Guild Wars 2

Trajan.4953:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

The real issue here is those that choose to define grind by it’s “modern” definition as opposed to its original definition

Are we now supposed to believe that the dev was referring to crushing or pulverizing ?

No, but since there’s zero in the manifesto to say he was talking about gear grind, I don’t know why anyone would choose to believe that’s the case. There’s simply nothing in the language to support that conclusion.

From the:

“Guild Wars 2 Design Manifesto
by Mike O’Brien on April 27, 2010

It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.

- Mike O’Brien"

So, what future fun reward is this referring to? The optional rewards like titles and achievements all required a ton of grind in GW. Most of the unique skins were gated behind RNG so severe that most people who tried to farm them devised solo farming builds to remove the chances someone else might get the drop. The only exception came with the chests implemented in EotN and added to UW and FoW, and those were still low chance RNG. Mini-pets? Those were time gated in GW. By extension, one can infer that “our games aren’t about grinding for a future fun reward” cannot be referring to any of the above.

What do other games offer as fun rewards that people grind for? What are people going to think of when they read this paragraph? What could he be referring to if it’s not better gear?

I think, and I may be wrong, but that A-Net is trying to design their game around the actual experience of the game to get to the reward. The problem, inherently is that most MMO players have been trained that the reward, and only the reward, is what’s important, and the best way to get said reward is by the fastest most efficient means possible.

jmho.

I agree with this.

Chuo.4238:

Trajan.4953:

Chuo.4238:

This has truly been the very most entertaining thread on these forums.

My two cents:

1) I cannot fathom why someone (I won’t name names but I bet you could guess who in one try) would work so hard to defend a company that’s not paying them to do so. So either they’re getting paid under the table to be that “voice of reason”, or they’re a bit weirdly obsessive over the game. Basically, something going on is either a little creepy, or a lot dishonest. Either way, I’m inclined to gently disregard much of what that person says.

2) You can lawyer the nitnoid details of the Manifesto all you want. It’s pretty kitten clear that many, many, many people read that thing and interpreted it to mean something very different from what we got in GW2. To me, a Manifesto is the source document, and after-the-fact interviews with the people involved saying “well, what we really meant was…..” do not qualify as meaningful in this context. See below.

snip

So when you put that together with the other things I mentions, I look at the result and start to feel like I’m being taken for a ride here. I get the feeling that this is a company that will say whatever it thinks it needs to in order to try and convince customers to keep buying the product, and will backpedal when called on it and try to explain that “that’s not what we meant”. Then they’ll make comments about how players “come after us with torches and pitchforks” (look elsewhere in the forums – a Dev said this, and I cbf dealing with the poor search function here) when said players try and get them to either clarify, or simply call them on not doing what they said.

So yea. Why all the time and effort defending the thing? Maybe you like the game, and that’s fine, but it’s simply not the game described in the Manifesto – and never will be. ArenaNet have made what they’ve made, and no doubt are rolling in money now, but they’ve lost most of my respect as a company that strives for quality, and one that mans what it says. I don’t believe them any more – they’ve over-hyped and under-delivered far too often, and then tried to explain everything away. I don’t feel that they have an interest in being up front with their players, nor in putting any more effort than necessary into quality – just enough to keep a few big spenders in the gem store.

To me, ArenaNet was that special company that was willing to be different and innovative, and most especially, imaginative. To me, they’re no different than any other studio now. So I treat this game the same as any other now. I log on occasionally, putz around, maybe do something if a friend is on, and log off. There’s no way it’s come anywhere near capturing my imagination like Guild Wars did.

It could have – but I don’t trust this company any more. Enjoy your gear grind. I just don’t see the point in it.

Edit: typo

So why, on Earth, are you still? So much hate, one would think you would find somewhere that makes you happy?

Please explain to me why you, and several others still haunt these forums with rage and vitriol even though you have said time and again you have left the game?

I really want to understand, not trolling.

First off, no rage and vitriol here. Just disappointment.

The years-long love affair with Guild Wars. We’ve awakened to find a different company, and have been hoping to voice our opinions, be heard, and maybe see ArenaNet move back towards what they used to be.

We’re slowly giving up on it, now, though. I think you’ll find that posts from people like us are becoming fewer and fewer as we log in less and less. What I posted up there was pretty much my “I give up” statement, I suppose.

I had years of fun with ArenaNet. I’m saddened that it’s probably time to move on, but I guess nothing lasts forever.

From the look of it, there are a whole lot of people running around with GWAMM titles, saying that not all Guild Wars 1 players feel the same. I’m one of them, and my wife is another. So you speak for some Guild Wars 1 players, but how many? You can’t say and neither can I.

As for the rest of your post, if someone actually releases a clarification 3 days after the video, I’m not sure how anyone can say that doesn’t matter. In other words, some of it they saw was misintepreted, and they clarified it so people would understand. That’s what happens in everything. Newspaper articles post corrections all the time. People did misinterpret part of it and Anet responded.

You might ask why then didn’t they post a clarification of the grind issue? Because the game wasn’t out yet and they didn’t know 2 years later someone will eventually misintepret it.

No matter how many people eventually misintepreted doesn’t change the fact that gear isn’t mentioned at all in the manifesto. So there’s no real reason to interpret it that way.

@Chuo

Re this theoretical person you’re talking about, I guess you’ve never experienced a sports fan before? Ever hear of a soccer riot?

Fans of anything that they like, sport, music, politics even, anything, can become passionate about it. I was a huge NY Yankees fan at one point. I used to argue with my sister about them all the time (she was a Mets fan) but I was never on the Yankees payroll. To suggest the only reason someone would become passionate about a game they like is that the company is paying them doesn’t make much sense to me.

But more to the point, I am not actually defending the game, or even the company. I’m doing what I always do, which is waging a war against injustice. If I see someone accused of lying, even if I don’t like them, I’ll certainly rally to their defense. This has less to do about the game and more to do about natural justice to someone like me.

And I suspect if you’ve been through some of the stuff in your life that I have in mine, you might feel the same.

I don’t care if people think that Anet didn’t live up to the manifesto. I only care that people say they lied. Why? Because no one can prove intent and lying implies intent.

If you say Anet hasn’t made a fun game, that’s fine. It didn’t live up to the manifesto to you. If you say Anet deliberately misled you, I’d say you’d have a hard time proving that, and the burden of proof should be on you.

Trajan.4953:

First off, no rage and vitriol here. Just disappointment.

The years-long love affair with Guild Wars. We’ve awakened to find a different company, and have been hoping to voice our opinions, be heard, and maybe see ArenaNet move back towards what they used to be.

We’re slowly giving up on it, now, though. I think you’ll find that posts from people like us are becoming fewer and fewer as we log in less and less. What I posted up there was pretty much my “I give up” statement, I suppose.

I had years of fun with ArenaNet. I’m saddened that it’s probably time to move on, but I guess nothing lasts forever.

I can understand this. Breaking up is hard, so to speak. Thank you for the insight, sincerely.

See this I can relate to completely. I feel a lot of sympathy for you, because your expectations with Guild Wars 2 have not been met. There’s no argument here from me that this game is significantly different from Guild Wars 1.

While some of those differences are quite negative (PvP formats lacking, less team work required, less build variety), some are quite positive to me (marketplace, no pathing, the ability to jump—I love the jumping puzzles, npcs in the world that are voiced that make it feel more alive to me, dynamic events).

In the end, Anet did what Anet did with Guild Wars 1…they innovated. They changed things up. They iterated. That’s what they did.

It doesn’t leave much happiness for those hoping for Guild Wars 1.5, however, and for that, I can completely sympathize.

Whats funny is the word “Manifesto”. I have been involved in many companies doing start-ups and a manifesto is a good starting point, having said that, in the real world, things like manifestos and Business Plans change by necessity. The fact that so many, especially GW1 players, are clinging to an introductory set of words seems a trifle strange.

Trajan.4953:

Whats funny is the word “Manifesto”. I have been involved in many companies doing start-ups and a manifesto is a good starting point, having said that, in the real world, things like manifestos and Business Plans change by necessity. The fact that so many, especially GW1 players, are clinging to an introductory set of words seems a trifle strange.

To be fair, it was a very well done video that called to the heart of what people like me hated about MMOs. And I really think Anet believed when they wrote it they could completely change the landscape. But they didn’t count on player reaction to what they were doing.

So they open the game, thinking everyone will be fine with purely cosmetic rewards…but that wasn’t the case. Most people weren’t fine with it…though the GW 1 fans certainly were.

So Anet made a compromise..that being ascended gear. They’ve said that ascended gear was always supposed to be in the game, and maybe that’s a bit of spin. I suspect that it was supposed to be in the game, but not in its current form. We’ll never know for sure.

But we do know that Anet had hard data about how many people maxed out their gear and left. They made decisions based on this as any company would. It definitely represented a change in direction. It definitely doesn’t mean the manifesto was a lie. Most of it is still completely true…if misunderstood.

Vayne.8563:

Trajan.4953:

Whats funny is the word “Manifesto”. I have been involved in many companies doing start-ups and a manifesto is a good starting point, having said that, in the real world, things like manifestos and Business Plans change by necessity. The fact that so many, especially GW1 players, are clinging to an introductory set of words seems a trifle strange.

To be fair, it was a very well done video that called to the heart of what people like me hated about MMOs. And I really think Anet believed when they wrote it they could completely change the landscape. But they didn’t count on player reaction to what they were doing.

So they open the game, thinking everyone will be fine with purely cosmetic rewards…but that wasn’t the case. Most people weren’t fine with it…though the GW 1 fans certainly were.

So Anet made a compromise..that being ascended gear. They’ve said that ascended gear was always supposed to be in the game, and maybe that’s a bit of spin. I suspect that it was supposed to be in the game, but not in its current form. We’ll never know for sure.

But we do know that Anet had hard data about how many people maxed out their gear and left. They made decisions based on this as any company would. It definitely represented a change in direction. It definitely doesn’t mean the manifesto was a lie. Most of it is still completely true…if misunderstood.

I feel it has been “adjusted” to meet the needs of the player base that they have data on that we can’t even begin to imagine.

Ascended gear had a rocky start but seems to have leveled out since there are other ways to obtain it apart from fractals, everyone is happy, well not everyone…

A-Net made a AAA title with their own engine (not a cheap undertaking), they had to appeal to a wider audience than just GW1 players, though they are trying. I feel they have made some mistakes but nobody, and I mean NOBODY, tries to appease the playerbase like A-Net.

The Manifesto is, as you say, a well done video and it has appealed to many and largely remains true to form, but cannot be taken as canon 3 years after the fact.

jmho

Trajan.4953:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

The real issue here is those that choose to define grind by it’s “modern” definition as opposed to its original definition

Are we now supposed to believe that the dev was referring to crushing or pulverizing ?

No, but since there’s zero in the manifesto to say he was talking about gear grind, I don’t know why anyone would choose to believe that’s the case. There’s simply nothing in the language to support that conclusion.

From the:

“Guild Wars 2 Design Manifesto
by Mike O’Brien on April 27, 2010

It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.

