Guild Wars 2

MatthewMedina.5419:

SkiTz.4590:

You want to retain players? that’s not going to help. No one is going to keep playing this game because of the early levels…every MMORPG maker knows that endgame is how you retain players, not the early stages that get completed in less than a week…. so for the 10000th time, please work on a CONTENT PATCH FOR VETERANS. thats how you get new players to commit to this game and stay commited…. not by this pointless NPE.

I want to clarify one point I’ve been seeing expressed. This is one type of retention. There’s another type of retention where new players try the game and churn out before they even get to the point where they’re seeing the potential the game has to offer. Yes, a certain amount of people will just do that; they’ll log in to see what it’s about, have their curiosity satisfied, and move on. But we were seeing a lot of places where people who would otherwise have become active users were churning out prematurely because of the issues that we’re addressing with the NPE.

As Colin stated above, we can’t talk in detail about the ongoing development to drive retention for our veteran players, but I just wanted to make the point that the NPE was deliberately designed to address the early game retention issues, and ensure that Guild Wars 2 can benefit from a strong and steady influx of new players into the game.

I understand what you’re saying about people just jumping on and making assumptions based on first impressions. I am one of those people. But the first impression the game gave previously is far better than the first impression it gives now. I only bought the game 4 months ago and I played almost every day for like 12 hours per day after I bought it. My plan was to level a character of each profession to level 80 to see which one has to offer. When I heard there was going to be a new levelling system, I decided to wait to try it before starting my third character. When I tried it, I hated it. I was extremely excited about levelling my character with this new system, but I couldn’t bring myself to get past level 5. I haven’t played the game in 2 days. I’ve gone back to games I thought I would never go back to because they just didn’t make the cut for me. I understand what you’re trying to do, but this is definitely the wrong way to do it. A better way would be to make a tutorial that gives a glimpse of everything the game has to offer. That way it doesn’t make the game feel any slower and it doesn’t affect people who just want to play new characters. The levelling experience was fine before, and I understand wanting to make it feel more rewarding as well. But instead of locking features to use as rewards, why not give items as rewards? Perhaps items related to whatever they unlocked. The early levels could give harvesting tools or salvage kits, since I know I went through a ton of those early on. The mid-levels could give choices of weapons, armor, or dye, since when I played my first character I loved getting new weapons and armor, and I was obsessed with making my character look good. Then the higher levels could give maybe some gold, higher tier crafting materials, or more dye. That would be way more rewarding than just locking features behind level requirements, and everyone would be much happier. Or you could sell scrolls in the starting zones that give you 10 levels for around 5-10 gold each. That would add another money sink to the game and most people who are levelling alts have enough gold to get their character to around level 40+.

anzenketh.3759:

munkiman.3068:

anzenketh.3759:

munkiman.3068:

Can you tell us if the missing off the map POIs and Vistas are intended or bugs?

What about the skill point challenges? Are those meant to be locked out as well?

If it is a bug it would be something that should be a account-wide unlock. Because well obviously a level 80 already knows about them so no point on hiding it from them.

I’m also curious about the wardrobe, as i noticed (not on my toons, but others) that is also locked out early on. I wonder if that is intended as well?

Can’t confirm right now but I believe my level 11 I started just to try out the NPE was able to access the wardrobe. I could see this being a bug if it is not account-wide unlocked.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

I am having a very hard time believing that “entertaining cows” was the proper solution for players that found “pick up food, give to cow” confusing.

This is only the case during the first few levels. The poor cows got the short end of the stick they may starve but will will be plenty entertained.

It was not that picking up something and feeding it to the cow was confusing. It was that the players skills were replaced while a player was learning the new skills. I personally think a better option for feeding the cow was to treat it as a collector event not a environmental weapon. Perhaps it can’t be a collector event as it is a heart.

Hmm. I noticed last night that there’s a been a ‘change of heart’ over in Metric Province with Researcher Kaii. Used to be you could play as a golem and do the stuff needed for this particular heart, but now the heart guy assigns a golem to you which follows you and does the stuff when you press F (repair, disrupt).

Tyops.5894:

ColinJohanson.2394:

- There are bugs! We’ve seen the content direction system (the little arrow) pointing people at super high level maps when it shouldn’t, some systems/features not unlocking as intended for all characters on your account once your first learns them, some systems level gated that aren’t intended to be, balance issues where certain levels appear to be very out of whack, etc. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, our team is working to figure out what happened here and fix these as quickly as possible.

That isn’t just this patch. That happens every patch.

I dont think I remember a single patch (big or small) coming out without bugs and that didnt unintentionally break other aspects of the game. Often new bugs are introduced and other times there are unintended consequences that could easily have been spotted/predicted with a bare minimum of testing.

There is unambiguously a QA issue with your process. This reflects poorly on the game and casts doubt in your ability to realise future projects.

For instance, when the megaserver was announced I had absolutely no expectation that it would be working as described/intended, and it wasnt. 5 months and a whole feature pack later and we have entirely new preposterous bugs (i.e., join missing).

We aren’t your beta test.

Please take a long look at your QA process.

every game I’ve ever played including thigns like D3, WoW, PWI, SWTOR, ArcheAge(korean),Warframe and even single player games like Torchlight, The Sims, etc have all had bugs every. single. patch. Some of them seriously screwed up bugs that make certain things unplayable. Simple fact is you cannot test for a live environment no matter how you try. There will always be bugs in any code of any game. Some are easy fixes and some are not. Just do alittle research into any games update forums and see all the bugs.

D3, WoW have PTRs and they test for MONTHS in advance and still have sometimes game breaking bugs. D3 is dealing with a fine collection of them from their recent patch =/

TL;DR – Bugs on Live is not a GW2 Problem, its a Gaming Problem that is not easily solved, even by QA/PTRs.

Just wrote a long post about how much I like the new player experience, all the reasons and how I made a new character to test it… and then the log-in token is outdated and all writing is gone.

So a quick TL;DR: I personally feel that the NPE is also fun for veteran players, leveling is much faster in the early stages and feels much more rewarding because of all the loot you can use and the collections. The latest patches were really good (Drytop, reward structure (geodes), collections,…) and I see a bright future for the game.

