Manifesto Clarification
A person with only 10 coppers is poor. A person with only 1 gold is also poor.
No, sorry, the latter person isn’t poor because of the former. My bad.Too bad the living story events like the gauntlet isn’t “normal stuff”. Oh wait, it is.
What I’m doing is grinding to get to the fun stuff. That stuff is currently the gauntlet.
Fun stuff becomes boring over time due to repetition, or do you not know that that happens to people?
Here is something new, challenging and refreshing (read: fun), so what’s the best way to get the tickets so I can play this fun stuff…?
Oh, play existing content that I’ve already done, instead of this fun stuff? Okay, makes sense.
If you are easily entertained by repeating the same content again and again, then more power to you.Just saying something is less grindy doesn’t automatically change to mean not a grind.
That’s not how it works. Actually never mind, repetitively saying it’s not a grind does work.Everything in every game, akittens basic level is repetition. You’re always killing, protecting, exploring. It’s all repetitive. Something being repetitive isn’t quite what is usually meant by grind.
Because you can get tickets in multiple ways, including running dungeons, doing events, killing mobs in the open world, running with the zerg in the Pavillion, even WvW, most people wouldn’t qualify it as grind…because you can do different things to get it.
You grind mobs to level in some games. You grind faction in Guild Wars 1 to level your Luxon or Kurzick title. It takes days/weeks/months…doing the same thing over and over.
This just isn’t what most people would refer to as grind, even though you say it’s repetitive.
Repetition to get a specific reward. The reward being tickets to gain admission to the fun stuff, which is my goal. The most efficient way to achieve this goal means being able to spend more time within said fun stuff, and that involves grinding to get the reward.
Thank you for repeating yourself by insisting because this is less grind compared to other grind, therefore no longer a grind. It really makes it true!
Here’s 1 internet for you.
So far you’re the only person I’ve seen or heard complain about this. The percentage of people who seem to agree with you are pretty thin on the ground. And YOU seeing something as grind, doesn’t make it grind. It may very well feel like grinding to you, but if you get stuff by just playing the game normally, it’s not grind.
In theory you CAN grind karma…but karma is not a grind. Why? Because everything you do gives you karma. The same is true of these tickets.
A person with only 10 coppers is poor. A person with only 1 gold is also poor.
No, sorry, the latter person isn’t poor because of the former. My bad.Too bad the living story events like the gauntlet isn’t “normal stuff”. Oh wait, it is.
What I’m doing is grinding to get to the fun stuff. That stuff is currently the gauntlet.
Fun stuff becomes boring over time due to repetition, or do you not know that that happens to people?
Here is something new, challenging and refreshing (read: fun), so what’s the best way to get the tickets so I can play this fun stuff…?
Oh, play existing content that I’ve already done, instead of this fun stuff? Okay, makes sense.
If you are easily entertained by repeating the same content again and again, then more power to you.Just saying something is less grindy doesn’t automatically change to mean not a grind.
That’s not how it works. Actually never mind, repetitively saying it’s not a grind does work.Everything in every game, akittens basic level is repetition. You’re always killing, protecting, exploring. It’s all repetitive. Something being repetitive isn’t quite what is usually meant by grind.
Because you can get tickets in multiple ways, including running dungeons, doing events, killing mobs in the open world, running with the zerg in the Pavillion, even WvW, most people wouldn’t qualify it as grind…because you can do different things to get it.
You grind mobs to level in some games. You grind faction in Guild Wars 1 to level your Luxon or Kurzick title. It takes days/weeks/months…doing the same thing over and over.
This just isn’t what most people would refer to as grind, even though you say it’s repetitive.
Repetition to get a specific reward. The reward being tickets to gain admission to the fun stuff, which is my goal. The most efficient way to achieve this goal means being able to spend more time within said fun stuff, and that involves grinding to get the reward.
Thank you for repeating yourself by insisting because this is less grind compared to other grind, therefore no longer a grind. It really makes it true!
Here’s 1 internet for you.So far you’re the only person I’ve seen or heard complain about this. The percentage of people who seem to agree with you are pretty thin on the ground. And YOU seeing something as grind, doesn’t make it grind. It may very well feel like grinding to you, but if you get stuff by just playing the game normally, it’s not grind.
In theory you CAN grind karma…but karma is not a grind. Why? Because everything you do gives you karma. The same is true of these tickets.
People posting on this particular forum represents the percentage of people’s views? Wow.
Also, number people disagreeing the manifesto is also wrong because you’re right, obviously. Okay.
Funny you’ve never heard of karma grind. I guess you were never in Orr in the early days.
Nor were you there when people exploited karma for gold.
Also, karma doesn’t give you access to a new dungeon, map etc.
A person with only 10 coppers is poor. A person with only 1 gold is also poor.
No, sorry, the latter person isn’t poor because of the former. My bad.Too bad the living story events like the gauntlet isn’t “normal stuff”. Oh wait, it is.
What I’m doing is grinding to get to the fun stuff. That stuff is currently the gauntlet.
Fun stuff becomes boring over time due to repetition, or do you not know that that happens to people?
Here is something new, challenging and refreshing (read: fun), so what’s the best way to get the tickets so I can play this fun stuff…?
Oh, play existing content that I’ve already done, instead of this fun stuff? Okay, makes sense.
If you are easily entertained by repeating the same content again and again, then more power to you.Just saying something is less grindy doesn’t automatically change to mean not a grind.
That’s not how it works. Actually never mind, repetitively saying it’s not a grind does work.Everything in every game, akittens basic level is repetition. You’re always killing, protecting, exploring. It’s all repetitive. Something being repetitive isn’t quite what is usually meant by grind.
Because you can get tickets in multiple ways, including running dungeons, doing events, killing mobs in the open world, running with the zerg in the Pavillion, even WvW, most people wouldn’t qualify it as grind…because you can do different things to get it.
You grind mobs to level in some games. You grind faction in Guild Wars 1 to level your Luxon or Kurzick title. It takes days/weeks/months…doing the same thing over and over.
This just isn’t what most people would refer to as grind, even though you say it’s repetitive.
Repetition to get a specific reward. The reward being tickets to gain admission to the fun stuff, which is my goal. The most efficient way to achieve this goal means being able to spend more time within said fun stuff, and that involves grinding to get the reward.
Thank you for repeating yourself by insisting because this is less grind compared to other grind, therefore no longer a grind. It really makes it true!
Here’s 1 internet for you.So far you’re the only person I’ve seen or heard complain about this. The percentage of people who seem to agree with you are pretty thin on the ground. And YOU seeing something as grind, doesn’t make it grind. It may very well feel like grinding to you, but if you get stuff by just playing the game normally, it’s not grind.
In theory you CAN grind karma…but karma is not a grind. Why? Because everything you do gives you karma. The same is true of these tickets.
People posting on this particular forum represents the percentage of people’s views? Wow.
Also, number people disagreeing the manifesto is also wrong because you’re right, obviously. Okay.Funny you’ve never heard of karma grind. I guess you were never in Orr in the early days.
Nor were you there when people exploited karma for gold.
Also, karma doesn’t give you access to a new dungeon, map etc.
Of course I’ve heard of karma grind. I’ve said you CAN grind karma. Therefore I’ve heard of it. But most people accumulate karma without grinding. Grinding karma is a choice that I’m convinced most people don’t engage in.
It can’t be that hard to grind if it’s only going to be here for a matter of weeks. What you’re doing is exaggerating the situation to suit your own conclusion. In your opinion it’s grind. In my opinion it’s not.
I don’t know anyone who says farming for a legendary weapon isn’t a grind. I don’t know a whole lot of people who think getting tickets is a grind. I thoroughly accept you find it a grind….but that doesn’t make it a grind. It only makes it a grind to you.
A person with only 10 coppers is poor. A person with only 1 gold is also poor.
No, sorry, the latter person isn’t poor because of the former. My bad.Too bad the living story events like the gauntlet isn’t “normal stuff”. Oh wait, it is.
What I’m doing is grinding to get to the fun stuff. That stuff is currently the gauntlet.
Fun stuff becomes boring over time due to repetition, or do you not know that that happens to people?
Here is something new, challenging and refreshing (read: fun), so what’s the best way to get the tickets so I can play this fun stuff…?
Oh, play existing content that I’ve already done, instead of this fun stuff? Okay, makes sense.
If you are easily entertained by repeating the same content again and again, then more power to you.Just saying something is less grindy doesn’t automatically change to mean not a grind.
