Guild Wars 2

Solomon Darkfury.3729:

Vayne.8563:

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

Gobhoblin.7582:

Ashen.2907:

Some of the PVE only skills tied to titles did provide a significant amount of power. They were easy mode approaches to powerful builds as top end builds without PVE only skills were capable of levels of performance at least comparable to PVE only builds.

You and I remember it quite differently. Lets agree to disagree, and let all these good folks get back to arguing about GW2, shall we?

I did give specific examples. Whatever your memory was of that, those skills existed and if you entered the meta game in PvE, you were expected to have them..and by many have them maxed out.

Anyone who played GW1 and has done things like DoA knows that Lightbringer levels were a requirement… but what I think he’s trying to tell you is that whatever happened in GW1 is irrelevant for GW2 and the manifesto and as a consequence for this discussion.

Now, I haven’t followed all posts here but is that relevant for this discussion?

GW1 did have grind but it had stuff I really wanted. GW2 has grind but for me it has no purpose so I don’t do it. I don’t mind grind always but the statement that they don’t want to make grindy games is a nice statement but I don’t think they managed to do it.

Most of the people who are complaining about grind are Guild Wars 1 veterans who claim there was no grind in Guild Wars 1. I’m saying same company, same game. It shifted from skills to gear, but there was still grind. It’s relevant because those who came from other MMOs, for the most part anyway, aren’t dying over this grind. Maybe they had time gating, which is another issue.

But the big discussion on this forums is that Anet lied to their core fans by having grind in the game, even though Guild Wars 1 that they loved had grind too.

This is a pattern over many threads, not just this one.

MMOs by definition are grind… doing a dungeon is grind… world completion is grind… I consider the boring and tedious Jormag fight small scale grind… Doing world events in general is grind… Champ trains is grind… Karma trains are grind… Legendaries are grind… High particle effect exotics are grind… ALL GRIND… GUESS WHAT?! Ascended is grind too! but you know what ALL of those things have in common? Including the new Ascended? NONE OF THEM are a requirement to progress or succeed in the game…

making consumables for wvw is a grind
making gold for buying consumables is a grind
getting to 80 is a grind
crafting is a grind
gathering is a grind

:) just thought id add

mmo’s in general are grinds.

Vayne.8563:

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

Gobhoblin.7582:

Ashen.2907:

Some of the PVE only skills tied to titles did provide a significant amount of power. They were easy mode approaches to powerful builds as top end builds without PVE only skills were capable of levels of performance at least comparable to PVE only builds.

You and I remember it quite differently. Lets agree to disagree, and let all these good folks get back to arguing about GW2, shall we?

I did give specific examples. Whatever your memory was of that, those skills existed and if you entered the meta game in PvE, you were expected to have them..and by many have them maxed out.

Anyone who played GW1 and has done things like DoA knows that Lightbringer levels were a requirement… but what I think he’s trying to tell you is that whatever happened in GW1 is irrelevant for GW2 and the manifesto and as a consequence for this discussion.

Now, I haven’t followed all posts here but is that relevant for this discussion?

GW1 did have grind but it had stuff I really wanted. GW2 has grind but for me it has no purpose so I don’t do it. I don’t mind grind always but the statement that they don’t want to make grindy games is a nice statement but I don’t think they managed to do it.

Most of the people who are complaining about grind are Guild Wars 1 veterans who claim there was no grind in Guild Wars 1. I’m saying same company, same game. It shifted from skills to gear, but there was still grind. It’s relevant because those who came from other MMOs, for the most part anyway, aren’t dying over this grind. Maybe they had time gating, which is another issue.

But the big discussion on this forums is that Anet lied to their core fans by having grind in the game, even though Guild Wars 1 that they loved had grind too.

This is a pattern over many threads, not just this one.

On the other hand, you could also argue that whether GW1 had grind or not, doesn’t change whether GW2 has grind or not.

I agree it’s silly to think that GW1 had no grind because it did, just like any other game out there….but it doesn’t change whether GW2 is grindy or not.

If you see this type of complaint as a pattern there’s an easy way to stop it. Stop enabling the pattern. You will never convince the people who keep bringing it up and if you keep responding to it, they just feel justified to bring it up again. That’s how I see it.

Namu.5712:

Ballistic.4531:

Namu.5712:

— snip —

Nice try, but if you want to start calling out, I can do it too.
It was you who said initially that all i needed to do was login 5 minutes each day for two weeks, and I’ll have it. I was replying to that. You can scroll up, it’s still there. This can’t be more further from the truth. And that’s what my reply was all about, but you took it to another level.

