Guild Wars 2

The only thing that Gw2 did right is showing the world that majority of MMO players are baddies. And they need their trinity because they can’t take care for themselves.

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Also, how is trinity disappearing, when MOBA games, which have overtaken MMOs at a frightening speed, are entirely based on the trinity system? League of Legends, DotA, Smite, HotS, all of these are based purely on the trinity system and they’re in much faster growth than any MMO.

GW2 is just a “back to the origins” MMO, a final breath of a disappearing game genre.

Maybe, just maybe, we should be focusing on tPvP if we are going to compare GW2 and MOBAs.

Vargamonth.2047:

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Also, how is trinity disappearing, when MOBA games, which have overtaken MMOs at a frightening speed, are entirely based on the trinity system? League of Legends, DotA, Smite, HotS, all of these are based purely on the trinity system and they’re in much faster growth than any MMO.

GW2 is just a “back to the origins” MMO, a final breath of a disappearing game genre.

Maybe, just maybe, we should be focusing on tPvP if we are going to compare GW2 and MOBAs.

Lets not forget that MMORPGs have never been a huge thing to begin with.
This is what MOBAs are showing btw. People need quick games to get their fun fix. Most people don’t like grinding for months, against heavy RNG, to achieve something. Thus, MOBAs, with their tops 60 minute games is all these people need. They provide the same thrill, same risk/reward and in some cases they even require better hand/controller (keyboard/mouse) action than most of MMORPGs.

Thank the Lord we have Gw2 otherwise everything would’ve been global cooldown WoW clones.

Valky.2574:

When ever some one tells me how to play my class i just remember this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g---BzLfN2w

and then ignore them

Sure – but what happens if you join a party despite their wishes ? What happens when people don’t want your “rolled this way” character.

Kicks. Kicks happen.

Dawnbreaker.6215:

I don’t care if removing the zerk meta will only give place to a new 1 gear meta. I only want to see the zerk meta gone because the zerk crowd is the most irritating, obnoxious crowd there is.

I know that the zerk tryhards would eventually adapt to whatever new meta there is, but it would be very funny to see the most stubborn of them have a taste of their own medecine for the first few weeks of the new meta.

Many people in this game need to learn respect.

Funny – it’s the tryhards that will be the first to respect and kick those who aren’t meta.
There’s a reason they’re called tryhards.

You think the casuals or “playhowiwants” are the ones who are going to find out what the new meta is and then get the appropriate gear and runes and trait builds?

Not likely.

Harper.4173:

Funny – it’s the tryhards that will be the first to respect and kick those who aren’t meta.
There’s a reason they’re called tryhards.

You think the casuals or “playhowiwants” are the ones who are going to find out what the new meta is and then get the appropriate gear and runes and trait builds?

Not likely.

And whats funny, the whining will start all kittening over again. All over. And we will be in the same kittening place. Woopty doo!

Dawnbreaker.6215:

maha.7902:

Dawnbreaker.6215:

I don’t care if removing the zerk meta will only give place to a new 1 gear meta. I only want to see the zerk meta gone because the zerk crowd is the most irritating, obnoxious crowd there is.

I know that the zerk tryhards would eventually adapt to whatever new meta there is, but it would be very funny to see the most stubborn of them have a taste of their own medecine for the first few weeks of the new meta.

Many people in this game need to learn respect.

the “zerk crowd” is the most “irritating, obnoxious crowd”?

how about those people shoving trinity posts on these boards every single day down our throats constantly demonstrating their complete lack of understanding of how this game works, spewing nonsense like “support and CC don’t matter in this game” when their claims are entirely inaccurate? how about how those same people have sat here with this game for three years and not thought for one second maybe they should play something else if they want a trinity?

both sides need to learn respect, but don’t even pretend that the “casual” (inverted commas since I can’t think of a better word to describe less dedicated players who want ANet to mold the game in the way they want) crowd is immaculate here, in fact they’re the ones constantly drawing the ire of the “zerk crowd” in these heated threads every single day.

Do you understand though, that GW2 is not an improved version of trinity, but rather a step back? Trinity is the fix for this situation. Trinity was invented in order to prevent the scenario you see in GW2.

GW2 is actually taking a step back when chosing this gameplay. It’s as if car producers suddenly decided to start building cars without seatbelts.

Mate – the “step back” thing is your own point of view. It might be a step back for you.
It is not a step back for me and most player here. If it is such a step back then I suggest maybe finding a game that took a step forward. How about that?

Just because we want to play our broken game doesn’t mean you have to come here and tell us what needs fixing and what doesn’t. It might be hard for you to understand but we actually like the game this way.

It doesn’t matter why the trinity was invented – there are people out there who like the scenario that we have here in GW2 and this game is aimed at them and caters to them.
I know it’s hard to understand but not everyone likes what you like. Even if you like something that most MMO players like there are atypical MMO players who dislike the trinity.

Aiming at this players GW2 was designed – with this demographic in mind it was created as a trinity-free system – even if you consider it a poor system that doesn’t mean that players enjoy it and that it should be changed.

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Ashen.2907:

Dawnbreaker.6215:

maha.7902:

Dawnbreaker.6215:

I don’t care if removing the zerk meta will only give place to a new 1 gear meta. I only want to see the zerk meta gone because the zerk crowd is the most irritating, obnoxious crowd there is.

I know that the zerk tryhards would eventually adapt to whatever new meta there is, but it would be very funny to see the most stubborn of them have a taste of their own medecine for the first few weeks of the new meta.

Many people in this game need to learn respect.

the “zerk crowd” is the most “irritating, obnoxious crowd”?

how about those people shoving trinity posts on these boards every single day down our throats constantly demonstrating their complete lack of understanding of how this game works, spewing nonsense like “support and CC don’t matter in this game” when their claims are entirely inaccurate? how about how those same people have sat here with this game for three years and not thought for one second maybe they should play something else if they want a trinity?

both sides need to learn respect, but don’t even pretend that the “casual” (inverted commas since I can’t think of a better word to describe less dedicated players who want ANet to mold the game in the way they want) crowd is immaculate here, in fact they’re the ones constantly drawing the ire of the “zerk crowd” in these heated threads every single day.

Do you understand though, that GW2 is not an improved version of trinity, but rather a step back? Trinity is the fix for this situation. Trinity was invented in order to prevent the scenario you see in GW2.

GW2 is actually taking a step back when chosing this gameplay. It’s as if car producers suddenly decided to start building cars without seatbelts.

I disagree. GW2 solves the problem that is the nonsensical (or outright idiotic) concept of trinity play.

The cool thing is that there are many trinity games available for those who prefer such.

Care to elaborate on how trinity is nonsensical and idiotic?

Also, how is trinity disappearing, when MOBA games, which have overtaken MMOs at a frightening speed, are entirely based on the trinity system? League of Legends, DotA, Smite, HotS, all of these are based purely on the trinity system and they’re in much faster growth than any MMO.

GW2 is just a “back to the origins” MMO, a final breath of a disappearing game genre.

Really? DotA is a trinity game now? Wow.

If that’s how well you understand DotA please find a way to be on the opposite team every time. I would love opponents that demonstrate such unique understanding of the game.

Also the trinity is nonsensical to me and others because it forces you to pay for other people’s lack of skill or ability.
By tying you together in a locked system of interdependence in which you cannot perform without others performing you are stuck and your success or failure is determined by the worst player in your 3-man trinity.

Since each of you does a role – if one does badly the other two cannot complete regardless of their performance.

In GW2 – where you have to perform each role yourself you’re not tied to the person next to you – his failure doesn’t necessarily mean the group’s failure. Nor can his inability to do his job impact you in a very significant way. Most of the cases he’ll die and you can carry on.

I understand this type of gameplay is not for everybody. Not everyone likes this independence and most trinity-loving people feel they’ve lost their identity and usefulness when they lack a simple role to fulfill but GW2 is not aimed at the classic trinity player base.

Why try to compete with WoW for players when you can carve out a niche for yourself – a niche that very few other games do – do that niche well and have a lot of sales by getting people who hate the trinity to play your game.

It’s a smart move – look at how many MMOs have tried to emulate WoW – some with fantastically unique and immersive lore ( Warhammer Online) only to fail.

Why make the same thing and fight over the same crowd of people when you can sell to a completely different crowd – the crowd that came and preordered GW2 because they knew it would be a no-trinity game.

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Garth Thurgen.1380:

Bla bla bla

Refusing to admit the problem exists doesn’t make it disappear, though.

I mean look, I have the understanding of these things. I was diamond in SC2, been in MMOs for a very long time, also play MOBAs. I can tell you son, I understand the problems. This discussion is for you, not for me.

Whoa – step back guys Diamon in SC2 over here. Well so was I – it doesn’t prove anything. I play MOBAs too – play FPS games too. I’ve played pretty much everything and anything.

That doesn’t make you right.

