Guild Wars 2

MokahTGS.7850:

I don’t understand why people feel that they should be given something that they don’t deserve. 100% Completion is just that…completion. Asking for the WvW parts to be taken out is the same as asking for vista to be taken out.

Here’s my issue with it. It’s not about it being “too hard” for me to complete. It’s not about my not really wanting to do WvW or PvP, although that’s a little of it.

It’s that if myself and other people are just running around in there to get exploration points, we’re dead weight to the people that actually ARE there for the fight. I don’t want to be that person who’s not helping. I don’t want to take the spot of someone who wanted to participate. It’s like if there was an achievement for completing a dungeon without ever attacking anything. Would you want me on your dungeon run if I was just going to stand around picking my nose until you killed everything?

I know, in the grand scheme of WvW, one player or even 10 running around without actually participating probably doesn’t really make much difference. But some of us are … not jerks? I don’t like the idea of taking up a space to not actually do the content as it is designed.

bluestocking.6148:

MokahTGS.7850:

I don’t understand why people feel that they should be given something that they don’t deserve. 100% Completion is just that…completion. Asking for the WvW parts to be taken out is the same as asking for vista to be taken out.

Here’s my issue with it. It’s not about it being “too hard” for me to complete. It’s not about my not really wanting to do WvW or PvP, although that’s a little of it.

It’s that if myself and other people are just running around in there to get exploration points, we’re dead weight to the people that actually ARE there for the fight. I don’t want to be that person who’s not helping. I don’t want to take the spot of someone who wanted to participate. It’s like if there was an achievement for completing a dungeon without ever attacking anything. Would you want me on your dungeon run if I was just going to stand around picking my nose until you killed everything?

I know, in the grand scheme of WvW, one player or even 10 running around without actually participating probably doesn’t really make much difference. But some of us are … not jerks? I don’t like the idea of taking up a space to not actually do the content as it is designed.

I actually understand your point; it’s something that would worry me. But I think a lot of players in WvW understand too. In the midst of my last bout, a commander asked me to acquire some supply and put a little building into a trebuchet. I said I was just running through map completion, but would be more than happy to stop up a moment and help out. It took about one minute, and I believe said commander was happy.

It’s not like the zerg will go for the skill points or the vistas, so it’s sort of the norm to see people running though without aggressively going after things. And if you see your server going after Stonemist and you need it? It doesn’t hurt to help out.

- There are people feeling like they are being coerced to WvW.

- There are people saying that it really isn’t Coercion and it isn’t that bad

= Problem is there is a bunch of people feeling it was being forced upon them to WvW, maybe they can do something or change something to make it feel less forced upon?

I don’t see any argument on this really, who are others to say that what you are feeling is incorrect? In a logical standpoint it is still forcing no matter how you look at it with ups and down. But just a subtle way of forcing in a indirect manner, that someone don’t HAVE to get full exploration and not get legendaries or a map fullfillment.

People can deal with it, but if I use this same subtle coercion to everyone on everything I can do (not saying Anet is doing it on everything but their actions affect many at once ) and ask them to deal with it, It really doesn’t promote healthy relationship and positive feedback on the matter.

-But looking at the other side of the spectrum It isn’t easy to get PvE people to actually want to go WvW without a small push in the general direction. (although the mapcompletion is more than a small push) What they need is a required light touch which they are still acquiring.

bluestocking.6148:

MokahTGS.7850:

I don’t understand why people feel that they should be given something that they don’t deserve. 100% Completion is just that…completion. Asking for the WvW parts to be taken out is the same as asking for vista to be taken out.

Here’s my issue with it. It’s not about it being “too hard” for me to complete. It’s not about my not really wanting to do WvW or PvP, although that’s a little of it.

It’s that if myself and other people are just running around in there to get exploration points, we’re dead weight to the people that actually ARE there for the fight. I don’t want to be that person who’s not helping. I don’t want to take the spot of someone who wanted to participate. It’s like if there was an achievement for completing a dungeon without ever attacking anything. Would you want me on your dungeon run if I was just going to stand around picking my nose until you killed everything?

I know, in the grand scheme of WvW, one player or even 10 running around without actually participating probably doesn’t really make much difference. But some of us are … not jerks? I don’t like the idea of taking up a space to not actually do the content as it is designed.

WvW isn’t really PvP as you think it is. The majority of it is “get past that mob of red tags to get to that structure, beat it down and kill the champion mob (hey! PvE! Also, dragonite ore! And lots of it) and stand in the circle”. The only difference is that it isn’t designed to be completed solo. It’s meant to be for your entire server to come together to battle for those structures and keep them.

If you just regear with soldier/knights/cavalier gear for WvW (available in temple NPCs), you’ll make it pretty far. Hell, you might even like it more than “attack this champ with 50 people, move to next waypoint, repeat”.

WvW map completion is ridiculously easy if you play it often. It’s usually just the 1 or 2 keeps in EBG that’s the problem, but with RNG colours, it’s not as much of an issue as before. I just wish it was more randomised. Blackgate has been green since the end of leagues all except 1 week.

I hated the WvW piece of map completion, not because it was PvP, but because with the match-ups we had it essentially amounted to waiting 5 weeks until the colors lined up in such a way that I could epically complete my legendary by sauntering out of spawn and walking into the nearest keep one Saturday morning after the queue went down.

God forbid you get an achievement which calls for playing the game by actually playing the game. I understand you don’t like WvW or PvP, but you are not entitled to any achievement, or any thing in the game for that matter. Map completion is a feat which shows you have been throughout the entirety of Guild Wars 2, and part of Guild Wars 2 is WvW. It’s part of the game. It just is. You don’t have to go there if you don’t want to, but that achievement is reserved for people who do go there and overcome the challenges it brings.

a·chieve·ment
??CH?vm?nt/
noun
noun: achievement; plural noun: achievements

1. A thing done successfully, typically by effort, courage, or skill.
“to reach this stage is a great achievement”
synonyms: attainment, realization, accomplishment, fulfillment, implementation, execution, performance;

P.S. I would add to that definition “overcoming a challenge” as part of an achievement.

I’ve completed the map 4 times until now, I know players who done this already 8 times.
It’s good how it is now. WvW mapcompletion may depend on the server you’re playing on, but still, I think it’s good the way it is.

