Guild Wars 2

If you primarly play WvW its unlikely you would reach the cap anyway. Lets say the cap would be 10000 AP it would take 2000 days @ 5AP per day, over 5 years. At 20k cap it would already be over 10 years.
Making dailies give AP was a horrible idea from the start to say the least. Now that the damage is done anet can only limit the damage.

Wait wait wait wait wait.

All the grinds in the game. All the ridiculous crafting recipes and currency costs.

And to reduce grind, you’re campaigning against… optional daily achievements? A grind that serves no purpose other than to put you on a leaderboard that is literally the “people who grind the most” leaderboard??

It’s not about the leaderboard I swear, I only check it 2-10 times a week to see if others are doing their dailies and are about to catch up with me.

uh oh, player x only has 15 points less than me, I better make sure I don’t miss any daily. hmmm, player y is only 15 points ahead of me, if I work hard and don’t miss any daily and they miss a few I can catch them.

This is the mentality of those who want the change, but deny the leaderboard has anything to do with it.
If the leaderboard is not the issue, I wonder why its one of the most mentioned things in this thread.

If its not about the leaderboards, why are you checking it all the time. If its not about the leaderboard, how do you know what players x and y have?
If its not about the leaderboards, why do you want to take away possible ap people can earn in a day?
Just because some believe their own lies, doesn’t mean everyone does.
Its nonsense like this that makes the claims on this thread a joke.

I don’t really understand the appeal of capping Daily/Monthly AP points for the general population. If there is a cap, then eventually everyone (that continues to play) will reach the cap. There is already a hard cap on all other Achievements. So…everyone is equal, then. No one ‘leads’ points on the Leaderboard in any category except Living Story APs.

So, the solution to ‘there are too many APs to do daily’ is to make everyone compete for the LS APs? Aren’t those capped, as well? What, exactly, would be the point of the Leaderboards be, then? Just to see who has done every achievement up to that point (after reaching the cap)?

If, after a certain amount of time, everyone will be equal, and Leaderboards will mean nothing, as all will be tied at number 1 in points, why not just stop doing anything you feel ‘slave’ to, or you feel is too time-consuming, or too ‘grindy’, or whatever is causing distress? It matters not after a certain period of time if there is a cap.

Or is it that the cap should be close enough to those that have nearly reached it, that they can now sit back and just wait for others to catch up? Giving them the top spots, until interest dies down?

A cap would only really be fair if it had been implemented at the beginning of the game….or the cap should be high enough (say 100,000 pts) that no one should be able to coast from now (or the near future) on.

Again, if it isn’t about the Leaderboard, then why continue to cause yourself distress, as that is a personal choice. If it is some personality quirk that causes one to do things one finds distressful, then seeking help outside of changing the implementation of certain parts of the game to alleviate distress to a certain small sub-group might be more desirable.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

If it is some personality quirk that causes one to do things one finds distressful, then seeking help outside of changing the implementation of certain parts of the game to alleviate distress to a certain small sub-group might be more desirable.

Sure. The solution in such case is easy and simple. There is no reason to debate about it. Just quit playing the game. Which I did. But is it unreasonable to discuss about possible changes to the game that would make some people not quit or come back to play again? I am not the first and not the last who stopped playing GW2 only becouse of the daily grind compulsion. I am open to drop the case for good if someone will convince me that introducing daily AP cap (and a fairly large one) is bad for the majority of game’s population. Becouse at the moment some people are claiming that the AP cap would be a blow to everyone aside from a small minority of AP farmers. I am ready to agree on the “small minority” part. I am not ready however to agree that the change would be bad for everyone else. If that would be the case, why there was no outcry when AreneNet decided to cap the ininite salvage and dungeon runner achievements? Wasnt this “taking away freedom” from people who wanted to salvage 10,000,000 items or run 9001 CoF1 to gain their AP? Why that change was apparently needed and why same reason cant be applied to daily AP?

Awe.1096:

If that would be the case, why there was no outcry when AreneNet decided to cap the ininite salvage and dungeon runner achievements? Wasnt this “taking away freedom” from people who wanted to salvage 10,000,000 items or run 9001 CoF1 to gain their AP? Why that change was apparently needed and why same reason cant be applied to daily AP?

Simple. Almost everyone in this game does dailies. Only a minority (and an extremely small minority) was salvaging 10 mil items or running 9001 CoF. One is not like the other.

3554091

Simple. Almost everyone in this game does dailies. Only a minority (and an extremely small minority) was salvaging 10 mil items or running 9001 CoF. One is not like the other.

I want to see how many players in GW2 will actually reach the treshold of 25,000 AP from dailies alone. Almost everyone?

Awe.1096:

3554091

Simple. Almost everyone in this game does dailies. Only a minority (and an extremely small minority) was salvaging 10 mil items or running 9001 CoF. One is not like the other.

I want to see how many players in GW2 will actually reach the treshold of 25,000 AP from dailies alone. Almost everyone?

Very few, even if the game stays for very long. I’d really like the daily APs to be limited in some manner, and the better solution (imho) I came up to is the following:

Progressive cap

Principle: Past X total points from dailies, dailies does not award anymore APs. Every month, the cap X is increased by 500 (numbers are purely indicative. Its meant to be a bit smaller than the maximum one can earn in a month, which is currently around 600)

Players affected: Dailies farmers only. As long as the numbers are correctly set (first cap and monthly increase), only the players that heavily farmed dailies since release will reach the threshold

• To reach the threshold, one has to have a large amount of APs from dailies AND consistently do more dailies than the monthly increase
• Even if a player reaches the cap, he will still be able to increase his AP score the following month
• The system is rather simple, yet effective and does not punish hardcore players, even on the long term
• It is also more flexible than a hard cap

Please tell me me if you see any flaw in this system. The more I think about it, the more it seems to do only what its meant to: slow down the grind for AP farmers without affecting other players.

