Guild Wars 2

So I wrote a topic on this to see if NPE can be toggled off. Sadly, the responses I got are were negative, which is disappointing.
I got a 2nd account, to play on NA. I supported Anet by getting a 2nd account. And how was I rewarded for this loyalty? By being forced to grind through ridiculously level-gated content just to unlock the principal game mechanics. Not just getting bored to death by initial leveling grind, but also by the shear amount of skill points and money needed for the builds that I want.

“Play how you want”? Does not exist anymore. “No grind”. Another broken promise.
I will not be recommending the game to anyone and discouraging my friends & gamer communities online from buying the game, until NPE is reverted or the ability to toggle it off is introduced.
Cause as a human being, I believe my skills and intelligence are higher than those of an amoeba, for which this NPE was designed.

Galphar.3901:

The funny this is that at release we didn’t have those problems. These were introduced starting in last April with the Traits changes and then last September with the NPE.

But we had other problems.

Vayne.8563:

Galphar.3901:

The funny this is that at release we didn’t have those problems. These were introduced starting in last April with the Traits changes and then last September with the NPE.

But we had other problems.

Some of which were fixed to this day, some of which weren’t. Still doesn’t change the fact that the traits overhaul and leveling NPE created a whole other load of problems.

The NPE can be largely mitigated with the use of Experience Scrolls that boost your character to lv20. Unfortunately these are only given out sparsely. Birthday rewards, so when a character has existed for a year, and 5K achievement chests (5K, 10K, 15K, etc).

So not a good solution for people who picked up the game post-NPE as you’ll likely only have 1 or 2 of these.
But if you do you skip straight to lv20. From this starting point you get all utility skills and basic functionality (downed state, etc) unlocked. And your first trait is only 10 levels away, and your first Elite 11 levels.
That still leaves objectionable faults in the NPE, but the brunt of it is mitigated for the veteran players.

The Trait overhaul, now that was just straight up a disaster. Whoever thought it was a good idea to lock basic essentials of a profession behind achievements was not on their a-game that day… Neither were the people who thought it was a good idea.
And the cost of buying them from the vendor are ridiculous as well.

The adept one’s are manageable at 2skillpoints + 10s. But even that ramps up massively if you want to get all of them. But the Master and Grand Master traits are far to expensive. Not only costing a lot of gold, something a new player doesn’t have, but also costing a lot of skill points, another thing new players don’t have.

Vayne.8563:

Galphar.3901:

The funny this is that at release we didn’t have those problems. These were introduced starting in last April with the Traits changes and then last September with the NPE.

But we had other problems.

Nothing major until November 15, 2012, when ascended gear was introduced. It’s been downhill ever since. /e opinion

Tachenon.5270:

Vayne.8563:

Galphar.3901:

The funny this is that at release we didn’t have those problems. These were introduced starting in last April with the Traits changes and then last September with the NPE.

But we had other problems.

Nothing major until November 15, 2012, when ascended gear was introduced. It’s been downhill ever since. /e opinion

I’d say culling in WvW was major. You might disagree. I’d say that not being able to craft from your bank was pretty major or at least a major pain in the kitten. Not being able to preview items on the auction house. Pretty major if you ask me.

More to the point, the NPE fixed things which used to be problems and yes, created other problems. The reason I say it used to be problems is because people did come to the forums and ask certain questions repeatedly. Many thought they were doing something wrong, because they were underleveled for the next story quest, and didn’t know that you weren’t supposed to run them in a row.

There are always going to be problems. Always.

storm.9471:

Vayne.8563:

Galphar.3901:

The funny this is that at release we didn’t have those problems. These were introduced starting in last April with the Traits changes and then last September with the NPE.

But we had other problems.

Some of which were fixed to this day, some of which weren’t. Still doesn’t change the fact that the traits overhaul and leveling NPE created a whole other load of problems.

I agree some problems were created, but I think many people are ignoring the fact that some problems were solved too.

Vayne.8563:

storm.9471:

Vayne.8563:

Galphar.3901:

The funny this is that at release we didn’t have those problems. These were introduced starting in last April with the Traits changes and then last September with the NPE.

But we had other problems.

Some of which were fixed to this day, some of which weren’t. Still doesn’t change the fact that the traits overhaul and leveling NPE created a whole other load of problems.

I agree some problems were created, but I think many people are ignoring the fact that some problems were solved too.

Well, from something that is supposed to be an “improvement” update, you’d expect things to be fixed. You do not expect more problems.
And with a lit of problems looming over the game, I don’t see why one would decide to “fix” something that isn’t broken only to make it more akin to the grindy China client.

I want people to Google “SWG NGE”.

Somebody at Sony also thought that was a good idea, and it basically killed the game.

So same thing happened here with the NPE. Somebody thought it was a good idea, and killed the game.

In both cases, the developer behind it, likely didn’t see this outcome beforehand.

storm.9471:

Vayne.8563:

storm.9471:

Vayne.8563:

Galphar.3901:

The funny this is that at release we didn’t have those problems. These were introduced starting in last April with the Traits changes and then last September with the NPE.