Heads up to the devs responsible, don’t get frustrated about “the internet” reactions too much, just a few loud voices and people who love jumping bandwagons. I (veteran player since early beta) have tried the first levels yesterday and loved it.

Also I have to say: the thing I’m most disappointed in is the community. Never seen so much bandwagoners before, it’s really really sad.

Tachenon.5270:

anzenketh.3759:

munkiman.3068:

anzenketh.3759:

munkiman.3068:

Can you tell us if the missing off the map POIs and Vistas are intended or bugs?

What about the skill point challenges? Are those meant to be locked out as well?

If it is a bug it would be something that should be a account-wide unlock. Because well obviously a level 80 already knows about them so no point on hiding it from them.

I’m also curious about the wardrobe, as i noticed (not on my toons, but others) that is also locked out early on. I wonder if that is intended as well?

Can’t confirm right now but I believe my level 11 I started just to try out the NPE was able to access the wardrobe. I could see this being a bug if it is not account-wide unlocked.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

I am having a very hard time believing that “entertaining cows” was the proper solution for players that found “pick up food, give to cow” confusing.

This is only the case during the first few levels. The poor cows got the short end of the stick they may starve but will will be plenty entertained.

It was not that picking up something and feeding it to the cow was confusing. It was that the players skills were replaced while a player was learning the new skills. I personally think a better option for feeding the cow was to treat it as a collector event not a environmental weapon. Perhaps it can’t be a collector event as it is a heart.

Hmm. I noticed last night that there’s a been a ‘change of heart’ over in Metric Province with Researcher Kaii. Used to be you could play as a golem and do the stuff needed for this particular heart, but now the heart guy assigns a golem to you which follows you and does the stuff when you press F (repair, disrupt).

A few of the very low level hearts > level 6 have had their functions changed because bundle items, and other functions were moved up to higher leveled areas and taken from the lower ones. To give played the chance to learn what they have at their disposal before getting things like environmental weapons. They aren’t gone long at all.

ColinJohanson.2394:

Hey folks,

1. I can tell you what happend. you uploaded and aweful feature patch. reroll and everything is fine.

2. JPs and dodging has been teasted by the community itself hours ago. we talking about diving goggles, skill challanges, weapon and utility skill beeing level gated like a asian hardcore gind MMO. return it to pre patch and all is good.

3. WHY was it necassary to even lower ep requirments anyway? give as reward more ep if you wanted to speed up the levling. i mean you also made new hearts quests to give the extra bonus XP why over doin it by lowering the requirments? then you wouldn´t have to even touch any skills and atunments.

4. AND the reward messages was enough. you over did it again. You could have easily jsut added a reward message in the old system just to bette rpoint they unlocked a skillwhen they kiled enough mobs. there was NO need to lock them, none at all.

And NO i didn´t earn ym wepaons kill around 10 or 20 minutes in after leveling, even back then as a GW2 i learned quickly i could unlock all weapons skill by hitting stuff. and i did it under a minute. this is impossible now with level locking. sorry you have not hit you goal.

5. rewards as in weapons armor or trinkets yes! not skills for somethign we had as i stated before in elss then a minute.
Also the content direction system MIGHT be encouraging how ever it leads to another problem, new palyers won´t look their environmet. I grantee there will be a number of new comers complainig about how thecontent direction system led them to a flase point of interest, while not under standing they have past a ramp to go up or downwards at some point. Enhancing the OLD system would have been better, by just let the point and visata be visable on the map even when not discovered, I mean skill challanges ar epointed out aswell and are even mentioned in the first scout map view. Add points of interest and vistas there and new comers will find their own way.

6. with what kind of people did you tested that? No im not goin below the belt here or point at any ethnic groups or something. BUT my guess is you tested it with people who were actually not interested in MMOs in the first place. Asoon i donw want to show interest into something, then playing it will only cause these results since there were not willing to learn at all. And us palyers two years ago had no problem either to adapt from GW1 to GW2, because we were willing to learn the new mechanics and play the game. If THIS feature pack was the result of a study with test people, then i can fairly assume those tester didn´t like MMOs in general and even the promise of an MMO not like other MMOs wouldn´t have changed their mind either.
You basicly doin what runes scape did few years ago, this MMO tried similar tactics, trying to cater to the mysterious not reach audience. they failed and lost good 70% off their user base during that time, and only after many back paddles the biggest bunch off players returned.
And believe me this will happen with GW2 aswell if nothing changes.
However i doubt you would inform us correctly, you wouldn´t even tell us anything. I actually believe you will say that it completly work and that everyone is happy while in this forum and in game people still complain about it in masses.
This is not a unabsed assumption, it´s the conclusion of the expirience with Anets rather shoddy communication with their player base.
If here would have been one we the palyers might have given you better options to teach newcomers better, and would have reached a Mega-Man x intro stage level: all basic stuff (weapons skill and the old utility and elite levels, and the F -skills) avilable from the very first secound. and then let the player learn their basics in an controlled environment.
thats not given ATM. its just: Level 3 new shiny things.

7. THAT should have been the focus in this feature patch.

PS. it would be nice if we would get ALL of the personaly story in their proper order. People liked the “greatest fear” arc. some even claims it to be the best. specialy since we lost jsut revently our mentor from our order.

Colin in all i appritiate your intentions, but jsut as with any other recent center of any topic atmmoment in socialmedia and games you ahd the wrong approch. And in this case it even failed hard allready, even if you don´t it did.

With all the complaints about utilities/elites/etc being moved by several levels, has anyone even bothered to calculate what it used to be vs what it is now in terms of time?

I only went up to 10, but those levels are basically handed to you now. Originally, levels were supposed to be normalized and take roughly 1 hour each, though 1-15ish was always less. Considering 1-10 is like 30 minutes now, doesn’t it even out? If hearts continue to reward more experience like the early level ones, is it not even faster?

Paradox.1380:

D3, WoW have PTRs and they test for MONTHS in advance and still have sometimes game breaking bugs. D3 is dealing with a fine collection of them from their recent patch =/

TL;DR – Bugs on Live is not a GW2 Problem, its a Gaming Problem that is not easily solved, even by QA/PTRs.

First: GW2 is easily one of the worst offenders among the games that I’ve played both in the egregiousness of bugs and in how easy it would have been to spot the unintended ripples.