We get a few of these threads a week, it seems. I know the search function is kittened but still, just skimming the forums regularly will get you any number of them to bump instead of making a new one

Anyway, I don’t enjoy roaming in WvW, I die even one on one (though it’s possible that thief that 2 shotted my guardian was haxing, she’s got a lot of defense and everyone else had to beat on her for a while). But I have one gold star and am closing in on my second, after which there is no reason to do it again. Heck, there’s no reason to do it now, I’m not making any Legendaries. My guardian just needs to explore, it’s part of her Hunt.

A royal pain in the behind, yes. Needs changing, no. The only point where I feel it gets beyond the pale is when LS event achieves require navigating PvP JP’s where others hang out purely to grief people attempting the achieves. That splits the community every time and angers everyone.

It won’t change TheNinjaCupcake.
Colin thinks WvW can be a “middle ground” but unless significant steps can be made to get something that both camps like it will have a hard time doing this.

If the achievement did not come hand in hand with gifts of exploration for the legendary, then one could argue for its removal. But now that achievement chests contain badges of honor, it definitely needs to remain as is. Legendaries should show that a player has done a lot of the game. I am against them being sold on the TP for that reason.

The only solution to the “problem” to me would be splitting the achievement in three: PvE, WvW, and the sum of the first two (like the wintersday meta achievement that awards the mini and the title). The title and gifts of exploration would be tied to the sum achievement to match how it currently works.

Even removing the Borderlands times 3 bit would help a lot… I’ve mapped one borderland, why would I have to map the other two identical ones?

You’d still have to map one and the bit in the middle (I always forget what its called) and that’s enough of a frustration for those (like me) who don’t care one bit about any form of PvP.

I’d go for that, LadyRhonwyn. The sameness of the maps gets tedious and doesn’t feel like exploring at all.

Donari.5237:

I’d go for that, LadyRhonwyn. The sameness of the maps gets tedious and doesn’t feel like exploring at all.

Those who actually WvW would not like this as completing the borderlands does give blueprints and other WvW useful things I believe.

I’ve been stuck at 99% map completion for more than a month now, because all I need is to explore the green base in Eternal Battlegrounds. Problem is, I haven’t been in WvW when Gunnar’s Hold was green, and it seems we never are green. Is there a list of the WvW colour rotation or can anyone tell me when I will finally be able to get it?

The map completion system itself is fine.
World Completion is incomplete, lacking many maps.

In the OP there are many points I’ve argued against in the past, but during the last debate I noticed something that actually made me reconsider the situation:

The “Been There, Done That” achievement specifically references Tyria. The mists exist between worlds, presumably outside Tyria.

I spend most of my gw2 playtime at WvW, and though in most cases map completion is not that much of a problem, I have to admit its not that much related to the personal player skill.

If you happen to be in a matchup where your server totally dominates the opponents, you can basically complete each map within like hour or less.

However there are (or at least untill recently there were) servers located at the bottom of the rankings, which sometime lost 95% of everything there is to loose in the first hours of the match.

I mean usually you can wait a few weeks till your server is Blue/Red/Green and then complete the missing keeps and stuff, but if you are on such server which loses their BL
in first day and can’t get it back you are basically screwed. And there is nothing you can do about it because no matter how good a player you are you will not take garri or even a tower by yourself.

So maybe the WvW could be excluded from the map completion, or it’s completion could be a separate achievement, since it’s not really something that you can achieve on your own. (even of you complete map solo – it’s because other players from your server made this possible by holding/capturing the fortifications)

I apologize for not doing better research on threads that were available, but I suppose what’s done is done.
In response to all of this feedback: Yes, achievements are meant to be feats in which you overcome challenges, but the mistake is believing that those challenges MUST come from WvW or PvE. As LadyRhonwyn said, even removing the x3 exploration of WvW maps would be nice. Besides, a definition is only as good as the context it’s in, and in this case the context is inconsistent. If Anet is so bent on creating an integrated society among WvW, PvP, and PvE, then why are there only two achievement sets reflecting this? The ONLY achievements based in both PvE and WvW are jumping puzzles and map completion, and at least with jumping puzzles you can wait for an empty world and hope no one’s standing by to jump you in the darkness. If we’re supposed to believe that Anet is trying to integrate the three aspects of the game, then why doesn’t the Emperor title require you to equip all the cultural armors AND a bunch of PvP armor sets? Why don’t the Explorer achievements take you into WvW? Why don’t the Slayer achievements have a slot for player kills, like there are in the PvP only achievements? The fact of the matter is, the game is NOT integrated well with all three aspects, and it seems rather silly that only two achievement sectors do this.

And if the problem is that WvW exploration yields blueprints or other useful items, then the simple solution is to change it. WvW as it stands isn’t a good “middle ground” as Anet claims; anyone on a lower populated server risks their life going in there just to get a silly vista. And for the people who use others who have done map completion time and time again…that’s not enough of a reason for me. Do they also play WvW? If not, how many tries did it take them? How frustrated were they? I understand that that’s the point of an achievement, but there are better ways to do this. As far as integration goes, I’m not convinced this even needs to happen. PvP and WvW are things that people either like or don’t, and being forced to go into them to get PvE achievements won’t change that.

To (sort of) quote Xenon above: God forbid we expect the Anet philosophy of “Play how you want” to actually hold any water. Who is to say what “actually playing the game” means? If we’re supposed to be able to play how you want, I expect to take that statement at face value. Actually playing the game can mean any number of things and I think it’s horribly selfish and conceited to think that WvW or PvP is the deciding factor in how well or how thoroughly anyone plays this game. That’s a load of bull. I see no reason why it’s any less challenging to complete all of the Explorer and Dungeon achievements, and complete all of Tyria including Southsun Cove than it is to run through WvW where everything is ALREADY UNLOCKED. That’s not exploration, that’s running from point A to point B as quickly as possible.

Yes, I do plan to attempt map completion, and I suspect that eventually, I’ll succeed. Will I feel accomplished? Yes. But it will be a sense of relieved accomplishment, like the kind of thing you feel after playing through Dark Souls, not the kind of achievement I feel after doing a task that I find legitimately challenging. Simply put, the challenging part of WvW map completion is getting ganked by a horde of players who want their kill points. That’s not even challenging, that’s called “repeatedly try multiple strategies until someone doesn’t see you”.

