’s now close to 3 years old, as if it’s the only video or information Anet released. It’s five minutes. It was made two years before the game launched.

Surely other information that came after, and clarified things (for more than the original clarification did) should be taken into account.

I’ve seen some of the things they replied to it. So I will say that at least on some topics they did answer. However, answering is not enough, because the answers were mostly cop outs.

But I guess you decided there weren’t enough threads on the manifesto so you had to create your own. I guess your forum name sounds about right.

So, the original blog is missing. The only thing there are replies that could be misinterpretations, so without the original blog it still means nothing (except the boss thingy that was quoted I suppose).

Now, the manifestor was a great marketing stunt and they said things that were not the actual experience I had in game and judging by the reactions that still come, it will always be a matter of opinion and not proof.

And again, the manifesto is 3 years old, you are absolutely right. But then you complain about people bringing it up over and over again…well guess what, with this thread you did it again.

Do you get that this will never be resolved? Do you get that by bringing it up yet again, the only thing you have achieved is to awaken the same old discussion again?

I told you this in another thread but your methods don’t match your goals. If you wanted to prove a point and thereby convinced everybody that Anet didn’t lie, then you are very naive. All it will do is bringing another thread full of negativity in the top of the forum that you want to have less negativity in.

Well done.

<muttering prayers>
Harbard begins casting Summon Erasculio…
Oh Holy Prophet, we implore you, let the ignorant bask in the light of the Links of Truth! Do not let us falter and permit this deceased equine to go unbattered!

Gehenna.3625:

I’ve seen some of the things they replied to it. So I will say that at least on some topics they did answer. However, answering is not enough, because the answers were mostly cop outs.

But I guess you decided there weren’t enough threads on the manifesto so you had to create your own. I guess your forum name sounds about right.

So, the original blog is missing. The only thing there are replies that could be misinterpretations, so without the original blog it still means nothing (except the boss thingy that was quoted I suppose).

Now, the manifestor was a great marketing stunt and they said things that were not the actual experience I had in game and judging by the reactions that still come, it will always be a matter of opinion and not proof.

And again, the manifesto is 3 years old, you are absolutely right. But then you complain about people bringing it up over and over again…well guess what, with this thread you did it again.

Do you get that this will never be resolved? Do you get that by bringing it up yet again, the only thing you have achieved is to awaken the same old discussion again?

I told you this in another thread but your methods don’t match your goals. If you wanted to prove a point and thereby convinced everybody that Anet didn’t lie, then you are very naive. All it will do is bringing another thread full of negativity in the top of the forum that you want to have less negativity in.

Well done.

Really? LMAO.

Okay so if someone said the clarification said X and it didn’t, you wouldn’t find someone disagreeing with it in a thread? REALLY? I see.

Actually this thread is about the clarification, not the manifesto itself. And if some people don’t want to read about it, they’re free not to be in this thread. It’s not like they have to come here.

But some people might be interested in that clarification and if the original isn’t around, I provided the next best thing.

It seems that if someone wants to say bad things about the manifesto, 800 threads can be made, but the second someone wants to point out something different about the manifesto, well that’s just a duplicate thread, right?

Biased much?

Manifesto Clarification: a (melo)Dramatic Representation of the Ongoing Manifesto (melo)Drama

Act I

Liber Manifestivalensis: We just don’t want people to be azure in this world!

Forumites: Lies! I see azure people all the time in this world! This world is full of azure!

Manifestopholes: That’s not azure, that’s sky blue! The Holy Manifestivals never said people couldn’t be sky blue! Only someone <insert random personal insult here> would say otherwise!

Forumites: …

Act II

Liber Manifestivalensis: Your actions affect things permanently!

Forumites: Lies! Everything resets! Nothing I do matters!

Manifestopholes: The Holy Manifestivals provided us with the Sacred Writ of Clarification which explains how any confusion perceived in the Liber Manifestivalensis was due to typographical errors! And I, Manifestopholes, know all about typographical errors, because I, Manifestopholes, was once a tygropapher!