- Mike O’Brien"

So, what future fun reward is this referring to? The optional rewards like titles and achievements all required a ton of grind in GW. Most of the unique skins were gated behind RNG so severe that most people who tried to farm them devised solo farming builds to remove the chances someone else might get the drop. The only exception came with the chests implemented in EotN and added to UW and FoW, and those were still low chance RNG. Mini-pets? Those were time gated in GW. By extension, one can infer that “our games aren’t about grinding for a future fun reward” cannot be referring to any of the above.

What do other games offer as fun rewards that people grind for? What are people going to think of when they read this paragraph? What could he be referring to if it’s not better gear?

I think, and I may be wrong, but that A-Net is trying to design their game around the actual experience of the game to get to the reward. The problem, inherently is that most MMO players have been trained that the reward, and only the reward, is what’s important, and the best way to get said reward is by the fastest most efficient means possible.

jmho.

I agree with that take.

Vayne.8563:

BlueZone.4236:

Vayne.8563:

BlueZone.4236:

Vayne.8563:

The real issue here is those that choose to define grind by it’s “modern” definition as opposed to its original definition have nothing in the manifesto itself to support them. It starts off with Colin talking about this annoying grind before getting to the fun stuff. What are the odds that fun stuff is talking about gear. The game has always been activity based, rather than gear based. The other stuff in the manifesto they’re talking about, combat, events, personal story. They’re not talking about gear at all. That’s a reward based mentality that Anet has never shared.

Everything was about the experience. That’s why everyone complains about rewards. It’s not the way the company thinks.

He says “annoying grind before you get to the fun stuff” and he says “we want to change the way people view combat”. There’s nothing here about gear grind at all. People who claim there is have nothing in the manifesto itself to support them. What they have is their own opinion of what grind means from outside the manifesto.

Not even a year out since it’s official release and we can already see them starting to backpedal on “annoying grind before you get to the fun stuff”.
Case in point: Queen’s Gauntlet.
Sure, we get a free sample, but what a shame if you want to play it a lot.

Except that before Launch, in interviews, Eric Flannum said straight out there would be stuff to grind for for people who enjoy grinding. This isn’t something they added just now.

Again, the manifesto was talking about grinding to level. That’s it. That’s what grinding used to mean. It didn’t mean grinding for gear or tickets.

This was said again and again after the manifesto. They gave you fun things to do early on. I’m not sure in what world that equates to there would never be anything to work for in this game. These are not congruent statements.

Dressing the same thing in a slightly different manner really doesn’t make it different.
It is irrelevant that the old method was to restrict “fun stuff” via levels. The “fun stuff” here requires grind to get access. Same difference.

There’s a logical fallacy in your argument.

We don’t want you to have to grind to get to the fun stuff. Therefore, if there’s fun stuff to do BEFORE you grind, you’ve already gotten to the fun stuff. It’s not saying there’s nothing in the game to grind for. That’s the logical fallacy.

Guild Wars 1 had tons of stuff to grind for…it’s just that that stuff wasn’t required. More to the point, Guild Wars 2 is talking about how other games are. Leveling is one experience and playing after level cap something else. You speed level/power level to do raids. That’s how this game is different. The fun stuff, the stuff you do in the beginning, is the stuff you do later on.

I’ve lost count of how many times Anet has said this and it remains true.

Oh, so you’re saying having different fun stuff makes grinding for this particular fun stuff/activity makes it okay. No backpedaling then.
The stuff you have to do now to get to retain access to Queen’s Gauntlet is…?

I have no idea what you’re arguing about regarding Guild Wars 1 and it’s non-activity (eg. gear) grind. I don’t care about that. What I was talking about is them starting to make “fun stuff” (ie. Queen’s Gauntlet) requiring a grind to get access to, which I expect the first of many.

BlueZone.4236:

Vayne.8563:

BlueZone.4236:

Vayne.8563:

BlueZone.4236:

Vayne.8563:

The real issue here is those that choose to define grind by it’s “modern” definition as opposed to its original definition have nothing in the manifesto itself to support them. It starts off with Colin talking about this annoying grind before getting to the fun stuff. What are the odds that fun stuff is talking about gear. The game has always been activity based, rather than gear based. The other stuff in the manifesto they’re talking about, combat, events, personal story. They’re not talking about gear at all. That’s a reward based mentality that Anet has never shared.

Everything was about the experience. That’s why everyone complains about rewards. It’s not the way the company thinks.

He says “annoying grind before you get to the fun stuff” and he says “we want to change the way people view combat”. There’s nothing here about gear grind at all. People who claim there is have nothing in the manifesto itself to support them. What they have is their own opinion of what grind means from outside the manifesto.

Not even a year out since it’s official release and we can already see them starting to backpedal on “annoying grind before you get to the fun stuff”.
Case in point: Queen’s Gauntlet.
Sure, we get a free sample, but what a shame if you want to play it a lot.

Except that before Launch, in interviews, Eric Flannum said straight out there would be stuff to grind for for people who enjoy grinding. This isn’t something they added just now.

Again, the manifesto was talking about grinding to level. That’s it. That’s what grinding used to mean. It didn’t mean grinding for gear or tickets.

This was said again and again after the manifesto. They gave you fun things to do early on. I’m not sure in what world that equates to there would never be anything to work for in this game. These are not congruent statements.

Dressing the same thing in a slightly different manner really doesn’t make it different.
It is irrelevant that the old method was to restrict “fun stuff” via levels. The “fun stuff” here requires grind to get access. Same difference.

There’s a logical fallacy in your argument.

We don’t want you to have to grind to get to the fun stuff. Therefore, if there’s fun stuff to do BEFORE you grind, you’ve already gotten to the fun stuff. It’s not saying there’s nothing in the game to grind for. That’s the logical fallacy.

Guild Wars 1 had tons of stuff to grind for…it’s just that that stuff wasn’t required. More to the point, Guild Wars 2 is talking about how other games are. Leveling is one experience and playing after level cap something else. You speed level/power level to do raids. That’s how this game is different. The fun stuff, the stuff you do in the beginning, is the stuff you do later on.

I’ve lost count of how many times Anet has said this and it remains true.

Oh, so you’re saying having different fun stuff makes grinding for this particular fun stuff/activity makes it okay. No backpedaling then.
The stuff you have to do now to get to retain access to Queen’s Gauntlet is…?

I have no idea what you’re arguing about regarding Guild Wars 1 and it’s non-activity (eg. gear) grind. I don’t care about that. What I was talking about is them starting to make “fun stuff” (ie. Queen’s Gauntlet) requiring a grind to get access to, which I expect the first of many.

I don’t see why you say it’s back peddling. Saying there will be stuff to do that’s fun right away, isn’t the same as saying there will never be anything to grind for. They’re two different statements.

They were saying there’s fun stuff to do before the grind. And since you can buy tickets with sprockets if you need them, it’s not even that hard to acquire the stuff you need. What they created here was a challenging event for people who want the challenge. That’s it.

But then, if you find the farming below fun, and some do, then what Anet said is completely true…even if for your usage of the word grind. Fun is subjective.

Vayne.8563:

BlueZone.4236:

Vayne.8563:

BlueZone.4236:

Vayne.8563:

BlueZone.4236:

Vayne.8563:

The real issue here is those that choose to define grind by it’s “modern” definition as opposed to its original definition have nothing in the manifesto itself to support them. It starts off with Colin talking about this annoying grind before getting to the fun stuff. What are the odds that fun stuff is talking about gear. The game has always been activity based, rather than gear based. The other stuff in the manifesto they’re talking about, combat, events, personal story. They’re not talking about gear at all. That’s a reward based mentality that Anet has never shared.

Everything was about the experience. That’s why everyone complains about rewards. It’s not the way the company thinks.

He says “annoying grind before you get to the fun stuff” and he says “we want to change the way people view combat”. There’s nothing here about gear grind at all. People who claim there is have nothing in the manifesto itself to support them. What they have is their own opinion of what grind means from outside the manifesto.

Not even a year out since it’s official release and we can already see them starting to backpedal on “annoying grind before you get to the fun stuff”.
Case in point: Queen’s Gauntlet.
Sure, we get a free sample, but what a shame if you want to play it a lot.

Except that before Launch, in interviews, Eric Flannum said straight out there would be stuff to grind for for people who enjoy grinding. This isn’t something they added just now.

Again, the manifesto was talking about grinding to level. That’s it. That’s what grinding used to mean. It didn’t mean grinding for gear or tickets.

This was said again and again after the manifesto. They gave you fun things to do early on. I’m not sure in what world that equates to there would never be anything to work for in this game. These are not congruent statements.

Dressing the same thing in a slightly different manner really doesn’t make it different.
It is irrelevant that the old method was to restrict “fun stuff” via levels. The “fun stuff” here requires grind to get access. Same difference.

There’s a logical fallacy in your argument.

We don’t want you to have to grind to get to the fun stuff. Therefore, if there’s fun stuff to do BEFORE you grind, you’ve already gotten to the fun stuff. It’s not saying there’s nothing in the game to grind for. That’s the logical fallacy.

Guild Wars 1 had tons of stuff to grind for…it’s just that that stuff wasn’t required. More to the point, Guild Wars 2 is talking about how other games are. Leveling is one experience and playing after level cap something else. You speed level/power level to do raids. That’s how this game is different. The fun stuff, the stuff you do in the beginning, is the stuff you do later on.

I’ve lost count of how many times Anet has said this and it remains true.

Oh, so you’re saying having different fun stuff makes grinding for this particular fun stuff/activity makes it okay. No backpedaling then.
The stuff you have to do now to get to retain access to Queen’s Gauntlet is…?

I have no idea what you’re arguing about regarding Guild Wars 1 and it’s non-activity (eg. gear) grind. I don’t care about that. What I was talking about is them starting to make “fun stuff” (ie. Queen’s Gauntlet) requiring a grind to get access to, which I expect the first of many.

I don’t see why you say it’s back peddling. Saying there will be stuff to do that’s fun right away, isn’t the same as saying there will never be anything to grind for. They’re two different statements.

They were saying there’s fun stuff to do before the grind. And since you can buy tickets with sprockets if you need them, it’s not even that hard to acquire the stuff you need. What they created here was a challenging event for people who want the challenge. That’s it.

But then, if you find the farming below fun, and some do, then what Anet said is completely true…even if for your usage of the word grind. Fun is subjective.

“Starting to” backpedal on their philosophy. This is testing the water.
Again, grinding for gear is one thing, grinding to access fun stuff is another.
Yes, they have a challenging event, but in order to attempt it multiple times (and with gambits) requires…what now?
Farming for gear is not the same as farming for access to events.

BlueZone.4236:

Vayne.8563:

BlueZone.4236:

Vayne.8563:

BlueZone.4236:

Vayne.8563:

BlueZone.4236:

Vayne.8563:

snip

Not even a year out since it’s official release and we can already see them starting to backpedal on “annoying grind before you get to the fun stuff”.
Case in point: Queen’s Gauntlet.
Sure, we get a free sample, but what a shame if you want to play it a lot.

Except that before Launch, in interviews, Eric Flannum said straight out there would be stuff to grind for for people who enjoy grinding. This isn’t something they added just now.

Again, the manifesto was talking about grinding to level. That’s it. That’s what grinding used to mean. It didn’t mean grinding for gear or tickets.

