Guild Wars 2

ANET: Please make the NPE optional for veteran players. Please. Thanks.

I don’t know what was wrong with the old player experience. It just needed a few minor quality of life issues and it would have been perfect.

phys.7689:

hmm.
There is a noticeable increase in damage if you are always wearing the top of the line gear, but that is fairly expensive. However i doubt they could/would give you like 8-9 peices of gear every time you level.

You can craft alongside your leveling fairly easily – this is what I did the first time through and have done for my alts. It’s not easy, and if you have a lot of alts you might need to spend time getting resources but . . . it works better than RNG.

Those solutions would be really large scale changes though, effecting almost everything, so i doubt they would do it.

I think creeping forward on the damage value is something which is worth being wary of. It can easily just go awry.

In the current design, you are basically expected to use gold to power up your armor as you level, occaisionally finding something useful

Or you can just craft, or befriend a crafter. Heck, if you had the materials I’d even do it for people. Wouldn’t even charge, if I had the craft discipline up high enough.

UndeadRufus.6832:

anzenketh.3759:

As the game evolved did it get easier for alts? Yes. Skill scrolls is one item that made it easier. Was it possible to bypass this “gate” yes it is. However for the majority of players I would say that you are unlocking the same things at the same rate now as you were before.

Except you really aren’t. At least I’m not. Even if I am moving at the same rate and this is just a matter of perception, it’s still indicative of a poorly-implemented change that has made the game grindy, dull and dumb, and has been forced on people in lieu of the one of the game’s most highly-praised systems. Even if we could find a point of agreement that something needed to change in the early game, the way it has happened is stupendously awful and anti-player. An effective tutorial in the opening sequence, ala GW Nightfall, could have bypassed nearly all of these alleged problems, if the average gamer is half as inept as ArenatNet seems to believe.

The larger issue here is that early levels should not be so empty and mind-numbing as to make me want to skip them, yet the NPE has made this issue even more pronounced than it was.

i think this is the real big deal, the NPE made the system less entertaining as a whole, the changes they have made, make the system less painful, or at least painful for less time, but does it make the beginning more fun?

one huge unfun part for me, was them taking all loot drops out of personal story. Getting loot drops for enemies, makes killing enemies more entertaining, especially when exp per kill is generally low.
Now when i do personal story i really hate having to fight enemies, feels like every enemy in there is a total waste of time, and i should be avoiding killing as much as possible.

perhaps they should add a rating system for extra rewards in personal story, or give extra rewards for killing all non respawing enemies, time to completion (not counting cutscenes and skippables) below a certain threshold.

UndeadRufus.6832:

anzenketh.3759:

As the game evolved did it get easier for alts? Yes. Skill scrolls is one item that made it easier. Was it possible to bypass this “gate” yes it is. However for the majority of players I would say that you are unlocking the same things at the same rate now as you were before.

Except you really aren’t. At least I’m not. Even if I am moving at the same rate and this is just a matter of perception, it’s still indicative of a poorly-implemented change that has made the game grindy, dull and dumb, and has been forced on people in lieu of the one of the game’s most highly-praised systems. Even if we could find a point of agreement that something needed to change in the early game, the way it has happened is stupendously awful and anti-player. An effective tutorial in the opening sequence, ala GW Nightfall, could have bypassed nearly all of these alleged problems, if the average gamer is half as inept as ArenatNet seems to believe.

The larger issue here is that early levels should not be so empty and mind-numbing as to make me want to skip them, yet the NPE has made this issue even more pronounced than it was.

Yes it is a matter of perception. After about level 7 or 8 I felt it getting slow myself. I know however that is not due to the level gate but my impatient attitude of moving along with the story. I wish there was more story so we could unlock a chapter every 5 levels.

I keep on seeing people recommend. “Well why don’t you add a expanded tutorial instance.” When the answer is fairly simple. They don’t want to front-load the player with information.

Do I agree with everything they have implemented. No. I personally think that weapon skill unlocked should be done as you use them. This I find taught the profession more then just unlocking a skill. The current method only teaches one of many weapons for a given profession.

They implemented the system to make leveling a reward. This is good. However the first 5 levels go by so fast I don’t think they need that many rewards.

The system is needed. Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I did the “new” metrica province last night, and it was heartbreaking. No golem chess, no jumping in a golem suit, no staff of evil destruction, just pressing “F” over and over. It was so boring.

I said, after the patch, that I would start a new alt, with all of the level gating and trait handicaps that a new player would have, and I have to tell you, I’m sitting here reading and commenting on the forums instead of playing her.

It’s mind numbingly slow. The zones feel static. Character progression feels bait and switch to me, being “rewarded” with content that all my other characters were able to experience well before the level gate.

In the last couple of days, I’ve cleared Wayfarer, Snowden, Queensdale, and without the quirky things that you could do in those zones, it’s just soulless. I liked feeding the bears. I liked jumping in a golem suit. I liked harvesting cabbage at the farm, and feeding cows and gathering apples. The zones had character, and life, and story.

Now it’s just press F. Or 1. And 1 again. Kill 35 centaurs. Go over there. Kill 35 Ettins. Rinse, repeat.

As a “new” character, traits feel irrelevant, even when you hit 30 and “unlock” them, even if you’ve somehow, by the grace of Dwayna, managed to actually unlock an actual trait, it’s lvl 36 before you could actually slot it. (I had the experience of unlocking one before 30, but I had no idea what I’d unlocked, because I couldn’t open the level locked trait panel to see what it was.)

In map discussions, I’ve heard multiple people say that they’re just ignoring traits. They see all those locks and decide that it’s an optional part of the game, like they are achievements, rather than a core part of the character design. Perhaps they are right? I do not understand what the “vision” for traits is.

TL/DR:

• Content changes in newbie zones makes the zones milquetoasty and bleh.
• What’s with all the bag vendors?
• No nodes? No TP? No salvage kits? Come on, really? Why?
• Level locks are frustrating and seem arbitrary.
• Traits are something people are starting to think are irrelevant/unnecessary/not worth the bother. Is that the desired effect?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

phys.7689:

hmm.
There is a noticeable increase in damage if you are always wearing the top of the line gear, but that is fairly expensive. However i doubt they could/would give you like 8-9 peices of gear every time you level.

