Guild Wars 2

Villious.8530:

Vayne.8563:

Villious.8530:

Vayne.8563:

Villious.8530:

Ulitma Online, Everquest, Asheron’s Call, Asheron’s Call 2, Dark Age of Camelot, Everquest 2, World of Warcraft……I’ve never played an MMO that left a bad taste when it comes to this.

Now, if this is the future of MMO’s……I’m a saaad panda :-(

WoW has a monthly fee and STILL has a cash shop. Sorry but I think that’s massively greedy. Are you saying that WoW, with it’s 8.3 million subscribers, it used to be a lot more, making $15 for each of them every month has to also have a cash shop? I consider that the height of greed.

Dark Age of Camelot is an old and dead game. It had a monthly fee when it was 12 years old. It’s made a ton of money. So yeah, let’s take the monthly fee MMOs off, because you can’t compare them.

Compare it to buy to play or free to play MMOs that continually produce content. That’s ALL you can honestly compare it to, without being completely disingenuous.

And don’t go and bring Sony into this, because they’re as greedy as anyone.

Now look at the Turbine games. Go look at the Lotro cash shop, the DDO cash shop. Go look at AoC’s cash shop. Hell, in SWToR, which has gone free to play, you can barely walk without paying a fee. Go take a look at Runes of Magic’s cash shop. Anything by PW.

I don’t say you shouldn’t be annoyed by RNG, but you should at least be honest about comparisons.

I was just speaking to MY past experiences.
I give up. As always, you’re right.

It’s not about being right or wrong, not in this case. It’s about being realistic. A game produced 5-10 years ago is facing a completely different market than a game being produced today. The whole industry has changed. It’s more competitive. Everyone needs what edges they can get.

Do you really not think WoW is greedy for having a cash shop on top of a subscription fee?

If the cash shop is direct purchase, and not a slot machine, I’m ok with it.
If WoW is subscription and slot machine cash shop, then yes, it’s crazy greedy. I don’t have a problem with the cash shops. If done right, I’ll spend money in them. What I don’t like is the slot machine tactic. If they are going to use RNG, then put it IN the game as drops, not in the cash shop to get skins. That’s my preference.

So you’re saying a company that ALREADY makes millions and millions of dollars each and every month, should go out and sell mounts and minis for $25 bucks as well. And that’s somehow okay?

But Anet, that doesn’t have a subscription fee are the bad guys because some of the cosmetic skins are RNG?

We have a completely different set of morals. In no way does WoW need that kind of money to run their game. Half of it is put back into advertising. The company makes crazy money and STILL sells stuff for cash.

I don’t like RNG, but I hate a company that charges a monthly fee to millions of people and still has the gall to sell items, even cosmetic items outside of that.

Vayne.8563:

Villious.8530:

Vayne.8563:

Villious.8530:

Vayne.8563:

Villious.8530:

Ulitma Online, Everquest, Asheron’s Call, Asheron’s Call 2, Dark Age of Camelot, Everquest 2, World of Warcraft……I’ve never played an MMO that left a bad taste when it comes to this.

Now, if this is the future of MMO’s……I’m a saaad panda :-(

WoW has a monthly fee and STILL has a cash shop. Sorry but I think that’s massively greedy. Are you saying that WoW, with it’s 8.3 million subscribers, it used to be a lot more, making $15 for each of them every month has to also have a cash shop? I consider that the height of greed.

Dark Age of Camelot is an old and dead game. It had a monthly fee when it was 12 years old. It’s made a ton of money. So yeah, let’s take the monthly fee MMOs off, because you can’t compare them.

Compare it to buy to play or free to play MMOs that continually produce content. That’s ALL you can honestly compare it to, without being completely disingenuous.

And don’t go and bring Sony into this, because they’re as greedy as anyone.

Now look at the Turbine games. Go look at the Lotro cash shop, the DDO cash shop. Go look at AoC’s cash shop. Hell, in SWToR, which has gone free to play, you can barely walk without paying a fee. Go take a look at Runes of Magic’s cash shop. Anything by PW.

I don’t say you shouldn’t be annoyed by RNG, but you should at least be honest about comparisons.

I was just speaking to MY past experiences.
I give up. As always, you’re right.

It’s not about being right or wrong, not in this case. It’s about being realistic. A game produced 5-10 years ago is facing a completely different market than a game being produced today. The whole industry has changed. It’s more competitive. Everyone needs what edges they can get.

Do you really not think WoW is greedy for having a cash shop on top of a subscription fee?

If the cash shop is direct purchase, and not a slot machine, I’m ok with it.
If WoW is subscription and slot machine cash shop, then yes, it’s crazy greedy. I don’t have a problem with the cash shops. If done right, I’ll spend money in them. What I don’t like is the slot machine tactic. If they are going to use RNG, then put it IN the game as drops, not in the cash shop to get skins. That’s my preference.

So you’re saying a company that ALREADY makes millions and millions of dollars each and every month, should go out and sell mounts and minis for $25 bucks as well. And that’s somehow okay?

But Anet, that doesn’t have a subscription fee are the bad guys because some of the cosmetic skins are RNG?

We have a completely different set of morals. In no way does WoW need that kind of money to run their game. Half of it is put back into advertising. The company makes crazy money and STILL sells stuff for cash.

I don’t like RNG, but I hate a company that charges a monthly fee to millions of people and still has the gall to sell items, even cosmetic items outside of that.

So now you’re attacking my morals. I’m done. You’ll not hear a reply from me to one of your many, many, many, many post ever again. You’ve pretty much single handedly (along with one or two others) turned me off from even looking at these Anet forums. It’s just as bad and tiring as the hate/rage quite post. And yes I know, you have a “following”. Have a nice day Vayne.

SAB skins, two new southsun back pack, molten gloves etc. All non-RNG skins, not to mention we have been getting monthly updates since release, can’t say the same for most if any other MMO.

Now then, on the subject of RNG cash shop, no, it is not needed. But here’s the thing, if it is the most profitable, you are kitten right they are going to do it and you can not fault them for it because at the end of the day every game is made for one purpose: to make money and they will keep doing it if people pay for it, because as a company they would be idiotic not to.

Besides, they HAVE added skins that can not be obtained from the cash shop as well as monthly updates. I’d argue the added skins so far are the same quality of not higher quality then any of the RNG box ones so far.

No, don’t get confused, I don’t agree with RNG cash shop but I fully understand why a company would choose it and appreciate they are only doing this with some skins, instead of throwing in something like ascended gear which is totally something that other companies have done and continue to do.

Villious.8530:

Vayne.8563:

Villious.8530:

Vayne.8563:

Villious.8530:

Vayne.8563:

Villious.8530:

Ulitma Online, Everquest, Asheron’s Call, Asheron’s Call 2, Dark Age of Camelot, Everquest 2, World of Warcraft……I’ve never played an MMO that left a bad taste when it comes to this.

