Guild Wars 2

killcannon.2576:

Your opinion isn’t incorrect. But I believe you don’t quite understand why they introduce power creep and vertical progression. It’s to keep people in the game, and it’s effective. Very Very Very effective. A quick, but maybe not totally appropriate analogy would be that you can treat infections with things other than antibiotics, but antibiotics work so well, so incredibly well, why would you. The thing with GW2 is that it uses antibiotics, plus homeopathy, plus spiritual healing, plus sacrificing to the old gods, plus a giant gorilla. But people are focusing on it using antibiotics, and think it somehow invalidates everything else.

I expected that analogy to go off the rails, but that’s really just about accurate.

GW2 already offers essentially more than I ever imagined it would in terms of providing ways for you to keep yourself entertained. And I imagine the people having the most unbridled fun are those that do a mix of everything as it suits them rather than feeling like they need to do anything at all. The world of Tyria is essentially as close to a sandbox as a theme park MMO can get (my guildie calls it a “sandpark”).

For some people getting the absolute Best-in-slot gear is just not that interesting or important. In many other games this would be the difference between being able to access all of the content and not. In Guild Wars 2 it is nothing of the sort. Thus it is the kind of game for me; it can’t possibly be the kind of game for everyone.

Hawkian.6580:

killcannon.2576:

Your opinion isn’t incorrect. But I believe you don’t quite understand why they introduce power creep and vertical progression. It’s to keep people in the game, and it’s effective. Very Very Very effective. A quick, but maybe not totally appropriate analogy would be that you can treat infections with things other than antibiotics, but antibiotics work so well, so incredibly well, why would you. The thing with GW2 is that it uses antibiotics, plus homeopathy, plus spiritual healing, plus sacrificing to the old gods, plus a giant gorilla. But people are focusing on it using antibiotics, and think it somehow invalidates everything else.

I expected that analogy to go off the rails, but that’s really just about accurate.

GW2 already offers essentially more than I ever imagined it would in terms of providing ways for you to keep yourself entertained. And I imagine the people having the most unbridled fun are those that do a mix of everything as it suits them rather than feeling like they need to do anything at all. The world of Tyria is essentially as close to a sandbox as a theme park MMO can get (my guildie calls it a “sandpark”).

For some people getting the absolute Best-in-slot gear is just not that interesting or important. In many other games this would be the difference between being able to access all of the content and not. In Guild Wars 2 it is nothing of the sort. Thus it is the kind of game for me; it can’t possibly be the kind of game for everyone.

Now, if they can only add acupuncture, I mean good PvP, to the game, it would be nice.

I don’t disagree with everything you guys are saying. Remember, I was addressing the OP which was asking for more gear progression when I don’t think it is necessary and tried to state why. The ascended gear thing isn’t as bad as people make it out to be, I’ll give you that.

WoW pretty much died under its own weight. It’s one reason why WoW clones die so fast, and why GW2 has a chance not to. No one wants to play WoW that isn’t WoW, because the friends and guilds are the only thing that keeps it aloft, and why people always go back. It’s familiar. It’s nostalgic. It’s comfortable. These same reasons are why so many GW1 players are upset at GW2.

But you hit on an important part, companies need money to develop games, games have to make money. Gw1 developed the way it did partly because they didn’t have the funds to develop their vision of a true mmo. They have included so many things in GW2 from GW1 and only reluctantly added some small part of vertical progression to draw in more players and to (hopefully) teach these players there is more to an mmo than just vertical progression. This game has to do better than GW, has to attract a broader range of players.

Instead of belittling the vertical progression players just because, perhaps take some time to help show them what GW2 really has to offer, because they won’t look for it on their own, they don’t know how to. It’s been trained out of them for years upon years upon years. There’s a whole world out there and it’s up to GW players to show it off, instead of just complaining.

killcannon.2576:

WoW pretty much died under its own weight. It’s one reason why WoW clones die so fast, and why GW2 has a chance not to. No one wants to play WoW that isn’t WoW, because the friends and guilds are the only thing that keeps it aloft, and why people always go back. It’s familiar. It’s nostalgic. It’s comfortable. These same reasons are why so many GW1 players are upset at GW2.

But you hit on an important part, companies need money to develop games, games have to make money. Gw1 developed the way it did partly because they didn’t have the funds to develop their vision of a true mmo. They have included so many things in GW2 from GW1 and only reluctantly added some small part of vertical progression to draw in more players and to (hopefully) teach these players there is more to an mmo than just vertical progression. This game has to do better than GW, has to attract a broader range of players.

Instead of belittling the vertical progression players just because, perhaps take some time to help show them what GW2 really has to offer, because they won’t look for it on their own, they don’t know how to. It’s been trained out of them for years upon years upon years. There’s a whole world out there and it’s up to GW players to show it off, instead of just complaining.

I wasn’t trying to belittle anyone, so I apologize to the OP if it sounded that way.

I can honestly say that this thread was one of the best threads I have been a part of and changed my view of the game a bit more towards the favorable side.

It’s still not better than GW1 though

The gear here is still cosmetic, mostly, compared to other mmos. One of the huge differences between gear here and other places is that no matter how geared you are You will never, ever, ever, be able to face tank or just stand there. That is the drastic difference between gear here and other mmos. You gotta move people!!! Link follows for a deeper look than I am willing to type.

http://www.killtenrats.com/2011/01/14/world-of-warcraft-players-guide-to-guild-wars-2/

clay.7849:

It’s still not better than GW1 though

Is too. :P

clay.7849:

killcannon.2576:

WoW pretty much died under its own weight. It’s one reason why WoW clones die so fast, and why GW2 has a chance not to. No one wants to play WoW that isn’t WoW, because the friends and guilds are the only thing that keeps it aloft, and why people always go back. It’s familiar. It’s nostalgic. It’s comfortable. These same reasons are why so many GW1 players are upset at GW2.

But you hit on an important part, companies need money to develop games, games have to make money. Gw1 developed the way it did partly because they didn’t have the funds to develop their vision of a true mmo. They have included so many things in GW2 from GW1 and only reluctantly added some small part of vertical progression to draw in more players and to (hopefully) teach these players there is more to an mmo than just vertical progression. This game has to do better than GW, has to attract a broader range of players.

Instead of belittling the vertical progression players just because, perhaps take some time to help show them what GW2 really has to offer, because they won’t look for it on their own, they don’t know how to. It’s been trained out of them for years upon years upon years. There’s a whole world out there and it’s up to GW players to show it off, instead of just complaining.

I wasn’t trying to belittle anyone, so I apologize to the OP if it sounded that way.

I can honestly say that this thread was one of the best threads I have been a part of and changed my view of the game a bit more towards the favorable side.

It’s still not better than GW1 though

Sorry. Wasn’t trying to state that, you, individually were being that way, it’s just an overall tone to the typical progression vs fun debate. I believe you stated your opinions well and made many excellent points.

clay.7849:

@HiddenNick

One instance of failed design does not an entire game make. Sorry, but just because ANet made some mistakes with GW1 doesn’t mean that those mistakes defined the game.

It defined the game. That’s way they’ve made a entirely new game.

The Gw1 problems I’m talking not only about Domain of Anguish difficulty. Every other elite content was so hard that most people didn’t consider it fun at all!

People think that Gear Treadmills are just bad and that’s it. But the truth is that their just a type of game backbone. The real problem is that MMO’s have to be a place where you always find something to do. And Gw2 is not doing a good job about it. This is the truth!
I don’t think that the Gear Treadmill is the only option. But it’s far better then that what Gw2 is doing right now.