You can craft alongside your leveling fairly easily – this is what I did the first time through and have done for my alts. It’s not easy, and if you have a lot of alts you might need to spend time getting resources but . . . it works better than RNG.

Those solutions would be really large scale changes though, effecting almost everything, so i doubt they would do it.

I think creeping forward on the damage value is something which is worth being wary of. It can easily just go awry.

In the current design, you are basically expected to use gold to power up your armor as you level, occaisionally finding something useful

Or you can just craft, or befriend a crafter. Heck, if you had the materials I’d even do it for people. Wouldn’t even charge, if I had the craft discipline up high enough.

crafting is using gold, by other means, anything you use to craft could be sold, and in general many things actually cost more money to craft than to buy.

make no mistake, i actually enjoy crafting, and thats how i geared my initial charachter, however at that time, the TP was not functioning that well, and materials were generally a lot closer to being break even.

But unfortunately, its kind of a bad way to gear a charachter now, effeciency wise.

i remember many times wondering if i could help my friends with crafted gear, but after doing the calculations, the answer was often, ahh probably better just to buy it on the TP, and sell your materials.

So I tried leveling a human warrior to 10 and doing the personal story (both post-patch) to test out the experience.

Aside from grabbing a Vista and a couple of Skill Points, I did it as I imagine a new player would; I basically followed the guide-arrow the whole time.

The good:

• There were few moments where I wasn’t sure where to go next. I ended up doing some waypoint-hopping a few times, but for the most part, “what do I do” was pretty straightforward.
• Levels 1-5 were a breeze and felt like a smooth transition from area to area.

The bad:

• Only following the arrow had me hitting a few events along the way, but even with the XP of those events, the Hearts I was heading to outleveled me quickly. I believe it was around about level 6 or 7 that I found the arrow directing me to Hearts that were 2-3 levels higher. Some of this may have been an “arrow error” – as in, sending me towards X Heart when Y Heart is closer to my level – but even with that aside, my progress became almost painful at around level 8. At that point, I had to scrounge around for Hearts and events to get to 10, and even ended up discovering waypoints all the way over in Godslost (which was suggested to me by the arrow).

• Bag space was a nightmare. I could have bought a Salvage Kit along the way, but remember I’m playing as if I’m new and Salvaging doesn’t get introduced until (checking notes…) level 12. I found myself putting crap on the TP at one point, or just selling it for Copper at a merchant. I guess I kind of cheated there, but the alternative was running around with full bags.

Suggestions for improvement:

• Make levels 6-10 about as fast as 1-5, for two reasons:
  1) This will more easily keep players on track with following Hearts/guide-arrow until they hit the first Personal Story – PS will then fast-track them to the Crafting info at level 12, which can then supplement the XP gap that Hearts leave at “normal-gain” levels.
  2) It will make Key Farming a bit easier, which is something that I’m sure a lot of veterans would love to see make a return in its own way.

• Introduce Salvage Kit and Salvaging as a level 5 or 6 reward. You could even have the guide-arrow direct them to a Merchant to buy one, though that would obviously be extra design work (the idea behind directing them to a Merchant is to teach them how to buy more Kits if they run out and introduce them to their first one).
  (Added bonus: Directing them to a Merchant means they can sell junk as well).

• Add a bag of introductory crafting materials as a Level 12 reward to replace the moved Salvage Kit. (Possible addition: Have the guide-arrow direct them to the nearest crafting area to make something, as soon as 1) PS L10 is finished and 2) Level 12 is reached. You could have this set to only activate if the account has never used a crafting station before.)
  (Alternatively, or even in addition to, add a brief arrow-tutorial that directs them to a static node at level 9 when they get their gathering tools. This will give them some resources to work with when they reach level 12 and get introduced to crafting.)

phys.7689:

crafting is using gold, by other means, anything you use to craft could be sold, and in general many things actually cost more money to craft than to buy.

Not if the items are dropped rather than bought. But then you get into “opportunity costs” and the like for arguments and I’m not sure it’s worth the math to figure out you can make a few extra silvers selling materials then buying the gear versus just making it.

make no mistake, i actually enjoy crafting, and thats how i geared my initial charachter, however at that time, the TP was not functioning that well, and materials were generally a lot closer to being break even.

Most of them are still rather easy to get your hands on. I just carry a salvage kit with me, or two, and salvage Fine items. Usually get all the basic materials I need. The Fine materials, on the other hand . . . mmm, map completion and DEs gave me a fair amount of backstock but that does run out fast when you have more than one alt gearing up.

But unfortunately, its kind of a bad way to gear a charachter now, effeciency wise.

i remember many times wondering if i could help my friends with crafted gear, but after doing the calculations, the answer was often, ahh probably better just to buy it on the TP, and sell your materials.

See, that’s a difference in attitude we have. I can’t be bothered to do that math and jump through the hoops for a few extra silver when I can do it, and go do WvW or kill things in Orr to make up the loss. I find it more . . . enriching . . . to just help and recoup financial losses later.

As Columbo would say, “Oh and one more thing…”

In case it wasn’t clear in my post above, I believe the guide-arrow is still making some errors of judgment.

I think the issue is that the algorithm is sometimes seeking out the closest thing for you to do, as opposed to seeking out the most level appropriate thing for you to do.

Gaile Gray.6029:

I agree with you about this. I think it’s premature to gauge how NPE will play at the current time, because we do know changes are coming.

And yes, you do see some forum members making the same points again and again. That truly is not helpful to the review and discussion, in that the devs would prefer a focused, clear, concise statement rather than realizing “Wait, it’s that same person, saying the same thing for the 19th times.”

Apologies but I will continue to say the same thing:

Your devs and testers really do need to strive for a couple more polish passes before things like this go live. I know it might not be possible, but it’s a recurring apparent thing when I look at the patches thus far.

. . . also, what you aim to do with these things and the actual effect seems to never quite meet up. But that’s normal

Here is probably the only way to get a more accurate assessment of the new player experience -

For the next month or so, re-implement the short surveys we saw during the beta weekends – triggering for new players only (first playthrough) – at levels 5, 10, 20, 40 and 80. This would filter away the anecdotal criticisms from people who are going more off what they have read – or the patch notes – rather than off of the actual experience.