Second: The difficulty of testing for live doesn’t make this anymore acceptable to players.

Healix.5819:

With all the complaints about utilities/elites/etc being moved by several levels, has anyone even bothered to calculate what it used to be vs what it is now in terms of time?

I only went up to 10, but those levels are basically handed to you now. Originally, levels were supposed to be normalized and take roughly 1 hour each, though 1-15ish was always less. Considering 1-10 is like 30 minutes now, doesn’t it even out? If hearts continue to reward more experience like the early level ones, is it not even faster?

well i got all my weapons skill under ONE minutes, two at max if im lazy. so does anybody else.

Infernia.9847:

Diving goggles seem to have been level locked. -Another thread with in-game screenshot.
And forgive me if this has been asked but my lvl 34 Mesmer needs to know if she’ll have to spend more skill points a second time to unlock the elite skills that were already unlocked but are now gone until lvl40.

Not sure if this was addressed but from what I’ve found the Elite skill still works if you had it prior to patch but you can’t change it if you’re below 40. I have two 30ish characters and both can use the skill currently active but can’t switch it out.

Peace.

Edit: it was addressed I just didn’t see it. Carry on.

Nick.6972:

Why did it take two days to clarify that there are "bugs’ in this new system?

They didn’t. Colin posted yesterday.

Paradox.1380:

A few of the very low level hearts > level 6 have had their functions changed because bundle items, and other functions were moved up to higher leveled areas and taken from the lower ones. To give played the chance to learn what they have at their disposal before getting things like environmental weapons. They aren’t gone long at all.

It’s a pointless and stupid change. When you do those early hearts you have what now, two skills?! You’re seriously telling me IT WAS TOO HARD to understand that you feed a cow by picking up a bag of feed? This was difficult to learn how?

It’s no easier to learn now either. In fact it may be harder. Instead of the first heart having bundles (and introducing them) they are held back. So people who play are now going to understand that all you do is press F on things, then at level 8 or 9 when they actually have to go back to doing things they’ll be just as confused.

Of course in actuality no one will be confused by any of this, because most people are not pants on head kittened. If they wake up in the morning and dress themselves without burning their house down they can kitten well feed a motherkittening cow.

MatthewMedina.5419:

SkiTz.4590:

You want to retain players? that’s not going to help. No one is going to keep playing this game because of the early levels…every MMORPG maker knows that endgame is how you retain players, not the early stages that get completed in less than a week…. so for the 10000th time, please work on a CONTENT PATCH FOR VETERANS. thats how you get new players to commit to this game and stay commited…. not by this pointless NPE.

I want to clarify one point I’ve been seeing expressed. This is one type of retention. There’s another type of retention where new players try the game and churn out before they even get to the point where they’re seeing the potential the game has to offer. Yes, a certain amount of people will just do that; they’ll log in to see what it’s about, have their curiosity satisfied, and move on. But we were seeing a lot of places where people who would otherwise have become active users were churning out prematurely because of the issues that we’re addressing with the NPE.

As Colin stated above, we can’t talk in detail about the ongoing development to drive retention for our veteran players, but I just wanted to make the point that the NPE was deliberately designed to address the early game retention issues, and ensure that Guild Wars 2 can benefit from a strong and steady influx of new players into the game.

I’m not one for forum posting, i think it’s useless. But this thread has got me biting. I’ve been playing GW2 from the pre release and in total only not logged in for 2-3 days in the time it’s been released. I’m a WvW player there is nothing in PVe that is of intrest any more. I’ve done every dungeon there is to do and i have managed to kill every Dragon there is in the world more times than i have cared to count. The end game is poor. It has taken way to long to bring out content for veteran players. To be honest this last patch is an insult to vet players, The levelling system was fine for us so it would be fine for new players. I think the time has come to quickly satisfy the vets out there. Bare in mind us vets, were here for a long time and we feel pushed aside. Take us WvW players, from day 1 till now we have the same maps. granted we have EOTM but thats not really WvW as it doesn’t help with points only serves for lower tier servers to have fights. Now we have coloured tags, wow. I guess that makes a difference. For the simplicity of including account bound and colours this could have implemented months earlier. Apologies for the rant, but i think more should be doen to keep vets.

How about you put this “retention for new players” theory to the test. Do a trial weekend. Do this NOT during one of your 50% off sales. Then make it public knowledge the metrics of new players vs the number of players who played the trial. I would LOVE to see these “metrics” you insist drove you to these god awful changes proven in practical use.

Tyops.5894:

Paradox.1380:

D3, WoW have PTRs and they test for MONTHS in advance and still have sometimes game breaking bugs. D3 is dealing with a fine collection of them from their recent patch =/

TL;DR – Bugs on Live is not a GW2 Problem, its a Gaming Problem that is not easily solved, even by QA/PTRs.

First: GW2 is easily one of the worst offenders among the games that I’ve played both in the egregiousness of bugs and in how easy it would have been to spot the unintended ripples.

Second: The difficulty of testing for live doesn’t make this anymore acceptable to players.

Heh, No GW2 is not the worst offender. D3 makes me cry at times with how botched their crap can be and there are STILL bugs that were found week 1 of PTR for the 2.1 update…. The Update is live now and bugs still there bad ones, really bad ones that make whole parts of the game unplayable (Grift Density I’m looking at you). Anyway I use just using it as a point that is not a GW2 problem is a gaming in general problem I’m not gonna talk about other games anymore because I don’t want infractions.

Alright, gating is not meant to cripple alts, only to make things less overwhelming for casual noobies, we get it. Whether that can work or not remains to be seen.

Now can we get some clarification on just what the everloving heck happened to the personal story and the Greatest Fear missions?? What is actually interesting is that one of my characters had the Battle of Fort Trinity coming up next when the update came. I completed that mission with him, and now my next one is still Liberating Apatia, so these missions are still there for those folks who had already started that arc, apparently.

Anyway, please just clarify whether the personal story also got messed up because of the grouping of missions being botched. I really do not want to believe you guys at Arenanet would take something out of the original story (which we actually payed for when we bought the game, mind you) that has been canon for two years and has been absolutely integral to the development of our characters. It’s a Role Playing Game, after all. Can you please confirm that this is a bug as well?

