Guild Wars 2

Valanga.5942:

Mortalis.4312:

Its not really the same. It is more comprehensive

Actually it’s true, everyone and their Quaggans’ gone jellymad because of the cultural t3 rip off and nobody noticed that the other 2 also are rip offs… But maybe ANet hopes that all the noise about the cultural and defenders who don’t know how to defend them in that, will make that go unnoticed…

It wouldn’t have mattered which race it was. If Charr T3 armor, or Asuran, or Norn or Sylvari armor was the model, there would have been the same outpouring of hate and discontent.

Reskins are a fact of life. Look how many weapons are reskins of other weapons. The other two were rip-offs of something that any person, regardless of race could get with karma. Only the light was a T3 armor.

Hello,

I was trying to think of a possible solution to solve this issue with people becoming frustrated and feeling ‘cheated’ due to the tier 3 human light armour and this is what I came up with (truly apologise if this has been suggested before)

In attempt to minimize the frustration among those who have purchased the flame kissed skin from the gem store but already own the tier 3 light cultural human skin, Arena Net could possibly send free flame kiss skins to those who have already owned the full tier 3 light skin beforehand and refund the gems spent on purchasing their flame kiss skin. Obviously, this suggestion will result in loss of profit for Arena Net, however it will preserve their reputation as a company by benefiting their angry customers as a result of an obvious poor decision by the company themselves.

On the other hand, those who bought the flame kiss skins but don’t own the tier 3 light skin beforehand shouldn’t get any form of refund or free skins due to the fact that they chose to purchase the flame kiss skin on their own will and don’t even own the complete set of the normal tier 3 light cultural skin. I understand and completely agree that it was a poor decision to implement a re-skinned armor set that was supposed to be exclusive to the human race in the gemstore, as I mentioned earlier.

Basically, the people who should only be complaining are those who are frustrated about the fact that the t3 skin isn’t exclusive anymore and those who already own the complete set of the tier 3 light human cultural AND have purchased the flame kiss skin. Besides these people, no one else should really be complaining…

Also, I saw a quote from Arena Net somewhere here that goes along the lines of people who didn’t like the new flame kiss would get a refund… My understanding of this quote is that Arena Net is providing refund to those who already purchased the flame kiss skin and disliked it (Correct me if i’m wrong). This got me wondering, why would you deserve a refund for purchasing the flame kiss skin if you got it and disliked it for whatever reason if you didn’t even own the complete set of the normal tier 3 light cultural human skin in the first place. This is like Arena Net allowing a free preview of the new gem store skins, and people could probably just be pretending they didn’t like the skin but in fact they probably got bored of it. Arena Net should only be providing refund to those kind of people I mentioned earlier in the post. Then again probably misunderstood the quote.

Anyway, I hope my post made sense…probably not but oh well. I probably missed a few points out which might cause disagreements and whatnot, so forgive me If I seem to sound ignorant and such, most likely just didn’t think about it so yeah.

In another direction: I read earlier in this mahoosive thread that when the new armor is up on the store again, it will be for a lower gem price. My question is, will the people who bought the armor for 800 gems and like it enough to keep it get reimbursed the gem difference?

Ashen.2907:

angelpaladin.7921:

Once more I am not a lawyer but
I bet the moment you tried taking them to court over 10 dollars they just ban your entire account. Why because at that point they have no interest in keeping you as a customer. They have ZERO obligation to continue to provide you the rental service you currently receive. At the end of the day it still won’t matter because you be out of your account so that 10 dollars would be gone your account would be gone and you have thousand’s of dollars worth of legal fee’s assuming you even got it to a court.

I suppose it depends on whether or not a company can legally take punitive action against an individual for pursuing a good faith legal claim against it. Such is illegal, as in criminally so, in some areas.

I am not certain that something that can be had for a one time fee can be defined as a, “rental.” If you do define GW2 as a rental service then the one time fee covers a period of time defined as the life of the game in its entirety from the point of purchase until the closing of the game. The customer has already paid for next year’s, and the year after, etc (assuming the game lasts that long) rent. A company generally cannot legally continue to charge, or keep prepaid, “rent,” for a service they have chosen to cease to provide.

You are absolutely correct in that it is generally not worth even attempting to go to court over ten dollars. It is also generally not worth alienating a customer who has demonstrated a willingness to spend money on your product… over ten dollars.

I believe that ANet will provide cash refunds for gems purchased for the purpose of acquiring the armor. I hope that they will also refund/replace transmutations stones used. I expect that people who bought dyes, a weapon skin to match, etc will be out of luck.

I think it would be a good idea to throw together some sort of bonus or token of appreciation for those who bought the armor. Not because they have to, or because people will sue, or anything of the sort, but as a sign that they understand and appreciate the inconvenience that a situation such as this can cause for their players. Customer goodwill is a valuable commodity that is all too easily lost.

Look at it this way I lost 18 fractal level’s when the patch hit I didn’t get any compensation for them. I think they look at this as a lesser of two evils deal. They may lose a customer now but they will get 2 more later kinda things.

As far as courts and stuff have you seen any of the apple vs Samsung trials? According to the judge in that case Apple has the patented rights to rounded corners on electronic devices.

angelpaladin.7921:

Ashen.2907:

MisterEction.9382:

They are under no legal obligation to do so.

I am not sure that this is the case.

Consider that at the time some people bought gems specifically to get the armor ANet advertised that the gems could be used to acquire that armor.

If a company removes an advertised utility of a purchased product, gems in this case, then I think one could potentially make a solid legal case for a refund. Not that this would be likely to go to court of course.

