Guild Wars 2

John Smith.4610:

Any changes to the economic systems of any kind will be in the patch notes. This was an error, there are no economic changes that are intentionally kept from patch notes.

As someone who has done the run from time to time, but not lately.. The patch note update which was finally posted comes across mostly as a technical “see we posted a patch note.” In the skill changes, we see an attempt at a discussion of rationale, but absolutely no justification accompanying this statement.

“Champ boxes nerfed because zerkers are twits” or “because farmers made too much gold” is better than “it just was, suck it up.”

Painful honesty is better than sugar coated air.

Allisa Wonderland.8192:

John Smith.4610:

Any changes to the economic systems of any kind will be in the patch notes. This was an error, there are no economic changes that are intentionally kept from patch notes.

As someone who has done the run from time to time, but not lately.. The patch note update which was finally posted comes across mostly as a technical “see we posted a patch note.” In the skill changes, we see an attempt at a discussion of rationale, but absolutely no justification accompanying this statement.

“Champ boxes nerfed because zerkers are twits” or “because farmers made too much gold” is better than “it just was, suck it up.”

Painful honesty is better than sugar coated air.

If Mr. Smith is fronting for it, the reason should be obvious.

John Smith.4610:

Any changes to the economic systems of any kind will be in the patch notes. This was an error, there are no economic changes that are intentionally kept from patch notes.

Rule #1, John Smith.

John Smith.4610:

Changes to the game’s economic systems are often made for various and complex reasons. It’s not so simple as to say “we did A due to B”. What you’re asking for would be very hard to do, though we do encourage discussion over on the BLTC forum area.

If you say changes are done only for complex reasons, then why did you nerf champ loot? That had an extreme effect on the economy, but the change took little to no effort to do. Seems you contradicted yourself.

i would be fine with the nerf if they would have just warned before putting the patch online

The fact that the champ trains still seem to be running full tilt suggests that the “nerfing” isn’t nearly as kittenome suggest.

It’s still a ridiculously easy way to get a lot of loot with pretty much zero risk or time investment.

Qaelyn.7612:

The fact that the champ trains still seem to be running full tilt suggests that the “nerfing” isn’t nearly as kittenome suggest.

It’s still a ridiculously easy way to get a lot of loot with pretty much zero risk or time investment.

Yeah, because running the train hour after hour obviously requires zero time investment[/sarcasm]

If you really do encourage such discussion in the BLTC subforum, could you rename it to the Economy subforum?

Master Yi.6129:

John Smith.4610:

Changes to the game’s economic systems are often made for various and complex reasons. It’s not so simple as to say “we did A due to B”. What you’re asking for would be very hard to do, though we do encourage discussion over on the BLTC forum area.

If you say changes are done only for complex reasons, then why did you nerf champ loot? That had an extreme effect on the economy, but the change took little to no effort to do. Seems you contradicted yourself.

Complex Reason or result not equal complex change.

As you’ve noted simple changes can have wide reaching consequences.

So it’s sometimes best to make small controlled changes instead of huge changes, so that the effects can be predicted easier, and so the economy doesn’t feel unstable.

If you remember, champ loot originally came with the QJ update, part of that was setting the stage for an economy upheaval that was 500 level crafting.

As that change was pretty sizeable, it’s not surprising that they’ve had to tweak it a few times.

John Smith.4610:

Hello all, I looked into this because we intended to have a release note for the changes to the champion loot.
We did modify the gold and bloodstone dust coming from champion bags, and a release note will be added shortly.
What I can tell you is that we made a mistake, this one fell through the cracks and I’m truly sorry. I’ve promised before that we won’t make stealthy economic changes without notes and I mean to stick to that promise.
Thank you all for pointing out the error, we will be more vigilant in the future.
Good luck in your adventures.

Can we quote you on this after the next stealthy economic change?

Very dissapointed in Arenanet. Not only do they make a mistake in not sharing in a highly important update. Not only did they warn people to open their bags before hand. Not only didnt they discuss such an important update before hand and gave us the opportunity to discuss things with us. Not only is this the 5th nerf off a very okay farm where any logic reason is missing. But on top off that the so called economist thinks he can do with these kind of notes on our adress. Sorry to say, you might be a very good economist, but your PR skills are certainly lacking.

And no im not harashing you or blaming you. Each and everyone off us have different quality’s but I do urge you to see that and let these kind off communications done by the professionals you have in house.

Part off my anger is also that in the economic system, the art off flipping is protected and preserved. It is extremely lucrative to ‘work’ the market. In essence I don’t have an issue with it as long as the people bringing in the money for those flippers are protected as well.

