Guild Wars 2

Farming world bosses was thing of the month, updates mostly dictate next “hit”.

I don’t know what you are trying to say there.

kRiza is trying to say that the game gives people stuff to do and for a lot of people that’s enough. Face it there are people who want a CHALLENGE. Then there are people who want to play Farmville. They want to come home from a day of work and just kill some stuff without too much thought process.

The game updates and changes things and what people do depends on those changes. It’s not just dailies. For a month people did bosses to get those rewards. Now that they’re slightly less rewarding people will find other things to do.

Anet is just herding cats.

Let me ask you this, what do the people do when they get the max gear they want? Inevitably, many will fly through the content to get the gear and then say, “what next?” And then we have the same cycle of either ANet adds the gear and they stay or they don’t add the gear and they leave, or they realize that the gear they have is sufficient and they stay. In any case, the gear itself isn’t the thing that is keeping them playing the game, it is the thing that is making them leave the game. Well, why not just say, cya later? I mean, unless you are going to implement a giant gear treadmill, what’s the point of trying to appease those people? I admit that ascended gear really isn’t that bad – but I don’t think this game should take it to one extreme or the other, which is what the OP is kind of saying.

clay.7849:

Let me ask you this, what do the people do when they get the max gear they want? Inevitably, many will fly through the content to get the gear and then say, “what next?” And then we have the same cycle of either ANet adds the gear and they stay or they don’t add the gear and they leave, or they realize that the gear they have is sufficient and they stay. In any case, the gear itself isn’t the thing that is keeping them playing the game, it is the thing that is making them leave the game. Well, why not just say, cya later? I mean, unless you are going to implement a giant gear treadmill, what’s the point of trying to appease those people? I admit that ascended gear really isn’t that bad – but I don’t think this game should take it to one extreme or the other, which is what the OP is kind of saying.

Hence the addition of agony resistance. Instead of getting higher numbers, you’ll just have to get higher agony resistence, which isn’t necessarily higher stats. They can keep playing with that, and keep that limited to encounters like the high level fractals.

That means I can enjoy normal fractals on say level ten every day, and other people can go crazy and kill themselves on level 40.

Agony resistance doesn’t create gating problems like a gear treadmill will. Also, agony resistance doesn’t really satisfy the gear treadmill person like the OP. Remember, the OP is asking for MORE vertical progression – not saying that what we have is good enough.

clay.7849:

Agony resistance doesn’t create gating problems like a gear treadmill will. Also, agony resistance doesn’t really satisfy the gear treadmill person like the OP. Remember, the OP is asking for MORE vertical progression – not saying that what we have is good enough.

And as I’ve said before the top percentage of people who MUST HAVE better stats will leave, but it’s not necessarily a huge percentage. Some will stay…and that’s the point.

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Agony resistance doesn’t create gating problems like a gear treadmill will. Also, agony resistance doesn’t really satisfy the gear treadmill person like the OP. Remember, the OP is asking for MORE vertical progression – not saying that what we have is good enough.

And as I’ve said before the top percentage of people who MUST HAVE better stats will leave, but it’s not necessarily a huge percentage. Some will stay…and that’s the point.

I’m good with that, I think we are agreeing here. We just like to argue too much to realize it.

clay.7849:

OP is asking for MORE vertical progression – not saying that what we have is good enough.

I’m asking for better rewards! Because current reward system is worse then Gear Treadmill.

I played pandaland, then came back to GW2. Part of the reason was that there were FEWER treadmills than in Cataclysm. You hit 90 in gear that was good enough for heroics, and almost good enough for LFR. You couldn’t get much better from chain running heroics, because the currency they gave for completion was nearly worthless. Some gear improvements were possible, but RNG based; you could run a dungeon a thousand times and never get the drop you wanted from it.

Instead, what you were expected to do was daily quests: play Farmville, or go do chores for factions in crowded zones that make Jormag look like an intimate dinner party.

It was, as the OP describes, an endless grind brought on by the lack of more substantial goals to chase. GW2 presents a similar syndrome of level cap ennui, but there’s no subscription fee, so I’m here instead of there.

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

Actually I don’t argue against people who say reasonable things. I argue against the unreasonable…which I find to be quite reasonable.

So it is unreasonable for GW1 players to think GW2 isn’t a good game?

Yes, if their reasoning is “GW2 isn’t a good game because it isn’t as good as/lacks features of/has different design goals than GW1”

Ah, I misread the OP then. I thought you were asking for better rewards in the form of better gear. If that is not the case, then I agree that the rewards in this game are largely not scaled correctly to the content, especially in terms of difficulty to reward.

I would love to see more of the weapon skins be found in specific geographic locations and drop more frequently, but, unlike in GW1 where the req would be different, have them be different in blue, green, gold or exotic. Although one set back is that it is largely inconsequential due to transmutation crystals.

Seems like most people in the gw2 community looking for a gear treadmill or ‘vertical progression’ haven’t actually been in a game with a gear treadmill.
I left the last MMO i was playing for mainly that reason, which I had played for 4 years. They kept adding tier after tier of new gear and if you wanted to compete in PvP you had to keep up, either by mindless grind day in and out of the same 2 instances (RNG, mind you) or throw hundreds/thousands of dollars at the cashshop to get it. It became a job. Either dedicate all my free time to trying to keep up to the gear treadmill or fall behind and get facerolled by people who have that kind of time or that kind of credit card.
gw2 and its more horizontal progression appeals to a large amount of people who do not have the time to invest in a gear treadmill.