Gaile Gray.6029:

JackDaniels.1697:

Everybody that hates the NPE is going to take over the discussion after all the fixes have been released I believe. You’re going to see multiple posts by the same people that hate it, and it’s going to seem like a lot more people dislike the new changes, when in reality, it’s just those same people that really want to make their point across. And not that there is anything wrong with posting more than once, it is a discussion after all, but you get my point.

I mean you can see the evidence of it now, with people complaining in one thread over the subject, and then having some of those same people from that thread start up new threads on pretty much the same topic.

I do agree that some minor changes need to happen, but hopefully Anet doesn’t give in to the pressure and make a complete 180 to the NPE, because I believe some of these changes are good for the game.

So I can’t wait to chime in when all the fixes are done. Should be interesting.

I agree with you about this. I think it’s premature to gauge how NPE will play at the current time, because we do know changes are coming.

And yes, you do see some forum members making the same points again and again. That truly is not helpful to the review and discussion, in that the devs would prefer a focused, clear, concise statement rather than realizing “Wait, it’s that same person, saying the same thing for the 19th times.”

I think you are missing the point, a lot of people havent seen the new changes yet, thats why the discussion at this time is old.
As far as seeing the same people, i dont think that is really relevant in a logical discussion. As long as the discussion is logical (which i admit many are not)

I think the best method to promote useful talk,
reiterate the new patch that just happened changed things. ask people to focus on those changes/whats missing/how they feel about the new stuff.

Actively engage posts that you feel are the type of posts you want to see, or are useful feedback and collate the major points adressed to compile feedback.

not saying you shouldnt agree with people you agree with, but essentially your post just continues the discussion on whether you think the information will be useful, instead of encouraging/focusing talk on useful information.

Would you consider making traits account unlocks instead of individual unlocks? This will lead new players to content through requiring them to do it, but keep it from annoying the kitten out of people creating alts. It makes sense with how the NPE is now, and would be amazing.

Nova Pint Kiosk.7085:

Would you consider making traits account unlocks instead of individual unlocks? This will lead new players to content through requiring them to do it, but keep it from annoying the kitten out of people creating alts. It makes sense with how the NPE is now, and would be amazing.

I really like this idea.

Nova Pint Kiosk.7085:

Would you consider making traits account unlocks instead of individual unlocks? This will lead new players to content through requiring them to do it, but keep it from annoying the kitten out of people creating alts. It makes sense with how the NPE is now, and would be amazing.

I could get behind this. Or make it like with Elite Tomes from GW1 – you can buy them with Skill Points and use them to select a locked Trait Mastery to learn which is unlocked on another character.

Nova Pint Kiosk.7085:

Would you consider making traits account unlocks instead of individual unlocks? This will lead new players to content through requiring them to do it, but keep it from annoying the kitten out of people creating alts. It makes sense with how the NPE is now, and would be amazing.

this would solve the problem of trait unlocks being repetive for alts, but it would solve almost no other problem. It wouldnt solve the initial goal focuses of the trait revamp, which my guess is

more rewards that are tied to playing the game
more progression
a good system framework for how new skills/traits should be introduced.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Nova Pint Kiosk.7085:

Would you consider making traits account unlocks instead of individual unlocks? This will lead new players to content through requiring them to do it, but keep it from annoying the kitten out of people creating alts. It makes sense with how the NPE is now, and would be amazing.

I could get behind this. Or make it like with Elite Tomes from GW1 – you can buy them with Skill Points and use them to select a locked Trait Mastery to learn which is unlocked on another character.

I think this concept could be interesting, offering a different method that is more generic to get skills once you have unlocked them.
perhaps they could be bought with karma/be given from doing any trait unlocking activity in that teir. In this way people could choose the traits they want after the first time.

Gaile Gray.6029:

And yes, you do see some forum members making the same points again and again. That truly is not helpful to the review and discussion, in that the devs would prefer a focused, clear, concise statement rather than realizing “Wait, it’s that same person, saying the same thing for the 19th time.”

Gaile, as a GW1 player from way back, I want you to know how much I respect you. But, you know as well as I do that if ANet wants that focused, clear, concise advice, ANet will have to pay for that. Companies are lined up to provide this service. This is a forum and nothing more. Unfortunately, it seems that the advice that ANet paid for so far, and the management direction to this point, has been a bit lacking to say the least.

I work for a big company too. I know the politics involved, and I also am pretty sure that many of ANet’s employees feel the same as many of the people posting here. Unfortunately, like us, we are bound by our upper management’s decisions.

Most of us now are just pretty bored, and starving for more game. Instead, week after week and month after month, we get updates that break the game, and provide no story growth. On top of that, the LS, which was supposed to be our savior, is now updated quarterly. It’s just not acceptable.

phys.7689:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Nova Pint Kiosk.7085:

Would you consider making traits account unlocks instead of individual unlocks? This will lead new players to content through requiring them to do it, but keep it from annoying the kitten out of people creating alts. It makes sense with how the NPE is now, and would be amazing.

I could get behind this. Or make it like with Elite Tomes from GW1 – you can buy them with Skill Points and use them to select a locked Trait Mastery to learn which is unlocked on another character.

I think this concept could be interesting, offering a different method that is more generic to get skills once you have unlocked them.
perhaps they could be bought with karma/be given from doing any trait unlocking activity in that teir. In this way people could choose the traits they want after the first time.

Sounding good so far . . . of course that doesn’t solve one issue I think was attempted to be solved by where the traits were located. Specifically, getting people to spread out to events or regions which were being ignored.

The solution I’d pick for that is simple – unique weapon drops with more than 0.1% chance of being dropped.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Nova Pint Kiosk.7085:

Would you consider making traits account unlocks instead of individual unlocks? This will lead new players to content through requiring them to do it, but keep it from annoying the kitten out of people creating alts. It makes sense with how the NPE is now, and would be amazing.