PS. Just wanted to add. I do consider Gw2 a great game! It kept me hooked for 6 months! So I’m not just some WoW fun whining (but I do think that WoW is a fun to play game).

killcannon.2576:

Your opinion isn’t incorrect. But I believe you don’t quite understand why they introduce power creep and vertical progression. It’s to keep people in the game, and it’s effective. Very Very Very effective. A quick, but maybe not totally appropriate analogy would be that you can treat infections with things other than antibiotics, but antibiotics work so well, so incredibly well, why would you. The thing with GW2 is that it uses antibiotics, plus homeopathy, plus spiritual healing, plus sacrificing to the old gods, plus a giant gorilla. But people are focusing on it using antibiotics, and think it somehow invalidates everything else.

That may be an incredibly apt analogy. With antibiotics due to the over use (not to mention misuse) of them there is a sort of diminishing returns due to organisms adapting which results in multi-drug resistant strains. In fact resistance to antibiotics is becoming an increasingly huge problem in medicine.

I don’t think anyone’s argued that vertical progression isn’t effective at retaining players it’s the problems that are caused by it that are the issue. This isn’t to say that there should never be any vertical progression but that it should be carefully and sparingly administered alongside other forms of progression that lack its problems.

At present i’m happy with GW2 and its limited form of vertical progression. If Anet take the easy way out and use it as a default mechanism then it’s another matter.

sinzer.4018:

At present i’m happy with GW2 and its limited form of vertical progression. If Anet take the easy way out and use it as a default mechanism then it’s another matter.

What’s wrong with Gw2 is not only the limited form of progression at level 80. What’s also wrong is the road from 1 to 80! It’s to fast and easy so it makes leveling really unsatisfying experience in compassion what it should be – it’s not fun when the equipment you crafted is worthless the next day.

WatchTheShow.7203:

…

Why do you consider some people lesser then yourself? Because they like something that you don’t? Because it sounds like it. People are the real problem? Why? Because they have different opinions or preferences?

I’m not saying that GT is the best thing ever invented! But they are far better then the Legendary Grind!
Wouldn’t you like it more if instead of gathering resources you had to defeat series of bosses? And to do that you would have to complete a series of difficult tasks all over the world to complete your ultimate weapon?

I think they should allow all classes to wear whatever armor they want, but have it runescape style, whereas if your an elementalist you should be wearing light armor because it gives you +magic damage. As to heavy armor gives you more defensive build and bad magic damage.

sinzer.4018:

killcannon.2576:

Your opinion isn’t incorrect. But I believe you don’t quite understand why they introduce power creep and vertical progression. It’s to keep people in the game, and it’s effective. Very Very Very effective. A quick, but maybe not totally appropriate analogy would be that you can treat infections with things other than antibiotics, but antibiotics work so well, so incredibly well, why would you. The thing with GW2 is that it uses antibiotics, plus homeopathy, plus spiritual healing, plus sacrificing to the old gods, plus a giant gorilla. But people are focusing on it using antibiotics, and think it somehow invalidates everything else.

That may be an incredibly apt analogy. With antibiotics due to the over use (not to mention misuse) of them there is a sort of diminishing returns due to organisms adapting which results in multi-drug resistant strains. In fact resistance to antibiotics is becoming an increasingly huge problem in medicine.

I don’t think anyone’s argued that vertical progression isn’t effective at retaining players it’s the problems that are caused by it that are the issue. This isn’t to say that there should never be any vertical progression but that it should be carefully and sparingly administered alongside other forms of progression that lack its problems.

At present i’m happy with GW2 and its limited form of vertical progression. If Anet take the easy way out and use it as a default mechanism then it’s another matter.

I agree with every letter of every word here, including the very last sentence. Essentially, that is a design decision that would cause me to leave the game for good. They aren’t within a hundred miles of it at the moment, though.

HiddenNick.7206:

sinzer.4018:

At present i’m happy with GW2 and its limited form of vertical progression. If Anet take the easy way out and use it as a default mechanism then it’s another matter.

What’s wrong with Gw2 is not only the limited form of progression at level 80. What’s also wrong is the road from 1 to 80! It’s to fast and easy so it makes leveling really unsatisfying experience in compassion what it should be – it’s not fun when the equipment you crafted is worthless the next day.

The problem you mention with equipment is endemic to most MMOs. With only a few exceptions i can think of crafted equipment is obsolete within a few hours of levelling. This is true even for WoW.

The exceptions i can think of are MMOs with full loot, free-for-all PvP.

Also, i’ve never gotten satisfaction from gaining a level regardless of MMO. I’m not saying people can’t but a number going higher isn’t what i call thrilling entertainment. Unlocking skills and trying them out is far more enjoyable for me.

Btw, took me over 100 hours to get my first character to level 80. ~25% map completion, only a couple of hours in sPvP and not a single second in WvW (was saving it).

I’m of course not saying there’s no need for further progression, i’d love being able to unlock more utilities, to have alternative weapon skills and what not. But just increasing numbers on enemies and on equipment doesn’t solve the problem of a lack of progression, at best it delays it while causing problems of its own.

sinzer.4018:

killcannon.2576:

Your opinion isn’t incorrect. But I believe you don’t quite understand why they introduce power creep and vertical progression. It’s to keep people in the game, and it’s effective. Very Very Very effective. A quick, but maybe not totally appropriate analogy would be that you can treat infections with things other than antibiotics, but antibiotics work so well, so incredibly well, why would you. The thing with GW2 is that it uses antibiotics, plus homeopathy, plus spiritual healing, plus sacrificing to the old gods, plus a giant gorilla. But people are focusing on it using antibiotics, and think it somehow invalidates everything else.

That may be an incredibly apt analogy. With antibiotics due to the over use (not to mention misuse) of them there is a sort of diminishing returns due to organisms adapting which results in multi-drug resistant strains. In fact resistance to antibiotics is becoming an increasingly huge problem in medicine.

I don’t think anyone’s argued that vertical progression isn’t effective at retaining players it’s the problems that are caused by it that are the issue. This isn’t to say that there should never be any vertical progression but that it should be carefully and sparingly administered alongside other forms of progression that lack its problems.

At present i’m happy with GW2 and its limited form of vertical progression. If Anet take the easy way out and use it as a default mechanism then it’s another matter.

You mentioned vertical progression causing problems , alluding to the fact that it has to be done in greater and greater increments similar to antibiotics when incorrectly used to treat infections. What problems do you see with vertical progression models since you didn’t state them specifically?

As an aside, the problems with strains of bacteria becoming resistant to forms of antibiotic treatment doesn’t come from the use of antibiotics, but instead from their misuse. Either not taking all of a prescribed drug because “I feel better”, or physicians prescribing them as placebos, especially during cold and flu season.

killcannon.2576:

sinzer.4018:

killcannon.2576:

Your opinion isn’t incorrect. But I believe you don’t quite understand why they introduce power creep and vertical progression. It’s to keep people in the game, and it’s effective. Very Very Very effective. A quick, but maybe not totally appropriate analogy would be that you can treat infections with things other than antibiotics, but antibiotics work so well, so incredibly well, why would you. The thing with GW2 is that it uses antibiotics, plus homeopathy, plus spiritual healing, plus sacrificing to the old gods, plus a giant gorilla. But people are focusing on it using antibiotics, and think it somehow invalidates everything else.