I would rather see Anet and any developer of any MMO work on adding new content, events, instances, stories, areas to explore, more PvP/WvW content than mindlessly throw us new tiers of gear every 6 months or so that serves no purpose other than to keep the ‘hardcore’ entertained for a couple weeks farming it out.

MrRuin.9740:

Seems like most people in the gw2 community looking for a gear treadmill or ‘vertical progression’ haven’t actually been in a game with a gear treadmill.
I left the last MMO i was playing for mainly that reason, which I had played for 4 years. They kept adding tier after tier of new gear and if you wanted to compete in PvP you had to keep up, either by mindless grind day in and out of the same 2 instances (RNG, mind you) or throw hundreds/thousands of dollars at the cashshop to get it. It became a job. Either dedicate all my free time to trying to keep up to the gear treadmill or fall behind and get facerolled by people who have that kind of time or that kind of credit card.
gw2 and its more horizontal progression appeals to a large amount of people who do not have the time to invest in a gear treadmill.

I would rather see Anet and any developer of any MMO work on adding new content, events, instances, stories, areas to explore, more PvP/WvW content than mindlessly throw us new tiers of gear every 6 months or so that serves no purpose other than to keep the ‘hardcore’ entertained for a couple weeks farming it out.

YOU played a game with a badly designed alternate advancement/endgame gearing system. I’ve played some fun ones, such as the Incarnate system in City of Heroes.

As for PvP, what sense are we talking about here? GW2 has WvWvW, which you can already play as a level 2 character who has zero hope against even someone geared in level 80 white gear, much less exotics, and in which if you ever get into a 1v1 test of skill you’re playing it wrong. And you have sPvP, which by design gives everyone BiS gear already.

Alternate advancement systems don’t even have to be relevant in WvWvW, just as your sPvP traits and gear stay in sPvP.

HiddenNick.7206:

Ok, so after all that whining about ascended gear being gear treadmill we didn’t get that actually. What’s wrong with it?

When I’m playing other MMO’s I’m constantly getting new rewards. Like a more powerful sword each time I defeat a huge boss – and that makes me feel rewarded because with that sword I can defeat even more powerful enemy! In Gw2 I never get anything interesting. Almost everything I find is just a small part of the reword I really care about.
And if you think that the only rewords that should be ever introduced are aesthetics then I have a news for you! That’s not working either! When the new Guild Missions skins arrived few days ago almost no one I know got excited about them! Most of the reactions I’ve seen are more or less: “I don’t care because they are dull”. So as far as I know everyone will just buy their ascended accessory and then pile up their commendations. So it seems that new skins aren’t rewording for everyone but those who like the look of them!

What’s good about this system???!!!

PS just to show how I see reword systems in Gw2 and in other games:
Typical MMO: Gear Grind -> Raid 1(challenge) -> Gear Grind -> Raid 2(challenge) -> Gear Grind -> Raid 3(challenge)
Gw2 –
Fotm level 1-10 -> Gear Griiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnnnnd -> Fotm level 10-20 -> Gear Griiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnnnnd -> Fotm level 20-30 (half bad)
Or
Aesthetics Griiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnnnnd -> NOTHING (B.A.D all the way)

EDIT NOTE:
Everyone here is trying to tell me how bad the Gear Treadmills are but no one is showing me any constructive example of a worthwhile reword system.
I’m not saying that GT are the tip of the mountain called fun!
I’m just saying that rewords of the Gw2 Grind system are disappointing and boring!

I’ve played 6 months this game and I NEVER felt rewarded for anything that I did!

Going for legendary is a VERY LONG trip without any fun stops! And I’m on it for 5 of 6 months playing. Is it fun for any of you?!

I’m trying really hard for differentiate between your meanings of treadmill and endless grind both are exactly the same because in the end you end up with nothing. Character progression does not… no can not involve nor include extrinsic value i,e personal processions hence the reasoning behind ANET’s intrinsic philosophy mostly associated with the pre-release manifesto of “we don’t make grindy games” .

Those other games you and others quoted required you to progress albeit temporarily with new gear GW2 does not well not so far anyway.

Asglarek.8976:

I’m trying really hard for differentiate between your meanings of treadmill and endless grind both are exactly the same because in the end you end up with nothing. Character progression does not… no can not involve nor include extrinsic value i,e personal processions hence the reasoning behind ANET’s intrinsic philosophy mostly associated with the pre-release manifesto of “we don’t make grindy games” .

Those other games you and others quoted required you to progress albeit temporarily with new gear GW2 does not well not so far anyway.

Omg… Your one of the people I really hate… Idealist.

You can play gw2 and consume whole “intrinsic” value and stop playing – but your just not satisfied by that! You feel the need to strip the game from anything that you don’t like people doing! That’s sick! Like you would like to cure everyone from thing YOU don’t like doing!

Personally I’m not farming CoF p1 or World Bosses or repeating ANYTHING for the illusion of gain. I’m like you in this regard. I did like just playing Story modes of dungeons for pure fun.