If Anet really wants to integrate all aspects of the game, then, like I said above, they need to make more achievements obtainable in a combination of WvW, PvE, and PvP. Since I don’t think integration is even a good idea, then why can’t we revamp the system and make it a little less “Play the way the majority wants” and a little more “Play the way you want”.

**Edit: Thank you, Hubal! This is exactly what I’m trying to get across! It isn’t about player skill, it’s about the world setup at the time! And it’s not like you can guest on other servers, you need to pay gems to transfer, and then once you get map completion, you have to pay again if you want to go back. Honestly, if I worked at WvW, I have no doubt I’d be good at it. But that doesn’t matter. I can be the best WvWer ever and still not stand a chance against five dudes. That’s the point I’m trying to make.

Xenon.4537:

Map completion is a feat which shows you have been throughout the entirety of Guild Wars 2

Except it doesn’t. It only shows you’ve been where the developer wants you to go.

Listen, If I want to craft a legendary weapons, I have to go into dungeons to earn tokens. Except I don’t do dungeons, well. Just about every group kicks me because even though I tell them I hadn’t done it before or enough times to know all the shortcuts they still get frustrated when I get turned around or killed repeatedly in the same spike trap.

This is why I don’t like dungeons but if I’m ever going to craft a legendary, I have to buck up and do it. Strangely enough the map completion in the WvW are relatively easy but time consuming (as in it’ll take weeks to attain).

narrock.6890:

Ashabhi.1365:

This again? Must be Tuesday (to paraphrase another poster in another thread…)

I want the Dive Master achievement. I don’t want to have to do jumping puzzles for it. I think JP’s are a waste of time and energy. I think they should be removed from the requirement.

I want the Slayer Title. I don’t want to have to go to Orr and kill Giants to get it. I don’t want to be forced to do something I don’t want to do in order to get my Achievement.

/endsarcasm

I’m sorry. I don’t have sympathy for you. If you don’t want to go to a WvW map, then don’t go. But keep in mind that if you don’t, then you’re not entitled to your 100%.

If you’re only doing it for your Gift, then find something else to do or whip out that credit card and buy your legendary. It’s much better to do that than be forced into doing something you don’t want to do…

post like this are pointless and insulting; people leave games over people like you so stop.

“I’m sorry. I don’t have sympathy for you. If you don’t want to go to a WvW map, then don’t go. But keep in mind that if you don’t, then you’re not entitled to your 100%”

yes they and your just being rude

Apologies for seeming “rude.” It was not my intention. It was late, and I was rather frustrated to read yet another thread on the subject. There are plenty of these threads. I am sure ANet has seen it. Starting a new one isn’t going to get your issue heard any faster.

Having said that, I still maintain that if you want the achievement (or the Gift,) be prepared to do the work to get it.

Asking for the WvW maps to be excluded is like asking for the Gifts you have to buy from Dungeons in order to craft a legendary to be removed. It is all part of it.

Personal opinion: I hate WvW from the depth of my very soul, I curse it, despise it, wish it burned. Nothing against those who love it, I am glad they do and they can play it for as long and as much as they please.
The fact that it is required for map completion, angers me beyond belief. 1 Because it’s not up to me. If my server sucks in WvW there is not much I can do alone. I can’t solo a blasted fort, tower or whatever the names are, just in order to get 1 PoI and occasionally 1 vista. 2 Three maps are the very same, with like 1 skill point changing. This is horrid. 3 One must wait likely 3 weeks to finish map, because you need the colours to switch, when you are lucky, and I never am. Last time I got map completion it took me SIX weeks only for WvW borderlands!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am a person who likes to complete things, I want my characters to be done with map, with story, have every story dungeon and so on. Yet I can’t, because I will never feel again like to bother with WvW maps, also considering how unrewarding it is in the end. And as the OP said, it makes me unwilling and annoyed. And I know there is lots of people feeling the same. Or should we simply do like some, buy a Commander title and lead zergs brainlessly to conquer the points we need, without any strategy nor knowledge? Looks like it.

Here’s my feelings on the subject.

I’m basically a PvE’er that dabbles in WvW a bit. I’m not good at PvP and generally don’t enjoy it. If i’m caught out on the map alone pretty much any half-decent PvP’er can take me down, but I’ll spend time as a “mindless zergling” having fun on the map, taking keeps and earning points. I have 100% map completion on 3 characters and I did it mostly by solo roaming, or roaming with a friend over the course of about 2 months.

However, I understand Wreave’s argument and I respect his position. Basically, he’s saying that he feels ArenaNet is coercing him into a WvW map and he doesn’t like that! Therefore he’s rebeling and refusing to enter WvW on principle. That’s his choice. I’d like to encourage him to change his mind and try it out once. He may absolutely hate it, but then again, he may not.

On the other hand, I don’t understand the argument of “ArenaNet is forcing me to PvP and I don’t like that!!!!!” Guess what? They aren’t. You can finish 100% map without ever PvP’ing. Ever. Even if you’re on a bad server. Several of the points (the ones within Keeps, Garrisons and Stonemist) are accessible without ever leaving a “safe zone” if your server has built a waypoint in those areas. Several more are in “open map” areas that you can run to and tag without breaking down enemy forts. Others will be in towers that your server owns and you can make a mad dash into those towers. Its really not as dangerous on these maps as it sounds. There aren’t enemy commandos hiding in every bush waiting to pounce on the poor unsuspecting PvE’er.

If you truly hate PvP and don’t ever ever want to encounter an enemy player that’s fine. You can fully map these zones without seeing an enemy. It will just take you longer to do so than someone who participates in the action.

I play a lil bit of WvW and I’m still very angry about this.

WvW completion has more to do with your server dominance than it does your personal game play. Which isn’t fair.

ArenaNets ignorance on this is pretty telling. Their belief that forcing people into WvW to get map completion is pretty inept as well. People who don’t like PvP don’t like PvP. Period.

What the kitten does WvW have to do with map completion?

I’m gonna keep my 97% completion. I simply can’t wait till the other games of 2014 drop so I can put GW2 and it’s dense decision making behind me.

