Guild Wars 2

clay.7849:

What many argue should happen (and what GW1 did quite well) is to make content more challenging without the need for gear to increase. This not only allows you to avoid the common problems with power creep, but also to create content that new players can access so they don’t get discouraged and quit.

What are talking about!

Let’s take Domain of Anguish – great example of “content more challenging without the need for gear to increase”.

It was so HARD that 90% of players DIDN’T EVER finished it! And the rest just used EXPLOITS! There was no fun gameplay there. And what’s even worse, most of the teams consisted of 2 monks 5 ele and 1 w (because that was the only combination that let you use the AI exploits). So that also didn’t help most of the people to enjoy it.

This is how good and rewarding the Gw1 content was.

Astralporing.1957:

Shootsfoot.9276:

See, here’s the issue…you’re taking your opinion of what makes the game great and applying it to everybody when it’s just not possible to do so. If what you are saying really was the hooking part of the game, then after 4 years (arbitrary number) I wouldn’t be logging into an essentially empty Lion’s Arch in GW. The 6 million who bought the game would still be there.

There were still lot of people playing at the time of Winds of change. People left only after it became clear that due to GW2 there will be no more support for GW1 anymore.
The game to live does have to change – new expansions and content are necessary. Balance tweaks are (unfortunately) also necessary. As long as GW received those, no other form of “progress” was needed. Without continued support, it is as good as dead (though the dying stage migh last for some time).
It wasn’t lack of gear treadmill that killed GW1, but it’s abandonment by Anet.

Like Clay stated, the only real thing that kept GW going was its PvP.

And its PvP is much better than GW2’s PvP.

I think one of the biggest misses by Anet in this game was not keeping PvP skills and PvE skills separate. Much easier to balance that way.

At any rate, I love this game, it’s only 6 months old and I hope to see improvements every month.

@HiddenNick

One instance of failed design does not an entire game make. Sorry, but just because ANet made some mistakes with GW1 doesn’t mean that those mistakes defined the game.

@Zenith

I 100% agree with you. I played GW1 PvP almost exclusively. The fact that it was based on skill, not gear, was one of many reasons why it was so good.

Shootsfoot.9276:

Astralporing.1957:

Shootsfoot.9276:

See, here’s the issue…you’re taking your opinion of what makes the game great and applying it to everybody when it’s just not possible to do so. If what you are saying really was the hooking part of the game, then after 4 years (arbitrary number) I wouldn’t be logging into an essentially empty Lion’s Arch in GW. The 6 million who bought the game would still be there.

There were still lot of people playing at the time of Winds of change. People left only after it became clear that due to GW2 there will be no more support for GW1 anymore.
The game to live does have to change – new expansions and content are necessary. Balance tweaks are (unfortunately) also necessary. As long as GW received those, no other form of “progress” was needed. Without continued support, it is as good as dead (though the dying stage migh last for some time).
It wasn’t lack of gear treadmill that killed GW1, but it’s abandonment by Anet.

Like Clay stated, the only real thing that kept GW going was its PvP.

And its PvP is much better than GW2’s PvP.

I think one of the biggest misses by Anet in this game was not keeping PvP skills and PvE skills separate. Much easier to balance that way.

At any rate, I love this game, it’s only 6 months old and I hope to see improvements every month.

I have realized that while no game has held my attention like GW1 has, GW2 is still my second favorite MMO. Although, my pace of play has slowed dramatically due to job & family.

I want GW2 to do well. I think that there is still a ton of potential for the game. What I don’t want to see is that it falls to the same traps other games have fallen to. Vertical gear progression for the sake of vertical gear progression is one of the things I do not want to see, not because I think it is bad, but because logically it doesn’t enhance the game.

clay.7849:

@Shootsfoot

I’m not trying to take what made a game great for me. Personally, all I really cared about in GW1 was the PvP. GW1 was successful because of those things, not because I liked them. It’s because those are the things that game did well.

But, if you look at the whole argument logically, unless the gear itself provides more complexity to the game or something that makes the gameplay better, which often times it does not, then you are simply adding rewards for the sake of adding rewards – you’re not actually making the game better.

No, I agree with that. Blizzard did a couple things wrong, and they have begun to try to fix them but it was too late for me. Number bloat was the main thing. The exponential growth of HP and DPS and stats were way, way too steep and they now have numbers that are ridiculous. My paladin has more HP than some bosses do.

The other thing was content was way too gated. What they did with that was introduce raidfinder along with getting gear via dailies.

Personally, and I know people disagree with me, but I think power creep is a good thing. It adds to content and keeps things fresh and interesting. Even if I have an exotic greatsword, after two years of staring at it, I’m going to want something else, eventually.

I’m having a hard time explaining how I want vertical progression, but fun and accessible vertical progression without it really being vertical progression.

clay.7849:

This is where we differ. WoW was a phenomenon that can’t be replicated, at least not in their style. I know you think GW2 isn’t a lot like WoW, but underneath the hood, it is. They are very very similar, even though GW2 is a great game and does do some things different.

Now, it is my personal opinion, as a marketing professional, that the best ROI is usually through appealing to a niche crowd. You can disagree all you want, but the fact is that there have been huge budgets for huge games that haven’t come close to taking down WoW.

In fact, the only two games of the last 10 years that could come close to being called successes (other than WoW) are EVE and GW1. GW2 may be a success, but with 6 months in, we can’t really make any concrete determinations thus far.

Basically, I think it is naive to think that in order to beat WoW you need to join WoW. I think, in order to beat WoW you need to be innovative and new. GW2 may be a step in the right direction, but I don’t think it is going to be the WoW killer you think it could be.

Last, I think that vertical gear progression is a lazy way to add to a game’s longevity – and it isn’t going to help to make a game that beats WoW. The game that beats WoW is going to be a game that has better content, not better rewards.

It doesn’t matter if WoW can or can’t be repeated. Guild Wars 2 isn’t like WoW in a a LOT of significant ways. You can’t just say a bit of vertical progression will make Guild Wars 2 like WoW. There are a ton of substantial differences. Having played WoW (and disliked it) I can tell you these games are very different.

Just not having a trinity makes a world of difference. Not gating content. No tagging mobs, individual resource nodes, no standard quests…there really is a world of difference. Limited skill selection bound to your weapon, active dodge, I could go on all day. Hell there aren’t even factions and you’re not farming faction rep. It’s just different.

But as I said, it’s not just WoW. It’s WoW and all the games that came after WoW. You played Guild Wars 1 and avoided it. I’ve played Aion, WoW, Rift, Lotro, Perfect World, DDO, AoC and a bunch of others. The problem is ALL those games trained people to think in terms of vertical progression, not one or two. Every single one of them.

People coming from those games, by and large, want to chase a carrot to some degree. Not all, but most of them. Should Anet close the door to every single person coming from those games that didn’t like Guild Wars 1? I don’t think so.

Anet made a compromise. It’s a form of weaning people off that gear based type of game. Some people are so stuck on the gear thing, they think the stats make that much of a difference. Those people we’re going to lose. But some will stay.

What you can’t do is ignore the bulk of potential players, just because Guild Wars 1 players won’t adapt. It really is that simple. If I were Anet, I’d rather lose some of the Guild Wars 1 players than the bulk of the people coming from other games.

MMOs are big business. Anet has to support a development team of 270 people, and that’s a lot of dosh. They won’t make it with just Guild Wars 1 players, no matter how many copies it sold.

To put it in perspective, Guild Wars sold 7 million copies of 7 years. Diable 3 sold that in the first week. Guild Wars 2 sold much much faster than Guild Wars 1, but people who bought it weren’t just Guild Wars 1 players.

Anet is going to lose a percentage of people on the edges…the die hard grinders and the die hard horizontal progressionists. But they’ll keep most of the people in the middle.

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

This is where we differ. WoW was a phenomenon that can’t be replicated, at least not in their style. I know you think GW2 isn’t a lot like WoW, but underneath the hood, it is. They are very very similar, even though GW2 is a great game and does do some things different.

Now, it is my personal opinion, as a marketing professional, that the best ROI is usually through appealing to a niche crowd. You can disagree all you want, but the fact is that there have been huge budgets for huge games that haven’t come close to taking down WoW.