That may be an incredibly apt analogy. With antibiotics due to the over use (not to mention misuse) of them there is a sort of diminishing returns due to organisms adapting which results in multi-drug resistant strains. In fact resistance to antibiotics is becoming an increasingly huge problem in medicine.

I don’t think anyone’s argued that vertical progression isn’t effective at retaining players it’s the problems that are caused by it that are the issue. This isn’t to say that there should never be any vertical progression but that it should be carefully and sparingly administered alongside other forms of progression that lack its problems.

At present i’m happy with GW2 and its limited form of vertical progression. If Anet take the easy way out and use it as a default mechanism then it’s another matter.

You mentioned vertical progression causing problems , alluding to the fact that it has to be done in greater and greater increments similar to antibiotics when incorrectly used to treat infections. What problems do you see with vertical progression models since you didn’t state them specifically?

As an aside, the problems with strains of bacteria becoming resistant to forms of antibiotic treatment doesn’t come from the use of antibiotics, but instead from their misuse. Either not taking all of a prescribed drug because “I feel better”, or physicians prescribing them as placebos, especially during cold and flu season.

The overuse of vertical progression turns the game into that scene in Alice and Wonderland where you have to run as fast as you can just to stay in the same place. It can result in those with higher real world responsibilities being comparably weaker over time even if their skill and knowledge of the game is equal which can be especially problematic with PvP. Not to mention that it creates a barrier of entry for new players.

Of course i’ve no problems with some vertical progression it just has to be done carefully. I like your initial post that i quoted. You’re right.

btw, I specifically mentioned over use and misuse of antibiotics I’m not crazy enough to say no one should ever use antibiotics.

sinzer.4018:

killcannon.2576:

sinzer.4018:

killcannon.2576:

Your opinion isn’t incorrect. But I believe you don’t quite understand why they introduce power creep and vertical progression. It’s to keep people in the game, and it’s effective. Very Very Very effective. A quick, but maybe not totally appropriate analogy would be that you can treat infections with things other than antibiotics, but antibiotics work so well, so incredibly well, why would you. The thing with GW2 is that it uses antibiotics, plus homeopathy, plus spiritual healing, plus sacrificing to the old gods, plus a giant gorilla. But people are focusing on it using antibiotics, and think it somehow invalidates everything else.

That may be an incredibly apt analogy. With antibiotics due to the over use (not to mention misuse) of them there is a sort of diminishing returns due to organisms adapting which results in multi-drug resistant strains. In fact resistance to antibiotics is becoming an increasingly huge problem in medicine.

I don’t think anyone’s argued that vertical progression isn’t effective at retaining players it’s the problems that are caused by it that are the issue. This isn’t to say that there should never be any vertical progression but that it should be carefully and sparingly administered alongside other forms of progression that lack its problems.

At present i’m happy with GW2 and its limited form of vertical progression. If Anet take the easy way out and use it as a default mechanism then it’s another matter.

You mentioned vertical progression causing problems , alluding to the fact that it has to be done in greater and greater increments similar to antibiotics when incorrectly used to treat infections. What problems do you see with vertical progression models since you didn’t state them specifically?

As an aside, the problems with strains of bacteria becoming resistant to forms of antibiotic treatment doesn’t come from the use of antibiotics, but instead from their misuse. Either not taking all of a prescribed drug because “I feel better”, or physicians prescribing them as placebos, especially during cold and flu season.

The overuse of vertical progression turns the game into that scene in Alice and Wonderland where you have to run as fast as you can just to stay in the same place. It can result in those with higher real world responsibilities being comparably weaker over time even if their skill and knowledge of the game is equal which can be especially problematic with PvP. Not to mention that it creates a barrier of entry for new players.

Of course i’ve no problems with some vertical progression it just has to be done carefully. I like your initial post that i quoted. You’re right.

btw, I specifically mentioned over use and misuse of antibiotics I’m not crazy enough to say no one should ever use antibiotics.

Agree with you, it’s why I left WoW, became ridiculous.

killcannon.2576:

sinzer.4018:

killcannon.2576:

sinzer.4018:

killcannon.2576:

Your opinion isn’t incorrect. But I believe you don’t quite understand why they introduce power creep and vertical progression. It’s to keep people in the game, and it’s effective. Very Very Very effective. A quick, but maybe not totally appropriate analogy would be that you can treat infections with things other than antibiotics, but antibiotics work so well, so incredibly well, why would you. The thing with GW2 is that it uses antibiotics, plus homeopathy, plus spiritual healing, plus sacrificing to the old gods, plus a giant gorilla. But people are focusing on it using antibiotics, and think it somehow invalidates everything else.

That may be an incredibly apt analogy. With antibiotics due to the over use (not to mention misuse) of them there is a sort of diminishing returns due to organisms adapting which results in multi-drug resistant strains. In fact resistance to antibiotics is becoming an increasingly huge problem in medicine.

I don’t think anyone’s argued that vertical progression isn’t effective at retaining players it’s the problems that are caused by it that are the issue. This isn’t to say that there should never be any vertical progression but that it should be carefully and sparingly administered alongside other forms of progression that lack its problems.

At present i’m happy with GW2 and its limited form of vertical progression. If Anet take the easy way out and use it as a default mechanism then it’s another matter.

You mentioned vertical progression causing problems , alluding to the fact that it has to be done in greater and greater increments similar to antibiotics when incorrectly used to treat infections. What problems do you see with vertical progression models since you didn’t state them specifically?

As an aside, the problems with strains of bacteria becoming resistant to forms of antibiotic treatment doesn’t come from the use of antibiotics, but instead from their misuse. Either not taking all of a prescribed drug because “I feel better”, or physicians prescribing them as placebos, especially during cold and flu season.

The overuse of vertical progression turns the game into that scene in Alice and Wonderland where you have to run as fast as you can just to stay in the same place. It can result in those with higher real world responsibilities being comparably weaker over time even if their skill and knowledge of the game is equal which can be especially problematic with PvP. Not to mention that it creates a barrier of entry for new players.

Of course i’ve no problems with some vertical progression it just has to be done carefully. I like your initial post that i quoted. You’re right.

btw, I specifically mentioned over use and misuse of antibiotics I’m not crazy enough to say no one should ever use antibiotics.

Agree with you, it’s why I left WoW, became ridiculous.

hahaha that’s also why i left WoW. It put me off MMOs for ages though.

Shootsfoot.9276:

Vayne.8563:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Raine.1394:

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

@Shootsfoot

I’m not trying to take what made a game great for me. Personally, all I really cared about in GW1 was the PvP. GW1 was successful because of those things, not because I liked them. It’s because those are the things that game did well.

But, if you look at the whole argument logically, unless the gear itself provides more complexity to the game or something that makes the gameplay better, which often times it does not, then you are simply adding rewards for the sake of adding rewards – you’re not actually making the game better.

No, I agree with that. Blizzard did a couple things wrong, and they have begun to try to fix them but it was too late for me. Number bloat was the main thing. The exponential growth of HP and DPS and stats were way, way too steep and they now have numbers that are ridiculous. My paladin has more HP than some bosses do.

The other thing was content was way too gated. What they did with that was introduce raidfinder along with getting gear via dailies.

Personally, and I know people disagree with me, but I think power creep is a good thing. It adds to content and keeps things fresh and interesting. Even if I have an exotic greatsword, after two years of staring at it, I’m going to want something else, eventually.