Now, if this is the future of MMO’s……I’m a saaad panda :-(

WoW has a monthly fee and STILL has a cash shop. Sorry but I think that’s massively greedy. Are you saying that WoW, with it’s 8.3 million subscribers, it used to be a lot more, making $15 for each of them every month has to also have a cash shop? I consider that the height of greed.

Dark Age of Camelot is an old and dead game. It had a monthly fee when it was 12 years old. It’s made a ton of money. So yeah, let’s take the monthly fee MMOs off, because you can’t compare them.

Compare it to buy to play or free to play MMOs that continually produce content. That’s ALL you can honestly compare it to, without being completely disingenuous.

And don’t go and bring Sony into this, because they’re as greedy as anyone.

Now look at the Turbine games. Go look at the Lotro cash shop, the DDO cash shop. Go look at AoC’s cash shop. Hell, in SWToR, which has gone free to play, you can barely walk without paying a fee. Go take a look at Runes of Magic’s cash shop. Anything by PW.

I don’t say you shouldn’t be annoyed by RNG, but you should at least be honest about comparisons.

I was just speaking to MY past experiences.
I give up. As always, you’re right.

It’s not about being right or wrong, not in this case. It’s about being realistic. A game produced 5-10 years ago is facing a completely different market than a game being produced today. The whole industry has changed. It’s more competitive. Everyone needs what edges they can get.

Do you really not think WoW is greedy for having a cash shop on top of a subscription fee?

If the cash shop is direct purchase, and not a slot machine, I’m ok with it.
If WoW is subscription and slot machine cash shop, then yes, it’s crazy greedy. I don’t have a problem with the cash shops. If done right, I’ll spend money in them. What I don’t like is the slot machine tactic. If they are going to use RNG, then put it IN the game as drops, not in the cash shop to get skins. That’s my preference.

So you’re saying a company that ALREADY makes millions and millions of dollars each and every month, should go out and sell mounts and minis for $25 bucks as well. And that’s somehow okay?

But Anet, that doesn’t have a subscription fee are the bad guys because some of the cosmetic skins are RNG?

We have a completely different set of morals. In no way does WoW need that kind of money to run their game. Half of it is put back into advertising. The company makes crazy money and STILL sells stuff for cash.

I don’t like RNG, but I hate a company that charges a monthly fee to millions of people and still has the gall to sell items, even cosmetic items outside of that.

So now you’re attacking my morals. I’m done. You’ll not hear a reply from me to one of your many, many, many, many post ever again. You’ve pretty much single handedly (along with one or two others) turned me off from even looking at these Anet forums. It’s just as bad and tiring as the hate/rage quite post. And yes I know, you have a “following”. Have a nice day Vayne.

Wow, thin skin much? I wasn’t attacking your morals I was point out what makes me angry. If that bothers you so much, don’t reply to my posts.

So you’re saying a company that ALREADY makes millions and millions of dollars each and every month, should go out and sell mounts and minis for $25 bucks as well. And that’s somehow okay?

But Anet, that doesn’t have a subscription fee are the bad guys because some of the cosmetic skins are RNG?

We have a completely different set of morals. In no way does WoW need that kind of money to run their game. Half of it is put back into advertising. The company makes crazy money and STILL sells stuff for cash.

I don’t like RNG, but I hate a company that charges a monthly fee to millions of people and still has the gall to sell items, even cosmetic items outside of that.[/quote]

Vayne you have no idea how Blizzard spends the money it makes from WOW. Also they charge for mounts and pets and you know exactly what you are getting and there’s nothing unethical about how WOW is operated financially. They do a horrible job of monitoring players being abusive in the game but that’s about it.

Also why do you hate paying a monthly fee for a game? Do you expect everyone else to buy lottery/gambling chests for things they could buy directly from the cash shop just because you don’t want to pay to play a game?

Are you saying you can afford15 bucks a month to play a game?

Woah woah woah…. stop right here.

Why are we trying to change GW2 into a subscription game?

Jaall.3420:

That works the other way too – If everyone has the vanity items, they stand out less so less incentive to buy them to be different.

The items still would have to be bought – just not through RNG. Most people would still not get them. The only difference would be in that people would be able to make an informed decision about buying those (instead of sinking a ton of cash on the boxes and likely getting nothing).

dinominator.9862:

Woah woah woah…. stop right here.

Why are we trying to change GW2 into a subscription game?

because, no matter how bad it is, it’s still better than changing it into a casino.

Aethyl.7519:

Oh, they don’t always pay.

I have a friend who didn’t care about the molten skins at all. Then, he gets a key from his personal story, and with that first chest he gets a ticket.

I personally wanted a molted weapon skin since they were fitting with my character. I bought 30 keys with gold, nothing.

But yeah, it’s fair, coz RNG is always fair.

At least for Southsun Cove it seems that we may have a chance to get the new chests from mobs, it’s something.

Don’t forget the fact that you don’t need keys to open them. That’s always a plus.

Astralporing.1957:

because, no matter how bad it is, it’s still better than changing it into a casino.

And you’ve decided this for everyone, even those who bought the game for its promise of being subscription-less?

Villious.8530:

Ulitma Online, Everquest, Asheron’s Call, Asheron’s Call 2, Dark Age of Camelot, Everquest 2, World of Warcraft……I’ve never played an MMO that left a bad taste when it comes to this.

Now, if this is the future of MMO’s……I’m a saaad panda :-(

Have you ever played an MMO that didn’t either charge you a monthly subscription fee or restrict the actual, non-cosmetic content to their cash shop? I think something that’s getting lost in all of this is the rng boxes are limited to cosmetic items that in no way affect our ability to actually play the game.

Drew.1865:

So you’re saying a company that ALREADY makes millions and millions of dollars each and every month, should go out and sell mounts and minis for $25 bucks as well. And that’s somehow okay?

But Anet, that doesn’t have a subscription fee are the bad guys because some of the cosmetic skins are RNG?

We have a completely different set of morals. In no way does WoW need that kind of money to run their game. Half of it is put back into advertising. The company makes crazy money and STILL sells stuff for cash.

I don’t like RNG, but I hate a company that charges a monthly fee to millions of people and still has the gall to sell items, even cosmetic items outside of that.

Vayne you have no idea how Blizzard spends the money it makes from WOW. Also they charge for mounts and pets and you know exactly what you are getting and there’s nothing unethical about how WOW is operated financially. They do a horrible job of monitoring players being abusive in the game but that’s about it.

Also why do you hate paying a monthly fee for a game? Do you expect everyone else to buy lottery/gambling chests for things they could buy directly from the cash shop just because you don’t want to pay to play a game?

Are you saying you can afford15 bucks a month to play a game?

[/quote]

I’ve paid a monthly fee for a game. I didn’t like the game. I paid a monthly fee for another game. I didn’t like that game.

The goal of games that charge monthly fees is to slow down EVERYTHING. Flight paths. Crafting. If I have to craft 150 of something in WoW, I might as well go make a sandwhich. Why? To slow people down.

People complain about dailies, but I wonder how many of them know about raid lockouts. In the end, a subscription game is made to move as slow as possible, so it takes you more time to do everything, including leveling.