But we had other problems.

Some of which were fixed to this day, some of which weren’t. Still doesn’t change the fact that the traits overhaul and leveling NPE created a whole other load of problems.

I agree some problems were created, but I think many people are ignoring the fact that some problems were solved too.

Well, from something that is supposed to be an “improvement” update, you’d expect things to be fixed. You do not expect more problems.
And with a lit of problems looming over the game, I don’t see why one would decide to “fix” something that isn’t broken only to make it more akin to the grindy China client.

This is categorically untrue. Every solution breeds new problems. It’s normal in programming. The account wallet was absolutely one of the best updates Anet ever did, but some people ended up with problems because of it. It’s not a problem with a capital P but a problem nonetheless.

People wanted to keep money separate on different characters, because they were different people. Some people hated that they couldn’t keep money in their bank anymore, because they had no discipline. We saw both complaints…but those problems were superceded by the problems the wallet fixed. Saying something new should fix all problems is just not true.

More to the point, the real problem Anet was trying to fix with this is how many people left the game without getting to level 10 or 20 in the old system. If they improved that number, the other problems aren’t as big, because they solved the problem they were trying to solve.

Knighthonor.4061:

I want people to Google “SWG NGE”.

Somebody at Sony also thought that was a good idea, and it basically killed the game.

So same thing happened here with the NPE. Somebody thought it was a good idea, and killed the game.

In both cases, the developer behind it, likely didn’t see this outcome beforehand.

Bad analogy is bad. Sony made major changes to a profession making the hard work people had done to get it meaningless. It affected all the Jedis. That was one thing. There were also changes made to combat that persisted throughout the game.

Most NPE changes only affect the early levels and many of those only on the first character.

Misleading comparison is misleading.

I bought a second account 2 days ago and all I can say is – god… the NPE is broken and insulting. I am HAPPY that I started playing before it came out. Otherwise I wouldn’t play at all.

Knighthonor.4061:

I want people to Google “SWG NGE”.

Somebody at Sony also thought that was a good idea, and it basically killed the game.

So same thing happened here with the NPE. Somebody thought it was a good idea, and killed the game.

In both cases, the developer behind it, likely didn’t see this outcome beforehand.

Considering how many friends / guildies left the game, yes GW2 is in the same state. or it was, before the announcement of HoT. Though ppl have returned after PAX South and left again.

Vayne.8563:

More to the point, the real problem Anet was trying to fix with this is how many people left the game without getting to level 10 or 20 in the old system. If they improved that number, the other problems aren’t as big, because they solved the problem they were trying to solve.

I’ll never stop wondering just WHO is their source. How many people (sample size)? What was their reasoning? How did Anet test their opinion? Why isn’t this public? Why GW2 players and vets on here and reddit never saw any trace of an opinion poll etc?
I never saw any kind of poll on my experience in GW2, nor have I hear of such a thing.
Who left the game due to old system being confusing? Some bacteria-grade organism judging by how utterly brainless and dull the new NPE is.

Thaia.5146:

I bought a second account 2 days ago and all I can say is – god… the NPE is broken and insulting. I am HAPPY that I started playing before it came out. Otherwise I wouldn’t play at all.

Same here, my friend. Same here. We supported Anet, but in turn, they insult our intelligence.

storm.9471:

Knighthonor.4061:

I want people to Google “SWG NGE”.

Somebody at Sony also thought that was a good idea, and it basically killed the game.

So same thing happened here with the NPE. Somebody thought it was a good idea, and killed the game.

In both cases, the developer behind it, likely didn’t see this outcome beforehand.

Considering how many friends / guildies left the game, I think GW2 would be in the same state if not for the announcement of HoT.

Vayne.8563:

More to the point, the real problem Anet was trying to fix with this is how many people left the game without getting to level 10 or 20 in the old system. If they improved that number, the other problems aren’t as big, because they solved the problem they were trying to solve.

I’ll never stop wondering just WHO is their source. How many people? What was their reasoning? How did Anet test theor opinion? Why isn’t this public. Why GW2 players and vets on here and reddit never saw any trace of an opinion poll etc?
I never saw any kind of poll on my experience in GW2, nor have I hear of such a thing.
Who left the game due to old system being confusing? Some bacteria-grade organism judging by how utterly brainless and dull the new NPE is.

It’s not public because it’s none of our business but the info itself came straight from Colin during early complaints. He talked about the uptake of the game from low levels before the NPE being “absolutely not good enough enough.”

I’m pretty sure it came from the number of people during their free trial weekends that played till level 10 or 20 and just walked away.

Anet’s source is their data. It’s gotta be better than my sources.

For those who say Anet is insulting their intelligence, I find that pretty interesting.

If you understand and you had no problem then it’s not YOUR intelligence that’s being insulted. Maybe people need to stop being so self-centered and realize not everyone is as intelligent as they are and some people DO need more help and more time to get used to things.

If someone simplified something that made it less convenient for me, but helped other people, I wouldn’t say MY intelligence was being insulted.

Maybe it’s just a security thing, but unless you have good reason to believe these changes were directed at you specifically, why be insulted. It’s at the very least thin-skinned.