I never said that one needs to have it tomorrow, nor the day after. In fact all I sad is that I won’t be able to get it in 2 weeks, like Lindsey mentioned in her video. How you understood that I want it “urgently” is beyond me, since I won’t go for ascended weapon, at all. I’ll be happy with my Legendary.

Do you even realize how much of dungeon running or WvW, one will need to do to get all the mats needed for the ascended, with current dungeon/WvW rewards? Champ-specific mats, jumping puzzle-specific mats, exotic-mats and so on…
I like how you keep conveniently forgetting the “full” story and full requirements. Back item: yeah you have 2 ways to get it, grind FotM or craft it. Nice way to forget that you still need to play FotM to get those mist essences, that are required by the recipe. So you are still locked into playing FotM. Also, when FotM was released the only way to get rings was through Maw bonus chest. Later they introduced pristines. Same goes for all other trinkets. Initially, there was only one way in getting them.

Again, I don’t know about you, but I got an exotic only once from all the world bosses I ever did. Only once. And it was some exotic mask from the bonus chest. Once! I can only dream of dropping something of any real value, Forget about the precursors. So with that drop rate of exotics, what do you honestly think that the drop rate of Teq’s ascended will be? I honestly hope it will be higher, but I highly doubt it.

Stop dismissing any argument people have just because it doesn’t conform to your play style. I don’t do much of the open world. It’s boring. Dungeons are fun, and I mostly run Arah because it’s pure fun, mechanic-, lore- and graphics-wise. IMO, it’s the most lore-heavy dungeon in this game. And I do WvW. So where does that leave people with similar playstyles as mine, who will go for ascended. Again, just because you like to roam open world, doesn’t mean the rest of the players have to do the same.

And please, stop pulling out arbitrary numbers out of thin air, just because they suit your point. This goes for all sides.

If you have all required mats already from playing the game the past few months, then all you really need to do is login at a craft center and hit the button. Or at a place of power. Then log back out.

If you dont have the mats that have been available for the past year, then sure your gonna have to play catch up a little bit. But thats like a brand new player complaining he has to craft to 400 and get to level 80 and that he has no gold -.-.

And again Ascended isn’t really required for anything. Yes its a small stat boost but its not needed nor required to remain competitive in any way shape or form. This is because the game is not built around stats but rather built around dodging, reading a fight and knowledge of the profession you are fighting as well as your build vs their build. Gear is the very last and farthest thing on the pvp totem pole in GW2. That however is not true about other mmo’s like WoW and games like Aion etc etc.

I enjoy playing the game. I am not going to login after the patch and say omg omg I need to start grinding. I will go check out the new content and changes. Go get my kitten kicked by the new dragon revamp with everyone else on the server. I will then go look at my crafting see what I have what I dont have and get to 500 (which in reality will probably take only 15-30 minutes). Probably do my daily, maybe monthly if its not gonna be to time consuming.

And if you have the Ascended weapon, you won’t have to do anything to get it! That logic is a bit, weird to me. But whatever, that’s ok. I’m not arguing here if ascended are good, not good, grind, not grind. I did that back in november. If i remember correctly, the “feedback” thread, at the moment of locking, had something like 120k+ posts in it. It didn’t change anything. I knew the rest of ascended tier is coming so I accepted that and decided (after my 3 months break) to continue playing.
Again, I’m not arguing here anything about how good/bad ascended is for the game. I’m arguing with the premise that all I have to do is login 5 mins a day and magically, ascended weapons will drop from the sky for me.

Edit: Missed k in 120k+

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

Gobhoblin.7582:

Ashen.2907:

Some of the PVE only skills tied to titles did provide a significant amount of power. They were easy mode approaches to powerful builds as top end builds without PVE only skills were capable of levels of performance at least comparable to PVE only builds.

You and I remember it quite differently. Lets agree to disagree, and let all these good folks get back to arguing about GW2, shall we?

I did give specific examples. Whatever your memory was of that, those skills existed and if you entered the meta game in PvE, you were expected to have them..and by many have them maxed out.

Anyone who played GW1 and has done things like DoA knows that Lightbringer levels were a requirement… but what I think he’s trying to tell you is that whatever happened in GW1 is irrelevant for GW2 and the manifesto and as a consequence for this discussion.

Now, I haven’t followed all posts here but is that relevant for this discussion?