As a PvE’er who dislikes PvP, I’m kinda annoyed at ANet’s insistence on trying to push more people to do WvW or PvP (they wanted to add the Heart of the Mists for World Completion too!) I don’t particularly like fighting other players (aside from Activities like Keg Brawl or Southsun Survival), and I dislike having to constantly look over my shoulder when I’m mapping in hostile territory. It’s always a feeling of relief when I’m done and I can return to the safety of my Keep, which I don’t think is the experience ANet is hoping I would get from WvW.

That said, from a design perspective, I can totally understand why they’re doing it. Having more players doing more aspects of the game promotes game longevity, especially since PvP is a much bigger hook to keep players playing than PvE content is. There’s also the fact that designers take pride in their work and having a large segment of your game ignored by the majority of players must feel awful. (I’m thinking primarily of the sPvP segment, which I hear is practically deserted compared to PvE or even WvW.)

I just think there’s better ways to go about it. I think that splitting off PvE and WvW/PvP map completion would be a good first step. Why not have Tyria Map Completion and The Mists Map Completion as separate achievements? That way, if PvE completionists want to complete it without setting foot into WvW or PvP, they can, and likewise the WvW/PvP players who don’t want to do PvE can also get their bit done. You get one Gift of Exploration for completing either, so at the end of the day, you still get two Gifts.

To be clear again… My dominant emotion in response to the map completion requirement, is not fear or trepidation of WvW or PvP in general. Its strong anger at having PvP stuff shoved into an achievement where it simply does not belong.

And for those who just say, “Try it, maybe you’ll like it.” you’re missing my point. Now that its required for the Map Completion achievement, I very intentionally WON’T do WvW. I will leave that map completion at 95%, and every time that I login, I will see that achievement banner; and every time I see someone with a gold star by their nameplate, I will be reminded that ArenaNet thinks its okay to try to shove a playstyle down my throat just to fatten their own pocketbook. And I’ll remember how much that ticks me off.

And then when I visit the store and and weigh whether or not to buy something, I’ll remember that again, and I’ll choose not to spend my money when I otherwise would have. And when some other game comes along that allows me to play PvE without shoving PvP down my throat, I’ll say “Yes” to that more easily than I would have otherwise. And when I’m ready to go do some PvP, I’ll go to that game rather than GW2.

Now obviously not everyone has my extreme reaction. There are plenty of people for whom Anet’s coercion method will work. But as responses on this topic show, I’m not the only one who is quite angry with this type of coercion, and I’m not the only one who is curtailing PvP/spending as a result.

For folks who don’t understand that, you just don’t understand the value of a good grudge. Contrary to what you may have heard, aggro is useful in life.

I understand a business decision that allows screwing over some customers if gain from other customers exceeds the loss from those you treat poorly. But my question for ArenaNet is: Are you actually measuring that? Are you getting a good feel for the number of players who are really ticked off about this? And for what impact that has on your sales?

Reverence.6915:

bluestocking.6148:

MokahTGS.7850:

I don’t understand why people feel that they should be given something that they don’t deserve. 100% Completion is just that…completion. Asking for the WvW parts to be taken out is the same as asking for vista to be taken out.

Here’s my issue with it. It’s not about it being “too hard” for me to complete. It’s not about my not really wanting to do WvW or PvP, although that’s a little of it.

It’s that if myself and other people are just running around in there to get exploration points, we’re dead weight to the people that actually ARE there for the fight. I don’t want to be that person who’s not helping. I don’t want to take the spot of someone who wanted to participate. It’s like if there was an achievement for completing a dungeon without ever attacking anything. Would you want me on your dungeon run if I was just going to stand around picking my nose until you killed everything?

I know, in the grand scheme of WvW, one player or even 10 running around without actually participating probably doesn’t really make much difference. But some of us are … not jerks? I don’t like the idea of taking up a space to not actually do the content as it is designed.

WvW isn’t really PvP as you think it is. The majority of it is “get past that mob of red tags to get to that structure, beat it down and kill the champion mob (hey! PvE! Also, dragonite ore! And lots of it) and stand in the circle”. The only difference is that it isn’t designed to be completed solo. It’s meant to be for your entire server to come together to battle for those structures and keep them.

If you just regear with soldier/knights/cavalier gear for WvW (available in temple NPCs), you’ll make it pretty far. Hell, you might even like it more than “attack this champ with 50 people, move to next waypoint, repeat”.

WvW map completion is ridiculously easy if you play it often. It’s usually just the 1 or 2 keeps in EBG that’s the problem, but with RNG colours, it’s not as much of an issue as before. I just wish it was more randomised. Blackgate has been green since the end of leagues all except 1 week.

But see, I don’t play it often. Or, really, ever. I also don’t really want to be that person where someone yells out an acronym that I don’t know at me, expecting me to do something, and I have no idea what he means so I get yelled at.

I can’t comment on whether I’d like it better than a champ zerg, since I don’t participate in those either.

I just finished reading four pages of banter, and I still don’t understand why the OP is complaining. The requirement for the achievement is 100% Map Completion. As stated, you must meet said requirement of doing all things on all maps. If you’re unable to get 100% of the map finished, then you don’t deserve the achievement.

This is not a matter of PvE vs PvP vs WvW. This is a CHARACTER ACHIEVEMENT.

*puts on straw hat

It’s like complaining that you can’t get PvP or WvW Ranks from doing only PvE.

Zaxares.5419:

As a PvE’er who dislikes PvP, I’m kinda annoyed at ANet’s insistence on trying to push more people to do WvW or PvP (they wanted to add the Heart of the Mists for World Completion too!) I don’t particularly like fighting other players (aside from Activities like Keg Brawl or Southsun Survival), and I dislike having to constantly look over my shoulder when I’m mapping in hostile territory. It’s always a feeling of relief when I’m done and I can return to the safety of my Keep, which I don’t think is the experience ANet is hoping I would get from WvW.

Heart of the Mists is the lobby; it’s a PvE zone. (And a free ticket back to LA, too.)

For anyone who’d like to get the world completion achievement, but really doesn’t like the idea of fighting players in WvW, you may be able to get some assistance from your server community.
For players on my server, Stormbluff Isle, there is a community website at http://www.stormbluffisle.com/ – you can ask for assistance on map completion in the WvW forums. We have quite a lot of PvE/WvW crossover guilds who can help out with map completion and the WvW jumping puzzles as well. It will take repeated visits as we never own the whole map all at once anymore, but you don’t have to do any PvP at all if you don’t want to. Got plenty of experienced WvW players and scouts who can keep you well clear of the trouble spots.