No matter what your understanding of games is – you fail to understand one simple thing : there are players out there who HATE the trinity and want a game without it – Anet has created a game to cater to these players and thus GW2 caters to this demographic – changing the system to a trinity system in this case is not something anyone sane would do.

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Do you understand though, that GW2 is not an improved version of trinity, but rather a step back? Trinity is the fix for this situation. Trinity was invented in order to prevent the scenario you see in GW2.

GW2 is actually taking a step back when chosing this gameplay. It’s as if car producers suddenly decided to start building cars without seatbelts.

I disagree. GW2 solves the problem that is the nonsensical (or outright idiotic) concept of trinity play.

The cool thing is that there are many trinity games available for those who prefer such.[/quote]

Care to elaborate on how trinity is nonsensical and idiotic?

Also, how is trinity disappearing, when MOBA games, which have overtaken MMOs at a frightening speed, are entirely based on the trinity system? League of Legends, DotA, Smite, HotS, all of these are based purely on the trinity system and they’re in much faster growth than any MMO.

GW2 is just a “back to the origins” MMO, a final breath of a disappearing game genre.[/quote]

Find the part where it has only three roles, or even mentions “healer” or “tank”: http://www.nerfplz.com/2015/02/2015-champion-tier-list-ranked-3s.html

Similarly, not all MMOs have a trinity since well before GW2.[/quote]
[gaming lesson]
Trinity is a broad term for “class interdependence”. In the case of WoW, there aren’t only 3 roles either, since there are well more classes than that, but they can be classed into three major categories, which is why people refer to it as a trinity.

Damage: Nukers (AoE magical), assassins (single target), Fighters (melee DPS), Off-tanks (hybrids), poison stackers (DoT classes), and so on.
Defence: Tanks (high HP CC), Bruisers (high HP with damage), Paladins (high HP healers), etc.
Support: Clerics (full healing class), Buffers (buff-oriented classes), scouts, CC supportive classes, and so on.

These are just some very rough examples of builds/classes games generall have. The presence of trinity is detected by the fact a team can’t run properly without at least two or three of these roles. You can’t go into a dungeon with nukers only in WoW, you’ll die instantly. You generally won’t do well in LoL with a full assassin team, you will get destroyed by CC in team fights.

GW2 just decided to remove all of this team strategy that had evolved for years in games in an attempt to look “original”. Just because something is original, it doesn’t make it better.

[/gaming lesson]

The lack of a trinity doesn’t make the party system better. You have had 3 years to make your point about your system working. In 3 years, you have ONLY managed to produce one PvE gear meta. In 3 years, the forums and community are constantly argueing about the zerk meta problem, which is kitten in this game. I think that you have had plenty enough time to prove your point, and failed to do so. It would be healthy of you to admit being wrong, but hey, that’s just friendly advice for yourself. I don’t need you to admit anything to me, I already know you are wrong.[/quote]

No – in three years a meta has emerged – GW1 had a trinity system and it still had a skill and gear meta.
It also had a class meta.

In 3 years the same few people who don’t understand that this is not the game they want it to be keep making threads over and over again without realizing it doesn’t and won’t change anything because they’re a minority.

The point that GW2 works is proven by its financial success – if people didn’t like GW2 and if it was broken ( the way you claim) people would have bought it, wouldn’t buy it still and wouldn’t spend money in the gem store on it.
Which is exactly what is NOT happening. The game has sold incredibly well – and continues to sell earning good profit.

What does that teach us? It teaches us that the paying player base ( the one that matters anyway) likes what has been offered in GW2 and enjoys the game.

If so many people were so upset over the no-trinity, one-meta, omg zerk “problems” the game would have been a barren waste by year 3, and would have failed financially.

Please try to understand what I wrote.

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Ashen.2907:

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Garth Thurgen.1380:

Bla bla bla

Refusing to admit the problem exists doesn’t make it disappear, though.

I mean look, I have the understanding of these things. I was diamond in SC2, been in MMOs for a very long time, also play MOBAs. I can tell you son, I understand the problems. This discussion is for you, not for me.

Claiming that variety is a problem does not make it so either. You dont like GW2’s system. That doesnt make it a problem, it just means that you probably should reconsider spending money on games specifically advertised as not being for you. I dont like seafood and I dont go to seafood restaurants and complain that the menu is comprised of seafood.

I thought this was answered already? Why are you ignoring the answer? This kind of thing has been answered MANY times in the forum.

The answer is this: the no-trinity is ONE aspect of a much larger picture. The game is advertised as being great for me except for that one stain which is the zerk meta. If a restaurant makes a great dish that I love and decides to put a poop on the side of the seafood, I will complain about the poop being there and wanting it removed asap.

And what if the management tells you that what you consider “poop” is the reason that most of their other paying customers are there? What happens then? They change their dish so they can please you and upset everyone else?

Maybe if it’s your own metaphor you’ll understand

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Garth Thurgen.1380:

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Garth Thurgen.1380:

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Garth Thurgen.1380:

Bla bla bla

Refusing to admit the problem exists doesn’t make it disappear, though.

I mean look, I have the understanding of these things. I was diamond in SC2, been in MMOs for a very long time, also play MOBAs. I can tell you son, I understand the problems. This discussion is for you, not for me.

Refusing to admit that there isn’t a problem doesn’t exist make it appear, though.

Though, your use of “son” is a bit ironic. But whatever. If you cannot accept that there is only one meta for speed clearing dungeons, and that there are a blanket of other perfectly viable options underneath it, it’s on your head. I guess.

Maybe you need to stop thinking about “speed clearing dungeons” and start appreciating the finer things in life.

Not playing a game that clearly isn’t for me, and not complaining about it when the development team has what I dislike as their manifesto for the game?

Or are you trying to go with the “having a wife/girlfriend”? Because that’s going elicit a giant “Uhhh….” from me.

I mean that if you were less concerned about your in game pixel wallet and less stuck up about finishing dungeons fast, you would enjoy other gear sets and other gameplay mechanics than just “the fastest”.

Geez, I have to explain English to people who actually speak English these days…

And what if “the finer things in life” for me are my pixel wallet and finishing dungeons fast? Does that mean I have to stop enjoying the game the way I do and listen to you because you’re right and know better than me what I enjoy?

I am curious as to how taunts forcing the target to attack the taunter, a defining element of trinity play, works in MOBA games as claimed above. I dont play that genre but I can imagine, from my PvP experience in other genres, that it would be frustrating to have targeting choice taken away from the player.

Ashen.2907:

I am curious as to how taunts forcing the target to attack the taunter, a defining element of trinity play, works in MOBA games as claimed above. I dont play that genre but I can imagine, from my PvP experience in other genres, that it would be frustrating to have targeting choice taken away from the player.

Taunts exist in MOBAs, although they are quite uncommon. They usually can be seen as a hard CC effect which makes affected characters autoattack the caster for a short time.

Vargamonth.2047:

Ashen.2907:

I am curious as to how taunts forcing the target to attack the taunter, a defining element of trinity play, works in MOBA games as claimed above. I dont play that genre but I can imagine, from my PvP experience in other genres, that it would be frustrating to have targeting choice taken away from the player.

Taunts exist in MOBAs, although they are quite uncommon. They usually can be seen as a hard CC effect which makes affected characters autoattack the caster for a short time.

Cool, thank you.

Not a big fan of hard CC in PvP myself, but to each their own.

Ashen.2907:

I am curious as to how taunts forcing the target to attack the taunter, a defining element of trinity play, works in MOBA games as claimed above. I dont play that genre but I can imagine, from my PvP experience in other genres, that it would be frustrating to have targeting choice taken away from the player.

It works in them in a similar manner as in GW2: as a form of control effect. It’s just that, similar to how tanking in GW2 isn’t exactly optimal, “true tanking” in MOBAs tends to be extremely unoptimal. Instead, MOBAs tend to have additional sources of dps + higher survivability + CC instead of tanks. Basically, they have people that can control the battle.

Similarly, there isn’t a healer in the meta. Instead healing can be there, but more important is the ability to support your team. This can be anything from CC, to mobility, to buffs, to anything you can think of. For MOBAs the one true consistent thing is the additional visibility, but that’s more from the consumable wards than anything.

So, if you boil it down, the trinity in GW2 is the one run in MOBAs. They just have a more defined role system, as GW2 doesn’t enforce role even softly by class nor does it explicitly care what role that person happens to be doing (you could literally have a team of five healers and be fine for all of the content, assuming the players knew what they were doing).

Edit: Ah, that’s what you meant. Yeah, it’s a different type of Hard CC.

Hi animosity, i share your feeling about the instance pve been boring, however i dont think the problem is the zerker meta but the design.

For example you state that cornering its a problem because it “joins force” with other problems like the zerker meta, but what if it wasnt zerker meta but existed cornering:

1: Pulls become slower.
2: Party composition get one suport or more hibrids (or more probably a guardian or two).
3: Less likely: no cornering or more situational cornering.