Awe.1096:

3554091

Simple. Almost everyone in this game does dailies. Only a minority (and an extremely small minority) was salvaging 10 mil items or running 9001 CoF. One is not like the other.

I want to see how many players in GW2 will actually reach the treshold of 25,000 AP from dailies alone. Almost everyone?

It seems to be that the only thing more ridiculous than capping peoples dailies is adding a cap they can never reach anyhow.

Yamiga.7863:

Awe.1096:

3554091

Simple. Almost everyone in this game does dailies. Only a minority (and an extremely small minority) was salvaging 10 mil items or running 9001 CoF. One is not like the other.

I want to see how many players in GW2 will actually reach the treshold of 25,000 AP from dailies alone. Almost everyone?

Very few, even if the game stays for very long. I’d really like the daily APs to be limited in some manner, and the better solution (imho) I came up to is the following:

Progressive cap

Principle: Past X total points from dailies, dailies does not award anymore APs. Every month, the cap X is increased by 500 (numbers are purely indicative. Its meant to be a bit smaller than the maximum one can earn in a month, which is currently around 600)

Players affected: Dailies farmers only. As long as the numbers are correctly set (first cap and monthly increase), only the players that heavily farmed dailies since release will reach the threshold

• To reach the threshold, one has to have a large amount of APs from dailies AND consistently do more dailies than the monthly increase
• Even if a player reaches the cap, he will still be able to increase his AP score the following month
• The system is rather simple, yet effective and does not punish hardcore players, even on the long term
• It is also more flexible than a hard cap

Please tell me me if you see any flaw in this system.

Major flaw. You’re deliberately hurting players that farm dailies daily. No one has given an explanation as to why their style of play is so superior to those that prefer farming dailies that they can punish those that choose to farm dailies. What gives you the right to decide how other people should gather their APs?

VOLKON.1290:

Awe.1096:

3554091

Simple. Almost everyone in this game does dailies. Only a minority (and an extremely small minority) was salvaging 10 mil items or running 9001 CoF. One is not like the other.

I want to see how many players in GW2 will actually reach the treshold of 25,000 AP from dailies alone. Almost everyone?

It seems to be that the only thing more ridiculous than capping peoples dailies is adding a cap they can never reach anyhow.

Again. You just dont understand a different mentality. For me there is a huge difference between having 6,000 points out of 500,000 and 6,000 points out of infinity. With the infinity model there is no finish line and goal to aim at. Well technically there is a finish line but it gets moved ahead every singly day so technically if you never reached it you never will becouse it escapes at same speed as you can chase it. With the current daily model, every single day when I do not complete all dailies, I have a feeling of a loss. With the fixed finish line model (even if the finish line is very far and not likely to be reached) all I can do is feel progress. If I dont play GW2 for one day I do not feel the loss becouse the finish line didnt moved an inch and is not escaping me like in the infinity model. With the infinity model every day I do not launch GW2 and complete all dailies I have a feeling of being punished becouse my goal just moved ahead and I can’t “speed up” the other day to make up for it. It’s is not about me vs. other people on the silly leaderboard. It is about me vs. the game’s progression line. Player vs. player competition is zero-sum. For someone to win someone must loose. But fixed progression path is not zero-sum, I can only “win” by moving ahead on the path and getting closer to my goal. If however my goal is escaping me at same speed as I am chasing it (as we have it now) it becomes stressful and compulsive. As I said before, I was not the first who quit solely becouse of this and will not be the last. If there is a possibility to make changes that would keep some players like me in the game and allow them to enjoy it without making other people get upset and quit (would you quit if the daily cap got introduced? would it affect your game fun?), why not debate about it?

VOLKON.1290:

Major flaw. You’re deliberately hurting players that farm dailies daily. No one has given an explanation as to why their style of play is so superior to those that prefer farming dailies that they can punish those that choose to farm dailies. What gives you the right to decide how other people should gather their APs?

Do you really think some people choose to farm the dailies without going for permanent achievements? I have yet to heard about them. The only people I’ve heard of that are heavily farming dailies since launch are AP farmers which, like me, go for every single achievement in the game. Only those players are affected by my proposition.

With the current system you can’t get all the dailies without spending a lot of time specifically towards it every day. Actually even the most dedicated players (to AP-hunt) tends to skip some of the new sPvP dailies because they take forever. The progressing cap would be equivalent to skipping 3-4 dailies/day for hardcore farmers only . Or fully missing 4-5 days/month.

And for the last part: I’m not deciding how other people should gather APs, I’m proposing to balance my playstyle. If my system is implemented I’ll be one of the firsts to hit the cap.

Yamiga.7863:

And for the last part: I’m not deciding how other people should gather APs, I’m proposing to balance my playstyle. If my system is implemented I’ll be one of the firsts to hit the cap.

Oh please. It isn’t your playstyle you want to “balance.” It’s the playstyle of those around you. If you just wanted to affect your playstyle, then you would just do the dailies you wanted to do. No, it’s not that you just don’t want to do all of the dailies. You don’t want anyone to be able to do them.

@Awe:

Set a different goal. Problem solved.

Subdue.5479:

Set a different goal. Problem solved.