Vayne.8563:

~snip~
Maybe people need to stop being so self-centered and realize not everyone is as intelligent as they are and some people DO need more help and more time to get used to things.
~snip~

Oh I perfectly understand that some people DO need more help but other people DON’T so why force them to deal with this stupidity? Let me turn this whole NPE bullkitten off and I’ll have absolutely no problem at all with it beeing in game.

Just run around in EotM for a bit. I got from lvl 2-20 in under 2 hours last night on my second account. Gonna wait till lvl 60 before I use my scrolls, wool/cotton/linen drops are more appealing to me.

Vayne.8563:

Knighthonor.4061:

I want people to Google “SWG NGE”.

Somebody at Sony also thought that was a good idea, and it basically killed the game.

So same thing happened here with the NPE. Somebody thought it was a good idea, and killed the game.

In both cases, the developer behind it, likely didn’t see this outcome beforehand.

Bad analogy is bad. Sony made major changes to a profession making the hard work people had done to get it meaningless. It affected all the Jedis. That was one thing. There were also changes made to combat that persisted throughout the game.

Most NPE changes only affect the early levels and many of those only on the first character.

Misleading comparison is misleading.

Of course it’s misleading to you,,,,, of all people… We can see why you, off all people would say that……

The NPE, didn’t just effect new players. It effected vets that already know how to play the game. But it also made the game horrible for new players as well. They both had the same effect on the game. People left in masses. Leveling became more boring, leading to more zerg trains, since you had less options for playing a character now, especially in WvW.

NPE was here to appear to the East, and even they don’t like the game. It was a total waste of resources. And ruined the company’s image in the eyes of many. Because now we as consumers know, that our voices and opinions aren’t going to be heard at all. There was the massive Trait thread as well, which we had to wait all the way till the expansion reveal in order to get a Developer’s response on acknowledging the flaws in their game design. That’s months of feedback, that went unanswered.

When the next time something bad like this hits the game, will we once again have to wait a year for it to at least be acknowledged by the developers as a mistake?

I bought another account while on sale this weekend. I enjoyed the fresh start, this account even without the benefit of a linked GW1 account for free goodies. I enjoyed unlocking things, like skins, and everything having a fresh and unexplored feel to it.

What I did not care for was just being able to explore freely. Why can’t I see all the POI’s, skill points, vistas, etc? And why, since I’ve made it to a skill point, can’t I claim it? Why is that level locked when I can’t pick a utility skill for quite a while anyway? I can’t see the benefit of that. It just means I have to go back to that location when skill points are unlocked and redo that content. Not a game breaker, but annoying.

But overall, I don’t mind the NPE.

zenleto.6179:

And I stand by what I said. Including the find your own fun bit.

This is the biggest nonsense ever. I can’t believe people actually defend this NPE monstrosity. With such nonsense arguments too. “Find your own fun bit”? What part of “the leveling with the NPE is not fun” do you not understand? How can we find “our own fun bit” when the entire thing just isn’t fun?

OP, I did find a solution to circumvent this NPE nonsense, even on a new 2nd account: sPvP.

I got myself a 2nd account and after rage quitting the game several times because of the NPE I decided to just level up my toon through sPvP with the ‘tomes of knowledge’ that the PvP reward tracks keep handing out. Leveling will be slower that way, but a lot less tedious.

Obviously unlocking your traits for PvE/WvW is still going to be a hellish grind, but that’s not something that can be circumvented sadly enough.

Vayne.8563:

storm.9471:

Knighthonor.4061:

I want people to Google “SWG NGE”.

Somebody at Sony also thought that was a good idea, and it basically killed the game.

So same thing happened here with the NPE. Somebody thought it was a good idea, and killed the game.

In both cases, the developer behind it, likely didn’t see this outcome beforehand.

Considering how many friends / guildies left the game, I think GW2 would be in the same state if not for the announcement of HoT.

Vayne.8563:

More to the point, the real problem Anet was trying to fix with this is how many people left the game without getting to level 10 or 20 in the old system. If they improved that number, the other problems aren’t as big, because they solved the problem they were trying to solve.

I’ll never stop wondering just WHO is their source. How many people? What was their reasoning? How did Anet test theor opinion? Why isn’t this public. Why GW2 players and vets on here and reddit never saw any trace of an opinion poll etc?
I never saw any kind of poll on my experience in GW2, nor have I hear of such a thing.
Who left the game due to old system being confusing? Some bacteria-grade organism judging by how utterly brainless and dull the new NPE is.

It’s not public because it’s none of our business but the info itself came straight from Colin during early complaints. He talked about the uptake of the game from low levels before the NPE being “absolutely not good enough enough.”

I’m pretty sure it came from the number of people during their free trial weekends that played till level 10 or 20 and just walked away.

Anet’s source is their data. It’s gotta be better than my sources.

Dude, the NPE didn’t JUST EFFECT NEW PLAYERS!!!! It was something all accounts had to deal with, even those with multiple 80s and been playing their Alts for a while.