In nearly all the case except one posibility of option 3: Killing mobs get slower.
So basically you will be pressing without thinking bottons for more time -.- .

Now lets view this in a design point of view:

Effects:

- Fights are not challenging because you dont need to move, can glitch them and dont feel really pressed to do them actively.
- Long fights arent rewarding and most of the big hp pools on monotones bosses can make them to repetitives and boring.
- More skill and/or coordination demanding dungeons arent played much because the effort, time and risk arent balanced to the rewards.
- Overall ythis problems will repeat after the population play new dungeons for 2 weeks or a litle more.

Problems to implementating any change:

- Raising the effort of dungeons via making them more demanding on active gameplay will make the balance reward – time, effort, risk , crumbles.

This means the first thing that need to be considerated to fix this situation is the reward system, but if we talk about only gold we will get to the point where theres more inflation.

They have tried but the system itself isnt very time, effort and risk considerate, instead it just make people do some dungeons (at the release you basically didnt get a thing for doing them so they would have eventually been nearly not played- if the changes they did didnt happen).

Now, after demostrating that the rewards need to be better if the dungeons are fixed, less considerating some of the problems:

Wall releated glitchs:

- You can hit enemies from the other side of the walls:
Either implementate a collision system with the walls or made the atacks that pass for them to miss.

- You can stuck enemies in walls or half in walls (like lupicus to make him die with a guard reflect wall):

- Make enemies have collision so they cant get in walls (a common and anoying bug btw).

Considerations:

- Enemies that where defeated this way or dungeon parts finished like this need to get betters rewards.
- For example you can make lupi give more mats like one giant eye, some corrupted cores and like 10s more —-> Make the more effort and risk related the more profitables.

Stacking mobs

- Again enemies have collision.

Considerations:

- Make silver dungeon mobs drop much more mats, preferible always drop something. This will not make so much gold since they will drop in price, but will make the farming less profitable and also more attainable the legendaries and other crafting skins.

Skips

- Make enemies have collision to made some run paths more difficult and make so that they learn to close your path, specialy trying to surround you (you cant pass their bodies and they dont let you run away).
- Make silver dungeon mobs profitable so its more interesting to not skip them.

Consideration:

- Make silver dungeon mobs profitable.

Big Hp pool bosses

Make them have stages so they dont get too much repetitives.

Considerations:

- Make their drops a lot better if you do this.

About bosses stages:

- Make them not too similar or the player will not get a feelng of renovation in each stage.
- Make stages increase in difficulty so that players feel the fight intensificate towards the end (still not dumb down the actuals just make the new stages more intense).
- Remember that a more effort and risk, better rewards.

Recapitulating this will fix at some degress stacking, cornering, a lot of glitchs, the most boring fights and skips.
(taking a break, posting more later….)

maha, I don’t particularly want to reply to you, as I’m not really invested in this subject anymore, because I had already said everything I had to say, several times, before this thread even came into being.

Either ANet will sort it out, or they won’t.

But, I guess I should put a few things straight, just so you don’t wander off thinking that making multiple assumptions, about someone you don’t even know, works…

So, here we go:

1. Yes, I would probably be even worse off meleeing, on Ranger, in zergs; but that doesn’t mean I feel in any way secure, or that I have “zero risk” at ranged, because I don’t.

In fact, I am pretty sure I would be far better off meleeing on a heavy armour, tanky type class/build.

Partly because, even though I love bows and pets and the ranger/hunter type class, I find heavy armour meleeing far, far, far (there aren’t enough "far"s in the world!) more easy and instinctive, even in WoW PVP.

2. I was referring to how they handle ranged vs melee in WoW, mainly.

But, as I say, I have discussed all this before, so I will leave that point there.

3. No, as I have said several times already, on this forum, I have only been playing for a few months (just under 3, actually); not 3 years.

Not everyone has been playing the game for a full 3 years and people assuming that everyone has, is one of the main problems (other than its design) that the game has.

I think I have already said, on this very thread, that I may well leave sooner, or later (if not, I have certainly said it elsewhere) and I have certainly said, on this thread, that it doesn’t look like this will be the game for me, in the long run.

So, other than to have a go at me, unnecessarily, there is no good reason for you to say that to me (or anyone, really).

4. No, the tl;dr is that I don’t want to be inefficient, or sub-optimal; regardless of if I can make my own groups and then be that way, or not.

So, more-or-less the exact opposite of what you said.

5. It’s not so much that I can’t be bothered to make a group, I’m just not interesting in being a group maker, or leader, especially at this stage.

Also, if someone can just go back to WoW, hop on their char and queue for a dungeon, by just opening a window and clicking a button, why on earth would they bother hanging around here making their own, quirkily inefficent, groups?

Especially as, in WoW, you don’t have to worry about class choice, or spec choice, or gear type, or weapon choice, or build choice, or even pet type on hunter (as long as you put your pet in a DPS spec).

The only, potential, downside is that you might (or might not) have to wait a little longer for a tank/healer.

Why would anyone, in their right mind, want to hang around here, going out of their way to make their own quirky groups and feeling like a bit of a weird outcast for doing it, when they can just do that?

I don’t just mean me; I mean anyone.

Met another WoW hunter in WvW, a few days ago and he grouped with me and said he was unhappy about pretty much all the same stuff as me.

I had mentioned one thing on map chat, but he came up with virtually all the rest of it, without prompting.

He was so unhappy, he asked me if I would go back to WoW with him and we could level a char together.

But, I play(ed) on the EU servers, so even if I had wanted to go back to WoW, I couldn’t have played it with him, anyway.

He was then on the next day and we grouped and did some WvW again, but then he suddenly just logged, without saying anything and I haven’t seen him on again since.

My guess is that he went back to WoW.

Now, I obviously know you don’t care about that, as you just told me to leave, as well; but ANet probably should care, if this is a regular type of occurrence (and I bet it is).

6. I’m not a “sir” and neither are a good proportion of the game’s playerbase, if you go by all the female voices regularly on TS3.

So, I think it may well be long overdue for you to stop assuming that all game players are male, unless stated/proven otherwise.

Especially as the “sir” was obviously not meant in a polite way, but rather a condescending one.

Wasted so much time writing walls of text for the likes of Harper and Farth Thungen that I’m not even gonna bother. It’s useless to play chess with a chicken, it will just knock down all the pieces and declare itself the winner.

All I have to say is this: regardless what concepts were originally in this game, the fact is there is a suggestion forum, the fact is Devs try to listen to players a minimum and the fact is that some things have changed since the start. This means that I am free to state my opinion about trinity being useful and I don’t need to go to another game to pursue having it set in place.

The fact is that there’s 25 armor sets in game and only one is prominently used. And before you say “PvP” again, I will remind you that this discussion is about PvE, stop trying to change the topic.

The fact is that while you like your no-trinity nonsense, even for a no-trinity this game is very poorly balanced when it comes to meta. The meta lacks diveristy (I do not care if you personally don’t like diversity, you can’t claim this game was advertised as anti-diversity when there’s all these armor stats and traits). I’m not a game dev so it’s not my job to figure out how, but I’m sure they can work out a way to balance this. If Nexon has managed to do so with Vindictus (by not having gear stat choice to begin with) then I’m sure Anet can figure something out as well.

And yeah if there’s a new meta, I will immediately jump into it and then flame whatever zerk tryhards still wouldn’t have switched, even if they were few, because I’m sure that not all of them will switch over immediately. I’m sure many of them would try to keep their thing going for as long as possible.

Tigaseye.2047:

snip

So what you are saying is, another player who you met noticed that the game was not to his liking (in similar ways you dislike it), offered you to return with him to WoW (which didn’t work out due to regional restrictions), and eventually has not loged in since, while you stay and log in to play still feeling disapointed in certain areas of the game.

Intersting how 2 different individuals with shared distaste for something come to two different solutions.

- His solution being to leave and go back to something he enjoys more.
- Your solution to stay around in an enviroment you do not enjoy and try to actively change it.

So what I take from this is, you would want to deprive everyone else who enjoys GW2 for what it is of their fun, because you want the game to change to something already available elsewhere. That does seem mighty selfish would you not agree?

Dawnbreaker.6215:

All I have to say is this: regardless what concepts were originally in this game, the fact is there is a suggestion forum, the fact is Devs try to listen to players a minimum and the fact is that some things have changed since the start. This means that I am free to state my opinion about trinity being useful and I don’t need to go to another game to pursue having it set in place.

The devs will never change the fundamental design of the game, adding any form of trinity (tank/healer/dps) is going against that. So it will never happen no matter how many times you or anyone else asks for a trinity.

The fact is that there’s 25 armor sets in game and only one is prominently used. And before you say “PvP” again, I will remind you that this discussion is about PvE, stop trying to change the topic.