If you think Guild Wars 2 has slowed people down with dailies, you should check out the competition. So yeah, I CAN pay a monthly fee. I HAVE paid a monthly fee. But the fact that a game charges a monthly fee ends up dictating exactly how the game will play out and I don’t like those games.

darkace.8925:

Villious.8530:

Ulitma Online, Everquest, Asheron’s Call, Asheron’s Call 2, Dark Age of Camelot, Everquest 2, World of Warcraft……I’ve never played an MMO that left a bad taste when it comes to this.

Now, if this is the future of MMO’s……I’m a saaad panda :-(

Have you ever played an MMO that didn’t either charge you a monthly subscription fee or restrict the actual, non-cosmetic content to their cash shop? I think something that’s getting lost in all of this is the rng boxes are limited to cosmetic items that in no way affect our ability to actually play the game.

Sigh
For an awful lot of people…cosmetics IS the game. I could care less about the stats. I like cosmetics in MMO’s. Many do. Why is this so hard for some people to understand?

Villious.8530:

Drew, you’re trying to reason with a fence post….it doesn’t work. Just let him do what he does best…

You won’t answer my posts, but you’ll talk about me? lol

I’m not closed-minded. I simply disagree.

dinominator.9862:

Astralporing.1957:

because, no matter how bad it is, it’s still better than changing it into a casino.

And you’ve decided this for everyone, even those who bought the game for its promise of being subscription-less?

Yes. Well I have, dunno about that other guy

Villious.8530:

darkace.8925:

Villious.8530:

Ulitma Online, Everquest, Asheron’s Call, Asheron’s Call 2, Dark Age of Camelot, Everquest 2, World of Warcraft……I’ve never played an MMO that left a bad taste when it comes to this.

Now, if this is the future of MMO’s……I’m a saaad panda :-(

Have you ever played an MMO that didn’t either charge you a monthly subscription fee or restrict the actual, non-cosmetic content to their cash shop? I think something that’s getting lost in all of this is the rng boxes are limited to cosmetic items that in no way affect our ability to actually play the game.

Sigh
For an awful lot of people…cosmetics IS the game. I could care less about the stats. I like cosmetics in MMO’s. Many do. Why is this so hard for some people to understand?

Ding ding ding, we have a winner. Tell him what he’s won Charlie: MORE RNG!!!!!

Villious.8530:

darkace.8925:

Villious.8530:

Ulitma Online, Everquest, Asheron’s Call, Asheron’s Call 2, Dark Age of Camelot, Everquest 2, World of Warcraft……I’ve never played an MMO that left a bad taste when it comes to this.

Now, if this is the future of MMO’s……I’m a saaad panda :-(

Have you ever played an MMO that didn’t either charge you a monthly subscription fee or restrict the actual, non-cosmetic content to their cash shop? I think something that’s getting lost in all of this is the rng boxes are limited to cosmetic items that in no way affect our ability to actually play the game.

Sigh
For an awful lot of people…cosmetics IS the game. I could care less about the stats. I like cosmetics in MMO’s. Many do. Why is this so hard for some people to understand?

So you’re telling me that if they stripped away all the dungeons, all the Fractals, the open-world PvE, PvP, WvW crafting, levels and level requirements, and everything else except for Lion’s Arch, dyes, and weapon and armor skins you’d still play?

Setting aside my hyperbolic response, I’m pretty sure you can still play dress-up without resorting to rng. And if one of the rng boxes has an item you simply cannot live without, then you’re just going to have to suck it up and play the rng game. I’m sorry, but that’s just the way it is. And before you attack me, remember that I’m as against the rng boxes as you are.

darkace.8925:

So you’re telling me that if they stripped away all the dungeons, all the Fractals, the open-world PvE, PvP, WvW crafting, levels and level requirements, and everything else except for Lion’s Arch, dyes, and weapon and armor skins you’d still play?

I’m going to save this reply and use it against people who try to say raids and trinity in this game are an absolute must for it to thrive. =D

No Walking.6349:

Gee…I’m so glad that Anet took an amazing franchise and turned it into a money grubbing RNG fest. Remember when cool items used to cost time, and not money… Glad to see all the people running around with these weapons and know that they spent no effort to get them at all, but instead just opened their wallet.

Well, to be fair, they (hopefully) worked for that money which is indeed more than no effort at all.

Just something to munch on: how many skins are out there available in the game itself? And how many of those are unique? Compare it to the number of skins that you say are RNG based that needs to be bought with cash first?

As long as ANet releases skins that can be acquired by ingame means, and there are a heck lot more of skins that do look nice while still being acquirable with ingame credit, that would be okay.

People here are just worried that this might set a precedence for skins being too out of reach for many.

darkace.8925:

Villious.8530:

darkace.8925:

Villious.8530:

Ulitma Online, Everquest, Asheron’s Call, Asheron’s Call 2, Dark Age of Camelot, Everquest 2, World of Warcraft……I’ve never played an MMO that left a bad taste when it comes to this.

Now, if this is the future of MMO’s……I’m a saaad panda :-(

Have you ever played an MMO that didn’t either charge you a monthly subscription fee or restrict the actual, non-cosmetic content to their cash shop? I think something that’s getting lost in all of this is the rng boxes are limited to cosmetic items that in no way affect our ability to actually play the game.

Sigh
For an awful lot of people…cosmetics IS the game. I could care less about the stats. I like cosmetics in MMO’s. Many do. Why is this so hard for some people to understand?

So you’re telling me that if they stripped away all the dungeons, all the Fractals, the open-world PvE, PvP, WvW crafting, levels and level requirements, and everything else except for Lion’s Arch, dyes, and weapon and armor skins you’d still play?

Setting aside my hyperbolic response, I’m pretty sure you can still play dress-up without resorting to rng. And if one of the rng boxes has an item you simply cannot live without, then you’re just going to have to suck it up and play the rng game. I’m sorry, but that’s just the way it is. And before you attack me, remember that I’m as against the rng boxes as you are.

Obviously, you don’t get it, and never will. I think I’ll log in and play dress-up.

Tolmos.8395:

darkace.8925:

So you’re telling me that if they stripped away all the dungeons, all the Fractals, the open-world PvE, PvP, WvW crafting, levels and level requirements, and everything else except for Lion’s Arch, dyes, and weapon and armor skins you’d still play?

I’m going to save this reply and use it against people who try to say raids and trinity in this game are an absolute must for it to thrive. =D

I don’t see how that quote would help you with trinity or raids or how it’s even related. If anything it can be used as justification for actually adding new content, that’s an awfully short list, and a lot of people sit in LA showing off their shinies most of the day already anyway

darkace.8925:

So you’re telling me that if they stripped away all the dungeons, all the Fractals, the open-world PvE, PvP, WvW crafting, levels and level requirements, and everything else except for Lion’s Arch, dyes, and weapon and armor skins you’d still play?