This was said again and again after the manifesto. They gave you fun things to do early on. I’m not sure in what world that equates to there would never be anything to work for in this game. These are not congruent statements.

Dressing the same thing in a slightly different manner really doesn’t make it different.
It is irrelevant that the old method was to restrict “fun stuff” via levels. The “fun stuff” here requires grind to get access. Same difference.

There’s a logical fallacy in your argument.

We don’t want you to have to grind to get to the fun stuff. Therefore, if there’s fun stuff to do BEFORE you grind, you’ve already gotten to the fun stuff. It’s not saying there’s nothing in the game to grind for. That’s the logical fallacy.

Guild Wars 1 had tons of stuff to grind for…it’s just that that stuff wasn’t required. More to the point, Guild Wars 2 is talking about how other games are. Leveling is one experience and playing after level cap something else. You speed level/power level to do raids. That’s how this game is different. The fun stuff, the stuff you do in the beginning, is the stuff you do later on.

I’ve lost count of how many times Anet has said this and it remains true.

Oh, so you’re saying having different fun stuff makes grinding for this particular fun stuff/activity makes it okay. No backpedaling then.
The stuff you have to do now to get to retain access to Queen’s Gauntlet is…?

I have no idea what you’re arguing about regarding Guild Wars 1 and it’s non-activity (eg. gear) grind. I don’t care about that. What I was talking about is them starting to make “fun stuff” (ie. Queen’s Gauntlet) requiring a grind to get access to, which I expect the first of many.

I don’t see why you say it’s back peddling. Saying there will be stuff to do that’s fun right away, isn’t the same as saying there will never be anything to grind for. They’re two different statements.

They were saying there’s fun stuff to do before the grind. And since you can buy tickets with sprockets if you need them, it’s not even that hard to acquire the stuff you need. What they created here was a challenging event for people who want the challenge. That’s it.

But then, if you find the farming below fun, and some do, then what Anet said is completely true…even if for your usage of the word grind. Fun is subjective.

“Starting to” backpedal on their philosophy. This is testing the water.
Again, grinding for gear is one thing, grinding to access fun stuff is another.
Yes, they have a challenging event, but in order to attempt it multiple times (and with gambits) requires…what now?
Farming for gear is not the same as farming for access to events.

Still has nothing to do with backpeddling.

All the manifesto says is that there will be fun stuff to do up front. That’s it. It never says you’ll never have to put effort into getting something.

Take dungeon tokens. Been in the game since day 1. If you want to get a full set of armor from a dungeon that’s a whole lot of runs. But that has nothing to do with having to grind to get to the fun stuff. Because you can run the dungeon once.

This isn’t any difference. You don’t need to do that content. It’s an option. If you like it, and you find it worth it, you’ll do it. If you don’t find it worth it you won’t. The amount of “grind” unquote to get those tickets is neglible considering everything drops them. I got three of them doing a fractal run today.

But it still has zero to do with the manifesto.

The manifesto is a general statement about the game, not a specific discussion of any single aspect of it. You’re picking one temporary two week content that was never conceived before the manifesto.

Have you ever played Guild Wars 1. Are you saying 9 rings wasn’t a grind?

Behellagh.1468:

The earliest date I can find for the manifesto is Aug 10, 2010. The clarification on the blog was Aug 13, 2010. So why do people keep claiming that the manifesto means one thing when those points were clarified only 3 days later nearly 3 years ago as to what they meant?

Because they don’t clarify anything important? All the problematic parts with the manifesto are still there.

Vayne.8563:

The real issue here is those that choose to define grind by it’s “modern” definition as opposed to its original definition have nothing in the manifesto itself to support them. It starts off with Colin talking about this annoying grind before getting to the fun stuff. What are the odds that fun stuff is talking about gear. The game has always been activity based, rather than gear based.

Exactly. The manifesto strongly suggests that there would be no (or minimal) annoying gear grind before getting to the fun stuff. Because, as you yourself have noticed, the chance that they considered gearing up as fun stuff was close to zero then. The game was not meant to be gear-based.
And yet, it is going in this direction now.

Vayne.8563:

True doesn’t mean true forever. It was true when they wrote it. Every game changes. Can you name one MMO that hasn’t changed and evolved.

There’s evolution, and there’s changing a whole core philosophy by 180 degrees 3 months after launch. One is not like the other.

Astralporing.1957:

Behellagh.1468:

The earliest date I can find for the manifesto is Aug 10, 2010. The clarification on the blog was Aug 13, 2010. So why do people keep claiming that the manifesto means one thing when those points were clarified only 3 days later nearly 3 years ago as to what they meant?

Because they don’t clarify anything important? All the problematic parts with the manifesto are still there.

I wish I had a dollar for each time someone brought up the line “the boss you killed respawns ten minutes later” as one of the arguments against the manifesto.

If it’s not important why do people keep bringing it up, even in this thread.

Also, as previously mentioned, there was no reason to clarify anything else at that time, because until the game launched there was no way Anet could know people were confused about anything else?

Vayne.8563:

Also, as previously mentioned, there was no reason to clarify anything else at that time, because until the game launched there was no way Anet could know people were confused about anything else?

Yep, they certainly weren’t confused about this game having no vertical progression and no stat grind. Oh wait…

Astralporing.1957:

Vayne.8563:

Also, as previously mentioned, there was no reason to clarify anything else at that time, because until the game launched there was no way Anet could know people were confused about anything else?

Yep, they certainly weren’t confused about this game having no vertical progression and no stat grind. Oh wait…

It doesn’t mention vertical progression in the manifesto. It doesn’t mention stat grind in the manifesto. There’s nothing in the wording of the manifesto to suggest either thing. You heard the word grind, you assumed what was being said. Other people assumed other things.

And technically vertical progression has been in the game since day 1 and no one cared. Having 80th level masterwork, rare and exotic is vertical progression. You’re already at level 80 and getting more powerful gear.

Vayne.8563:

Still has nothing to do with backpeddling.

All the manifesto says is that there will be fun stuff to do up front. That’s it. It never says you’ll never have to put effort into getting something.

Take dungeon tokens. Been in the game since day 1. If you want to get a full set of armor from a dungeon that’s a whole lot of runs. But that has nothing to do with having to grind to get to the fun stuff. Because you can run the dungeon once.

This isn’t any difference. You don’t need to do that content. It’s an option. If you like it, and you find it worth it, you’ll do it. If you don’t find it worth it you won’t. The amount of “grind” unquote to get those tickets is neglible considering everything drops them. I got three of them doing a fractal run today.

But it still has zero to do with the manifesto.

The manifesto is a general statement about the game, not a specific discussion of any single aspect of it. You’re picking one temporary two week content that was never conceived before the manifesto.

Have you ever played Guild Wars 1. Are you saying 9 rings wasn’t a grind?

Playing different aspects of the game is optional. So what?
Doing grind to continuously access the gauntlet is a requirement.
Your dungeon token argument makes zero sense. It’s not like dungeon tokens are a requirement to access certain parts of a dungeon. But this is akin to what the gauntlet requirement is.

If your argument was they conceived the gauntlet requirement prior to the manifest, that would make sense. Since it’s after, they clearly think “grinding to get to fun stuff” is now okay.

BlueZone.4236:

Vayne.8563:

Still has nothing to do with backpeddling.

All the manifesto says is that there will be fun stuff to do up front. That’s it. It never says you’ll never have to put effort into getting something.

Take dungeon tokens. Been in the game since day 1. If you want to get a full set of armor from a dungeon that’s a whole lot of runs. But that has nothing to do with having to grind to get to the fun stuff. Because you can run the dungeon once.

This isn’t any difference. You don’t need to do that content. It’s an option. If you like it, and you find it worth it, you’ll do it. If you don’t find it worth it you won’t. The amount of “grind” unquote to get those tickets is neglible considering everything drops them. I got three of them doing a fractal run today.

But it still has zero to do with the manifesto.

The manifesto is a general statement about the game, not a specific discussion of any single aspect of it. You’re picking one temporary two week content that was never conceived before the manifesto.

Have you ever played Guild Wars 1. Are you saying 9 rings wasn’t a grind?

Playing different aspects of the game is optional. So what?
Doing grind to continuously access the gauntlet is a requirement.
Your dungeon token argument makes zero sense. It’s not like dungeon tokens are a requirement to access certain parts of a dungeon. But this is akin to what the gauntlet requirement is.

If your argument was they conceived the gauntlet requirement prior to the manifest, that would make sense. Since it’s after, they clearly think “grinding to get to fun stuff” is now okay.

I disagree. The manifesto doesn’t say there won’t be fun stuff that you have to work to get to. It simply says there will be fun stuff up front. There’s no guarantee there that says ALL fun stuff will instantly attainable.

At any rate, it’s still not a grind. If you play the game normally for bit, you’ll get plenty of those tickets…and gears to buy tickets with.

Vayne.8563:

BlueZone.4236:

Vayne.8563:

Still has nothing to do with backpeddling.

All the manifesto says is that there will be fun stuff to do up front. That’s it. It never says you’ll never have to put effort into getting something.

Take dungeon tokens. Been in the game since day 1. If you want to get a full set of armor from a dungeon that’s a whole lot of runs. But that has nothing to do with having to grind to get to the fun stuff. Because you can run the dungeon once.

This isn’t any difference. You don’t need to do that content. It’s an option. If you like it, and you find it worth it, you’ll do it. If you don’t find it worth it you won’t. The amount of “grind” unquote to get those tickets is neglible considering everything drops them. I got three of them doing a fractal run today.

But it still has zero to do with the manifesto.

The manifesto is a general statement about the game, not a specific discussion of any single aspect of it. You’re picking one temporary two week content that was never conceived before the manifesto.

Have you ever played Guild Wars 1. Are you saying 9 rings wasn’t a grind?

Playing different aspects of the game is optional. So what?
Doing grind to continuously access the gauntlet is a requirement.
Your dungeon token argument makes zero sense. It’s not like dungeon tokens are a requirement to access certain parts of a dungeon. But this is akin to what the gauntlet requirement is.

If your argument was they conceived the gauntlet requirement prior to the manifest, that would make sense. Since it’s after, they clearly think “grinding to get to fun stuff” is now okay.

I disagree. The manifesto doesn’t say there won’t be fun stuff that you have to work to get to. It simply says there will be fun stuff up front. There’s no guarantee there that says ALL fun stuff will instantly attainable.

At any rate, it’s still not a grind. If you play the game normally for bit, you’ll get plenty of those tickets…and gears to buy tickets with.

I guess you haven’t seen how accessible a lot of the major previous content was, then? (EDIT: I am talking about “fun stuff” to do, not gear if you’re going to argue that)

At any rate, a grind for the gauntlet is still a grind for the gauntlet, regardless if you are easily distracted by other carrots.

BlueZone.4236:

Playing different aspects of the game is optional. So what?
Doing grind to continuously access the gauntlet is a requirement.
Your dungeon token argument makes zero sense. It’s not like dungeon tokens are a requirement to access certain parts of a dungeon. But this is akin to what the gauntlet requirement is.

Grind is not a defined quantity as some seem to think. It’s personal. Different people get bored or feel something is repetitious at different points. So if you find it grindy and another doesn’t both can be right.