- starts singing-
Arise, the farmers of all nations!
Arise, oppressed of Tyria!
For justice thunders condemnation:
A better Tyria’s in birth!
It is time to win emancipation,
Arise, you slaves, no more in thrall!
The Tyria will rise on new foundations:
We, who were nothing, shall be all!
Forward, brothers and sisters,
And the last fight let us face;
The Internationale
Unites the fives of race!
Forward, brothers and sisters,
And the last fight let us face;
The Internationale
Unites the fives of race!

Another nerf to farming

Still 0 actions against TP flipping….

Talking about in game skill.

Astralporing.1957:

Yeah, because running the train hour after hour obviously requires zero time investment[/sarcasm]

It basically doesn’t. At least compared to other methods of getting stuff, which require not only the time to do them but also the time to get groups, set things up, travel to specific locations, coordinate event timing, etc.

If I’m working and want to take a 20 minute break, I can log on, hit a champ train, get a pile of stuff and then log off again. It’s quick, easy and effortless.

Why should something that is simple, fast and has no risk provide top-notch rewards?

Qaelyn.7612:

Why should something that is simple, fast and has no risk provide top-notch rewards?

Because a game should be fun and not actually work ?

I know that concept is hard to get for some.

The concept that is hard to get is that it’s somehow ‘fun’ to run in circles killing the same 5 mobs over and over again for hours. I don’t run into many people who actually do consider this ‘fun’, they mostly do it to get ‘stuff’. If there’s any ‘fun’ aspect to it, it’s the goofing around in chat, which people do BECAUSE it’s so boring.

Champions should be difficult fights undertaken occasionally as events, not something people farm hundreds of times a day for easy rewards. The job of game developers is to balance effort and reward to encourage a variety of activities, not make some things so easy and lucrative that large numbers of people see no point doing anything else.

Qaelyn.7612:

The concept that is hard to get is that it’s somehow ‘fun’ to run in circles killing the same 5 mobs over and over again for hours. I don’t run into many people who actually do consider this ‘fun’, they mostly do it to get ‘stuff’.

If it is so much more fun to run Dungeons, than maybe the people would do that, since you can make even more money there.

The thing is, people are different and whats fun for you might be unfunny for others and vice versa.

Personally i’m also not a big fan of doing champs longer than maybe 2-3 rounds, and i hate dungeons … but why should i cry for nerfs all the time just because i personally prefer other playstyles ?

Yeah .. i hate dungeons .. rewards should be no better than 1,5s and 250 karma .. the same you get for doing a DE for 15 minutes ?

Just get used to it, no matter how we make money in game, pretty sure unless Anet is gonna find a way to make money off it they will nerf it, so get used to that concept or start looking for your next game.

Every game developer has a vision of how they want the game to work. Part of that is balancing activities to encourage behavior they believe helps the game, and discourage behavior they feel is not what they want to see. I have a pretty strong feeling that they never put champions into the game with the idea of them being used in this manner, and so they are (very slightly) discouraging it.

If other areas of the game don’t provide good enough benefits then they should be increased for the same reason.

As a relatively new player, I can assure you that it’s a major turn-off to step into Queensdale and see a huge glob of high-level players obliterating so-called ‘champions’ in 10 seconds and constantly bickering with each other over what order the ‘champions’ should be obliterated. My first thought when I saw it was: ‘Is there any point even playing this game if this is what people do at cap?’ If I ran a game, that’s not the face I’d want to put forward to new players.

Be glad I don’t run this game, because I’d put a fractional multiplier every time the same champion is killed within a 24 hour period. Something like: you get full rewards the first time, then 80%, 60%, 40%, 20% and 0 after that until the next day.

Qaelyn.7612:

Every game developer has a vision of how they want the game to work. Part of that is balancing activities to encourage behavior they believe helps the game, and discourage behavior they feel is not what they want to see. I have a pretty strong feeling that they never put champions into the game with the idea of them being used in this manner, and so they are (very slightly) discouraging it.

If other areas of the game don’t provide good enough benefits then they should be increased for the same reason.

As a relatively new player, I can assure you that it’s a major turn-off to step into Queensdale and see a huge glob of high-level players obliterating so-called ‘champions’ in 10 seconds and constantly bickering with each other over what order the ‘champions’ should be obliterated. My first thought when I saw it was: ‘Is there any point even playing this game if this is what people do at cap?’ If I ran a game, that’s not the face I’d want to put forward to new players.

Be glad I don’t run this game, because I’d put a fractional multiplier every time the same champion is killed within a 24 hour period. Something like: you get full rewards the first time, then 80%, 60%, 40%, 20% and 0 after that until the next day.

No, DO blame the game. Time gating and grind is created by the developers. I would personally LOVE to feel rewarded for doing more stuff like dynamic events or WvW or whatever. But that doesn’t happen. That is not my fault. Nobody gets anything “worth” having in this game without grind bub.

Qaelyn.7612:

The concept that is hard to get is that it’s somehow ‘fun’ to run in circles killing the same 5 mobs over and over again for hours. I don’t run into many people who actually do consider this ‘fun’, they mostly do it to get ‘stuff’.