Forumites: Source?

Manifestopholes: Ain’t nobody got time for that!

Forumites: …

Act III

Manifestopholes: HAH ha! I, Manifestopholes, seeking far and wide have at last found relevant passages in another repository of sacred texts in which other Forumites testify openly about having read the Sacred Writ of Clarification – which not only proves it existed, but also supports my claim that the Holy Manifestivals were talking about how the only changes an individual can make that make any persistent difference exist only in that individual’s Individual Experience, in which the people that that individual already met, when reintroduced later, don’t seem to remember they already met that individual! Er… I mean, see! It existed! People talked about it! Therefore, I, Manifestopholes, am right and you, the <insert random insult> Forumites, are all wrong! Wrong, wrong, wrong! Neener neener!

Forumites: /e golf clap.

-30?-

Sigh. Vayne, you are shooting your own foot.

This…

Vayne.8563:

I found something that verified, at least circumstantially that what I said was true. People based on this can accept it or not, but I’m not willing to devote more time to the search.

…Is worthless. It’s very, very easy to find the blog entries from that time. People have already linked those entries for you – I know because I have linked them, too. And when you say you don’t want to devote time about this, well, you probably have a hundred posts about this subject by now. So saying you don’t want to devote time to it isn’t exactly convincing.

Ergo…

Vayne.8563:

Maybe people will stop saying that I’m inventing stuff now.

You are. You have ignored all evidence people directly linked to you from the time of the Manifesto, showing how your interpretation is wrong. Your link, as you mentioned yourself, is circunstancial at best – a bunch of nobodies discussing their interpretation of the information released at the time. We have direct access to ArenaNet’s statement. They show you are wrong. Heh, the Manifesto itself shows you are wrong.

We know exactly what ArenaNet said. We know exactly how they said they didn’t want players to grind, because they knew grind is boring and no one enjoys it. They mentioned how they didn’t want people to grind for rewards. We also know how ArenaNet went back on all those things later on, probably afraid that the players of classic MMORPGs wouldn’t like GW2 if they didn’t have something to grind for.

The Manifesto, effectively, is a lie. We can prove that based on ArenaNet’s words. Linking a bunch of forum posts from GWGuru (famously known as “LOLGuru”) with second hand information is not going to change any of that.

Vayne.8563:

ArchonWing.9480:

Ah, so all that cool stuff referred to the personal story.

That’s great. Where is this awesome personal story? I saw a pile of trash that was passing itself off as one in game, but I doubt anyone with any appreciation of art or gameplay would consider that more than 25% complete. I thought that was just Trahearne’s story?

This has nothing to do with whether you like or don’t like the personal story. That’s another issue entirely. People are saying the manifesto lied when it said certain things and to avoid misunderstanding at that time, Anet clarified it. Whether you like what they did or not is fine. I don’t care. What I do care about it people deliberately misinterpreting something to prove some sort of non-existent point.

You didn’t like the personal story. Okay. Doesn’t change the fact that it’s a personal story. And some people did like it.

My own experience is that personal stories were uneven. An no, I didn’t have the problems with Trahearne that most people did.

Oh, but it does matter.

In practice, story or not, much of what was stated in the Manifesto did not materialize in the game in an adequate shape or form.

Point is, they expressed certain ideas that appealed to some people because they were good gameplay concepts. Now you can argue the developers never intended this for the main game itself, but that just doesn’t reflect on it very well, I’d say. I’d rather not believe that they confined these ideas to the PS, because if they did, well that’s really kitten disappointing.

Honestly, this is just a bad way to defend the game by shifting the argument over there especially with such spotty evidence. Regardless of what Anet “lied” or whatever is actually not too relevant to me. It’s better to talk about how those useful concepts can be applied to the game itself in its current context. Because a lot of those concepts went against what people consider shallow and repetitive gameplay, and we wouldn’t want that in here, would be?