That’s not how it works. Actually never mind, repetitively saying it’s not a grind does work.Everything in every game, akittens basic level is repetition. You’re always killing, protecting, exploring. It’s all repetitive. Something being repetitive isn’t quite what is usually meant by grind.
Because you can get tickets in multiple ways, including running dungeons, doing events, killing mobs in the open world, running with the zerg in the Pavillion, even WvW, most people wouldn’t qualify it as grind…because you can do different things to get it.
You grind mobs to level in some games. You grind faction in Guild Wars 1 to level your Luxon or Kurzick title. It takes days/weeks/months…doing the same thing over and over.
This just isn’t what most people would refer to as grind, even though you say it’s repetitive.
Repetition to get a specific reward. The reward being tickets to gain admission to the fun stuff, which is my goal. The most efficient way to achieve this goal means being able to spend more time within said fun stuff, and that involves grinding to get the reward.
Thank you for repeating yourself by insisting because this is less grind compared to other grind, therefore no longer a grind. It really makes it true!
Here’s 1 internet for you.So far you’re the only person I’ve seen or heard complain about this. The percentage of people who seem to agree with you are pretty thin on the ground. And YOU seeing something as grind, doesn’t make it grind. It may very well feel like grinding to you, but if you get stuff by just playing the game normally, it’s not grind.
In theory you CAN grind karma…but karma is not a grind. Why? Because everything you do gives you karma. The same is true of these tickets.
People posting on this particular forum represents the percentage of people’s views? Wow.
Also, number people disagreeing the manifesto is also wrong because you’re right, obviously. Okay.Funny you’ve never heard of karma grind. I guess you were never in Orr in the early days.
Nor were you there when people exploited karma for gold.
Also, karma doesn’t give you access to a new dungeon, map etc.Of course I’ve heard of karma grind. I’ve said you CAN grind karma. Therefore I’ve heard of it. But most people accumulate karma without grinding. Grinding karma is a choice that I’m convinced most people don’t engage in.
It can’t be that hard to grind if it’s only going to be here for a matter of weeks. What you’re doing is exaggerating the situation to suit your own conclusion. In your opinion it’s grind. In my opinion it’s not.
I don’t know anyone who says farming for a legendary weapon isn’t a grind. I don’t know a whole lot of people who think getting tickets is a grind. I thoroughly accept you find it a grind….but that doesn’t make it a grind. It only makes it a grind to you.
Grind isn’t difficult. Grind is boring repetitive busy work to get to the fun stuff and/or get items.
Karma has been nerfed multiple times making the incentive to grind karma pointless, and/or those that managed to grind karma prior to the nerf got enough karma to “bank” the rest. It happened, it wasn’t some theory. Map chat constantly came up with “where’s the zerg?”. Where all those participants are now, or whether they grinded enough in time, I don’t know. It’s pretty obviously the majority of legendary owners did it, though.
In any case, there is no time sensitive content involving karma, nor is it a currency to access “fun stuff”.
It’s clear you don’t see how this is going to be the start of required tokens/tickets/currency to access “fun” events, ie. we will most likely get more living story the will make grind to get to the fun stuff in the future. What a shame.
A person with only 10 coppers is poor. A person with only 1 gold is also poor.
No, sorry, the latter person isn’t poor because of the former. My bad.Too bad the living story events like the gauntlet isn’t “normal stuff”. Oh wait, it is.
What I’m doing is grinding to get to the fun stuff. That stuff is currently the gauntlet.snip
Everything in every game, akittens basic level is repetition. You’re always killing, protecting, exploring. It’s all repetitive. Something being repetitive isn’t quite what is usually meant by grind.
Because you can get tickets in multiple ways, including running dungeons, doing events, killing mobs in the open world, running with the zerg in the Pavillion, even WvW, most people wouldn’t qualify it as grind…because you can do different things to get it.
You grind mobs to level in some games. You grind faction in Guild Wars 1 to level your Luxon or Kurzick title. It takes days/weeks/months…doing the same thing over and over.
This just isn’t what most people would refer to as grind, even though you say it’s repetitive.
Repetition to get a specific reward. The reward being tickets to gain admission to the fun stuff, which is my goal. The most efficient way to achieve this goal means being able to spend more time within said fun stuff, and that involves grinding to get the reward.
Thank you for repeating yourself by insisting because this is less grind compared to other grind, therefore no longer a grind. It really makes it true!
Here’s 1 internet for you.So far you’re the only person I’ve seen or heard complain about this. The percentage of people who seem to agree with you are pretty thin on the ground. And YOU seeing something as grind, doesn’t make it grind. It may very well feel like grinding to you, but if you get stuff by just playing the game normally, it’s not grind.
In theory you CAN grind karma…but karma is not a grind. Why? Because everything you do gives you karma. The same is true of these tickets.
People posting on this particular forum represents the percentage of people’s views? Wow.
Also, number people disagreeing the manifesto is also wrong because you’re right, obviously. Okay.Funny you’ve never heard of karma grind. I guess you were never in Orr in the early days.
Nor were you there when people exploited karma for gold.
Also, karma doesn’t give you access to a new dungeon, map etc.Of course I’ve heard of karma grind. I’ve said you CAN grind karma. Therefore I’ve heard of it. But most people accumulate karma without grinding. Grinding karma is a choice that I’m convinced most people don’t engage in.
It can’t be that hard to grind if it’s only going to be here for a matter of weeks. What you’re doing is exaggerating the situation to suit your own conclusion. In your opinion it’s grind. In my opinion it’s not.
I don’t know anyone who says farming for a legendary weapon isn’t a grind. I don’t know a whole lot of people who think getting tickets is a grind. I thoroughly accept you find it a grind….but that doesn’t make it a grind. It only makes it a grind to you.
Grind isn’t difficult. Grind is boring repetitive busy work to get to the fun stuff and/or get items.
Karma has been nerfed multiple times making the incentive to grind karma pointless, and/or those that managed to grind karma prior to the nerf got enough karma to “bank” the rest. It happened, it wasn’t some theory. Map chat constantly came up with “where’s the zerg?”. Where all those participants are now, or whether they grinded enough in time, I don’t know. It’s pretty obviously the majority of legendary owners did it, though.
In any case, there is no time sensitive content involving karma, nor is it a currency to access “fun stuff”.It’s clear you don’t see how this is going to be the start of required tokens/tickets/currency to access “fun” events, ie. we will most likely get more living story the will make grind to get to the fun stuff in the future. What a shame.
All I can say is that if you think this is grind..the stuff we’re doing now, I suggest you never play any other MMO. Because by those standards, this isn’t grind (and those standards are pretty much what we have to go by).
Grind isn’t just doing the same thing repetitively for a reward. It’s doing the same thing repetitively for a reward long term. I was out just running around the world today, doing dailies and I got a bunch of tickets.
You’re of course entitled to your opinion that this is grind, but it’s just that. Your opinion. I don’t believe this is grind and I don’t believe most other people do either.
People posting on this particular forum represents the percentage of people’s views? Wow.
Also, number people disagreeing the manifesto is also wrong because you’re right, obviously. Okay.Funny you’ve never heard of karma grind. I guess you were never in Orr in the early days.
Nor were you there when people exploited karma for gold.
Also, karma doesn’t give you access to a new dungeon, map etc.
Considering it’s usually the same group of people who end up posting the most here, I’d personally not put too much stock in what forum visitors post. As part of a total picture it can be an indication but by itself the forum is possibly the worst source of information if you want to have a general idea of how people feel about the game.
Having said that, it probably is he first place where problems come to light. So it can be a good starting point for investigating issues.
As for karma, there is a reason why karma grinding exists. The game doesn’t reward karma equally for different activities. People will find out what the easiest way is to get the most karma in the shortest possible time and then start farming or grinding karma there over and over and over….Why? Because of the immense karma requirement for certain items. Karma gear itself (exotic from the temples) is not bad at all. In fact I just turned 80 yesterday and had 252500 karma, which was just enough to buy the whole set the day I turned 80. Well I see there are backs to get there too now so that’s another 42k but that won’t take too long.
I am not sure what people need all that karma for these days but I guess some things still take a lot of karma.
For me, the problem is this. Once you are level 80 and you set a goal and require x amount of something for it, you want to get it sooner rather than later. At least a lot of people do. So you look at what you need to do to get to that amount at a good pace. If you wanted a million karma for a legendary, you will want to get that together asap, because it’s just a small part of the total. And so you start doing specific things only because otherwise the process is too long. So then you grind karma, then another item or combine things to be more efficient etc. Goal oriented people don’t just play for months and months to suddenly realise they are close to reaching their goal of getting a legendary weapon.