I understand the need for some changes to the NPE (I’ve had friends from GW1 not even stick with the game long enough to get to level 80 because they just weren’t enjoying the early parts). But I do question the shift in game direction. Previously there has been a big push towards the idea that fun doesn’t begin at end-game and that the entire game is end-game type content. With the elite skill not unlocking until the leveling process is halfway over, it seems like the early levels really are just a training grounds now. What are the intentions here?

Colin,

just wanted to jump in and say thank you for saying what you said. While I still have a very negative impression of the changes in leveling system, and still a very skeptic view on metrics you’re talking about, publicly admitting problems and publicly defending your reasoning goes a long way from the grieving silence of the 1st Feature Patch. I really hope that admitted problems get fixed and not just admitted and left for good, and I wished that reasoning had more official data for us, the community, to analyze and believe in… but I also understand that formal policies put a lot of limits on what can and should be said.

Highlights of my view on the leveling changes:

Best:

• Rewards. Rewards are always good, but only if they’re something new, not if that’s something you take away from someone and then present as a “reward” back. So, a trinket or a booster is a good reward; unlocking downed skills is a bad reward.

Worst:

• Weapon skill gating. Learning skills for each weapon one by one was the most intuitive, best and exciting feature when I got this game – and I never played a serious RPG or an MMO before! I killed mobs and searched for events to kill more to check what that next half-learned skill with a cool name did… then I searched for new weapons and did it again, because it was fun, and fun is the best reward I can get from a game. This should definitely be brought back.

My personal “fix-it-fast-and-make-it-better”:

• Stop calling “Asura Gates”, “Trading Post” and other core features “rewards”! That’s a very large part of that widespread misconception. Instead, turn them into hints and clearly name them as such, even if it stays in the same reward pop-up; like, “HINT: Trading Posts are now displayed on your minimap! You can do X and Y with them! Check it out if you haven’t done so yet!”, not “You have unlocked Trading Post, yay!”

ColinJohanson.2394:

SkiTz.4590:

Colin, just clear up one thing – There is 0% chance EU/NA GW2 gets a VIP system?

We’re absolutely not bringing the China VIP system to NA/EU, correct.

Are you also absolutely not bringing the NA/EU VIP system to NA/EU?

Swizzle.7982:

Paradox.1380:

A few of the very low level hearts > level 6 have had their functions changed because bundle items, and other functions were moved up to higher leveled areas and taken from the lower ones. To give played the chance to learn what they have at their disposal before getting things like environmental weapons. They aren’t gone long at all.

It’s a pointless and stupid change. When you do those early hearts you have what now, two skills?! You’re seriously telling me IT WAS TOO HARD to understand that you feed a cow by picking up a bag of feed? This was difficult to learn how?

It’s no easier to learn now either. In fact it may be harder. Instead of the first heart having bundles (and introducing them) they are held back. So people who play are now going to understand that all you do is press F on things, then at level 8 or 9 when they actually have to go back to doing things they’ll be just as confused.

Of course in actuality no one will be confused by any of this, because most people are not pants on head kittened. If they wake up in the morning and dress themselves without burning their house down they can kitten well feed a motherkittening cow.

I’m not saying anything, I was just explaining what happened. My opinion no one wants to hear on the subject so I purposefully didn’t PUT my opinion in my post. All I did was explain the change because someone asked about the change to the heart quest.

I don’t work for the game don’t jump down MY throat about it.

Besides you’re barking up the wrong tree with this because I actually LIKE most of the changes that were implemented (and yes I tried em out for myself).

butch.8136:

Nick.6972:

Why did it take two days to clarify that there are "bugs’ in this new system?

They didn’t. Colin posted yesterday.

Both Colin and Regina posted about it yesterday.

ColinJohanson.2394:

Anyway as for level 80 this is a post about new player experience specifically, not level 80 stuff. There is a great CDI going on right now about guilds in (and more coming soon) where you can help give feedback on what you’d like to see the level 80 guild experience be in particular!

Most of the feedback is from people who have at least one level 80 character and are making alts, or rather not making them anymore due to the “new player experience”. There needs to be a different leveling system for veteran players. You guys are skirting around this distinctive feedback, in which many people are asking or requesting whether this will remain just for truly new players or is this kind of gating something veterans have to deal with every time they want to make an alt.

maybe they should gate the Trading Post until level 50 as well.

anzenketh.3759:

Diving goggles are accessible at or before level 11. Lions Arch is level 35.

This doesn’t seem particularly relevant, as since there are no longer hostiles in Lion’s Arch you can waltz in there with a level 2 character with no problems.

Tyops.5894:

First: GW2 is easily one of the worst offenders among the games that I’ve played both in the egregiousness of bugs and in how easy it would have been to spot the unintended ripples.

Paradox.1380:

Heh, No GW2 is not the worst offender. D3 makes me cry at times with how botched their crap can be and there are STILL bugs that were found week 1 of PTR for the 2.1 update….

I don’t know why you assume I have familiarity with that game, or why you believe that bad bugs in that game makes this more acceptable. Industry-wide issue or not, this just isn’t an acceptable standard.

When it’s so bad that the buggy nature is being picked up by the press, it definitely doesn’t help create a positive image of the game (i.e., attract new players) and as such hinders it’s long term viability.

It’s a big big problem.

I think the fundamental issue is ANet went 100% after new player metrics with blinders on. They completely ignored retaining current players. No common sense was applied. ANet implemented changes anywhere they saw a blip uptick from focus groups with new players and players that don’t like the game anyways. They made a mad dash after it without any contemplation of the effects on the current devoted user base.

I think if Anet doesn’t fix their fundamental issues, the game is doomed anyways. This strategy was doomed to fail from the beginning. They need to make systemic organizational changes to rescue GW2.

There were ~50 pages of complaints over 4+ months about the new horrible trait acquisition system. No significant fix is in sight. The problems with the Feature Pack just compound the idea that ANet has fundamental issues. It makes me sad. I loved GW2 the way it was before the new trait system. I am falling out of love with GW2. Like it or not, new players see the fallout with the vets.

Sokia.3710:

anzenketh.3759:

Diving goggles are accessible at or before level 11. Lions Arch is level 35.

This doesn’t seem particularly relevant, as since there are no longer hostiles in Lion’s Arch you can waltz in there with a level 2 character with no problems.