In fact, the only two games of the last 10 years that could come close to being called successes (other than WoW) are EVE and GW1. GW2 may be a success, but with 6 months in, we can’t really make any concrete determinations thus far.

Basically, I think it is naive to think that in order to beat WoW you need to join WoW. I think, in order to beat WoW you need to be innovative and new. GW2 may be a step in the right direction, but I don’t think it is going to be the WoW killer you think it could be.

Last, I think that vertical gear progression is a lazy way to add to a game’s longevity – and it isn’t going to help to make a game that beats WoW. The game that beats WoW is going to be a game that has better content, not better rewards.

It doesn’t matter if WoW can or can’t be repeated. Guild Wars 2 isn’t like WoW in a a LOT of significant ways. You can’t just say a bit of vertical progression will make Guild Wars 2 like WoW. There are a ton of substantial differences. Having played WoW (and disliked it) I can tell you these games are very different.

Just not having a trinity makes a world of difference. Not gating content. No tagging mobs, individual resource nodes, no standard quests…there really is a world of difference. Limited skill selection bound to your weapon, active dodge, I could go on all day. Hell there aren’t even factions and you’re not farming faction rep. It’s just different.

But as I said, it’s not just WoW. It’s WoW and all the games that came after WoW. You played Guild Wars 1 and avoided it. I’ve played Aion, WoW, Rift, Lotro, Perfect World, DDO, AoC and a bunch of others. The problem is ALL those games trained people to think in terms of vertical progression, not one or two. Every single one of them.

People coming from those games, by and large, want to chase a carrot to some degree. Not all, but most of them. Should Anet close the door to every single person coming from those games that didn’t like Guild Wars 1? I don’t think so.

Anet made a compromise. It’s a form of weaning people off that gear based type of game. Some people are so stuck on the gear thing, they think the stats make that much of a difference. Those people we’re going to lose. But some will stay.

What you can’t do is ignore the bulk of potential players, just because Guild Wars 1 players won’t adapt. It really is that simple. If I were Anet, I’d rather lose some of the Guild Wars 1 players than the bulk of the people coming from other games.

MMOs are big business. Anet has to support a development team of 270 people, and that’s a lot of dosh. They won’t make it with just Guild Wars 1 players, no matter how many copies it sold.

To put it in perspective, Guild Wars sold 7 million copies of 7 years. Diable 3 sold that in the first week. Guild Wars 2 sold much much faster than Guild Wars 1, but people who bought it weren’t just Guild Wars 1 players.

Anet is going to lose a percentage of people on the edges…the die hard grinders and the die hard horizontal progressionists. But they’ll keep most of the people in the middle.

You are making a lot of assumptions here to make your point.

The game will settle in over time, I’m sure of it.

They will find a happy medium which will P.O. the outside fringes of the bell curve but they will have to either learn to like it or find a different game.

Blizzard is looking at it from the other end…they started the game out for hard core gamers and now they are seeing the untapped market of the so-called “casual gamers” and are moving the game in that direction.

People don’t like it there, either, but like I said, they either deal with it or leave.

Pretty simple.

Shootsfoot.9276:

Astralporing.1957:

Shootsfoot.9276:

See, here’s the issue…you’re taking your opinion of what makes the game great and applying it to everybody when it’s just not possible to do so. If what you are saying really was the hooking part of the game, then after 4 years (arbitrary number) I wouldn’t be logging into an essentially empty Lion’s Arch in GW. The 6 million who bought the game would still be there.

There were still lot of people playing at the time of Winds of change. People left only after it became clear that due to GW2 there will be no more support for GW1 anymore.
The game to live does have to change – new expansions and content are necessary. Balance tweaks are (unfortunately) also necessary. As long as GW received those, no other form of “progress” was needed. Without continued support, it is as good as dead (though the dying stage migh last for some time).
It wasn’t lack of gear treadmill that killed GW1, but it’s abandonment by Anet.

Like Clay stated, the only real thing that kept GW going was its PvP.

And its PvP is much better than GW2’s PvP.

I think one of the biggest misses by Anet in this game was not keeping PvP skills and PvE skills separate. Much easier to balance that way.

At any rate, I love this game, it’s only 6 months old and I hope to see improvements every month.

See I disagree with this. I don’t think PvP kept Guild Wars 1 going eventually. It sure started out that way, but in the end, where did Anet concentrate it’s efforts. Because by looking at that, you can be sure they knew where the sales and money were coming from.

Yes, the PvP scene was die hard, I get that. But as time went on and more and more PVe was added, PVe became extremely important to the success of the game. The costumes in the shops were certainly more bought by PVe’ers than PvPers. Start looking at how much time and energy Anet took, and you’ll see the shift from PvP to PVe. That’s why there’s this huge, huge world in Guild Wars 2, and PvP got off to such a slow start.

I believe the PvP will get a lot better, it’s only just starting. But PVe is what drove Guild Wars 1 for a whole lot of people.

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

@Shootsfoot

I’m not trying to take what made a game great for me. Personally, all I really cared about in GW1 was the PvP. GW1 was successful because of those things, not because I liked them. It’s because those are the things that game did well.

But, if you look at the whole argument logically, unless the gear itself provides more complexity to the game or something that makes the gameplay better, which often times it does not, then you are simply adding rewards for the sake of adding rewards – you’re not actually making the game better.

No, I agree with that. Blizzard did a couple things wrong, and they have begun to try to fix them but it was too late for me. Number bloat was the main thing. The exponential growth of HP and DPS and stats were way, way too steep and they now have numbers that are ridiculous. My paladin has more HP than some bosses do.

The other thing was content was way too gated. What they did with that was introduce raidfinder along with getting gear via dailies.

Personally, and I know people disagree with me, but I think power creep is a good thing. It adds to content and keeps things fresh and interesting. Even if I have an exotic greatsword, after two years of staring at it, I’m going to want something else, eventually.

I’m having a hard time explaining how I want vertical progression, but fun and accessible vertical progression without it really being vertical progression.

Don’t know if you’ve seen the video on power creep from extra credits so am linking it. A sense of progression and fresh new content are necessary in a game, but vertical progression (power creep) brings far too much extra baggage along for the ride. It is actually more a problem masquerading as a solution. A non-vertical sense of progression does take more effort to produce but is more rewarding long-term for both developers and players.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/power-creep

Raine.1394:

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

@Shootsfoot

I’m not trying to take what made a game great for me. Personally, all I really cared about in GW1 was the PvP. GW1 was successful because of those things, not because I liked them. It’s because those are the things that game did well.

But, if you look at the whole argument logically, unless the gear itself provides more complexity to the game or something that makes the gameplay better, which often times it does not, then you are simply adding rewards for the sake of adding rewards – you’re not actually making the game better.

No, I agree with that. Blizzard did a couple things wrong, and they have begun to try to fix them but it was too late for me. Number bloat was the main thing. The exponential growth of HP and DPS and stats were way, way too steep and they now have numbers that are ridiculous. My paladin has more HP than some bosses do.

The other thing was content was way too gated. What they did with that was introduce raidfinder along with getting gear via dailies.

Personally, and I know people disagree with me, but I think power creep is a good thing. It adds to content and keeps things fresh and interesting. Even if I have an exotic greatsword, after two years of staring at it, I’m going to want something else, eventually.

I’m having a hard time explaining how I want vertical progression, but fun and accessible vertical progression without it really being vertical progression.

Don’t know if you’ve seen the video on power creep from extra credits so am linking it. A sense of progression and fresh new content are necessary in a game, but vertical progression (power creep) brings far too much extra baggage along for the ride. It is actually more a problem masquerading as a solution. A non-vertical sense of progression does take more effort to produce but is more rewarding long-term for both developers and players.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/power-creep

Ok, they put into words what I’ve been trying to say. Thanks for that link.

The term “incomparables” is exactly what I meant when I said “vertical progression, but fun and accessible vertical progression without it really being vertical progression.”

Shootsfoot.9276:

Raine.1394:

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

@Shootsfoot

I’m not trying to take what made a game great for me. Personally, all I really cared about in GW1 was the PvP. GW1 was successful because of those things, not because I liked them. It’s because those are the things that game did well.