Ben K.6238:

Heart of the Mists is the lobby; it’s a PvE zone. (And a free ticket back to LA, too.)

For anyone who’d like to get the world completion achievement, but really doesn’t like the idea of fighting players in WvW, you may be able to get some assistance from your server community.
For players on my server, Stormbluff Isle, there is a community website at http://www.stormbluffisle.com/ – you can ask for assistance on map completion in the WvW forums. We have quite a lot of PvE/WvW crossover guilds who can help out with map completion and the WvW jumping puzzles as well. It will take repeated visits as we never own the whole map all at once anymore, but you don’t have to do any PvP at all if you don’t want to. Got plenty of experienced WvW players and scouts who can keep you well clear of the trouble spots.

Oh, I know. But you can be certain that ANet wouldn’t just stop at making Heart of the Mists the only PvP mapping zone if they went ahead with that change. If they’re serious about using world completion to get people trying PvP, they’d definitely include points in actual PvP maps as well.

For anybody who’s mapping as well, I agree that following the zerg as it captures points is the easiest way to map. If you’re starting out, whenever you get a map of a different colour, map the following areas:

1. On your home Borderland map, everything up to and including the two Keeps in the Bay and Hills areas, but leaving stuff south of there.

2. On enemy Borderland maps, map the sections up to and including the Keep in the Bay/Hills area closer to your spawn point, if possible. Map the southern Camp and its environs if the opportunity presents itself.

3. In Eternal Battlegrounds, stick to mapping the areas closest to your Keep (the two camps and 4 Towers, along with the Mercenary Camp and skill point closest to your area). If your server manages to capture Stonemist Castle, get in there and map the 3 gates and grab the skill point and Vista while you have the opportunity. SMC tends to flip fairly regularly from my experience, so don’t dawdle!

I am up for the idea you will need WvW. It makes it more interesting o get. Yeah you may fail multiple times or it may take a day or two but onces you get the little start next to your name, its worth it.

If you are on Ehmry Bay send me a message and I can help you

Wreave.2138:

Its strong anger at having PvP stuff shoved into an achievement where it simply does not belong.

Now that its required for the Map Completion achievement, I very intentionally WON’T do WvW. I will leave that map completion at 95%, and every time that I login, I will see that achievement banner; and every time I see someone with a gold star by their nameplate, I will be reminded that ArenaNet thinks its okay to try to shove a playstyle down my throat just to fatten their own pocketbook. And I’ll remember how much that ticks me off.

Calm down, step back, and evaluate. Is this really something to get so upset about? Is it really worth taking it personally?

Look there’s a difference between being frustrated and throwing a temper tantrum. This is not something worth writing off WvW or not finishing your map completion over. Stop taking it personally, stop obsessing over it, grit your teeth and get it done. Once it’s over you’ll be glad you did it and all of this anger will seem ridiculous in retrospect.

I don’t mind so much that WvW is required for map completion, but the way they executed it is a complete and utter travesty. Putting vistas and pois inside keeps and towers completely disregards players requests and opinions. Move them outside where they’re more easily accessible, remove the requirement for doing all 4 BLs, and for God’s sake come up with a better way to rotate the colors. I’m on a server that has very little WvW population and we were lucky to be red. We will never be green and it’s off-putting and frustrating to have to keep throwing myself at the enemy just to grab one little square on a map. It doesn’t take days to do. In fact I’ve been waiting months and still haven’t had the opportunity to capture any green points. I’ve asked a zerg that was so large it forced Straits into an overflow to come into WvW with me, all I got was nopes and "this is a PvE server.

Ok enough crying and ranting. Seriously though there needs to be a better way to rotate the colors or at least move the PoIs and Vistas. The puts the smaller servers at an unfair advantage and does not motivate me into playing WvW. I don’t want to stay, in fact I just want to leave already. WvW should be inherently fun and the devs should come up with a better reason to WANT to play it then forcing us into it.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I just finished reading four pages of banter, and I still don’t understand why the OP is complaining. The requirement for the achievement is 100% Map Completion. As stated, you must meet said requirement of doing all things on all maps. If you’re unable to get 100% of the map finished, then you don’t deserve the achievement.

This is not a matter of PvE vs PvP vs WvW. This is a CHARACTER ACHIEVEMENT.

*puts on straw hat

It’s like complaining that you can’t get PvP or WvW Ranks from doing only PvE.

Yes because the map completion achievement is a server wide reward, not a personal one. It’s something that requires the help and cooperation of a large group of players for something they may or may not benefit from.

ixiduffixi.6384:

Yes because the map completion achievement is a server wide reward, not a personal one. It’s something that requires the help and cooperation of a large group of players for something they may or may not benefit from.

Are you trying to talk about WvW? If so, you can’t compare playing WvW competitively with willingly helping a single player cap a POI. All you have to do is play WvW as it’s meant to be played, and everyone benefits, including the player who wants Map Completion.

I really don’t know what the problem is. I got my first map completion around december 2012. Took me quite a few times to get the WvW completion but if you log in to WvW every now and then and check if your server has the places you are missing, go and collect them. If not, try to run with the main zerg and get the points you are still missing.

If you can’t get them this week, try next week again. Really, it’s not a big deal.

As a WvW player only, I see quite a few people that come to WvW, claiming to hate pvp in GW2 and only do WvW for the completion. 3 weeks later they joined the biggest WvW guilds on my server because they say PvE is boring compared to WvW.

Also, as a WvW player only, to get a legendary, I have to run dungeons. I don’t like to run dungeons. Should I write a post about asking ANet to remove the need for dungeons for a legendary? How about we start removing crafting too since I don’t like to do it?

I also want those fancy backpacks but I hate PvE.. I wish we could get them in WvW too without doing PvE!

Gamers these days really whine about every little thing they can whine about.

WvW is part of the world. If you want World Completion you have to go into WvW to get it. It isn’t going to kill you to spend a little time in WvW to grab the points. After all, a WvW player has to a great deal of PVE they have to do in order to get map completion.