I’m having a hard time explaining how I want vertical progression, but fun and accessible vertical progression without it really being vertical progression.

Don’t know if you’ve seen the video on power creep from extra credits so am linking it. A sense of progression and fresh new content are necessary in a game, but vertical progression (power creep) brings far too much extra baggage along for the ride. It is actually more a problem masquerading as a solution. A non-vertical sense of progression does take more effort to produce but is more rewarding long-term for both developers and players.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/power-creep

Ok, they put into words what I’ve been trying to say. Thanks for that link.

The term “incomparables” is exactly what I meant when I said “vertical progression, but fun and accessible vertical progression without it really being vertical progression.”

I honestly think this is what the devs in Guild Wars 2 are trying to accomplish. Keep it ticking over gradually, with different ways to get stuff, so that no one is massively disadvantaged, but you can keep working on your character, statwise. Nice a slow, a trickle at a time.

That’s not what the video is suggesting. What it’s suggesting is instead of working towards stat-boosting gear, how about working towards new talents or skills?

Not necessarily where GW1 went by killing named mobs, but as occasional drops, chest rewards, what have you.

Of course you’ll have the instant-gratification people complaining that they have to “grind” for them, but they aren’t necessary to complete the games. Just different ways to fight.

I’m honestly pretty bored with the fighting mechanics of the same ol’ 5 spells of the GS, for instance. It would be kind of fun to be able to turn the GS into a support or control weapon with some work.

I have no characters that use a single weapon. I swap them out. Staying with one weapon would bore me. I also use environmental weapons too. AA (alternate advancement) is done in some games, and might be done here as well. The problem with that is always balance.

But I suspect we’ll see more skills and weapons in the first upgrade, when they get around to doing it.

People keep talking about WoW and Guild Wars 1, and Guild Wars 2 is, of course, neither. It’s nothing like WoW at all. In fact, it’s far more like Guild Wars 1 than WoW, in spite of the ascended gear.

But Anet also wanted to create a playground for different people to play different ways. And what people said are right. The hard core grinders will chew through this content. But what about the casual grinders (and there are plenty of them).

I’ve said this before on this forum, but it bears repeating. Everyone thinks that what they want out of a game is what the majority want. We can’t ALL be right.

There are people, a LOT of people who don’t want gear progression. And there are a LOT of people who do. We don’t know exact numbers, but it’s obvious that some people like it and some people don’t. No one can say which camp has more members, but I suspect that, of the people who care, it’s roughly even. Certainly each group is too big for Anet to ignore.

So what is the solution. Put some gentle gear progression into the game, space it out, give those who want it something to work towards, while not screwing over those who don’t want it, by gating content. It’s a compromise.

Now it’s true the top percentage and the bottom percentage will leave. People so incensed with gear progression will not stay even if it’s small and relatively harmless. And the true progression people will also leave, but not all of them…just the die-hard top percentage.

And all the people in the middle will keep playing. Some will keep playing feeling vaguely uncomfortable and some will keep playing and never even know these arguments exist…which would be most players in my opinion.

See most players don’t think deeply about their gaming experience at all. Most players don’t read forums. Most players play a bit, do some stuff, hang with friends and have fun. Then they log off.

Anet can’t afford to appease only the ends of any spectrum if they want this game to be the “big” game they’re trying to make. You could argue they shouldn’t try to make the big game and should just cater to a niche market, which is pretty much what they ended up doing with Guild Wars 1. It had a very very loyal, relatively large audience, but they couldn’t have 270 devs working on it to make the “super game” they wanted.

Those who played Guild Wars 1 and are die hard fans will leave, but not all of us. The top percentage of people who simply either refuse to adapt, can’t adapt, or hate the game.

One thing is this though. This game was aimed at a PVe crowd far more than a PvP crowd and, in my opinion, by and large the PVe crowd from GW 1 is happier with the game than the PvP crowd. And you know, I don’t blame them. The PvP aspect is much further from the original Guild Wars than PVe is.

Me, I’m a Pve’er and I’m having fun. I actually PvP more here than I did in Guild Wars 1 because it’s more casual friendly, which a lot of PvPers don’t love. But the bottom line is, no matter how much we all feel the game should represent our own interests, the odds are there is another group just or almost as big that feel the same thing.

GW2 isn’t a grind at all, it’s the least grind MMO I’ve ever played. And I’ve played them all. From Meridian 59, The Realm, Ultima Online Diablo 1,2,3 GW1, WOW, Asheron’s Call, SRO, DS, WH, SWTOR and everything in-between.

I can tell by the OPs stance that the only MMO they’ve ever played or are ‘used to’ is WOW. WOW is not the standard, it’s a watered down copy of a copy.

In GW2 I have never had to grind, I go from event to event, quest to quest and get double XP, the reward is the XP, if you are max level the reward should be PvP, if you are looking for the best ‘gear’, use this thing called the auction house.

Vertical grind doesn’t always have to mean gearing up in WoW. Incarnate system in City of Heroes was a lot of fun, and never made me feel ashamed for being behind other players. It wasn’t a competition any more than getting to 80 in GW2.

Razimus.1847:

GW2 isn’t a grind at all, it’s the least grind MMO I’ve ever played. And I’ve played them all. From Meridian 59, The Realm, Ultima Online Diablo 1,2,3 GW1, WOW, Asheron’s Call, SRO, DS, WH, SWTOR and everything in-between.

I can tell by the OPs stance that the only MMO they’ve ever played or are ‘used to’ is WOW. WOW is not the standard, it’s a watered down copy of a copy.

In GW2 I have never had to grind, I go from event to event, quest to quest and get double XP, the reward is the XP, if you are max level the reward should be PvP, if you are looking for the best ‘gear’, use this thing called the auction house.

GW2 isn’t a grind at all, it’s the least grind MMO – clearly subjective.

People need to start their posts stating that it’s their experience or opinion rather than adding it on at the end. It seems like instead of adding to the discussion in a meaningful way you are just saying here’s what i say it’s right because I say it is.

And that’s what your post is. For me GW2 was an endless meaningless grind. The last thing me and the one person left playing i knew did before we quit was farm mats which we then realised what for and we quit.

killcannon.2576:

They have included so many things in GW2 from GW1

They kept the lore. That’s about it.

The reason a lot of GW1 players are upset with GW2 is because the weak areas of GW2 are things that GW1 did -nearly perfectly-. And it’s completely baffling.

Build templates
Skill variety (more than just combinations of damage/healing + condition/boons)
Skill customization
Story
Multiple PvP modes
Better cash shop without RNG
Costumes/hat vendors

Just off the top of my head. It’s like they sat down and listed out the ways that GW1 was better than other games, and made sure not to include them.

Rooks Zaer.5846:

killcannon.2576:

They have included so many things in GW2 from GW1

They kept the lore. That’s about it.

The reason a lot of GW1 players are upset with GW2 is because the weak areas of GW2 are things that GW1 did -nearly perfectly-. And it’s completely baffling.

Build templates
Skill variety (more than just combinations of damage/healing + condition/boons)
Skill customization
Story
Multiple PvP modes
Better cash shop
Costumes/hat vendors

Just off the top of my head. It’s like they sat down and listed out the ways that GW1 was better than other games, and made sure not to include them.

Try not to speak for all Guild Wars 1 players, because I’m one, and I disagree with a lot of what you’ve said.

Skill variety is awesome. The impossibility of balancing skills with that kind of skill variety…not so much. This was true in PvP, but also in PVe where everything became meaningless as soon as you got a couple of rit heroes.