But if I would have to choose between the reword system from Rift/WoW/SWTOR and the one from Gw2 then my decision is simple.

Why?

Lately I’ve done the new F&F Instances – just for the fun playing it… But what did I get at the end? Karma and Gold(extrinsic rewords). And it felt like a slap in my face. It wasn’t exciting in any regard. Just the same boring reward as for anything else. Why is it bad? Because it took the meaning of what I’ve just achieved.

If doing things for extrinsic is bad purely because it makes you feel wrong. Then the Gw2 rewards are also bad.

HiddenNick.7206:

Lately I’ve done the new F&F Instances – just for the fun playing it… But what did I get at the end? Karma and Gold(extrinsic rewords). And it felt like a slap in my face. It wasn’t exciting in any regard. Just the same boring reward as for anything else. Why is it bad? Because it took the meaning of what I’ve just achieved.

There are two separate problems here – meaningful rewards and eq treadmill. Do you think that having meningful rewards requires introducing treadmill, or can you perhaps imagine other ways you could be rewarded without it necessarily be better stats?

Astralporing.1957:

HiddenNick.7206:

Lately I’ve done the new F&F Instances – just for the fun playing it… But what did I get at the end? Karma and Gold(extrinsic rewords). And it felt like a slap in my face. It wasn’t exciting in any regard. Just the same boring reward as for anything else. Why is it bad? Because it took the meaning of what I’ve just achieved.

There are two separate problems here – meaningful rewards and eq treadmill. Do you think that having meningful rewards requires introducing treadmill, or can you perhaps imagine other ways you could be rewarded without it necessarily be better stats?

Read my posts… I don’t like to repeat myself.

PS. And do you?!

Mackdose.6504:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

Actually I don’t argue against people who say reasonable things. I argue against the unreasonable…which I find to be quite reasonable.

So it is unreasonable for GW1 players to think GW2 isn’t a good game?

Yes, if their reasoning is “GW2 isn’t a good game because it isn’t as good as/lacks features of/has different design goals than GW1”

So, it is unreasonable for chess players to think that monopoly isn’t a good game because it isn’t as good as chess, lacks the features of chess or has different design goals than chess?

Thanks for clearing that up. I’m glad that you think it is unreasonable for anyone to think a game is worse than another because they aren’t the same. That makes a lot of sense.

HiddenNick.7206:

Astralporing.1957:

HiddenNick.7206:

Lately I’ve done the new F&F Instances – just for the fun playing it… But what did I get at the end? Karma and Gold(extrinsic rewords). And it felt like a slap in my face. It wasn’t exciting in any regard. Just the same boring reward as for anything else. Why is it bad? Because it took the meaning of what I’ve just achieved.

There are two separate problems here – meaningful rewards and eq treadmill. Do you think that having meningful rewards requires introducing treadmill, or can you perhaps imagine other ways you could be rewarded without it necessarily be better stats?

Read my posts… I don’t like to repeat myself.

PS. And do you?!

HiddenNick, it is kind of difficult to read your posts. I don’t want to insult you if you are not a native English speaker, but they are difficult to interpret.

clay.7849:

HiddenNick.7206:

Astralporing.1957:

HiddenNick.7206:

Lately I’ve done the new F&F Instances – just for the fun playing it… But what did I get at the end? Karma and Gold(extrinsic rewords). And it felt like a slap in my face. It wasn’t exciting in any regard. Just the same boring reward as for anything else. Why is it bad? Because it took the meaning of what I’ve just achieved.

There are two separate problems here – meaningful rewards and eq treadmill. Do you think that having meningful rewards requires introducing treadmill, or can you perhaps imagine other ways you could be rewarded without it necessarily be better stats?

Read my posts… I don’t like to repeat myself.

PS. And do you?!

HiddenNick, it is kind of difficult to read your posts. I don’t want to insult you if you are not a native English speaker, but they are difficult to interpret.

So maybe I could clarify myself? Could you quote me the parts that are difficult to interpret?

HiddenNick.7206:

clay.7849:

HiddenNick.7206:

Astralporing.1957:

HiddenNick.7206:

Lately I’ve done the new F&F Instances – just for the fun playing it… But what did I get at the end? Karma and Gold(extrinsic rewords). And it felt like a slap in my face. It wasn’t exciting in any regard. Just the same boring reward as for anything else. Why is it bad? Because it took the meaning of what I’ve just achieved.

There are two separate problems here – meaningful rewards and eq treadmill. Do you think that having meningful rewards requires introducing treadmill, or can you perhaps imagine other ways you could be rewarded without it necessarily be better stats?

Read my posts… I don’t like to repeat myself.

PS. And do you?!

HiddenNick, it is kind of difficult to read your posts. I don’t want to insult you if you are not a native English speaker, but they are difficult to interpret.

So maybe I could clarify myself? Could you quote me the parts that are difficult to interpret?

Ok, for example, you say the following:

Lately I’ve done the new F&F Instances – just for the fun playing it… But what did I get at the end? Karma and Gold(extrinsic rewords). And it felt like a slap in my face. It wasn’t exciting in any regard. Just the same boring reward as for anything else. Why is it bad? Because it took the meaning of what I’ve just achieved.