Once more I am not a lawyer but
I bet the moment you tried taking them to court over 10 dollars they just ban your entire account. Why because at that point they have no interest in keeping you as a customer. They have ZERO obligation to continue to provide you the rental service you currently receive. At the end of the day it still won’t matter because you be out of your account so that 10 dollars would be gone your account would be gone and you have thousand’s of dollars worth of legal fee’s assuming you even got it to a court.

$10 gets you sent to small claims court where Anet will show up with a lawyer/s, show the judge a copy of the agreed upon EULA with documentation showing they refunded the gems bought with $10, and the whole thing will be over by lunch.

Well, if it isn’t as skimpy as the current flamekissed, it’s a refund for me !

Golgathoth.3967:

In another direction: I read earlier in this mahoosive thread that when the new armor is up on the store again, it will be for a lower gem price. My question is, will the people who bought the armor for 800 gems and like it enough to keep it get reimbursed the gem difference?

Unless it had a red tag next to it don’t believe it.

Substance E.4852:

$10 gets you sent to small claims court where Anet will show up with a lawyer/s, show the judge a copy of the agreed upon EULA with documentation showing they refunded the gems bought with $10, and the whole thing will be over by lunch.

This very much depends on where the case is filed I suppose:

1) Lawyers cannot represent either party in small claims court in some areas where ANet does business.

2) EULA agreement are not binding in some areas in some areas where ANet does business.

3) The gems were advertised as providing a specific function at the time of purchase. ANet advertised that gems could be used to acquire the T3 reskin. ANet removed that functionality from those gems.

Its not open and shut either way.

Seems to me, though the armor was less expensive than the T3 human armor, it’s value is now priceless for those that have it. Optimism, a dish best served at your preferred temperature. (\/)(;,,;)(\/)

frostysnowthug.1046:

Seems to me, though the armor was less expensive than the T3 human armor, it’s value is now priceless for those that have it. Optimism, a dish best served at your preferred temperature. (\/)(;,,;)(\/)

Thank you for sharing that image ! Literally laughed out loud.

Sorrow.5870:

Arena Net could possibly send free flame kiss skins to those who have already owned the full tier 3 light skin beforehand and refund the gems spent on purchasing their flame kiss skin.

So only one specific race owning one specific skin, should get a free skin AND a gem refund. Let me think about that. Nope: Horrible idea.
Humans should not be compensated any different than the other races. Anyone that bought the Flamekissed gets another skin instead.

Sorrow.5870:

On the other hand, those who bought the flame kiss skins but don’t own the tier 3 light skin beforehand shouldn’t get any form of refund or free skins due to the fact that they chose to purchase the flame kiss skin on their own will and don’t even own the complete set of the normal tier 3 light cultural skin.

So only one specific race owning one specific skin should be allowed to have a refund now? (lol)
It is a great crime indeed that others bought a skin (in your words): “on their own will”.
Funny enough, so did the human T3 owners.
It is a great crime that other races and none T3 owners, chose to buy the skin implemented by ArenaNet.
No wait a minut. It is not. And to say that only some people should have a refund…. Only humans with t3… That is the most unfair solution to this mess I have read so far.

Sorrow.5870:

Basically, the people who should only be complaining are those who are frustrated about the fact that the t3 skin isn’t exclusive anymore and those who already own the complete set of the tier 3 light human cultural AND have purchased the flame kiss skin. Besides these people, no one else should really be complaining…

Everyone has a right to voice their concerns. I am sorry if you don’t see, that other races and none T3 owners, might have lost skins and armor due to the Flamekissed as well.

What I am hearing, for the most part, is: “Don’t be mad, guys! Anet is giving refunds! No harm no foul!” and “Stop being so selfish, they should leave the flame kissed armor in game!”

Can we stop picking fights with each other and come up with an idea for a solution? We can all agree that the flame armor release in general was one of the biggest mistakes to date. A reskin, to start it off, is insulting to these players. But in the end that wouldn’t matter. People could just not buy it. But then, one of those reskins was nearly identical to a rare, exclusive armor set at nearly half price. These skins suddenly caused a ripple in the community. The t3 armor just wasn’t worth the exorbitant price when someone could grab a fiery version of it for ten bucks.

BUT—The solution is absolute bull. Just change the skins that we bought… just give us a rare gem only to replace it with crap some time later. (To be more accurate, it is probably better compared to being replaced with a lottery scratcher. It could be something good, but probably not.)

We should be more vocal about wanting unique skins with cool effects and fantastic design then how stupid we feel our fellow players are. All of the thousands of people who have posted or upvoted on these threads were negatively affected. Would not our time be better spent on suggesting a nicer solution for the problem?

For those that think this IS a nice solution, please imagine they changed your armor right after you bought it. Disregard circumstances. At the face value, we are looking at arenanet changing the skins after they have been bought. Sure, we will get a refund, but I, for one, purchased other things to go with this armor. Just a refund won’t at all quell my feelings for the whole situation.

How can the rage be minimized? I know our community can think of the solution.

Arnath.2319:

Stop creating multiple threads on the same topic.

I really hope they start perma banning those spamming the forums about this topic.

Reskinning an old thread with a different title? Nah.. Anet’s cool with that.

Mortalis.4312:

Its not really the same. It is more comprehensive

I’m reading exactly the same thing as the replies of the original thread.

There are 2 kind of solutions

1) in wich BOTH sides lose something (and not just 1 side loses everything that is totally unfair)

2) one in wich nobody lose anything.