Setting aside my hyperbolic response, I’m pretty sure you can still play dress-up without resorting to rng. And if one of the rng boxes has an item you simply cannot live without, then you’re just going to have to suck it up and play the rng game. I’m sorry, but that’s just the way it is. And before you attack me, remember that I’m as against the rng boxes as you are.

Someone in another RNG post answered your logic perfectly. I’ll refer to him:

Tolmos.8395:

darkace.8925:

munkiman.3068:

This is the sort of defense of this practice i see a lot on here. It’s not about having to have the items, it’s about wanting to have them. Comparing real life luxury items, with in game items is really a bit silly, don’t you think?

No, I don’t. I see no difference at all in the purchase of real life luxury item and a virtual luxury item. And cosmetic skins are just that, luxury items. I don’t like the rng system any more than you do, but let’s not pretend these cosmetic skins are required to enjoy the game.

I agree with most of what you said, but you worded that last line incorrectly. They are not required to be SUCCESSFUL in the game, but whether or not they are required to enjoy the game is 100% subjective. For some players, aesthetics are a big part of a game and if they find an aesthetic they desire for their character and have no valid way of attaining that item, it can indeed kill their enjoyment of the game.

It would be like a raider being told there is a raid in the game and they have a random chance of getting to play it. You might be thinking “That’s different. That’s actually playing!”. No, it isn’t. That’s what a raider enjoys doing. Aesthetics is what others may enjoy. The way you are thinking about aesthetics, I am thinking about that raid. Me being able to enter that instance doesn’t affect my enjoyment in any way, shape or form, so I wouldn’t care if it was RNG.

Anet added this RNG in with super low chances knowing full well that it would kill the enjoyment of the game for certain individuals. That’s impossible to deny. But it’s that same fact that brings in so much money for them- those people are going to spend spend spend (if they can) to get those items to increase their own enjoyment.

They know those players want their next hit, and Anet is the only provider for them.

Vayne.8563

So you’re saying a company that ALREADY makes millions and millions of dollars each and every month, should go out and sell mounts and minis for $25 bucks as well. And that’s somehow okay?

What’s wrong with that? You more than anyone should know that MMOs are a business first. There’s nothing inherently wrong with selling more products, especially if those products serve a good business model that increases the quality of current and future products.

The issue is RNG. If someone objects to RNG boxes, then they will object to it in WoW. You’re not going to win this issue by so obviously shifting the goal posts with illogical comparisons.

Vayne.8563:

Villious.8530:

Vayne.8563:

Villious.8530:

Vayne.8563:

Villious.8530:

Ulitma Online, Everquest, Asheron’s Call, Asheron’s Call 2, Dark Age of Camelot, Everquest 2, World of Warcraft……I’ve never played an MMO that left a bad taste when it comes to this.

Now, if this is the future of MMO’s……I’m a saaad panda :-(

WoW has a monthly fee and STILL has a cash shop. Sorry but I think that’s massively greedy. Are you saying that WoW, with it’s 8.3 million subscribers, it used to be a lot more, making $15 for each of them every month has to also have a cash shop? I consider that the height of greed.

Dark Age of Camelot is an old and dead game. It had a monthly fee when it was 12 years old. It’s made a ton of money. So yeah, let’s take the monthly fee MMOs off, because you can’t compare them.

Compare it to buy to play or free to play MMOs that continually produce content. That’s ALL you can honestly compare it to, without being completely disingenuous.

And don’t go and bring Sony into this, because they’re as greedy as anyone.

Now look at the Turbine games. Go look at the Lotro cash shop, the DDO cash shop. Go look at AoC’s cash shop. Hell, in SWToR, which has gone free to play, you can barely walk without paying a fee. Go take a look at Runes of Magic’s cash shop. Anything by PW.

I don’t say you shouldn’t be annoyed by RNG, but you should at least be honest about comparisons.

I was just speaking to MY past experiences.
I give up. As always, you’re right.

It’s not about being right or wrong, not in this case. It’s about being realistic. A game produced 5-10 years ago is facing a completely different market than a game being produced today. The whole industry has changed. It’s more competitive. Everyone needs what edges they can get.

Do you really not think WoW is greedy for having a cash shop on top of a subscription fee?

If the cash shop is direct purchase, and not a slot machine, I’m ok with it.
If WoW is subscription and slot machine cash shop, then yes, it’s crazy greedy. I don’t have a problem with the cash shops. If done right, I’ll spend money in them. What I don’t like is the slot machine tactic. If they are going to use RNG, then put it IN the game as drops, not in the cash shop to get skins. That’s my preference.

So you’re saying a company that ALREADY makes millions and millions of dollars each and every month, should go out and sell mounts and minis for $25 bucks as well. And that’s somehow okay?

But Anet, that doesn’t have a subscription fee are the bad guys because some of the cosmetic skins are RNG?

We have a completely different set of morals. In no way does WoW need that kind of money to run their game. Half of it is put back into advertising. The company makes crazy money and STILL sells stuff for cash.

I don’t like RNG, but I hate a company that charges a monthly fee to millions of people and still has the gall to sell items, even cosmetic items outside of that.

The problem I have with RNG is that you disappoint 100 customers for each 1 that is happy. I don’t see how that’s a good business strategy.

TooBz.3065:

The problem I have with RNG is that you disappoint 100 customers for each 1 that is happy. I don’t see how that’s a good business strategy.

When the 100 players combined spend 10% as much as the one satisfied player, Anet has more to lose by driving him away than the 100.

Wetpaw.3487:

Anet is nothing more then a dog on a leash to these suits from NCSoft, the players and business models in the gaming industry that support this kind of RNG gamble are the disease to this genre, pure and simple, disgusting. Weak willed pathetic human beings, this customer base that supports this and the companies that deliver this crap product deserve each other.

Amazing how dumb players can be supporting b2p & f2p over a sub model.

So the “suits drom NCSoft” are the ones who decided to let players convert in-game currency into cash shop currency?

I will never EVER understand the gripe about the RNG weapon skins.

Imagine the RNG rewards as a Raffle system.

You enter the raffle because you want to win the new car….. but sadly…. you walk away with a basket of fruit.

The point is…. you are gambling.

If you are unhappy with the thought of losing, don’t put your money into the raffle.

You don’t see people lining up to complain after a raffle is over do you?

To do so would be acting childish and selfish.

Sore losers all around.

So you didn’t win the “big prize.”

Crying about it gets you absolutely nothing.

Better luck next time.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

You don’t see people lining up to complain after a raffle is over do you?

I don’t participate in raffles either. Generally, I only think it’s justified if the expected value is greater than one.

To do so would be acting childish and selfish.

That’s not an argument; that’s a shaming tactic.

Sore losers all around.

So you didn’t win the “big prize.”

Crying about it gets you absolutely nothing.

Better luck next time.

I’ve never purchased an RNG box. I know it’s hard to imagine on forums like these, but some people actually have principles, rather than only objecting to something when it doesn’t go their way.