I solved my problem by stopping playing GW2 and redirecting my focus on to something else (and yes, I am still focusing on achievements as I did pretty much ever since achievements in games were “invented”). But is it a sin to keep advocating for a change that would allow me to enjoy GW2 again? I still believe that mechanics-wise GW2 is currently the best MMO on the market (some will agree, some will not). However the sole issue of infinite daily AP makes it pretty much unplayable for me at this point. As much as it may be shocking to someone, there are people like me who base their long-term commitment to an MMO on the achievement system it offers. It’s my way of playing same as someone may like to focus on farming legendaries or doing sPvP all day long. I dont judge their priorities. And before you respond with the usual “nobody cares, nobody wants you here, get out and give me your stuff on your way out”, think again. Becouse one day someone may handle you in the same way when you will have your own grievances with a game.

Subdue.5479:

Yamiga.7863:

And for the last part: I’m not deciding how other people should gather APs, I’m proposing to balance my playstyle. If my system is implemented I’ll be one of the firsts to hit the cap.

Oh please. It isn’t your playstyle you want to “balance.” It’s the playstyle of those around you. If you just wanted to affect your playstyle, then you would just do the dailies you wanted to do. No, it’s not that you just don’t want to do all of the dailies. You don’t want anyone to be able to do them.

My playstyle is to get every achievement point I can.“just do the dailies I want to” would mean completely changing my playstyle, therefore is not a solution. Changing how many APs I get from dailies is.
Additionnaly, every AP farmer I know agree that the current daily system is broken for our playstyle, which means every player I know that my proposition would affect (“those around me”) are actually wanting it.

Awe.1096:

Again. You just dont understand a different mentality. For me there is a huge difference between having 6,000 points out of 500,000 and 6,000 points out of infinity. With the infinity model there is no finish line and goal to aim at. Well technically there is a finish line but it gets moved ahead every singly day so technically if you never reached it you never will becouse it escapes at same speed as you can chase it. With the current daily model, every single day when I do not complete all dailies, I have a feeling of a loss. With the fixed finish line model (even if the finish line is very far and not likely to be reached) all I can do is feel progress. If I dont play GW2 for one day I do not feel the loss becouse the finish line didnt moved an inch and is not escaping me like in the infinity model. With the infinity model every day I do not launch GW2 and complete all dailies I have a feeling of being punished becouse my goal just moved ahead and I can’t “speed up” the other day to make up for it. It’s is not about me vs. other people on the silly leaderboard. It is about me vs. the game’s progression line. Player vs. player competition is zero-sum. For someone to win someone must loose. But fixed progression path is not zero-sum, I can only “win” by moving ahead on the path and getting closer to my goal. If however my goal is escaping me at same speed as I am chasing it (as we have it now) it becomes stressful and compulsive. As I said before, I was not the first who quit solely becouse of this and will not be the last. If there is a possibility to make changes that would keep some players like me in the game and allow them to enjoy it without making other people get upset and quit (would you quit if the daily cap got introduced? would it affect your game fun?), why not debate about it?

To be honest, it probably wouldn’t affect me personally. However, it undoubtedly would affect others. Would it cause others to quit as you claim to have allegedly done, I don’t know, I’m not them. But you would affect others.

Personally, I find it harder to sympathize with people that claim to quit because they’re not restricted in their game play than with those that would quit because of new restrictions added that weren’t there before.

@Awe.1096, Yamiga.7863

You can play the game any way you want. MMOs, especially in the case of GW2, are about enjoying the game the way you want to enjoy it. What bothers me about the specific change(s) that you guys are clamoring for is that they don’t affect gameplay at all. Nothing hinders you from playing the way you want to play now, without those changes implemented.

That means that there are two reasons why you might want to have these changes implemented. You might, rationally but maliciously, want to limit competition on the leaderboard, thus making it easier to maintain your place. Personally, I think the way the leaderboard is setup right now is already broken enough as it is, and really needs a major overhaul (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/The-AP-Leaderboard-Sucks-Let-s-Fix-It), but the change you suggest makes it worse, not better. Or, you might irrationally be trying to deal with your own neurosis by changing the game. If that’s the case, if this really is a mental illness for you, it really might be a good idea to step back. But that’s still not a reason to change the game.

Yamiga.7863:

VOLKON.1290:

Major flaw. You’re deliberately hurting players that farm dailies daily. No one has given an explanation as to why their style of play is so superior to those that prefer farming dailies that they can punish those that choose to farm dailies. What gives you the right to decide how other people should gather their APs?

Do you really think some people choose to farm the dailies without going for permanent achievements? I have yet to heard about them. The only people I’ve heard of that are heavily farming dailies since launch are AP farmers which, like me, go for every single achievement in the game. Only those players are affected by my proposition.

With the current system you can’t get all the dailies without spending a lot of time specifically towards it every day. Actually even the most dedicated players (to AP-hunt) tends to skip some of the new sPvP dailies because they take forever. The progressing cap would be equivalent to skipping 3-4 dailies/day for hardcore farmers only . Or fully missing 4-5 days/month.

And for the last part: I’m not deciding how other people should gather APs, I’m proposing to balance my playstyle. If my system is implemented I’ll be one of the firsts to hit the cap.

Your claim that you’re only proposing to balance your style fails for two reasons.

1. It’s not only your style. Whomever you are, you aren’t qualified to impose restrictions on others or to negatively affect others choices of how to play.

2. Balance your own play style. If you need added restrictions put in the game to do that then odds are it’s not the system that’s at fault.

Subdue.5479:

@Awe.1096, Yamiga.7863

You can play the game any way you want. MMOs, especially in the case of GW2, are about enjoying the game the way you want to enjoy it. What bothers me about the specific change(s) that you guys are clamoring for is that they don’t affect gameplay at all. Nothing hinders you from playing the way you want to play now, without those changes implemented.