And who cares about armor set variety? It was a mistake to even have some of those TROLL sets that are useless for anything (like Nomad). Armor is only a small part of a player’s build, a very small one as shown clearly by very good players finishing the hardest content naked. Or by afking boss fights using survival gear, the same type of gear people on these forums want buffed! Players can already facetank and afk auto attack hard bosses in the game with “proper” healing/defensive builds, so what’s next? Making sure those afk people can do the runs at the same speed as full offensive sets?

The fact is that while you like your no-trinity nonsense, even for a no-trinity this game is very poorly balanced when it comes to meta. The meta lacks diveristy (I do not care if you personally don’t like diversity, you can’t claim this game was advertised as anti-diversity when there’s all these armor stats and traits). I’m not a game dev so it’s not my job to figure out how, but I’m sure they can work out a way to balance this. If Nexon has managed to do so with Vindictus (by not having gear stat choice to begin with) then I’m sure Anet can figure something out as well.

Shows clearly you don’t know much about the meta. When I play my Thief I may switch builds nearly 11 times (counting going back too) during an Arah P1 run. When I run my Guardian in fractals (depends on fractal) I will change my build numerous times too. How is that for diversity? Have you ever played a Guardian / Thief in any kind of high end PVE to see how many times you ARE EXPECTED by the “meta” to change your build to adopt a new playstyle and completely change how you play?

Even the “dreaded” metabattle website has variants and skill/trait recommendations for different encounters.

What’s the only thing that doesn’t change? Your gear stats. And I love that fact, requiring players to have multiple ascended gear sets to fill or the roles they are expected to, would LIMIT variety due to the insane cost of ascended gear. If I HAD to get specific gear stats to provide maximum stealth for my party, or optimal self healing, of better blind field duration etc do you know what I’d do? I’d stay with just one build for the entire run, boring stale and exactly what I was going to do in a trinity game. Now I have a choice.

maddoctor.2738:

Shows clearly you don’t know much about the meta. When I play my Thief I may switch builds nearly 11 times (counting going back too) during an Arah P1 run. When I run my Guardian in fractals (depends on fractal) I will change my build numerous times too. How is that for diversity? Have you ever played a Guardian / Thief in any kind of high end PVE to see how many times you ARE EXPECTED by the “meta” to change your build to adopt a new playstyle and completely change how you play?

Strawman. This discussion is about gear and you know it. Don’t try to change the topic.

I can’t see the freedom of gear builds happening anywhere, when 90% of the community is running zerker and demanding zerker in dungeons.

What we want is for the “zerk meta” announcements in LFG to be gone and for condition builds, off-tanks, tanks, healers and such to be viable.

You say that you are anti trinity but really what happens in this game isn’t that you completely removed trinity. You have nukers, tanks and healers in the trinity setup. Here in GW2 what happened is that you removed the tanks and healers, and kept the nukers. So congrats, GW2 is running on 1/3rd of the trinity.

And AGAIN, before you jump in and start strawmaning about traits, skills and abilities, we are talking about GEAR, in PVE, and nothing else here.

I don’t think that announcing meta in LFG is a bad thing, most people who knew what this means are most of the time player who knew how to play. And I don’t like sitting in a group and wiping at ac p1 because the player don’t know what to do.
The Problem with the Gear is something that isn’t going to be changed, because:
- There is only one best, and that will never change, there can never be multiple “bests”.
- Condi dmg is bad designed for PvE, the dmg over time is way slower than pure dmg.

Your argument that you don’t have enough Gear variety used and only talk about PvE is somewhat strage, if you expand it to PvP and WvW, suddenly you have players who use nearly everything. I have only for WvW one Armor with full Tank, Tank healing, a variety of condi armors, zerker armors and two celestial. All sets with different Weapons, Sigills, Runes, etc.
So it isn’t that you can’t use them. Some are just designed to be used in other aspects of the game. But yes, I would never play my full tank guard in a dungeon!

Last thing: you can’t just claim meta is bad because it uses only one gear and claim that it has nothing to do with the traits, skills, and abilities. Meta only works because you have these to compensate the lack of a tank and healer. Try to play a full zerk ele and have a Guard in your group that never uses retreat or reflect, you can’t dodge forever. Meta is more than just the equipment!

Dawnbreaker.6215:

maddoctor.2738:

Shows clearly you don’t know much about the meta. When I play my Thief I may switch builds nearly 11 times (counting going back too) during an Arah P1 run. When I run my Guardian in fractals (depends on fractal) I will change my build numerous times too. How is that for diversity? Have you ever played a Guardian / Thief in any kind of high end PVE to see how many times you ARE EXPECTED by the “meta” to change your build to adopt a new playstyle and completely change how you play?

Strawman. This discussion is about gear and you know it. Don’t try to change the topic.

I can’t see the freedom of gear builds happening anywhere, when 90% of the community is running zerker and demanding zerker in dungeons.

What we want is for the “zerk meta” announcements in LFG to be gone and for condition builds, off-tanks, tanks, healers and such to be viable.

You say that you are anti trinity but really what happens in this game isn’t that you completely removed trinity. You have nukers, tanks and healers in the trinity setup. Here in GW2 what happened is that you removed the tanks and healers, and kept the nukers. So congrats, GW2 is running on 1/3rd of the trinity.

And AGAIN, before you jump in and start strawmaning about traits, skills and abilities, we are talking about GEAR, in PVE, and nothing else here.

No we are not discussing only GEAR here if you want to discuss only gear here then say it. You are saying there is no DIVERSITY when there is a LOT OF diversity in the game, you are saying the zerker meta is bad, when those zerkers you hate are doing more than healers/tanks and nukers combined.

I am strawmanning? First you say you are talking about gear stats, then what does the TRINITY and having roles have to do with gear stats? Absolutely nothing. Using Berserker gear doesn’t mean you are a DPS/nuker character, I know it’s shocking for someone who loves the trinity to come to this realization but it’s the truth.

Last I checked a Wall of Reflection is not a damaging skill, Shadow Refugee isn’t either. So why are you talking about diversity? You can be a TANK and absorb huge amounts of damage, a Support character that buffs and heals the party and a Control character that can knock down, fear, weaken and chill foes while using full Berserker gear. That’s the beauty of this game (and in no way a bad thing)

You are the one talking about roles, variety and diversity then saying it’s only about gear. Well it’s not, you can’t have a discussion about roles, variety and diversity while talking only about gear. So make up your mind, is this about the zerker meta, roles and build diversity, or simply just about some useless gear stats?

My opinion on gear stats? Already posted it:

What’s the only thing that doesn’t change? Your gear stats. And I love that fact, requiring players to have multiple ascended gear sets to fill or the roles they are expected to, would LIMIT variety due to the insane cost of ascended gear. If I HAD to get specific gear stats to provide maximum stealth for my party, or optimal self healing, of better blind field duration etc do you know what I’d do? I’d stay with just one build for the entire run, boring stale and exactly what I was going to do in a trinity game. Now I have a choice.

I don’t give a kitten about gear stats because I want to keep my diversity and variety and not be limited by my gear as you and others want. I want to play most builds I want to play without requiring specific gear to do so. I don’t want to be forced to use Cleric to be a good Support, or Soldier to be a good Tank, or worse, have multiple sets of Ascended armor, while now I can switch my build with a click of a few buttons.

maddoctor.2738:

Wall of boring zerk meta fanboyism

Then why are we not removing gear stats from PvE? What the kitten is the point of having a CHOICE in PvE at all, if like you say you can do everything in zerker?

Oh and don’t give me the “learning” argument bullkitten. Everyone and their mom can go straight to zerk and that’s exactly what happens in most cases. People get to level 80, ask in map chat what gear they should use, get told to use zerk and roll with it. Also, over 3 years most people have learnt their dungeons.

If you’re not playing a guardian as a nuker then why even use zerk on it? See, it makes no sense. Also, I thought you didn’t want trinity? So why do you want variety in roles in a party? Why do you want a guardian to use reflects or a thief to skip through difficult puzzles? I thought you only wanted damage here and no class interdependence at all? According to your logic, all classes should be able to do exactly what the guardian and the thief does, there should not be a “looking for guardian” or “looking for thief” in LFG because of this, and yet there is, because as we both know that wall of reflection is useful.

Your posts are so full of hypocricy, double standards, strawmen and what not, it’s just ridiculous. You are surrounded by this huge mass of zerk fanboys who make you think that what you say is logical but it really isn’t.

So yeah do answer the question without going into some fallacy like “because new players need to learn”. Why is gear choice needed in PvE? You have made a very clear point that you can do everything, including supportive roles, with one single gear choice, so yeah. Why not have a gear set that provides enough HP for noobs to learn and enough damage for veterans to speedrun dungeons? Think of the valkyrie set, that would be a perfect example of an all-round set everyone can make use of. Let’s make gear choices a PvP / WvW exclusive thing and put everyone in Valkyrie/rampager-like gear.