So, since rewards are better in a couple of places, people will gravitate towards them because they have that goal they want to reach. Then to make legendaries tradeable/sellable cheapens the effort in my view. Should’ve been account bound at the least. It’s when you decide that you don’t want a legendary (also because the skins so far are dreadful), that suddenly level 80 leaves a void. What to do then? You got exotic armour and weapons, ascended trinkets are done with dailies and you only need infusions if you want to go grind the tetris dungeon.
I’ve seen more people who (I think wisely but to each their own) avoided fotm and grinding for a legendary. It’s two small parts of the game and yet they seem to constitute GW2’s endgame….meaning stuff to do at 80 that you couldn’t do before.
So if you ignore those two small elements of the game, it’s really just repetition of the same old stuff you’ve already done. That’s what makes GW2 a casual game for me even though I had hoped at one time to make it my main game.
It’s a game forum. The truth is not to be found here.
People posting on this particular forum represents the percentage of people’s views? Wow.
Also, number people disagreeing the manifesto is also wrong because you’re right, obviously. Okay.Funny you’ve never heard of karma grind. I guess you were never in Orr in the early days.
Nor were you there when people exploited karma for gold.
Also, karma doesn’t give you access to a new dungeon, map etc.snip
Having said that, it probably is he first place where problems come to light. So it can be a good starting point for investigating issues.
As for karma, there is a reason why karma grinding exists. The game doesn’t reward karma equally for different activities. People will find out what the easiest way is to get the most karma in the shortest possible time and then start farming or grinding karma there over and over and over….Why? Because of the immense karma requirement for certain items. Karma gear itself (exotic from the temples) is not bad at all. In fact I just turned 80 yesterday and had 252500 karma, which was just enough to buy the whole set the day I turned 80. Well I see there are backs to get there too now so that’s another 42k but that won’t take too long.
I am not sure what people need all that karma for these days but I guess some things still take a lot of karma.
For me, the problem is this. Once you are level 80 and you set a goal and require x amount of something for it, you want to get it sooner rather than later. At least a lot of people do. So you look at what you need to do to get to that amount at a good pace. If you wanted a million karma for a legendary, you will want to get that together asap, because it’s just a small part of the total. And so you start doing specific things only because otherwise the process is too long. So then you grind karma, then another item or combine things to be more efficient etc. Goal oriented people don’t just play for months and months to suddenly realise they are close to reaching their goal of getting a legendary weapon.
So, since rewards are better in a couple of places, people will gravitate towards them because they have that goal they want to reach. Then to make legendaries tradeable/sellable cheapens the effort in my view. Should’ve been account bound at the least. It’s when you decide that you don’t want a legendary (also because the skins so far are dreadful), that suddenly level 80 leaves a void. What to do then? You got exotic armour and weapons, ascended trinkets are done with dailies and you only need infusions if you want to go grind the tetris dungeon.
I’ve seen more people who (I think wisely but to each their own) avoided fotm and grinding for a legendary. It’s two small parts of the game and yet they seem to constitute GW2’s endgame….meaning stuff to do at 80 that you couldn’t do before.
So if you ignore those two small elements of the game, it’s really just repetition of the same old stuff you’ve already done. That’s what makes GW2 a casual game for me even though I had hoped at one time to make it my main game.
See, this post shows the difference between how I play and how other people play. And I’m not in any way trying to say anyone’s way of playing is invalid, so much as Anet’s thought process in designing the game wasn’t the grinding mentality.
I wanted a legendary weapon. Not to be uber cool, I barely ever use it, but to get that blank icon off my load in screen. I was lucky enough to get a precusor drop (but the second legendary I’m going for is an under water weapon).
However, I’m in no rush at all to get this stuff. I don’t want to farm, or do anything I don’t find fun. So I run around Orr for a while, when I feel like it, go to Southsun for the event, and I save the stuff I’ll eventually need. Then, when I have enough, I’ll probably have enough gold to buy the rest from the marketplace. So what if it takes six months? A year? I don’t need it to play the game. It’s not that important to me.
The grinding mentality is just that. It’s the thought process that says I want to have stuff fast. And if you have that mentality, you’ll find grind in any game…but I’m not sure most people have that mentality (though undeniably some do).
You’ll see people on these forums claiming they’re grinding and you’ll see people on these forums saying there’s no grind. The grind isn’t required by the game. The grind is part of the state of mind that says I need this thing ASAP. As long as that mentality exists, some people will grind.
But it’s unlike other MMOs because you don’t need to get that stuff. You don’t even need exotic armor. You can play the entire game in rares. That’s the truth of it.
Anet really believe if they made a fun game, people would play for fun. Anet was probably wrong.
People posting on this particular forum represents the percentage of people’s views? Wow.
Also, number people disagreeing the manifesto is also wrong because you’re right, obviously. Okay.Funny you’ve never heard of karma grind. I guess you were never in Orr in the early days.
Nor were you there when people exploited karma for gold.
Also, karma doesn’t give you access to a new dungeon, map etc.Of course I’ve heard of karma grind. I’ve said you CAN grind karma. Therefore I’ve heard of it. But most people accumulate karma without grinding. Grinding karma is a choice that I’m convinced most people don’t engage in.
It can’t be that hard to grind if it’s only going to be here for a matter of weeks. What you’re doing is exaggerating the situation to suit your own conclusion. In your opinion it’s grind. In my opinion it’s not.
I don’t know anyone who says farming for a legendary weapon isn’t a grind. I don’t know a whole lot of people who think getting tickets is a grind. I thoroughly accept you find it a grind….but that doesn’t make it a grind. It only makes it a grind to you.
Grind isn’t difficult. Grind is boring repetitive busy work to get to the fun stuff and/or get items.
Karma has been nerfed multiple times making the incentive to grind karma pointless, and/or those that managed to grind karma prior to the nerf got enough karma to “bank” the rest. It happened, it wasn’t some theory. Map chat constantly came up with “where’s the zerg?”. Where all those participants are now, or whether they grinded enough in time, I don’t know. It’s pretty obviously the majority of legendary owners did it, though.
In any case, there is no time sensitive content involving karma, nor is it a currency to access “fun stuff”.It’s clear you don’t see how this is going to be the start of required tokens/tickets/currency to access “fun” events, ie. we will most likely get more living story the will make grind to get to the fun stuff in the future. What a shame.
All I can say is that if you think this is grind..the stuff we’re doing now, I suggest you never play any other MMO. Because by those standards, this isn’t grind (and those standards are pretty much what we have to go by).
Grind isn’t just doing the same thing repetitively for a reward. It’s doing the same thing repetitively for a reward long term. I was out just running around the world today, doing dailies and I got a bunch of tickets.
You’re of course entitled to your opinion that this is grind, but it’s just that. Your opinion. I don’t believe this is grind and I don’t believe most other people do either.
Just because one thing is comparatively more worse than another, it doesn’t nullify the less worse one. Is this concept hard to grasp, or something? I guess some people can’t see the bigger picture.
The original philosophy of not wanting to people to grind to get to the fun stuff held up well up until now.
I’m not sure what your level of reading comprehension skills are, so I’ll rephrase this again: Grinding is not hard. It is boring, repetitive work, and that time could be better spent in the fun stuff rather than getting to the fun stuff. To me, fun stuff now = gauntlet. Getting to the fun stuff = getting the tickets (hint: grind).
Funny how you’re insisting on comparing grind on other MMOs, instead of what GW2 has been over the last year.
They could have just as easily not add in a ticket requirement (multiple tickets if you include gambits), and it’d be just like how all their previous content is: no grind required to play them if you just want to dive into them!
Thank you for your definition of grind to include an ambiguous time frame, despite the definition of grinding not requiring time frame as a cut-off point of when something is a grind or not.
It’s great you got a bunch of tickets out in the open world, so did I while grinding, and then I used those tickets to access the fun stuff. I’m pretty sure I got more tickets than you from my grinding, too!
Going by your post, it’s clear the “majority” is ready to accept grind to get to the fun stuff again, like every other MMO.
Anet’s started on a good path here for people like you, and will probably gradually increase the grind amount for future content, so over time so you won’t notice that it’s the same as every other MMO. But you’re also easily distract by the other carrots so you won’t notice the grind anyway, so it’ll work better for you.
People posting on this particular forum represents the percentage of people’s views? Wow.
Also, number people disagreeing the manifesto is also wrong because you’re right, obviously. Okay.Funny you’ve never heard of karma grind. I guess you were never in Orr in the early days.