That means that there are two reasons why you might want to have these changes implemented. You might, rationally but maliciously, want to limit competition on the leaderboard, thus making it easier to maintain your place. Personally, I think the way the leaderboard is setup right now is already broken enough as it is, and really needs a major overhaul (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/The-AP-Leaderboard-Sucks-Let-s-Fix-It), but the change you suggest makes it worse, not better. Or, you might irrationally be trying to deal with your own neurosis by changing the game. If that’s the case, if this really is a mental illness for you, it really might be a good idea to step back. But that’s still not a reason to change the game.

You’re missing the point. Completely. I could care less about the leaderboard, competition or anything like that. I’m playing for the personal satisfaction of completing achievements, like I do on most games I play (I even went for Civilization V ones lol). In GW2 achievement points act as a global meta-achievement, therefore I’m trying to earn them as much as I can, including dailies.
This is a all or nothing playstyle, and the current state of dailies actually does “hinders me from playing the way I want to play” because it takes a lot of time (not skill) to do them all every day, and missing one or two of them just because I don’t have time is really frustrating, to a point its almost not fun aymore.
The proposition I made would fix that without any impact on anyone but AP farmers, people that share my completionist playstyle.

Yamiga.7863:

Subdue.5479:

@Awe.1096, Yamiga.7863

You can play the game any way you want. MMOs, especially in the case of GW2, are about enjoying the game the way you want to enjoy it. What bothers me about the specific change(s) that you guys are clamoring for is that they don’t affect gameplay at all. Nothing hinders you from playing the way you want to play now, without those changes implemented.

That means that there are two reasons why you might want to have these changes implemented. You might, rationally but maliciously, want to limit competition on the leaderboard, thus making it easier to maintain your place. Personally, I think the way the leaderboard is setup right now is already broken enough as it is, and really needs a major overhaul (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/The-AP-Leaderboard-Sucks-Let-s-Fix-It), but the change you suggest makes it worse, not better. Or, you might irrationally be trying to deal with your own neurosis by changing the game. If that’s the case, if this really is a mental illness for you, it really might be a good idea to step back. But that’s still not a reason to change the game.

You’re missing the point. Completely. I could care less about the leaderboard, competition or anything like that. I’m playing for the personal satisfaction of completing achievements, like I do on most games I play (I even went for Civilization V ones lol). In GW2 achievement points act as a global meta-achievement, therefore I’m trying to earn them as much as I can, including dailies.
This is a all or nothing playstyle, and the current state of dailies actually does “hinders me from playing the way I want to play” because it takes a lot of time (not skill) to do them all every day, and missing one or two of them just because I don’t have time is really frustrating, to a point its almost not fun aymore.
The proposition I made would fix that without any impact on anyone but AP farmers, people that share my completionist playstyle.

If it’s an all or nothing sort of deal and has nothing to do with the leaderboard or your position on it, why not just forgo the dailies altogether and focus on completing all the permanent achievements?

VOLKON.1290:

Your claim that you’re only proposing to balance your style fails for two reasons.

1. It’s not only your style. Whomever you are, you aren’t qualified to impose restrictions on others or to negatively affect others choices of how to play.

2. Balance your own play style. If you need added restrictions put in the game to do that then odds are it’s not the system that’s at fault.

1. I’m not imposing anything, I’m proposing. People that share my playstyle (=players affected by my proposition) are completely free to disagree, but every AP famer I know actually want that kind of change to be implemented.
2. It was balanced for a while but then the system was changed. Hence the system is at fault. Isn’t it legit to change the system to fix a problem caused by a change in the system?

If Player A is ranked 100 on the leaderboard and is willing to spend 18 hours a day doing dailies and other achievements to move up, should he not be allowed to because Player B can’t handle the mental pressure of not doing all the dailies, but also is unwilling to devote the same amount of time and effort?

I like having a lot of daily points available. I couldn’t play for a year so it helps me catch up to people who have been playing all that time but only do the 5 a day.

Subdue.5479:

If Player A is ranked 100 on the leaderboard and is willing to spend 18 hours a day doing dailies and other achievements to move up, should he not be allowed to because Player B can’t handle the mental pressure of not doing all the dailies, but also is unwilling to devote the same amount of time and effort?

He shouldnt be allowed too. Game companies should take some responsibility and not add stuff which encourage playing an unhealthy amount per day. There are diminshing returns on all kind of PvE stuff so its not worth doing anymore after a few hours, so I dont see how there shouldnt be something to discourage people from playing 18h a day to do dailies. The 4-6 hours a day are already beyond unacceptable. If nothing changes by release of TESO there is a good chance I will leave because the achievement system looks to be much better.

bwillb.2165:

I like having a lot of daily points available. I couldn’t play for a year so it helps me catch up to people who have been playing all that time but only do the 5 a day.

I dont see how a hardcap on dailies/montlies/living story would change this

Malediktus.9250:

bwillb.2165:

I like having a lot of daily points available. I couldn’t play for a year so it helps me catch up to people who have been playing all that time but only do the 5 a day.

I dont see how a hardcap on dailies/montlies/living story would change this

If there’s a cap, and people are hitting the cap, then it’s impossible to catch up. If there’s a cap, and most people aren’t hitting the cap but I am, then I’m catching up much slower. If there’s a cap, and no one is hitting the cap, then the cap was wasted development time.

if there is a cap its possible to catch up, you logic is wrong

Malediktus.9250:

if there is a cap its possible to catch up, you logic is wrong

So you’re quite happy to penalize people that currently get numbers that may exceed a hypothesized cap because you disagree with how they play the game?

I miss you guys <3

aww, my thread was archived

VOLKON.1290:

Malediktus.9250:

if there is a cap its possible to catch up, you logic is wrong

So you’re quite happy to penalize people that currently get numbers that may exceed a hypothesized cap because you disagree with how they play the game?