Vayne.8563:

CoRtex.2157:

The problem is, any random dubai person can create an account -> create a lvl 1 char -> buy a Legendary. That’s how stupid it is. There’s is no point in getting a cool weapon, you are better of going to work for 3 hours instead of spending XXX hours in the game. Playing this game doesn’t mean anything, you buy it all with money. THAT’S NOT HOW GW1 WAS LIKE. You needed effort and practice to do these dungeons with organised groups and when you succesfuly did the dungeon you had a chance to get an epic drop. I miss that soooo much.

Do you mean NO ONE in Guild Wars 1 bought gold (illegally) and bought the mats to make obby armor? No one in Guild Wars 1 paid for runs to beat games (with gold that could have been bought the same way?). Do you really think every single person in Guild Wars 1 who had a tormented weapon beat DOA? Because I don’t.

In fact, I had a tormented weapon BEFORE I beat DOA. You could have just about everything in Guild Wars 1, and I mean just about everything by feather farming. You can miss Guild Wars 1 all you want, but at least be honest about it.

Yes, there you have it (illegally). = Easy trackable. But in GW2 it’s a feature in the game to buy gold. Paid runs? for what? a mission? no-one cares about missions. Yes you could get rich with feather farming. But you could get more rich if you used the feathers to create cons and do runs. Ofc, you still need a brain to able to do it. And that’s what games should be about. Using your brain & getting better in the game. = Actually playing the game. Even feather farming is playing the game. Anything better than opening your wallet, buying an item and go show it off. It destroys the meaning of an item.

Dante.1508:

I guess only time will tell, unless things change, obviously we have different opinions and tolerances to things.

But i’m not the only player that disagrees with these business practices.. Also the whole end of this game is about “Fluff” so when the whole end game becomes a cash grab how long do you think players will pay for fluff with nothing else to look forward too..

We do have different opinions… I could not care less about fluff and I love the “end game” in GW2… I only WvW and do the monthly content they add and it fills up my 20-30 hours a week in-game very fast.

I like the game a lot for what it is and what I do in it. The gem store fluff means nothing to me. Now if they add Ascended Armor to the game and you can ONLY get it by paying cash… then we can start this conversation back up and I’ll be fully on your side…

Zenith.7301:

To some people looks are more important than stat differences. You don’t get to say what is optional for people. Playing the game and going beyond lv10 is also optional — you don’t need to be lv80 as you can still play without issue pre-10.

I love how some morons seem to despise consumers for voicing their opinions aboout consumption.

You can’t get the dungeon armors pre 10…. You have to level up, get a group and complete said dungeon many times…

You want cool fluffy hat? Level up and get gold and use it to try and get said fluffy hat…

Consumers voicing opinions = AWESOME!
Consumers voicing incorrect information = Despise from those that know the truth.

Guns and Giblets.9308:

Vayne.8563

So you’re saying a company that ALREADY makes millions and millions of dollars each and every month, should go out and sell mounts and minis for $25 bucks as well. And that’s somehow okay?

What’s wrong with that? You more than anyone should know that MMOs are a business first. There’s nothing inherently wrong with selling more products, especially if those products serve a good business model that increases the quality of current and future products.

The issue is RNG. If someone objects to RNG boxes, then they will object to it in WoW. You’re not going to win this issue by so obviously shifting the goal posts with illogical comparisons.

What’s wrong with is the same thing as skins. They put the coolest most awesome mounts in the cash shop, and make it mega hard to get mounts in game, so that people who are already paying a monthly fee will want those cool awesome new mounts.

The thing is, they’re already making so much they could put them ALL in game. It’s not like they’re making so much new content every month. It’s pure greed.

Because Anet is a smaller company, and has no subscription fee, no one knows how much money they’re really need, but we do know how much they’re making on Guild Wars 2, because we see the investor reports every quarter. It’s a tiny tiny fraction of what Blizzard makes, even on just subs…but they put out more monthly content.

So yeah, can you say, categorically, that Anet could compete without having this RNG? Because as much as I dislike the RNG, I’m not sure that I can make that statement.

Blizzard, on the other hand, can EASILY have put those mounts in game for people, instead of putting them up just for cash.

It’s the very definition of greedy.

TooBz.3065:

Vayne.8563:

Villious.8530:

Vayne.8563:

Villious.8530:

Vayne.8563:

Villious.8530:

Ulitma Online, Everquest, Asheron’s Call, Asheron’s Call 2, Dark Age of Camelot, Everquest 2, World of Warcraft……I’ve never played an MMO that left a bad taste when it comes to this.

Now, if this is the future of MMO’s……I’m a saaad panda :-(

WoW has a monthly fee and STILL has a cash shop. Sorry but I think that’s massively greedy. Are you saying that WoW, with it’s 8.3 million subscribers, it used to be a lot more, making $15 for each of them every month has to also have a cash shop? I consider that the height of greed.

Dark Age of Camelot is an old and dead game. It had a monthly fee when it was 12 years old. It’s made a ton of money. So yeah, let’s take the monthly fee MMOs off, because you can’t compare them.

Compare it to buy to play or free to play MMOs that continually produce content. That’s ALL you can honestly compare it to, without being completely disingenuous.

And don’t go and bring Sony into this, because they’re as greedy as anyone.

Now look at the Turbine games. Go look at the Lotro cash shop, the DDO cash shop. Go look at AoC’s cash shop. Hell, in SWToR, which has gone free to play, you can barely walk without paying a fee. Go take a look at Runes of Magic’s cash shop. Anything by PW.

I don’t say you shouldn’t be annoyed by RNG, but you should at least be honest about comparisons.

I was just speaking to MY past experiences.
I give up. As always, you’re right.

It’s not about being right or wrong, not in this case. It’s about being realistic. A game produced 5-10 years ago is facing a completely different market than a game being produced today. The whole industry has changed. It’s more competitive. Everyone needs what edges they can get.

Do you really not think WoW is greedy for having a cash shop on top of a subscription fee?

If the cash shop is direct purchase, and not a slot machine, I’m ok with it.
If WoW is subscription and slot machine cash shop, then yes, it’s crazy greedy. I don’t have a problem with the cash shops. If done right, I’ll spend money in them. What I don’t like is the slot machine tactic. If they are going to use RNG, then put it IN the game as drops, not in the cash shop to get skins. That’s my preference.

So you’re saying a company that ALREADY makes millions and millions of dollars each and every month, should go out and sell mounts and minis for $25 bucks as well. And that’s somehow okay?

But Anet, that doesn’t have a subscription fee are the bad guys because some of the cosmetic skins are RNG?

We have a completely different set of morals. In no way does WoW need that kind of money to run their game. Half of it is put back into advertising. The company makes crazy money and STILL sells stuff for cash.

I don’t like RNG, but I hate a company that charges a monthly fee to millions of people and still has the gall to sell items, even cosmetic items outside of that.

The problem I have with RNG is that you disappoint 100 customers for each 1 that is happy. I don’t see how that’s a good business strategy.

I agree. Unless those who are disappointed are smart enough to learn to stop buying boxes and just go for skins already in the game. I’ve learned it.