I try to suggest something along the 2:

1) bring back flamekissed on TP
2) reskin a cultural HUMAN light
3) give a free SKIN to every T3 owner and put it for sale at the T3 npc
4) delete T3 from cultural NPC

In this way T3 owner can keep an exclusive T3 AND reskin another armor with the new cultural OR overwrite the old T3, ANET has to design only 1 armor for 1 race and doesn t need to refund anyone; flamekissed armor and people who wants to buy it are happy…

Look at some of the the answers i got….
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Flamekiss-cultural-issue/first#post3280332

The issue is not the flamekissed its the toxic community reaching a new low imho….

I actually have not problem with it. I mean how many necros will you see running about with a fire skin.

Despite not going to buy it anyway I feel Anet should have stuck to their guns and kept it in the game

Support has already said they will try to resolve each players concerns. What more do you want? If you don’t like the new set, put in a refund request and any additional information about your “case”, and let them try to work it out. If you don’t like their decision, THEN you can complain about it.

After seeing all the raging about this, I honestly hope they take the skin back from players who purchased it, and give them 800 gems only, nothing more. I did have some sympathy at first, but after reading the comments both here and in support, I have none. The attitude, “I spend money so I should get special treatment” is just obnoxious. Players who spend money in the gem store deserve and get NO more special treatment then a player who has spent nothing.

Take it away, refund the 800 gems, then block them from purchasing the new version since they hate it so much before even seeing what it looks like.

If by some strange fluke an unbelievable situation occurs where they decide to allow players to keep the current version does happen, I will protest and make the biggest stink possible just to make sure they do not get to keep it on principle.

ShiningSquirrel.3751:

After seeing all the raging about this, I honestly hope they take the skin back from players who purchased it, and give them 800 gems only, nothing more. I did have some sympathy at first, but after reading the comments both here and in support,

If by some strange fluke an unbelievable situation occurs where they decide to allow players to keep the current version does happen, I will protest and make the biggest stink possible just to make sure they do not get to keep it on principle.

lets see:
You want people screwed
You threaten to complain if they won t lose stuff.

Anet should totally give credit to this way of thinking….

LordByron.8369:

ShiningSquirrel.3751:

After seeing all the raging about this, I honestly hope they take the skin back from players who purchased it, and give them 800 gems only, nothing more. I did have some sympathy at first, but after reading the comments both here and in support,

If by some strange fluke an unbelievable situation occurs where they decide to allow players to keep the current version does happen, I will protest and make the biggest stink possible just to make sure they do not get to keep it on principle.

lets see:
You want people screwed
You threaten to complain if they won t lose stuff.

Anet should totally give credit to this way of thinking….

Yes
Yes
and yes.

Players being unreasonable deserve to be treated unreasonably.

Why can’t those that paid money for this skin remember something : we all paid money for the game. The game had some features, like a human exclusive T3. They take this feature and destroy it, why is this different than what is happening to you all?

Now, I again say : the right decision was to take that skin from the shop, apologize and NEVER do this again.

BUT! I don’t care if those that bought it keep it. Even more : they SHOULD keep it as a reminder to all players of what could have happened if we let this slip:

- Hey look! Anet is putting all the game skins for sale! Even those of dungeons and the legendaries! And no boundary too! Remember when warriors could not wear robes? What a joke it was! Now we can! Just some money and we get them!
- Ah Cool!
- Right!? Well, let’s go play.
- What for?
- What do you mean?
- Well, right… I bought this game with the incentive of attaining some skins by playing. No need anymore. They are cheaper, easy to obtain and cooler looking on the store.
- Oh.. I see. Well, what about parading in LA?
- Sigh… Ok…

This above was of course an attempt to exagerated humour. Keep that armor. I don’t care about just that one.
You got this sale destroyed. We were going to have our game destroyed. This time the ‘toxic comunity’ got their voices heard. Hope it is not the last time.

ShiningSquirrel.3751:

Support has already said they will try to resolve each players concerns. What more do you want? If you don’t like the new set, put in a refund request and any additional information about your “case”, and let them try to work it out. If you don’t like their decision, THEN you can complain about it.

After seeing all the raging about this, I honestly hope they take the skin back from players who purchased it, and give them 800 gems only, nothing more. I did have some sympathy at first, but after reading the comments both here and in support, I have none. The attitude, “I spend money so I should get special treatment” is just obnoxious. Players who spend money in the gem store deserve and get NO more special treatment then a player who has spent nothing.

Take it away, refund the 800 gems, then block them from purchasing the new version since they hate it so much before even seeing what it looks like.

If by some strange fluke an unbelievable situation occurs where they decide to allow players to keep the current version does happen, I will protest and make the biggest stink possible just to make sure they do not get to keep it on principle.

Good grief, you are worse than the moaners. I am sure anet will follow your suggestions because they enjoy upsetting their customers/ /face palm.

BeoErgon.9107:

Why can’t those that paid money for this skin remember something : we all paid money for the game. The game had some features, like a human exclusive T3. They take this feature and destroy it, why is this different than what is happening to you all?.

why can t you understand:

you lost exclusivity (something non existent) the changed it so
We are losing Gems and gold….(old skin + trasmutation and trust me almost everyone who bougth reskinned a alreasdy skinned armor)

We didn t do anything wrong…

Why the solution should damage us more than the initial damage to you?
Shouldn t be fair a solution in between?

We don t deserve to lose ANYTHING since we did nothing wrong…..

Azarath.7862:

How can the rage be minimized? I know our community can think of the solution.