I just don’t understand what you are trying to say. At first, I think you are saying that the F&F instances are boring and only good for the reward. But, then I think that you are saying that the reward is bad and the mission is bad. Finally, I’m left feeling that you think the only reason for doing anything is for the reward regardless of whether the actual content was satisfying. I am also led to believe that you think that rewards should be driven by better stats (vertical progression) from the tone of the thread.

What exactly are you trying to say?

1. Are you saying that the content in this game isn’t fun because the intrinsic value is low?

2. Are you saying that the content in this game isn’t fun because you don’t keep getting better and better gear?

3. Or, are you just saying that there isn’t any meaningful difference in the loot you get from one area to the next?

4. Are you trying to say something completely different?

DarksunG.9537:

HiddenNick.7206:

clay.7849:

This is a great video someone showed me once about the difference between extrinsic and intrinsic rewards playing video games.

Author did a mistake there… In WoW your grinding not to just get the items but to get items powerful enough to overcome next challenge. What’s wrong with that?!

wait.. are you being sarcastic? like.. you really can’t see the problem of grinding for something so that you can unlock grinding for something? You can’t see what’s wrong with that concept, like you can’t grasp that?
With cosmetics I see the exact opposite of what you said. When I get a cosmetic item I am rewarded ever time I see it. I enjoy it simply being there, jsut like any piece of art. The fact that my character looks the way I want is more enjoyable than changing how high my stats are. With stats I only enjoy them when something that was IMPOSSIBLE becomes possible. And even then the reward of beating that something is only to open the gate to the next something that is impossible. There is no end to itself. With cosmetics the end is simply seeing & enjoying the art. Overcoming a challenge can also give a rewarding feeling but if it’s all based around your numbers being high enough, then you didn’t really overcome it did you? Your numbers did. It’s not much of a triumph.

Thats still a grind though…. what dont you understand.

Legendary weapons have got to be the biggest grind I have ever seen in a mmo to date to be perfectly honest.

Spvp and ranks are a grind!

Crafting is a grind!

Events are a repeat GRIND!

Fractals are a GRIND

Every other dungeon in this game IS A GRIND FOR TOKENS!

Dailies ARE A GRIND!

Throwing a fit over a gear grind doesn’t make much sense when 95% of the game is already a grind lol.

Fact is most of my friends that dont really play much say they would play more if there was something legit to work towards.

My guild quit after 3 months of WvW saying " well its fun but its very stale theres nothing to work towards and we keep playing the same 2 servers lol" Granted now there is WvW progression, again another grind, same with pve ranks.

Point is that anything can be viewed as a grind. And many many things in game are a grind… they are just for different things not gear.

“Overcoming a challenge can also give a rewarding feeling”

Overcoming a challenge is a very rewarding feeling when you are rewarded something special for doing it.

However name one challenge in this game that rewards you with something equal to its worth, that is not attached to a grind.
And overcoming a challenge with new gear with bigger numbers is still rewarding, because its still challenging regardless. It however gives the player a sense of worth and satisfaction for the work hes put in, work that is equal to his reward.
You are tying trinity gear mechanics to an action combat game. You can run any dungeon pretty much naked, so if they added gear progression well guess what its still based on your skill as a player to complete it gear or no gear. Stop comparing trinity mechanics to GW2.

@Namu

What kind of meaningful thing are you looking to “work” towards? Better gear?

I don’t disagree that there are many things that are repetitive in this game, especially if you choose to capitalize on the rewards that are available for repetitive play. But, I can’t tell if you think that we should add more repetition to the game with a reward that is better suited to what you want or if you think that the game itself could be less repetitive and reward driven.

clay.7849:

@Namu

What kind of meaningful thing are you looking to “work” towards? Better gear?

I don’t disagree that there are many things that are repetitive in this game, especially if you choose to capitalize on the rewards that are available for repetitive play. But, I can’t tell if you think that we should add more repetition to the game with a reward that is better suited to what you want or if you think that the game itself could be less repetitive and reward driven.

Nothing will make the game less repetitive.

I am simply saying, freaking out and saying omg no gear grinds. Is pretty silly when you look at level 80 content and the amount of grind that already exists. At least with a gear grind you feel like your progressing your character, and doing new challenging dungeons with that gear is fun and rewarding to most people. Just like grinding for a fancy weapon with special effects is fun for some people… oh wait its not a fun grind! lol its a grind based around rng or you being rich enough to just buy everything you need for it lol.

Anyways gear grind or no gear grind, GW2 end game is a grind. So why complain about what might come in the gear department? Rather silly I think.

There is nothing in this game to work towards already that does not have grind attached. There is really no challenges either, the combat is pretty basic. So simply beating something does not feel rewarding because honestly it was that hard to begin with.

@Namu

Instead of simply bashing the game, some critics of GW2 actually think there is a game worth playing and give their opinions of what they think would and would not make the game better.

All you are doing is saying that the game sucks so it’s not worth discussing. So why are YOU bothering to discuss it? Do you enjoy being a hypocrite?

Hmm i see alot of people moaning about grinding, yet you’re not forced to do it, that’s your choice.
It’s really getting boring reading the forums about people wanting better gear after they got max gear, if you want that go back and play WoW, Tera, Rift, this isnt any of them games.
A game is suppose to be fun, if you’re not having fun with what you are doing then why are you playing. And as for legendarys being a grind, well the word LEGENDARY kinda of gives it away, it’s going to be hard so suck it up and stop whining.

clay.7849:

@Namu

Instead of simply bashing the game, some critics of GW2 actually think there is a game worth playing and give their opinions of what they think would and would not make the game better.