Oh and please do me a favor and don’t backpedal on what you just said or start strawmaning again, stop being so evasive, get your act straight and answer the topic at hand.

You gear load out is just a math problem to be solved.

(Highest DPS you can bring to the table) / (durability your skill level requires for survival) = Gear Setup

All the rest of it is traits and upgrade components.

Dawnbreaker.6215:

maddoctor.2738:

Wall of boring zerk meta fanboyism

Then why are we not removing gear stats from PvE? What the kitten is the point of having a CHOICE in PvE at all, if like you say you can do everything in zerker?

Oh and don’t give me the “learning” argument bullkitten. Everyone and their mom can go straight to zerk and that’s exactly what happens in most cases. People get to level 80, ask in map chat what gear they should use, get told to use zerk and roll with it. Also, over 3 years most people have learnt their dungeons.

If you’re not playing a guardian as a nuker then why even use zerk on it? See, it makes no sense. Also, I thought you didn’t want trinity? So why do you want variety in roles in a party? Why do you want a guardian to use reflects or a thief to skip through difficult puzzles? I thought you only wanted damage here and no class interdependence at all? According to your logic, all classes should be able to do exactly what the guardian and the thief does, there should not be a “looking for guardian” or “looking for thief” in LFG because of this, and yet there is, because as we both know that wall of reflection is useful.

Your posts are so full of hypocricy, double standards, strawmen and what not, it’s just ridiculous. You are surrounded by this huge mass of zerk fanboys who make you think that what you say is logical but it really isn’t.

So yeah do answer the question without going into some fallacy like “because new players need to learn”. Why is gear choice needed in PvE? You have made a very clear point that you can do everything, including supportive roles, with one single gear choice, so yeah. Why not have a gear set that provides enough HP for noobs to learn and enough damage for veterans to speedrun dungeons? Think of the valkyrie set, that would be a perfect example of an all-round set everyone can make use of. Let’s make gear choices a PvP / WvW exclusive thing and put everyone in Valkyrie/rampager-like gear.

Oh and please do me a favor and don’t backpedal on what you just said or start strawmaning again, stop being so evasive, get your act straight and answer the topic at hand.

- because zerker is not best in slot for every class (mesmer = assassins for example)
- because not every player functions equally efficiently with zerker gear (yes, some players will never be able to play in zerker gear due to lack of relfexes etc.). This point alone shows how little experience you have with different levels of player skill of others.
- because different aspects of the game require different approaches. Someone soloing a dungeon might not go for pure zerker gear
- because wvw and pve share gear and equipment (even if you don’t care about wvw, it is part of the game and getting played and deserves mention)

You consistently fail to understand that gear does not have the same role in this game compared to other traditional mmos. Your traits and skills are what your build is, your gear just compliments this. Whats funny is, you complain about BiS gear here, but are fine with it in WoW (where best in slot exists for every class and role, just lookup http://www.wowbis.net/ ).

While at it, can we get this thread closed. It has been derailed enough and has turn into the traditional “I want traditional trinity” and “I don’t want traditional trinity” circle disscussion.

Or merge it with one of the other threads.

Cyninja.2954:

Dawnbreaker.6215:

maddoctor.2738:

Wall of boring zerk meta fanboyism

Then why are we not removing gear stats from PvE? What the kitten is the point of having a CHOICE in PvE at all, if like you say you can do everything in zerker?

Oh and don’t give me the “learning” argument bullkitten. Everyone and their mom can go straight to zerk and that’s exactly what happens in most cases. People get to level 80, ask in map chat what gear they should use, get told to use zerk and roll with it. Also, over 3 years most people have learnt their dungeons.

If you’re not playing a guardian as a nuker then why even use zerk on it? See, it makes no sense. Also, I thought you didn’t want trinity? So why do you want variety in roles in a party? Why do you want a guardian to use reflects or a thief to skip through difficult puzzles? I thought you only wanted damage here and no class interdependence at all? According to your logic, all classes should be able to do exactly what the guardian and the thief does, there should not be a “looking for guardian” or “looking for thief” in LFG because of this, and yet there is, because as we both know that wall of reflection is useful.

Your posts are so full of hypocricy, double standards, strawmen and what not, it’s just ridiculous. You are surrounded by this huge mass of zerk fanboys who make you think that what you say is logical but it really isn’t.

So yeah do answer the question without going into some fallacy like “because new players need to learn”. Why is gear choice needed in PvE? You have made a very clear point that you can do everything, including supportive roles, with one single gear choice, so yeah. Why not have a gear set that provides enough HP for noobs to learn and enough damage for veterans to speedrun dungeons? Think of the valkyrie set, that would be a perfect example of an all-round set everyone can make use of. Let’s make gear choices a PvP / WvW exclusive thing and put everyone in Valkyrie/rampager-like gear.

Oh and please do me a favor and don’t backpedal on what you just said or start strawmaning again, stop being so evasive, get your act straight and answer the topic at hand.

- because zerker is not best in slot for every class (mesmer = assassins for example)
- because not every player functions equally efficiently with zerker gear (yes, some players will never be able to play in zerker gear due to lack of relfexes etc.). This point alone shows how little experience you have with different levels of player skill of others.
- because different aspects of the game require different approaches. Someone soloing a dungeon might not go for pure zerker gear
- because wvw and pve share gear and equipment (even if you don’t care about wvw, it is part of the game and getting played and deserves mention)

You consistently fail to understand that gear does not have the same role in this game compared to other traditional mmos. Your traits and skills are what your build is, your gear just compliments this. Whats funny is, you complain about BiS gear here, but are fine with it in WoW (where best in slot exists for every class and role, just lookup http://www.wowbis.net/ ).

You avoided the integrity of the question AGAIN. All in an effort to put up some “this shows you know nothing” ad-hominem that has nothing to do with the topic.

So I’ll just ask again, until you either forfeit or provide a reasonable answer to it:

Why not replace all PvE gear with a single set that provides enough HP for noobs to learn and enough damage for veterans to speedrun, with some conditions included, while keeping WvW gear choices a matter of their own?

Can you stop strawmaning now or do I have to clarify the same question 10 times over?

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Then why are we not removing gear stats from PvE? What the kitten is the point of having a CHOICE in PvE at all, if like you say you can do everything in zerker?

Removing stats from traits is a good step forward, removing lots of gear sets, merging others and tweaking the amount of stats they give is the next step. We don’t need so many gear stats, most of them are useless.

Also, over 3 years most people have learnt their dungeons.

And found out the “meta” or “optimal” builds to run through content faster, because after 3 years of doing the same thing, you get bored of it. Finding faster (and easier) ways to do the runs is what theorycrafting we can do in a game that is supposed to be beaten with any set-up.

If you’re not playing a guardian as a nuker then why even use zerk on it? See, it makes no sense.

It does. It’s the other way that doesn’t make sense, if you use gear set1 you are tank, if you use gear set2 you are healer. And I ask WHY? Why do roles need to be put behind gear barriers in the first place? Why do I need to invest in multiple gear sets for the ability to play all those different builds? That’s what makes no sense to me.

Also, I thought you didn’t want trinity? So why do you want variety in roles in a party? Why do you want a guardian to use reflects or a thief to skip through difficult puzzles? I thought you only wanted damage here and no class interdependence at all? According to your logic, all classes should be able to do exactly what the guardian and the thief does, there should not be a “looking for guardian” or “looking for thief” in LFG because of this, and yet there is, because as we both know that wall of reflection is useful.

I thought this thread was only about gear. Anyway, I never said I only want damage and I never said I don’t want players to depend on others. If you read what I posted I said the exact opposite, I want reflections and stealth, I want Support and Control and showed how those are ALREADY BEING USED in the game, as an argument on variety and diversity.

So yeah do answer the question without going into some fallacy like “because new players need to learn”. Why is gear choice needed in PvE? You have made a very clear point that you can do everything, including supportive roles, with one single gear choice, so yeah. Why not have a gear set that provides enough HP for noobs to learn and enough damage for veterans to speedrun dungeons? Think of the valkyrie set, that would be a perfect example of an all-round set everyone can make use of. Let’s make gear choices a PvP / WvW exclusive thing and put everyone in Valkyrie/rampager-like gear.

Not one for sure, but certainly not 23. There are quite a few good gear sets and with some of the upcoming HOT changes in how conditions work and how certain traits give extra critical chance, perhaps Precision won’t be as important and Condition damage will be more viable. Less and better sets is better than an overflow of sets that most see no use at all.

As for more defensive gear (Tough/Vitality/Healing), I already answered that too. You can already do content in full Cleric or Nomad without even dodging, just using auto attacks. How is this “buff” on those gear sets going to work exactly, do you want those afkers to do the runs as fast as a zerker party?

Oh and please do me a favor and don’t backpedal on what you just said or start strawmaning again, stop being so evasive, get your act straight and answer the topic at hand.