Wetpaw.3487:

Anet is nothing more then a dog on a leash to these suits from NCSoft, the players and business models in the gaming industry that support this kind of RNG gamble are the disease to this genre, pure and simple, disgusting. Weak willed pathetic human beings, this customer base that supports this and the companies that deliver this crap product deserve each other.

Amazing how dumb players can be supporting b2p & f2p over a sub model.

Except that the sub model has it’s own flaws, but slowing everything down to a crawl to keep people playing and I don’t like those games at all. I’m not weak-willed because I dislike sub games. Nor am I pathetic.

See if you LIKE sub games, you’re fine, but why pay a sub for a game you don’t like. And I don’t like ANY of them. Because they all have to slow you down to the point where everything takes forever, to keep you playing. Free to play and buy to play games have to employ a different strategy, which obviously you don’t like.

Except some free to play games are buy to win, or lock content away behind cash purchases, (like Lotro) and DDO. Some rent mounts. The bottom line is, Guild Wars 2 didn’t go down the pay to win route, and there are skins being introduced out of the cash shop that aren’t RNG.

I like this game BETTER than the subscription games. I like most F2P games better, but most are too greedy for my taste. Guild Wars 2 is one of the better ones.

CoRtex.2157:

Vayne.8563:

CoRtex.2157:

The problem is, any random dubai person can create an account -> create a lvl 1 char -> buy a Legendary. That’s how stupid it is. There’s is no point in getting a cool weapon, you are better of going to work for 3 hours instead of spending XXX hours in the game. Playing this game doesn’t mean anything, you buy it all with money. THAT’S NOT HOW GW1 WAS LIKE. You needed effort and practice to do these dungeons with organised groups and when you succesfuly did the dungeon you had a chance to get an epic drop. I miss that soooo much.

Do you mean NO ONE in Guild Wars 1 bought gold (illegally) and bought the mats to make obby armor? No one in Guild Wars 1 paid for runs to beat games (with gold that could have been bought the same way?). Do you really think every single person in Guild Wars 1 who had a tormented weapon beat DOA? Because I don’t.

In fact, I had a tormented weapon BEFORE I beat DOA. You could have just about everything in Guild Wars 1, and I mean just about everything by feather farming. You can miss Guild Wars 1 all you want, but at least be honest about it.

Yes, there you have it (illegally). = Easy trackable. But in GW2 it’s a feature in the game to buy gold. Paid runs? for what? a mission? no-one cares about missions. Yes you could get rich with feather farming. But you could get more rich if you used the feathers to create cons and do runs. Ofc, you still need a brain to able to do it. And that’s what games should be about. Using your brain & getting better in the game. = Actually playing the game. Even feather farming is playing the game. Anything better than opening your wallet, buying an item and go show it off. It destroys the meaning of an item.

Different people play games for different reasons. I don’t know anyone who plays solitaire to get better at it. It’s easy enough to play and people play it as a distraction.

There are people who play “catch” and people who play baseball. One isn’t superior to another.

I don’t play games to get better at them. I play games to have fun. I consequently WILL get better at them, but it’s not why I play. It’s a side affect of playing.

So a person who worked 60 hours a week, wants to come in to play Guild Wars 2 and not be competitive and just kill stuff, and have a good time and buy some skins, those people are somehow not playing a game? Are they somehow inferior?

Your definition of why people play games works for you. It doesn’t work for everyone, however and may not even work for most people.

Vayne.8563:

Guns and Giblets.9308:

Vayne.8563

So you’re saying a company that ALREADY makes millions and millions of dollars each and every month, should go out and sell mounts and minis for $25 bucks as well. And that’s somehow okay?

What’s wrong with that? You more than anyone should know that MMOs are a business first. There’s nothing inherently wrong with selling more products, especially if those products serve a good business model that increases the quality of current and future products.

The issue is RNG. If someone objects to RNG boxes, then they will object to it in WoW. You’re not going to win this issue by so obviously shifting the goal posts with illogical comparisons.

What’s wrong with is the same thing as skins. They put the coolest most awesome mounts in the cash shop, and make it mega hard to get mounts in game, so that people who are already paying a monthly fee will want those cool awesome new mounts.

That’s not RNG. These are categorically different. You’re not following the argument.

The thing is, they’re already making so much they could put them ALL in game. It’s not like they’re making so much new content every month. It’s pure greed.

You’re repeating yourself and not interacting with what I said.

If it makes good business sense and provides a good product or service people are willing to pay for, then Blizzard has every incentive to do it. It’s like paying for art. That is nothing like paying for a small chance to get something.

Whether it is “greedy” depends on how the extra revenue is being used. You’re not in a position to know that.

So yeah, can you say, categorically, that Anet could compete without having this RNG? Because as much as I dislike the RNG, I’m not sure that I can make that statement.

That’s a non-sequitur. The ends do not justify the means.

Blizzard, on the other hand, can EASILY have put those mounts in game for people, instead of putting them up just for cash.

It’s the very definition of greedy.

Not on any meaningful definition of the term.

Guns and Giblets.9308:

Vayne.8563:

Guns and Giblets.9308:

Vayne.8563

So you’re saying a company that ALREADY makes millions and millions of dollars each and every month, should go out and sell mounts and minis for $25 bucks as well. And that’s somehow okay?

What’s wrong with that? You more than anyone should know that MMOs are a business first. There’s nothing inherently wrong with selling more products, especially if those products serve a good business model that increases the quality of current and future products.

The issue is RNG. If someone objects to RNG boxes, then they will object to it in WoW. You’re not going to win this issue by so obviously shifting the goal posts with illogical comparisons.

What’s wrong with is the same thing as skins. They put the coolest most awesome mounts in the cash shop, and make it mega hard to get mounts in game, so that people who are already paying a monthly fee will want those cool awesome new mounts.

That’s not RNG. These are categorically different. You’re not following the argument.

The thing is, they’re already making so much they could put them ALL in game. It’s not like they’re making so much new content every month. It’s pure greed.

You’re repeating yourself and not interacting with what I said.

If it makes good business sense and provides a good product or service people are willing to pay for, then Blizzard has every incentive to do it. It’s like paying for art. That is nothing like paying for a small chance to get something.

Whether it is “greedy” depends on how the extra revenue is being used. You’re not in a position to know that.

So yeah, can you say, categorically, that Anet could compete without having this RNG? Because as much as I dislike the RNG, I’m not sure that I can make that statement.

That’s a non-sequitur. The ends do not justify the means.

Blizzard, on the other hand, can EASILY have put those mounts in game for people, instead of putting them up just for cash.

It’s the very definition of greedy.

Not on any meaningful definition of the term.

Yes, RNG is categorically different, but I am in fact, reacting to what you said. Without knowing how much money Anet needs to run the game and create new content, we can’t know if RNG is greedy or not.

Unless you know for sure 100% that having stuff in the shop that isn’t RNG nets them enough money to keep going.

Blizzard…they have enough money to keep going many times over…but they want more money. Anet wants money too, but it is greed if that money is what they need to run the game. You don’t have an answer to that. Neither do I.