Story – The Guild Wars 1 story was uneven. Some of it was very good…some of it was pretty mediocre. The stories got a bit better as they went on, but I seem to remember a lot of people having problems with a lot of the story elements, even in Guild Wars 1. Of course, it’s much easier to tell a story in a completely instanced game anyway, but that’s quite besides the point.

PvP modes matter not at all to me. They mattered to a lot of Guild Wars 1 players and didn’t matter to a lot of others. As the game aged, the focus of much of the playerbase did shift to PVe, again, because of balance issues.

Now what’s look at the other side of the coin. This is what Guild Wars 1 lacked that Guild Wars 2 has:

Marketplace – If I ever have to play a game where I have to stand around in something like Spamadan again, I’m out of there. That was terrible.

Heroes – A great thing for those who like to solo, until you realize once you spec your heroes, your character can pretty much do anything at all and win. You don’t even need to show up. Talk about trivializing content.

Aleshia = Because having a companion healer dropping dead constantly was awesome.

Missions = Some missiosn were a lot of fun…even awesome. However, most missions were dreadful. I didn’t enjoy a good percentage of them. Though I did enjoy the way the minions continued to attack stuff during cut scenes. That was good for a laugh at least.

Bridge bug – Remember trying to target guys on bridges and you couldn’t do it, because you just couldn’t? Maybe you don’t remember. I do.

Dyes – Remember having to buy a dye separately for each piece of armor. The dye system in Guild Wars 2, despite the complaints, is about a million times better.

Jumping/pathing – Everything in Guild Wars 1 was pathed. You couldn’t hop over a log. That made my ranger feel like quite the explorer.

Swimming – No one had ever invented swimming apparently because all waterways were off limits. I quite like underwater combat in Guild Wars 2.

Rubberbanding – Remember trying to walk over a walkway or down a path and being pulled back again and again repeatedly. Not fun.

The Maguuma Jungle – Enough said.

I’m a huge fan of the original game, but it was missing some seriously important things, like marketplace. I loved getting to a dungeon getting all the way in and having to run back because I didn’t have the quest.

See there are all sorts of things to complain about.

Now, I do agree costumes could have been done better. I think we should be able to wear them anywhere and I’m not sure why we can’t. But I also think that some of the stuff on your list, like costumes weren’t added into Guild Wars until very late in the life of the game. That’s true with some of the PvP modes as well. In fact, costumes didn’t show up for years after launch.

I think a lot of people look at Guild Wars 1 through rose colored glasses. And I suspect PvP players dislike Guild Wars 2 in general a lot more than PVe players, but Guild Wars 1, like all games, had it’s share of flaws.

If you compare Guild Wars 2 to just Prophecies, it’s a much better comparison. If you want to compare it to the rest of Guild Wars 1, you’ll have to wait a couple of years.

Mackdose.6504:

HiddenNick.7206:

clay.7849:

This is a great video someone showed me once about the difference between extrinsic and intrinsic rewards playing video games.

Author did a mistake there… In WoW your grinding not to just get the items but to get items powerful enough to overcome next challenge. What’s wrong with that?!

The progression is stagnant. You’re not actually getting stronger, you’re just coming up to par with whatever the top happens to be at that step in the treadmill.

That’s not necessarily true. That only applies to new content, it doesn’t apply to existing content which you still do with your new gear. If you’re using that gear in other areas (and you do) it’s not stagnant.

@Vayne

Try not to speak for all Guild Wars 1 players, because I’m one, and I disagree with a lot of what you’ve said.

It works both ways.

clay.7849:

@Vayne

Try not to speak for all Guild Wars 1 players, because I’m one, and I disagree with a lot of what you’ve said.

It works both ways.

What you liked the bridge bug? Different strokes I guess.

Seriously though, the way it works is this. I can pick holes in ANY game. The best game in the world has flaws, and this is doubly true of MMOs. I was showing the guy how easy it was to pick holes.

If you remember my other post, I said that everyone feels that whatever they feel is what most people feel. We can’t all be right. That’s exactly what I’m trying to do here. Provide the balance. Since the forum is overwhelmingly negative, I’m pointing out the other side. Believe it or not, if the forum was overwhelmingly positive I’d be a lot more negative.

It’s just that when people say that Guild Wars 1 was this totally awesome thing, well, yes it had it’s awesome bits. And it had some pretty bad quirks as well. It’s easy to say a bunch of one-sided stuff. I’m the guy who’s always going to bring up the other side.

Absolutely agree that GW1 is far from perfect and there are things that GW2 improved upon. But shouldn’t GW2 have kept the strengths from GW1 while also improving upon the things that weren’t? Poking holes in GW1 (that everyone agrees existed) doesn’t really explain why it shouldn’t.

Vayne.8563:

If you compare Guild Wars 2 to just Prophecies, it’s a much better comparison. If you want to compare it to the rest of Guild Wars 1, you’ll have to wait a couple of years.

Why? I’ve never understood these sorts of arguments. Did they start design/development on GW2 during Prophecies, before any subsequent improvements had been made?

Rooks Zaer.5846:

Absolutely agree that GW1 is far from perfect and there are things that GW2 improved upon. But shouldn’t GW2 have kept the strengths from GW1 while also improving upon the things that weren’t? Poking holes in GW1 (that everyone agrees existed) doesn’t really refute this.

Vayne.8563:

If you compare Guild Wars 2 to just Prophecies, it’s a much better comparison. If you want to compare it to the rest of Guild Wars 1, you’ll have to wait a couple of years.

Why? I’ve never understood these sorts of arguments. Did they start design/development on GW2 during Prophecies, before any subsequent improvements had been made?

You develop a game from the ground up and each thing you want to include in it, you have to start from scratch. Guild Wars 2 has completely different funding requirements than Guild Wars 1, for example, because the staff is many times larger. Because of this, making the costumes account bound, instead of character bound, or making it so you can just get it might not be feasible from a cost perspective. In fact, costumes and such are quite limited, because it takes time to design them, and they have to be redesigned for Guild Wars 2.

The entire game is different. They can’t just cut and paste code from the first game to this game. It has to be written. So they focus on stuff that they see as most important. Naturally weapons and skills and combat. Camera angles. Look at how long it took them to get culling out of WvW. This is major things they’re working on. They’re also working on content. It’s all time consuming.

It’s entirely possible that in Guild Wars 1, as more and more costumes made an appearance, people bought less and less of them. I know I did. Why? Because I already had a zillion costumes for each of my guys. I didn’t need more costumes. So they brainstormed and came up with costumes that did more than just get worn. They have costume brawl. Some people actually quite like that. It’s different and novel. And you get toys and animations with costumes which is also new and different.

Eventually, when the core system is stable, stuff will be added, but not right now. This game launched way too early for business reasons and Anet has been playing catch up ever since. They wanted guesting in at launch and guesting was delayed by many months.

I’m sure a lot of stuff people want will be added, but early on, they’re taking short cuts. That’s what most MMOs have to do, because of the sheer time development takes.

The bottom line is no one in this forum sits in Anet production meetings. They have reasons for the things they do, even if they don’t share them. You might not be privy to those reasons, I might not, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t there.

In the end, we’re just playing back-seat developer.