Unfortunately, there would be only one solution that would satisfy everyone. It’s for the replacement Flamekissed skin to be significantly better than the original one.
Every other option would cause problems. And most of those that are suggested here benefit mostly those that suggest it, with no care about everyone else.

LordByron.8369:

Shouldn t be fair a solution in between?

No, that’s a golden mean fallacy speaking. In this case the “balanced” option is the least fair one, because it satisfies the least number of people.

LordByron.8369:

We don t deserve to lose ANYTHING since we did nothing wrong…..

It’s not about you deserving anything. It’s about what’s best for the game. And in this case Anet messed up so badly, that it cannot be fixed without someone undeserving to get shafted.
It’s just your bad luck that you ended up in that category.

LordByron.8369:

BeoErgon.9107:

Why can’t those that paid money for this skin remember something : we all paid money for the game. The game had some features, like a human exclusive T3. They take this feature and destroy it, why is this different than what is happening to you all?.

why can t you understand:

you lost exclusivity (something non existent) the changed it so
We are losing Gems and gold….(old skin + trasmutation and trust me almost everyone who bougth reskinned a alreasdy skinned armor)

We didn t do anything wrong…

Why the solution should damage us more than the initial damage to you?
Shouldn t be fair a solution in between?

We don t deserve to lose ANYTHING since we did nothing wrong…..

Way to disregard the rest of my post… Sigh… And I said : it is not different!

EDIT : Tell me? Since I already said I wanted you to keep the armor, this is a troll, right?

BeoErgon.9107:

LordByron.8369:

BeoErgon.9107:

Why can’t those that paid money for this skin remember something : we all paid money for the game. The game had some features, like a human exclusive T3. They take this feature and destroy it, why is this different than what is happening to you all?.

why can t you understand:

you lost exclusivity (something non existent) the changed it so
We are losing Gems and gold….(old skin + trasmutation and trust me almost everyone who bougth reskinned a alreasdy skinned armor)

We didn t do anything wrong…

Why the solution should damage us more than the initial damage to you?
Shouldn t be fair a solution in between?

We don t deserve to lose ANYTHING since we did nothing wrong…..

Way to disregard the rest of my post… Sigh… And I said : it is not different!

Yeah if you would be in my place you would be even more mad….

In this patch i m losing 1 year fractal progression, 16 trasmutation Crystal and 1 skinset…….

you may understand i believe…..

LordByron.8369:

BeoErgon.9107:

LordByron.8369:

BeoErgon.9107:

Why can’t those that paid money for this skin remember something : we all paid money for the game. The game had some features, like a human exclusive T3. They take this feature and destroy it, why is this different than what is happening to you all?.

why can t you understand:

you lost exclusivity (something non existent) the changed it so
We are losing Gems and gold….(old skin + trasmutation and trust me almost everyone who bougth reskinned a alreasdy skinned armor)

We didn t do anything wrong…

Why the solution should damage us more than the initial damage to you?
Shouldn t be fair a solution in between?

We don t deserve to lose ANYTHING since we did nothing wrong…..

Way to disregard the rest of my post… Sigh… And I said : it is not different!

Yeah if you would be in my place you would be even more mad….

In this patch i m losing 1 year fractal progression, 16 trasmutation Crystal and 1 skinset…….

you may understand i believe…..

I can understand.

Those that complain about loosing something they paid for, I understand and I feel for them to the point of not caring if they keep the armor.
Those that come here moaning and hating the first ‘moaners’ like me, no, I can’t understand.

You had the fractals levels as your game progression. I had the ingame skins as my own progression. You see? The same…
They were breaking the game for us. We complained.

Gkitten24:

ShiningSquirrel.3751:

Support has already said they will try to resolve each players concerns. What more do you want? If you don’t like the new set, put in a refund request and any additional information about your “case”, and let them try to work it out. If you don’t like their decision, THEN you can complain about it.

After seeing all the raging about this, I honestly hope they take the skin back from players who purchased it, and give them 800 gems only, nothing more. I did have some sympathy at first, but after reading the comments both here and in support, I have none. The attitude, “I spend money so I should get special treatment” is just obnoxious. Players who spend money in the gem store deserve and get NO more special treatment then a player who has spent nothing.

Take it away, refund the 800 gems, then block them from purchasing the new version since they hate it so much before even seeing what it looks like.

If by some strange fluke an unbelievable situation occurs where they decide to allow players to keep the current version does happen, I will protest and make the biggest stink possible just to make sure they do not get to keep it on principle.

Good grief, you are worse than the moaners. I am sure anet will follow your suggestions because they enjoy upsetting their customers/ /face palm.

Well anet has said they will try to address each persons concerns about refunds, but that is not good enough for some, so what WOULD be good enough? The complainers want what they want and to heck with anyone or anything else and refuse to listen to a very reasonable request to just give the devs a little time. People like that deserve nothing and no consideration.

LordByron.8369:

BeoErgon.9107:

Why can’t those that paid money for this skin remember something : we all paid money for the game. The game had some features, like a human exclusive T3. They take this feature and destroy it, why is this different than what is happening to you all?.

why can t you understand:

you lost exclusivity (something non existent) the changed it so
We are losing Gems and gold….(old skin + trasmutation and trust me almost everyone who bougth reskinned a alreasdy skinned armor)

We didn t do anything wrong…

Why the solution should damage us more than the initial damage to you?
Shouldn t be fair a solution in between?

We don t deserve to lose ANYTHING since we did nothing wrong…..

And who said you are going to lose a thing EXECPT the look of the skin?
Where is it posted? Where is this mythical post by the devs that says this?
Your jumping to conclusions and making a huge fuss before even knowing what the devs are planning to do.