Nor were you there when people exploited karma for gold.
Also, karma doesn’t give you access to a new dungeon, map etc.snip
I don’t know anyone who says farming for a legendary weapon isn’t a grind. I don’t know a whole lot of people who think getting tickets is a grind. I thoroughly accept you find it a grind….but that doesn’t make it a grind. It only makes it a grind to you.
Grind isn’t difficult. Grind is boring repetitive busy work to get to the fun stuff and/or get items.
Karma has been nerfed multiple times making the incentive to grind karma pointless, and/or those that managed to grind karma prior to the nerf got enough karma to “bank” the rest. It happened, it wasn’t some theory. Map chat constantly came up with “where’s the zerg?”. Where all those participants are now, or whether they grinded enough in time, I don’t know. It’s pretty obviously the majority of legendary owners did it, though.
In any case, there is no time sensitive content involving karma, nor is it a currency to access “fun stuff”.It’s clear you don’t see how this is going to be the start of required tokens/tickets/currency to access “fun” events, ie. we will most likely get more living story the will make grind to get to the fun stuff in the future. What a shame.
All I can say is that if you think this is grind..the stuff we’re doing now, I suggest you never play any other MMO. Because by those standards, this isn’t grind (and those standards are pretty much what we have to go by).
Grind isn’t just doing the same thing repetitively for a reward. It’s doing the same thing repetitively for a reward long term. I was out just running around the world today, doing dailies and I got a bunch of tickets.
You’re of course entitled to your opinion that this is grind, but it’s just that. Your opinion. I don’t believe this is grind and I don’t believe most other people do either.
Just because one thing is comparatively more worse than another, it doesn’t nullify the less worse one. Is this concept hard to grasp, or something? I guess some people can’t see the bigger picture.
The original philosophy of not wanting to people to grind to get to the fun stuff held up well up until now.I’m not sure what your level of reading comprehension skills are, so I’ll rephrase this again: Grinding is not hard. It is boring, repetitive work, and that time could be better spent in the fun stuff rather than getting to the fun stuff. To me, fun stuff now = gauntlet. Getting to the fun stuff = getting the tickets (hint: grind).
Funny how you’re insisting on comparing grind on other MMOs, instead of what GW2 has been over the last year.
They could have just as easily not add in a ticket requirement (multiple tickets if you include gambits), and it’d be just like how all their previous content is: no grind required to play them if you just want to dive into them!Thank you for your definition of grind to include an ambiguous time frame, despite the definition of grinding not requiring time frame as a cut-off point of when something is a grind or not.
It’s great you got a bunch of tickets out in the open world, so did I while grinding, and then I used those tickets to access the fun stuff. I’m pretty sure I got more tickets than you from my grinding, too!
Going by your post, it’s clear the “majority” is ready to accept grind to get to the fun stuff again, like every other MMO.
Anet’s started on a good path here for people like you, and will probably gradually increase the grind amount for future content, so over time so you won’t notice that it’s the same as every other MMO. But you’re also easily distract by the other carrots so you won’t notice the grind anyway, so it’ll work better for you.
I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree, because I’m not grinding. You may be, but I suggest that’s not anyone’s problem but yours. You seem to be the main voice on this issue.
And you know, if other people felt I was wrong, you can bet your bottom dollar there’d be a flood of people disagreeing with me. So far, it’s pretty much you.
Hearing about this manifesto is like a bad relationship.
Someone at Anet said something more than a year ago, and like a nagging spouse, the playerbase throws it in their face and brings it up at every chance they can with every move they make.
Worst thing they ever did was say this since it pre-destined them to never be able to live up to any expectations of everyones interpretation of it.
(edited by MrRuin.9740)
And you know, if other people felt I was wrong, you can bet your bottom dollar there’d be a flood of people disagreeing with me. So far, it’s pretty much you.
You can count most the posters in this thread as part of that flood, not just him. Debating with you is grindy and not fun at all so most simply stop doing so as it is not worth their time, which = less posters.
Not trying to be mean, just telling you why things are the way they are using generalizations (since you like them).
Serenity now~Insanity later
(edited by Essence Snow.3194)
I don’t find this game grindy. Grind implies that Anet is forcing me to do the same activity over and over again that I don’t enjoy to achieve success or compete with other players. They are doing no such thing and I am quite enjoying myself.
I won’t deny that there’s a minor bit of grind in gw2 (yes, very minor compared to some MMO’s), but you’re not being forced to do it. You don’t fall behind in gear, you don’t lose the ability to compete with other players in anything. Its all optional for pretty skins and AP’s and little toys (balloon? :P)
You are free to play as you wish or free to take on the grindy aspects if you want to.
And you know, if other people felt I was wrong, you can bet your bottom dollar there’d be a flood of people disagreeing with me. So far, it’s pretty much you.
Maybe they moved on to other threads because this one got too grindy.
The table is a fable.
I don’t find this game grindy. Grind implies that Anet is forcing me to do the same activity over and over again that I don’t enjoy to achieve success or compete with other players. They are doing no such thing and I am quite enjoying myself.
I won’t deny that there’s a minor bit of grind in gw2 (yes, very minor compared to some MMO’s), but you’re not being forced to do it. You don’t fall behind in gear, you don’t lose the ability to compete with other players in anything. Its all optional for pretty skins and AP’s and little toys (balloon? :P)
You are free to play as you wish or free to take on the grindy aspects if you want to.
You are free to decide to play or not as well. You are free to go to work or not. Freedom of choice is not the issue for me. But obviously when you feel you want to accomplish something then your choices to achieve them are more narrow.
In my view GW2 rewards are either too easy or too much work. Too easy doesn’t feel that satisfying either and too much work is what I consider grind. With too much work means an excess of what is needed to get a reward compared to the actual reward.
There are different play styles but this game doesn’t really offer much for goal oriented people. At least not in a way that feels satisfying and like you actually accomplished something.
It’s still a personal opinion but this game did step away from the usual gear treadmill but not entirely and not in a way that works for me.
The Manifesto is old and to be fair I prefer talking about the game as it is….what the Manifesto did or didn’t do really is old news.
It’s a game forum. The truth is not to be found here.
After playing ToR and the Imperial Agent class in particular(with how brilliant the story telling was in it) it was really jarring to play GW2’s personal story content. It’s just not the same caliber by a long shot and I am being diplomatic here. All that said, ToR’s game play in the open world doesn’t hold a candle to what ArenaNet has created. I take being able to play with my ENTIRE guild at the same time for granted now because of GW2. That fact alone would make this game worthwhile for me to play and there are just so many other wonderful things about the game that I love. The personal story though is a bummer.
I think ArenaNet’s writers do comedy very well. I don’t think they do drama very well as it pertains to dialog in the personal story. It all melts into melodrama. So you know what I decided? I am not playing any personal story stuff. SInce I made that decision it made the game thoroughly enjoyable for me. There are parts of every game that just aren’t for everyone. The trick is if you can find a bunch of things you like and then just stick to those. ArenaNet should take stock and see what is lacking and adjust to either make those parts better or if they should drop that thing completely. I am loving the two week updates and the pavillion has been a complete bast for my guild we get upwards of 20 of us at a time jsut running around killing stuff, getting fat lewtz and chillin in Ts. No other MMO really allows us to do that. ArenaNet does and all without a sub. It’s brilliant!
Leader of The Guernsey Milking Coalition [MiLk] Sanctum of Rall
And you know, if other people felt I was wrong, you can bet your bottom dollar there’d be a flood of people disagreeing with me. So far, it’s pretty much you.
You can count most the posters in this thread as part of that flood, not just him.
Yep. I think most people have realized that Vayne’s two points are wrong:
1. In the Manifesto, ArenaNet was talking about all grind, not just level grind. We have proved that already.
2. GW2 is rather grindy now. This one is easy to prove as well.
With those points having been stated and not replied to with convincing evidence, all that is left is repeating the same points over and over. Which is, too, rather grindy.
“I think that players are starting to mature past the point of wanting to be on that
treadmill, of being in that obvious pattern of every time I catch up you are going to
put another carrot in front of me” – Mike O’Brien right before Ascended weapons
treadmill, of being in that obvious pattern of every time I catch up you are going to
put another carrot in front of me” – Mike O’Brien right before Ascended weapons
And you know, if other people felt I was wrong, you can bet your bottom dollar there’d be a flood of people disagreeing with me. So far, it’s pretty much you.
You can count most the posters in this thread as part of that flood, not just him. Debating with you is grindy and not fun at all so most simply stop doing so as it is not worth their time, which = less posters.