For myself I know there is repetition in any game and that’s ok. But did they get the balance right so it doesn’t feel like chore? Again, it’s personal but I feel the balance is off and they sold this game as not feeling grindy, knowing that a lot of people would feel differently.

Part of the issue is also the reward system. For me the balance between effort and reward is key. Effort is measured by time, challenge and repetition. Reward is what you get as a result as in the sense of completion, fun of the activity and the actual reward.

The problem I see with GW2 is that the lack if difficulty makes any reward feel less valuable. It’s like the 16 year old american kid who gets a car for his b-day and crashes it the next day. You don’t value what comes easy as much as something you work for.

Also the rewards themselves tend to be ok-ish but not much really makes me go wow, I want that. There is some improvement but stats don’t matter so much and the skins are often ugly so there’s not much to really go for.

Then story missions give crap rewards as well. I have the feeling that Anet figured that people would be doing it anyways cause players generaly do follow the story line and forgot that people could actually lose interest in it….and so it becomes a drag.

If you have sparklies in your eyes and believe the shinies that Anet puts in front of you, there is no problem. If you want a little more depth in your experience here, there just isn’t much to go around. It’s all about the game balance, or rather economy instead of looking at what makes a meaningful experience.

BlueZone.4236:

Vayne.8563:

BlueZone.4236:

Vayne.8563:

Still has nothing to do with backpeddling.

All the manifesto says is that there will be fun stuff to do up front. That’s it. It never says you’ll never have to put effort into getting something.

Take dungeon tokens. Been in the game since day 1. If you want to get a full set of armor from a dungeon that’s a whole lot of runs. But that has nothing to do with having to grind to get to the fun stuff. Because you can run the dungeon once.

This isn’t any difference. You don’t need to do that content. It’s an option. If you like it, and you find it worth it, you’ll do it. If you don’t find it worth it you won’t. The amount of “grind” unquote to get those tickets is neglible considering everything drops them. I got three of them doing a fractal run today.

But it still has zero to do with the manifesto.

The manifesto is a general statement about the game, not a specific discussion of any single aspect of it. You’re picking one temporary two week content that was never conceived before the manifesto.

Have you ever played Guild Wars 1. Are you saying 9 rings wasn’t a grind?

Playing different aspects of the game is optional. So what?
Doing grind to continuously access the gauntlet is a requirement.
Your dungeon token argument makes zero sense. It’s not like dungeon tokens are a requirement to access certain parts of a dungeon. But this is akin to what the gauntlet requirement is.

If your argument was they conceived the gauntlet requirement prior to the manifest, that would make sense. Since it’s after, they clearly think “grinding to get to fun stuff” is now okay.

I disagree. The manifesto doesn’t say there won’t be fun stuff that you have to work to get to. It simply says there will be fun stuff up front. There’s no guarantee there that says ALL fun stuff will instantly attainable.

At any rate, it’s still not a grind. If you play the game normally for bit, you’ll get plenty of those tickets…and gears to buy tickets with.

I guess you haven’t seen how accessible a lot of the major previous content was, then? (EDIT: I am talking about “fun stuff” to do, not gear if you’re going to argue that)

At any rate, a grind for the gauntlet is still a grind for the gauntlet, regardless if you are easily distracted by other carrots.

And all this, even if it is is grind is still not relevant to my point. The point is only that there would be fun stuff to do early on. Not that there would never be anything to work towards.

Gehenna.3625:

BlueZone.4236:

Playing different aspects of the game is optional. So what?
Doing grind to continuously access the gauntlet is a requirement.
Your dungeon token argument makes zero sense. It’s not like dungeon tokens are a requirement to access certain parts of a dungeon. But this is akin to what the gauntlet requirement is.

Grind is not a defined quantity as some seem to think. It’s personal. Different people get bored or feel something is repetitious at different points. So if you find it grindy and another doesn’t both can be right.

For myself I know there is repetition in any game and that’s ok. But did they get the balance right so it doesn’t feel like chore? Again, it’s personal but I feel the balance is off and they sold this game as not feeling grindy, knowing that a lot of people would feel differently.

Part of the issue is also the reward system. For me the balance between effort and reward is key. Effort is measured by time, challenge and repetition. Reward is what you get as a result as in the sense of completion, fun of the activity and the actual reward.

The problem I see with GW2 is that the lack if difficulty makes any reward feel less valuable. It’s like the 16 year old american kid who gets a car for his b-day and crashes it the next day. You don’t value what comes easy as much as something you work for.

Also the rewards themselves tend to be ok-ish but not much really makes me go wow, I want that. There is some improvement but stats don’t matter so much and the skins are often ugly so there’s not much to really go for.

Then story missions give crap rewards as well. I have the feeling that Anet figured that people would be doing it anyways cause players generaly do follow the story line and forgot that people could actually lose interest in it….and so it becomes a drag.

If you have sparklies in your eyes and believe the shinies that Anet puts in front of you, there is no problem. If you want a little more depth in your experience here, there just isn’t much to go around. It’s all about the game balance, or rather economy instead of looking at what makes a meaningful experience.

You accuse me of being dismissive of people, yet you use lines like “if you have sparklies in your eeys and believe the shinies Anet puts in front of you…but if you want a little more depth.”

You’re implying people who like the game don’t want depth and are simply blinded by sparklies. You’re doing the very thing you’re accusing me of.

Comment removed.

I can see what will happen.

And I was right.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

This thread needs to die. It is not constructive, hasn’t been constructive, has not evolved into being constructive.

I think constructive things have come out of this thread. I think that if people cease personal assaults, constructive things could continue to come out of this thread.

I posted an honest thread to answer a criticism that put to bed at least one major comment people were making about the manifesto.

Another thread was also merged into this thread about the manifesto more generally.

The thread doesn’t need to be closed. People need to stick to the issue and not get personal.

Vayne.8563:

Trajan.4953:

IndigoSundown.5419:

From the:

“Guild Wars 2 Design Manifesto
by Mike O’Brien on April 27, 2010

It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.

- Mike O’Brien"

So, what future fun reward is this referring to? The optional rewards like titles and achievements all required a ton of grind in GW. Most of the unique skins were gated behind RNG so severe that most people who tried to farm them devised solo farming builds to remove the chances someone else might get the drop. The only exception came with the chests implemented in EotN and added to UW and FoW, and those were still low chance RNG. Mini-pets? Those were time gated in GW. By extension, one can infer that “our games aren’t about grinding for a future fun reward” cannot be referring to any of the above.

What do other games offer as fun rewards that people grind for? What are people going to think of when they read this paragraph? What could he be referring to if it’s not better gear?

I think, and I may be wrong, but that A-Net is trying to design their game around the actual experience of the game to get to the reward. The problem, inherently is that most MMO players have been trained that the reward, and only the reward, is what’s important, and the best way to get said reward is by the fastest most efficient means possible.

jmho.

I agree with this.

That’s all well and good, but you’re both dodging the question.

What you’re implying is that experiencing the game is supposed to be fun. Well, that is really not relevant to distinguishing ANet games from other games. Other developers are designing their gear chases around actually playing their games as well. While game management may be thinking about slowing players down, I will guarantee you that any developer who cares about what they are doing is trying to program content s/he hopes will be perceived as fun. Management cares about that too, because if a player perceives they are having fun, they’re more likely to stick around.

Grind may have a meaning that one can look up online, but the meanings of words evolve. The availability of mass media guarantees that at least some words will evolve at speeds that would have boggled minds during the age of enlightenment. Saying something like, “Well, grind means x because I can link something saying that’s the definition.” is futile. Grind in an online game is inherently a subjective thing, because it is experienced, and different people are going to “feel” differently about different things. The current definition may very well be closer to, “Repetitive play that I don’t like but do to get the outcome.” than anything you can read on an online resource.

What is relevant — at least to this discussion — is what Mike O’Brien meant when he wrote the manifesto. Which means that what he meant by “grinding for a future fun reward” is also relevant.

So, what did he mean?

Vayne.8563:

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

This thread needs to die. It is not constructive, hasn’t been constructive, has not evolved into being constructive.

I think constructive things have come out of this thread. I think that if people cease personal assaults, constructive things could continue to come out of this thread.

The definition of a troll posted by you could be considered baiting others in and of itself. I certainly don’t consider myself a troll. I posted an honest thread to answer a criticism that put to bed at least one major comment people were making about the manifesto.

Another thread was also merged into this thread about the manifesto more generally.

The thread doesn’t need to be closed. People need to stick to the issue and not get personal.

FYI, the definition of “Trolling” I posted, not “a troll” as you misstate above, is out of Websters, and is the definition of the fishing activity. Trolling is still a fishing technique and terminology. Fishermen who use the technique are trollers, not “Trolls”.

Just used it as an illustration of the capability of people to take a word and apply their own contextual definition to it, regardless of intent or original definition. It was not aimed at anyone, the definition is innocuous, and the post made with no intent otherwise.

Cura te ipsum

@Vayne

The people that keep bringing up this manifesto are type that don’t really care about logic. I mean for 2 years before the release of the game, they were multiple documents that showed how different the game will be and they simply ignore it.

The type that keeps bringing it up know they have no real argument and are holding onto something that is no longer relevant to Arenanet or to the reality of the current game state.

This is the nature of the genre, just ask EQ1 players how they feel about EQ2. A lot of the vocal ones thing it is the worst thing ever done and ever years after still believe that. The manifesto was only relevant to small fraction of the gw1 fanbase and most of them probably quit a long time ago. I remember a few quitting because the combat skills did not have an auto follow like in gw1 and you had to be active.

So fighting this battle is ultimately pointless, you don’t see arenanet worry about it why should you?

Trajan.4953:

Vayne.8563:

Trajan.4953:

Whats funny is the word “Manifesto”. I have been involved in many companies doing start-ups and a manifesto is a good starting point, having said that, in the real world, things like manifestos and Business Plans change by necessity. The fact that so many, especially GW1 players, are clinging to an introductory set of words seems a trifle strange.

To be fair, it was a very well done video that called to the heart of what people like me hated about MMOs. And I really think Anet believed when they wrote it they could completely change the landscape. But they didn’t count on player reaction to what they were doing.

So they open the game, thinking everyone will be fine with purely cosmetic rewards…but that wasn’t the case. Most people weren’t fine with it…though the GW 1 fans certainly were.

So Anet made a compromise..that being ascended gear. They’ve said that ascended gear was always supposed to be in the game, and maybe that’s a bit of spin. I suspect that it was supposed to be in the game, but not in its current form. We’ll never know for sure.

But we do know that Anet had hard data about how many people maxed out their gear and left. They made decisions based on this as any company would. It definitely represented a change in direction. It definitely doesn’t mean the manifesto was a lie. Most of it is still completely true…if misunderstood.

I feel it has been “adjusted” to meet the needs of the player base that they have data on that we can’t even begin to imagine.

Ascended gear had a rocky start but seems to have leveled out since there are other ways to obtain it apart from fractals, everyone is happy, well not everyone…

A-Net made a AAA title with their own engine (not a cheap undertaking), they had to appeal to a wider audience than just GW1 players, though they are trying. I feel they have made some mistakes but nobody, and I mean NOBODY, tries to appease the playerbase like A-Net.