I know how to play my classes. I didn’t need any of this NPE mess to do any of that for me. But I didn’t get any CHOICE to turn it off or not.

I also believe new players should also have that freedom to choose to use it or not. I played since beta, and never had a problem learning how to play, with the original system. So I wouldn’t want this junk FORCED ON ANYBODY!!!

LucosTheDutch.4819:

zenleto.6179:

And I stand by what I said. Including the find your own fun bit.

This is the biggest nonsense ever. I can’t believe people actually defend this NPE monstrosity. With such nonsense arguments too. “Find your own fun bit”? What part of “the leveling with the NPE is not fun” do you not understand? How can we find “our own fun bit” when the entire thing just isn’t fun?

The game is exactly the same, just with a few things locked… at levels you can reach very quickly. If you simply don’t rage about the things being locked, then leveling is pretty much as fun as it always was.

People who never played before the NPE are coming in and thinking GW2 is an amazing game.

Now, given a choice between the NPE and the original leveling, I’d choose the original one, yes. But it’s really not a big deal. All you really have to do is level and enjoy the actual game, instead of raging, and it passes by very quickly and without any real detraction from the quality of the experience.

The NPE exists because Anet accumulated a lot of feedback on their original system and original progression and players apparently did find it overwhelming and confusing.

Its difficult to comment directly on this since we do not have access to that info, however I have encountered many players who simply didnt get GW2 and genuinely did find it confusing. The intentions behind the change were at least sound.

The problem with the NPE now is that hundreds of thousands ppl clearly had no issue with it simply shown by those playing , who stuck with the game. There were things that needed addressing, unfortunately for many players, problems that didnt need a fix got one anyway. That really has become the core of the controversy.

Will this NPE stay? Highly unlikely. They’ve mentioned already work on reverting some things and NPEs in mmos constantly change. Either before HoT or released with, id be confident in seeing changes again.

Is the NPE an unmitigated disaster? Of course not, its pure hyperbole to suggest otherwise. Is it better than the launch version? Subjectively speaking, no it isnt imo.

shadow.6174:

Snow.2048:

I just want my natural weapon skill unlocking again. That change alone was heartbreaking.

Highlight is mine, isn’t it more clear about how it was before?

No, I would say there is no difference between how “clear” either were. You play the game, and you suddenly get skills added to your bar either way. Just one you got from using your weapon, which is very natural and the other you get them at set levels that limit your build until you get there. If you wanted more skills with the previous system, you went and practiced with the weapon. If you want more skill now, tough luck just keep leveling.

I won’t say that the system takes longer, or is more grindy when it comes to weapon skills necessarily. But now its just the typical you leveled, here is a new skill that almost every single MMO I played has. The natural unlocking at the beginning made the game feel new and exciting and different, even if it wasn’t actually that different at all. That was the beauty of the system.

Personally, that made me feel more like I was progressing a character than the cheesy DING! of me crossing another level off my checklist ever did.

Why buy a second account when the NPE is even in place?

Edit: Got merged, this one was from a different thread

Snow.2048:

shadow.6174:

Snow.2048:

I just want my natural weapon skill unlocking again. That change alone was heartbreaking.

Highlight is mine, isn’t it more clear about how it was before?

No, I would say there is no difference between how “clear” either were. You play the game, and you suddenly get skills added to your bar either way. Just one you got from using your weapon, which is very natural and the other you get them at set levels that limit your build until you get there. If you wanted more skills with the previous system, you went and practiced with the weapon. If you want more skill now, tough luck just keep leveling.

I won’t say that the system takes longer, or is more grindy when it comes to weapon skills necessarily. But now its just the typical you leveled, here is a new skill that almost every single MMO I played has. The natural unlocking at the beginning made the game feel new and exciting and different, even if it wasn’t actually that different at all. That was the beauty of the system.

Personally, that made me feel more like I was progressing a character than the cheesy DING! of me crossing another level off my checklist ever did.

I may have not worded well there. I wasn’t saying toward you or something, I just used your quote to highlight a thing: “natural”. Yes, the old system was more “natural” than now. Currently it feels like you “earn” the right to use skills instead “learning” how to use skills. My thoughts about it are very same as yours. My question there was more like rhetoric, hehe.

Terrahero.9358:

The NPE can be largely mitigated with the use of Experience Scrolls that boost your character to lv20. Unfortunately these are only given out sparsely. Birthday rewards, so when a character has existed for a year, and 5K achievement chests (5K, 10K, 15K, etc).

So not a good solution for people who picked up the game post-NPE as you’ll likely only have 1 or 2 of these.
But if you do you skip straight to lv20. From this starting point you get all utility skills and basic functionality (downed state, etc) unlocked. And your first trait is only 10 levels away, and your first Elite 11 levels.
That still leaves objectionable faults in the NPE, but the brunt of it is mitigated for the veteran players.

Yup, that’s an option but it shouldn’t be needed before all. That’s a workaround and workarounds don’t fix stuff. It seems like veteran players weren’t taken into account or were ignored/left aside when this NPE was planned, then in order to workaround the situation those Writs of Experience and others stuff began to be given to players.