All you are doing is saying that the game sucks so it’s not worth discussing. So why are YOU bothering to discuss it? Do you enjoy being a hypocrite?

Excuse me where in my posts did I say I don’t think the game isn’t worth playing?

Thank you for putting words in my mouth so to speak.

I simply stated that it is flat out wrong to be against gear progression because its a treadmill/grind when the game is already pretty much 100% grind.

I however have no problem with grind because well I need something to work towards personnally. Yes I like beating things and stuff but ultimately I like to spend my time working towards goals that reward me for time spent.

Again stop putting words in my mouth and making assumptions. Geeze.

I also said its silly to complain, you translated everything I said to QQ and bashing lol. GJ. And the stuff said about the legendary is what I gather how most feel about the current way of getting them… which is a grind and spending money… again I dont really care either way. Just saying there already exists a nasty grind for most of the community who joined GW2 to play a game with “no grind”.

@Namu

I’m sorry, but the truth hurts sometimes. Don’t get mad. Find a new game that makes you happy so you can work for some digital pixels that “reward you for time spent”.

clay.7849:

@Namu

I’m sorry, but the truth hurts sometimes. Don’t get mad. Find a new game that makes you happy so you can work for some digital pixels that “reward you for time spent”.

Now your just trolling.

Your truth is not mine, I even said in my last post im perfectly fine with the game. But its silly to be against gear progression where grind and all that already exists.

More types of content like fractals would be great because you get progression but its not “required”.

Come back and post when you grow up a little.

Namu.5712:

clay.7849:

@Namu

I’m sorry, but the truth hurts sometimes. Don’t get mad. Find a new game that makes you happy so you can work for some digital pixels that “reward you for time spent”.

Now your just trolling.

Your truth is not mine, I even said in my last post im perfectly fine with the game. But its silly to be against gear progression where grind and all that already exists.

More types of content like fractals would be great because you get progression but its not “required”.

Come back and post when you grow up a little.

So, you think it is OK to take a game that gates skins behind repetitive content and use that as a basis to create a gear grind that will lock content behind the gear grind gate?

I’m sorry, but not only does that make no sense, it would go against the entire principles of the game.

Like I said, this game isn’t for you. Say what you want, but your whining clearly says you don’t like the game. WoW is waiting for you. Sieze the moment!

I don’t like the “traditional gear grind” in most games; it’s outdtaed, obsolete, and just lacking in any sort of imagination. It seems that no one has really ever built on it and made it better, which I attribute to just those devs being just lazy.

In my opinion they need to make new gear with utility necessary to complete future challenges that adds to an arsenal to complete ever diversifying content types. Rather than stacking stats on to the same items for same type of content ( aka the traditional gear grind), diversify the content by expanding on the arsenal (not just for combat; but for jump puzzles, exploration, etc.) and variety of challenges to be overcome.

Games should be diverse in content and not just about dealing bigger numbers to enemies in combat; more emphasis needs to be placed on jump puzzles to get through areas, crafting should have been made into a mini game of sorts (think of a beatmania, DDR, Guitar hero, sort of thing where you fold metal, reheat, fold, etc. as the action needed to be performed scrolls across your screen, the more accurately you perform this the better quality your item crafted or something…).

One great addition that Anet added in this last patch and can build on are the new WvW ranks titles that other servers can see. If they could build on this and diversify it…

The one matter I am slightly disappointed on is the lack of good weapon designs in game. There are really only a handful that look good and don’t require some potentially massive RNG gambling.

clay.7849:

Ok, for example, you say the following:

Lately I’ve done the new F&F Instances – just for the fun playing it… But what did I get at the end? Karma and Gold(extrinsic rewords). And it felt like a slap in my face. It wasn’t exciting in any regard. Just the same boring reward as for anything else. Why is it bad? Because it took the meaning of what I’ve just achieved.

I just don’t understand what you are trying to say. At first, I think you are saying that the F&F instances are boring and only good for the reward. But, then I think that you are saying that the reward is bad and the mission is bad. Finally, I’m left feeling that you think the only reason for doing anything is for the reward regardless of whether the actual content was satisfying. I am also led to believe that you think that rewards should be driven by better stats (vertical progression) from the tone of the thread.

What exactly are you trying to say?

F&F Instances – they were both very fun to play I do like a lot of things about them (characters, funny dialogues, cool looking bosses and enemies). So the Intrinsic value was very high for me.
But the rewords wasn’t nowhere near to what I expect – they were meaningless(without any value whatsoever). And whole other content in the game is just like that. Very fun to play but lacks exciting rewards.

I’ll try to explain my point of view with some facts:
1. There should be always something to do in the game.
2. Players that play the game for the Intrinsic value shouldn’t be bothered by the fact that some people play it for other reasons.
3. Content gates can be removed by adding less difficult versions of the content.
4. Everything that is considered fun by the majority of players should be added to the game.
5. Rewards should have a meaning (like enabling players to overcame a challenge).
6. Rewards should be exciting.
7. Aesthetic rewards are meaningless.
8. Single aesthetic reward is exciting only for a small percentage of players.
9. Making people do the same things each day isn’t ok.
10. Making people repeat same things over and over again isn’t ok.
11. Giving people a goal and making them work for it, only gives that goal a meaning.
12. Making people compete isn’t bad and should be a part of every MMO.
13. Getting gear can be perceived as a part of competition.
14. Rewards should encourage people to participate in different activities.