But it is the fact that you can at level 2 is irrelevant as most people (especially first time players) will not. The veterans that do already know about diving goggles. But that is irrelevant as the concern was regarding new players anyways.

Odeezee.7362:

Carbon Footprint.3421:

A quote from the Forbes website on customer retention:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/alexlawrence/2012/11/01/five-customer-retention-tips-for-entrepreneurs/

“Never Underestimate the Value of Retention

For those who feel that customer retention plays a relatively minor role in helping a company grow a healthy bottom line, here are a few statistics you might be interested in. According to Bain and Co., a 5% increase in customer retention can increase a company’s profitability by 75%. And if those numbers don’t impress you, Gartner Group statistics tell us that 80% of your company’s future revenue will come from just 20% of your existing customers. Still not sold on customer retention? One final statistic provided by Lee Resource Inc. should give you plenty to think about: Attracting new customers will cost your company 5 times more than keeping an existing customer."

Just sayin’

no one is arguing that ANet should not retain customers, what people such as myself are saying is that ANet are going after the WRONG people to retain first (non-existent/brand new players) and not their current customers.

This is probably not something you want to hear but from a business point of view ArenaNet is probably going for the correct group of people. I don’t know how your situation is but I spend much more on gems in my first year than I did in the second year. And the same goes for a lot of my friends. So making sure new players stay in the game long enough that they start buying gems makes more sense business wise than entertaining the veterans who don’t buy gems any more.

The problem with veterans not buying gems is something ArenaNet should address in a different way. But you are probably aware that ArenaNet does not want to do that. And they probably have the numbers to back that up. I guess the current pricing is more profitable. I don’t like it (the gem situation and the focus on new players), but that is what it is.

ColinJohanson.2394:

Hey folks… <SNIP>.

Thanks for taking your time and getting back to the community. It’s very appreciated that you folks are already looking at the most problematic issues.

Keep up the good work.

Tyops.5894:

Tyops.5894:

First: GW2 is easily one of the worst offenders among the games that I’ve played both in the egregiousness of bugs and in how easy it would have been to spot the unintended ripples.

Paradox.1380:

Heh, No GW2 is not the worst offender. D3 makes me cry at times with how botched their crap can be and there are STILL bugs that were found week 1 of PTR for the 2.1 update….

I don’t know why you assume I have familiarity with that game, or why you believe that bad bugs in that game makes this more acceptable. Industry-wide issue or not, this just isn’t an acceptable standard.

When it’s so bad that the buggy nature is being picked up by the press, it definitely doesn’t help create a positive image of the game (i.e., attract new players) and as such hinders it’s long term viability.

It’s a big big problem.

Well D3 is the largest ARPG on teh market with well over 3 Million copies sold? I dont’ assume anything I was simply making a point that GW2 is NOT the only game with problems, its not the only AAA title with problems..

I never said it was right, but that’s just the way it is and there is almost nothing they can do to fix it. The fact of the matter is you CANNOT possibly test for the live environment enough to stop all bugs (big or small) from making it into the live patch. Its just not possible. All they can do is hunt the bugs and fix them after they’ve happened.

Maybe someday a company will come up with a way to make all things technology/code related ship without bugs.. but until that day why should I complain about bugs? At least they are aware they exist and are working on them. You can ask for more all you like but its simply not plausible.

Edit: Changed Any bugs to All Bugs for better clarification to what I actually meant because there is plenty of bugs that get squashed in QA testing but never ALL bugs.

Rose Solane.1027:

Odeezee.7362:

Carbon Footprint.3421:

A quote from the Forbes website on customer retention:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/alexlawrence/2012/11/01/five-customer-retention-tips-for-entrepreneurs/

“Never Underestimate the Value of Retention

For those who feel that customer retention plays a relatively minor role in helping a company grow a healthy bottom line, here are a few statistics you might be interested in. According to Bain and Co., a 5% increase in customer retention can increase a company’s profitability by 75%. And if those numbers don’t impress you, Gartner Group statistics tell us that 80% of your company’s future revenue will come from just 20% of your existing customers. Still not sold on customer retention? One final statistic provided by Lee Resource Inc. should give you plenty to think about: Attracting new customers will cost your company 5 times more than keeping an existing customer."

Just sayin’

no one is arguing that ANet should not retain customers, what people such as myself are saying is that ANet are going after the WRONG people to retain first (non-existent/brand new players) and not their current customers.

This is probably not something you want to hear but from a business point of view ArenaNet is probably going for the correct group of people. I don’t know how your situation is but I spend much more on gems in my first year than I did in the second year. And the same goes for a lot of my friends. So making sure new players stay in the game long enough that they start buying gems makes more sense business wise than entertaining the veterans who don’t buy gems any more.

The problem with veterans not buying gems is something ArenaNet should address in a different way. But you are probably aware that ArenaNet does not want to do that. And they probably have the numbers to back that up. I guess the current pricing is more profitable. I don’t like it (the gem situation and the focus on new players), but that is what it is.

I just started playing 4 months ago. After my first month, I spent around $100 on gems. I was planning to spend another $150 on gems this week, but after the levelling changes I quit playing altogether. They are doing the opposite of what they thought they were doing.

Resubian.5823:

Rose Solane.1027:

Odeezee.7362:

Carbon Footprint.3421:

A quote from the Forbes website on customer retention:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/alexlawrence/2012/11/01/five-customer-retention-tips-for-entrepreneurs/

“Never Underestimate the Value of Retention

For those who feel that customer retention plays a relatively minor role in helping a company grow a healthy bottom line, here are a few statistics you might be interested in. According to Bain and Co., a 5% increase in customer retention can increase a company’s profitability by 75%. And if those numbers don’t impress you, Gartner Group statistics tell us that 80% of your company’s future revenue will come from just 20% of your existing customers. Still not sold on customer retention? One final statistic provided by Lee Resource Inc. should give you plenty to think about: Attracting new customers will cost your company 5 times more than keeping an existing customer."

Just sayin’

no one is arguing that ANet should not retain customers, what people such as myself are saying is that ANet are going after the WRONG people to retain first (non-existent/brand new players) and not their current customers.