ShiningSquirrel.3751:

LordByron.8369:

BeoErgon.9107:

Why can’t those that paid money for this skin remember something : we all paid money for the game. The game had some features, like a human exclusive T3. They take this feature and destroy it, why is this different than what is happening to you all?.

why can t you understand:

you lost exclusivity (something non existent) the changed it so
We are losing Gems and gold….(old skin + trasmutation and trust me almost everyone who bougth reskinned a alreasdy skinned armor)

We didn t do anything wrong…

Why the solution should damage us more than the initial damage to you?
Shouldn t be fair a solution in between?

We don t deserve to lose ANYTHING since we did nothing wrong…..

And who said you are going to lose a thing EXECPT the look of the skin?
Where is it posted? Where is this mythical post by the devs that says this?
Your jumping to conclusions and making a huge fuss before even knowing what the devs are planning to do.

Anet is yet to post anything concrete on what will happen in the event of us not liking the “new” skin and wanting a refund. All that has been apparently said (earlier in this thread, someone mentioned this from support) is that people who transmuted over Human T3 will have to REBUY the piece of T3 to get their old skin back. Whether you take that as true, or as potentially falsified (wouldn’t surprise me either way) is up to you. But it’s enough to make people concerned.

LordByron.8369:

Yeah if you would be in my place you would be even more mad….

In this patch i m losing 1 year fractal progression, 16 trasmutation Crystal and 1 skinset…….

you may understand i believe…..

how are you losing 16 transmutation crystals?

BeoErgon.9107:

LordByron.8369:

BeoErgon.9107:

LordByron.8369:

BeoErgon.9107:

Why can’t those that paid money for this skin remember something : we all paid money for the game. The game had some features, like a human exclusive T3. They take this feature and destroy it, why is this different than what is happening to you all?.

why can t you understand:

you lost exclusivity (something non existent) the changed it so
We are losing Gems and gold….(old skin + trasmutation and trust me almost everyone who bougth reskinned a alreasdy skinned armor)

We didn t do anything wrong…

Why the solution should damage us more than the initial damage to you?
Shouldn t be fair a solution in between?

We don t deserve to lose ANYTHING since we did nothing wrong…..

Way to disregard the rest of my post… Sigh… And I said : it is not different!

Yeah if you would be in my place you would be even more mad….

In this patch i m losing 1 year fractal progression, 16 trasmutation Crystal and 1 skinset…….

you may understand i believe…..

I can understand.

Those that complain about loosing something they paid for, I understand and I feel for them to the point of not caring if they keep the armor.
Those that come here moaning and hating the first ‘moaners’ like me, no, I can’t understand.

You had the fractals levels as your game progression. I had the ingame skins as my own progression. You see? The same…
They were breaking the game for us. We complained.

The best part is i m losing both…..
You are losing none….

How is that fair?

@protoavis
New fotm are skins ….
I lose the 10 i used on weapons
I lose the 6 from the reskinning my celestial armor
I lose the old skin
I lose 50 useless fotm weapons without stats
I lose my frctal levels on all my alts

All in a single patch….

A word about digital sales, for everyone claiming Arena Net has legal obligations because “reasons.”

You don’t rent the game from Arena Net. You don’t OWN the game after you buy the game from Arena Net. Arena Net is not selling you Guild Wars 2.

Arena Net sells you a license to use Guild Wars 2.

This is how most software sales work. Take Windows, for example. When you purchase a PC with Windows installed or buy a copy of Windows to install on a computer, you don’t own that copy of Windows. You own a license to use Windows. There are two types of licenses: Per Device and Per User. Windows tends to be Per Device; IE you can use a copy of Windows only on one Device. If you replace that Device, you can no longer use your copy of Windows on the new one, you have to buy a new copy.

A.Net’s GW2 license is Per User. Meaning you can install their game client on as may Devices as you wish, but they can only ever be used by one Person.

All of this is written in legalese in the Guild Wars 2 user agreement that every GW2 user has to agree to in order to download and install the game:
License Grant — Any Service, Content or Software supplied by NCSOFT is licensed, not sold, by NCSOFT. All title and rights not expressly granted in this agreement, including but not limited to any IP right and the display thereof, are retained by NCSOFT and/or third-parties under agreement with NCSOFT. NCSOFT hereby grants You a revocable, non-exclusive, license for personal and non-commercial use of Service, Content and Software that is non-transferable…

Guild Wars 2’s Terms of Service clearly defines it as a service. You purchase a license to access that service. The same TOS also states that Arena Net has sole discretion to modify their service at any time.

SERVICE AND AVAILABILITY You acknowledge that NCSOFT may in its sole and absolute discretion provide subsequent versions, enhancements, modifications, upgrades or patches related to any part of the Service.

The TOS also states (and Gaile has explained this many times):
YOU ALSO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT NCSOFT HAS NO OBLIGATION TO REFUND ANY PAYMENTS, IN WHOLE OR IN PART, RELATED TO AN ACCOUNT WHETHER OR NOT SUCH PAYMENTS WERE MADE OR AUTHORIZED BY YOU, FOR ANY REASON WHATSOEVER, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO INTERRUPTION OR UNAVAILABILITY OF SERVICE (SEE ALSO SECTION 10). YOU ACKNOWLEDGE, AND FURTHER AGREE, THAT NCSOFT MAY, IN ITS SOLE AND ABSOLUTE DISCRETION, TERMINATE UNDER THE PROVISIONS OF SECTION 3© ANY ACCOUNT RELATED TO ANY ATTEMPT TO OBTAIN A REFUND OF ANY PAYMENTS, WHETHER SUCH ATTEMPTS ARE MADE BY CONTACTING AN ISSUER OF CREDIT CARDS OR OTHERWISE

I understand people are upset. They spent money on something. That something is now going to disappear and they feel cheated. But there’s no point in having a legal debate over what Arena Net is obligated to do or not do. Terms of Service exist for situations just such as this one. There is no legal basis here by which Arena Net could be taken to court. The fact that they are willing to refund gems when a quick skim of their terms of service, which you had to agree to in order to play the game, clearly states they’re under no obligation to provide such should be proof that they value their customers enough to make up for their mistakes.