I think it’s fun, plus I get stuff. I’m killing a huge troll or whatever with a fireball in the middle of a crack in the middle of mountains in a frozen tundra, yeah of course that’s fun.

Overall I think it’s unfair of any specific person to determine what is FUN. Just because I don’t like PvP doesn’t give me the right to tell the developers to remove it from the game. We all enjoy different aspects of the game. Some people have never stepped foot in PvE, they are WvW players exclusively. Maybe we should cater to them and nerf or get rid of everything else?? Stop telling me how YOU think I SHOULD have FUN. I can determine that on my own, thank you.

Except nobody is telling you anything about what you should or shouldn’t find fun. The developers are deciding what item/coin rewards they want to give for different activities, and they have every right do that. It’s their game.

Again, I don’t think this is about fun as much as it is about hoarding wealth and items. On my server there are people who hang around role-playing, sending cute and interesting emotes to each other. Their financial reward for this is nothing, so they really are doing it for fun. There are other people who take time to help newbies with advice and ideas, again, for its own reward rather than what they’ll ‘get’ out of it.

Anyone who really enjoys champ farming will still enjoy it even if they get a few silvers less. Anyone who says it’s less fun now probably wasn’t really doing it to have fun at all. The argument is self defeating.

Qaelyn.7612:

Anyone who really enjoys champ farming will still enjoy it even if they get a few silvers less. Anyone who says it’s less fun now probably wasn’t really doing it to have fun at all. The argument is self defeating.

You’re absolutely right, it’s still just as fun as it was prior.

Honestly I’m not seeing much of a drop anyhow. I opened around 40 boxes last night and most of them had 6+s, only a few of them had between 3 and 6 and even fewer had 0-3.

Why the heck would players hoard their champ bags? Christmas? Karma I understand since guilds and what not wait until they fired up a big bonus and then open them but bags?

And that’s probably the same thought process that went through ANet’s mind.

Behellagh.1468:

Why the heck would players hoard their champ bags? Christmas? Karma I understand since guilds and what not wait until they fired up a big bonus and then open them but bags?

And that’s probably the same thought process that went through ANet’s mind.

To explain this. There are several kinds off bags but a limited amount. when farming all other drops are almost all blues, greens and mats. so those are salvaged and sent to the bank with the speedbutton. That means you can park a character at the train without having to leave till you have a stack off bags.

The other reason is that people want to keep track off the drops and want to open a lot at the same time to see how much money they had before and after.

GW2 isn’t supposed to be about grinding or farming, so this change is a positive step to help move away from that.

EnemyCrusher.7324:

GW2 isn’t supposed to be about grinding or farming, so this change is a positive step to help move away from that.

What game have you been playing?

EnemyCrusher.7324:

GW2 isn’t supposed to be about grinding or farming, so this change is a positive step to help move away from that.

Have you been under a rock this last year? GW2 is most definitely about grinding or farming and RNG.

Behellagh.1468:

Why the heck would players hoard their champ bags? Christmas? Karma I understand since guilds and what not wait until they fired up a big bonus and then open them but bags?

And that’s probably the same thought process that went through ANet’s mind.

Champ boxes have T7 mats in them, there are T7 mats that have not been released yet for ascended armor. They are hoarding them in hope that the champ boxes get upgraded to hold the unreleased T7 mats when ascended armor is released.

EnemyCrusher.7324:

GW2 isn’t supposed to be about grinding or farming, so this change is a positive step to help move away from that.

Most of the living story has been about farming so I’m going to have to go ahead and disagree.

BuD.7851:

Behellagh.1468:

Why the heck would players hoard their champ bags? Christmas? Karma I understand since guilds and what not wait until they fired up a big bonus and then open them but bags?

And that’s probably the same thought process that went through ANet’s mind.

Champ boxes have T7 mats in them, there are T7 mats that have not been released yet for ascended armor. They are hoarding them in hope that the champ boxes get upgraded to hold the unreleased T7 mats when ascended armor is released.

Hmm, I suppose we shouldn’t assume they won’t release a bunch of different T7 mats for armor…

So instead of buffing other methods of gold acquisition, they nerfed one of the viable options.

Great, back to TP flipping cause Anet doesn’t understand how proper rewards should be rewarded.

EnemyCrusher.7324:

GW2 isn’t supposed to be about grinding or farming, so this change is a positive step to help move away from that.

You must be new, you find out why its Grind Wars 2 after a bit longer.

Grinding is self-imposed. That’s true in all MMOs and especially true in this one, from what I’ve been able to tell so far. I was actually shocked at how small the difference is in stats between super-expensive and very affordable items.