Ben K.6238:

Heart of the Mists is the lobby; it’s a PvE zone. (And a free ticket back to LA, too.)

And that free ticket was the most useful thing I ever received from that zone.

For anyone who’d like to get the world completion achievement, but really doesn’t like the idea of fighting players in WvW, you may be able to get some assistance from your server community.
For players on my server, Stormbluff Isle, there is a community website at http://www.stormbluffisle.com/ – you can ask for assistance on map completion in the WvW forums. We have quite a lot of PvE/WvW crossover guilds who can help out with map completion and the WvW jumping puzzles as well. It will take repeated visits as we never own the whole map all at once anymore, but you don’t have to do any PvP at all if you don’t want to. Got plenty of experienced WvW players and scouts who can keep you well clear of the trouble spots.

I really wish my server had advertised like that for WvW.
Back when I finished it, I had to help kill off players.
IoJ’s teams would run and try to capture zones before quickly leaving them to the enemy. So really it depends on the server and those who constantly get curb stomped will have problems in the Battlegrounds section.

Though many do see Map Completion as a Character achievement, I disagree.
It inherently is a PvE achievement since 95% or so of the map belongs on the PvE side.
In fact most, if not all, of the Explorer achievements are PvE based.
So I won’t say it is bad game design, but rather jarring how we’ve gone from “you’ve done all this stuff in PvE! Congrats!” to “Now you’ve got to experiment in this other game mode.”

Yes the reply of “try it you might like it” will bounce from some lips.
It is sound advice, but face it sometimes you can try it and hate the experience.
I’ve done it, I’ve got my star, and even though they tried to retroactively award bonus chests in WvW I have no intention of collecting them.
Simply put: Tried and hated it, double so with the fact I needed to in order to get my 100%.

One could bring up that achievements are not supposed to be easy.
That is correct, but it still seems rather sad in game design that such a goal requires you to enter 5% of a game that maybe you’ll not ever play again.

To those who aren’t worried by such a requirement and are willing to experiment with all the game modes I applaud you. Chances are you are the types they are trying to target with these requirements, but then again if you were willing to try out those game modes anyways why bother with those requirements at all?

Achievements, at least to some, are designed to reward folks who focus on a goal and are rewarded within the construct of that game mode.

PvP’ers have their PvP achievements. No PvE’er who abhors that game mode would want to accomplish those goals. Just as no PvP’er who finds dungeons boring would give a skritt about the Dungeon Master. Once again those who are willing to try everything need not be examples here. You’re willing to play regardless.

Finally to those who say, in so many words, “man up and just do the kitten thing” I don’t see your words as particularly helpful. Those words are just as useful as “shut up and bleed for your server” which I’ve seen from the WvW community in threads.
It is bombastic, toxic, and overall not helpful.
Yes these threads get tiresome to see, but they are just as valid as those who want other things in this game.

Disagree all you want, but it does show that WvW should either stand on its own or work really hard to be this supposed “middle ground” that the developers are trying to do.

Personally if the achievement was scrapped I wouldn’t shed too many tears, if it just made WvW stand stronger as a game mode alone without resorting to bribing folks to try out a mode they might not like. As for those who were going to try it anyway, I do envy you. I still can’t get any enjoyment from it. I spent a lot of gold making trebs for folks that just abandoned them when zergs approached.

timidobserver.7925:

WvW is part of the world. If you want World Completion you have to go into WvW to get it. It isn’t going to kill you to spend a little time in WvW to grab the points. After all, a WvW player has to a great deal of PVE they have to do in order to get map completion.

Which means WvW needs to have more in order for it to stand alone.
That way WvW players wouldn’t need PvE to help with their income or map completion.

I want to get this new car but the stupid dealership is coercing me into giving them money for it, wtf?

Mugiwara Luffy.1087:

I really don’t know what the problem is. I got my first map completion around december 2012. Took me quite a few times to get the WvW completion but if you log in to WvW every now and then and check if your server has the places you are missing, go and collect them. If not, try to run with the main zerg and get the points you are still missing.

If you can’t get them this week, try next week again. Really, it’s not a big deal.

As a WvW player only, I see quite a few people that come to WvW, claiming to hate pvp in GW2 and only do WvW for the completion. 3 weeks later they joined the biggest WvW guilds on my server because they say PvE is boring compared to WvW.

Also, as a WvW player only, to get a legendary, I have to run dungeons. I don’t like to run dungeons. Should I write a post about asking ANet to remove the need for dungeons for a legendary? How about we start removing crafting too since I don’t like to do it?

I also want those fancy backpacks but I hate PvE.. I wish we could get them in WvW too without doing PvE!

Gamers these days really whine about every little thing they can whine about.

Yes but here’s the problem, what do you do when your server’s zerg is only a handful of people? My server has problems holding our own BLs. How can I even hope to take the towers and keeps of the top scoring server? I don’t disagree with the fact that WvW is part of the map completion, my problem is that the way it’s done it could take months just to grab 3 POIs. It’s not fun and it’s extremely frustrating for those of us who really don’t want to be in WvW at all. I’m sure for the larger servers it’s not that big of a deal because the WvW population is decent. But for those of us who are on the servers with almost none, what are we to do?

bluestocking.6148:

MokahTGS.7850:

I don’t understand why people feel that they should be given something that they don’t deserve. 100% Completion is just that…completion. Asking for the WvW parts to be taken out is the same as asking for vista to be taken out.

Here’s my issue with it. It’s not about it being “too hard” for me to complete. It’s not about my not really wanting to do WvW or PvP, although that’s a little of it.

It’s that if myself and other people are just running around in there to get exploration points, we’re dead weight to the people that actually ARE there for the fight. I don’t want to be that person who’s not helping. I don’t want to take the spot of someone who wanted to participate. It’s like if there was an achievement for completing a dungeon without ever attacking anything. Would you want me on your dungeon run if I was just going to stand around picking my nose until you killed everything?

I know, in the grand scheme of WvW, one player or even 10 running around without actually participating probably doesn’t really make much difference. But some of us are … not jerks? I don’t like the idea of taking up a space to not actually do the content as it is designed.

This is by far the best argument I’ve seen against having to do WvW. This is a great post.

I’ve probably spent a grand total of 3 hours actually playing WvW. Maybe.