This is probably not something you want to hear but from a business point of view ArenaNet is probably going for the correct group of people. I don’t know how your situation is but I spend much more on gems in my first year than I did in the second year. And the same goes for a lot of my friends. So making sure new players stay in the game long enough that they start buying gems makes more sense business wise than entertaining the veterans who don’t buy gems any more.

The problem with veterans not buying gems is something ArenaNet should address in a different way. But you are probably aware that ArenaNet does not want to do that. And they probably have the numbers to back that up. I guess the current pricing is more profitable. I don’t like it (the gem situation and the focus on new players), but that is what it is.

I just started playing 4 months ago. After my first month, I spent around $100 on gems. I was planning to spend another $150 on gems this week, but after the levelling changes I quit playing altogether. They are doing the opposite of what they thought they were doing.

You started playing 4 months ago, before this change, so I don’t think you classify as a new player.

I fail to see how the current system is meant to retain players when 90% of new Mesmers will outright quit after dying for the billionth time in a personal story instance that was balanced around them having actual skills to use.

johnnyfiveaces.4712:

I fail to see how the current system is meant to retain players when 90% of new Mesmers will outright quit after dying for the billionth time in a personal story instance that was balanced around them having actual skills to use.

Give it time. Maybe I’m wrong but I took Colin’s post to mean that they’re going to be scaling back the level-gating. Hopefully for mesmers that means shatter skills and utilities will be available for personal stories earlier than previously

@Devs: Thanks for the updates.

To me it seems as though there are a few little problems causing bigger problems which everyone is going nutso about.

- Change some of the hearts back. Dancing for cows is silly.
- Have the content guide respect your level. It should never send you to something significantly above your level.
- Sort out these locking issues. Maybe publish a list of features that should be account-locked and which should be character-locked so that people calm down, because some of this opaqueness going away wouldn’t hurt. They should also probably be trimmed from the level-up if you’ve already unlocked them.
- Make sure that the expected leveling curve is actually the expected leveling curve.
- Change the utility unlocks to 11, 16 and 22. IDK when exactly, but they should stay in the same curve as they were before.
- Knock the elite skill back down to 30, because I don’t like change.

IDK about all this metric stuff, but the OPE doesn’t need to get thrown under the bus for the NPE, and some simple changes would fix that.

[quote=4397183;MatthewMedina.5419:]

“I’ll just kill right now that this is a system developed for China”

did you mean that this system isn’t just developed for China?

Selene.9415:

Resubian.5823:

Rose Solane.1027:

Odeezee.7362:

Carbon Footprint.3421:

A quote from the Forbes website on customer retention:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/alexlawrence/2012/11/01/five-customer-retention-tips-for-entrepreneurs/

“Never Underestimate the Value of Retention

For those who feel that customer retention plays a relatively minor role in helping a company grow a healthy bottom line, here are a few statistics you might be interested in. According to Bain and Co., a 5% increase in customer retention can increase a company’s profitability by 75%. And if those numbers don’t impress you, Gartner Group statistics tell us that 80% of your company’s future revenue will come from just 20% of your existing customers. Still not sold on customer retention? One final statistic provided by Lee Resource Inc. should give you plenty to think about: Attracting new customers will cost your company 5 times more than keeping an existing customer."

Just sayin’

no one is arguing that ANet should not retain customers, what people such as myself are saying is that ANet are going after the WRONG people to retain first (non-existent/brand new players) and not their current customers.

This is probably not something you want to hear but from a business point of view ArenaNet is probably going for the correct group of people. I don’t know how your situation is but I spend much more on gems in my first year than I did in the second year. And the same goes for a lot of my friends. So making sure new players stay in the game long enough that they start buying gems makes more sense business wise than entertaining the veterans who don’t buy gems any more.

The problem with veterans not buying gems is something ArenaNet should address in a different way. But you are probably aware that ArenaNet does not want to do that. And they probably have the numbers to back that up. I guess the current pricing is more profitable. I don’t like it (the gem situation and the focus on new players), but that is what it is.

I just started playing 4 months ago. After my first month, I spent around $100 on gems. I was planning to spend another $150 on gems this week, but after the levelling changes I quit playing altogether. They are doing the opposite of what they thought they were doing.

You started playing 4 months ago, before this change, so I don’t think you classify as a new player.

And if this change had been in place before I started playing? I would have read about it and watched gameplay videos of how boring the levelling is and I wouldn’t have bought the game at all.

Personally, I’m conflicted about a lot of the elements of the New Player Experience. I don’t like what’s happened to the Profession Skills, I don’t mind the weapon skill unlocking, but I prefer the old system (which I feel inspired a stronger sense of progress). I’m willing to reserve judgment on the whole and out of respect for the insights Colin and ArenaNet have brought forward, but I will say I started a new Thief and was tired of it at level six, then recreated the character as an Elementalist, which I put more time into to get a better idea of how that experience would play out at low levels.

The one thing that just absolutely irks me to no end is the popups for level up rewards, renown quest rewards, and—to a lesser degree—reward chests for world bosses, map completion, achievement rewards, etc.. It gets me on a couple of different fronts. First off, the popup is gigantic— far bigger than it needs to be. Seriously, is there an interface scaling setting I just haven’t noticed in the last two years?

The other side of it is that they’re annoying. All I can think of when I see those things shaking and flashing in the corner of my screen is Crash Different, in particular the line about psychological warfare and terriers (the line starts at about 1:41 and I grant the whole of the video is likely outdated, but for this, it’s relevant). Do I really have to click on it when I’m still in the middle of combat? No, but I want to because I want it off my screen as quickly as possible.

I do have a suggestion for a solution. If I’d brought this up when I really grew to dislike it after the popup was implemented for Renown Quests, I probably wouldn’t have thought of this first, but take a card from Microsoft. Do something like the balloon popup in the Notification Tray on the Windows Taskbar. Have the chests and the reward buttons appear by the minimap as they do now, but when you click on them, have an informative balloon pop up next to them. Fill it with icons for what was awarded, make them clickable to call up the hint system for things like dodging or stat increases, but please, please make it automatically fade away and dismiss it if the user doesn’t keep their mouse on it or dismiss it manually. And if the user needs to pick an item, then make it stay, but bring the selection process in line with buying slot skills—make it two clicks on the icon, once to select and a second click on a confirm button.