But, if you look at the whole argument logically, unless the gear itself provides more complexity to the game or something that makes the gameplay better, which often times it does not, then you are simply adding rewards for the sake of adding rewards – you’re not actually making the game better.

No, I agree with that. Blizzard did a couple things wrong, and they have begun to try to fix them but it was too late for me. Number bloat was the main thing. The exponential growth of HP and DPS and stats were way, way too steep and they now have numbers that are ridiculous. My paladin has more HP than some bosses do.

The other thing was content was way too gated. What they did with that was introduce raidfinder along with getting gear via dailies.

Personally, and I know people disagree with me, but I think power creep is a good thing. It adds to content and keeps things fresh and interesting. Even if I have an exotic greatsword, after two years of staring at it, I’m going to want something else, eventually.

I’m having a hard time explaining how I want vertical progression, but fun and accessible vertical progression without it really being vertical progression.

Don’t know if you’ve seen the video on power creep from extra credits so am linking it. A sense of progression and fresh new content are necessary in a game, but vertical progression (power creep) brings far too much extra baggage along for the ride. It is actually more a problem masquerading as a solution. A non-vertical sense of progression does take more effort to produce but is more rewarding long-term for both developers and players.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/power-creep

Ok, they put into words what I’ve been trying to say. Thanks for that link.

The term “incomparables” is exactly what I meant when I said “vertical progression, but fun and accessible vertical progression without it really being vertical progression.”

I honestly think this is what the devs in Guild Wars 2 are trying to accomplish. Keep it ticking over gradually, with different ways to get stuff, so that no one is massively disadvantaged, but you can keep working on your character, statwise. Nice a slow, a trickle at a time.

Vayne.8563:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Raine.1394:

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

@Shootsfoot

I’m not trying to take what made a game great for me. Personally, all I really cared about in GW1 was the PvP. GW1 was successful because of those things, not because I liked them. It’s because those are the things that game did well.

But, if you look at the whole argument logically, unless the gear itself provides more complexity to the game or something that makes the gameplay better, which often times it does not, then you are simply adding rewards for the sake of adding rewards – you’re not actually making the game better.

No, I agree with that. Blizzard did a couple things wrong, and they have begun to try to fix them but it was too late for me. Number bloat was the main thing. The exponential growth of HP and DPS and stats were way, way too steep and they now have numbers that are ridiculous. My paladin has more HP than some bosses do.

The other thing was content was way too gated. What they did with that was introduce raidfinder along with getting gear via dailies.

Personally, and I know people disagree with me, but I think power creep is a good thing. It adds to content and keeps things fresh and interesting. Even if I have an exotic greatsword, after two years of staring at it, I’m going to want something else, eventually.

I’m having a hard time explaining how I want vertical progression, but fun and accessible vertical progression without it really being vertical progression.

Don’t know if you’ve seen the video on power creep from extra credits so am linking it. A sense of progression and fresh new content are necessary in a game, but vertical progression (power creep) brings far too much extra baggage along for the ride. It is actually more a problem masquerading as a solution. A non-vertical sense of progression does take more effort to produce but is more rewarding long-term for both developers and players.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/power-creep

Ok, they put into words what I’ve been trying to say. Thanks for that link.

The term “incomparables” is exactly what I meant when I said “vertical progression, but fun and accessible vertical progression without it really being vertical progression.”

I honestly think this is what the devs in Guild Wars 2 are trying to accomplish. Keep it ticking over gradually, with different ways to get stuff, so that no one is massively disadvantaged, but you can keep working on your character, statwise. Nice a slow, a trickle at a time.

That’s not what the video is suggesting. What it’s suggesting is instead of working towards stat-boosting gear, how about working towards new talents or skills?

Not necessarily where GW1 went by killing named mobs, but as occasional drops, chest rewards, what have you.

Of course you’ll have the instant-gratification people complaining that they have to “grind” for them, but they aren’t necessary to complete the games. Just different ways to fight.

I’m honestly pretty bored with the fighting mechanics of the same ol’ 5 spells of the GS, for instance. It would be kind of fun to be able to turn the GS into a support or control weapon with some work.

Vayne.8563:

I honestly think this is what the devs in Guild Wars 2 are trying to accomplish. Keep it ticking over gradually, with different ways to get stuff, so that no one is massively disadvantaged, but you can keep working on your character, statwise. Nice a slow, a trickle at a time.

And BORING!

With a typical GT you have an illusion of getting meaningful rewards and that makes you excited when looting a body of dead boss.

And the current system is about getting very unexciting rewards and waiting until you have enough to get something you care about.

The bottom line is that the time between getting useful things is WAY TO LONG!

Berylex.4198:

I think that there are two problems. The first is that Anet tried to design the game so that it felt similar at all levels. Unfortunately, they didn’t realize that progression doesn’t feel the same as stasis for many. From 1-79, players experience level, gear, skill, and content progression. Once players explore the world, hit 80, and get exotics, the progression ends. In this sense, the game doesn’t feel “the same” as it did earlier. It feels done, which is why many just roll an alt at level 80.

The other problem is that traditional guilds and large-scale, challenging guild content do not exist in this game. This is probably because the game’s mechanics don’t permit interesting modes of coordination for large-scale fights. Instead, everyone is some slight variation of DPS, fighting alongside a bunch of people who might as well be NPCs. If this weren’t the case, it might be possible to revive the epicness and sense of challenge in other MMOs by introducing a series of progressively harder bosses, locked away in interesting locations, but not tied to gear progression at all. This would provide new experiences and interesting content to players at max level, rather than perpetual stasis. However, I suspect that the game’s mechanics won’t permit this in its current state.

Combined, these two things make the “end game” seem lackluster in GW2. It isn’t the same as levels 1-79. Rather, it is similar, but without new and interesting content to explore, new challenges to master, new skills to gain, or new gear to collect.

But working towards new skills as opposed to new gear as that video states would resolve those issues if done correctly.

I have never heard it said that split pvp/pve skills were a good idea. That was a measure of last resort to alleviate long term problems will skill balance. When they implemented it, there was already a sizeable pve and pvp playerbase that remained largely separated so anet were effectively developing 2 different games for 2 different audiences.

The original concept was that pvp was a part of guild wars pve endgame. You would travel across several contents in the story missions, picking up free skills along the way. In prophecies these skills were always the natural counters to the monsters you fought in those areas (i.e. you would get Shatter Hex and Shatter Enchantment in the northern shiverpeaks area which coincidentally is where you get tonnes of stone summit spamming Empathy and Crippling Anguish + using Channeling to fuel the energy cost).

The prophecies campaign pretty much teaches you how to counter skill. You get to the Crystal Desert and ascend which gives you access to the Tomb of Primeval Kings in which you go 8vs8 pvp in order to win the favour of the gods, which opened up the endgame pve dungeons – Underworld and Fissure of Woe.

PvP players spent a not insignificant amount of time in these dungeons because the exp rewards for the quest were huge and exp was needed to buy respec points for build testing and switching secondary professions.

But the pvp and pve communities in GW1 remained largely separated. Pvp can be hostile and confrontational and when you play team pvp, there is a mandatory level of structure and organisation required for success, which made it stressful having to deal with players who do not share similar goals as yourself. For various reasons alot of the pve/pvp synergy that was present in the beginning was removed over time because people didn’t want to be forced to play a part of the game they didn’t want to.

The incentives for playing are also different. For a pvp game to have any staying power whatsoever, the only reward needs to be the satisfaction of beating competent, intelligent opponents. The reward for pve is different but an emotional connection to the game world is important. Since pve is telegraphed, scripted and preprepared, once you experience all of the content in the game, there is nothing left to do unless anet adds more content. However, creating content that is repeatable and enjoyable multiple times takes an enormous amount of development time and resources.

Pvp on the other hand doesn’t need new content if the game has solid foundations. All you need are good opponents to adapt to. Adding content can be detrimental because it is a very delicately balanced system of skill interactions. You start adding new classes and skills after the fact, it has far reaching consequences for the existing pool of skills and cross class skill combinations.

So now you have a real problem trying to appease 2 separate audiences with 2 different ideas of what they want out of the game. Anet got alot of criticism from pvp players especially for some of the skill balancing decisions they made but ultimately, the job was impossible – the addition of so many new classes and skills, resulting in so many broken cross class skill combinations guaranteed it.