What’s bad about Guild Wars 2 reward system:
1. It encourages people to do the same things over and over again (rewards are insufficiently diverse).
2. Rewards are meaningless (aside from Agony resistance and the first Rare/Exotic set).
3. Rewards aren’t exciting (99% of the rewards are just parts of Legendary weapon).
4. Legendary weapon is the worst reward ever invented. Getting one makes you feel bad the next second you get it.
5. It makes players repeat specific content many times.

What’s good about World of Warcraft Gear Treadmill:
1. Rewards are meaningful and are part of Raid Guilds competition.
2. Rewards are exciting.
3. Creates an illusion of character power progression.

What’s bad about World of Warcraft Gear Treadmill:
1. It makes players repeat specific content many times.
2. It’s redundant.
That’s about it…

People perceive Gear Treadmill as pure evil without any thought about what’s good and what’s bad about that system.

@HiddenNick

1. By the definition of it being a game, there is always something to do.
2. Players that play the game, regardless of why they play, should be bothered when the game changes negatively. Such as when power creep gates content for new players.
3. You don’t need gear progression to make content more difficult or exciting.
4. You can’t please all the people all the time.
5. You don’t need rewards to overcome a challenge. That just creates gating, not real challenges.
6. Rewards should be exciting. I agree.
7. Aesthetic rewards aren’t meaningless, ask GW1 players.
8. Your points 7 & 8 contradict each other.
9. If you can do everything in GW2 in one day only to repeat it tomorrow, you need to take a break. Also, no one is making you do anything.
10. No one makes you do anything, but for the record a majority of FPS players play competitively online and enjoy the kitten out of it.
11. I play games to have fun, not to work. If you want to work for a goal, get a job. The rewards are a hell of a lot better IRL than in your digital life.
12. That is why they have PvP and WvW.
13. Getting gear isn’t competition, it is kitten measuring. No one wins the “gear competition”. Go play PvP or WvW if you want competition. That’s why it is there.
14. Making activities fun should encourage people to participate in different activities. Just giving them better rewards is a lazy approach to making people want to play them. If the reward is taken away and no one plays it, it wasn’t good to begin with.

If you like the WoW treadmill, I’m pretty sure that game is still available to play.

The gear treadmill isn’t evil, it just provides problems for games and isn’t necessary. Everything that you perceive to be good about a gear treadmill can be solved by making better content.

@clay

Firts of all I’m talking about a reward systems. Not about a meaning of games and why do we play them!

All your points are valid only for a single player game. but for an MMO their unreasonable.

2. Players that play the game, regardless of why they play, should be bothered when the game changes negatively. Such as when power creep gates content for new players.

But they shouldn’t be bothered when content gates are not the case. Check 3.

3. You don’t need gear progression to make content more difficult or exciting.
4. You can’t please all the people all the time.

Domain of Anguish proves that making extremely difficult content isn’t the way to go.

5. You don’t need rewards to overcome a challenge. That just creates gating, not real challenges.

It doesn’t have to create gates (again: check 3). Getting Gear can be a part of challenge and nothing is wrong with that (check 12, 13).

7. Aesthetic rewards aren’t meaningless, ask GW1 players.

They don’t have a purpose. Their are just goals and that makes them meaningless (I am a Gw1 player).

8. Your points 7 & 8 contradict each other.

They don’t.
Something has a meaning – means that something have a greater purpose.
Something is exciting – means that something exists just for a pleasure (is a goal).

9. If you can do everything in GW2 in one day only to repeat it tomorrow, you need to take a break. Also, no one is making you do anything.

I’m not.

10. No one makes you do anything, but for the record a majority of FPS players play competitively online and enjoy the kitten out of it.
11. I play games to have fun, not to work. If you want to work for a goal, get a job. The rewards are a hell of a lot better IRL than in your digital life.

Your being rude now. I’m not some lifeless guy! I’m having fun playing games! And the most fun thing about games is to compete with other players. Wining is my goal! (like in FPS game)

13. Getting gear isn’t competition, it is kitten measuring. No one wins the “gear competition”. Go play PvP or WvW if you want competition. That’s why it is there.

Getting gear can be a part of competition. And it’s a apart of ALL RPG games!

14. Making activities fun should encourage people to participate in different activities. Just giving them better rewards is a lazy approach to making people want to play them. If the reward is taken away and no one plays it, it wasn’t good to begin with.

It’s not mine or this thread point.

If you like the WoW treadmill, I’m pretty sure that game is still available to play.

I don’t. But this game reward system NEEDS a lot discussion!

The gear treadmill isn’t evil, it just provides problems for games and isn’t necessary. Everything that you perceive to be good about a gear treadmill can be solved by making better content.

Give me REAL examples of that kind of content!

HiddenNick.7206:

Give me REAL examples of that kind of content!