Indeed, I am happy to do so. There are already so many “penalizing mechanics” (eye of the beholder) in this game, one more wont hurt.

Malediktus.9250:

Subdue.5479:

If Player A is ranked 100 on the leaderboard and is willing to spend 18 hours a day doing dailies and other achievements to move up, should he not be allowed to because Player B can’t handle the mental pressure of not doing all the dailies, but also is unwilling to devote the same amount of time and effort?

He shouldnt be allowed too. Game companies should take some responsibility and not add stuff which encourage playing an unhealthy amount per day. There are diminshing returns on all kind of PvE stuff so its not worth doing anymore after a few hours, so I dont see how there shouldnt be something to discourage people from playing 18h a day to do dailies. The 4-6 hours a day are already beyond unacceptable. If nothing changes by release of TESO there is a good chance I will leave because the achievement system looks to be much better.

Hmm… diminishing returns? You mean like rewarding the laurel, karma, and mystic coin after 5 dailies?

At least you’re honest that your goal is to penalize players who are willing to out-perform you.

william dj.6953:

Would the changes make those at the top to the leader board. Easier or Harder to maintain that position?

By capping the possible achievement points from dailies, it makes it harder to maintain the top positions. It might actually make the leaderboard meaningful.

It seems counter-intuitive, but here is my reasoning:

If dailies are capped, I fully expect that ANet would remove the glut of daily points across all achievement scores, the same way they did for Agent of Entropy ages ago. If ANet didn’t remove those points, there would be almost no opportunity for anyone to ever catch the leaders (not that there’s much chance now, but at least the possibility exists).

When that happens, suddenly the achievement score range across the whole game, and notably on the leaderboard, becomes much narrower.

Yes, the people at the top will have to maintain doing 5 dailies (assuming the cap is set at 5) instead of 10 or more, which will be easier. However, they will also have to pursue increasingly difficult permanent achievements to maintain or increase their lead.

The primary problem with this idea, and (I suspect) the reason why ANet hasn’t done anything to address it yet, is that any reduction to achievement scores has the potential to really screw up the achievement-related reward system.

Vick.6805:

william dj.6953:

Would the changes make those at the top to the leader board. Easier or Harder to maintain that position?

By capping the possible achievement points from dailies, it makes it harder to maintain the top positions. It might actually make the leaderboard meaningful.

It seems counter-intuitive, but here is my reasoning:

If dailies are capped, I fully expect that ANet would remove the glut of daily points across all achievement scores, the same way they did for Agent of Entropy ages ago. If ANet didn’t remove those points, there would be almost no opportunity for anyone to ever catch the leaders (not that there’s much chance now, but at least the possibility exists).

When that happens, suddenly the achievement score range across the whole game, and notably on the leaderboard, becomes much narrower.

Yes, the people at the top will have to maintain doing 5 dailies (assuming the cap is set at 5) instead of 10 or more, which will be easier. However, they will also have to pursue increasingly difficult permanent achievements to maintain or increase their lead.

The primary problem with this idea, and (I suspect) the reason why ANet hasn’t done anything to address it yet, is that any reduction to achievement scores has the potential to really screw up the achievement-related reward system.

I’ve been thinking about this since a previous person brought up the argument, and it’s actually quite the opposite. Any person who wants to climb the leaderboard (read climb, not already at the top of), benefits from an abundance of available, temporary points. Temporary points pressure those at the top to keep working and allow climbers to gain ground when those sitting at the top slack off, since those points can’t be made up. This is in contrast to permanent points, which can be made up at any time.

It is true that if dailies were removed, the total number of points available, and therefore, the average number of points between competitors would constrict. This would give the illusion of gaining ground. However, in reality, little to no ground would be gained, the rate of AP acquisition for everyone would remain equal, the only difference being that it would be impossible to “lose” points, thus making those at the top further entrenched.

Furthermore, it is very unlikely that A.Net will reverse the achievement points from dailies, as they were intended to be available in those amounts for the time investment required of them. This is not the same as the salvage achievements, which allowed players to gain mountains of AP in mere minutes.

Yamiga.7863:

Subdue.5479:

@Awe.1096, Yamiga.7863

You can play the game any way you want. MMOs, especially in the case of GW2, are about enjoying the game the way you want to enjoy it. What bothers me about the specific change(s) that you guys are clamoring for is that they don’t affect gameplay at all. Nothing hinders you from playing the way you want to play now, without those changes implemented.

That means that there are two reasons why you might want to have these changes implemented. You might, rationally but maliciously, want to limit competition on the leaderboard, thus making it easier to maintain your place. Personally, I think the way the leaderboard is setup right now is already broken enough as it is, and really needs a major overhaul (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/The-AP-Leaderboard-Sucks-Let-s-Fix-It), but the change you suggest makes it worse, not better. Or, you might irrationally be trying to deal with your own neurosis by changing the game. If that’s the case, if this really is a mental illness for you, it really might be a good idea to step back. But that’s still not a reason to change the game.

You’re missing the point. Completely. I could care less about the leaderboard, competition or anything like that. I’m playing for the personal satisfaction of completing achievements, like I do on most games I play (I even went for Civilization V ones lol). In GW2 achievement points act as a global meta-achievement, therefore I’m trying to earn them as much as I can, including dailies.
This is a all or nothing playstyle, and the current state of dailies actually does “hinders me from playing the way I want to play” because it takes a lot of time (not skill) to do them all every day, and missing one or two of them just because I don’t have time is really frustrating, to a point its almost not fun aymore.
The proposition I made would fix that without any impact on anyone but AP farmers, people that share my completionist playstyle.

I’d like to point out that your argument makes absolutely no sense. If dailys hinder you from doing what you want don’t do them then? Why does the game need to change because you have some sort of OCD complex?