The root of the problem necessitating split pvp/pve skills goes all the way back to design and concept of the original skill system. It was originally not designed to have 4 additional classes and hundreds of new skills in the mixup. It was designed to have a friendly, very in depth intro to pvp but it was actually incredibly elitist. It had to be given the amount of time you could waste trying to get a game and then having one of your pro backliners leave to go eat. You could spend an eternity waiting and losing if you weren’t playing regularly with people that have a very good attitude towards competitive play/work ethic.

What was the system originally designed for? How much can you extend it to do something it was not designed for, before it becomes an idiosyncratic mess and you need scrap the system and start over?

In Guild Wars 2, history appears to be repeating itself, because we now have 3 separate games (pve, wvw and spvp) with 3 largely isolated communities. People in pve don’t want to have to wvw to get their map completion. People in wvw don’t want to spvp for dueling and small team fights. People in spvp want a level playing field which means no gear/ticket grinding and proper matchmaking/laddering and obs tools to watch and learn but thats completely useless to anyone who just wants to run dungeons, get rich, buy a glowing sword, get poor.

At every turn, someone, somewhere will complain about undue attention being given to the spvp community (all these pvp skill nerfs are ruining my class in PvE but 100b warriors are still trucking!), or to the pve community (why can’t I make as much money in WvW as I can running dungeons?). 3 separate games for 3 separate audiences.

Shootsfoot.9276:

But working towards new skills as opposed to new gear as that video states would resolve those issues if done correctly.

They’ve already done it in WvW. Do you like it?

At some point someone somewhere needs to stop screwing around with the gear and the skills and the stats. Just. Stop.

If you want to screw around with anything, try changing the goal rather than the tools that players use to achieve the goal.

If running CoF requires 4x 100b warriors to do it optimally because pve mobs stand still to get 100b’ed in the face? Give some of those little charr fodders a ranged interrupt that they will use on targets channelling DPS skills. No need to nerf pve warrior builds when they already have difficulty in spvp. No need to split skills.

In PvE if the goal is to get a shiny glowing sword and it costs a vast amount of time and resources to get it, then people are going to find a way to farm, in order to minimize the wait. If you nerf every conceivable farming method and time gate everything, people are just going to do it anyway but will just have to jump through more hoops.

HiddenNick.7206:

Shootsfoot.9276:

But working towards new skills as opposed to new gear as that video states would resolve those issues if done correctly.

They’ve already done it in WvW. Do you like it?

Done what?

I agree they took out challenging veritcal progression and replaced it with meaningless grind.

Ya theres no gear grind…. but you grind grind grind for everything else and to top it off there is no challenge lol.

At least in other games with lots of grind there was a new dungeon or raid that you had to over come in your grind, in GW2 its just okay this month your gonna grind this area…. same stuff over and over and over.

Besetment.9187:

The reward for pve is different but an emotional connection to the game world is important. Since pve is telegraphed, scripted and preprepared, once you experience all of the content in the game, there is nothing left to do unless anet adds more content. However, creating content that is repeatable and enjoyable multiple times takes an enormous amount of development time and resources.

And there is no guarantee that people will enjoy it. Like there are 8 Dungeons in the game right now and each of them has 4 paths. But most of the players are doing only the first path of Citadel of Flame.

Vayne.8563:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Raine.1394:

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

@Shootsfoot

I’m not trying to take what made a game great for me. Personally, all I really cared about in GW1 was the PvP. GW1 was successful because of those things, not because I liked them. It’s because those are the things that game did well.

But, if you look at the whole argument logically, unless the gear itself provides more complexity to the game or something that makes the gameplay better, which often times it does not, then you are simply adding rewards for the sake of adding rewards – you’re not actually making the game better.

No, I agree with that. Blizzard did a couple things wrong, and they have begun to try to fix them but it was too late for me. Number bloat was the main thing. The exponential growth of HP and DPS and stats were way, way too steep and they now have numbers that are ridiculous. My paladin has more HP than some bosses do.

The other thing was content was way too gated. What they did with that was introduce raidfinder along with getting gear via dailies.

Personally, and I know people disagree with me, but I think power creep is a good thing. It adds to content and keeps things fresh and interesting. Even if I have an exotic greatsword, after two years of staring at it, I’m going to want something else, eventually.

I’m having a hard time explaining how I want vertical progression, but fun and accessible vertical progression without it really being vertical progression.

Don’t know if you’ve seen the video on power creep from extra credits so am linking it. A sense of progression and fresh new content are necessary in a game, but vertical progression (power creep) brings far too much extra baggage along for the ride. It is actually more a problem masquerading as a solution. A non-vertical sense of progression does take more effort to produce but is more rewarding long-term for both developers and players.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/power-creep

Ok, they put into words what I’ve been trying to say. Thanks for that link.

The term “incomparables” is exactly what I meant when I said “vertical progression, but fun and accessible vertical progression without it really being vertical progression.”

I honestly think this is what the devs in Guild Wars 2 are trying to accomplish. Keep it ticking over gradually, with different ways to get stuff, so that no one is massively disadvantaged, but you can keep working on your character, statwise. Nice a slow, a trickle at a time.

I believe the devs implemented power creep in an attempt to satisfy bored players who claimed they had nothing to do at 80. This was the group who essentially bought a football and flooded the forums to complain that it was lousy for use in playing baseball. My take on it is that Anet got spooked and, rather than use it a a teachable moment, figured they needed to give them something to do that they could relate to.

Power creep is power creep whether it’s a trickle or straight from a fire hose. The key is that it has negative consequences when used as a game element to provide a sense of progression or motivation for continued play—in itself. Locating the grind in different areas of the game is certainly a good step in terms of it’s implementation. But, the problem is with the device itself, and for all the reasons the video suggests.

HiddenNick.7206:

Besetment.9187:

The reward for pve is different but an emotional connection to the game world is important. Since pve is telegraphed, scripted and preprepared, once you experience all of the content in the game, there is nothing left to do unless anet adds more content. However, creating content that is repeatable and enjoyable multiple times takes an enormous amount of development time and resources.

And there is no guarantee that people will enjoy it. Like there are 8 Dungeons in the game right now and each of them has 4 paths. But most of the players are doing only the first path of Citadel of Flame.

Because the dungeon design overall needs work.

Just running past scads of champion mobs hoping not to die because they take too long to kill isn’t fun. Getting essentially one-shot by a dog isn’t fun, let alone having 8 of them on you.

Make them somewhere between normal mobs and veterans and let us have a few AoE-fests. Or, decrease their numbers, make them a bit tougher and make them mini-bosses.

Namu.5712:

I agree they took out challenging veritcal progression and replaced it with meaningless grind.

Ya theres no gear grind…. but you grind grind grind for everything else and to top it off there is no challenge lol.

At least in other games with lots of grind there was a new dungeon or raid that you had to over come in your grind, in GW2 its just okay this month your gonna grind this area…. same stuff over and over and over.

let them continue erroring again and again, ignoring the mmo market…. gw3 announce might be near

P.S. Redundancy on a action game is the worse concept ever, that is what the future of this game looks like, i do recall when people left AB, and wvw will be no difference.

Thats a problem with MMO design full stop. They are designed to be played for thousands of hours so that the game generates more money over time via subscriptions and/or micro transactions.

How do you get someone to repeat the same thing for thousands of hours? You basically give them a long term goal with a shiny thing at the end of the tunnel and pad it out so it takes thousands of hours to get the shiny.

As long as thats how you get shinies – grinding the same 6 minute dungeon path for hours every day – then people are going to run CoF on their warriors. Thats the goal being really messed up.

If the monetary reward for doing all paths in all dungeons was any where near as significant as running CoF p1 till the end of time, then people do it for their shiny sword. You just watch them queue up for Arah exp path 4. Half of them will probably kill themselves before Lupicus but there it is…

Besetment.9187:

Thats a problem with MMO design full stop. They are designed to be played for thousands of hours so that the game generates more money over time via subscriptions and/or micro transactions.

How do you get someone to repeat the same thing for thousands of hours? You basically give them a long term goal with a shiny thing at the end of the tunnel and pad it out so it takes thousands of hours to get the shiny.