Demanding everything and the kitchen sink is going to get you nowhere. Gaile has clearly stated that the customer service team will address individual questions at such time as it becomes relevant. Until the new skin is released, no action is going to be taken.

And flooding Gaile’s inbox when she’s made that clear is only going to prevent people with other, more urgent issues from getting help in a timely manner.

Edited to add:
Gaile’s statements about how customer service will be handled:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/account/Flamekissed/first#post3276620
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/account/Flamekissed/first#post3276756

Regina’s original post stating you will be refunded (there is no evidence that there will be any kind of discount on the new skin for those claiming they saw it):
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Merged-Cultural-Human-T3-Not-Exclusive/page/12#post3275237

The legal thread about Flamekiss is another..as said many times TOS has no legal value in most countries….

You are totally off topic here

LordByron.8369:

The legal thread about Flamekiss is another..as said many times TOS has no legal value in most countries….

You are totally off topic here

That’s hilarious. If the TOS had no legal value, the game wouldn’t be for sale in that country.

LordByron.8369:

BeoErgon.9107:

LordByron.8369:

BeoErgon.9107:

LordByron.8369:

BeoErgon.9107:

Why can’t those that paid money for this skin remember something : we all paid money for the game. The game had some features, like a human exclusive T3. They take this feature and destroy it, why is this different than what is happening to you all?.

why can t you understand:

you lost exclusivity (something non existent) the changed it so
We are losing Gems and gold….(old skin + trasmutation and trust me almost everyone who bougth reskinned a alreasdy skinned armor)

We didn t do anything wrong…

Why the solution should damage us more than the initial damage to you?
Shouldn t be fair a solution in between?

We don t deserve to lose ANYTHING since we did nothing wrong…..

Way to disregard the rest of my post… Sigh… And I said : it is not different!

Yeah if you would be in my place you would be even more mad….

In this patch i m losing 1 year fractal progression, 16 trasmutation Crystal and 1 skinset…….

you may understand i believe…..

I can understand.

Those that complain about loosing something they paid for, I understand and I feel for them to the point of not caring if they keep the armor.
Those that come here moaning and hating the first ‘moaners’ like me, no, I can’t understand.

You had the fractals levels as your game progression. I had the ingame skins as my own progression. You see? The same…
They were breaking the game for us. We complained.

The best part is i m losing both…..
You are losing none….

Maybe it is because I am not an English person and I don’t explain myself clear enough.

Removing that skin is not fair for those that bought it. It is not. No. Really not. Never once I said it was.

BUT!

What I can’t understand is that on one hand you complain they somehow broke your game by reseting the fractal levels and on the other hand you seem not to be able to understand why we complain about Anet breaking another part of the game for us. Soon you will start sounding really selfish.

This armor should never have existed. Period.

Now that everyone understood this and Anet removed it from store I am pleased myself. It’s enough for me without needing to go any further. Keep it.

Still, don’t come here hating those that tried to protect their game. You that lost Fractal progression should understand this more than others.

StarbornStriker.6493:

LordByron.8369:

The legal thread about Flamekiss is another..as said many times TOS has no legal value in most countries….

You are totally off topic here

That’s hilarious. If the TOS had no legal value, the game wouldn’t be for sale in that country.

Will play the evil advocate here…
The TOS could perfectly have been used against us that wanted this armor removed.
Anet owned the game and if they decided they wanted that armor on sale, there was nothing we could say.
But we complained and they listened.

It’s their game, but without customers it is an useless game.

BeoErgon.9107:

StarbornStriker.6493:

LordByron.8369:

The legal thread about Flamekiss is another..as said many times TOS has no legal value in most countries….

You are totally off topic here

That’s hilarious. If the TOS had no legal value, the game wouldn’t be for sale in that country.

Will play the evil advocate here…
The TOS could perfectly have been used against us that wanted this armor removed.
Anet owned the game and if they decided they wanted that armor out, there was nothing we could say.
But we complained and they listened.

It’s their game, but without customers it is an useless game.

The main point of my post wasn’t really to argue for or against the removal of the armor (I have an opinion, but I’m not going to state that opinion. Because I wasn’t affected by this in any way, so it’s really not my place to comment).

I did, however, notice a lot of argument over how sale of the game is defined. People who want their money back have strong feelings about what is due them after the purchase of a game or gems. But the fact of the matter is, there already exists a legal definition of the relationship between customer and company in terms of game sale. Like it or lump it, arguing about it won’t change it.

Mainly I want to see factual information perpetuated so that people who are upset have the best chance of getting a fair resolution. Angrily making baseless demands is likely to upset the support team, and then they’re unlikely to be generous. Making a reasoned, logical argument based on the available information means the people who are upset are more likely to get a resolution they deem is fair when the time comes.

Unfortunately, that time is not now.