The Manifesto is, as you say, a well done video and it has appealed to many and largely remains true to form, but cannot be taken as canon 3 years after the fact.

jmho

This is also why they are not working on an expansion I think. Given how their original plan of making a fun game with DE to do did not work out, they are still trying to find their bearings for things that WILL work out in the real world. Which is why the rewards currently suck because they thought people played MMORPG for the fun and not for the loot.

To the masses that play an MMORPG content is loot. Content is nothing more than a vehicle to get more loot, which is why I other parts of the world (Crystal desert and Elona) when from being a sure thing at release to uncertain status. No point making content when players ONLY seem to want rewards and the content will go unused. Open world content is simply exist for leveling. Ultimately, loot is all that matter to the majority of MMORPG players, sadly.

Having no data to back me up, I cannot say what matters most to the majority of players. I think (opinion only) that it is not as simple as “loot is all that matters” or “content and having fun is all that matters.” It seems to me that it is a more complex combination. I like loot as well as the next person. I will not engage in activities that I do not enjoy in order to get loot…had enough of that in other games.

With regard to the famous (or to some “infamous”) Manifesto…I watched it a number of times before release and frankly it helped to influence me to purchase and play the game. I have not been disappointed at all. Are things different in some respects than I envisioned in the beginning? Of course. Some better…maybe some worse…but in general, from my own perspective with my own preferences, it seems to hold up pretty well.

The reason that the Manifesto still works for me is that I came to GW2 after some consideration because I was unhappy with the other MMOs that I had tried and played…some for long periods of time. The key points in the Manifesto really “spoke” to me in terms of the things that I did not like about the other games. And true to my expectations, the things that were important to me have played out well in GW2.

GW2 is different in some ways and not so different in other ways.

Everybody will have their own interpretation of the Manifesto, as the terminology based in the Manefisto are things that are completely open to personal interpretation.

People can call other people ignorant but in the end it’s just a different opinion based on a different frame of reference.

Now I got myself caught into a big discussion and I do apologise for that. All I can say is that I’ve done my best to avoid replying to the other person involved since the mods rightfully took out the posts involved.

The bottom line for me is though that nobody can prove anything. There is no scientific fact or legal document to prove anybody right. We can only see that the Manifesto was worded in a way that brought out lots of emotion and sadly still does. It has been years and the opinions haven’t really changed and never will, because it’s everybody’s personal interpretation in the end. There is no proving wrong or right.

Some will say this game is a breath of fresh air and is exactly what it promised to be and others will see it’s the biggest lie a company ever made. Interestingly enough both can be right at the same time. Just not right for each other.

And it just shows how much it was open for interpretation, because years later it’s still being discussed and still not resolved.

My view is that there is nothing to resolve and everybody is right in his opinion about it and just cannot expect other people to look at it the same way. There is no evidence in this matter, just opinion.

So is this game grindy? For me yes, but more to the point of boredom than hard work and I will add that I don’t always see grind as bad. I’ve seen worse grind.
Is this game heroic? Not for me. Poor story telling, horrible voice acting…Not heroic for me.
Did this game take what I liked from GW1 and put it into a persistent world? Not for me.
Is the combat exciting? No, not for me. Too much dodge and auto attack. There are expections, just not enough. The depth that does exist in the combat system is basically optional.

So, for a casual game to play between other games or for just a little something different to do… sure I play this game from time to time.

Is this a game that will ever be my main game like GW1 was for me for 6 years? Obviously no.

See, that’s my opinion. That’s how I feel the Manifesto didn’t represent the atual game.

And you cannot disprove that I feel that way, cause it is just that: an opinion.

Elothar.4382:

Having no data to back me up, I cannot say what matters most to the majority of players. I think (opinion only) that it is not as simple as “loot is all that matters” or “content and having fun is all that matters.” It seems to me that it is a more complex combination. I like loot as well as the next person. I will not engage in activities that I do not enjoy in order to get loot…had enough of that in other games.

With regard to the famous (or to some “infamous”) Manifesto…I watched it a number of times before release and frankly it helped to influence me to purchase and play the game. I have not been disappointed at all. Are things different in some respects than I envisioned in the beginning? Of course. Some better…maybe some worse…but in general, from my own perspective with my own preferences, it seems to hold up pretty well.

The reason that the Manifesto still works for me is that I came to GW2 after some consideration because I was unhappy with the other MMOs that I had tried and played…some for long periods of time. The key points in the Manifesto really “spoke” to me in terms of the things that I did not like about the other games. And true to my expectations, the things that were important to me have played out well in GW2.

I get the feeling this was directed at me and let me respond.

Just look at how the game has been progression this past year. Nobody bothered with South Cove until they included the 200% mf and what happen after they took it away? Nobody bothers with SCove anymore. The inclusion of Ascended armor, the new changes to dungeon loot and the inclusion champions loot. The point being people only seem to be focusing only on lewt (except maybe WvW and Spvp to some degree).

Anyways, most changes in PvE have been mainly about LOOT.

In a way you are right, I have no direct evidence that it is about loot, but I can infer based on the changes to the game that loot seems to be the biggest motivator for most PvEers.

Gehenna.3625:

snip

Good for you for coming to that realization.

You are right, the manifesto could have been interpreted in a lot of ways. I personally feel that my interpretation was pretty close, but I digress

With that said, most of the pro-manifesto betray me or lie to me crowd I think are confused. What I mean is they expected guild wars 2 to capture the feeling of guild wars 1, most of the argument from the detractors seem to be entirely based on that premise.

Anybody that has been around long enough know that nothing can ever replicate a feeling; to me it is similar to when the older folks wish for the good old days like the 50s. The reality is times have change, things change and people change, no matter how much you try you cannot replicate a feeling. It is the same thing you get from EQ1 players they always wish for that magic that existed when MMO first appeal it wont happen. Or the magic of christmas before you found out its truth face (no santa and a commercialism attached to it).

Another thing most of the “OMG manifesto lied to US” crowd tend to miss is that the manifesto doesn’t account for taste you can simply not like the package or implementation of stuff (and it has a lot of issues in implementation). You can simply not like the end result of the game.

I just want to add that, you seem to say you will never play gw2 for 6 years like guild wars 1, what you also fail to realize is that the market is entirely different from 8 years ago. Eight years ago you did not have this much choices in MMO. You have a wide variety of MMO, we are reaching a point where you an almost find an active MMO that appeals specifically to your taste as compared to 8 years ago. i like guild wars 2, but I aint playing this game for 4+ years and if I do; I will quit the genre because that means it hasn’t progressed.

silvermember.8941:

This is also why they are not working on an expansion I think. Given how their original plan of making a fun game with DE to do did not work out, they are still trying to find their bearings for things that WILL work out in the real world. Which is why the rewards currently suck because they thought people played MMORPG for the fun and not for the loot.

To the masses that play an MMORPG content is loot. Content is nothing more than a vehicle to get more loot, which is why I other parts of the world (Crystal desert and Elona) when from being a sure thing at release to uncertain status. No point making content when players ONLY seem to want rewards and the content will go unused. Open world content is simply exist for leveling. Ultimately, loot is all that matter to the majority of MMORPG players, sadly.

Hah, I never agree with you, but I have just made a new topic to say basically the same thing. I think the dynamic events have failed, because most players don’t care about that kind of content; they just want loot.

Is this thread a joke? All I see is Vanye Vanye Vanye. No Dev clarification either.
At what point do they consider a poster guilty of Spamming and then lock a thread on those grounds too? Why have posting Standards at all if they’re not going to be enforced consistently?

Look at the top of this page for instance. …anyone else who was caught BACK TO BACK TO BACK “Chain” replying would be infracted for it.

ilr.9675:

Is this thread a joke? All I see is Vanye Vanye Vanye. No Dev clarification either.
At what point do they consider a poster guilty of Spamming and then lock a thread on those grounds too? Why have posting Standards at all if they’re not going to be enforced consistently?

Why would the developers bother with a thread like this. The funny thing is if you go on the link the one of the posters in that clarification is YOU.

Anyways, the developer responding to something that is not relevant to most of but a few players is not in their best interest. They gain nothing from posting in this topic, most of the people that still bother talking about the manifesto probably moved on a long time ago.

Even after they posted the clarification, you still ignore it, why should they bother. They already know no matter what they say, the people like you reject it. If you still havent come to turns with AFTER 3 years, I doubt you will EVER come to turns with it.

Vayne.8563:

BlueZone.4236:

Vayne.8563:

BlueZone.4236:

Vayne.8563:

Still has nothing to do with backpeddling.

All the manifesto says is that there will be fun stuff to do up front. That’s it. It never says you’ll never have to put effort into getting something.

Take dungeon tokens. Been in the game since day 1. If you want to get a full set of armor from a dungeon that’s a whole lot of runs. But that has nothing to do with having to grind to get to the fun stuff. Because you can run the dungeon once.

This isn’t any difference. You don’t need to do that content. It’s an option. If you like it, and you find it worth it, you’ll do it. If you don’t find it worth it you won’t. The amount of “grind” unquote to get those tickets is neglible considering everything drops them. I got three of them doing a fractal run today.

But it still has zero to do with the manifesto.

The manifesto is a general statement about the game, not a specific discussion of any single aspect of it. You’re picking one temporary two week content that was never conceived before the manifesto.

Have you ever played Guild Wars 1. Are you saying 9 rings wasn’t a grind?

Playing different aspects of the game is optional. So what?
Doing grind to continuously access the gauntlet is a requirement.
Your dungeon token argument makes zero sense. It’s not like dungeon tokens are a requirement to access certain parts of a dungeon. But this is akin to what the gauntlet requirement is.

If your argument was they conceived the gauntlet requirement prior to the manifest, that would make sense. Since it’s after, they clearly think “grinding to get to fun stuff” is now okay.

I disagree. The manifesto doesn’t say there won’t be fun stuff that you have to work to get to. It simply says there will be fun stuff up front. There’s no guarantee there that says ALL fun stuff will instantly attainable.

At any rate, it’s still not a grind. If you play the game normally for bit, you’ll get plenty of those tickets…and gears to buy tickets with.

I guess you haven’t seen how accessible a lot of the major previous content was, then? (EDIT: I am talking about “fun stuff” to do, not gear if you’re going to argue that)

At any rate, a grind for the gauntlet is still a grind for the gauntlet, regardless if you are easily distracted by other carrots.

And all this, even if it is is grind is still not relevant to my point. The point is only that there would be fun stuff to do early on. Not that there would never be anything to work towards.

Again, working towards grinding for gear is not the same as grinding for fun stuff to do.
Locking activities via grinding for admission tickets (be it sprockets + coins, drops) still requires “grinding to get to the fun stuff”.
In this game, what is the “fun stuff” after grinding to obtain gear? Nothing; Only looks.
What is the “fun stuff” after grinding for gauntlet tickets? The gauntlet (ie. the fun stuff)

Here’s the proper quote from the video:

In most games, you go out, and you have really fun tasks, occasionally, that you get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. ‘I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again.’ That’s great. We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun. We want to change the way that people view combat.