I could get behind this. Or make it like with Elite Tomes from GW1 – you can buy them with Skill Points and use them to select a locked Trait Mastery to learn which is unlocked on another character.

I like it. Fun idea.

phys.7689:

Gaile Gray.6029:

JackDaniels.1697:

Everybody that hates the NPE is going to take over the discussion after all the fixes have been released I believe. You’re going to see multiple posts by the same people that hate it, and it’s going to seem like a lot more people dislike the new changes, when in reality, it’s just those same people that really want to make their point across. And not that there is anything wrong with posting more than once, it is a discussion after all, but you get my point.

I mean you can see the evidence of it now, with people complaining in one thread over the subject, and then having some of those same people from that thread start up new threads on pretty much the same topic.

I do agree that some minor changes need to happen, but hopefully Anet doesn’t give in to the pressure and make a complete 180 to the NPE, because I believe some of these changes are good for the game.

So I can’t wait to chime in when all the fixes are done. Should be interesting.

I agree with you about this. I think it’s premature to gauge how NPE will play at the current time, because we do know changes are coming.

And yes, you do see some forum members making the same points again and again. That truly is not helpful to the review and discussion, in that the devs would prefer a focused, clear, concise statement rather than realizing “Wait, it’s that same person, saying the same thing for the 19th times.”

I think you are missing the point, a lot of people havent seen the new changes yet, thats why the discussion at this time is old.
As far as seeing the same people, i dont think that is really relevant in a logical discussion. As long as the discussion is logical (which i admit many are not)

I think the best method to promote useful talk,
reiterate the new patch that just happened changed things. ask people to focus on those changes/whats missing/how they feel about the new stuff.

Actively engage posts that you feel are the type of posts you want to see, or are useful feedback and collate the major points adressed to compile feedback.

not saying you shouldnt agree with people you agree with, but essentially your post just continues the discussion on whether you think the information will be useful, instead of encouraging/focusing talk on useful information.

I’m absolutely convinced that some people don’t care about the changes one way or another, never plan to level a new character and they’re here just to bait white knights, or drive people from this game to whatever game they’re interested in. It does happen.

The problem with the repeating in every thread of the same negative thing (which I try to counter by posting something more positive) is that it gives an unreal impression to people who don’t remember forum names.

There are about twenty people on this forum that really hate (or at least say they hate) the new NPE. I’ve been accused many times of posting in every negative thread, even though it’s not true. I pick my negative threads I post in.

If you put a teaspoon of wine in a barrel of sewerage, you get sewerage. If you put a teaspoon of sewerage into a barrel of wine…you get sewerage. It’s much much easier to tear something down than it is to build it up.

It takes the people who want to far less energy to start a negative stampede than it does to stop it. And when that happens and misinformation starts, it’s not good for the game, period.

For some it’s an honest reaction. Some just get caught up in the peer pressure or the bashing. Some are trolling. And at the end of the day, most of it gets fixed, or enough of it to play and the game continues.

But the affect it has on the population is staggering. You might be surprised at how many people have contacted me saying they wouldn’t post on this forum because of how aggressively negative it is if you post something positive.

So yeah, repeating the same thing over and over in every thread is more destructive than helpful…in my opinion.

Gaile Gray.6029:

The devs have been reviewing your feedback on the New Player Experience. While some bug fixes have already been made, the team will be making other updates in the future to address:

• Plot holes and story inconsistencies that may have been introduced with story realignment
• Replacing the missing profession mechanics UI for the Ranger and Mesmer professions
• Investigating issues that prevent players from retaining some skills (heal, utility, and elite) that they had previously unlocked
• Addressing an issue with bundles that prematurely unlocked utility and elite skills

Other aspects of the NPE are being examined, and your constructive feedback is welcome and appreciated.

ARe you looking at bringing some of the old bundles back?

Some are certainly confusing, but stuff like gathering food for the cows and golem chess do a lot to add to the atmosphere of the game.

Not adding anything to the changes to NPE but instead merely saying: few MMO and some single-player game developers have player councils/beta servers of upcoming changes with closed/partially open access to players where people play with new game builds and give constant feedback and thus making new patches more player-friendly.

Some examples:
Lotro has Bullroarer Public Test Server + player council
WoW has similar PTS as well

Even then there’s going to be always disappointed players with every patch that changes stuff sure thing but player feedback of upcoming changes is a win/win situation whatever point of view you take.

Gaile Gray.6029:

I agree with you about this. I think it’s premature to gauge how NPE will play at the current time, because we do know changes are coming.

And yes, you do see some forum members making the same points again and again. That truly is not helpful to the review and discussion, in that the devs would prefer a focused, clear, concise statement rather than realizing “Wait, it’s that same person, saying the same thing for the 19th time.”

I guess a lot of players would prefer to know what the devs have in mind when something goes life, when something seems to be full of bugs and things that do not work as intended. But all we get are blog posts that make mountains out of molehills and don’t give concrete informations.
So… what changes are coming? What is a bug? What is only declared as a bug because the players don’t like it and noone wants to admit that it was a mistake?

phys.7689:

Nova Pint Kiosk.7085:

Would you consider making traits account unlocks instead of individual unlocks? This will lead new players to content through requiring them to do it, but keep it from annoying the kitten out of people creating alts. It makes sense with how the NPE is now, and would be amazing.

this would solve the problem of trait unlocks being repetive for alts, but it would solve almost no other problem. It wouldnt solve the initial goal focuses of the trait revamp, which my guess is

more rewards that are tied to playing the game
more progression
a good system framework for how new skills/traits should be introduced.

Those are much more complex changes. I would completely support reworking how traits are rewarded.

For one, trait missions should all be things most players can reasonably work on and enjoy. Time gated activities and unpopular group activities(Killing Overgrown Grub) should not be required for traits.

It would also be nice to have some solo traits people can easily accomplish mixed in.

Vayne.8563:

I’m absolutely convinced that some people don’t care about the changes one way or another, never plan to level a new character and they’re here just to bait white knights, or drive people from this game to whatever game they’re interested in. It does happen.

The problem with the repeating in every thread of the same negative thing (which I try to counter by posting something more positive) is that it gives an unreal impression to people who don’t remember forum names.