@Vayne

There were definitely problems with GW1, but they were largely introduced with new expansions and peaked with Nightfall. But, lets face it, there are a lot of things that GW1 did right that GW2 doesn’t have, and vice versa. Of course most of it is subjective, but there are things that, if you look at the niche market it served, have been left out that is a detriment to that niche. Not to mention, there are some things you say that are firmly against the majority, such as arguing against people that agree that GW1s story was better than GW2’s story. I don’t think that is subjective, I think it is a fact.

Basically the fact that GW1 left the idea of a CORPG game behind in favor of an MMORPG is big differnece between the two games and is going to kitten off the niche of people that want a CORPG. No matter how much you sugar coat it, those people have a right to be upset with the way the game has changed.

And, if you look at what happened to the development team, I think it is safe to assume that the game changed direction enough that two founders left the company, which mean that you assumption of GW1 being a precursor to GW2 today may be flawed.

Basically, ANet abandoned the niche market of GW1 and clearly that is gonna upset people. No rose colored glasses needed. It was a very successful game that is completely different. How is that do incomprehensible?

Vayne forgets that GW2 had years of experience behind them heading in to GW2. There is no excuse for the game being released unfinished except for the money. It certainly wasn’t for the players.

To suggest that GW2 should be compared to GW1 on the same timeline is flawed.

Vayne.8563:

This game launched way too early for business reasons and Anet has been playing catch up ever since.

Agreed. This is probably the root of a lot of the discontent. Lots of areas that fall short of expectations, and everyone wants the devs to spend time shoring up their area of interest….whether it’s GW1 players or players coming from other MMOs.

Do they have time to catch up with TESO, WildStar, Camelot Unchained, etc. on the horizon? Hard to say. Going to be an interesting year for MMOs I’m thinking.

clay.7849:

Vayne forgets that GW2 had years of experience behind them heading in to GW2. There is no excuse for the game being released unfinished except for the money. It certainly wasn’t for the players.

To suggest that GW2 should be compared to GW1 on the same timeline is flawed.

Actually it’s not flawed at all. Guild Wars 2 is a far more expensive and ambitious product, and a lot of what they’ve done is completely new for Anet. They did release it early because of money. Want to know why? Because Anet is a business. They have to pay rent and programmers. They made a business decision…but this happens with EVERY MMO. You haven’t played any of them, but if you ask people who have, this is what you’ll find.

MMOs are very expensive long term projects, more than any other type of game. At some point, you have to get your MMO out to market, if nothing else to recoup the investment for years of paying staff and rent and going to conventions and what have you. It really does require a huge investment. This is particularly true for smaller companies (ie not Blizzard or EA).

Look at every MMO that’s come down the road in the last several years. They’ve ALL released early with the possible exception of Rift, which launched with a tiny world. There was a very small amount of content in Rift, so they could have a pretty decent launch with a whole lot less content.

Other games, like SWToR was bug laden and there was nothing to do at end game. Even Rift suffered from a major security flaw that allowed a ton of accounts to be hacked. It was a fan who found and reported the flaw finally, Trion had no idea what was going on. So a beautiful launch was flawed anyway. Warhammer and Age of Conan launched so badly they were almost completely unplayable.

Most of these MMOs need a year or two to get their head on straight. Guild Wars 2 is no different.

I’m not saying that we should make a special exception for Guild Wars 2. Ask anyone that’s been around for any MMO launch. They all launch too early, they’re all buggy, and they never have enough content.

That’s the way it is.

Rooks Zaer.5846:

Vayne.8563:

This game launched way too early for business reasons and Anet has been playing catch up ever since.

Agreed. This is probably the root of a lot of the discontent. Lots of areas that fall short of expectations, and everyone wants the devs to spend time shoring up their area of interest….whether it’s GW1 players or players coming from other MMOs.

Do they have time to catch up with TESO, WildStar, Camelot Unchained, etc. on the horizon? Hard to say. Going to be an interesting year for MMOs I’m thinking.

If you don’t think TESO is going to launch early or be bug laden, I think you’re in for a surprise. There’ll be a HUGE hype train, and then people will get in and realize the grass isn’t always greener. It happens with every MMO. It’ll happen again.

Guild Wars 2 will have time before they launch to get itself straightened out. See that’s what Rift did. It launched a small game with very little content and then threw content out so fast that half the stuff didn’t work right. But they had time before other games came out that they could fix stuff up and they’re still viable today. It’s a business tactic.

Every MMO has the same launch problems. Either it’s tiny and there’s no content, or there’s a lot of content and it’s buggy as hell. I’ve yet to see a middle ground anyway. Look at Final Fantasy. They had to close and completely redesign the game. It was a disaster.

I think people just expect too much from MMOs at launch.

And they have all failed. You missed that part, which is integral to the whole business need to make money part. So far, ANet is walking the same line.

But, I realized that you basically said you are playing devil’s advocate. So, back ally your whole perspective is to argue against the majority. That’s what bothers me the most. No matter what anyone says, you are going to argue against it. No point in playing that game.

clay.7849:

And they have all failed. You missed that part, which is integral to the whole business need to make money part. So far, ANet is walking the same line.

But, I realized that you basically said you are playing devil’s advocate. So, back ally your whole perspective is to argue against the majority. That’s what bothers me the most. No matter what anyone says, you are going to argue against it. No point in playing that game.

Actually I don’t argue against people who say reasonable things. I argue against the unreasonable…which I find to be quite reasonable.

They all failed, but not because the games sucked. They failed for other reasons. And they all didn’t fail for the same reason. This is where your lack of experience with MMOs doesn’t come in handy. Last I saw, there were several successful MMOs, that haven’t failed, including Rift, Lotro and DDO. Lotro and DDO almost failed until they want free to play. Unfortunately at that time they also went pay to win. AoC is probably making money too now that they’ve gone free to play. Making money isn’t a failure as far as I know.

Warhammer did fall flat on its face, that’s one of the bad ones, but most of the others are still around and still making money. Even games like Star Trek Online still makes money (don’t ask me how). And of course Eve is still doing okay too.

Just because a game doesn’t have the success of WoW which had the advantage of being in the right place at the right time, with a huge advertising budget and very little competition, doesn’t mean those other games have failed.

I have a friend who won’t leave DDO to play Guild Wars 2 with me, even though he played Guild Wars 1. In fact, he left Guild Wars 1 for DDO. According to him the game is still pretty busy.

So on what grounds are you saying all these games failed?

ASB.4295:

clay.7849:

Well, the idea that you need new items to overcome new challenges is something that is largely in your head.

That’s the thing, isn’t it? It’s not a real progression, but an illusory one. Whether encounters truly become more difficult or are just a are of numbers however is largely irrelevant. What most people crave is not a specific kind of progression, but the feeling of having progressed. Even if it’s just an illusory number, better gear is far superior at creating the feeling of “getting somewhere” with your playtime for many many people than, compared to say, the mastery of a new mob mechanic. Production costs for vertical progression is also a hell of a lot lower than trying to implement new mechanics. Most people don’t care how they improve, for them all that matters is the good feeling they get once in a while in the back of their head when the game tells them they improved themselves. +5 power triggers that feeling a lot more reliably than anything else.

Following that logic, people that wants good feeling you get after having sex could just eat bunch of chocholate for same effect (science proved this).
Only now they have good feeling and they are also fat kittens. Translate this into feeling people get from carrots on treadmill, and money they wasted over years to have a bite of that carrot. At least GW2 is honest about this, since they are not after you monthly chip so they dont have to be that prostitute that stuff you with chocholate saying that your having great sex for your money.

kRiza krimos.1637:

ASB.4295:

clay.7849:

Well, the idea that you need new items to overcome new challenges is something that is largely in your head.