Vayne.8563:

More to the point, the NPE fixed things which used to be problems and yes, created other problems. The reason I say it used to be problems is because people did come to the forums and ask certain questions repeatedly. Many thought they were doing something wrong, because they were underleveled for the next story quest, and didn’t know that you weren’t supposed to run them in a row.

There are always going to be problems. Always.

Ok so, could you tell what type of issues it fixed? In my personal experience I had no major issues and when I had some minor one I could find help easily (that former Help panel was somewhat helpful). Regarding the story quest, in my case I never thought I was doing something wrong for being underleveled, contrariwise I would see it as “it wasn’t the time for it yet”.

Of course there always will be problems, but if like, let’s say, fixing 3 issues would bring up 7, it wouldn’t worth the trade off huh.

Vayne.8563:

I’m pretty sure it came from the number of people during their free trial weekends that played till level 10 or 20 and just walked away.

Well, that doesn’t mean much. Maybe some people played during trial and never returned due not being able to purchase the game. I know a few ones that did so and even myself, I played a trial once and only bought the game months later.

Thaia.5146:

Vayne.8563:

~snip~
Maybe people need to stop being so self-centered and realize not everyone is as intelligent as they are and some people DO need more help and more time to get used to things.
~snip~

Oh I perfectly understand that some people DO need more help but other people DON’T so why force them to deal with this stupidity? Let me turn this whole NPE bullkitten off and I’ll have absolutely no problem at all with it beeing in game.

Exactly. Also neither everyone is so dumb. Simplifying things to help those who don’t understand or take more time to learn is always nice, I’m all for that. But forcing it down everyone’s throat, even for those who don’t need it, yes, is an issue and can feel insulting. How would you feel when at high school, after years and years of study and some experience acquired, your teacher would take a whole class time to teach you how to do basic calculations like 1+1? Wouldn’t it be annoying and maybe insulting for not taking in account people’s previous knowledge? Wouldn’t it be easier to take those with difficulties to a separate class for a more individualized assistance, letting them take their time to learn, while letting vet doing their thing as they already know? Doesn’t it all make any sense?

And yes, it’s insulting to be treated like “oh do you want to interact with this skill point? Sorry, we think you are not ready for this yet. We think you are not able to fight it or commune with it yet. Come back when we think you are more experienced.” It’s possible even those with some learning difficulty could feel annoyed by this. (or like in my own experience once in a lvl 80 at a starter map: “oh do you want to buy traits? Sorry, we think you aren’t experienced enough for it. Come back when we think you are more experienced.”)

Snow.2048:

I just want my natural weapon skill unlocking again. That change alone was heartbreaking.

Agreed, in a way it just kills my experience within the starting boss battle.
Instead of killing Centaurs to build up my weapon skills, I just zoom straight to the giant Elemental hands and get it over with.

This change detracts from the earlier experiences I had.

Snow.2048:

Why buy a second account when the NPE is even in place?

Edit: Got merged, this one was from a different thread

Because second account was cheap and many people have hope that Anet (?the Company?) would at some point, actually sit down and listen to us for once and remove it down the road. Problem is we been waiting a while for that point. And Anet doesnt talk to us or tell us anything. We had to wait until an expansion reveal to get info if they were going to right their wrongs. And we still dont know what they plan to do to fix it, because they make thses radical bad changes without a word from the public. Maybe if they ran a public open test realm like World of Warcraft and Rift does, the community would be happier and give more feedback.

Snow.2048:

Why buy a second account when the NPE is even in place?

Edit: Got merged, this one was from a different thread

Because second account was cheap and many people have hope that Anet (?the Company?) would at some point, actually sit down and listen to us for once and remove it down the road. Problem is we been waiting a while for that point. And Anet doesnt talk to us or tell us anything. We had to wait until an expansion reveal to get info if they were going to right their wrongs. And we still dont know what they plan to do to fix it, because they make thses radical bad changes without a word from the public. Maybe if they ran a public open test realm like World of Warcraft and Rift does, the community would be happier and give more feedback.

Queensdale Map Chat Before NPE

New PLayer: How do I do X?
Vet player: Simple answer.
Other Vet Player: More in depth answer.
Another Player: Also, you can do Y.
Yet Another Player: Z is pretty awesome too!

Queensdale Map Chat Post NPE
New PLayer: Why can’t I do X?
Vet Player: Because you aren’t high enough level.

Not sure if anyone else sees this particular inherent flaw.

The recent sale brings me here again.

I want the NPE to disappear.

Maybe the game is even cheaper in six months or so, I really want some more accounts even with the trait uncertainty but no way I want to pay that much money right now. I want the accounts more than I want to completely shun GW2 but I am still pretty stubborn.
I am under the impression that even the wardrobe is locked away and those accounts are for vanity. And outside possible home instance gathering if that is even possible anymore (no idea) my still distant future characters will not level until they can hit insta-80, year or more later.
There is no way I can tolerate playing new characters after traits and NPE situation.