But it’s a question we should have some answer to before we start judging what is and isn’t greedy.

tolunart.2095:

TooBz.3065:

The problem I have with RNG is that you disappoint 100 customers for each 1 that is happy. I don’t see how that’s a good business strategy.

When the 100 players combined spend 10% as much as the one satisfied player, Anet has more to lose by driving him away than the 100.

Except next time that person might end up among those 100 dissapointed ones. RNG cash grabs are indeed a very good strategy, but mainly aimed at low retention high turnover environments (like browser games). You lose a ton of disappointed players, but you don’t care – they wouldn’t have stayed long anyway, and you get new ones in their place. That’s why you plan to get as much money from them as you can manage in the first try – because you might not have a second one.
In MMOs it may work well in the beginning, but if you plan for long time (and aim for your game to be a big one), you’d better stay away from it because it will eventually result in more players leaving than you can replace by new ones.
Small population games can get away with it. Bigger ones won’t.

Okay, one last time, since I still don’t think you understand the arguments on the table:

Vayne.8563:

Yes, RNG is categorically different, but I am in fact, reacting to what you said.

Not in a meaningful way. For example:

Without knowing how much money Anet needs to run the game and create new content, we can’t know if RNG is greedy or not.

I’ve already stated my position this on, as have others. If RNG is essentially or almost always greedy, it matters not whether this is necessary for Guild Wars 2 to stay afloat. The ends do not justify the means.

But it’s a question we should have some answer to before we start judging what is and isn’t greedy.

So you admit that calling Blizzard “very greedy” was wrong and a judgment you can’t make from your epistemological position?

Im Mudbone.1437:

Penguin.5197:

1200 gems? Thats 15 dollars >.> Is it just me or are the prices going up?

Gem store prices IMO are ALL grossly overpriced for what you get.

This i agree with, i only bought gems 2 times with money(was only $20) but it is absurd what the cost of pixels are. Im sure they would get more sales if things where more reasonable, but since they arnt i will purchase away using ingame gold.

Guns and Giblets.9308:

Okay, one last time, since I still don’t think you understand the arguments on the table:

Vayne.8563:

Yes, RNG is categorically different, but I am in fact, reacting to what you said.

Not in a meaningful way. For example:

Without knowing how much money Anet needs to run the game and create new content, we can’t know if RNG is greedy or not.

I’ve already stated my position this on, as have others. If RNG is essentially or almost always greedy, it matters not whether this is necessary for Guild Wars 2 to stay afloat. The ends do not justify the means.

But it’s a question we should have some answer to before we start judging what is and isn’t greedy.

So you admit that calling Blizzard “very greedy” was wrong and a judgment you can’t make from your epistemological position?

There’s no such thing as objective greed, only subjective greed. I see company X as greedy, and someone else doesn’t. That’s never going to change.

I think the difference FOR ME is that if someone needs money to run something and they can only get it with certain practices, it’s less greedy than a company who doesn’t need something and does something I don’t like in spite of that.

Like banks getting interest rate cuts and not passing on the full cuts to consumers with loans, even though they have record profits. That’s greedy. Greedy often depends on a situation.

You almost never hear of starving people trying to eek out a buck being greedy, because they’re starving people and they’re trying to eek out a buck. Whatever they do, it seems, to me, more justified than if a rich person did the same thing.

Just a matter of perspective I guess.

Guns and Giblets.9308:

Okay, one last time, since I still don’t think you understand the arguments on the table:

Vayne.8563:

Yes, RNG is categorically different, but I am in fact, reacting to what you said.

Not in a meaningful way. For example:

Without knowing how much money Anet needs to run the game and create new content, we can’t know if RNG is greedy or not.

I’ve already stated my position this on, as have others. If RNG is essentially or almost always greedy, it matters not whether this is necessary for Guild Wars 2 to stay afloat. The ends do not justify the means.

But it’s a question we should have some answer to before we start judging what is and isn’t greedy.

So you admit that calling Blizzard “very greedy” was wrong and a judgment you can’t make from your epistemological position?

Please, please, please everyone. Much of what all of you are saying is your opinion which you have every right to voice. In the end, however, they are just that; opinions.

Anet has the absolute right to structure their product in any way that they see fit. You either buy their product for what it is or you don’t.

Everyone here is voicing their opinions and that is good, but continually arguing your points is fruitless. Anet will take from this what they want.

In the end, Anet will do what is best for them and what they believe is the best for the continuance of Guild Wars 2. It doesn’t matter if any of us think that RNG is fair or not. They will continue with this until it is no longer good for them and the game.

If you do or do not like RNG, great. Voice your opinion on here and let it go knowing that you have given Anet your take on things. Arguing over all of this does no good however. It just makes all involved more frustrated.

I believe you all need to look at the game like a product. You either want it or not. I like Coca Cola products much more than I do Pepsi products. That doesn’t mean that I am writing to Pepsi and telling them what they need to change about their products to make it better for me. Either buy the product and accept it for what it is or not.

Vayne.8563:

There’s no such thing as objective greed, only subjective greed. I see company X as greedy, and someone else doesn’t. That’s never going to change.

Only a certain set of scholars, like Michael Ruse, would agree. Here’s how everyone else in the world sees it:

It’s always, categorically wrong to use certain methods of obtaining money. Oppressing the poor to obtain wealth is always wrong. Lining your pockets through fraud and deceit is always wrong. Employing character assassins to eliminate corporate competition and create a monopoly is always wrong.

Less serious: preying on the emotions of participants in gambling scenarios where: (1) the expected value is less than one, and (2) the participants do not fully understand that their investment is not going to see a good return, is always wrong. In ArenaNet’s case, this is additionally problematic in that this monetization policy does not engender long-term loyalty, a core element of any successful MMORPG.

I think the difference FOR ME is that if someone needs money to run something and they can only get it with certain practices, it’s less greedy than a company who doesn’t need something and does something I don’t like in spite of that.

On your schema, need is also subjective.

Whatever they do, it seems, to me, more justified than if a rich person did the same thing.

Just a matter of perspective I guess.

I’d buy that if you would post that way. Instead, you said that Blizzard’s actions were the “very definition” of greedy. That’s invoking categories as if they were objective and normative.

If everything moral reduces to subjective opinion, then it doesn’t matter what any company does to make a buck. That’s scary. It also means no meaningful conversations can be had on this subject.

jheryn.8390:

If you do or do not like RNG, great. Voice your opinion on here and let it go knowing that you have given Anet your take on things. Arguing over all of this does no good however. It just makes all involved more frustrated.

As you wish.

Vayne.8563:

Villious.8530:

Vayne.8563:

Villious.8530:

Vayne.8563:

Villious.8530:

Ulitma Online, Everquest, Asheron’s Call, Asheron’s Call 2, Dark Age of Camelot, Everquest 2, World of Warcraft……I’ve never played an MMO that left a bad taste when it comes to this.

Now, if this is the future of MMO’s……I’m a saaad panda :-(

WoW has a monthly fee and STILL has a cash shop. Sorry but I think that’s massively greedy. Are you saying that WoW, with it’s 8.3 million subscribers, it used to be a lot more, making $15 for each of them every month has to also have a cash shop? I consider that the height of greed.