It’s hard to stay on topic when you are changing the topic on every one of your posts and then calling strawman. Nice tactic to evade counter arguments, just call strawman when you run out of anything to say, are you a politician maybe?

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Then why are we not removing gear stats from PvE? What the kitten is the point of having a CHOICE in PvE at all, if like you say you can do everything in zerker?

Because there are still some PvE enemys that are not efficent to play with Bersi equipment. Like the Husk against the Tri-Worm or Tequatle.

Dawnbreaker.6215:

If you’re not playing a guardian as a nuker then why even use zerk on it? See, it makes no sense. Also, I thought you didn’t want trinity? So why do you want variety in roles in a party? Why do you want a guardian to use reflects or a thief to skip through difficult puzzles? I thought you only wanted damage here and no class interdependence at all? According to your logic, all classes should be able to do exactly what the guardian and the thief does, there should not be a “looking for guardian” or “looking for thief” in LFG because of this, and yet there is, because as we both know that wall of reflection is useful.

I think you didn’t get that meta is more than just the Gear.
You need the reflect because some enemys will wipe your group, you need Aegis to block some attacks or you die, and stealth to skip mobs to save time.
So you put a group together where you make use of the biggest potential.
There are dungeons where you don’t need a thief, because you can run past everything or have to kill it.
There are dungeons where you can switch your guard for a mesmer, because you don’t need so much reflect.
Or you don’t need a war in AC because the banner are useless on this char lvl.
But what you need is max dps to kill the boss before he hits you to often. So everyone plays witch as many utility needed and as much dmg as possible.
You trade dmg for utility, that is why some classes are better than other for dungeons.
For example the Necro: He has very low dps and not very much utility, so he is not very popular.
The Staff+FB Ele has nerly no utility but the highest dmg possible, so he is as usefull as a guard who has high utility and low dps.

Dawnbreaker.6215:

So yeah do answer the question without going into some fallacy like “because new players need to learn”. Why is gear choice needed in PvE? You have made a very clear point that you can do everything, including supportive roles, with one single gear choice, so yeah. Why not have a gear set that provides enough HP for noobs to learn and enough damage for veterans to speedrun dungeons? Think of the valkyrie set, that would be a perfect example of an all-round set everyone can make use of. Let’s make gear choices a PvP / WvW exclusive thing and put everyone in Valkyrie/rampager-like gear.

To play meta means that you want to complete the dungeons as fast as possible, to be the most efficent.
The biggest problem here is that you have to kill certain bosses to go further, the longer you need to kill the monster, the inefficient the run.
To kill the mobs as fast as possible you take as much dmg as possible and lern how to survive with that low HP.
Why should I play Vallkyrie/rampager when I can survive in a fight against the enemy without dying with a full set of zerker? So why choose something that you don’t need just to be different?

Ashen.2907:

2) Nonsensical/idiotic for the simple fact that, by design, foes in trinity games are idiots and act nonsensically. Insisting on attacking the nigh invulnerable character who does minimal damage while ignoring the characters actually doing the damage that will bring him down and the character keeping everyone going through healing magic is bad. Game designers who created the concept should be ashamed of dumbing down fantasy gaming in that manner.

Its always soooo funny when people ask for more enemy AI in trinity games.

Enemies beeing dumb as hell is the only reason that trinity works. If they are
not totally dumb they would simply kill the healer first, then the DDs, and
ignore the tank till the end.

And at that point any trinity game would suddenly be unplayable.

Dawnbreaker.6215:

You avoided the integrity of the question AGAIN. All in an effort to put up some “this shows you know nothing” ad-hominem that has nothing to do with the topic.

So I’ll just ask again, until you either forfeit or provide a reasonable answer to it:

Why not replace all PvE gear with a single set that provides enough HP for noobs to learn and enough damage for veterans to speedrun, with some conditions included, while keeping WvW gear choices a matter of their own?

Can you stop strawmaning now or do I have to clarify the same question 10 times over?

I’ve given solid reasons, as have others. You not accepting them is your choice. Going by your posting history there is no reason to continue this disscussion if we go by the basic idea that a disscussion is the exchange of ideas.

All you accept is your own opinion and arguments while dissmissing, often in a hostile tone, others or repeatedly reasking the same question ignoring all input given.

Feel free to continue on your futile quest. I’m going to continue to enjoy this game and take it for what it is hoping anet stay on track.

maddoctor.2738:

And found out the “meta” or “optimal” builds to run through content faster, because after 3 years of doing the same thing, you get bored of it. Finding faster (and easier) ways to do the runs is what theorycrafting we can do in a game that is supposed to be beaten with any set-up.

No one in this thread has said one kittening word against that. You can now stop answering things that have not been contested.

maddoctor.2738:

It does. It’s the other way that doesn’t make sense, if you use gear set1 you are tank, if you use gear set2 you are healer. And I ask WHY? Why do roles need to be put behind gear barriers in the first place? Why do I need to invest in multiple gear sets for the ability to play all those different builds? That’s what makes no sense to me.

They’re not behind gear barriers, but as you have already admitted, they have class barriers. You can find in LFG “looking for guardian” because of reflections. They are good supportive classes, they backup the nukers even if they too are in full zerk. That type of class-dependence is a major characteristic about the trinity system. You seem to fiercely oppose the trinity system when it comes to gear, but I don’t see you complaining about it when it comes to guardians being needed in parties.

See if there’s 1 top most efficient gear stat there is also 1 top most efficient class combo for dungeons. Can’t get away from that. Yet many players draw the line on “zerk meta” but not on classes. Hypocricy at its finest.

Also, inb4 you derail everything I just said in this paragraph and make some strawman of your own. I can see it coming miles away.

maddoctor.2738:

I want Support and Control and showed how those are ALREADY BEING USED in the game, as an argument on variety and diversity.

Already being used in game by classes fully equipped in zerk only.

maddoctor.2738:

Not one for sure, but certainly not 23. There are quite a few good gear sets and with some of the upcoming HOT changes in how conditions work and how certain traits give extra critical chance, perhaps Precision won’t be as important and Condition damage will be more viable. Less and better sets is better than an overflow of sets that most see no use at all.

As stated before, there can’t be more than one “best” gear set. Also, I will remind you of your own point of not having to create various ascended armor sets. Having only one all-around type gear set would be enough.

maddoctor.2738:

As for more defensive gear (Tough/Vitality/Healing), I already answered that too. You can already do content in full Cleric or Nomad without even dodging, just using auto attacks. How is this “buff” on those gear sets going to work exactly, do you want those afkers to do the runs as fast as a zerker party?

If, like you said, a zerk gear user can support and “tank”, then why can’t the opposite be true as well? Sounds like a double standard to me.

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Wasted so much time writing walls of text for the likes of Harper and Farth Thungen that I’m not even gonna bother. It’s useless to play chess with a chicken, it will just knock down all the pieces and declare itself the winner.

All I have to say is this: regardless what concepts were originally in this game, the fact is there is a suggestion forum, the fact is Devs try to listen to players a minimum and the fact is that some things have changed since the start. This means that I am free to state my opinion about trinity being useful and I don’t need to go to another game to pursue having it set in place.

The fact is that there’s 25 armor sets in game and only one is prominently used. And before you say “PvP” again, I will remind you that this discussion is about PvE, stop trying to change the topic.

The fact is that while you like your no-trinity nonsense, even for a no-trinity this game is very poorly balanced when it comes to meta. The meta lacks diveristy (I do not care if you personally don’t like diversity, you can’t claim this game was advertised as anti-diversity when there’s all these armor stats and traits). I’m not a game dev so it’s not my job to figure out how, but I’m sure they can work out a way to balance this. If Nexon has managed to do so with Vindictus (by not having gear stat choice to begin with) then I’m sure Anet can figure something out as well.

And yeah if there’s a new meta, I will immediately jump into it and then flame whatever zerk tryhards still wouldn’t have switched, even if they were few, because I’m sure that not all of them will switch over immediately. I’m sure many of them would try to keep their thing going for as long as possible.

You must have been kicked out of a lot of dungeon parties to be this vindictive. You write walls of text but I’m pretty sure you only have one real problem. For some reason you are hindered from making your own group or from joining casual runs.

Frostfire.7492:

To play meta means that you want to complete the dungeons as fast as possible, to be the most efficent.
The biggest problem here is that you have to kill certain bosses to go further, the longer you need to kill the monster, the inefficient the run.
To kill the mobs as fast as possible you take as much dmg as possible and lern how to survive with that low HP.
Why should I play Vallkyrie/rampager when I can survive in a fight against the enemy without dying with a full set of zerker? So why choose something that you don’t need just to be different?

You’re ignoring the point of the question so, like I said, I’ll ask again, and again, and again:

Why not replace ALL PvE gear with a single set that provides enough HP for noobs to learn and enough damage for veterans to speedrun, with some conditions included, while keeping WvW gear choices a matter of their own?