But I’ve got 2 of the 3 Borderlands 100% explored and only need 1 POI and 1 vista for EB. Just waiting for my realm to be green. I’ve done all this without having to fight more than a couple random roamers (all of which I lost due to being a PvE-er). It takes time, exploring only what’s controlled by my realm. And since the OP is only at 50%, time is ok. Pop into WvW and check the maps each time you decide to do some map completion. Grab a few that are controlled by your realm and then back to PvE land.

Also, join some zergs at night and follow em around as they cap outposts. You’ll do nothing but autoattack at times and get easy XP and exploration. Good for alts <80.

I’ll be honest, I wasn’t happy about WvW being a part of 100% completion. But I’ve muscled through it and realized it’s not as bad as you think. Call it coercion or manipulation all you like. If it gets people interested in WvW then it’s going to stay as-is for Anet.

Edit: bluestocking’s point has a lot of merit. If you play WvW and eventually get 100% exploration, kudos. But most people shooting for 100% will spend time specifically exploring and not playing WvW as designed. On busy servers, this is dead weight and holds up the queue for actual WvWers.

Vayne.8563:

bluestocking.6148:

MokahTGS.7850:

I don’t understand why people feel that they should be given something that they don’t deserve. 100% Completion is just that…completion. Asking for the WvW parts to be taken out is the same as asking for vista to be taken out.

Here’s my issue with it. It’s not about it being “too hard” for me to complete. It’s not about my not really wanting to do WvW or PvP, although that’s a little of it.

It’s that if myself and other people are just running around in there to get exploration points, we’re dead weight to the people that actually ARE there for the fight. I don’t want to be that person who’s not helping. I don’t want to take the spot of someone who wanted to participate. It’s like if there was an achievement for completing a dungeon without ever attacking anything. Would you want me on your dungeon run if I was just going to stand around picking my nose until you killed everything?

I know, in the grand scheme of WvW, one player or even 10 running around without actually participating probably doesn’t really make much difference. But some of us are … not jerks? I don’t like the idea of taking up a space to not actually do the content as it is designed.

This is by far the best argument I’ve seen against having to do WvW. This is a great post.

This is not a “great post” – it’s personal opinion and personal feeling on the matter, i.e., is completely irrelevant. People “take up space” to do the jumping puzzle and everything else and I don’t see anyone raging at them for it.

Getting WvW map completion is not hard. Be patient, work on other aspects of your legendary, and wait for the color switch to make it easy. Just keep checking the map all the time. Run in there real quick to grab a quick vista or something when your server has taken something over. Does everyone want everything handed to them these days?

TheNinjaCupcake.3465:

…

Don’t make Wvw pvp so big, it’s not, for the most part. Keep you eyes open and you’ll be fine.

You can move with zerg safely, you can do the map-travel thing when your zerg runs into another. Your zerg will not mind, they rather have you safely on spawn then getting downed mid-fight.

Ask a couple of guildies to team up, maybe some people who’ll also nee map completion will come, and maybe some in your guild have some Wvw experience. As a group, organized and even with little or no Wvw experinece, you will be able to roam safely, capture keeps and get most of you poi’s and vista’s. Other roamers are either solo or in small, usually non-organized groups and they will either go elsewhere or become your first wvw lootbags, should they decide to attack your group.

I really like WvWvW even with the issues it has (population balance, offense having much better rewards than defense). However, I think they should have avoided requiring people having to visit every building & camp for world completion. They could have used other carrots than an achievement to entice people into that game mode.

Please excuse any rudeness, perceived or otherwise. I have a bit of a migraine, so it’s not intentional, I promise!

I’m also going to be as brief as possible. Frankly, I’m sick of being told what to do, by devs who say this tactic is suitable because some people on high pop servers enjoyed being “encouraged” to join WvW, and by WvWers who insist that it’s simple enough to follow a zerg and get what I need. Devona’s Rest doesn’t have zergs. We have militias. Nor can I take my guild of largely newbies to the game and expect to have any more success. I don’t belong to a large guild—in fact I run my own for people still learning the game. It isn’t as simple as you all are pretending it is. Maybe on Tarnished Coast this is little more than another challenge on the path to glory, but on DR it’s a hellish experience of either getting steamrolled by a group of people glitching through the gates because there’s so many of them, or waiting months or even years for DR to actually take something I need. Yeah, that sounds like a whoooole lot of fun, guys. I think I’ll go do that right now.

I’m also sick of the argument that suggests that PvEers should suck it up because WvWers have to do a great deal of PvE. Seriously? That’s just insulting. And hypocritical to boot. The same people who say skritt like this are the people who berate PvEers because they aren’t being coerced. Well who’s coercing you into doing PvE? No one said you had to level characters or do jumping puzzles or complete the explorer achievements. You’re scaled to 80 in both PvP and WvW, so you can just go and do that without doing anything else. You see how ridiculous that sounds? We feel the same way. But you know why it’s different? Because WvW and PvP aren’t huge parts of GW 2! You can play the game without even setting foot there! However, as a game that is obviously mostly PvE, that part is at least a little bit required. So yeah, the fact that one of the achievements we look forward to getting on our own like the other 95% kind of ticks us off.

My biggest hindrance to map completion are area’s like orr where there are a ton of high level enemy that can dish out large amounts of damage & down you quicker than a thief in world vs world. Also because these map zones have very few players that may be able to help or want to help reach certain skill points/ poi’s & way points.
I just accept 100% map completion is not going to be obtainable for me. Then again does it matter unless you want the title or you need the gift of exploration for legendary crafting.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

ixiduffixi.6384:

Yes because the map completion achievement is a server wide reward, not a personal one. It’s something that requires the help and cooperation of a large group of players for something they may or may not benefit from.

Are you trying to talk about WvW? If so, you can’t compare playing WvW competitively with willingly helping a single player cap a POI. All you have to do is play WvW as it’s meant to be played, and everyone benefits, including the player who wants Map Completion.

I think the WvW maps should be part of map completion, and that getting folks to poke their heads in and see what this WvW business is all about is a good thing, but forcing them to not just participate but to be successful at it is counter to encouraging more folks to get involved in WvW.