Nothing to say like “initially” or “in the beginning”. Any player can tell you that the first sentence is true and is NOT restricted to the start of the game.
From the key word “occasionally”, you can tell the context is not restricted to the start of the game as well. In some games, it’s level requirements (+ absurd xp requirement get to that level), other games it’s gear grind. It’s the same thing under a different dressing.
With respect to the gauntlet in GW2, guess what’s the fastest way to get the tickets…?
Saying there are alternative activities doesn’t change the fact that the gauntlet still requires grinding for continuous admission.

To go back to my first post in this thread, this is probably the start of them re-introducing grind to get to the fun stuff. What a shame.

The problem the devs are experiencing is the world is just too big. Leveling is too easy. I’m sure mining through their “Big Data” of how we are playing shows them numerous zones where players simply don’t spend a lot of time in. One way to fix that is by putting in special loot in those areas as the quickest way to get the population to go there (re: balloons with chests).

2nd is making activity in that area a daily. Remind players what was awesome about that zone. Plus specifying an activity gets us to congregate in one spot. It could be dailies or boss fights.

3rd, why do you think they published an API that makes event timers 100% accurate? So players can all turn up in one spot rather than wander about hoping to see someone. Players want to see other players. It acts as a confirmation that the game isn’t dead.

So the LW is a way to drive players to different areas of the world, areas we may have only been to once or not at all if you aren’t much of an explorer. This month it’s Divinity’s Reach and around the world for balloon chests. Last month a bunch of mini games and challenges. Tease us with unique skins and we’ll go anywhere.

silvermember.8941:

Elothar.4382:

Having no data to back me up, I cannot say what matters most to the majority of players. I think (opinion only) that it is not as simple as “loot is all that matters” or “content and having fun is all that matters.” It seems to me that it is a more complex combination. I like loot as well as the next person. I will not engage in activities that I do not enjoy in order to get loot…had enough of that in other games.

With regard to the famous (or to some “infamous”) Manifesto…I watched it a number of times before release and frankly it helped to influence me to purchase and play the game. I have not been disappointed at all. Are things different in some respects than I envisioned in the beginning? Of course. Some better…maybe some worse…but in general, from my own perspective with my own preferences, it seems to hold up pretty well.

The reason that the Manifesto still works for me is that I came to GW2 after some consideration because I was unhappy with the other MMOs that I had tried and played…some for long periods of time. The key points in the Manifesto really “spoke” to me in terms of the things that I did not like about the other games. And true to my expectations, the things that were important to me have played out well in GW2.

I get the feeling this was directed at me and let me respond.

Just look at how the game has been progression this past year. Nobody bothered with South Cove until they included the 200% mf and what happen after they took it away? Nobody bothers with SCove anymore. The inclusion of Ascended armor, the new changes to dungeon loot and the inclusion champions loot. The point being people only seem to be focusing only on lewt (except maybe WvW and Spvp to some degree).

Anyways, most changes in PvE have been mainly about LOOT.

In a way you are right, I have no direct evidence that it is about loot, but I can infer based on the changes to the game that loot seems to be the biggest motivator for most PvEers.

Not at all…was not really directed at anyone in particular. My apologies if it came across that way. My point with that first paragraph was really that my offering was based only on my personal observation and opinion and should be considered that way.

Your points are certainly well taken although I am still not convinced that the majority feel that way…at least not to the absolute extent (loot is all that matters). While I probably refer back to WoW more than I should (it is my longest experience with an MMO), there is ample evidence in WoW of people willing to do just about anything for loot. But I also see a lot of people (many of my friends) migrating to GW2 specifically because of that…the desire to spend more time on thing we like. Now…granted…it is fantastic if great loot drops from the things we like doing anyway. But the difference here in GW2 seems to be that, if I do not want to do an activity that offers great loot, I can pass on it with the confidence that it will not adversely impact my ability to enjoy the game.

As for Southsun, I certainly cannot dispute you since I spent little time there – killed the Karka Queen once and did some of the events in the beginning. It didn’t take long, though, until it seemed like there was little over there that was really fun so I went elsewhere and did something else. Again…important to note that this is just me…and I speak for no one else.

The point about PVE changes being mostly about loot…well…yeah…ya got me on that one. But still, back to my original intent with the post – I do not really feel misled by the Manifesto. Not everything has worked out exactly as they envisioned but I chalk this up more to enthusiastic and committed developers and artists than to deliberate misspeaking. To be sure, there is a certain amount of puffery in the Anet promotion – generally characteristic of most marketing communication efforts. I tend to overlook much of this as I overlook the puffery in just about every promotion campaign.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

Trajan.4953:

IndigoSundown.5419:

From the:

“Guild Wars 2 Design Manifesto
by Mike O’Brien on April 27, 2010

It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.

- Mike O’Brien"

So, what future fun reward is this referring to? The optional rewards like titles and achievements all required a ton of grind in GW. Most of the unique skins were gated behind RNG so severe that most people who tried to farm them devised solo farming builds to remove the chances someone else might get the drop. The only exception came with the chests implemented in EotN and added to UW and FoW, and those were still low chance RNG. Mini-pets? Those were time gated in GW. By extension, one can infer that “our games aren’t about grinding for a future fun reward” cannot be referring to any of the above.

What do other games offer as fun rewards that people grind for? What are people going to think of when they read this paragraph? What could he be referring to if it’s not better gear?

I think, and I may be wrong, but that A-Net is trying to design their game around the actual experience of the game to get to the reward. The problem, inherently is that most MMO players have been trained that the reward, and only the reward, is what’s important, and the best way to get said reward is by the fastest most efficient means possible.

jmho.

I agree with this.

That’s all well and good, but you’re both dodging the question.

What you’re implying is that experiencing the game is supposed to be fun. Well, that is really not relevant to distinguishing ANet games from other games. Other developers are designing their gear chases around actually playing their games as well. While game management may be thinking about slowing players down, I will guarantee you that any developer who cares about what they are doing is trying to program content s/he hopes will be perceived as fun. Management cares about that too, because if a player perceives they are having fun, they’re more likely to stick around.

Grind may have a meaning that one can look up online, but the meanings of words evolve. The availability of mass media guarantees that at least some words will evolve at speeds that would have boggled minds during the age of enlightenment. Saying something like, “Well, grind means x because I can link something saying that’s the definition.” is futile. Grind in an online game is inherently a subjective thing, because it is experienced, and different people are going to “feel” differently about different things. The current definition may very well be closer to, “Repetitive play that I don’t like but do to get the outcome.” than anything you can read on an online resource.

What is relevant — at least to this discussion — is what Mike O’Brien meant when he wrote the manifesto. Which means that what he meant by “grinding for a future fun reward” is also relevant.

So, what did he mean?

What he’s saying is that other games aren’t fun until you hit level cap. If you’ve been around other MMOs, you’ll find that everyone hates leveling, that they do it to get through it. They look for the fastest way to do it…because it’s not fun. All the cool fights are later in the game.

That’s why the Shadow Behemoth is in the starter zone. And this isn’t some theory that I’ve just come up with. Colin said this straight out during in interview…at that time.

In trying to differentiate Guild Wars 2 from other games, they said that other games had one game you played while leveling and it became a completely different game at level cap. They didn’t want Guild Wars 2 to be like this. It’s the reason for downleveling. It’s the reason so many jumping puzzles are in early zones (there are three in Caledon Forest). It’s the reason there are dynamic events all over the place, with weird sorts of transmformations and weapons.

Compare this to the start of WoW and killing ten wolves that are standing in a field. It’s a very different feel. Leveling in most MMOs, the large majority it horrible.

Now MMOs have started improving this, but when the manifesto was published this was the rule.

Gehenna.3625:

GW2 is different in some ways and not so different in other ways.

Everybody will have their own interpretation of the Manifesto, as the terminology based in the Manefisto are things that are completely open to personal interpretation.

People can call other people ignorant but in the end it’s just a different opinion based on a different frame of reference.

Now I got myself caught into a big discussion and I do apologise for that. All I can say is that I’ve done my best to avoid replying to the other person involved since the mods rightfully took out the posts involved.

The bottom line for me is though that nobody can prove anything. There is no scientific fact or legal document to prove anybody right. We can only see that the Manifesto was worded in a way that brought out lots of emotion and sadly still does. It has been years and the opinions haven’t really changed and never will, because it’s everybody’s personal interpretation in the end. There is no proving wrong or right.

Some will say this game is a breath of fresh air and is exactly what it promised to be and others will see it’s the biggest lie a company ever made. Interestingly enough both can be right at the same time. Just not right for each other.

And it just shows how much it was open for interpretation, because years later it’s still being discussed and still not resolved.

My view is that there is nothing to resolve and everybody is right in his opinion about it and just cannot expect other people to look at it the same way. There is no evidence in this matter, just opinion.

So is this game grindy? For me yes, but more to the point of boredom than hard work and I will add that I don’t always see grind as bad. I’ve seen worse grind.
Is this game heroic? Not for me. Poor story telling, horrible voice acting…Not heroic for me.
Did this game take what I liked from GW1 and put it into a persistent world? Not for me.
Is the combat exciting? No, not for me. Too much dodge and auto attack. There are expections, just not enough. The depth that does exist in the combat system is basically optional.

So, for a casual game to play between other games or for just a little something different to do… sure I play this game from time to time.

Is this a game that will ever be my main game like GW1 was for me for 6 years? Obviously no.

See, that’s my opinion. That’s how I feel the Manifesto didn’t represent the atual game.

And you cannot disprove that I feel that way, cause it is just that: an opinion.

You’re right. We can’t prove anything.

But the manifesto wasn’t only clarified by one published clarification. It was talked about by Anet devs for quite a time after. The stuff I’m saying I didn’t pull out of the bottom drawer of my filing cabinet.

Colin did use the Shadow Behemoth as an example of fun things to do. Where is it? Why don’t I post it? Because I watched literally hundreds of videos and read hundreds of articles and you try finding one reference in one video at one convention two years later. It’s not worth my time. Either people believe me or they don’t.

They talked about what they meant about a lot of things. This isn’t something I’m just making up. I’m going to by Anet’s own explanation of what they meant.

Just as people forget that Eric Flannum said straight out there will be things to grind for for people who like that play style. Where did he say it? Was it in a Reddit AMA? Was it in a video interview from Gamescon? I don’t know…but I know he said it.

So I can’t provide quotes, because back then when I was watching, no one told me to index them. It doesn’t mean these things weren’t said.

BlueZone.4236:

Vayne.8563:

BlueZone.4236:

Vayne.8563:

BlueZone.4236:

Vayne.8563:

Still has nothing to do with backpeddling.

All the manifesto says is that there will be fun stuff to do up front. That’s it. It never says you’ll never have to put effort into getting something.

Take dungeon tokens. Been in the game since day 1. If you want to get a full set of armor from a dungeon that’s a whole lot of runs. But that has nothing to do with having to grind to get to the fun stuff. Because you can run the dungeon once.

This isn’t any difference. You don’t need to do that content. It’s an option. If you like it, and you find it worth it, you’ll do it. If you don’t find it worth it you won’t. The amount of “grind” unquote to get those tickets is neglible considering everything drops them. I got three of them doing a fractal run today.