Olvendred.3027:

Now, given a choice between the NPE and the original leveling, I’d choose the original one, yes. But it’s really not a big deal. All you really have to do is level and enjoy the actual game, instead of raging, and it passes by very quickly and without any real detraction from the quality of the experience.

Same and exactly.

For anyone wondering WTF is he on! to my comments then go back to the first pages of this thread to see what I think of certain aspects of the NPE. I even took two months off at the end of last year because of what I don’t like. But the basic leveling is no different.

Why vets would feel like they’re having their hands held is beyond me. Ignore the kitten hand and go on to do what you’d normally do and where you’d do it.

Continuing to level my new character, the system continues to be incredibly frustrating. I’m through most of it now, in terms of the unlocks… level 52, so I have my elite skill unlocked, but I’m still unable to unlock Master and Grandmaster traits, and just realized I won’t get the Grandmaster traits until level 80.

I will say again, if my wife and I hadn’t already played the game in the past and didn’t want to play it specifically, I wouldn’t still be here, and it would be a direct result of the “New Player Experience”… which seems to translate as “we assume everyone in the world is a moron, and will treat them like such.”

I’m sure others (in particular, Vayne) will disagree with me, but as a player who used to play, left for a long time, then came back, this system was almost enough to drive me away again because of how much less enjoyable it has made the leveling experience. Whether you agree or disagree with me is your opinion, of course, but you cannot deny that I feel this way, because I do. Hell, I wound up having to come to the forums to learn that these things were all level based now, and that there was nothing I could do fix it.

zenleto.6179:

Same and exactly.

For anyone wondering WTF is he on! to my comments then go back to the first pages of this thread to see what I think of certain aspects of the NPE. I even took two months off at the end of last year because of what I don’t like. But the basic leveling is no different.

Why vets would feel like they’re having their hands held is beyond me. Ignore the kitten hand and go on to do what you’d normally do and where you’d do it.

Nope. The stat slump, dancing for cows, PS gating, redundant level rewards, and weapon skills/underwater combat/profession mechanics/downed state gating, etc. all exist regardless of whether it’s your first character or 500th.

shadow.6174:

Exactly. Also neither everyone is so dumb. Simplifying things to help those who don’t understand or take more time to learn is always nice, I’m all for that. But forcing it down everyone’s throat, even for those who don’t need it, yes, is an issue and can feel insulting. How would you feel when at high school, after years and years of study and some experience acquired, your teacher would take a whole class time to teach you how to do basic calculations like 1+1? Wouldn’t it be annoying and maybe insulting for not taking in account people’s previous knowledge? Wouldn’t it be easier to take those with difficulties to a separate class for a more individualized assistance, letting them take their time to learn, while letting vet doing their thing as they already know? Doesn’t it all make any sense?

And yes, it’s insulting to be treated like “oh do you want to interact with this skill point? Sorry, we think you are not ready for this yet. We think you are not able to fight it or commune with it yet. Come back when we think you are more experienced.” It’s possible even those with some learning difficulty could feel annoyed by this. (or like in my own experience once in a lvl 80 at a starter map: “oh do you want to buy traits? Sorry, we think you aren’t experienced enough for it. Come back when we think you are more experienced.”)

Not to mention that it often fails to do just that, and instead makes things even more confusing. Examples being all the “Why can’t I see SPs/Vistas” questions, bombarding someone unfamiliar with a weapon with 5 new weapon skills instead of letting people become familiar with the weapon first by using it, making people wonder what the whole intro was all about since you can’t continue the story until lvl 10, and locking out the guild interface when one of the best ways for new players to ask for help is to join a guild, amongst others.

Knighthonor.4061:

…
Because now we as consumers know, that our voices and opinions aren’t going to be heard at all
….
When the next time something bad like this hits the game, will we once again have to wait a year for it to at least be acknowledged by the developers as a mistake?

I’ve wondered about that ~six pages ago and we still got no official statement. Not even a “We have recoginzed all your complaints but won’t change anything since we don’t care at all”. I bet they don’t even read what we write here anymore and just let us continue with our criticism until the end of Guild Wars 2. If you are right that it takes them about a year for seeing what bull-tihS they served us, we “might” get a statement in about… seven months? Yey!!

…my company management recently fired a co-worker of mine for being to rude and ignorant infront of our customers. I might encourage her to apply to ArenaNet, seems like she would fit well in there.

Monkey Fritz.9052:

Queensdale Map Chat Before NPE

New PLayer: How do I do X?
Vet player: Simple answer.
Other Vet Player: More in depth answer.
Another Player: Also, you can do Y.
Yet Another Player: Z is pretty awesome too!

Queensdale Map Chat Post NPE
New PLayer: Why can’t I do X?
Vet Player: Because you aren’t high enough level.

Not sure if anyone else sees this particular inherent flaw.

Truly sad enough…

Aside note: yay for merging threads and messing up posts lol. Just kidding, it gets a bit confused until catch up again but good to have everything in a single place.

I think we all should be less upset at ArenaNet for this. The reason for them not doing something about this yet is that they are focused on content that is deemed more important. I would prefer for them to focus on HoT instead of this, but wanted to offer some constructive advice in case some of the devs have some spare time.