What would be the harm in moving the POIs for map completion outside of the keeps so that players don’t have to wait for their color to come around? What about those players that are stuck in a cycle where their server is always out matched or that play outside of prime time on their server? Those players would still experience the map and get exposed to WvW but they wouldn’t be as frustrated.

TheNinjaCupcake.3465:

Please excuse any rudeness, perceived or otherwise. I have a bit of a migraine, so it’s not intentional, I promise!

I’m also going to be as brief as possible. Frankly, I’m sick of being told what to do, by devs who say this tactic is suitable because some people on high pop servers enjoyed being “encouraged” to join WvW, and by WvWers who insist that it’s simple enough to follow a zerg and get what I need. Devona’s Rest doesn’t have zergs. We have militias. Nor can I take my guild of largely newbies to the game and expect to have any more success. I don’t belong to a large guild—in fact I run my own for people still learning the game. It isn’t as simple as you all are pretending it is. Maybe on Tarnished Coast this is little more than another challenge on the path to glory, but on DR it’s a hellish experience of either getting steamrolled by a group of people glitching through the gates because there’s so many of them, or waiting months or even years for DR to actually take something I need. Yeah, that sounds like a whoooole lot of fun, guys. I think I’ll go do that right now.

I’m also sick of the argument that suggests that PvEers should suck it up because WvWers have to do a great deal of PvE. Seriously? That’s just insulting. And hypocritical to boot. The same people who say skritt like this are the people who berate PvEers because they aren’t being coerced. Well who’s coercing you into doing PvE? No one said you had to level characters or do jumping puzzles or complete the explorer achievements. You’re scaled to 80 in both PvP and WvW, so you can just go and do that without doing anything else. You see how ridiculous that sounds? We feel the same way. But you know why it’s different? Because WvW and PvP aren’t huge parts of GW 2! You can play the game without even setting foot there! However, as a game that is obviously mostly PvE, that part is at least a little bit required. So yeah, the fact that one of the achievements we look forward to getting on our own like the other 95% kind of ticks us off.

You don’t naturally deserve map completion, you don’t naturally deserve a legendary.

Those things have a high difficulty attached to them. They are restricted to only a few players that can fulfill the requirements and are willing to put in a lot of effort. One of the requirements is having enough patience to sit through several WvW cycles.

That’s intentional, it’s good design, it works fine.

AntiGw.9367:

TheNinjaCupcake.3465:

Please excuse any rudeness, perceived or otherwise. I have a bit of a migraine, so it’s not intentional, I promise!

I’m also going to be as brief as possible. Frankly, I’m sick of being told what to do, by devs who say this tactic is suitable because some people on high pop servers enjoyed being “encouraged” to join WvW, and by WvWers who insist that it’s simple enough to follow a zerg and get what I need. Devona’s Rest doesn’t have zergs. We have militias. Nor can I take my guild of largely newbies to the game and expect to have any more success. I don’t belong to a large guild—in fact I run my own for people still learning the game. It isn’t as simple as you all are pretending it is. Maybe on Tarnished Coast this is little more than another challenge on the path to glory, but on DR it’s a hellish experience of either getting steamrolled by a group of people glitching through the gates because there’s so many of them, or waiting months or even years for DR to actually take something I need. Yeah, that sounds like a whoooole lot of fun, guys. I think I’ll go do that right now.

I’m also sick of the argument that suggests that PvEers should suck it up because WvWers have to do a great deal of PvE. Seriously? That’s just insulting. And hypocritical to boot. The same people who say skritt like this are the people who berate PvEers because they aren’t being coerced. Well who’s coercing you into doing PvE? No one said you had to level characters or do jumping puzzles or complete the explorer achievements. You’re scaled to 80 in both PvP and WvW, so you can just go and do that without doing anything else. You see how ridiculous that sounds? We feel the same way. But you know why it’s different? Because WvW and PvP aren’t huge parts of GW 2! You can play the game without even setting foot there! However, as a game that is obviously mostly PvE, that part is at least a little bit required. So yeah, the fact that one of the achievements we look forward to getting on our own like the other 95% kind of ticks us off.

You don’t naturally deserve map completion, you don’t naturally deserve a legendary.

Those things have a high difficulty attached to them. They are restricted to only a few players that can fulfill the requirements and are willing to put in a lot of effort. One of the requirements is having enough patience to sit through several WvW cycles.

That’s intentional, it’s good design, it works fine.

It’s completely narrow minded posts like that this that get tiresome to read. Why should I be restricted from something I would like to work for, simply because I don’t like one particular aspect of the game? Why should I also be hindered because my server can’t muster the numbers to spare so I can capture a few out of the way keeps/towers? Also sit through several cycles? I’ve been sitting for months now. I need green side map completion and it’s never going to happen because of the ridiculous way they made the colors score exclusive. I have put in a quite a bit of work for my rewards. I did all of the mundane heart quests, visited all of the out of the way POIs in Lanar’s, grabbed all of the points and SPs in Orr. Why should we then have to rely on the cooperation of hundreds of other players for one personal reward. The system is not fine. It’s broken. If it was “fine” there wouldn’t so many complaints about it.

AntiGw.9367:

You don’t naturally deserve map completion, you don’t naturally deserve a legendary.

Those things have a high difficulty attached to them. They are restricted to only a few players that can fulfill the requirements and are willing to put in a lot of effort. One of the requirements is having enough patience to sit through several WvW cycles.

That’s intentional, it’s good design, it works fine.

Seriously? It’s posts like these that are what I was just talking about in the first place! Yeah, I get that you don’t automatically deserve anything in the game, but there’s a difference between achieving something—that is, successfully reaching a goal after overcoming many challenges and pitfalls along the way—and what WvW completion is to a lot of people, especially on low pop servers. You can challenge yourself and feel a sense of achievement without being shoehorned into something, and your closed-minded attitude towards people who dislike something that can be extremely frustrating on low pop servers and your refusal to see them as “worthy” is exactly why I will never join WvW willingly.

Besides, I never asked anyone to hand me a legendary or map completion. I’m perfectly willing to work for it. But I don’t want to work for it in WvW when all of the challenges I’ve faced and overcome have been of an entirely different nature. It isn’t about player skill or ability in WvW; it’s about how long you can sneak around before you’re murdered, and I’d appreciate it if people would stop pretending that WvW requires any level of skill when it’s just one person soloing.