I think it would be interesting to look at successful game models that don’t offer those short term rewards and see why. Why are FPS games fun to play regardless of any real “vertical gear progression”. Why are single player games fun to play without much vertical gear progression? What about games like Magic: The Gathering, which GW1 has similarities with? What can developers learn from these games to make their game better and worth playing for hours?

Like, what if GW2, instead of Ascended Gear, offered gear that had new stat combinations? What if they had the regular carrion & berserker gear they had in the beginning, and instead of pumping up the stats, came out with ascended gear that had condition damage be the main stat on a piece of armor and precision and power be the other two stats? I don’t think there is armor in the game that exists like that. What if, instead of Ascended Gear, they offered a new stat, like +2% movement speed? Now, these are just examples, but I’m sure that the creative minds at ANet could have come up with something more interesting than a X% increase in stats across the board which is exactly the kind of thing that doesn’t make sense.

Of course, I still think that adding better content is the real answer. Like, why do we have dungeons with 4 linear paths? What happened to the dungeons from MUDs where you could just get lost? Why can’t we have that? I know you might say that it would all get documented in Wiki, but what if there was a way to randomize it? Those are the kinds of ideas that are going to sell. Doing the same gear progression is old news, regardless of whether it is hard wired in MMO players or not. It is still stagnant, and not just that, it’s just bad.

I don’t know where you keep getting this “no vertical gear progression” in FPS because every single day my 12 year old son reports what weapon he’s unlocked and what level he is in whatever FPS game he’s playing at the moment.

Kid knows more about military weapons than I do, for crying out loud.

Shootsfoot.9276:

I don’t know where you keep getting this “no vertical gear progression” in FPS because every single day my 12 year old son reports what weapon he’s unlocked with his “prestige” or whatever it is in whatever FPS game he’s playing at the moment.

Kid knows more about military weapons than I do, for crying out loud.

Unlocking new weapons is not vertical because they don’t do anything more or less better than old weapons. They are horizontal.

The UMP45 was one of the best guns in the game (CoD MW2) and you had it from day 1.

Same thing with perks, none are better than the other, they are just different.

You will find that this is the case by searching for the best gun in the game – it doesn’t exist. If you looked for the best trinkets in GW2, they would be ascended trinkets.

Vertical progression and horizontal progression are much different.

Not only that but, every time you reach top prestige, you get the option to go back to the beginning and unlock everything again, over and over. The only thing that happens is that you get a new shiny medal next to your name to show what level prestige you are – and it means nothing to the game. It doesn’t give you any extra rewards or perks.

I’ll have to take your word for it. Last FPS I played was Descent3.

I can’t stand them.

Shootsfoot.9276:

I’ll have to take your word for it. Last FPS I played was Descent3.

I can’t stand them.

I mostly play competitive online games, but seriously, google “best gun” for any big FPS and you will get answers all over the map.

As others have stated, dead horse, meet stick. According to the “only horizontal progression” folks this game has been dead and they have been quitting since November. Oddly enough, they’re are still here and so is the game. With concerns over the numbers people posted for sales….you may want to double check those. If WoW has had 11 million subscribers, that means 11 million copies sold of vanilla at least, since each subscription needs a unique key, which counts as a sale. A far cry from the 4.7 million listed. With one error in the listing, the rest of the numbers are suspect at best.

And GW1 was not an mmo, no matter how many times people keep saying it and wanting to believe it. This is an mmo and needs to address issues of an entrenched mmo player base, regardless of the evils of power creep or vertical progression. MMO’s need to keep people playing, so they can make money not only from gem store purchases but also to make the claim of a living world with people in it. More people will play if more people are online and so forth and so on. This isn’t just a coop rpg anymore and has to follow different rules. While WoW players won’t find WoW 2.0 here, neither will GW1 players find GW1 2.0 here. It’s past time for people to accept this fact and just get on with enjoying the parts of the game you do like.

Shootsfoot.9276:

HiddenNick.7206:

Shootsfoot.9276:

But working towards new skills as opposed to new gear as that video states would resolve those issues if done correctly.

They’ve already done it in WvW. Do you like it?

Done what?

Are you serious?

Ok then(answer using your words): when you play WvW you are constantly “working towards new skills as opposed to new gear as that video states”

Does that “resolve those issues” ??!!

P.S. In my opinion the whole idea is not even half as appealing as climbing the gear ladder (ie. finding epic gear and fighting epic bosses).

killcannon.2576:

And GW1 was not an mmo, no matter how many times people keep saying it and wanting to believe it. This is an mmo and needs to address issues of an entrenched mmo player base, regardless of the evils of power creep or vertical progression. MMO’s need to keep people playing, so they can make money not only from gem store purchases but also to make the claim of a living world with people in it. More people will play if more people are online and so forth and so on. This isn’t just a coop rpg anymore and has to follow different rules. While WoW players won’t find WoW 2.0 here, neither will GW1 players find GW1 2.0 here. It’s past time for people to accept this fact and just get on with enjoying the parts of the game you do like.

So, you’re saying that because GW1 wasn’t an MMO it didn’t compete with any other MMO’s for customers? Right….

I’m glad you think that in order to sell more games, you must follow the “rules”. Those rules worked out so well for every other game that has tried to follow them, eh?

What other multiplayer online games have been successful following those rules except WoW?

clay.7849:

killcannon.2576:

And GW1 was not an mmo, no matter how many times people keep saying it and wanting to believe it. This is an mmo and needs to address issues of an entrenched mmo player base, regardless of the evils of power creep or vertical progression. MMO’s need to keep people playing, so they can make money not only from gem store purchases but also to make the claim of a living world with people in it. More people will play if more people are online and so forth and so on. This isn’t just a coop rpg anymore and has to follow different rules. While WoW players won’t find WoW 2.0 here, neither will GW1 players find GW1 2.0 here. It’s past time for people to accept this fact and just get on with enjoying the parts of the game you do like.

So, you’re saying that because GW1 wasn’t an MMO it didn’t compete with any other MMO’s for customers? Right….

All games compete with each other for customers to some extent, saying so otherwise would be obtuse. For example, I also play rts, fps, and standard rpgs. These aren’t in the same genre but compete for my time. What I don’t do is compare what naturally fits into an rts or standard rpg to what mmo’s need to be effective. While there is some bleed from any genre to any other genre, there are some things that certain genres need, that others just do not. While an rts may benefit from a strong story and character progression, it isn’t what it needs to compete in the rts genre, which is strong unit ai, pathing, map support, fun and effective units, and possibly base building.

killcannon.2576:

clay.7849:

killcannon.2576:

And GW1 was not an mmo, no matter how many times people keep saying it and wanting to believe it. This is an mmo and needs to address issues of an entrenched mmo player base, regardless of the evils of power creep or vertical progression. MMO’s need to keep people playing, so they can make money not only from gem store purchases but also to make the claim of a living world with people in it. More people will play if more people are online and so forth and so on. This isn’t just a coop rpg anymore and has to follow different rules. While WoW players won’t find WoW 2.0 here, neither will GW1 players find GW1 2.0 here. It’s past time for people to accept this fact and just get on with enjoying the parts of the game you do like.

So, you’re saying that because GW1 wasn’t an MMO it didn’t compete with any other MMO’s for customers? Right….

All games compete with each other for customers to some extent, saying so otherwise would be obtuse. For example, I also play rts, fps, and standard rpgs. These aren’t in the same genre but compete for my time. What I don’t do is compare what naturally fits into an rts or standard rpg to what mmo’s need to be effective. While there is some bleed from any genre to any other genre, there are some things that certain genres need, that others just do not. While an rts may benefit from a strong story and character progression, it isn’t what it needs to compete in the rts genre, which is strong unit ai, pathing, map support, fun and effective units, and possibly base building.

Except you didn’t see CoD on the top of MMORPG.com for years like you did GW1.

CoD was not a direct competitor of WoW, GW1 was. Talk about being obtuse…

HiddenNick.7206:

Shootsfoot.9276:

HiddenNick.7206:

Shootsfoot.9276:

But working towards new skills as opposed to new gear as that video states would resolve those issues if done correctly.

They’ve already done it in WvW. Do you like it?

Done what?

Are you serious?