But it still has zero to do with the manifesto.

The manifesto is a general statement about the game, not a specific discussion of any single aspect of it. You’re picking one temporary two week content that was never conceived before the manifesto.

Have you ever played Guild Wars 1. Are you saying 9 rings wasn’t a grind?

Playing different aspects of the game is optional. So what?
Doing grind to continuously access the gauntlet is a requirement.
Your dungeon token argument makes zero sense. It’s not like dungeon tokens are a requirement to access certain parts of a dungeon. But this is akin to what the gauntlet requirement is.

If your argument was they conceived the gauntlet requirement prior to the manifest, that would make sense. Since it’s after, they clearly think “grinding to get to fun stuff” is now okay.

I disagree. The manifesto doesn’t say there won’t be fun stuff that you have to work to get to. It simply says there will be fun stuff up front. There’s no guarantee there that says ALL fun stuff will instantly attainable.

At any rate, it’s still not a grind. If you play the game normally for bit, you’ll get plenty of those tickets…and gears to buy tickets with.

I guess you haven’t seen how accessible a lot of the major previous content was, then? (EDIT: I am talking about “fun stuff” to do, not gear if you’re going to argue that)

At any rate, a grind for the gauntlet is still a grind for the gauntlet, regardless if you are easily distracted by other carrots.

And all this, even if it is is grind is still not relevant to my point. The point is only that there would be fun stuff to do early on. Not that there would never be anything to work towards.

Again, working towards grinding for gear is not the same as grinding for fun stuff to do.
Locking activities via grinding for admission tickets (be it sprockets + coins, drops) still requires “grinding to get to the fun stuff”.
In this game, what is the “fun stuff” after grinding to obtain gear? Nothing; Only looks.
What is the “fun stuff” after grinding for gauntlet tickets? The gauntlet (ie. the fun stuff)

Here’s the proper quote from the video:

In most games, you go out, and you have really fun tasks, occasionally, that you get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. ‘I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again.’ That’s great. We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun. We want to change the way that people view combat.

Nothing to say like “initially” or “in the beginning”. Any player can tell you that the first sentence is true and is NOT restricted to the start of the game.
From the key word “occasionally”, you can tell the context is not restricted to the start of the game as well. In some games, it’s level requirements (+ absurd xp requirement get to that level), other games it’s gear grind. It’s the same thing under a different dressing.
With respect to the gauntlet in GW2, guess what’s the fastest way to get the tickets…?
Saying there are alternative activities doesn’t change the fact that the gauntlet still requires grinding for continuous admission.

To go back to my first post in this thread, this is probably the start of them re-introducing grind to get to the fun stuff. What a shame.

15 sprockets get you 5 tickets. Tickets drop from other stuff as well. If this is grind, you need to get out and play some other MMOs.

ilr.9675:

Is this thread a joke? All I see is Vanye Vanye Vanye. No Dev clarification either.
At what point do they consider a poster guilty of Spamming and then lock a thread on those grounds too? Why have posting Standards at all if they’re not going to be enforced consistently?

Look at the top of this page for instance. …anyone else who was caught BACK TO BACK TO BACK “Chain” replying would be infracted for it.

I’m answering different people with different posts. It’s easier for me to organize that way. It’s less work. Since I do post a lot, and since it’s not against the rules, there’s no problem with it.

If it was against the rules I’d probably post less. But it’s not.

ilr.9675:

Is this thread a joke? All I see is Vanye Vanye Vanye. No Dev clarification either.
At what point do they consider a poster guilty of Spamming and then lock a thread on those grounds too? Why have posting Standards at all if they’re not going to be enforced consistently?

Look at the top of this page for instance. …anyone else who was caught BACK TO BACK TO BACK “Chain” replying would be infracted for it.

I don’t think it’s spamming if someone is merely replying to some other’s post in a straight way…

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

@Vayne.
You wrote. “What he’s saying is that other games aren’t fun until you hit level cap. If you’ve been around other MMOs, you’ll find that everyone hates leveling, that they do it to get through it. They look for the fastest way to do it…because it’s not fun. All the cool fights are later in the game.”
end quote.

Absolutes? “everyone hates leveling”. No, not “everyone”. In fact, I can think of at least 4 games that allow you to turn off leveling exp in order to experience more low level content while it is still challenging. Personally, I have a level 43 character in Everquest2 that is 3 years old, simply because I chose to try and do all content in the game at the level intended on a single character, and there is a lot of it. I don’t play that character exclusively, but she has been level locked a huge majority of the time.

Not “all” of the “cool fights” are just at end game, in any game.

GW allows players to experience low level “cool stuff” by level adjustment. Other games allow players to do so by level locking. Everquest2 allows a player to do so by mentoring, or by using an NPC to set your level to a desired one.

When discussing opinion, stating an absolute is generally invalid.

Kind of like stating that your opinion of what someone meant is absolutely what that person meant, in the absence of clarification by that person.

“This is the song that never ends, and it goes on and on my friends”

Let’s not talk about absolutes. Let’s talk about generalities instead. Since I don’t really believe in absolute truths, and since I’m one of the guys who dislikes end game content in other games, I got what Anet was saying…the same thing they said about end game content.

This game doesn’t really change at max level like other games do. In other games you explore the world and then you raid or PvP. And I hated it. I didn’t enjoy that at all. I didn’t want to raid, and I didn’t want to PvP but in just about every game the open world was crap at max level. Most of it was locked out.

They’re saying that this game is different and it is. I just don’t see how you can’t recognize it.

There are tons of people like me who wish games were more centered on the open world and not dungeon instances. I’m not alone here. And that’s the demographic Anet was trying to reach with the manifesto.

The fun stuff can start early. I’ve heard a whole lot of people say the leveling experience in this game was more fun than the leveling experience in most MMOs. Not all people, but a whole lot of them.

And that’s what he’s talking about. Fun stuff to do right away. And some of that stuff is/was fun. But of course fun is a matter of opinion.

It’s still a very different experience leveling here than in most MMOs. And Anet made a five minute video, about 30 seconds of which was set aside to explain that. People can say anything they want, but 30 seconds to explain what I just did is tough. They did a pretty good job…at least I understood what was being said…and so did other people.

Unfortunately Colin used the word grind and the multiple definitions of that word set everyone’s mind in different directions.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

@Vayne. I will reply to this singular statement you made.

“They’re saying that this game is different and it is. I just don’t see how you can’t recognize it.” end quote.

That is my issue. I don’t see enough real difference. I’ve leveled 8 chars to 80, not in any hurry to do so, but mainly out of boredom once I hit 80. I find no challenge in playing a downleveled character. I found the rise to 80 to be too fast, too unavoidable, too streamlined. At 80, I found the game to be just as “grindy” as any other MMO I have ever played, in different ways, but still a “grind” by my definition of doing the same tasks, over and over, day after day. I have not found the “Living” stories to be any respite from that grind, and in fact found them to be just added “grind” on a timer.

I don’t see the Manifesto as anything but what it was, but, I did find it exciting at the time it was made, and a possible new direction for MMOs. What I found, personally, in game was anything but that.. New mechanics, new methods, but in the end, a faster rush to level 80 than ever before, and less to do there than ever before. That is my opinion. That is why I am only playing GW2 30 mins a day rather than 4-5 hours. That is why the funds I would have spent on Gems were spent, instead, on an expansion for another game that did guarantee fresh, new overland content that would not be exhausted in a month’s time.

You cannot force me to see, interpret, experience what you do. My perception of how much they succeeded in matching game to manifesto “spirit” is dramatically opposed to yours, and will not change given the current direction of the game.

I am not saying ANET failed. I will say, they are failing for me. Not much you can say, define, link, no semantics will change that. That is the bottom line. Unfortunate, because I do love the Art, the world, and my Norn.

Yes, Anet failed for you. 100% true. Because you came to this game looking for something it’s not. You want some uber challenge at level 80 to keep you playing. You say things like there’s no reason to go back to early zones. And for you that’s true.

But this is where I feel the manifesto was talking to people like me. I do things for fun, not reward. I look and explore and always find new stuff in early zones. I turn off my map markers and try to complete zones that way. More typical old school RPG stuff.

I don’t care about a boss, or about loot. Well, that’s not 100% true. I don’t care enough about them. Sure I like getting loot, everyone does, but my game isn’t centered around loot. And Anet, in the manifesto, they didn’t talk about loot either. They talked about having fun things to do.

Now if you don’t find those things fun to do that’s fair enough…but it’s what the game is about. Fun things to do. Hence mini games. For a lot of people those are fun things to do. I think Anet was stunned by the percentage of people who play just for reward…because in Guild Wars 1 that was a vast minority. People played that game for years…I know I did. Five years. And I repeated a lot of stuff that would be in the equivalent of the open world. That’s what I wanted from this game. That’s what I got from this game.

Anet was tailored to people like me…and I believe we’re a bigger demographic than most people think we are. Clearly a lot of people play like me, because I’ve asked in the forums. I had a thread about it. We were the red-headed step children of MMOs. We didn’t care about another PvP arena or even a new dungeon. We only cared about the world.

And many of us, though we like the occasional challenge, don’t need to be constantly challenged. We’re a different demographic. In my opinion we’re the people the game was made for.

To some that makes me sound like a fan boy, because finally, some developers get what I wanted from an MMO. But I asked for these things long before the manifesto came out. Anet is just approaching the game from the point of view of people who play like me.

It’s why I feel like I “got” the manifesto and others may not have. I don’t think they’re on the same page. But the manifesto is true to me, because for the most part, Anet delivered what they said they would.

Gehenna.3625:

GW2 is different in some ways and not so different in other ways.

Everybody will have their own interpretation of the Manifesto, as the terminology based in the Manefisto are things that are completely open to personal interpretation.

People can call other people ignorant but in the end it’s just a different opinion based on a different frame of reference.

Now I got myself caught into a big discussion and I do apologise for that. All I can say is that I’ve done my best to avoid replying to the other person involved since the mods rightfully took out the posts involved.

The bottom line for me is though that nobody can prove anything. There is no scientific fact or legal document to prove anybody right. We can only see that the Manifesto was worded in a way that brought out lots of emotion and sadly still does. It has been years and the opinions haven’t really changed and never will, because it’s everybody’s personal interpretation in the end. There is no proving wrong or right.

Some will say this game is a breath of fresh air and is exactly what it promised to be and others will see it’s the biggest lie a company ever made. Interestingly enough both can be right at the same time. Just not right for each other.

And it just shows how much it was open for interpretation, because years later it’s still being discussed and still not resolved.

My view is that there is nothing to resolve and everybody is right in his opinion about it and just cannot expect other people to look at it the same way. There is no evidence in this matter, just opinion.

So is this game grindy? For me yes, but more to the point of boredom than hard work and I will add that I don’t always see grind as bad. I’ve seen worse grind.
Is this game heroic? Not for me. Poor story telling, horrible voice acting…Not heroic for me.
Did this game take what I liked from GW1 and put it into a persistent world? Not for me.
Is the combat exciting? No, not for me. Too much dodge and auto attack. There are expections, just not enough. The depth that does exist in the combat system is basically optional.

So, for a casual game to play between other games or for just a little something different to do… sure I play this game from time to time.