I believe this would be a much more elegant system than what is currently in place. It would provide the same information to new players without being obtrusive. For more experienced players, it helps get the interface out of the way of the game while still providing the same functionality, should the player care to explore it regardless their experience level. It also makes some of the redundancy more palatable. After all, I don’t need a popup window in the middle of my screen to tell me how much karma and coin I received for that latest Renown Quest when all that information will pop up again on the list at right as soon as I click Accept.

johnnyfiveaces.4712:

I fail to see how the current system is meant to retain players when 90% of new Mesmers will outright quit after dying for the billionth time in a personal story instance that was balanced around them having actual skills to use.

Personal Story starts at level 10, all of the mobs/encounters were balanced for that level 10. You have all of you main skills for weapons 1-5 at level 10. Its just fine doing Personal Story. Maybe if you actually tried the patch you’d know this instead of making baseless arguments.

Paradox.1380:

Personal Story starts at level 10, all of the mobs/encounters were balanced for that level 10. You have all of you main skills for weapons 1-5 at level 10. Its just fine doing Personal Story. Maybe if you actually tried the patch you’d know this instead of making baseless arguments.

Mesmers are actually REALLY BAD at low levels. You have next to no clone generation. Not having Decoy and Mirror Image (which you won’t have because no utilities yet!) and only one weapon set generating clones (no weapon swap yet!) is really, really painful.

Paradox.1380:

Well D3 is the largest ARPG on teh market with well over 3 Million copies sold? I dont’ assume anything I was simply making a point that GW2 is NOT the only game with problems, its not the only AAA title with problems.

I never said it was right, but that’s just the way it is and there is almost nothing they can do to fix it. The fact of the matter is you CANNOT possibly test for the live environment enough to stop any bugs (big or small) from making it into the live patch. Its just not possible. All they can do is hunt the bugs and fix them after they’ve happened.

Maybe someday a company will come up with a way to make all things technology/code related ship without bugs.. but until that day why should I complain about bugs? At least they are aware they exist and are working on them. You can ask for more all you like but its simply not plausible.

If the stance you want to take on this issue is that ANet it’s literally not the worst, then that’s up to you.

I maintain that ANet has a big problem with QA and that it absolutely can do better, quite a bit better.

I have no expectation of eliminating every bug. I do have an expectation for the list of bugs and unintended functionality introduced every patch to be smaller than the patch list. (and yes this is a slight exaggeration)

ZerosLune.6720:

Most of what Colin says makes sense. Gating things farther away in level terms, but making level up more quickly so it takes the same amount of real time makes sense, and help feeling the first levels as more rewarding.

Yes and no. They are equal from a pacing perspective, but if the enemies you face from say levels 30-40 are balanced based on the idea that you’re going to have access to an elite skill, then it’s going to increase the challenge when you wind up facing them without one.

Sarrs.4831:

Paradox.1380:

Personal Story starts at level 10, all of the mobs/encounters were balanced for that level 10. You have all of you main skills for weapons 1-5 at level 10. Its just fine doing Personal Story. Maybe if you actually tried the patch you’d know this instead of making baseless arguments.

Mesmers are actually REALLY BAD at low levels. You have next to no clone generation. Not having Decoy and Mirror Image (which you won’t have because no utilities yet!) and only one weapon set generating clones (no weapon swap yet!) is really, really painful.

Hmm, I just leveled a mesmer to 30 last night… no problems. maybe its because I already have another mesmer that’s 80? I’m not sure on this one. But, I can see how it may be hard for some people. Mesmer is one of the professions that is supposed to have one of the highest learning/difficulty curves there is. Elementalist as well apparently. Though I’ve had more trouble with warrior than anything.

ColinJohanson.2394:

Hey folks,

Wanted to pop by and give another update on where we stand, as well as to help provide some information on some of the more common misconceptions we’ve seen floating around as well:

- There are bugs! We’ve seen the content direction system (the little arrow) pointing people at super high level maps when it shouldn’t, some systems/features not unlocking as intended for all characters on your account once your first learns them, some systems level gated that aren’t intended to be, balance issues where certain levels appear to be very out of whack, etc. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, our team is working to figure out what happened here and fix these as quickly as possible.

- There is misinformation: Numerous systems that show up in the level up guide that teaches you about things in the game when you gain levels are not locked out, the system simply tells you they exist in the game to help give you a better list of things you can do. Just because it’s included in the level up guide, doesn’t mean it’s actually locked out. You can dodge from level one, jumping puzzle from level one, etc. There also appear to be a lot of folks chiming in who haven’t actually played with any of the system, and are making claims that aren’t remotely true.

- There are some things happening at the wrong levels. Things like utility skills and elites are intended to come at approx. the same time they used to in actual game time, we sped up leveling for levels 1-15 and had them slide back in levels a bit to offset that pacing, they are not currently where we want them to be in the level up system. This was an oversight, and will absolutely be fixed.

- Not all of these changes were made as ways to teach the game, some of them are to provide a better sense of pacing, reward and progression. Early on we want to give a sense that you’re rapidly gaining new abilities, rewards, and learning new things as you level up. We added the level up reward messages, and the actual rewards themselves, and took abilities you’d usually use around that point in total game hours and presented them as unlocks (or things we teach that are already unlocked) to help give a better sense of pacing and progression.

With the addition of the new rewards, messaging, and level up screen to make leveling more exciting: we also wanted to make sure you had that feeling of excitement more often early on in the game, and presented new learning on a more regular cadence. So we greatly sped up leveling from levels 1-15. Many of the things unlocked at later levels are earned at about the same time period you used to start using them in the old system in actual real game time, we just staggered them out across the levels since we sped up leveling to make the game feel more rewarding early on.

- In general, this system is intended to be not only better for new players, but our hope is by the time it’s all in place you’ll find via the better rewards from levels 1-80 via the level up guide, the better rewards from personal story, the faster leveling from 1-15, and the ability to toggle the content direction system to help you with map complete will make this a better for experienced players as well.