Dark Age of Camelot is an old and dead game. It had a monthly fee when it was 12 years old. It’s made a ton of money. So yeah, let’s take the monthly fee MMOs off, because you can’t compare them.

Compare it to buy to play or free to play MMOs that continually produce content. That’s ALL you can honestly compare it to, without being completely disingenuous.

And don’t go and bring Sony into this, because they’re as greedy as anyone.

Now look at the Turbine games. Go look at the Lotro cash shop, the DDO cash shop. Go look at AoC’s cash shop. Hell, in SWToR, which has gone free to play, you can barely walk without paying a fee. Go take a look at Runes of Magic’s cash shop. Anything by PW.

I don’t say you shouldn’t be annoyed by RNG, but you should at least be honest about comparisons.

I was just speaking to MY past experiences.
I give up. As always, you’re right.

It’s not about being right or wrong, not in this case. It’s about being realistic. A game produced 5-10 years ago is facing a completely different market than a game being produced today. The whole industry has changed. It’s more competitive. Everyone needs what edges they can get.

Do you really not think WoW is greedy for having a cash shop on top of a subscription fee?

If the cash shop is direct purchase, and not a slot machine, I’m ok with it.
If WoW is subscription and slot machine cash shop, then yes, it’s crazy greedy. I don’t have a problem with the cash shops. If done right, I’ll spend money in them. What I don’t like is the slot machine tactic. If they are going to use RNG, then put it IN the game as drops, not in the cash shop to get skins. That’s my preference.

So you’re saying a company that ALREADY makes millions and millions of dollars each and every month, should go out and sell mounts and minis for $25 bucksas well. And that’s somehow okay?
.

That’s the reason million player leaving WOW.
Subscription game sell anything in game with $ are bad.
P2P/F2P sell anything with RNG in game also bad.
Most people’s memerable wow, is the wow before Lichking.

No Walking.6349:

Gee…I’m so glad that Anet took an amazing franchise and turned it into a money grubbing RNG fest. Remember when cool items used to cost time, and not money… Glad to see all the people running around with these weapons and know that they spent no effort to get them at all, but instead just opened their wallet.

Time is money, friend.

For all the arguments and whatnot, I’ll simply say that the monetization of Guild Wars 2 has turned me off completely from the game. I’m someone who can and will buy little goodies from markets, but GW2 has taken it to a different level. You’re now buying chances at goodies.

I’ve written before that there’s a small difference between utilizing operant conditioning with variable ratio schedules and abusing the system with inverse effects. Whoever makes the decisions on the gem store has crossed into a territory that just makes GW2 an internet punchline.

Get your act together, Anet.

Mastruq.2463:

No Walking.6349:

Gee…I’m so glad that Anet took an amazing franchise and turned it into a money grubbing RNG fest. Remember when cool items used to cost time, and not money… Glad to see all the people running around with these weapons and know that they spent no effort to get them at all, but instead just opened their wallet.

Time is money, friend.

yes it was one of Einsteins greatest theorems.
http://www.hoornaert.net/files/images/Cartoon_Larson_Einstein_1_0.gif

Guns and Giblets.9308:

Vayne.8563:

There’s no such thing as objective greed, only subjective greed. I see company X as greedy, and someone else doesn’t. That’s never going to change.

Only a certain set of scholars, like Michael Ruse, would agree. Here’s how everyone else in the world sees it:

It’s always, categorically wrong to use certain methods of obtaining money. Oppressing the poor to obtain wealth is always wrong. Lining your pockets through fraud and deceit is always wrong. Employing character assassins to eliminate corporate competition and create a monopoly is always wrong.

Less serious: preying on the emotions of participants in gambling scenarios where: (1) the expected value is less than one, and (2) the participants do not fully understand that their investment is not going to see a good return, is always wrong. In ArenaNet’s case, this is additionally problematic in that this monetization policy does not engender long-term loyalty, a core element of any successful MMORPG.

I think the difference FOR ME is that if someone needs money to run something and they can only get it with certain practices, it’s less greedy than a company who doesn’t need something and does something I don’t like in spite of that.

On your schema, need is also subjective.

Whatever they do, it seems, to me, more justified than if a rich person did the same thing.

Just a matter of perspective I guess.

I’d buy that if you would post that way. Instead, you said that Blizzard’s actions were the “very definition” of greedy. That’s invoking categories as if they were objective and normative.

If everything moral reduces to subjective opinion, then it doesn’t matter what any company does to make a buck. That’s scary. It also means no meaningful conversations can be had on this subject.

Robin Hood stole from the rich to give to the poor, but it was still stealing. A lot of times there’s context. There’s also social context. Everything you said is based on your upbringing in your society. No the things you said are always wrong aren’t always wrong. Right and wrong are social constructs. As situations change, right and wrong changes. But this isn’t about philosophy anyway.

Anet isn’t robbing people. They’re creating a situation where they can make money. Because we don’t know how much money they need to run the game, we can’t tell if they’re being greedy or not. If they’re doing it to pay employees so they can create more content, it’s not greedy in my opinion.

WoW, on the other hand, I find immensely greedy because they charge a monthly fee for a game that probably could exist quite well without one, and on top of that they elect to charge people for cool stuff they can’t get in game. That seems greedy TO ME.

What Anet is doing, if they don’t need to do it to support the game, I’d consider greedy. If they have, as some people claim, a shrinking population, then it’s sorta less greedy because they have employees to pay. I don’t know one way or another.

So I can’t judge. But I can judge WoW, because I know with the money they make they can run the game without charging people extra for cool stuff. It’s a decision I find to be completely greedy.

It gives them an unfair advantage over every single MMO out. You want to know why this genre has stagnated for so many years. WoW’s success is the answer. It’s certainly not a monopoly but with the money they have, how many companies can make a game with enough content to even TRY to stand against them.

As far as I’m concerned the popularity of WoW is why the MMO space is so screwed up.

Vayne.8563:

Robin Hood stole from the rich to give to the poor, but it was still stealing. A lot of times there’s context. There’s also social context. Everything you said is based on your upbringing in your society. No the things you said are always wrong aren’t always wrong. Right and wrong are social constructs. As situations change, right and wrong changes. But this isn’t about philosophy anyway.

Ethics is philosophy. Our fundamental philosophical differences are what prevent us from having any meaningful conversation about RNG boxes. It’s what leads these forums to devolve into shouting matches, where whoever can restate their position with the most force wins the argument; when that doesn’t work, people turn to darker methods. This is what happens when all that’s left are opinions rather than objective standards. MacIntyre wins again.

Or we could just go around and round like this: It’s your opinion that right and wrong are social constructs. Lots of people disagree with you. Your opinion doesn’t make it so. (See how easy that is.)

What I find most interesting is that you are arguing there are times when it is completely acceptable for a company to oppress the poor (or in the case of AreanNet, the mathematically ignorant) in order to make a profit.