Ok then(answer using your words): when you play WvW you are constantly “working towards new skills as opposed to new gear as that video states”

Does that “resolve those issues” ??!!

P.S. In my opinion the whole idea is not even half as appealing as climbing the gear ladder (ie. finding epic gear and fighting epic bosses).

What skills have been added in WvW that isn’t in PvE?

By the way, you can spare me the snarky “are you serious” crap from now on. It does nothing for your argument.

clay.7849:

killcannon.2576:

And GW1 was not an mmo, no matter how many times people keep saying it and wanting to believe it. This is an mmo and needs to address issues of an entrenched mmo player base, regardless of the evils of power creep or vertical progression. MMO’s need to keep people playing, so they can make money not only from gem store purchases but also to make the claim of a living world with people in it. More people will play if more people are online and so forth and so on. This isn’t just a coop rpg anymore and has to follow different rules. While WoW players won’t find WoW 2.0 here, neither will GW1 players find GW1 2.0 here. It’s past time for people to accept this fact and just get on with enjoying the parts of the game you do like.

So, you’re saying that because GW1 wasn’t an MMO it didn’t compete with any other MMO’s for customers? Right….

I’m glad you think that in order to sell more games, you must follow the “rules”. Those rules worked out so well for every other game that has tried to follow them, eh?

What other multiplayer online games have been successful following those rules except WoW?

Guess you have to define “successful.”

clay.7849:

killcannon.2576:

And GW1 was not an mmo, no matter how many times people keep saying it and wanting to believe it. This is an mmo and needs to address issues of an entrenched mmo player base, regardless of the evils of power creep or vertical progression. MMO’s need to keep people playing, so they can make money not only from gem store purchases but also to make the claim of a living world with people in it. More people will play if more people are online and so forth and so on. This isn’t just a coop rpg anymore and has to follow different rules. While WoW players won’t find WoW 2.0 here, neither will GW1 players find GW1 2.0 here. It’s past time for people to accept this fact and just get on with enjoying the parts of the game you do like.

So, you’re saying that because GW1 wasn’t an MMO it didn’t compete with any other MMO’s for customers? Right….

I’m glad you think that in order to sell more games, you must follow the “rules”. Those rules worked out so well for every other game that has tried to follow them, eh?

What other multiplayer online games have been successful following those rules except WoW?

If you keep editing I can’t give a concise reply. Again (as I stated in my post), no one should expect this to be WoW 2.0. I actually think players from WoW want less of WoW in this game than you would assume. This game is a drastic change from mmo norms, but for some reason GW1 players either can’t or refuse to see it. It has become a template for newer mmo’s to come. ESO and NW are both using ideas pioneered in GW2 to break away from the pack.

clay.7849:

killcannon.2576:

clay.7849:

killcannon.2576:

And GW1 was not an mmo, no matter how many times people keep saying it and wanting to believe it. This is an mmo and needs to address issues of an entrenched mmo player base, regardless of the evils of power creep or vertical progression. MMO’s need to keep people playing, so they can make money not only from gem store purchases but also to make the claim of a living world with people in it. More people will play if more people are online and so forth and so on. This isn’t just a coop rpg anymore and has to follow different rules. While WoW players won’t find WoW 2.0 here, neither will GW1 players find GW1 2.0 here. It’s past time for people to accept this fact and just get on with enjoying the parts of the game you do like.

So, you’re saying that because GW1 wasn’t an MMO it didn’t compete with any other MMO’s for customers? Right….

All games compete with each other for customers to some extent, saying so otherwise would be obtuse. For example, I also play rts, fps, and standard rpgs. These aren’t in the same genre but compete for my time. What I don’t do is compare what naturally fits into an rts or standard rpg to what mmo’s need to be effective. While there is some bleed from any genre to any other genre, there are some things that certain genres need, that others just do not. While an rts may benefit from a strong story and character progression, it isn’t what it needs to compete in the rts genre, which is strong unit ai, pathing, map support, fun and effective units, and possibly base building.

Except you didn’t see CoD on the top of MMORPG.com for years like you did GW1.

CoD was not a direct competitor of WoW, GW1 was. Talk about being obtuse…

Gw was never a competitor to WoW, in mmo terms. It attracted a totally different player base than WoW did. There was some cross over of course, the same way most players who play mmorpg’s like standard rpgs. If you want to continue this line of response/query, please state why you believe GW1 was an mmo.

killcannon.2576:

clay.7849:

killcannon.2576:

And GW1 was not an mmo, no matter how many times people keep saying it and wanting to believe it. This is an mmo and needs to address issues of an entrenched mmo player base, regardless of the evils of power creep or vertical progression. MMO’s need to keep people playing, so they can make money not only from gem store purchases but also to make the claim of a living world with people in it. More people will play if more people are online and so forth and so on. This isn’t just a coop rpg anymore and has to follow different rules. While WoW players won’t find WoW 2.0 here, neither will GW1 players find GW1 2.0 here. It’s past time for people to accept this fact and just get on with enjoying the parts of the game you do like.

So, you’re saying that because GW1 wasn’t an MMO it didn’t compete with any other MMO’s for customers? Right….

I’m glad you think that in order to sell more games, you must follow the “rules”. Those rules worked out so well for every other game that has tried to follow them, eh?

What other multiplayer online games have been successful following those rules except WoW?

If you keep editing I can’t give a concise reply. Again (as I stated in my post), no one should expect this to be WoW 2.0. I actually think players from WoW want less of WoW in this game than you would assume. This game is a drastic change from mmo norms, but for some reason GW1 players either can’t or refuse to see it. It has become a template for newer mmo’s to come. ESO and NW are both using ideas pioneered in GW2 to break away from the pack.

Perhaps it is because GW1 players have a GW1 point of reference and WoW players have a WoW point of reference? I don’t like the ascended gear mess because it was rather dumb. But, at least it didn’t cause any content to get gated from players, so in that respect it isn’t all that bad.

I also agreed that GW2 is a stepping stone in the right direction for MMO’s in some regards.

What I don’t agree is that there is a need for vertical gear progression in a game because it simply doesn’t change anything about the game. The encounters are still the same, the combat is still the same, you just get to add an inch to your kitten. To me, that doesn’t make a game good. It would be better to add content that actually enhances the game play.

HiddenNick.7206:

clay.7849:

This is a great video someone showed me once about the difference between extrinsic and intrinsic rewards playing video games.

Author did a mistake there… In WoW your grinding not to just get the items but to get items powerful enough to overcome next challenge. What’s wrong with that?!

wait.. are you being sarcastic? like.. you really can’t see the problem of grinding for something so that you can unlock grinding for something? You can’t see what’s wrong with that concept, like you can’t grasp that?
With cosmetics I see the exact opposite of what you said. When I get a cosmetic item I am rewarded ever time I see it. I enjoy it simply being there, jsut like any piece of art. The fact that my character looks the way I want is more enjoyable than changing how high my stats are. With stats I only enjoy them when something that was IMPOSSIBLE becomes possible. And even then the reward of beating that something is only to open the gate to the next something that is impossible. There is no end to itself. With cosmetics the end is simply seeing & enjoying the art. Overcoming a challenge can also give a rewarding feeling but if it’s all based around your numbers being high enough, then you didn’t really overcome it did you? Your numbers did. It’s not much of a triumph.

killcannon.2576:

clay.7849:

killcannon.2576:

clay.7849:

killcannon.2576:

And GW1 was not an mmo, no matter how many times people keep saying it and wanting to believe it. This is an mmo and needs to address issues of an entrenched mmo player base, regardless of the evils of power creep or vertical progression. MMO’s need to keep people playing, so they can make money not only from gem store purchases but also to make the claim of a living world with people in it. More people will play if more people are online and so forth and so on. This isn’t just a coop rpg anymore and has to follow different rules. While WoW players won’t find WoW 2.0 here, neither will GW1 players find GW1 2.0 here. It’s past time for people to accept this fact and just get on with enjoying the parts of the game you do like.

So, you’re saying that because GW1 wasn’t an MMO it didn’t compete with any other MMO’s for customers? Right….