Not trying to be mean, just telling you why things are the way they are using generalizations (since you like them).
+ Over 9000.
My grandmother had a saying “Never try to teach a pig to whistle. It only frustrates you, and annoys the pig”.
(please note, that is a common rural saying. No one is calling anyone a pig, or actually teaching whistling)
Ley lines. The perfect solution to deadlines and writers block. Now in an easy open Can.
Why are you clinging to this manifesto like its the final word on this game, forever? Let it go.
Yes, you are free to express displeasure and want changes to how you see fit. Can there not be a discussion about the current state of the game without this manifesto being whipped out like its black and white fact?
You can’t hold them to this because it means different things to different people. As evidenced by this thread and others, grind means different things to different people. To some, the almighty manifesto is holding true, to others it is not.
Nevermind the fact that things change. It’ll be 5 years from now and Anet will change something else and someone will whip out this manifesto as some kind of ‘evidence’ they’re doing it wrong.
And you know, if other people felt I was wrong, you can bet your bottom dollar there’d be a flood of people disagreeing with me. So far, it’s pretty much you.
You can count most the posters in this thread as part of that flood, not just him. Debating with you is grindy and not fun at all so most simply stop doing so as it is not worth their time, which = less posters.
Not trying to be mean, just telling you why things are the way they are using generalizations (since you like them).
Believe me, other people would have corrected me if they thought I was wrong. It was happening all thread, but not on that topic.
And you know, if other people felt I was wrong, you can bet your bottom dollar there’d be a flood of people disagreeing with me. So far, it’s pretty much you.
You can count most the posters in this thread as part of that flood, not just him. Debating with you is grindy and not fun at all so most simply stop doing so as it is not worth their time, which = less posters.
Not trying to be mean, just telling you why things are the way they are using generalizations (since you like them).
+ Over 9000.
My grandmother had a saying “Never try to teach a pig to whistle. It only frustrates you, and annoys the pig”.
(please note, that is a common rural saying. No one is calling anyone a pig, or actually teaching whistling)
Pretty rude anyway, since everyone knows who you’re talking about. But that’s okay. I don’t really mind.
I have plenty of support on these forums.
And you know, if other people felt I was wrong, you can bet your bottom dollar there’d be a flood of people disagreeing with me. So far, it’s pretty much you.
You can count most the posters in this thread as part of that flood, not just him.
Yep. I think most people have realized that Vayne’s two points are wrong:
1. In the Manifesto, ArenaNet was talking about all grind, not just level grind. We have proved that already.
2. GW2 is rather grindy now. This one is easy to prove as well.
With those points having been stated and not replied to with convincing evidence, all that is left is repeating the same points over and over. Which is, too, rather grindy.
Most people are playing the game and having fun. Most people on the forums are here to complain. Typical forum. You have no evidence of most people believing anything.
And Guild Wars 2 is rather grindy now if you play it that way. If you don’t play it that way, it’s not. It’s a choice.
Why are you clinging to this manifesto like its the final word on this game, forever? Let it go.
Yes, you are free to express displeasure and want changes to how you see fit. Can there not be a discussion about the current state of the game without this manifesto being whipped out like its black and white fact?
You can’t hold them to this because it means different things to different people. As evidenced by this thread and others, grind means different things to different people. To some, the almighty manifesto is holding true, to others it is not.
Nevermind the fact that things change. It’ll be 5 years from now and Anet will change something else and someone will whip out this manifesto as some kind of ‘evidence’ they’re doing it wrong.
No one wants to believe they misunderstood something. They’d rather blame someone else. It’s just human nature.
I couldn’t have possibly misunderstood the manifesto, because I know what I’m talking about. And as long as people believe they can’t have misunderstood it, even though Anet spent a whole lot of time after explaining it, then they’ll just continue to say things like Anet lied to them.
Again, it’s just human nature.
Why are you clinging to this manifesto like its the final word on this game, forever? Let it go.
Yes, you are free to express displeasure and want changes to how you see fit. Can there not be a discussion about the current state of the game without this manifesto being whipped out like its black and white fact?
You can’t hold them to this because it means different things to different people. As evidenced by this thread and others, grind means different things to different people. To some, the almighty manifesto is holding true, to others it is not.
Nevermind the fact that things change. It’ll be 5 years from now and Anet will change something else and someone will whip out this manifesto as some kind of ‘evidence’ they’re doing it wrong.No one wants to believe they misunderstood something. They’d rather blame someone else. It’s just human nature.
I couldn’t have possibly misunderstood the manifesto, because I know what I’m talking about. And as long as people believe they can’t have misunderstood it, even though Anet spent a whole lot of time after explaining it, then they’ll just continue to say things like Anet lied to them.
Again, it’s just human nature.
LoL…this one is good! Just quoting it b4 it gets edited…gold Jerry GOLD!
Serenity now~Insanity later
Why are you clinging to this manifesto like its the final word on this game, forever? Let it go.
Yes, you are free to express displeasure and want changes to how you see fit. Can there not be a discussion about the current state of the game without this manifesto being whipped out like its black and white fact?
You can’t hold them to this because it means different things to different people. As evidenced by this thread and others, grind means different things to different people. To some, the almighty manifesto is holding true, to others it is not.
Nevermind the fact that things change. It’ll be 5 years from now and Anet will change something else and someone will whip out this manifesto as some kind of ‘evidence’ they’re doing it wrong.No one wants to believe they misunderstood something. They’d rather blame someone else. It’s just human nature.
I couldn’t have possibly misunderstood the manifesto, because I know what I’m talking about. And as long as people believe they can’t have misunderstood it, even though Anet spent a whole lot of time after explaining it, then they’ll just continue to say things like Anet lied to them.
Again, it’s just human nature.
LoL…this one is good! Just quoting it b4 it gets edited…gold Jerry GOLD!
Edited by who? I have no intention of editing it.
Edit: In case you didn’t realize it, the line about not misunderstanding the manifesto was my imitation of the public at large. The reason why I believe I know what the manifesto means is because Anet explained it and I listened to the explanation.
Let’s take a second look….
people believe they can’t have misunderstood
I couldn’t have possibly misunderstood the manifesto, because I know what I’m talking about.
it’s just human nature.
You’re making the same error you claim others are making while claiming such. I might be wrong here (as nothing is 100%), but that sounds like cognitive bias more specifically self-serving bias and belief bias.
Serenity now~Insanity later
(edited by Essence Snow.3194)
You have no evidence of most people believing anything.
Then I guess you can’t say…
Most people are playing the game and having fun.
…Since you have no evidence of most people doing anything.
“I think that players are starting to mature past the point of wanting to be on that
treadmill, of being in that obvious pattern of every time I catch up you are going to
put another carrot in front of me” – Mike O’Brien right before Ascended weapons
treadmill, of being in that obvious pattern of every time I catch up you are going to
put another carrot in front of me” – Mike O’Brien right before Ascended weapons
Most people are playing the game and having fun. Most people on the forums are here to complain. Typical forum. You have no evidence of most people believing anything.
And Guild Wars 2 is rather grindy now if you play it that way. If you don’t play it that way, it’s not. It’s a choice.
“Grind”. Engh. Such an evil word with it’s million definitions…
I won’t say anything’s “grind”, but I do think a lot of the content needs a lot of restructuring and some major additions to warrant the replayability that most of the in-game rewards require.
You are free to decide to play or not as well. You are free to go to work or not. Freedom of choice is not the issue for me. But obviously when you feel you want to accomplish something then your choices to achieve them are more narrow.
In my view GW2 rewards are either too easy or too much work. Too easy doesn’t feel that satisfying either and too much work is what I consider grind. With too much work means an excess of what is needed to get a reward compared to the actual reward.
There are different play styles but this game doesn’t really offer much for goal oriented people. At least not in a way that feels satisfying and like you actually accomplished something.
It’s still a personal opinion but this game did step away from the usual gear treadmill but not entirely and not in a way that works for me.
The Manifesto is old and to be fair I prefer talking about the game as it is….what the Manifesto did or didn’t do really is old news.
Mostly how I feel about all of this.
And you know, if other people felt I was wrong, you can bet your bottom dollar there’d be a flood of people disagreeing with me. So far, it’s pretty much you.
You can count most the posters in this thread as part of that flood, not just him. Debating with you is grindy and not fun at all so most simply stop doing so as it is not worth their time, which = less posters.
Not trying to be mean, just telling you why things are the way they are using generalizations (since you like them).
+ Over 9000.
My grandmother had a saying “Never try to teach a pig to whistle. It only frustrates you, and annoys the pig”.