We all should acknowledge that the NPE was effective at solving the problem they were trying to solve: that leveling up wasn’t rewarding. It now is rewarding, but the solution to the old problem brought about a new problem: too much content is locked out by level.

Whatever the solution to the new problem is, it shouldn’t revert us back to the old problem. We still want leveling up to be rewarding. One solution to this is to use items as rewards instead of mechanics, but to keep the overall structure of the level up system.

Getting angry at ArenaNet is not going to solve anything. Giving constructive criticism and comments can make a difference if the devs don’t have to wade through negative comments to find them.

If you want the devs to read this, make this something the devs want to read.

Knighthonor.4061:

Vayne.8563:

Knighthonor.4061:

I want people to Google “SWG NGE”.

Somebody at Sony also thought that was a good idea, and it basically killed the game.

So same thing happened here with the NPE. Somebody thought it was a good idea, and killed the game.

In both cases, the developer behind it, likely didn’t see this outcome beforehand.

Bad analogy is bad. Sony made major changes to a profession making the hard work people had done to get it meaningless. It affected all the Jedis. That was one thing. There were also changes made to combat that persisted throughout the game.

Most NPE changes only affect the early levels and many of those only on the first character.

Misleading comparison is misleading.

Of course it’s misleading to you,,,,, of all people… We can see why you, off all people would say that……

The NPE, didn’t just effect new players. It effected vets that already know how to play the game. But it also made the game horrible for new players as well. They both had the same effect on the game. People left in masses. Leveling became more boring, leading to more zerg trains, since you had less options for playing a character now, especially in WvW.

NPE was here to appear to the East, and even they don’t like the game. It was a total waste of resources. And ruined the company’s image in the eyes of many. Because now we as consumers know, that our voices and opinions aren’t going to be heard at all. There was the massive Trait thread as well, which we had to wait all the way till the expansion reveal in order to get a Developer’s response on acknowledging the flaws in their game design. That’s months of feedback, that went unanswered.

When the next time something bad like this hits the game, will we once again have to wait a year for it to at least be acknowledged by the developers as a mistake?

No one left the NPE in masses. He’s a quote about the Star Wars NGE, so people won’t be misled by this nonsense. It’s from this article.

“http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/26/a-star-wars-galaxies-history-lesson-from-launch-to-the-nge-5/”

“Almost every system in the game – from combat to crafting, all the way through to classes – was fundamentally shaken by this patch. The NGE took what had been a skill-building character advancement system and transformed it into a level-based system with very specific classes. One of these classes was even the Jedi, meaning that players could create force-using characters from the very start. No more holo-grinding.”

Now the trait system, which was NOT part of the NPE and not released with the NPE did affect unlocking traits in the whole game, but combat hasn’t fundamentally changed here. The professions at 80 haven’t fundamentally changed here. The leveling rewards surely don’t kill the game.

No, saying this is like the Star Wars NPE is completely 100% disingenuous. These aren’t for the most part far-reaching changes and MOST of them don’t kick in on the second character you level.

Once you level your first character you can get skill points right away, you see vistas right away and yes, you can easily go into PvP right away through the crossed swords.

90% of the affects on your first character.

I can’t help it if many people lump the trait changes into the NPE and the trait changes are going away anyway.

And yes, lots and lots of people left Star Wars Galaxies over the NGE and everyone knew it. I’ve been playing this game since the feature patch and I don’t believe there was a significant drop in population.

There was a single casualty from my guild who came back when Anet made those first round of changes. I’m sure that there are people who left, but there was no mad race away from this game.

In my mind the trait system is far worse than NPE which large does affect only lower levels and largely goes away after you level one character through it.

That was NEVER true of the NGE.

Fluffy.1932:

I think we all should be less upset at ArenaNet for this. The reason for them not doing something about this yet is that they are focused on content that is deemed more important. I would prefer for them to focus on HoT instead of this, but wanted to offer some constructive advice in case some of the devs have some spare time.

We all should acknowledge that the NPE was effective at solving the problem they were trying to solve: that leveling up wasn’t rewarding. It now is rewarding, but the solution to the old problem brought about a new problem: too much content is locked out by level.

Whatever the solution to the new problem is, it shouldn’t revert us back to the old problem. We still want leveling up to be rewarding. One solution to this is to use items as rewards instead of mechanics, but to keep the overall structure of the level up system.

Getting angry at ArenaNet is not going to solve anything. Giving constructive criticism and comments can make a difference if the devs don’t have to wade through negative comments to find them.

If you want the devs to read this, make this something the devs want to read.

Unfortunately there’s this problem:

HandOfKane.5409:

Well to be honest, it takes two people or parties to have a discussion.

We’ve all said our pieces multiple times already. If Anet’s just going to create this thread several months ago and then just pretend that it doesn’t exist (save for poking in once half-heartedly saying “Hey, we didn’t forget about you! Honest!”) then there’s only so much you can discuss.

And of course it doesn’t help when one party just says “Neener! I’m right! You’re wrong! Nyahh!” ad nauseum (you know who I’m talking about).