That’s the thing, isn’t it? It’s not a real progression, but an illusory one. Whether encounters truly become more difficult or are just a are of numbers however is largely irrelevant. What most people crave is not a specific kind of progression, but the feeling of having progressed. Even if it’s just an illusory number, better gear is far superior at creating the feeling of “getting somewhere” with your playtime for many many people than, compared to say, the mastery of a new mob mechanic. Production costs for vertical progression is also a hell of a lot lower than trying to implement new mechanics. Most people don’t care how they improve, for them all that matters is the good feeling they get once in a while in the back of their head when the game tells them they improved themselves. +5 power triggers that feeling a lot more reliably than anything else.

Following that logic, people that wants good feeling you get after having sex could just eat bunch of chocholate for same effect (science proved this).
Only now they have good feeling and they are also fat kittens. Translate this into feeling people get from carrots on treadmill, and money they wasted over years to have a bite of that carrot. At least GW2 is honest about this, since they are not after you monthly chip so they dont have to be that prostitute that stuff you with chocholate saying that your having great sex for your money.

Sorry, but if you’ve ever had sex and had chocolate, you would know the difference. Just because the same neurotransmitters may get released, doesn’t mean they feel the same.

That is just a bad analogy. Chocolate has never made me orgasm.

clay.7849:

kRiza krimos.1637:

ASB.4295:

clay.7849:

Well, the idea that you need new items to overcome new challenges is something that is largely in your head.

That’s the thing, isn’t it? It’s not a real progression, but an illusory one. Whether encounters truly become more difficult or are just a are of numbers however is largely irrelevant. What most people crave is not a specific kind of progression, but the feeling of having progressed. Even if it’s just an illusory number, better gear is far superior at creating the feeling of “getting somewhere” with your playtime for many many people than, compared to say, the mastery of a new mob mechanic. Production costs for vertical progression is also a hell of a lot lower than trying to implement new mechanics. Most people don’t care how they improve, for them all that matters is the good feeling they get once in a while in the back of their head when the game tells them they improved themselves. +5 power triggers that feeling a lot more reliably than anything else.

Following that logic, people that wants good feeling you get after having sex could just eat bunch of chocholate for same effect (science proved this).
Only now they have good feeling and they are also fat kittens. Translate this into feeling people get from carrots on treadmill, and money they wasted over years to have a bite of that carrot. At least GW2 is honest about this, since they are not after you monthly chip so they dont have to be that prostitute that stuff you with chocholate saying that your having great sex for your money.

Sorry, but if you’ve ever had sex and had chocolate, you would know the difference. Just because the same neurotransmitters may get released, doesn’t mean they feel the same.

That is just a bad analogy. Chocolate has never made me orgasm.

You need to get some better chocolate.

Vayne.8563:

Actually I don’t argue against people who say reasonable things. I argue against the unreasonable…which I find to be quite reasonable.

So it is unreasonable for GW1 players to think GW2 isn’t a good game?

Not to mention the fact that you said specifically that the only reason you argue that the game is so good is because the majority of the forum is negative and if it was more positive you would be more negative. That is the exact definition of playing devil’s advocate, which itself is an unreasonable position to take.

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

kRiza krimos.1637:

ASB.4295:

clay.7849:

Well, the idea that you need new items to overcome new challenges is something that is largely in your head.

That’s the thing, isn’t it? It’s not a real progression, but an illusory one. Whether encounters truly become more difficult or are just a are of numbers however is largely irrelevant. What most people crave is not a specific kind of progression, but the feeling of having progressed. Even if it’s just an illusory number, better gear is far superior at creating the feeling of “getting somewhere” with your playtime for many many people than, compared to say, the mastery of a new mob mechanic. Production costs for vertical progression is also a hell of a lot lower than trying to implement new mechanics. Most people don’t care how they improve, for them all that matters is the good feeling they get once in a while in the back of their head when the game tells them they improved themselves. +5 power triggers that feeling a lot more reliably than anything else.

Following that logic, people that wants good feeling you get after having sex could just eat bunch of chocholate for same effect (science proved this).
Only now they have good feeling and they are also fat kittens. Translate this into feeling people get from carrots on treadmill, and money they wasted over years to have a bite of that carrot. At least GW2 is honest about this, since they are not after you monthly chip so they dont have to be that prostitute that stuff you with chocholate saying that your having great sex for your money.

Sorry, but if you’ve ever had sex and had chocolate, you would know the difference. Just because the same neurotransmitters may get released, doesn’t mean they feel the same.

That is just a bad analogy. Chocolate has never made me orgasm.

You need to get some better chocolate.

Or you need to find a girlfriend?

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

kRiza krimos.1637:

ASB.4295:

clay.7849:

Well, the idea that you need new items to overcome new challenges is something that is largely in your head.

That’s the thing, isn’t it? It’s not a real progression, but an illusory one. Whether encounters truly become more difficult or are just a are of numbers however is largely irrelevant. What most people crave is not a specific kind of progression, but the feeling of having progressed. Even if it’s just an illusory number, better gear is far superior at creating the feeling of “getting somewhere” with your playtime for many many people than, compared to say, the mastery of a new mob mechanic. Production costs for vertical progression is also a hell of a lot lower than trying to implement new mechanics. Most people don’t care how they improve, for them all that matters is the good feeling they get once in a while in the back of their head when the game tells them they improved themselves. +5 power triggers that feeling a lot more reliably than anything else.

Following that logic, people that wants good feeling you get after having sex could just eat bunch of chocholate for same effect (science proved this).
Only now they have good feeling and they are also fat kittens. Translate this into feeling people get from carrots on treadmill, and money they wasted over years to have a bite of that carrot. At least GW2 is honest about this, since they are not after you monthly chip so they dont have to be that prostitute that stuff you with chocholate saying that your having great sex for your money.

Sorry, but if you’ve ever had sex and had chocolate, you would know the difference. Just because the same neurotransmitters may get released, doesn’t mean they feel the same.

That is just a bad analogy. Chocolate has never made me orgasm.

You need to get some better chocolate.

Or you need to find a girlfriend?

I have a girlfriend. (My wife is furious).

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

kRiza krimos.1637:

ASB.4295:

clay.7849:

Well, the idea that you need new items to overcome new challenges is something that is largely in your head.

That’s the thing, isn’t it? It’s not a real progression, but an illusory one. Whether encounters truly become more difficult or are just a are of numbers however is largely irrelevant. What most people crave is not a specific kind of progression, but the feeling of having progressed. Even if it’s just an illusory number, better gear is far superior at creating the feeling of “getting somewhere” with your playtime for many many people than, compared to say, the mastery of a new mob mechanic. Production costs for vertical progression is also a hell of a lot lower than trying to implement new mechanics. Most people don’t care how they improve, for them all that matters is the good feeling they get once in a while in the back of their head when the game tells them they improved themselves. +5 power triggers that feeling a lot more reliably than anything else.

Following that logic, people that wants good feeling you get after having sex could just eat bunch of chocholate for same effect (science proved this).
Only now they have good feeling and they are also fat kittens. Translate this into feeling people get from carrots on treadmill, and money they wasted over years to have a bite of that carrot. At least GW2 is honest about this, since they are not after you monthly chip so they dont have to be that prostitute that stuff you with chocholate saying that your having great sex for your money.

Sorry, but if you’ve ever had sex and had chocolate, you would know the difference. Just because the same neurotransmitters may get released, doesn’t mean they feel the same.