I think your personal satisfaction level would sore through the roof when you realize that you are in fact not obligated to finish them every day.

The “all or nothing” play style you created is your problem alone and there is a solution for your problem already.

Malediktus.9250:

if there is a cap its possible to catch up, you logic is wrong

How? If you cap the reward at 5 dailies, and almost everyone is doing 5 dailies a day, how do you catch up? How does this not just solidify the positions of everyone permanently, barring an absence from the game?

Subdue.5479:

It is true that if dailies were removed, the total number of points available, and therefore, the average number of points between competitors would constrict. This would give the illusion of gaining ground. However, in reality, little to no ground would be gained, the rate of AP acquisition for everyone would remain equal, the only difference being that it would be impossible to “lose” points, thus making those at the top further entrenched.

You keep talking about the leaderboard like a core of the issue. I already stated multitude times that leaderboard is irrelevant. In fact I was strongly against adding the leaderboard to the game when it was first announced (it is possible to dig in posting history, I am sure those posts from over a year back are there). I predicted that it will create problems and their subject boomeranging here over and over is one of such problems. My leaderboard position (and other people who were/are high on it) was merely a side effect of the things I focused on. I was after those AP since the 1st day of game’s pre-launch back when nobody (including me) had a clue how the game even works. I also didnt liked the idea of rewards from AP (AP chests) even though I was in a fraction of people who benefited from those rewards the most. What ultimately happened and this whole discussion just confirms my fear that leaderboards will lead me to a disaster.

bwillb.2165:

Malediktus.9250:

if there is a cap its possible to catch up, you logic is wrong

How? If you cap the reward at 5 dailies, and almost everyone is doing 5 dailies a day, how do you catch up? How does this not just solidify the positions of everyone permanently, barring an absence from the game?

We are not talking about small cap each day. We are talking about large cap on total AP you can get from dailies. For example 10,000 or 20,000 or 30,000 or whatever. The amount is a thing to discuss.

I don’t like the way achievements are being used in the living story,

I used to love achievements. I did achievements long before game invented achievements. You now, setting your own achievements. Complete a level without dying. That sort of stuff.

But in GW2 I came to dislike achievements. Every living story is a grind of achievements and to make it worse even with rewards on that (AP, titles, items). That would be fine for normal permanent achievements. But now that the achievements is a form of temporary content it’s a grind against time. And if you do not do it you miss out on the rewards. For ever. Thats the worse use of achievements ever in any game I have ever played. It’s part is the temporary content nature that makes the living story as bad as it is.

The Living Story should just be a story without achievements, unique rewards and so on but just a story. Then because of the story permanent content would be created (because of the story) and then that permanent content can have permanent achievements (with rewards) linked to it. That would be fine. But as it is now it’s just terrible. And thats an understatement. It’s one of the main elements that is imho destroying this game.

People are getting burned out by the never ending list of temporary achievements that many feel they have to do because else they will miss out on the achievements and rewards forever. The idea behind it may be to keep people playing. But the problem is that that does only work until people have missed some of the achievements or are burned out by it. Then they simply stop caring but it might also mean they will not come back knowing they missed out on a lot of stuff they will never be able to do again.

While GW2 is still able to get new people and get some old people back. It’s very bad at actually really keeping the same people bound to the game. Thats at least what I see with the guild. This might be one of the main reasons for that.

The achievements are a sort of end-content and if you make it in a way it’s not fun, it burns out people, you learn people to not care and make sure they will never be able to complete it (once they missed something) then that is very bad.

I hope the developers will equally do something with this information but the complains bout temporary content have been ongoing for over a year and so far this element has not been addressed. Beside I can’t imagine the developers not noticing this them-self. Or maybe they have the ability to simply unlock everything? So it might all be based on the way the game gets monetized what means that has to change (what would also for many other elements of the game would not be a bad thing) before this gets addressed.

Awe.1096:

bwillb.2165:

Malediktus.9250:

if there is a cap its possible to catch up, you logic is wrong

How? If you cap the reward at 5 dailies, and almost everyone is doing 5 dailies a day, how do you catch up? How does this not just solidify the positions of everyone permanently, barring an absence from the game?

We are not talking about small cap each day. We are talking about large cap on total AP you can get from dailies. For example 10,000 or 20,000 or 30,000 or whatever. The amount is a thing to discuss.

Okay, then someone who has been gone a while is still never going to have a chance to catch up to someone who plays every day. Under the current system I’ll never be on top, but I can at least catch up and pass the average player, even if they’ve not had an absence. But with a cap, that places me permanently under people who have not missed any events.

And what do you do about people who have already gotten more than the proposed cap? Take their points away? People won’t like that. What about the reward chests?

And all, what, to satisfy some feeling of accomplishment even though you’re doing less?

Awe.1096:

Subdue.5479:

It is true that if dailies were removed, the total number of points available, and therefore, the average number of points between competitors would constrict. This would give the illusion of gaining ground. However, in reality, little to no ground would be gained, the rate of AP acquisition for everyone would remain equal, the only difference being that it would be impossible to “lose” points, thus making those at the top further entrenched.

You keep talking about the leaderboard like a core of the issue. I already stated multitude times that leaderboard is irrelevant. In fact I was strongly against adding the leaderboard to the game when it was first announced (it is possible to dig in posting history, I am sure those posts from over a year back are there). I predicted that it will create problems and their subject boomeranging here over and over is one of such problems. My leaderboard position (and other people who were/are high on it) was merely a side effect of the things I focused on. I was after those AP since the 1st day of game’s pre-launch back when nobody (including me) had a clue how the game even works. I also didnt liked the idea of rewards from AP (AP chests) even though I was in a fraction of people who benefited from those rewards the most. What ultimately happened and this whole discussion just confirms my fear that leaderboards will lead me to a disaster.