StarbornStriker.6493:

Mainly I want to see factual information perpetuated so that people who are upset have the best chance of getting a fair resolution. Angrily making baseless demands is likely to upset the support team, and then they’re unlikely to be generous. Making a reasoned, logical argument based on the available information means the people who are upset are more likely to get a resolution they deem is fair when the time comes.

Unfortunately, that time is not now.

I see…
But TOS or not, I feel they have the right to complain to Anet just as we did.
And reread the first pages of posts…. there was a lot of hate there too (I followed htis topic close and I saw a fair amount of incorrect posts disappear)

Me, I would just like them stop being angry at the initial players that wanted to protect the game from an enormous mistake.

I would recomend though, as said before, that they wait and see what Anet will come up with before venting all their anger. (I personaly feel that if they come out with any other pair of bra and panties on fire that look nice the complaints will go down, but this is just my feeling)

But they have the right to be angry, anyone would.
If we had not been angry in the first place this armor would still be there for sale.
This does not mean being rude is ok tough…

Nice, this is a very good decision!

StarbornStriker.6493:

YOU ALSO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT NCSOFT HAS NO OBLIGATION TO REFUND ANY PAYMENTS, IN WHOLE OR IN PART, RELATED TO AN ACCOUNT WHETHER OR NOT SUCH PAYMENTS WERE MADE OR AUTHORIZED BY YOU, FOR ANY REASON WHATSOEVER, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO INTERRUPTION OR UNAVAILABILITY OF SERVICE (SEE ALSO SECTION 10). YOU ACKNOWLEDGE, AND FURTHER AGREE, THAT NCSOFT MAY, IN ITS SOLE AND ABSOLUTE DISCRETION, TERMINATE UNDER THE PROVISIONS OF SECTION 3© ANY ACCOUNT RELATED TO ANY ATTEMPT TO OBTAIN A REFUND OF ANY PAYMENTS, WHETHER SUCH ATTEMPTS ARE MADE BY CONTACTING AN ISSUER OF CREDIT CARDS OR OTHERWISE

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/apr/30/business/la-fi-lazarus-20100430

The creator of Second Life, a San Francisco company called Linden Lab, is being sued in federal court by some of the virtual world’s “residents,” who claim that their property rights have been taken from them.

The lawsuit, which was filed this month in Pittsburgh and seeks class-action status, could have broad ramifications for similar online worlds that offer users open-ended adventures in cyberspace. Its backers see it as a first step toward defining actual rights in virtual places.

The lawsuit alleges that Linden Lab induced up to 50,000 Second Life users to spend as much as $100 million — again, in real money — buying and developing virtual property, and maintaining that property through monthly fees that the company likened to property taxes.

But, it says, Linden quietly changed its contract terms to remove the concept of ownership and has confiscated the property of some users without compensation. The lawsuit seeks more than $5 million in damages for what it says was fraud and violations of California consumer protection laws.

Also see: Bragg v. Linden Research, Inc., 487 F. Supp. 2d 593 (E.D.Penn. 2007)

Bragg v. Linden Research, Inc., 487 F. Supp. 2d 593 (E.D.Penn. 2007), was a civil action (No. 06-4925) removed to the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania in October 2006. An online virtual world service provider (Linden Lab) terminated the account of a user (Marc Bragg) when it discovered that he had found a way to acquire virtual land at a lower-than-market price. The user brought this suit, which was ultimately settled before a final decision was reached. However, the District Court did decide on two issues which may be important in future virtual world litigation: that the Second Life Terms of Service’s mandatory arbitration provision was unenforceable; and that interaction with a person in a virtual world can satisfy a state’s “minimum contacts” requirement for personal jurisdiction.

To the Devs, I highly recommend that you get in touch with your legal team before you revoke the skin from any of your existing users.

Best to let your lawyers know what you’re doing before you start revoking virtual property rights.

MrSilver.5269:

Snip…

Never that easy to compare things to other cases…

Anyways remember one thing : People bought GEMS with real money.
you can argue as much as you want that you bought the gems for this armor and this armor alone you can never prove it.
If Anet just returns your gems or the money you used on them I fairly believe that legally you will never be able to do anything. In the cases above there was no compensation. Here there will be : your gems (or your money?) will be returned. I fairly believe that they will try to handle this with tact (I hope)

Threatening to go to court for this seems so exagerated for me….

LordByron.8369:

There are 2 kind of solutions

1) in wich BOTH sides lose something (and not just 1 side loses everything that is totally unfair)

2) one in wich nobody lose anything.

I try to suggest something along the 2:

1) bring back flamekissed on TP
2) reskin a cultural HUMAN light
3) give a free SKIN to every T3 owner and put it for sale at the T3 npc
4) delete T3 from cultural NPC

In this way T3 owner can keep an exclusive T3 AND reskin another armor with the new cultural OR overwrite the old T3, ANET has to design only 1 armor for 1 race and doesn t need to refund anyone; flamekissed armor and people who wants to buy it are happy…

Look at some of the the answers i got….
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Flamekiss-cultural-issue/first#post3280332

The issue is not the flamekissed its the toxic community reaching a new low imho….

This wouldnt solve anything, since we would be changing the T3 armor. Sure, they would keep their “uniqueness”, but what if they dont like the new skin? Complains would just change from people who bough the Flamekiss skin to people who bought T3 armor.

This is just getting sad now. Just move on already, they will refund you what you spend and I’m sure they would even give you your money back if you took it that far.
And what MrSilver posted is nothing like this case and what Anet did is totally legal.

Regina Buenaobra.6193:

Hey, everyone. We’ve been reading all your feedback about the Flamekissed Armor Skin that was released into the Gem Store yesterday.