This means REPLACE all gear. You know English? Remove zerk, remove nomads, remove the choices FROM PVE. Keep one all-in-one set similar to a combination of valkyrie and rampagers so that everyone is happy, noobs can learn, veterans can speedrun. What is your problem with that?

Dawnbreaker.6215:

maddoctor.2738:

And found out the “meta” or “optimal” builds to run through content faster, because after 3 years of doing the same thing, you get bored of it. Finding faster (and easier) ways to do the runs is what theorycrafting we can do in a game that is supposed to be beaten with any set-up.

No one in this thread has said one kittening word against that. You can now stop answering things that have not been contested.

You did, remember?

Oh and don’t give me the “learning” argument bullkitten. Everyone and their mom can go straight to zerk and that’s exactly what happens in most cases. People get to level 80, ask in map chat what gear they should use, get told to use zerk and roll with it. Also, over 3 years most people have learnt their dungeons.

You answered yourself why people go straight to zerk and why they go zerk after hitting 80. And now that you say you don’t contest that, then what exactly is your problem? People found out that full zerker is the fastest way and since you have no problem with it, what exactly are you talking about over all the last posts in this thread?

If you agree with it let’s end the thread and be done with it already.

maddoctor.2738:

Dawnbreaker.6215:

maddoctor.2738:

And found out the “meta” or “optimal” builds to run through content faster, because after 3 years of doing the same thing, you get bored of it. Finding faster (and easier) ways to do the runs is what theorycrafting we can do in a game that is supposed to be beaten with any set-up.

No one in this thread has said one kittening word against that. You can now stop answering things that have not been contested.

You did, remember?

Oh and don’t give me the “learning” argument bullkitten. Everyone and their mom can go straight to zerk and that’s exactly what happens in most cases. People get to level 80, ask in map chat what gear they should use, get told to use zerk and roll with it. Also, over 3 years most people have learnt their dungeons.

You answered yourself why people go straight to zerk and why they go zerk after hitting 80. And now that you say you don’t contest that, then what exactly is your problem? People found out that full zerker is the fastest way and since you have no problem with it, what exactly are you talking about over all the last posts in this thread?

If you agree with it let’s end the thread and be done with it already.

1. No I did not ever kittening contest that there is 1 build in this game that is the most efficient of all.

2. What I am talking about is since zerk is the most efficient then why do we have 23 choices? Seriously, do you even read what I am posting at all? I feel like I’m talking to someone who is deaf. More copy/pasta for you, bored of re-explaining:

Why not replace all PvE gear with a single set that provides enough HP for noobs to learn and enough damage for veterans to speedrun, with some conditions included, while keeping WvW gear choices a matter of their own?

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Frostfire.7492:

To play meta means that you want to complete the dungeons as fast as possible, to be the most efficent.
The biggest problem here is that you have to kill certain bosses to go further, the longer you need to kill the monster, the inefficient the run.
To kill the mobs as fast as possible you take as much dmg as possible and lern how to survive with that low HP.
Why should I play Vallkyrie/rampager when I can survive in a fight against the enemy without dying with a full set of zerker? So why choose something that you don’t need just to be different?

You’re ignoring the point of the question so, like I said, I’ll ask again, and again, and again:

Why not replace ALL PvE gear with a single set that provides enough HP for noobs to learn and enough damage for veterans to speedrun, with some conditions included, while keeping WvW gear choices a matter of their own?

This means REPLACE all gear. You know English? Remove zerk, remove nomads, remove the choices FROM PVE. Keep one all-in-one set similar to a combination of valkyrie and rampagers so that everyone is happy, noobs can learn, veterans can speedrun. What is your problem with that?

It would make the game even easier and duller. Right now you have to choose: do you want damage or do you want to be safer? What you’re basically suggesting is to buff base stats so everybody can live after eating 3 lupi kicks on ele while still dealing tons of damage.

petyr baelish.9675:

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Frostfire.7492:

To play meta means that you want to complete the dungeons as fast as possible, to be the most efficent.
The biggest problem here is that you have to kill certain bosses to go further, the longer you need to kill the monster, the inefficient the run.
To kill the mobs as fast as possible you take as much dmg as possible and lern how to survive with that low HP.
Why should I play Vallkyrie/rampager when I can survive in a fight against the enemy without dying with a full set of zerker? So why choose something that you don’t need just to be different?

You’re ignoring the point of the question so, like I said, I’ll ask again, and again, and again:

Why not replace ALL PvE gear with a single set that provides enough HP for noobs to learn and enough damage for veterans to speedrun, with some conditions included, while keeping WvW gear choices a matter of their own?

This means REPLACE all gear. You know English? Remove zerk, remove nomads, remove the choices FROM PVE. Keep one all-in-one set similar to a combination of valkyrie and rampagers so that everyone is happy, noobs can learn, veterans can speedrun. What is your problem with that?

It would make the game even easier and duller. Right now you have to choose: do you want damage or do you want to be safer? What you’re basically suggesting is to buff base stats so everybody can live after eating 3 lupi kicks on ele while still dealing tons of damage.

50/50 balanced choice then. Just enough damage to complete but not too much HP so it’s still challenging. All noobs learn in zerk anyway because that’s the most suggested, standard choice. Look at all the guides. Look at what people suggest. You are a human being, yes? I think you have a brain. You could have thought this out before you asked me that question. I don’t think you’re being very honest here, just asking pointless questions to avoid admitting the truth.

Why not replace all PvE gear with a single set that provides enough HP for noobs to learn and enough damage for veterans to speedrun, with some conditions included, while keeping WvW gear choices a matter of their own?

Dawnbreaker.6215:

maddoctor.2738:

Dawnbreaker.6215:

maddoctor.2738:

And found out the “meta” or “optimal” builds to run through content faster, because after 3 years of doing the same thing, you get bored of it. Finding faster (and easier) ways to do the runs is what theorycrafting we can do in a game that is supposed to be beaten with any set-up.

No one in this thread has said one kittening word against that. You can now stop answering things that have not been contested.

You did, remember?

Oh and don’t give me the “learning” argument bullkitten. Everyone and their mom can go straight to zerk and that’s exactly what happens in most cases. People get to level 80, ask in map chat what gear they should use, get told to use zerk and roll with it. Also, over 3 years most people have learnt their dungeons.

You answered yourself why people go straight to zerk and why they go zerk after hitting 80. And now that you say you don’t contest that, then what exactly is your problem? People found out that full zerker is the fastest way and since you have no problem with it, what exactly are you talking about over all the last posts in this thread?

If you agree with it let’s end the thread and be done with it already.

1. No I did not ever kittening contest that there is 1 build in this game that is the most efficient of all.

2. What I am talking about is since zerk is the most efficient then why do we have 23 choices? Seriously, do you even read what I am posting at all? I feel like I’m talking to someone who is deaf. More copy/pasta for you, bored of re-explaining:

Why not replace all PvE gear with a single set that provides enough HP for noobs to learn and enough damage for veterans to speedrun, with some conditions included, while keeping WvW gear choices a matter of their own?

“Zerker” is not a build, it’s a gear set, as explained billion times on this thread and others. If you want the most truly optimal composition for dungeons it goes like:

Full Berserker: 2 Elementalists (both Staff), 1 Thief, 1 Warrior (Phalanx Strength) and 1 Guardian with some variations of it. Also based on content

Isn’t it normal for any video game, after 3 years of theorycrafting and repeating the same content to find the most optimal / faster way of doing that content? Why isn’t this so hard to understand? So you already agree with why people choose this playstyle / build to do the content, it’s 3 year old, it’s faster/efficient etc

Then I’m asking again, if you know the reasons why this is the “optimal” thing, what exactly are you contesting? Out of 23 gear stats, one is more optimal/efficient than the others (not for all professions though) how shocking news, out of all sets players found out which one is more efficient than the others! All builds and party compositions can’t be equal for all pieces of content.

How to add “gear stats” in the above build composition. Let’s say that Assassin gear makes Conjures last longer, let’s say Sinister gear makes Stealth last longer, let’s say Knight’s gear makes might last longer, let’s say Cleric gear makes Concecrations last longer:

2 Assassin Elementalists, 1 Sinister Thief, 1 Knight Warrior, 1 Cleric Guardian, here, they do exactly what they now, Elementalists use frostbow for max dps, thieves use stealth to skip parts, warriors stack awesome might and guardians reflect projectiles, only to do this each one is using a different gear set instead of all of them using Berserker.

In the end is this any different? It’s the same playstyle/build as the Berserker one (how you play) only artificially there are gear requirements to be efficient. Is this really better?

And I already answered your bolded question:

Not one for sure, but certainly not 23. There are quite a few good gear sets and with some of the upcoming HOT changes in how conditions work and how certain traits give extra critical chance, perhaps Precision won’t be as important and Condition damage will be more viable. Less and better sets is better than an overflow of sets that most see no use at all.
As for more defensive gear (Tough/Vitality/Healing), I already answered that too. You can already do content in full Cleric or Nomad without even dodging, just using auto attacks. How is this “buff” on those gear sets going to work exactly, do you want those afkers to do the runs as fast as a zerker party?