Yes, you’ve stated that you don’t care for the leaderboard. And that’s fine. In fact, because you don’t care for the leaderboard, it makes even less sense why you can’t just stop doing the dailies you don’t enjoy doing. That’s a personal problem that you really should learn to deal with. That said, it’s pretty obvious that while you don’t care for the leaderboard, people on your side of the argument do. Any of Malediktus’s posts will show you that.

bwillb.2165:

But with a cap, that places me permanently under people who have not missed any events.

How? They will reach their cap first and stop getting more AP from dailies while you will still get those AP and you will start to catch up.

Also. The problem of temporary living story achievements is another separate issue but we dont talk about it here (at least so far).

bwillb.2165:

And what do you do about people who have already gotten more than the proposed cap? Take their points away? People won’t like that. What about the reward chests?

When adding the cap, make it larger from the current maximum possible AP from dailies. At this point that is around 10,000. As long as the number would be 10,000 or larger (now), nobody would loose a single point.

bwillb.2165:

And all, what, to satisfy some feeling of accomplishment even though you’re doing less?

What is bad in satisfying feeling of accomplishment? Achievements in almost every game around are based on set and finite pool. Ideally, a well balanced achievement system in a multiplayer game (single player games are different) is when it is very difficult to reach “everything” but it is possible. Thus working as a motivator for players. To make sure the system does not become static, new permanent achievements should be added with major content releases. I really can’t agree that you are “doing less” if you just spent 10,000 game hours to max your achievements. That was a huge effort but an effort with a clear set goal. As opposed to being treated like a hamster trapped running in a wheel.

ArenaNet tries to be innovative. Perhaps they also tried to innovate the achievement system and instead of standard system which I described above they decided to go with the temporary achievement design, one for which dailies are the most hardcore example. Only 24 hours to complete and temporary status. In order to be “good” in that you pretty much need to run your real life around dailies in GW2. And frankly I did just that for quite some time. I dont know what intention ANet designers have. I can have my opinions but I promise to rest the case as soon as someone from developers will briefly outline their intentions. If this will simply mean “system is working as we intend it to, we are aware of the concerns but we have our reasons to keep the status quo” so be it. I dont intend to riot becouse a game designer is doing something in a way I dont like. I just want to hear that from them and not from anonymous forum poster.

fellyn.5083:

I’d like to point out that your argument makes absolutely no sense. If dailys hinder you from doing what you want don’t do them then? Why does the game need to change because you have some sort of OCD complex?

I think your personal satisfaction level would sore through the roof when you realize that you are in fact not obligated to finish them every day.

The “all or nothing” play style you created is your problem alone and there is a solution for your problem already.

Following your argument, every pvp player unhappy with the current balance should stop doing pvp. Don’t you think thats a bit extreme? Instead, they ask for balance updates. Does that makes them mentally sick like you’re implying?

I, like other AP hunters play some sort of niche minigame within the game, which goal is to collect achievement points, like some people play the game to play the trading post or collect miniatures, etc. During the last year, the “meta” of this minigame has been drastically pushed towards dailies, december 2013 update pushing the time required to do all the dailies to the roof.
I am NOT asking to revert these changes. They were made for a reason, to make it easier/more rewarding for the majority, and our minigame suffering from it is just a unfortunate side-effect. Instead, I propose a small change that will only affect people playing the AP hunt.

Just make it a total cap of retired, daily, monthly and living story points. 25k would seem fair. So people can even get max AP if they started playing 3 years after release.

thread got bugged?

Yamiga.7863:

fellyn.5083:

I’d like to point out that your argument makes absolutely no sense. If dailys hinder you from doing what you want don’t do them then? Why does the game need to change because you have some sort of OCD complex?

I think your personal satisfaction level would sore through the roof when you realize that you are in fact not obligated to finish them every day.

The “all or nothing” play style you created is your problem alone and there is a solution for your problem already.

Following your argument, every pvp player unhappy with the current balance should stop doing pvp. Don’t you think thats a bit extreme? Instead, they ask for balance updates. Does that makes them mentally sick like you’re implying?

I, like other AP hunters play some sort of niche minigame within the game, which goal is to collect achievement points, like some people play the game to play the trading post or collect miniatures, etc. During the last year, the “meta” of this minigame has been drastically pushed towards dailies, december 2013 update pushing the time required to do all the dailies to the roof.
I am NOT asking to revert these changes. They were made for a reason, to make it easier/more rewarding for the majority, and our minigame suffering from it is just a unfortunate side-effect. Instead, I propose a small change that will only affect people playing the AP hunt.

I don’t see how game balance that affects everyone has anything to do with your own personal choices that affect only you.

That analogy doesn’t even make any sense just like the rest of your arguments.

Here’s one that fits. Say you eat at McDonalds every day of your life and it leads to you having a heart attack. You then ask McDonalds to cut their menu down to salads only because you can’t control yourself and are afraid of another heart attack because you’ve decided that you can’t stop eating at McDonalds.

That is what you are doing. The problem doesn’t lay with the the achievement system it’s entirely your own.

fellyn.5083:

Yamiga.7863:

fellyn.5083:

I’d like to point out that your argument makes absolutely no sense. If dailys hinder you from doing what you want don’t do them then? Why does the game need to change because you have some sort of OCD complex?

I think your personal satisfaction level would sore through the roof when you realize that you are in fact not obligated to finish them every day.

The “all or nothing” play style you created is your problem alone and there is a solution for your problem already.