Fluffy.1932:

The reason for them not doing something about this yet is that they are focused on content that is deemed more important. I would prefer for them to focus on HoT instead of this,

Honestly, as a programmer and software developer myself, I would prefer fixing and improving stuff than delivering more content that can even come broken as well.

Vayne.8563:

These aren’t for the most part far-reaching changes and MOST of them don’t kick in on the second character you level.

Once you level your first character you can get skill points right away, you see vistas right away and yes, you can easily go into PvP right away through the crossed swords.

90% of the affects on your first character.

Forgot second character. Once again, NPE is about FIRST character, period. It’s merely natural that second character wouldn’t be badly affected by this; in fact it never should, not even a bit. The lessening of the issues with a second character doesn’t fix all the issues with the first character, neither make them less worse, don’t use it as argument.

So… what about things like this: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Stuck-with-no-story-quest/ ? Very user friendly and intuitive system huh (nop).

Edit: Oh one more: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Liberation-Quest-1/

shadow.6174:

Fluffy.1932:

The reason for them not doing something about this yet is that they are focused on content that is deemed more important. I would prefer for them to focus on HoT instead of this,

Honestly, as a programmer and software developer myself, I would prefer fixing and improving stuff than delivering more content that can even come broken as well.

Vayne.8563:

These aren’t for the most part far-reaching changes and MOST of them don’t kick in on the second character you level.

Once you level your first character you can get skill points right away, you see vistas right away and yes, you can easily go into PvP right away through the crossed swords.

90% of the affects on your first character.

Forgot second character. Once again, NPE is about FIRST character, period. It’s merely natural that second character wouldn’t be badly affected by this; in fact it never should, not even a bit. The lessening of the issues with a second character doesn’t fix all the issues with the first character, neither make them less worse, don’t use it as argument.

It’s a valid argument. You level a character for the first time once. Two hours or less after you started leveling you barely have to think about it again. I’d call that a valid argument.

And it’s not as inconvenient as most people make out anyway. Leveling has been greatly accelerated for the first part of it, many of the complaints were fixed during the first patch and this group of people for whom this has become a hot button issue are doing just that.

I just read in a thread that more changes are coming with hot anyway. Anyone have a quote on that?

Here’s a post on reddit where someone asked new players how they feel about the leveling experience. Most of the responses are overwhelmingly positive.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2yhpai/new_players_how_is_the_leveling_experience/

Vayne.8563:

Here’s a post on reddit where someone asked new players how they feel about the leveling experience. Most of the responses are overwhelmingly positive.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2yhpai/new_players_how_is_the_leveling_experience/

It’s interesting to me, Vayne, that you’re perfectly willing to accept anecdotal evidence when it supports your theories.

So, after nearly a year…. I started a new character. A necro in prep for the greatsword. Great. Now I’ll get to see what this NPE is all about.

Uh, no. **** this sideways with a pineapple on fire.

I gave up on the NPE. I’m waiting on HoT and the revamp of the NPE before I go about unlocking the skills/traits on the necro I made. As a vet player, this is just torture to try to unlock all these skills and traits. It makes me really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really miss the old way now

Not sure if this will get read by any powers that be, but what the hey…

I am new to this game but am a MMO vet. For me this NPE is very frustrating. My sincere hope for those who are new to the genre is that it does what Arenanet hoped.

I feel handcuffed. I purchased the game based on this past weekends sale, but I have read up on it for a little while before that. I must have missed reading articles on the NPE.

So why do I feel handcuffed? Well, with an exception to combat (and that is big!), the style of gameplay is familiar to me. I “get” what I’m supposed to be doing, but because everything is level locked I can’t. Most of you are saying don’t heart chase…okay, but right now that’s all I can do. If I look at it objectively that IS all I can do. Yes, I am now aware of harvesting and crafting, but in game I haven’t been told that yet (unlocked). The only things that are giving me XP are hearts and exploration. So that’s what I do.

This is frustrating because when I read about the game I was looking forward to gaining XP in a myriad of ways including WvW. but, I can’t because it’s level locked.
If it wasn’t for the fact that I am really enjoying the combat so far I might have chalked up the $15 as a loss. But, for now I’ll wait for them to unlock then I’ll judge.

I guess I’m just tired of hand holding in MMOs. Just make a Tutorial that gives you an idea of what is about to occur, one I can skip on alts, and then let us loose to discover it all. Right now I feel forced to unlock things so I can then play.

/shrug

Magoo.5607:

I guess I’m just tired of hand holding in MMOs. Just make a Tutorial that gives you an idea of what is about to occur, one I can skip on alts, and then let us loose to discover it all. Right now I feel forced to unlock things so I can then play.

/shrug

Old way didn’t hold the hand. I much prefer it to the NPE.

Have a new guardian and I’m doing the last heart for map completion in the beginning zone. I get downed, but think, np – There’s not much health left on this guy, I’m a guardian – I got this. Except not really. I don’t have my downed skill 3 opened up yet and I get really really close, but ultimately die. At level 17 I still don’t have all my downed skills unlocked? That’s just … not right.