(please note, that is a common rural saying. No one is calling anyone a pig, or actually teaching whistling)
Pretty rude anyway, since everyone knows who you’re talking about. But that’s okay. I don’t really mind.
I have plenty of support on these forums.
I guess I am not surprised to find that you managed to take personal insult to a metaphor that could also accurately describe your position from your perspective.
It is a generalized saying. It applies to many situations where you find yourself in circular arguments that will never be resolved. It has nothing to do with who is right, wrong, or “has support”.
it is commonly attributed to Robert Heinlein
Ley lines. The perfect solution to deadlines and writers block. Now in an easy open Can.
(edited by Teofa Tsavo.9863)
Is this thread a joke? All I see is Vanye Vanye Vanye. No Dev clarification either.
At what point do they consider a poster guilty of Spamming and then lock a thread on those grounds too? Why have posting Standards at all if they’re not going to be enforced consistently?Why would the developers bother with a thread like this. The funny thing is if you go on the link the one of the posters in that clarification is YOU.
Wait… what are you talking about? What’d I do? I’m trying to stay OUT of this… yeah Anet and my own public involvement go back a long ways… 6 years now I think? …but I never took them to task for this Manifesto stuff that Mike insisted upon. When they were all over that a year or two ago, I was just wincing and looking the other direction. In some places I was actively warning new-fans not to buy the hype around it. B/c that was never the Anet I knew…
.
The Anet I knew, sold “Skills” in packs and Mercenary Heroes and all the extra storage they could host which were all major advantages that you simply couldn’t get from the boxed copies alone ..The Anet I knew took almost a year to fix Dancing Daggers and almost 2 to fix some Golden Gate map bug. The Anet I knew loved grinding and introduced as much as possible every chapter for some little damage bonus or skill-scaling bonus that you had to open the clunky title UI every time and then check on a tiny box to activate that bonus you had to grind half a million mob kills for. (and yes I was a Rank 8 Lightbringer).
…come to think of it…
the last thing I want is more more light shined on my comments there, I wouldn’t know anything about enhancing single client phasing with those methods…
(edited by ilr.9675)
Why are you clinging to this manifesto like its the final word on this game, forever? Let it go.
I don’t care about the manifesto per se. I do care about the fact, that Anet sold me the game using some concepts, and then did an almost complete turnaround in one of the first major patches, 3 months after launch.
I do care that the game goes in a different direction than it was originally supposed to go. I do care about the fact that I bought this game because it advertised it won’t follow certain paths common to other MMO’s, and that it is doing now exactly what they promised they won’t.
Basically, i care because what Anet is doing with GW2 changes this game from something i wanted to buy into something i am certain i will not be interested in.
When i order vegetarian dish and see that i got served meat, telling me that i should not care too much about what was written on the menu is not exactly a good advice.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
First of all we’re talking MMOs, not single player games. And when this was made, there was no MMO that gave you a PERSONAL story.
Weird… its like that entire year I was playing Star Wars: The Old Republic before GW2 came out never happened. And I’m sure Bioware hadn’t been blathering about it for 5 years prior to that.
Star Wars was released 2011-2012 while the manifesto was released 2010.
The personal story in SWTOR was known about well before 2010.
The personal story in Guild Wars 2 was known long before the manifesto.
Just to clarify the personal story for SWToR was announced in 2008. That’s almost a full year before the GW2 story was talked about, unless you have a source predating Oct 2008. If so please share it, I would like to add that in to a source list.
Anyone that thinks the manifesto was anything more than a hype engine for the game is sorely mistaken. After years of playing games we should all know what those are for. Sure Anet said things that weren’t true, if you don’t expect that from a company at this point you are going to have a rough time in life.
edit
Forgot to link my sources, sorry guys.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_The_Old_Republic
http://www.gamespot.com/star-wars-the-old-republic/videos/star-wars-the-old-republic-revealed-6199708/?tag=topslot%3Bwatchlink%3B1
http://www.gamespot.com/news/star-wars-the-old-republic-revealed-6199726
*I can link a few more if needed.
(edited by GSSBlunaspike.4153)
Anyone that thinks the manifesto was anything more than a hype engine for the game is sorely mistaken. After years of playing games we should all know what those are for. Sure Anet said things that weren’t true, if you don’t expect that from a company at this point you are going to have a rough time in life.
Well, I do agree with this. I think what happened is that the way Anet handled GW1 and such they had a bit more credibility than a lot of other game developers, including NcSoft who were only their publisher back then. They can now be classed with the rest of them. Guess I was stupid to think they were a bit more honest than other companies…oh well, live and learn.
It’s a game forum. The truth is not to be found here.
Our team has gone through and cleaned up this thread quite a bit. You’re welcome to debate this topic as long as you wish, but we do ask that you debate the topic and not insult, name-call, or be rude towards each other.
If that continues, we will lock the thread. Please review the Forum Code of Conduct when you get a chance if you have any questions. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/rules
It would perhaps be advisable to alter the forum so that Moderator posts appear in a different color than Developer Red, and not make the “Developer response” icon appear by the title on the thread list page. It very much heightens the impression that no one upstairs is listening when we scan through page after page of this sort of thread for an official ANet response only to find that it’s just a Moderator enforcing forum ToS, and not commenting in any way on the actual topic. In a thread particularly focused on the conflicting information your company has provided, it seems like that’s the sort of impression you should strive to avoid.
Former Guild Wars 2 fan. RIP, ArenaNet’s integrity.
You have no evidence of most people believing anything.
Then I guess you can’t say…
Most people are playing the game and having fun.
…Since you have no evidence of most people doing anything.
I can say most people are playing the game and having fun. The reason for this is because of the small percentage of any population that post to the forums. I think it’s pretty well known that forums for MMORPGs tend toward negativity, no matter how popular a game is. Because if you’re happy in the game, you have less reason to be on the forums, or at least post.
Let’s take a second look….
people believe they can’t have misunderstood
I couldn’t have possibly misunderstood the manifesto, because I know what I’m talking about.
it’s just human nature.
You’re making the same error you claim others are making while claiming such. I might be wrong here (as nothing is 100%), but that sounds like cognitive bias more specifically self-serving bias and belief bias.
I’m not looking at the manifesto as a stand alone item, and those who claim to understand it are. I’m actually remembering how Anet clarified it in the weeks and months after.
It’s a very different situation. Just as people didn’t believe me when I said there was a clarification and what it said (and it was finally produced). The stuff I said that Colin and Eric said was said.
So you can either say they didn’t know what the manifesto was about, or you can say that my memory is so bad that I don’t remember it.
Those who try to interpret the manifesto as a stand alone document without looking at everything that was said after the fact about it directly are more likely to be in error, just logically.
Why are you clinging to this manifesto like its the final word on this game, forever? Let it go.
I don’t care about the manifesto per se. I do care about the fact, that Anet sold me the game using some concepts, and then did an almost complete turnaround in one of the first major patches, 3 months after launch.
I do care that the game goes in a different direction than it was originally supposed to go. I do care about the fact that I bought this game because it advertised it won’t follow certain paths common to other MMO’s, and that it is doing now exactly what they promised they won’t.Basically, i care because what Anet is doing with GW2 changes this game from something i wanted to buy into something i am certain i will not be interested in.
When i order vegetarian dish and see that i got served meat, telling me that i should not care too much about what was written on the menu is not exactly a good advice.
Except that it’s only your opinion that they’ve done a complete turn around. No one is saying that changes weren’t made. But the ascended gear isn’t a complete turnaround to everyone (and most of those who felt it was are long gone).
I’m sure the loyalists would have been very happy to have a situation where a significant portion of the staff was fire (a la SWToR and TSW), and having no one playing the game, because Anet refused to compromise.
Anet said loudly and clearly they were a company that iterated and iteration means change. I’m not sure why no one takes that into account. I at least knew the game would change and evolve. And while I’m not thrilled with the advent of ascended gear, it’s easy to see why Anet included it.
Anyone that thinks the manifesto was anything more than a hype engine for the game is sorely mistaken. After years of playing games we should all know what those are for. Sure Anet said things that weren’t true, if you don’t expect that from a company at this point you are going to have a rough time in life.
Well, I do agree with this. I think what happened is that the way Anet handled GW1 and such they had a bit more credibility than a lot of other game developers, including NcSoft who were only their publisher back then. They can now be classed with the rest of them. Guess I was stupid to think they were a bit more honest than other companies…oh well, live and learn.
NcSoft owned Anet outright before the release of Guild Wars 1. They were never only just their publisher. At least not since before Prophecies launched.