There are about twenty people on this forum that really hate (or at least say they hate) the new NPE. I’ve been accused many times of posting in every negative thread, even though it’s not true. I pick my negative threads I post in.

If you put a teaspoon of wine in a barrel of sewerage, you get sewerage. If you put a teaspoon of sewerage into a barrel of wine…you get sewerage. It’s much much easier to tear something down than it is to build it up.

It takes the people who want to far less energy to start a negative stampede than it does to stop it. And when that happens and misinformation starts, it’s not good for the game, period.

For some it’s an honest reaction. Some just get caught up in the peer pressure or the bashing. Some are trolling. And at the end of the day, most of it gets fixed, or enough of it to play and the game continues.

But the affect it has on the population is staggering. You might be surprised at how many people have contacted me saying they wouldn’t post on this forum because of how aggressively negative it is if you post something positive.

So yeah, repeating the same thing over and over in every thread is more destructive than helpful…in my opinion.

perhaps, but for those who feel that way, talking about talking about repeating it over and over again (or talking about the possible negative outcomes) is even less productive.

So on that note, how do you feel about these changes with the latest patch, in combination with how you felt before?

Bug Fixes:

• Fixed a bug that occasionally caused the Content Direction System to direct players to higher-level zones when a more appropriate zone was nearby.
  * Fixed a bug that would occasionally direct players using alternate characters towards the dodge tutorial before level 4.
  * Diving goggles now unlock on an account-wide basis rather than a per-character basis.
  * Fixed a bug that occasionally unlocked collection items incorrectly.
  * Fixed the text in the options menu for the Content Direction System.
  * Fixed a bug that prevented some accounts from having vistas now unlock on an account-wide basis rather than a per-character basis.
  * Skill challenges now unlock on an account-wide basis rather than a per-character basis as originally intended.
  * Utility slot skills 2 and 3 now unlock at levels 17 and 19, respectively.
  * The elite slot skill now unlocks at level 31.
  * Elementalist F4 commands, mesmer F3 commands, and guardian F3 commands now unlock at level 17.
  * Mesmer F4 commands and engineer F4 commands now unlock at level 19.
  * Skill Challenges are now visible at level 13 instead of level 15.

personally i feel these a pretty good changes, and overall make the experience fairly livable for veterans, and seem designed around the idea that by level 20 you once again have most things unlocked.

Still i feel that the unlock system is still fairly unfair and unbalanced for some professions, and that level 1-20 will still not be as enjoyable, though better than before.

essentially, good job, its better, but i dont think 1-20 will be a better experience for newbs, and vets who havent the means to skip to 20.

On the + side, it will be a fairly short period of being any different than anything else they have done, so its tolerable.

basically, less painful, but still not increasing peoples motivation to play this experience, for vets, and average new gamers.

Leveling a new character in Wayfarer’s Foothills was the first time I’d ever run through there since I leveled my first character, a Norn, over a year ago. And it brought through all sorts of memories of how confusing it seemed. The difference between personal story events and open world events seemed almost nonexistent, I’d wander into Hoelbrak and wonder where the people were I just saw. Feeding fish to the bears is fun when you know how and you’ve done it, but I remember not understanding that at all for awhile. It wasn’t “fun” not understanding, it was “confused” not understanding.

TL;DR: This was my first mmo and I remember now what my actual NPE was, and I think this one is better. Much better.

sirian.4981:

phys.7689:

Nova Pint Kiosk.7085:

Would you consider making traits account unlocks instead of individual unlocks? This will lead new players to content through requiring them to do it, but keep it from annoying the kitten out of people creating alts. It makes sense with how the NPE is now, and would be amazing.

this would solve the problem of trait unlocks being repetive for alts, but it would solve almost no other problem. It wouldnt solve the initial goal focuses of the trait revamp, which my guess is

more rewards that are tied to playing the game
more progression
a good system framework for how new skills/traits should be introduced.

Those are much more complex changes. I would completely support reworking how traits are rewarded.

For one, trait missions should all be things most players can reasonably work on and enjoy. Time gated activities and unpopular group activities(Killing Overgrown Grub) should not be required for traits.

It would also be nice to have some solo traits people can easily accomplish mixed in.

I think this was a big error in design, i understand its an online game, and working with people is a focus, but i think unlocking traits is seen as personal growth by many. I think its something that should definately have multiplayer methods, but should at its basis be as you say, something that is doable by solo play.

One thing I noticed with the new patch was the launcher now seems to indicate the total size of the patch at the start of the download, instead of at the conclusion of the download. That seems helpful. =)

Maybe if new patch notes were announced in red like some of the announcements deemed more important are (you know, that one that states the announcement will disappear after viewing the front page once again), players would find the information more noticeable. This might help posters be a bit more informed in their discussions. Just a suggestion, of course. =)

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

I’m absolutely convinced that some people don’t care about the changes one way or another, never plan to level a new character and they’re here just to bait white knights, or drive people from this game to whatever game they’re interested in. It does happen.

The problem with the repeating in every thread of the same negative thing (which I try to counter by posting something more positive) is that it gives an unreal impression to people who don’t remember forum names.

There are about twenty people on this forum that really hate (or at least say they hate) the new NPE. I’ve been accused many times of posting in every negative thread, even though it’s not true. I pick my negative threads I post in.

If you put a teaspoon of wine in a barrel of sewerage, you get sewerage. If you put a teaspoon of sewerage into a barrel of wine…you get sewerage. It’s much much easier to tear something down than it is to build it up.

It takes the people who want to far less energy to start a negative stampede than it does to stop it. And when that happens and misinformation starts, it’s not good for the game, period.

For some it’s an honest reaction. Some just get caught up in the peer pressure or the bashing. Some are trolling. And at the end of the day, most of it gets fixed, or enough of it to play and the game continues.

But the affect it has on the population is staggering. You might be surprised at how many people have contacted me saying they wouldn’t post on this forum because of how aggressively negative it is if you post something positive.

So yeah, repeating the same thing over and over in every thread is more destructive than helpful…in my opinion.

perhaps, but for those who feel that way, talking about talking about repeating it over and over again (or talking about the possible negative outcomes) is even less productive.