I think they should nerf champ loot again to not drop champ loot from bosses if you didnt do at least 10-20% damage to it (open world only, dungeon stay as is)

Malediktus.9250:

I think they should nerf champ loot again to not drop champ loot from bosses if you didnt do at least 10-20% damage to it (open world only, dungeon stay as is)

I think they should nerf dungeon loot ‘cuz I don’t do dungeons.

Malediktus.9250:

I think they should nerf champ loot again to not drop champ loot from bosses if you didnt do at least 10-20% damage to it (open world only, dungeon stay as is)

Would force people to play a specific build and participate at a specific level.

I don’t mind that on one hand, zerg would be smaller and some areas might be not as crowded anymore. However I can see how that would effect lower levels or people that do not run a zerk build in a negative way and then those people start complaining. However if those changes would be made, I think it would be fair to adjust dungeons as well.

You can’t make everybody happy unfortunately.

dungeons are 5man only anyway, so the 20% treshold would only affect people with support or pvt builds

Qaelyn.7612:

Grinding is self-imposed. That’s true in all MMOs and especially true in this one, from what I’ve been able to tell so far. I was actually shocked at how small the difference is in stats between super-expensive and very affordable items.

Don’t dare try to inject logic into this “discussion”. Anet is out to get each and every one of us, if it’s the last thing they do.

I just wish we had an option to stop playing this terrible, awful game, and go play those other games that are so much less grind orientated and all around perfect …..

Farming for money is not a good thing. Farming for a particular item is fine, ala GW1 where if you wanted a Voltaic Spear, you farmed for it, and I received more than 24 of them for my work.
In GW2 you have to farm to afford to buy simple materials, because they have nerfed areas to farm materials into the ground, and it is now easier to farm the cash to simply buy them. It takes much less time to farm the cash than it takes to farm the items.
This is where the game has ceded control to the bots, and it has completely changed the game. Any place there were bots, they nerfed the entire thing, even for the casual player. These changes melded nicely with the cash Shop to enhance the income generated for the company. Simple as that.
I wish the original incarnation for the game had been retained. That said, I still enjoy the comraderie with my guild mates, and that will keep me here, hopefully until they can find a way to restore the original vision without ceding control to the bots and the cash shop.

ozmaniandevil.6805:

Malediktus.9250:

I think they should nerf champ loot again to not drop champ loot from bosses if you didnt do at least 10-20% damage to it (open world only, dungeon stay as is)

I think they should nerf dungeon loot ‘cuz I don’t do dungeons.

It’s not about you and what you do or don’t do. I know, it’s hard to believe.

Zerole.7306:

Qaelyn.7612:

Grinding is self-imposed. That’s true in all MMOs and especially true in this one, from what I’ve been able to tell so far. I was actually shocked at how small the difference is in stats between super-expensive and very affordable items.

Don’t dare try to inject logic into this “discussion”. Anet is out to get each and every one of us, if it’s the last thing they do.

I just wish we had an option to stop playing this terrible, awful game, and go play those other games that are so much less grind orientated and all around perfect …..

LOVE! Quoted for truth, and to say that you win all my daily internets.

John Smith.4610:

Changes to the game’s economic systems are often made for various and complex reasons. It’s not so simple as to say “we did A due to B”. What you’re asking for would be very hard to do, though we do encourage discussion over on the BLTC forum area.

So put an explanation on the forums, in this thread. Anet is meant to be on this collaborative development kick, which shouldn’t just pertain to the specific threads but with all interaction. So try and make us understand, especially with bloodstone dust when at the same time you introduce new recipes requiring large amounts of bloodstone dust.

EnemyCrusher.7324:

GW2 isn’t supposed to be about grinding or farming, so this change is a positive step to help move away from that.

This change does not remove the need for grinding at farming. At best it can incentivize people to look for a new place for it.

Malediktus.9250:

dungeons are 5man only anyway, so the 20% treshold would only affect people with support or pvt builds

Nope, 20% threshold on 5 man team would mean, that the first zerker to get to the boss would get drops, and the rest would get nothing.

I can just picture Darth Vader looking at the ANET offices saying “The NERF is strong with this one!”

Just like to make a point about loot.

In the recent feedback threads on the general discussion forum, WvW and PvP forums, about 80-90% of players listed LACK OF REWARDS, as a MAJOR problem with GW2.

Anets response? NERF rewards even more…

They ask for feedback and then ignore it all.

Its no wonder the forums get toxic…those feedback threads are just PR, looks like they have no intention of listening.

Rewards are more than generous for the difficulty of this game. Even tequatl is easy.

Malediktus.9250:

Rewards are more than generous for the difficulty of this game. Even tequatl is easy.

So all those thousands of players who say rewards are rubbish in GW2 are wrong and your right?

10,000’s of players have left ages ago because of the lousy reward system and constant NERFING of anything that gives a half decent reward.

Give me some examples of drops you have had in the last month that got you excited?