Dawnbreaker.6215:

You’re ignoring the point of the question so, like I said, I’ll ask again, and again, and again:

Why not replace ALL PvE gear with a single set that provides enough HP for noobs to learn and enough damage for veterans to speedrun, with some conditions included, while keeping WvW gear choices a matter of their own?

This means REPLACE all gear. You know English? Remove zerk, remove nomads, remove the choices FROM PVE. Keep one all-in-one set similar to a combination of valkyrie and rampagers so that everyone is happy, noobs can learn, veterans can speedrun. What is your problem with that?

So just to check you don’t like most people using 1 stat type and your solution is to force that to be the case? You’re insane..

How can something be challenging while it gives noobs ‘enough hp to learn’? It’s completely contradictory.

I’ll give you an example: Soloing lupi on ele is challenging because he literally one shots you. In order to give a noob the opportunity to learn he’d need enough hp to survive getting one shotted by lupi → kills part of the challenge for the soloing ele. And if you want to be nitpicky, the same can be applied to group a setting. It’s already easy enough to kill lupi with a group, your suggestion would make it a snoozefest.

Also notice that my concern is not the reduction in damage I’ll suffer.

Dawnbreaker.6215:

2. What I am talking about is since zerk is the most efficient then why do we have 23 choices?

about point 2, it is for build diversity. just because something is efficient doesn’t meant everyone wants a homogenized game experience.

IMO not everyone wants to/can run a speed run setup. I know that scholar runes are the most dps, but I use strength runes because it is much easier for me to have the 5% bonus from might than keep my health above 90%. I also only pug dungeons so I rarely have a perfect guardian for their aegis/reflects.

maddoctor.2738:

“Zerker” is not a build, it’s a gear set, as explained billion times on this thread and others. If you want the most truly optimal composition for dungeons it goes like:

Full Berserker: 2 Elementalists (both Staff), 1 Thief, 1 Warrior (Phalanx Strength) and 1 Guardian with some variations of it. Also based on content

Its both .. in the end the “wrong traits” will cost you much more damage than using
the “wrong gear”.
At least if the “wrong gear” is something like knights, soldiers or even celestial and
not Nomads.

Beldin.5498:

Its always soooo funny when people ask for more enemy AI in trinity games.

Enemies beeing dumb as hell is the only reason that trinity works. If they are
not totally dumb they would simply kill the healer first, then the DDs, and
ignore the tank till the end.

And at that point any trinity game would suddenly be unplayable.

I still remember when the pre-expansion patch for WoD launched and we got a taste of the revamped Upper Blackrock Spire. Namely the third boss, Commander Tharbek. The fight begins with a gauntlet event with adds spawning and swarming the team. An upcoming boss observes from afar and gives commands to the trash. One of her calls is “Kill the one in the dress!” at which point the mobs turn on the healer. There were many deaths. Same thing happened back in Burning Crusade with O’mrogg who was immune to taunt and lashed out at party members at random.

Everything falls apart as soon as an NPC shows any sign of common sense or unpredictability which is what makes trinity rather trite on the long run. It may require more strategy or better organization than the system GW2 has but it’s boring!

maddoctor.2738:

Then I’m asking again, if you know the reasons why this is the “optimal” thing, what exactly are you contesting? Out of 23 gear stats, one is more optimal/efficient than the others (not for all professions though) how shocking news, out of all sets players found out which one is more efficient than the others! All builds and party compositions can’t be equal for all pieces of content.

I’m contesting the existence of the 22 others, and because you still haven’t understood it, you earn another copy/paste:

Why not replace all PvE gear with a single set that provides enough HP for noobs to learn and enough damage for veterans to speedrun, with some conditions included, while keeping WvW gear choices a matter of their own?

Also let’s make it clear that almost all noobs these days learn to play while using a zerk gear set. Your point that other gear sets need to be there for them to learn is completely and utterly invalid. You can just learn to play in easy dungeons and do Arah later.

Tea.7025:

Beldin.5498:

Its always soooo funny when people ask for more enemy AI in trinity games.

Enemies beeing dumb as hell is the only reason that trinity works. If they are
not totally dumb they would simply kill the healer first, then the DDs, and
ignore the tank till the end.

And at that point any trinity game would suddenly be unplayable.

I still remember when the pre-expansion patch for WoD launched and we got a taste of the revamped Upper Blackrock Spire. Namely the third boss, Commander Tharbek. The fight begins with a gauntlet event with adds spawning and swarming the team. An upcoming boss observes from afar and gives commands to the trash. One of her calls is “Kill the one in the dress!” at which point the mobs turn on the healer. There were many deaths. Same thing happened back in Burning Crusade with O’mrogg who was immune to taunt and lashed out at party members at random.

Everything falls apart as soon as an NPC shows any sign of common sense or unpredictability which is what makes trinity rather trite on the long run. It may require more strategy or better organization than the system GW2 has but it’s boring!

That’s still not “true” AI, it’s just a “skill” by the boss that switches the target of mobs. But of course the 2 major issues in GW2 that prevent some good AI are:
1) mobs can’t attack while moving so it’s hard to keep up with targets, even if they want to focus on the most threatening ones
2) mobs attack so slowly, if I recall mobs in GW2 “think” every 2 seconds which is way too short time to evaluate the threat of players around them

If they “fixed” these two problems though it might lead to more interesting encounters

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Wasted so much time writing walls of text for the likes of Harper and Farth Thungen that I’m not even gonna bother. It’s useless to play chess with a chicken, it will just knock down all the pieces and declare itself the winner.

All I have to say is this: regardless what concepts were originally in this game, the fact is there is a suggestion forum, the fact is Devs try to listen to players a minimum and the fact is that some things have changed since the start. This means that I am free to state my opinion about trinity being useful and I don’t need to go to another game to pursue having it set in place.

The fact is that there’s 25 armor sets in game and only one is prominently used. And before you say “PvP” again, I will remind you that this discussion is about PvE, stop trying to change the topic.

The fact is that while you like your no-trinity nonsense, even for a no-trinity this game is very poorly balanced when it comes to meta. The meta lacks diveristy (I do not care if you personally don’t like diversity, you can’t claim this game was advertised as anti-diversity when there’s all these armor stats and traits). I’m not a game dev so it’s not my job to figure out how, but I’m sure they can work out a way to balance this. If Nexon has managed to do so with Vindictus (by not having gear stat choice to begin with) then I’m sure Anet can figure something out as well.

And yeah if there’s a new meta, I will immediately jump into it and then flame whatever zerk tryhards still wouldn’t have switched, even if they were few, because I’m sure that not all of them will switch over immediately. I’m sure many of them would try to keep their thing going for as long as possible.

Sure mate – take the easy way out.

Make statements – have them contested by others with arguments and just like you did in the last thread nicely run away when you’ve got nothing left to say than the same things you’ve been blindly repeating forever.

Don’t bother trying to prove me wrong – we both know you can’t – just please stop posting the same stuff – it’s just tiresome to read.
If you want to defend or promote a certain thing – go for it – but don’t just start and when you’re confronted with arguments back out and call it quits.

I’ve lost all respect.
Take care.

Dawnbreaker.6215:

maddoctor.2738:

Shows clearly you don’t know much about the meta. When I play my Thief I may switch builds nearly 11 times (counting going back too) during an Arah P1 run. When I run my Guardian in fractals (depends on fractal) I will change my build numerous times too. How is that for diversity? Have you ever played a Guardian / Thief in any kind of high end PVE to see how many times you ARE EXPECTED by the “meta” to change your build to adopt a new playstyle and completely change how you play?

Strawman. This discussion is about gear and you know it. Don’t try to change the topic.

I can’t see the freedom of gear builds happening anywhere, when 90% of the community is running zerker and demanding zerker in dungeons.

What we want is for the “zerk meta” announcements in LFG to be gone and for condition builds, off-tanks, tanks, healers and such to be viable.

You say that you are anti trinity but really what happens in this game isn’t that you completely removed trinity. You have nukers, tanks and healers in the trinity setup. Here in GW2 what happened is that you removed the tanks and healers, and kept the nukers. So congrats, GW2 is running on 1/3rd of the trinity.

And AGAIN, before you jump in and start strawmaning about traits, skills and abilities, we are talking about GEAR, in PVE, and nothing else here.

What you want is not what this game is. Everything you stated above is viable.
It is not optimal – you will never see posts on the lfg that aren’t in their majority looking for things that are optimal.

Also the fact that you haven’t realized that GW2 didn’t remove the trinity and just leave the nukers but compressed all 3 into each character is hilarious.

You are doing your own healing and tanking while you dps. You are independent but at the same time play all 3 roles yourself. How is that hard to understand?