Every update, new content release, and expansion to Guild Wars. None of them ever created a new tier of gear. But we got lots of new skills, and new things to go do. It kept me going for years, and I loved it. So much more interesting than just adding more gear to grind.

If you like gear treadmills every other MMO has what you need. If a person doesn’t like gear treadmills where else can they go?

Quit trying to taint the whole world with your garbage, please.

Wow, what a long thread, and yet no-one has really discussed the core point… M O N E Y.

Think about last Xmas. We had the events and, oddly enough, you couldn’t get enough mats to build all the Xmas mini’s – it was impossible to do. Then, suddenly, you could buy those other mini’s with real world money…

Do all the philosophising you like about GW1, GW2, WoW, EVE, etc but at the end of the day it comes down to PROFIT. Whether that’s crass gouging like the Xmas mini’s or more subtle distinctions around gameplay, cult versus puberty, grind versus whatever.

GW1 started with two USP principles – no grind, and community play. GW2 tries to retain aspects of these but at the same time tries to be pop rather than cult, to gather the masses. Jack of all, master of none… Such is life, get over it. IMHO GW2 will last for a while but its philosophy of money gouging plus confused cult and/or mass appeal mean it will stall and fall by the wayside.

ANET needs to decide what their core principles are (what revenue streams are they really going to chase?) and focus on those.

Oh, and while I’m at it, ANET needs better designers. The orrian god statues? People don’t do the temples because they’re hard, take loads of people, and don’t provide any real reward. ANET threw their collective dummies in the corner and installed god statues which mean you have to do the temples to get the whole map (e.g. not being able to get skill points because you’re getting beaten on every 3 seconds). Wrong answer. Make the temples more attractive to do.

I feel like if, down the line, they increased the level cap and introduced a gear treadmill it would actually work. I think the majority of/at least a lot of people are level 80 and geared up by now, so it wouldn’t really break anything. WvW is getting stale and it would add a reason for people to actually do content.

Spicyhakitten605:

I feel like if, down the line, they increased the level cap and introduced a gear treadmill it would actually work. I think the majority of/at least a lot of people are level 80 and geared up by now, so it wouldn’t really break anything. WvW is getting stale and it would add a reason for people to actually do content.

If they do that, I’m gone. I can get that crap in any of dozens of other games. I bought GW2 because supposedly ArenaNet doesn’t make grindy games, and I thought they might actually be able to make another good game without it.

No tier gear, and no raising level caps. I don’t want another lousy McMMO. Be different.

Go play WoW then if you want gear grind, some people don’t have the time to constantly grind for better gear then once they attain it having to grind again for the next top tier of gear. It’s just annoying and time consuming, not to mention the best gear is always VERY expensive due to how many other lower stats there are.

I’m curious, because I’ve never played, could you go through guild wars 1 and complete all the content with the skills you would normally acquire just by leveling to twenty (no buying skills, getting them from dungeons, doing quests for them, etc etc) ? If so, would this be a wise play choice? Would a character who did do this be considered underpowered? Did you need certain skills to do certain content? Did having certain skills make content easier? In pvp?

the problem isnt grind or no gear treadmill…is what anet did and continue to do regarding to ’’farm’’

killcannon.2576:

I’m curious, because I’ve never played, could you go through guild wars 1 and complete all the content with the skills you would normally acquire just by leveling to twenty (no buying skills, getting them from dungeons, doing quests for them, etc etc) ? If so, would this be a wise play choice? Would a character who did do this be considered underpowered? Did you need certain skills to do certain content? Did having certain skills make content easier? In pvp?

In Guild Wars 1, you could get skills leveling, but you didn’t get skills BY leveling. You got skills by doing skill quests, or buying them from skill NPCs who were in certain towns. You never just leveled and unlocked skills.

Elite skills, however, had to be captured, unless you’d already unlocked them under a different character, then you could use skill tomes.

In PvP you could get PvP currency to buy elite skills.

Vayne.8563:

killcannon.2576:

I’m curious, because I’ve never played, could you go through guild wars 1 and complete all the content with the skills you would normally acquire just by leveling to twenty (no buying skills, getting them from dungeons, doing quests for them, etc etc) ? If so, would this be a wise play choice? Would a character who did do this be considered underpowered? Did you need certain skills to do certain content? Did having certain skills make content easier? In pvp?

In Guild Wars 1, you could get skills leveling, but you didn’t get skills BY leveling. You got skills by doing skill quests, or buying them from skill NPCs who were in certain towns. You never just leveled and unlocked skills.

Elite skills, however, had to be captured, unless you’d already unlocked them under a different character, then you could use skill tomes.

In PvP you could get PvP currency to buy elite skills.

Which is a far more fun and interesting and rewarding way to progress than stupid gear tiers.

Chuo.4238:

Vayne.8563:

killcannon.2576:

I’m curious, because I’ve never played, could you go through guild wars 1 and complete all the content with the skills you would normally acquire just by leveling to twenty (no buying skills, getting them from dungeons, doing quests for them, etc etc) ? If so, would this be a wise play choice? Would a character who did do this be considered underpowered? Did you need certain skills to do certain content? Did having certain skills make content easier? In pvp?

In Guild Wars 1, you could get skills leveling, but you didn’t get skills BY leveling. You got skills by doing skill quests, or buying them from skill NPCs who were in certain towns. You never just leveled and unlocked skills.