That is just a bad analogy. Chocolate has never made me orgasm.

You need to get some better chocolate.

Or you need to find a girlfriend?

I have a girlfriend. (My wife is furious).

I hope one of them is better than chocolate.

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

kRiza krimos.1637:

ASB.4295:

clay.7849:

Well, the idea that you need new items to overcome new challenges is something that is largely in your head.

That’s the thing, isn’t it? It’s not a real progression, but an illusory one. Whether encounters truly become more difficult or are just a are of numbers however is largely irrelevant. What most people crave is not a specific kind of progression, but the feeling of having progressed. Even if it’s just an illusory number, better gear is far superior at creating the feeling of “getting somewhere” with your playtime for many many people than, compared to say, the mastery of a new mob mechanic. Production costs for vertical progression is also a hell of a lot lower than trying to implement new mechanics. Most people don’t care how they improve, for them all that matters is the good feeling they get once in a while in the back of their head when the game tells them they improved themselves. +5 power triggers that feeling a lot more reliably than anything else.

Following that logic, people that wants good feeling you get after having sex could just eat bunch of chocholate for same effect (science proved this).
Only now they have good feeling and they are also fat kittens. Translate this into feeling people get from carrots on treadmill, and money they wasted over years to have a bite of that carrot. At least GW2 is honest about this, since they are not after you monthly chip so they dont have to be that prostitute that stuff you with chocholate saying that your having great sex for your money.

Sorry, but if you’ve ever had sex and had chocolate, you would know the difference. Just because the same neurotransmitters may get released, doesn’t mean they feel the same.

That is just a bad analogy. Chocolate has never made me orgasm.

You need to get some better chocolate.

Or you need to find a girlfriend?

I have a girlfriend. (My wife is furious).

I hope one of them is better than chocolate.

Not at my age.

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

kRiza krimos.1637:

ASB.4295:

clay.7849:

Well, the idea that you need new items to overcome new challenges is something that is largely in your head.

That’s the thing, isn’t it? It’s not a real progression, but an illusory one. Whether encounters truly become more difficult or are just a are of numbers however is largely irrelevant. What most people crave is not a specific kind of progression, but the feeling of having progressed. Even if it’s just an illusory number, better gear is far superior at creating the feeling of “getting somewhere” with your playtime for many many people than, compared to say, the mastery of a new mob mechanic. Production costs for vertical progression is also a hell of a lot lower than trying to implement new mechanics. Most people don’t care how they improve, for them all that matters is the good feeling they get once in a while in the back of their head when the game tells them they improved themselves. +5 power triggers that feeling a lot more reliably than anything else.

Following that logic, people that wants good feeling you get after having sex could just eat bunch of chocholate for same effect (science proved this).
Only now they have good feeling and they are also fat kittens. Translate this into feeling people get from carrots on treadmill, and money they wasted over years to have a bite of that carrot. At least GW2 is honest about this, since they are not after you monthly chip so they dont have to be that prostitute that stuff you with chocholate saying that your having great sex for your money.

Sorry, but if you’ve ever had sex and had chocolate, you would know the difference. Just because the same neurotransmitters may get released, doesn’t mean they feel the same.

That is just a bad analogy. Chocolate has never made me orgasm.

You need to get some better chocolate.

Or you need to find a girlfriend?

I have a girlfriend. (My wife is furious).

I hope one of them is better than chocolate.

Not at my age.

Your age or their age?

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

kRiza krimos.1637:

ASB.4295:

clay.7849:

Well, the idea that you need new items to overcome new challenges is something that is largely in your head.

That’s the thing, isn’t it? It’s not a real progression, but an illusory one. Whether encounters truly become more difficult or are just a are of numbers however is largely irrelevant. What most people crave is not a specific kind of progression, but the feeling of having progressed. Even if it’s just an illusory number, better gear is far superior at creating the feeling of “getting somewhere” with your playtime for many many people than, compared to say, the mastery of a new mob mechanic. Production costs for vertical progression is also a hell of a lot lower than trying to implement new mechanics. Most people don’t care how they improve, for them all that matters is the good feeling they get once in a while in the back of their head when the game tells them they improved themselves. +5 power triggers that feeling a lot more reliably than anything else.

Following that logic, people that wants good feeling you get after having sex could just eat bunch of chocholate for same effect (science proved this).
Only now they have good feeling and they are also fat kittens. Translate this into feeling people get from carrots on treadmill, and money they wasted over years to have a bite of that carrot. At least GW2 is honest about this, since they are not after you monthly chip so they dont have to be that prostitute that stuff you with chocholate saying that your having great sex for your money.

Sorry, but if you’ve ever had sex and had chocolate, you would know the difference. Just because the same neurotransmitters may get released, doesn’t mean they feel the same.

That is just a bad analogy. Chocolate has never made me orgasm.

You need to get some better chocolate.

Or you need to find a girlfriend?

I have a girlfriend. (My wife is furious).

I hope one of them is better than chocolate.

Not at my age.

Your age or their age?

Mine. They’re so going to close this thread. lol

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

kRiza krimos.1637:

ASB.4295:

clay.7849:

Well, the idea that you need new items to overcome new challenges is something that is largely in your head.

That’s the thing, isn’t it? It’s not a real progression, but an illusory one. Whether encounters truly become more difficult or are just a are of numbers however is largely irrelevant. What most people crave is not a specific kind of progression, but the feeling of having progressed. Even if it’s just an illusory number, better gear is far superior at creating the feeling of “getting somewhere” with your playtime for many many people than, compared to say, the mastery of a new mob mechanic. Production costs for vertical progression is also a hell of a lot lower than trying to implement new mechanics. Most people don’t care how they improve, for them all that matters is the good feeling they get once in a while in the back of their head when the game tells them they improved themselves. +5 power triggers that feeling a lot more reliably than anything else.

Following that logic, people that wants good feeling you get after having sex could just eat bunch of chocholate for same effect (science proved this).
Only now they have good feeling and they are also fat kittens. Translate this into feeling people get from carrots on treadmill, and money they wasted over years to have a bite of that carrot. At least GW2 is honest about this, since they are not after you monthly chip so they dont have to be that prostitute that stuff you with chocholate saying that your having great sex for your money.

Sorry, but if you’ve ever had sex and had chocolate, you would know the difference. Just because the same neurotransmitters may get released, doesn’t mean they feel the same.

That is just a bad analogy. Chocolate has never made me orgasm.

You need to get some better chocolate.

Or you need to find a girlfriend?

I have a girlfriend. (My wife is furious).

I hope one of them is better than chocolate.

Not at my age.

Your age or their age?

Mine. They’re so going to close this thread. lol

Lol. Hopefully.

Lets gets something strait, im not saying chocholate is better than sex…or drugs =)) BUT, if feeling is all they are after its a solid substitute (porns also).
Ofc sex is better, it involves physical exaustion that also provides good feeling (like training does to), emotions of one sort or another AND serotonin that chocholate provides also.
I also must add that there were times that i had better chocholate than sex.
Point of my previous post is, that substitiuting feelings is cheap way of getting thrill, and gear threadmill is just that.

Believe, me, I understand that getting rewards is fun for a lot of people, but it doesn’t provide a meaningful game experience for long. Just like chocolate won’t substitute for sex for long.

I mean, do you honestly think the people that log in just for doing the dailies and farming world boss gold chests are really going to be around for a long time? Probably not.