So on that note, how do you feel about these changes with the latest patch, in combination with how you felt before?

Bug Fixes:

• Fixed a bug that occasionally caused the Content Direction System to direct players to higher-level zones when a more appropriate zone was nearby.
  * Fixed a bug that would occasionally direct players using alternate characters towards the dodge tutorial before level 4.
  * Diving goggles now unlock on an account-wide basis rather than a per-character basis.
  * Fixed a bug that occasionally unlocked collection items incorrectly.
  * Fixed the text in the options menu for the Content Direction System.
  * Fixed a bug that prevented some accounts from having vistas now unlock on an account-wide basis rather than a per-character basis.
  * Skill challenges now unlock on an account-wide basis rather than a per-character basis as originally intended.
  * Utility slot skills 2 and 3 now unlock at levels 17 and 19, respectively.
  * The elite slot skill now unlocks at level 31.
  * Elementalist F4 commands, mesmer F3 commands, and guardian F3 commands now unlock at level 17.
  * Mesmer F4 commands and engineer F4 commands now unlock at level 19.
  * Skill Challenges are now visible at level 13 instead of level 15.

personally i feel these a pretty good changes, and overall make the experience fairly livable for veterans, and seem designed around the idea that by level 20 you once again have most things unlocked.

Still i feel that the unlock system is still fairly unfair and unbalanced for some professions, and that level 1-20 will still not be as enjoyable, though better than before.

essentially, good job, its better, but i dont think 1-20 will be a better experience for newbs, and vets who havent the means to skip to 20.

On the + side, it will be a fairly short period of being any different than anything else they have done, so its tolerable.

basically, less painful, but still not increasing peoples motivation to play this experience, for vets, and average new gamers.

I think the changes are good. I always knew it would be scaled back, from the moment I first saw what was and wasn’t. Anet reacts pretty fast to patch changes and in less than a week we have a more livable NPE, that still can help players that need the help. I’m still convinced we’ll start seeing more free player weekends now, so it’s good they got this done.

I didn’t particularly have a problem with most of the original patch. It felt a bit inconvenient to me, but most of that convenience was over rather quickly. Some of the bugs were particularly unfortunately, like the leveling in the 20s bug, because compared to the first 15 levels, it made it seem so much slower. But I think the fixes are good.

phys.7689:

sirian.4981:

phys.7689:

Nova Pint Kiosk.7085:

Would you consider making traits account unlocks instead of individual unlocks? This will lead new players to content through requiring them to do it, but keep it from annoying the kitten out of people creating alts. It makes sense with how the NPE is now, and would be amazing.

this would solve the problem of trait unlocks being repetive for alts, but it would solve almost no other problem. It wouldnt solve the initial goal focuses of the trait revamp, which my guess is

more rewards that are tied to playing the game
more progression
a good system framework for how new skills/traits should be introduced.

Those are much more complex changes. I would completely support reworking how traits are rewarded.

For one, trait missions should all be things most players can reasonably work on and enjoy. Time gated activities and unpopular group activities(Killing Overgrown Grub) should not be required for traits.

It would also be nice to have some solo traits people can easily accomplish mixed in.

I think this was a big error in design, i understand its an online game, and working with people is a focus, but i think unlocking traits is seen as personal growth by many. I think its something that should definately have multiplayer methods, but should at its basis be as you say, something that is doable by solo play.

It makes me seriously question if Anet devs actually play this game. Overgrown grub has been a trait unlock since the beginning. Anyone who plays WvW would tell you trying to get a group to kill that thing will just get you ignored or yelled at by people that you are hurting the war effort.

sirian.4981:

phys.7689:

sirian.4981:

phys.7689:

Nova Pint Kiosk.7085:

Would you consider making traits account unlocks instead of individual unlocks? This will lead new players to content through requiring them to do it, but keep it from annoying the kitten out of people creating alts. It makes sense with how the NPE is now, and would be amazing.

this would solve the problem of trait unlocks being repetive for alts, but it would solve almost no other problem. It wouldnt solve the initial goal focuses of the trait revamp, which my guess is

more rewards that are tied to playing the game
more progression
a good system framework for how new skills/traits should be introduced.

Those are much more complex changes. I would completely support reworking how traits are rewarded.

For one, trait missions should all be things most players can reasonably work on and enjoy. Time gated activities and unpopular group activities(Killing Overgrown Grub) should not be required for traits.

It would also be nice to have some solo traits people can easily accomplish mixed in.

I think this was a big error in design, i understand its an online game, and working with people is a focus, but i think unlocking traits is seen as personal growth by many. I think its something that should definately have multiplayer methods, but should at its basis be as you say, something that is doable by solo play.

It makes me seriously question if Anet devs actually play this game. Overgrown grub has been a trait unlock since the beginning. Anyone who plays WvW would tell you trying to get a group to kill that thing will just get you ignored or yelled at by people that you are hurting the war effort.

my interpretation, was they were like, maybe if people could get a trait here, people would actually do it.
But the flaw with that is, less people need it over time, and the primary reason grub isnt a big deal in WvW, is because it doesnt actually achieve much within WvW. They improved these types of encounters in EOTM, which often unlock new mechanics, and serve a purpose in and of itself within WvW.

anyhow, I wonder, is traits considered part of the NPE for the purposes of this thread? or is this primarily focused on the 9/9 changes?

Gaile Gray.6029:

JackDaniels.1697:

Everybody that hates the NPE is going to take over the discussion after all the fixes have been released I believe. You’re going to see multiple posts by the same people that hate it, and it’s going to seem like a lot more people dislike the new changes, when in reality, it’s just those same people that really want to make their point across. And not that there is anything wrong with posting more than once, it is a discussion after all, but you get my point.

I mean you can see the evidence of it now, with people complaining in one thread over the subject, and then having some of those same people from that thread start up new threads on pretty much the same topic.

I do agree that some minor changes need to happen, but hopefully Anet doesn’t give in to the pressure and make a complete 180 to the NPE, because I believe some of these changes are good for the game.

So I can’t wait to chime in when all the fixes are done. Should be interesting.

I agree with you about this. I think it’s premature to gauge how NPE will play at the current time, because we do know changes are coming.