- Over a years worth of testing with new players found we were absolutely able to keep them both more engaged, and more likely to return to keep playing Gw2 as a result of the intended system. That is at the end of the day, a win for all of us since all of you need more people to play with! However: if we find in the live environment that isn’t true and we’re not retaining new users better, we’ll absolutely both share that information with you, and continue to iterate to make it better. We keep very real time metrics of player retention for new users, and we’ll know very quickly how effective the work we’ve done is. I want to make it clear: what we used to have absolutely wasn’t good enough for our standards of retaining new users. Before we do some of the other things we want to do with Gw2, we had to fix this, period.

- Finally, I want to add that a few things (hello traits!) are things that can be improved for players who make multiple alts, we’re aware of this, and though company policy prevents us from discussing what’s in development: I can say we know Gw2 can be an even better game for people who love making alts in the long run, more info: when it’s ready™.

Thanks for the detailed info on the situation. I am curious to see what the leveling system will look like once it is in the “fully intended” place.

Tyops.5894:

Paradox.1380:

Well D3 is the largest ARPG on teh market with well over 3 Million copies sold? I dont’ assume anything I was simply making a point that GW2 is NOT the only game with problems, its not the only AAA title with problems.

I never said it was right, but that’s just the way it is and there is almost nothing they can do to fix it. The fact of the matter is you CANNOT possibly test for the live environment enough to stop any bugs (big or small) from making it into the live patch. Its just not possible. All they can do is hunt the bugs and fix them after they’ve happened.

Maybe someday a company will come up with a way to make all things technology/code related ship without bugs.. but until that day why should I complain about bugs? At least they are aware they exist and are working on them. You can ask for more all you like but its simply not plausible.

If the stance you want to take on this issue is that ANet it’s literally not the worst, then that’s up to you.

I maintain that ANet has a big problem with QA and that it absolutely can do better, quite a bit better.

I have no expectation of eliminating every bug. I do have an expectation for the list of bugs and unintended functionality introduced every patch to be smaller than the patch list. (and yes this is a slight exaggeration)

Uhm, but they are under No obligation to do this for you.

I don’t know what to tell you personal experience is just that; personal. and I personally have seen worse and to be honest I expect bugs and I am never surprised when I come across them.

Hey there. Playing for the first time in a very long time (over a year, minus a holiday or two), due to leveling changes. I still have my old 80 (created on the first day of GW2), but I’m starting over.

I like it better, so far. I’m hoping I’ll get direction to head to the city at some point, as I feel that’s lacking, and I really wish you offered a clearer understanding of the skill point achievements rather than “come back later”. It took me awhile to understand that was because I don’t have any skill points just yet.

Otherwise, I enjoyed creating my sylvan guardian – we’ll see how long I keep it up. gating the exploration points was a weird idea, though.

I’m not a WvW person. I want more Personal Story, and I want to see much more done with our housing area, as the backpedaling from what the company talked about during beta was very disappointing for someone who wants a unique experience.

Folks who think people who don’t raid or PvP are “casual” can go suck an egg – I did my time in WoW, I want something different (and unique) to play.

Thanks again for giving me a reason to come back.

I really don’t give a rats behind about the new player’s hand holding stupidifying experience drama going on.

I. WANT. MORE. DUNGEONS.

I. WANT. MORE. MAP. TO. EXPLORE.

I. WANT. MORE. MOBS. TO. FIGHT. (this could be tied to the previous point, yes)

You do that, I’ll return to play and buy stupid stuff from the store.

Cheers!

“They are desperately sacrificing fun on the Altar of Metrics, hoping to stave off an untimely end, but in typical self-fulfilling prophecy fashion the very thing they are doing to prevent that end is paving the way for it.” ~ my little voice

“Revamped Traits, New Player Experience… why am I reminded of that old saw about bad things happening in threes? Hah ha! Who wants to bet there’s a third shoe almost ready to be dropped? Bringing about a happy little Trilogy of Terror.” ~ my other little voice

“Hey, go get some fresh kitty litter already.” ~ my cats

Hey,

My ranger is lvl 14 now after 4 hours of casual playtime, including stopping once in a while and taking screenshots as well as light bltp usage.

The leveling is more fun like this, the weapon unlocks happen so quickly it didn’t bother me not having all skills right from the start.
Even though I knew the skills already, it felt like new players will have an easier time to find out a rotation that works for them, as well as sticking to one weapon for a while and really getting to know it.

Locked was very little besides the skills, I was able to use scrolls to get more sp, tp, gather, vista, everything basically. Except of skill challenges but at least it lets you charge quartz, I reached the appropriate level quickly as well.

The camera changes are subtle but just right and much needed (for me).

I liked the map changes as well, for I do still remember seeing all those icons was daunting at first (maybe 5 minutes?) and the map is much cleaner now at first.

The arrow works great, if you need it I guess. After 2 years, everybody here knows a large part of the events and heart quests. Apparently it can lead players to certain death too but that’ll be fixed.

What I also liked was removing some of the “stronger” enemies & mechanics.
With this change you created the progression that was needed from lvl 15 onwards, discovering a higher level map now also means new mechanics and more challenges, even though they are still the same easy “challenges” for veterans.

The story missions’ (I finished zhaitan yesterday) rewards feel better, you get that neat little box with the pact skin and a lvl 18 exotic armor your choice! Well done.
The volunteer bonus is a great idea too.
I do see this feature pack as an improvement over the old version and I think you will in fact retain more new players like this.

Just…

Make sure those new players have some end game content, which means veterans, which means Gem sales, which means “that model gw2 is based on”, not box sales I believe. Even though I would prefer box sales which would include potential expansions.

Let’s be frank, this patch should have contained an equal amount for veterans but you had to make a choice and this couldn’t wait. Fair enough, I’m sure you guys are aware of problems with retaining veterans.

tl;dr

• 4h for lvl 14/15 very very casually
• leveling is fast & fun
• skills unlock quickly
• less cluttered map in the beginning
• no real other gates, tp, gathering, vistas etc all work
• feeling of progression when coming to a higher lvl map as mobs & mechanics change
• New level up pop-up is nice, feels more rewarding, more often.
• little arrow is probably great for new players, if it doesn’t point to certain death
• Story rewards structure (not the rewards!) works better, love low lvl exotic gear
• No pressure to start or follow the personal story while lvling parallel
• overall feels more slick
• probably gonna retain new players better
• still little end game content for vets (veterans = gem sales?)
• new players = box sales = not how GW2 tried to make money until now
• make sure those newly retained players have end game