All games compete with each other for customers to some extent, saying so otherwise would be obtuse. For example, I also play rts, fps, and standard rpgs. These aren’t in the same genre but compete for my time. What I don’t do is compare what naturally fits into an rts or standard rpg to what mmo’s need to be effective. While there is some bleed from any genre to any other genre, there are some things that certain genres need, that others just do not. While an rts may benefit from a strong story and character progression, it isn’t what it needs to compete in the rts genre, which is strong unit ai, pathing, map support, fun and effective units, and possibly base building.

Except you didn’t see CoD on the top of MMORPG.com for years like you did GW1.

CoD was not a direct competitor of WoW, GW1 was. Talk about being obtuse…

Gw was never a competitor to WoW, in mmo terms. It attracted a totally different player base then WoW did. There was some cross over of course, the same way most players who play mmorpg’s like standard rpgs. If you want to continue this line of response/query, please state why you believe GW1 was an mmo.

I don’t think it was an MMO. Although, if we take the idea of an MMO, we have Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game. The existence of instanced vs. persistent areas doesn’t detract from that definition, nor does the requirement of partying or cooperative play. ANet gave the game the CORPG designation, everyone else accepted it as an MMORPG.

Again, that is really neither here nor there. GW1 directly competed with WoW more than any other game at the time, unless you can think of a different one it competed with. I would be open to changing my mind should you come up with something.

clay.7849:

killcannon.2576:

clay.7849:

killcannon.2576:

And GW1 was not an mmo, no matter how many times people keep saying it and wanting to believe it. This is an mmo and needs to address issues of an entrenched mmo player base, regardless of the evils of power creep or vertical progression. MMO’s need to keep people playing, so they can make money not only from gem store purchases but also to make the claim of a living world with people in it. More people will play if more people are online and so forth and so on. This isn’t just a coop rpg anymore and has to follow different rules. While WoW players won’t find WoW 2.0 here, neither will GW1 players find GW1 2.0 here. It’s past time for people to accept this fact and just get on with enjoying the parts of the game you do like.

So, you’re saying that because GW1 wasn’t an MMO it didn’t compete with any other MMO’s for customers? Right….

I’m glad you think that in order to sell more games, you must follow the “rules”. Those rules worked out so well for every other game that has tried to follow them, eh?

What other multiplayer online games have been successful following those rules except WoW?

If you keep editing I can’t give a concise reply. Again (as I stated in my post), no one should expect this to be WoW 2.0. I actually think players from WoW want less of WoW in this game than you would assume. This game is a drastic change from mmo norms, but for some reason GW1 players either can’t or refuse to see it. It has become a template for newer mmo’s to come. ESO and NW are both using ideas pioneered in GW2 to break away from the pack.

Perhaps it is because GW1 players have a GW1 point of reference and WoW players have a WoW point of reference? I don’t like the ascended gear mess because it was rather dumb. But, at least it didn’t cause any content to get gated from players, so in that respect it isn’t all that bad.

I also agreed that GW2 is a stepping stone in the right direction for MMO’s in some regards.

What I don’t agree is that there is a need for vertical gear progression in a game because it simply doesn’t change anything about the game. The encounters are still the same, the combat is still the same, you just get to add an inch to your kitten. To me, that doesn’t make a game good. It would be better to add content that actually enhances the game play.

You are correct it doesn’t change anything about the inherent game play. What progression does is give a reason for mmo players to play, the same way as adding jumping puzzles, story missions, cosmetic items, new dungeons, new places to explore gives all those other types of players places to play. MMo’s travel a broad avenue much more so than other game types, and must appeal to a broader audience. Gw2 in particular has chosen to do this as a prime focus. I have seen many things added to this game than just ascended gear which so many focus on and seem to be upset over, and I am sure I will see even more added as time progresses.

clay.7849:

killcannon.2576:

clay.7849:

killcannon.2576:

clay.7849:

killcannon.2576:

And GW1 was not an mmo, no matter how many times people keep saying it and wanting to believe it. This is an mmo and needs to address issues of an entrenched mmo player base, regardless of the evils of power creep or vertical progression. MMO’s need to keep people playing, so they can make money not only from gem store purchases but also to make the claim of a living world with people in it. More people will play if more people are online and so forth and so on. This isn’t just a coop rpg anymore and has to follow different rules. While WoW players won’t find WoW 2.0 here, neither will GW1 players find GW1 2.0 here. It’s past time for people to accept this fact and just get on with enjoying the parts of the game you do like.

So, you’re saying that because GW1 wasn’t an MMO it didn’t compete with any other MMO’s for customers? Right….

All games compete with each other for customers to some extent, saying so otherwise would be obtuse. For example, I also play rts, fps, and standard rpgs. These aren’t in the same genre but compete for my time. What I don’t do is compare what naturally fits into an rts or standard rpg to what mmo’s need to be effective. While there is some bleed from any genre to any other genre, there are some things that certain genres need, that others just do not. While an rts may benefit from a strong story and character progression, it isn’t what it needs to compete in the rts genre, which is strong unit ai, pathing, map support, fun and effective units, and possibly base building.

Except you didn’t see CoD on the top of MMORPG.com for years like you did GW1.

CoD was not a direct competitor of WoW, GW1 was. Talk about being obtuse…

Gw was never a competitor to WoW, in mmo terms. It attracted a totally different player base then WoW did. There was some cross over of course, the same way most players who play mmorpg’s like standard rpgs. If you want to continue this line of response/query, please state why you believe GW1 was an mmo.

I don’t think it was an MMO. Although, if we take the idea of an MMO, we have Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game. The existence of instanced vs. persistent areas doesn’t detract from that definition, nor does the requirement of partying or cooperative play. ANet gave the game the CORPG designation, everyone else accepted it as an MMORPG.

Again, that is really neither here nor there. GW1 directly competed with WoW more than any other game at the time, unless you can think of a different one it competed with. I would be open to changing my mind should you come up with something.

There really wasn’t any competition for GW1 at the time, it fulfilled a rpg players wet dream. It gave a rich, vibrant, world to explore with old friends and new. It had an effective and fun player hub in the lobbies that were cities. If it was in any genre I suppose it would be the same as Neverwinter Nights, and other coop rpgs that you could play with friends. Sadly that genre has died out in favor of MMO’s, but may be coming back in some small part in Neverwinter and perhaps some others.

killcannon.2576:

clay.7849:

killcannon.2576:

clay.7849:

killcannon.2576:

And GW1 was not an mmo, no matter how many times people keep saying it and wanting to believe it. This is an mmo and needs to address issues of an entrenched mmo player base, regardless of the evils of power creep or vertical progression. MMO’s need to keep people playing, so they can make money not only from gem store purchases but also to make the claim of a living world with people in it. More people will play if more people are online and so forth and so on. This isn’t just a coop rpg anymore and has to follow different rules. While WoW players won’t find WoW 2.0 here, neither will GW1 players find GW1 2.0 here. It’s past time for people to accept this fact and just get on with enjoying the parts of the game you do like.

So, you’re saying that because GW1 wasn’t an MMO it didn’t compete with any other MMO’s for customers? Right….

I’m glad you think that in order to sell more games, you must follow the “rules”. Those rules worked out so well for every other game that has tried to follow them, eh?

What other multiplayer online games have been successful following those rules except WoW?

If you keep editing I can’t give a concise reply. Again (as I stated in my post), no one should expect this to be WoW 2.0. I actually think players from WoW want less of WoW in this game than you would assume. This game is a drastic change from mmo norms, but for some reason GW1 players either can’t or refuse to see it. It has become a template for newer mmo’s to come. ESO and NW are both using ideas pioneered in GW2 to break away from the pack.

Perhaps it is because GW1 players have a GW1 point of reference and WoW players have a WoW point of reference? I don’t like the ascended gear mess because it was rather dumb. But, at least it didn’t cause any content to get gated from players, so in that respect it isn’t all that bad.

I also agreed that GW2 is a stepping stone in the right direction for MMO’s in some regards.

What I don’t agree is that there is a need for vertical gear progression in a game because it simply doesn’t change anything about the game. The encounters are still the same, the combat is still the same, you just get to add an inch to your kitten. To me, that doesn’t make a game good. It would be better to add content that actually enhances the game play.