I can say most people are playing the game and having fun. The reason for this is because of the small percentage of any population that post to the forums. I think it’s pretty well known that forums for MMORPGs tend toward negativity, no matter how popular a game is. Because if you’re happy in the game, you have less reason to be on the forums, or at least post.
Yeah, that’s a common belief among people defending status quo in any game community. It has never been proved to be right. In fact, there were cases when it has been proven to be wrong (SWTOR).
It is also based on a (doubly) faulty logic, – an unproved assumption, and assertion that implications are reversible.
The assumption is that “if you’re happy in the game, you have less reason to be on the forums, or at least post”. That assumption may be true, but it hasn’t been in any way proved. Until you will manage to prove it, you can’t use it as a basis of reasoning without making it suspect.
Then, of course, even if the implication “happy => posts less” is true, it deesn’t follow that the “posts less => happy” is also true. Claiming so is a very basic logical error. You should be ashamed of it.
So, basically anytime someone will claim that, I (and anyone else) will have every right to laugh in their face.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
First of all we’re talking MMOs, not single player games. And when this was made, there was no MMO that gave you a PERSONAL story.
Weird… its like that entire year I was playing Star Wars: The Old Republic before GW2 came out never happened. And I’m sure Bioware hadn’t been blathering about it for 5 years prior to that.
Star Wars was released 2011-2012 while the manifesto was released 2010.
The personal story in SWTOR was known about well before 2010.
The personal story in Guild Wars 2 was known long before the manifesto.
Just to clarify the personal story for SWToR was announced in 2008. That’s almost a full year before the GW2 story was talked about, unless you have a source predating Oct 2008. If so please share it, I would like to add that in to a source list.
Anyone that thinks the manifesto was anything more than a hype engine for the game is sorely mistaken. After years of playing games we should all know what those are for. Sure Anet said things that weren’t true, if you don’t expect that from a company at this point you are going to have a rough time in life.
edit
Forgot to link my sources, sorry guys.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_The_Old_Republic
http://www.gamespot.com/star-wars-the-old-republic/videos/star-wars-the-old-republic-revealed-6199708/?tag=topslot%3Bwatchlink%3B1
http://www.gamespot.com/news/star-wars-the-old-republic-revealed-6199726
*I can link a few more if needed.
Even if this is true (and I can’t say it is from sources you see here, because there were things mentioned that didn’t get as much press as a Star Wars article. Guild Wars isn’t as big a name as Star Wars), it doesn’t chance the fact that when the manifesto was released, no existing MMO had a personal story in it.
Even if SWToR had mentioned that they were including a personal story, there’s no reason in the world for Anet not to mention theirs, particularly in a market where to date, no released MMO had a personal story at all.
The problem with going back to find these quotes years later is that the companies with the most money get the most exposure. So if I heard about the personal story through channels that don’t really receive much attention, there’s no guarantee on the net that information about it would still be available years later.
Anet was toying with personal story type ideas already, all the way back in Nightfall. When you played Nightfall, you did different missions depending on which heroes you took. So if at a certain turning point in the game you took the Master of Whispers you’d do one mission and if you took Mhargrid the Sly you did another mission. Surely this is the forerunner of the personal story as we’ve seen it in Guild Wars 2. The choices you make affect your play through of the game.
And Nightfall certainly predated anything released about SWToR.
Why are you clinging to this manifesto like its the final word on this game, forever? Let it go.
I don’t care about the manifesto per se. I do care about the fact, that Anet sold me the game using some concepts, and then did an almost complete turnaround in one of the first major patches, 3 months after launch.
I do care that the game goes in a different direction than it was originally supposed to go. I do care about the fact that I bought this game because it advertised it won’t follow certain paths common to other MMO’s, and that it is doing now exactly what they promised they won’t.Basically, i care because what Anet is doing with GW2 changes this game from something i wanted to buy into something i am certain i will not be interested in.
When i order vegetarian dish and see that i got served meat, telling me that i should not care too much about what was written on the menu is not exactly a good advice.
Well, hold on! As a meat eater, that dish had LESS meat than a typical meat dish, therefore is still considered a vegetarian dish.
Anyway, I agree with you about being interested by the concepts of the manifesto. Just because a concept does not operate word by word the same as stated, doesn’t always make it different.
XP vs items to get to fun stuff is just a redressing of the same underlying mechanic.
In the case of the gauntlet, it seems like they’ve brought back the very mechanic they said they didn’t want people to do.
Of course people won’t complain since they’re already conditioned to grind through prior experience. Even if every other content within this game did not do it, just a little bit won’t hurt now. Then just a bit more…then a little more, etc.
It also helps by flooding them with other distractions so they don’t notice it (eg. farming in the arena area).
Vayne, I’m curious on your /age and AP, because you certainly sound like someone in the hardcore group, rather than the majority.
Why are you clinging to this manifesto like its the final word on this game, forever? Let it go.
I don’t care about the manifesto per se. I do care about the fact, that Anet sold me the game using some concepts, and then did an almost complete turnaround in one of the first major patches, 3 months after launch.
I do care that the game goes in a different direction than it was originally supposed to go. I do care about the fact that I bought this game because it advertised it won’t follow certain paths common to other MMO’s, and that it is doing now exactly what they promised they won’t.Basically, i care because what Anet is doing with GW2 changes this game from something i wanted to buy into something i am certain i will not be interested in.
When i order vegetarian dish and see that i got served meat, telling me that i should not care too much about what was written on the menu is not exactly a good advice.
Well, hold on! As a meat eater, that dish had LESS meat than a typical meat dish, therefore is still considered a vegetarian dish.
Anyway, I agree with you about being interested by the concepts of the manifesto. Just because a concept does not operate word by word the same as stated, doesn’t always make it different.
XP vs items to get to fun stuff is just a redressing of the same underlying mechanic.
In the case of the gauntlet, it seems like they’ve brought back the very mechanic they said they didn’t want people to do.
Of course people won’t complain since they’re already conditioned to grind through prior experience. Even if every other content within this game did not do it, just a little bit won’t hurt now. Then just a bit more…then a little more, etc.
It also helps by flooding them with other distractions so they don’t notice it (eg. farming in the arena area).Vayne, I’m curious on your /age and AP, because you certainly sound like someone in the hardcore group, rather than the majority.
I’m over 10,000 AP and I’ve played a whole lot of hours. I’m not casual in the sense of hours played, but I’m very much casual in my attitude toward things. In other words, I don’t grind.
However, I’m also patient. I don’t see new content and think, I must do this NOW. I go and do my normal stuff and I get passes to the Gauntlet. Then I do the Gauntlet.
And having funs thing to do up front doesn’t imply there won’t be other fun things to do that you don’t need to work towards. They’re different things.
It would be like me saying as soon as you enter the garden you’ll see beautiful flowers. Then there are other, different beautiful flowers at the other side of the garden. You’re saying, I had to walk all this way to see beautiful flowers, and that’s not true.
Anet didn’t say there would never been any work to get to a specific event. They just said there’s be fun pretty much throughout. You’re interpreting the manifesto as saying there would never be anything fun that didn’t require you to do something else first.
And Anet certainly never said that.
Well, hold on! As a meat eater, that dish had LESS meat than a typical meat dish, therefore is still considered a vegetarian dish.
Anyway, I agree with you about being interested by the concepts of the manifesto. Just because a concept does not operate word by word the same as stated, doesn’t always make it different.
XP vs items to get to fun stuff is just a redressing of the same underlying mechanic.
In the case of the gauntlet, it seems like they’ve brought back the very mechanic they said they didn’t want people to do.
Of course people won’t complain since they’re already conditioned to grind through prior experience. Even if every other content within this game did not do it, just a little bit won’t hurt now. Then just a bit more…then a little more, etc.
It also helps by flooding them with other distractions so they don’t notice it (eg. farming in the arena area).Vayne, I’m curious on your /age and AP, because you certainly sound like someone in the hardcore group, rather than the majority.
I’m over 10,000 AP and I’ve played a whole lot of hours. I’m not casual in the sense of hours played, but I’m very much casual in my attitude toward things. In other words, I don’t grind.
However, I’m also patient. I don’t see new content and think, I must do this NOW. I go and do my normal stuff and I get passes to the Gauntlet. Then I do the Gauntlet.
And having funs thing to do up front doesn’t imply there won’t be other fun things to do that you don’t need to work towards. They’re different things.