And yes, you do see some forum members making the same points again and again. That truly is not helpful to the review and discussion, in that the devs would prefer a focused, clear, concise statement rather than realizing “Wait, it’s that same person, saying the same thing for the 19th time.”

Glad that you have pointed out that they are being obvious and the result is negative (for them and the forums in general).

Yargesh.4965:

Gaile Gray.6029:

JackDaniels.1697:

Everybody that hates the NPE is going to take over the discussion after all the fixes have been released I believe. You’re going to see multiple posts by the same people that hate it, and it’s going to seem like a lot more people dislike the new changes, when in reality, it’s just those same people that really want to make their point across. And not that there is anything wrong with posting more than once, it is a discussion after all, but you get my point.

I mean you can see the evidence of it now, with people complaining in one thread over the subject, and then having some of those same people from that thread start up new threads on pretty much the same topic.

I do agree that some minor changes need to happen, but hopefully Anet doesn’t give in to the pressure and make a complete 180 to the NPE, because I believe some of these changes are good for the game.

So I can’t wait to chime in when all the fixes are done. Should be interesting.

I agree with you about this. I think it’s premature to gauge how NPE will play at the current time, because we do know changes are coming.

And yes, you do see some forum members making the same points again and again. That truly is not helpful to the review and discussion, in that the devs would prefer a focused, clear, concise statement rather than realizing “Wait, it’s that same person, saying the same thing for the 19th time.”

Glad that you have pointed out that they are being obvious and the result is negative (for them and the forums in general).

whats your opinion on the new changes, what if anything would you do to make it more attractive/informative for new players of various skill levels, and vets who dont have 1-20 scrolls?

Gaile Gray.6029:

I don’t recall seeing that. Granted, my viewpoint is different, but I really think I see a bug called a bug and a change called a change.

Chris or one of our designers is your better source for info on this. But my impression is that we don’t “sugar coat” actual changes by dressing them up in a bug suit.

I thought, when the patch went live, the utility slots where meant to unlock at such late levels (13, 24, 35 and 40). That this was intended.
Now it’s revoked.
If it really was a bug, then I’ll apologize. Also, if someone stated that the devs thought it was a great idea, and it was changed due to the feedback given.
There are so many threads and even with the dev tracker it can be hard to keep up to date. But there really are situations when I get the feeling that some bugs are too obvious to be bugs.
So I (and it might be just me) sometimes can’t tell the difference between a bug and a good intention that’s gone wrong (and just like me, when I did something wrong, no one wants to be the one to be blamed).

Well, sorry ^^" It was mean to let It sound as if someone tries to fool the players. It’s just a feeling and something that get’s worse when I can’t understand certain changes, or lack a real explanation. Hard to explain…

I haven’t read the discussion, I don’t really want to spend any more time with this. But my problem is the existence of level gating and unlock quests/requirements. Tiered utility skills, traits since april and this new player experience all are incluced.
Those are just not something I want to ever experience for any reason, and it’s even more jarring when things are changed in the middle of things.
I loved the freedom so much.

Traced.3495:

I haven’t read the discussion, I don’t really want to spend any more time with this. But my problem is the existence of level gating and unlock quests/requirements. Tiered utility skills, traits since april and this new player experience all are incluced.
Those are just not something I want to ever experience for any reason, and it’s even more jarring when things are changed in the middle of things.
I loved the freedom so much.

Okay but most of the things that are gated after the patch were gated already before the patch. People who hate gating so much should have been complaining before the patch, not just after.

The changes to when our utility skills unlock is appreciated, that would have been on the upcoming list of mine if it hadn’t been fixed. Now on to the list:

1. Revert the story back to the way it used to be. The plot holes are huge, we want our epic fight with the legendary Eye of Zhaitain and our “last stand” to occur before we face zhaitain, not before we learn there’s multiple eyes, and pretty much everybody wants the greatest fear story arc back, including myself. Never did get to see the fellows losing respect one. And the final fight before Zhaitain always got me pumped to go kill that son of a ……..dragon >_>

2. Trait unlocks. The idea is ok, but how its gone about is really bad. The prices for simply unlocking them are very high, and the secondary method is difficult and terrible, as it makes no sense to unlock an adept trait by doing a very high level event. Make the prices lower on straight-up unlocks, and have the explore unlocks be more intuative, i.e. unlock adept traits with events/enemies lvl 40 or lower. Making them unlock account-wide would be a nice bonus as well, but probably asking for alot with that.

3. Weapon locks. The idea is nice, but maybe the weapon skills and ability to weapon swap/use offhand should come sooner. Instead of waiting until level 10 practically to be able to use every weapon skill, make each skill unlock each level, i.e. level 2 is weapon skill 2, level 3 is weapon skill 3, level 4 is weapon skill 4 and offhand use, etc. Weapon swapping can stay at its original position of level 7 with this method, or be moved down to level 6.

4. Finally, starting heals. Not a huge deal……if we could do skill point challenges whenever we want on a newer character. So really this is more about the skill points. Have it so we can do the skill points when we want, instead of making us wait until level 13 when our first utility opens up. This’ll make it possible to swap out our heal skill for something we’re more comfortable with (like Consume Conditions instead of the new starter Well of Blood for necros). Also, give us skill points every level again, instead of these skill point chunks.

Got all my primary concerns down here now, thanks for letting the community chime in and help change the whole NPE to be better for veterans and new players alike.

Edit: Oh, and the every 10 level gating of the story is a bit wierd……..livable with, but wierd, would prefer it changed back.

I agree with you about this. I think it’s premature to gauge how NPE will play at the current time, because we do know changes are coming.

But this is the thing, we (players) do not know what is coming, and the only reason we don’t know what is coming is because you guys won’t tell us. So until the updates drop, we don’t know what to expect. Because we don’t know to expect, we cannot intelligently comment on it until then, which wastes weeks and sometimes months of time in which we could be hashing out the best possible systems. Anything good that’s been added to the game recently, we probably could have had in game six months ago if you guys hadn’t been wasting time on systems that we could have told you would be base ideas from the start. I mean think of the thousands of man-hours that have been wasted on NGE elements that will have to be reverted to how they were.