Elite skills, however, had to be captured, unless you’d already unlocked them under a different character, then you could use skill tomes.

In PvP you could get PvP currency to buy elite skills.

Which is a far more fun and interesting and rewarding way to progress than stupid gear tiers.

I didn’t really find it that interesting, to be honest. Going to a guy to buy a skill, or finding the guy who sold the skill to buy it wasn’t interesting at all. Which leaves the skill capture component.

You went to the wiki, found out which boss had your kill, paid up to a platinum for a signet of capture, found the boss and killed him. Then took the skill. You might have already killed that boss 80 times in the state of game play, but never with a signet of capture on you. It was busy work.

And since you only needed a very few elite skills per profession (I’m assuming rangers for example never captured quick shot), you really didn’t have to do much work to get the skills you wanted. The only time it became “interesting” is when you wanted to work for your skill cap title, which was a form of grind. Make a list of all the bosses ikittenone, run out, cap their one skill, run back, buy another signet of capture, run back, kill another boss.

Maybe this is some strange usage of the word interesting I wasn’t previously aware of.

Vayne.8563:

Maybe this is some strange usage of the word interesting I wasn’t previously aware of.

Nope, it’s exactly what I mean.

And it’s more interesting than a gear tier because a new skill gave you something new to play with. Something you could add to a build, or make a build around. I agree that there were certain “stock builds” and elites that were more popular than others, but one of the genius things about Guild Wars that a lot of people seem to forget is how much creativity you could put into character and team builds.

Which is far more interesting than getting another piece of tier gear, who’s only purpose is to add a few numbers to my character sheet. You can do so much more with a new skill than you can with a new piece of gear.

Chuo.4238:

Vayne.8563:

Maybe this is some strange usage of the word interesting I wasn’t previously aware of.

Nope, it’s exactly what I mean.

And it’s more interesting than a gear tier because a new skill gave you something new to play with. Something you could add to a build, or make a build around. I agree that there were certain “stock builds” and elites that were more popular than others, but one of the genius things about Guild Wars that a lot of people seem to forget is how much creativity you could put into character and team builds.

Which is far more interesting than getting another piece of tier gear, who’s only purpose is to add a few numbers to my character sheet. You can do so much more with a new skill than you can with a new piece of gear.

Well the problem is, you’re comparing skill to gear, but in reality, what takes the place of those skills is traits. And I personally find traits far more interesting.

Vayne.8563:

Chuo.4238:

Vayne.8563:

Maybe this is some strange usage of the word interesting I wasn’t previously aware of.

Nope, it’s exactly what I mean.

And it’s more interesting than a gear tier because a new skill gave you something new to play with. Something you could add to a build, or make a build around. I agree that there were certain “stock builds” and elites that were more popular than others, but one of the genius things about Guild Wars that a lot of people seem to forget is how much creativity you could put into character and team builds.

Which is far more interesting than getting another piece of tier gear, who’s only purpose is to add a few numbers to my character sheet. You can do so much more with a new skill than you can with a new piece of gear.

Well the problem is, you’re comparing skill to gear, but in reality, what takes the place of those skills is traits. And I personally find traits far more interesting.

As you prefer. It’s the same idea, though. I’d rather have new traits to unlock than gear. Traits engage the brain. Gear is, or should be by now, very uncreative, cheap, and passé.

Chuo.4238:

Vayne.8563:

Chuo.4238:

Vayne.8563:

Maybe this is some strange usage of the word interesting I wasn’t previously aware of.

Nope, it’s exactly what I mean.

And it’s more interesting than a gear tier because a new skill gave you something new to play with. Something you could add to a build, or make a build around. I agree that there were certain “stock builds” and elites that were more popular than others, but one of the genius things about Guild Wars that a lot of people seem to forget is how much creativity you could put into character and team builds.

Which is far more interesting than getting another piece of tier gear, who’s only purpose is to add a few numbers to my character sheet. You can do so much more with a new skill than you can with a new piece of gear.

Well the problem is, you’re comparing skill to gear, but in reality, what takes the place of those skills is traits. And I personally find traits far more interesting.

As you prefer. It’s the same idea, though. I’d rather have new traits to unlock than gear. Traits engage the brain. Gear is, or should be by now, very uncreative, cheap, and passé.

You’re acting like this new gear is so significant a portion of the game, but it’s really not. It’s a couple of rings, an amulet you can get from dailiys and a couple of earrings…and a backpiece.

That’s all there is, so far. You’re making it sound like this will just keep getting worse. What I think is likely is this is a stopgap measure to keep people playing while more content is developed.

The problem with adding skills, adding traits, anything like that, is more work on balance. No matter what you do, that upsets balance. That’s why the WvW stuff is all passive and not player vs player related.

So Anet comes out with a game, people play all the content, and there was plenty with it, and then they get bored. You’re right. Stats are cheap and easy but real content takes time and, as we’ve already seen, people have the attention span of a newt. They need to be constantly entertained. So better something than nothing.

Keep people in the game while you work on new content. It’s the challenge every new MMO has, and it’s not going to change. Sure new content or more/better skills or traits would be better…but they then cause other issues. What’s been offered so far really hasn’t, except in the minds of some people.

Once more content is here, then it’ll be a moot point.