Although the Flamekissed Armor uses the same mesh as the Tier 3 Human Cultural Armor, it was not our intention to create an armor skin that so closely matched the existing Tier 3 Human Cultural armor set. The intention was to use the mesh as a basis for creating an armor set that stands apart and is distinct in appearance. However, after reading your feedback, we agree that the Flamekissed armor is not visually distinct enough from Human Cultural Tier 3 armor.

We will do a few things to address this issue.

• We will temporarily remove Flamekissed Armor Skin from the Gem Store.
• Players who have purchased Flamekissed Armor Skin will keep the skin.
• We will make new art for the Flamekissed Armor Skin that achieves our goal of making a visually distinct and attractive armor set and does not closely resemble the Human Tier 3 Cultural armor.
• Once this new artwork is completed, we will then update the Flamekissed Armor Skin so that all existing sets that players have purchased get the new art. We will also offer the Flamekissed Armor Skin for sale again at that time.
• When we update the Flamekissed Armor Skins with the new artwork, any player that has already purchased the set and who does not like the new, updated look, can get a full refund by contacting Customer Support.

Note that there is no ETA on when this change will happen. We need to work with the Character Art Team to determine when we can have a new armor skin ready, and this could take some time.

Thank you everyone for providing your feedback. We appreciate that you took the time to let us know how you feel about the new armor set.

What the kitten is mesh? I can tell you loud and clear: you took the EXACT SAME ARMOR and put some fire effect on it. It’s that simple. GZ.

caiomacos.1694:

LordByron.8369:

There are 2 kind of solutions

1) in wich BOTH sides lose something (and not just 1 side loses everything that is totally unfair)

2) one in wich nobody lose anything.

I try to suggest something along the 2:

1) bring back flamekissed on TP
2) reskin a cultural HUMAN light
3) give a free SKIN to every T3 owner and put it for sale at the T3 npc
4) delete T3 from cultural NPC

In this way T3 owner can keep an exclusive T3 AND reskin another armor with the new cultural OR overwrite the old T3, ANET has to design only 1 armor for 1 race and doesn t need to refund anyone; flamekissed armor and people who wants to buy it are happy…

Look at some of the the answers i got….
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Flamekiss-cultural-issue/first#post3280332

The issue is not the flamekissed its the toxic community reaching a new low imho….

This wouldnt solve anything, since we would be changing the T3 armor. Sure, they would keep their “uniqueness”, but what if they dont like the new skin? Complains would just change from people who bough the Flamekiss skin to people who bought T3 armor.

If you don t like the new free skin you have your old T3…..AND a skinset that compared to players who did nothing wrong to lose the previous armor they had for 800 gems is way more fair…

We instead would not be able to get refunded and have our previous skin back….not to mention what it measn to stay months with an armor that you don t know if will be changed or not….

How about they just give 800 gems to those who purchased the original skin regardless of whether they’ll like the new skin or not since it isn’t the skin they really bought? Would that make you happy?

If I was able to get my old t3 human skin that I overwrote. Yes.

MrSilver.5269:

But, it says, Linden quietly changed its contract terms to remove the concept of ownership and has confiscated the property of some users without compensation. The lawsuit seeks more than $5 million in damages for what it says was fraud and violations of California consumer protection laws.

This would be the legal issue. IE the company changed its existing TOS without notifying the population they had done so. You’ll notice whenever a company (say Facebook) changes their TOS, they have to notify you and you have to click on something which says you accept the new terms of the agreement. If you don’t accept the new terms, of course, your account terminates.

If this company quietly updated their TOS to remove the rights their players previously had and did not notify them, thereby allowing them to agree to the new terms of service, then yes, they did something illegal. The new terms wouldn’t be sustainable because the users wouldn’t have agreed to their half of the contract.

Arena net has not done that. They removed an item from their gem store. That’s vastly different from removing terms from their legal documentation without notification.

I don’t really understand why people act like such victims when it comes to losing both the t3 copy and the original t3, that they transmuted onto exotic gear. why would you for any cheap-gemstore skin want to override your expensive unique t3 in the first place? you were obviously ready to lose the original t3 skin and you must not have cared THAT much for it, if you so easily transmute something on to it. I still think the original looks better than this copy. it dyes much better, the new one is horrible at that. and the flames look quite bad. like orange steam. The ones on the gloves dont at all fit the rest of the armor. pretty bad. they could have made much better particle effects than that. imo. and why on earth would other races than humans even consider transmuting this gem store skin to their cultural??? why? its beyond me. and humans too, you could have transmuted it on a new exotic and have both skins. just too stupid. both of them are bought only for their skin and not stats.

Beckie.3580:

I don’t really understand why people act like such victims when it comes to losing both the t3 copy and the original t3, that they transmuted onto exotic gear. why would you for any cheap-gemstore skin want to override your expensive unique t3 in the first place? you were obviously ready to lose the original t3 skin and you must not have cared THAT much for it, if you so easily transmute something on to it. I still think the original looks better than this copy. it dyes much better, the new one is horrible at that. and the flames look quite bad. like orange steam. The ones on the gloves dont at all fit the rest of the armor. pretty bad. they could have made much better particle effects than that. imo. and why on earth would other races than humans even consider transmuting this gem store skin to their cultural??? why? its beyond me. and humans too, you could have transmuted it on a new exotic and have both skins. just too stupid. both of them are bought only for their skin and not stats.

It’s their choice, whatever their reason may be. Not everyone shares your taste. How is that so hard to understand? Just because they think differently than you doesn’t mean they’re stupid.