It would be like me saying as soon as you enter the garden you’ll see beautiful flowers. Then there are other, different beautiful flowers at the other side of the garden. You’re saying, I had to walk all this way to see beautiful flowers, and that’s not true.
Anet didn’t say there would never been any work to get to a specific event. They just said there’s be fun pretty much throughout. You’re interpreting the manifesto as saying there would never be anything fun that didn’t require you to do something else first.
And Anet certainly never said that.
They expressed a desire for people not to grind to get to the fun stuff.
Your AP and omission of actual hours (but I can guesstimate the hours), and it’s clear your idea of “a little” is in the range of hours which you clearly have an abundant of.
It’s not surprising your social circle would agree with you, since they’re probably hardcore people such as yourself (like people attracts, obviously).
Thanks for the flawed analogy. If I have to look at the existing flowers that I’ve already seen 1,000,000 times in order to look at the new flowers, that’s silly.
Was there a promise that people will not to grind to get to the fun stuff ever? No.
But, actions speak louder than words, and those action in the past agreed with their original philosophy. Seems they no longer agree with their original philosophy and the gauntlet is starting proof of that.
You should also be aware that all of the existing content’s “work” that requires unlocking, remains unlocked. Here it is not.
Continuous access is not a challenging task. It is mundane work.
They’ve laid the ground work and people already conditioned to this don’t notice.
You don’t see it as work because you’re not actively wanting to play it. Watch what happens when you burn through your tickets and want to play some more. Farm or buy more tickets (which is obviously easy enough since everyone has the same number of hours to play as yourself).
You also don’t realize people are adverse to difficult things thus will skip this anyway.
There is also a good reason to play it “now”. Shorter queues because the majority are still in farming mode.
I’m hoping I’m wrong, but I can definitely see the next SAB iteration doing the same trick as the gauntlet, and probably bigger requirement to gain access.
What a shame if it happens.
Your AP and omission of actual hours (but I can guesstimate the hours), and it’s clear your idea of “a little” is in the range of hours which you clearly have an abundant of.
He did mention it:
3335 Hours over the past 9 months.
“I think that players are starting to mature past the point of wanting to be on that
treadmill, of being in that obvious pattern of every time I catch up you are going to
put another carrot in front of me” – Mike O’Brien right before Ascended weapons
treadmill, of being in that obvious pattern of every time I catch up you are going to
put another carrot in front of me” – Mike O’Brien right before Ascended weapons
Oh for crying out loud.
ANet can change the game’s direction as they see fit whether you like it or not. It’s their game. I am not telling people to stop suggesting or something, but clinging to an old design, really?
If the old design doesn’t match what majority of people like, what the current trend is or doesn’t promote the gameplay longetivity to the masses and doesn’t promote income – they will change it.
They are a company for god’s sake – they will want to earn as much as they can. They are not a charity to make people happy all the time.
Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici
The design didn’t change, because all the original stuff is still there. The problem is people consume content faster than any publisher can create it. So every publisher needs ways to slow things down. That’s what time gating is.
But if you really think the ticket system for the Queen’s Gauntlet is a grind, I don’t really know what to say.
Because I don’t see it that way, and I doubt I ever will.
People posting on this particular forum represents the percentage of people’s views? Wow.
Also, number people disagreeing the manifesto is also wrong because you’re right, obviously. Okay.Funny you’ve never heard of karma grind. I guess you were never in Orr in the early days.
Nor were you there when people exploited karma for gold.
Also, karma doesn’t give you access to a new dungeon, map etc.snip
I don’t know anyone who says farming for a legendary weapon isn’t a grind. I don’t know a whole lot of people who think getting tickets is a grind. I thoroughly accept you find it a grind….but that doesn’t make it a grind. It only makes it a grind to you.
Grind isn’t difficult. Grind is boring repetitive busy work to get to the fun stuff and/or get items.
Karma has been nerfed multiple times making the incentive to grind karma pointless, and/or those that managed to grind karma prior to the nerf got enough karma to “bank” the rest. It happened, it wasn’t some theory. Map chat constantly came up with “where’s the zerg?”. Where all those participants are now, or whether they grinded enough in time, I don’t know. It’s pretty obviously the majority of legendary owners did it, though.
In any case, there is no time sensitive content involving karma, nor is it a currency to access “fun stuff”.It’s clear you don’t see how this is going to be the start of required tokens/tickets/currency to access “fun” events, ie. we will most likely get more living story the will make grind to get to the fun stuff in the future. What a shame.
All I can say is that if you think this is grind..the stuff we’re doing now, I suggest you never play any other MMO. Because by those standards, this isn’t grind (and those standards are pretty much what we have to go by).
Grind isn’t just doing the same thing repetitively for a reward. It’s doing the same thing repetitively for a reward long term. I was out just running around the world today, doing dailies and I got a bunch of tickets.
You’re of course entitled to your opinion that this is grind, but it’s just that. Your opinion. I don’t believe this is grind and I don’t believe most other people do either.
Just because one thing is comparatively more worse than another, it doesn’t nullify the less worse one. Is this concept hard to grasp, or something? I guess some people can’t see the bigger picture.
The original philosophy of not wanting to people to grind to get to the fun stuff held up well up until now.I’m not sure what your level of reading comprehension skills are, so I’ll rephrase this again: Grinding is not hard. It is boring, repetitive work, and that time could be better spent in the fun stuff rather than getting to the fun stuff. To me, fun stuff now = gauntlet. Getting to the fun stuff = getting the tickets (hint: grind).
Funny how you’re insisting on comparing grind on other MMOs, instead of what GW2 has been over the last year.
They could have just as easily not add in a ticket requirement (multiple tickets if you include gambits), and it’d be just like how all their previous content is: no grind required to play them if you just want to dive into them!Thank you for your definition of grind to include an ambiguous time frame, despite the definition of grinding not requiring time frame as a cut-off point of when something is a grind or not.
It’s great you got a bunch of tickets out in the open world, so did I while grinding, and then I used those tickets to access the fun stuff. I’m pretty sure I got more tickets than you from my grinding, too!
Going by your post, it’s clear the “majority” is ready to accept grind to get to the fun stuff again, like every other MMO.
Anet’s started on a good path here for people like you, and will probably gradually increase the grind amount for future content, so over time so you won’t notice that it’s the same as every other MMO. But you’re also easily distract by the other carrots so you won’t notice the grind anyway, so it’ll work better for you.I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree, because I’m not grinding. You may be, but I suggest that’s not anyone’s problem but yours. You seem to be the main voice on this issue.
And you know, if other people felt I was wrong, you can bet your bottom dollar there’d be a flood of people disagreeing with me. So far, it’s pretty much you.
I’ve got to agree with Blue. The game is a grind. You cannot argue that it is not a grind because you aren’t grinding as much as other MMOs. It doesn’t work like that. That’s like saying someone who has 100$ is rich because the other person has 1$. This isn’t true, 100$ is just a days work, not being rich.
Oh for crying out loud.
ANet can change the game’s direction as they see fit whether you like it or not. It’s their game. I am not telling people to stop suggesting or something, but clinging to an old design, really?
If the old design doesn’t match what majority of people like, what the current trend is or doesn’t promote the gameplay longetivity to the masses and doesn’t promote income – they will change it.
They are a company for god’s sake – they will want to earn as much as they can. They are not a charity to make people happy all the time.
Making their customers happy should be on their priority list. If the customers aren’t happy then they aren’t going to make ‘all the money they can.’
3335 Hours over the past 9 months.
[/quote]
So many hours. I’ve only got ~300 over 11 months. How do you find the time to play?
On a side note, some simple math calculates that to 9-10 hours a day.
(edited by Frrz.5086)
It is obvious that the developers didn’t stick to the things they stated in the Manifesto. If they did, the game would be good and people wouldn’t be quitting to go back to GW1 (like me).
i7-3770K (Delidded) @ 4.6GHz | nVidia GTX TITAN X@ 1468/7800
ASUS Sabertooth Z77 | 16GB Corsair Dominator Platinum 1866MHz @ 2400MHz
Samsung 840 PRO 512GB SSD | Windows 10 x64
ASUS Sabertooth Z77 | 16GB Corsair Dominator Platinum 1866MHz @ 2400MHz
Samsung 840 PRO 512GB SSD | Windows 10 x64
It is obvious that the developers didn’t stick to the things they stated in the Manifesto. If they did, the game would be good and people wouldn’t be quitting to go back to GW1 (like me).
Oooh, get ready…
Fire up the Hyperbowl ma, we’re going to town!
Would you like some hard cheeze with your sad whine?
Would you like some hard cheeze with your sad whine?