You are correct it doesn’t change anything about the inherent game play. What progression does is give a reason for mmo players to play, the same way as adding jumping puzzles, story missions, cosmetic items, new dungeons, new places to explore gives all those other types of players places to play. MMo’s travel a broad avenue much more so than other game types, and must appeal to a broader audience. Gw2 in particular has chosen to do this as a prime focus. I have seen many things added to this game than just ascended gear which so many focus on and seem to be upset over, and I am sure I will see even more added as time progresses.

Don’t you think that people would be more apt to play a game where the game is actually good rather than for “vertical gear progression.”

That’s what I’m saying, single player RPG’s do this, online FPS games do this, M:TG does this… why are MMO’s so much different? I do agree that there are some people that will hate the idea and move on, but I also think that there are a lot of people that just want to play a good game. They don’t want to worry about whether they have a Righteous Greatsword of Justice with +1,000 Smiting Ability to beat the next boss. I think people would actually enjoy a game where the boss just provides a new challenge, the reward of overcoming the challenge, and some shinies that have nothing to do with vertical gear progression – which essentially causes power creep and gating.

Now, that is my opinion, yes. But, based on the fact that really MMO’s are one of the few games to introduce this kind of progression in to games, I think that it is at least plausible that my opinion could be correct. However, it could be that needing to be better than everyone else is inherent in the culture of MMO’s as it is equally part of our first world culture. Perhaps, the majority of people really do just want to have the bigger kitten and show it off with their Righteous Greatsword of Justice regardless of whether a game is good or not or whether it gates other players from playing.

If that is the case, then I weep for all of us, because it just amounts to selfishness.

killcannon.2576:

clay.7849:

killcannon.2576:

clay.7849:

killcannon.2576:

clay.7849:

killcannon.2576:

And GW1 was not an mmo, no matter how many times people keep saying it and wanting to believe it. This is an mmo and needs to address issues of an entrenched mmo player base, regardless of the evils of power creep or vertical progression. MMO’s need to keep people playing, so they can make money not only from gem store purchases but also to make the claim of a living world with people in it. More people will play if more people are online and so forth and so on. This isn’t just a coop rpg anymore and has to follow different rules. While WoW players won’t find WoW 2.0 here, neither will GW1 players find GW1 2.0 here. It’s past time for people to accept this fact and just get on with enjoying the parts of the game you do like.

So, you’re saying that because GW1 wasn’t an MMO it didn’t compete with any other MMO’s for customers? Right….

All games compete with each other for customers to some extent, saying so otherwise would be obtuse. For example, I also play rts, fps, and standard rpgs. These aren’t in the same genre but compete for my time. What I don’t do is compare what naturally fits into an rts or standard rpg to what mmo’s need to be effective. While there is some bleed from any genre to any other genre, there are some things that certain genres need, that others just do not. While an rts may benefit from a strong story and character progression, it isn’t what it needs to compete in the rts genre, which is strong unit ai, pathing, map support, fun and effective units, and possibly base building.

Except you didn’t see CoD on the top of MMORPG.com for years like you did GW1.

CoD was not a direct competitor of WoW, GW1 was. Talk about being obtuse…

Gw was never a competitor to WoW, in mmo terms. It attracted a totally different player base then WoW did. There was some cross over of course, the same way most players who play mmorpg’s like standard rpgs. If you want to continue this line of response/query, please state why you believe GW1 was an mmo.

I don’t think it was an MMO. Although, if we take the idea of an MMO, we have Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game. The existence of instanced vs. persistent areas doesn’t detract from that definition, nor does the requirement of partying or cooperative play. ANet gave the game the CORPG designation, everyone else accepted it as an MMORPG.

Again, that is really neither here nor there. GW1 directly competed with WoW more than any other game at the time, unless you can think of a different one it competed with. I would be open to changing my mind should you come up with something.

There really wasn’t any competition for GW1 at the time, it fulfilled a rpg players wet dream. It gave a rich, vibrant, world to explore with old friends and new. It had an effective and fun player hub in the lobbies that were cities. If it was in any genre I suppose it would be the same as Neverwinter Nights, and other coop rpgs that you could play with friends. Sadly that genre has died out in favor of MMO’s, but may be coming back in some small part in Neverwinter and perhaps some others.

And yet, instead of trying to continue to address that market, and cultivate that market, GW2 has decided to court the fickle MMO crowd which is a tough beast to tame and have never really given up their love for WoW.

Personally, I think it would have been more profitable to do the former, not because the the market is bigger (it isn’t) but because it would be easier to continue to attract and develop that market, rather than trying to face the behemoth that is WoW and their giant pools of money they make (but are extremely difficult to capitalize on if you’re not WoW).

Problem is “real” grinders finished their new FOTM gear grind within a week or two and were bored again. It always works this way. The people who want vertical progression and the chore of grinding/dungeoning for new, better gear will always exhaust the content faster than the game developers can dish it out. This leaves most everyone else (including me) flopping around in the dust trying to keep up when I know that even if I do manage to catch up, I will soon be left behind again the moment I take a day off.

I’ve been playing this game since before it was released (BWE’s). I still haven’t made a legendary weapon (work in progress), I still haven’t sPvPed (been meaning to do that eventually), and I still haven’t unlocked all of the achievements (getting a character registered into the Durmand Priory or Order of Whispers, and other smaller achievements to be found in the H menu). It’s not that I don’t sPvP or craft a legendary weapon because I don’t want to. I do want those things very much.

The problem lies in the fact that I have so much fun doing the other content, that I exhaust my time having fun with that which is already provided for me. I WvWvW my kitten off with my friends and guild. Shoot, I can spend hours in WvWvW and not get bored. I like to go hunting for various plants and do personal story quests. I like to dive off of large mountains and see if I can hit the small pool of water below, or die trying. I like to goof off and do fun things like kill dragons (not watch their spawn timers and plan out my entire day according to what is spawning where and when). I like to park my character in the beautifully designed game and just take in the scenery.

Logging on every day and doing the same thing strikes me personally as a monotonous chore. I have read many people’s posts saying they log on, do their daily, do their fractal runs and then log off. These are the type of people that strike me as needing something meaningful to do. These are the type of people that I think frankly, need a full time job, OR they have a full time job, and just enjoy this sort of thing. Different strokes for different folks, whatever floats your boat. For the majority though, that work 8-12 hours a day, sometimes more, just want something fun to do, because they get enough of the same ol’ same ol’ at work, which is why they generally dislike grinding for tiers and tiers of “stronger” gear. Which by the way, if the monsters scale as your armor scales, there is no progression. No point in getting stronger gear for monster that are now padded to withstand your “stronger” gear. That would be like your boss saying, “Hey, instead of paying you 8 quarters an hour, I am going to pay you 200 pennies an hour. Enjoy your raise!” You’re still getting 2 dollars an hour, but 200 is a much larger sounding number than 8, so at first your brain believes it is getting a raise, but after calculating out the math, you realize you have gone nowhere.

Your opinion isn’t incorrect. But I believe you don’t quite understand why they introduce power creep and vertical progression. It’s to keep people in the game, and it’s effective. Very Very Very effective. A quick, but maybe not totally appropriate analogy would be that you can treat infections with things other than antibiotics, but antibiotics work so well, so incredibly well, why would you. The thing with GW2 is that it uses antibiotics, plus homeopathy, plus spiritual healing, plus sacrificing to the old gods, plus a giant gorilla. But people are focusing on it using antibiotics, and think it somehow invalidates everything else.

Because in previous guildwars, armour is purely cosmetic.
Stats are standardize.

This was what most guildwars players were expecting when they got guildwars2, work on the cosmetics.

killcannon.2576:

Your opinion isn’t incorrect. But I believe you don’t quite understand why they introduce power creep and vertical progression. It’s to keep people in the game, and it’s effective. Very Very Very effective. A quick, but maybe not totally appropriate analogy would be that you can treat infections with things other than antibiotics, but antibiotics work so well, so incredibly well, why would you. The thing with GW2 is that it uses antibiotics, plus homeopathy, plus spiritual healing, plus sacrificing to the old gods, plus a giant gorilla. But people are focusing on it using antibiotics, and think it somehow invalidates everything else.

I agree it’s effective, but it’s mostly effective because it’s the easy way out, and people are lazy and because no one has made anything better.

When they do, it will sell.