Is this a game that will ever be my main game like GW1 was for me for 6 years? Obviously no.

See, that’s my opinion. That’s how I feel the Manifesto didn’t represent the atual game.

And you cannot disprove that I feel that way, cause it is just that: an opinion.

Bravo Sir!

Vayne.8563:

BlueZone.4236:

Vayne.8563:

BlueZone.4236:

Vayne.8563:

I disagree. The manifesto doesn’t say there won’t be fun stuff that you have to work to get to. It simply says there will be fun stuff up front. There’s no guarantee there that says ALL fun stuff will instantly attainable.

At any rate, it’s still not a grind. If you play the game normally for bit, you’ll get plenty of those tickets…and gears to buy tickets with.

I guess you haven’t seen how accessible a lot of the major previous content was, then? (EDIT: I am talking about “fun stuff” to do, not gear if you’re going to argue that)

At any rate, a grind for the gauntlet is still a grind for the gauntlet, regardless if you are easily distracted by other carrots.

And all this, even if it is is grind is still not relevant to my point. The point is only that there would be fun stuff to do early on. Not that there would never be anything to work towards.

Again, working towards grinding for gear is not the same as grinding for fun stuff to do.
Locking activities via grinding for admission tickets (be it sprockets + coins, drops) still requires “grinding to get to the fun stuff”.
In this game, what is the “fun stuff” after grinding to obtain gear? Nothing; Only looks.
What is the “fun stuff” after grinding for gauntlet tickets? The gauntlet (ie. the fun stuff)

Here’s the proper quote from the video:

In most games, you go out, and you have really fun tasks, occasionally, that you get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. ‘I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again.’ That’s great. We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun. We want to change the way that people view combat.

Nothing to say like “initially” or “in the beginning”. Any player can tell you that the first sentence is true and is NOT restricted to the start of the game.
From the key word “occasionally”, you can tell the context is not restricted to the start of the game as well. In some games, it’s level requirements (+ absurd xp requirement get to that level), other games it’s gear grind. It’s the same thing under a different dressing.
With respect to the gauntlet in GW2, guess what’s the fastest way to get the tickets…?
Saying there are alternative activities doesn’t change the fact that the gauntlet still requires grinding for continuous admission.

To go back to my first post in this thread, this is probably the start of them re-introducing grind to get to the fun stuff. What a shame.

15 sprockets get you 5 tickets. Tickets drop from other stuff as well. If this is grind, you need to get out and play some other MMOs.

This is not some other MMO. This is Guild Wars 2. And clearly you haven’t played the gauntlet or don’t enjoy it.
It’s 15 sprockets and 20 silvers. I’ve already gotten ~100 tickets from grinding and already burnt through them.
I’m sure many people have burnt many times more than that.
Without grind and purchasing it through the merchant using the TP for the sprockets, that’s just under 30g for 100 games.
You might not think that’s a lot of time to recover the cost, but for someone like me, that’s a lot of gold to burn and time to recover. Grinding for the tickets is faster, but clearly that is still grinding.
And let’s not forget the cost involved in WP after losing, time to run back, waiting in the queue…y’know, temporary content, huh.
Saying another MMO is requires comparatively more grind than this is an excuse to accept grind to get to the fun stuff. Clearly, you are ready to accept more grind just because MMO X, Y or Z had it worst.

BlueZone.4236:

Vayne.8563:

BlueZone.4236:

Vayne.8563:

BlueZone.4236:

Vayne.8563:

I disagree. The manifesto doesn’t say there won’t be fun stuff that you have to work to get to. It simply says there will be fun stuff up front. There’s no guarantee there that says ALL fun stuff will instantly attainable.

At any rate, it’s still not a grind. If you play the game normally for bit, you’ll get plenty of those tickets…and gears to buy tickets with.

I guess you haven’t seen how accessible a lot of the major previous content was, then? (EDIT: I am talking about “fun stuff” to do, not gear if you’re going to argue that)

At any rate, a grind for the gauntlet is still a grind for the gauntlet, regardless if you are easily distracted by other carrots.

And all this, even if it is is grind is still not relevant to my point. The point is only that there would be fun stuff to do early on. Not that there would never be anything to work towards.

Again, working towards grinding for gear is not the same as grinding for fun stuff to do.
Locking activities via grinding for admission tickets (be it sprockets + coins, drops) still requires “grinding to get to the fun stuff”.
In this game, what is the “fun stuff” after grinding to obtain gear? Nothing; Only looks.
What is the “fun stuff” after grinding for gauntlet tickets? The gauntlet (ie. the fun stuff)

Here’s the proper quote from the video:

In most games, you go out, and you have really fun tasks, occasionally, that you get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. ‘I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again.’ That’s great. We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun. We want to change the way that people view combat.

Nothing to say like “initially” or “in the beginning”. Any player can tell you that the first sentence is true and is NOT restricted to the start of the game.
From the key word “occasionally”, you can tell the context is not restricted to the start of the game as well. In some games, it’s level requirements (+ absurd xp requirement get to that level), other games it’s gear grind. It’s the same thing under a different dressing.
With respect to the gauntlet in GW2, guess what’s the fastest way to get the tickets…?
Saying there are alternative activities doesn’t change the fact that the gauntlet still requires grinding for continuous admission.

To go back to my first post in this thread, this is probably the start of them re-introducing grind to get to the fun stuff. What a shame.

15 sprockets get you 5 tickets. Tickets drop from other stuff as well. If this is grind, you need to get out and play some other MMOs.

This is not some other MMO. This is Guild Wars 2. And clearly you haven’t played the gauntlet or don’t enjoy it.
It’s 15 sprockets and 20 silvers. I’ve already gotten ~100 tickets from grinding and already burnt through them.
I’m sure many people have burnt many times more than that.
Without grind and purchasing it through the merchant using the TP for the sprockets, that’s just under 30g for 100 games.
You might not think that’s a lot of time to recover the cost, but for someone like me, that’s a lot of gold to burn and time to recover. Grinding for the tickets is faster, but clearly that is still grinding.
And let’s not forget the cost involved in WP after losing, time to run back, waiting in the queue…y’know, temporary content, huh.
Saying another MMO is requires comparatively more grind than this is an excuse to accept grind to get to the fun stuff. Clearly, you are ready to accept more grind just because MMO X, Y or Z had it worst.

What you’re doing is calling playing the game grinding. Playing the game is playing the game. The Gauntlet is part of the game. I’m on the sniper, tier 3. It’s here for two weeks. As I play the game and do stuff, whatever the stuff is, I get tickets. My character got five tickets for free.

Just in the course of normally doing stuff I had a hundred tickets and lord knows how many sprockets on the character I was using.

For me, it’s a bit tougher, because I have a ton of alts. So I’m not getting all tickets on one character. I don’t see why they were made soul bound instead of account bound. But aside from that,, these things drop.

You’re taking the word grind, and you’re applying it to a single instance of something that drops all the time. I don’t see anyone else saying getting tickets is a grind. And you may even FEEL like it’s a grind. But grinding levels in MMOs or grinding for a legendary…those things are grindy.

Getting tickets to do the gauntlet…not so much.

Seems to me that people feel if they have to actually play the game, they’re grinding.

Vayne.8563:

What you’re doing is calling playing the game grinding. Playing the game is playing the game. The Gauntlet is part of the game. I’m on the sniper, tier 3. It’s here for two weeks. As I play the game and do stuff, whatever the stuff is, I get tickets. My character got five tickets for free.

Just in the course of normally doing stuff I had a hundred tickets and lord knows how many sprockets on the character I was using.

For me, it’s a bit tougher, because I have a ton of alts. So I’m not getting all tickets on one character. I don’t see why they were made soul bound instead of account bound. But aside from that,, these things drop.

You’re taking the word grind, and you’re applying it to a single instance of something that drops all the time. I don’t see anyone else saying getting tickets is a grind. And you may even FEEL like it’s a grind. But grinding levels in MMOs or grinding for a legendary…those things are grindy.

Getting tickets to do the gauntlet…not so much.

Seems to me that people feel if they have to actually play the game, they’re grinding.

A person with only 10 coppers is poor. A person with only 1 gold is also poor.
No, sorry, the latter person isn’t poor because of the former. My bad.

Too bad the living story events like the gauntlet isn’t “normal stuff”. Oh wait, it is.
What I’m doing is grinding to get to the fun stuff. That stuff is currently the gauntlet.
Fun stuff becomes boring over time due to repetition, or do you not know that that happens to people?
Here is something new, challenging and refreshing (read: fun), so what’s the best way to get the tickets so I can play this fun stuff…?
Oh, play existing content that I’ve already done, instead of this fun stuff? Okay, makes sense.
If you are easily entertained by repeating the same content again and again, then more power to you.

Just saying something is less grindy doesn’t automatically change to mean not a grind.
That’s not how it works. Actually never mind, repetitively saying it’s not a grind does work.

BlueZone.4236:

Vayne.8563:

What you’re doing is calling playing the game grinding. Playing the game is playing the game. The Gauntlet is part of the game. I’m on the sniper, tier 3. It’s here for two weeks. As I play the game and do stuff, whatever the stuff is, I get tickets. My character got five tickets for free.

Just in the course of normally doing stuff I had a hundred tickets and lord knows how many sprockets on the character I was using.

For me, it’s a bit tougher, because I have a ton of alts. So I’m not getting all tickets on one character. I don’t see why they were made soul bound instead of account bound. But aside from that,, these things drop.

You’re taking the word grind, and you’re applying it to a single instance of something that drops all the time. I don’t see anyone else saying getting tickets is a grind. And you may even FEEL like it’s a grind. But grinding levels in MMOs or grinding for a legendary…those things are grindy.

Getting tickets to do the gauntlet…not so much.

Seems to me that people feel if they have to actually play the game, they’re grinding.

A person with only 10 coppers is poor. A person with only 1 gold is also poor.
No, sorry, the latter person isn’t poor because of the former. My bad.

Too bad the living story events like the gauntlet isn’t “normal stuff”. Oh wait, it is.
What I’m doing is grinding to get to the fun stuff. That stuff is currently the gauntlet.
Fun stuff becomes boring over time due to repetition, or do you not know that that happens to people?
Here is something new, challenging and refreshing (read: fun), so what’s the best way to get the tickets so I can play this fun stuff…?
Oh, play existing content that I’ve already done, instead of this fun stuff? Okay, makes sense.
If you are easily entertained by repeating the same content again and again, then more power to you.

Just saying something is less grindy doesn’t automatically change to mean not a grind.
That’s not how it works. Actually never mind, repetitively saying it’s not a grind does work.

Everything in every game, akittens basic level is repetition. You’re always killing, protecting, exploring. It’s all repetitive. Something being repetitive isn’t quite what is usually meant by grind.

Because you can get tickets in multiple ways, including running dungeons, doing events, killing mobs in the open world, running with the zerg in the Pavillion, even WvW, most people wouldn’t qualify it as grind…because you can do different things to get it.

You grind mobs to level in some games. You grind faction in Guild Wars 1 to level your Luxon or Kurzick title. It takes days/weeks/months…doing the same thing over and over.

This just isn’t what most people would refer to as grind, even though you say it’s repetitive.