Following your argument, every pvp player unhappy with the current balance should stop doing pvp. Don’t you think thats a bit extreme? Instead, they ask for balance updates. Does that makes them mentally sick like you’re implying?

I, like other AP hunters play some sort of niche minigame within the game, which goal is to collect achievement points, like some people play the game to play the trading post or collect miniatures, etc. During the last year, the “meta” of this minigame has been drastically pushed towards dailies, december 2013 update pushing the time required to do all the dailies to the roof.
I am NOT asking to revert these changes. They were made for a reason, to make it easier/more rewarding for the majority, and our minigame suffering from it is just a unfortunate side-effect. Instead, I propose a small change that will only affect people playing the AP hunt.

I don’t see how game balance that affects everyone has anything to do with your own personal choices that affect only you.

That analogy doesn’t even make any sense just like the rest of your arguments.

Here’s one that fits. Say you eat at McDonalds every day of your life and it leads to you having a heart attack. You then ask McDonalds to cut their menu down to salads only because you can’t control yourself and are afraid of another heart attack because you’ve decided that you can’t stop eating at McDonalds.

That is what you are doing. The problem doesn’t lay with the the achievement system it’s entirely your own.

Man… Why are you hating on McDonalds. =(

Awe.1096:

bwillb.2165:

But with a cap, that places me permanently under people who have not missed any events.

How? They will reach their cap first and stop getting more AP from dailies while you will still get those AP and you will start to catch up.

I actually already explained this earlier, but I’ll quote it for you:

Subdue.5479:

I’ve been thinking about this since a previous person brought up the argument, and it’s actually quite the opposite. Any person who wants to climb the leaderboard (read climb, not already at the top of), benefits from an abundance of available, temporary points. Temporary points pressure those at the top to keep working and allow climbers to gain ground when those sitting at the top slack off, since those points can’t be made up. This is in contrast to permanent points, which can be made up at any time.

It is true that if dailies were removed, the total number of points available, and therefore, the average number of points between competitors would constrict. This would give the illusion of gaining ground. However, in reality, little to no ground would be gained, the rate of AP acquisition for everyone would remain equal, the only difference being that it would be impossible to “lose” points, thus making those at the top further entrenched.

Awe.1096:

bwillb.2165:

But with a cap, that places me permanently under people who have not missed any events.

How? They will reach their cap first and stop getting more AP from dailies while you will still get those AP and you will start to catch up.

Also. The problem of temporary living story achievements is another separate issue but we dont talk about it here (at least so far).

But those temporary points do exist, and have been gained already. And a lot of people are doing these events primarily for those points, so I can’t see them being capped or it would kill chances of success especially on servers that are already struggling to get the numbers.

And that raises another concern… What would be the incentive to keep doing dailies and events once you’ve been capped? And for the love of god don’t say higher tiers of gear to grind for.

fellyn.5083:

Here’s one that fits. Say you eat at McDonalds every day of your life and it leads to you having a heart attack. You then ask McDonalds to cut their menu down to salads only because you can’t control yourself and are afraid of another heart attack because you’ve decided that you can’t stop eating at McDonalds.

McDonalds is a poor analogy. And here is why. Sure, eating there every day will lead to problems (well, not quite, you can eat something at McD each day and remain slim and healthy but that would require a very specific choice of meals – definitely it would not be an experience for which people are eating at McD). There is however one quite popular solution to the McD “problem” and in fact it is being advocated for by health experts and some “progressive” people. Namely – avoid McDonald’s like a plague. Dont eat there. Ever. It will be the best solution. And in fact it is. For best health benefit you should just stop eating at McD. And stop giving them your money. Simple. So using your analogy, the best solution for the GW2 AP problem is… stop playing GW2 and never touch it again. Ironically that is exactly what I decided to do although I am not sure about the “never touch it again” part, it depends from potential changes they may do in the future. However, continuing with your analogy, basically what I am trying to do now is to suggest McDonalds what they can do so that their burgers will suddenly become as healthy as fresh veggie salad while still retaining all former taste benefits. Sounds like magic and in fact it would have to be. But in case of GW2 solution is much simplier and therefore I shall keep supporting it at least as long as someone from ArenaNet will more or less openly tell me to shut it and get the kitten out.

bwillb.2165:

And that raises another concern… What would be the incentive to keep doing dailies and events once you’ve been capped? And for the love of god don’t say higher tiers of gear to grind for.

First of all you would need to keep doing those dailies until your cap is reached. Which could take you few years of doing them every day or like 6-8 years if done in moderation. That is already awfuly long for a lifespan of a game one might expect. But lets assume you will keep playing beyond that. Well, you can still do them for laurels. Even if you bought ascended gear for all your alts in multitudes and all things like pets etc. there are still things like obsidian shards, dyes, crafting materials, infusions, WvW blueprints etc. which you can buy using laurels. But lets even assume you dont need those. Well, how about… just stop doing the dailies? You can focus on getting 1,000,000 dolyak kills in WvW, getting max rank in sPvP (good luck with that haha) and other very long permanent achievements. And considering that we speak about time several years ahead, by then ArenaNet for sure will create some expansions and add lots of new permanent achievements, some of them potentially quite grindy to complete. I dont see a problem in having a potential of reaching the finish line as long as this journey is long enough and requires commitment. In fact, having that finish line as opposed to pit of endless temporary void is something that I am asking for. As an example, in EvE Online to reach the point where you trained all skills on your character it would take being subscribed to the game for around 20 years. And I love the fact there there is this finish line to which I am closer to each day. Even though 20 years of commitment is insane in reality of gaming. But seing that light at the end of the tunnel pushes me to go forward.

Can we all just agree to put a cap of 1,000,000 AP from dailies and be done with it?