When you don’t involve players in the process you end up with systems like the NGE that launched on September 9th, which clearly satisfied nobody.

Traced.3495:

I haven’t read the discussion, I don’t really want to spend any more time with this. But my problem is the existence of level gating and unlock quests/requirements. Tiered utility skills, traits since april and this new player experience all are incluced.
Those are just not something I want to ever experience for any reason, and it’s even more jarring when things are changed in the middle of things.
I loved the freedom so much.

Traits have always been level gated.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Trait&oldid=471040

Weapon skills have always been playtime gated. You had to use the weapon to unlock it.

Unlock quests were added because players asked for it. They had a system like it in Guild Wars 1 for skills. If you have a example of a trait unlock that is particularly offensive that you find is out of balance (Previous example unlocking a adapt trait by map completion of Frostgorge Sound) they are accepting feedback.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Game-Updates-Traits/page/41#post4358626

How would you put in a system that allows for newer and less experienced players to have the time they needed to learn things while making it easier for experienced players to speed up the process and have more freedom?

Gaile Gray.6029:

I agree with you about this. I think it’s premature to gauge how NPE will play at the current time, because we do know changes are coming.

And yes, you do see some forum members making the same points again and again. That truly is not helpful to the review and discussion, in that the devs would prefer a focused, clear, concise statement rather than realizing “Wait, it’s that same person, saying the same thing for the 19th time.”

I wonder if it is safe to assume because of this that the patch changes today were only the beginning of the planned changes for the NPE. Because it seems like the issues in the opening of this thread were addressed in the recent patch with the exception of the personal story. I wonder this so I can time my postings for providing proper feedback on the system as I feel it still needs some polish. The biggest issues with it I feel are resolved however.

phys.7689:

Yargesh.4965:

Gaile Gray.6029:

JackDaniels.1697:

Everybody that hates the NPE is going to take over the discussion after all the fixes have been released I believe. You’re going to see multiple posts by the same people that hate it, and it’s going to seem like a lot more people dislike the new changes, when in reality, it’s just those same people that really want to make their point across. And not that there is anything wrong with posting more than once, it is a discussion after all, but you get my point.

I mean you can see the evidence of it now, with people complaining in one thread over the subject, and then having some of those same people from that thread start up new threads on pretty much the same topic.

I do agree that some minor changes need to happen, but hopefully Anet doesn’t give in to the pressure and make a complete 180 to the NPE, because I believe some of these changes are good for the game.

So I can’t wait to chime in when all the fixes are done. Should be interesting.

I agree with you about this. I think it’s premature to gauge how NPE will play at the current time, because we do know changes are coming.

And yes, you do see some forum members making the same points again and again. That truly is not helpful to the review and discussion, in that the devs would prefer a focused, clear, concise statement rather than realizing “Wait, it’s that same person, saying the same thing for the 19th time.”

Glad that you have pointed out that they are being obvious and the result is negative (for them and the forums in general).

whats your opinion on the new changes, what if anything would you do to make it more attractive/informative for new players of various skill levels, and vets who dont have 1-20 scrolls?

Lol you are funny. I’ll bite though.
I know I have eight level 80s and I am not remotely the target of these updates.
I know I have taken a character from lvl 1-16 after the Sept patch and found the process smooth.
I know that the game is still enjoyable after two years for me.
I think the game could be expanded.
I think it will be.
I think they could improve pr but I think every company in existence could.
I think being personally insulted by a game is similar to being personally insulted by a tree. Smile, nod and move away from people who say that.

The old system works FINE. Revert ALL the changes except for the level up reward.

Yargesh.4965:

phys.7689:

Yargesh.4965:

Gaile Gray.6029:

JackDaniels.1697:

Everybody that hates the NPE is going to take over the discussion after all the fixes have been released I believe. You’re going to see multiple posts by the same people that hate it, and it’s going to seem like a lot more people dislike the new changes, when in reality, it’s just those same people that really want to make their point across. And not that there is anything wrong with posting more than once, it is a discussion after all, but you get my point.

I mean you can see the evidence of it now, with people complaining in one thread over the subject, and then having some of those same people from that thread start up new threads on pretty much the same topic.

I do agree that some minor changes need to happen, but hopefully Anet doesn’t give in to the pressure and make a complete 180 to the NPE, because I believe some of these changes are good for the game.

So I can’t wait to chime in when all the fixes are done. Should be interesting.

I agree with you about this. I think it’s premature to gauge how NPE will play at the current time, because we do know changes are coming.

And yes, you do see some forum members making the same points again and again. That truly is not helpful to the review and discussion, in that the devs would prefer a focused, clear, concise statement rather than realizing “Wait, it’s that same person, saying the same thing for the 19th time.”

Glad that you have pointed out that they are being obvious and the result is negative (for them and the forums in general).

whats your opinion on the new changes, what if anything would you do to make it more attractive/informative for new players of various skill levels, and vets who dont have 1-20 scrolls?

Lol you are funny. I’ll bite though.
I know I have eight level 80s and I am not remotely the target of these updates.
I know I have taken a character from lvl 1-16 after the Sept patch and found the process smooth.
I know that the game is still enjoyable after two years for me.
I think the game could be expanded.
I think it will be.
I think they could improve pr but I think every company in existence could.
I think being personally insulated by a game is similar to being personally insulated by a tree. Smile, nod and move away from people who say that.

so I take this as, you mostly dont care, but find NPE adequate for its goals. fair enough

Stars.2179:

The old system works FINE. Revert ALL the changes except for the level up reward.

Old system doesn’t work fine though. The old system works fine for you. Colin was quite definitely sure that it wasn’t good enough after having tested it. Which means that their testing is greater than any one person’s opinion. Changes had to be made.

All that’s really on the table here is altering the changes, because it won’t be reverted.

Yeah Vayne? Which part of the old system doesn’t work fine? You mean it’s too confusing to pick up cow feed to feed cow? Or do you mean rewarding a skill point for leveling up? Or is it too confusing to unlock a weapon skill by actually USING the said weapon Or is it too confusing to actually be able to jump straight into your personal story at level one?