GW1 did have grind but it had stuff I really wanted. GW2 has grind but for me it has no purpose so I don’t do it. I don’t mind grind always but the statement that they don’t want to make grindy games is a nice statement but I don’t think they managed to do it.

Most of the people who are complaining about grind are Guild Wars 1 veterans who claim there was no grind in Guild Wars 1. I’m saying same company, same game. It shifted from skills to gear, but there was still grind. It’s relevant because those who came from other MMOs, for the most part anyway, aren’t dying over this grind. Maybe they had time gating, which is another issue.

But the big discussion on this forums is that Anet lied to their core fans by having grind in the game, even though Guild Wars 1 that they loved had grind too.

This is a pattern over many threads, not just this one.

On the other hand, you could also argue that whether GW1 had grind or not, doesn’t change whether GW2 has grind or not.

I agree it’s silly to think that GW1 had no grind because it did, just like any other game out there….but it doesn’t change whether GW2 is grindy or not.

If you see this type of complaint as a pattern there’s an easy way to stop it. Stop enabling the pattern. You will never convince the people who keep bringing it up and if you keep responding to it, they just feel justified to bring it up again. That’s how I see it.

So then… what is the suggestion? An open world with no story? No events? no quests? Nothing to work towards? In a month half the player base would die of boredom and the other half would go crazy and start talking to raccoons in game.

No grind in an MMO turns an MMO into… a chatroom with pretty wallpaper…

Namu.5712:

Morrigan.2809:

Btw there is a huge difference between playing the game and gathering resources and farming your kitten off for those resources- the latter to me is a job and I won’t do it in a game.

Its a game to me regardless. I dont see things in a game as a job.

THIS.

If you dont like doing a piece of content then dont do it. Anet has provided many alternatives to acquiring the stats you need to play the game at the same level as anyone else.
If you cant find a piece of content you enjoy doing then simply put, dont play the game.

The way I see it is types of content, whether its farming or playing high end fractals… Its all content that you play because its either really fun OR you want to achieve a specific reward from it. The same goes for almost EVERY game I play. Yes theres some grind, but you justify it as a means to a end and the end is what is satisfying. Even GTA has this in form of collection items. Skyrim, for me was least enjoyable when I was visiting every mine I could just so I could max my crafting… However when I had it was extremely satisfying knowing the hard work i put into it. Thats what made it amazing.

Sometimes I do become bored of one type of content, especially if its farming, what I do then is EITHER;

- Go do something else in game
- Go play some other game
- Go do something IRL

What I DONT do is complain about the grind that I am actually choosing to do myself. Because at the end of the day its completely my own choice. The game doesn’t force me to do anything. As iv said, I realise that grind is there, however its perfectly justifiable if my end is the goal I personally choose to set out an achieve… Like that perfect mix of armour items that make your character look amazing… Or the many crafts I have mastered… The list could go on.

I understand ascended may seem like forced grind, however as long as no other gear tiers come within the near future, I see it as a minuscule stat difference that will come in time anyway, not to mention the variety of content I can choose from to cut back that personal grind as much possible.

Solomon Darkfury.3729:

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

Gobhoblin.7582:

Ashen.2907:

Some of the PVE only skills tied to titles did provide a significant amount of power. They were easy mode approaches to powerful builds as top end builds without PVE only skills were capable of levels of performance at least comparable to PVE only builds.

You and I remember it quite differently. Lets agree to disagree, and let all these good folks get back to arguing about GW2, shall we?

I did give specific examples. Whatever your memory was of that, those skills existed and if you entered the meta game in PvE, you were expected to have them..and by many have them maxed out.

Anyone who played GW1 and has done things like DoA knows that Lightbringer levels were a requirement… but what I think he’s trying to tell you is that whatever happened in GW1 is irrelevant for GW2 and the manifesto and as a consequence for this discussion.

Now, I haven’t followed all posts here but is that relevant for this discussion?

GW1 did have grind but it had stuff I really wanted. GW2 has grind but for me it has no purpose so I don’t do it. I don’t mind grind always but the statement that they don’t want to make grindy games is a nice statement but I don’t think they managed to do it.

Most of the people who are complaining about grind are Guild Wars 1 veterans who claim there was no grind in Guild Wars 1. I’m saying same company, same game. It shifted from skills to gear, but there was still grind. It’s relevant because those who came from other MMOs, for the most part anyway, aren’t dying over this grind. Maybe they had time gating, which is another issue.

But the big discussion on this forums is that Anet lied to their core fans by having grind in the game, even though Guild Wars 1 that they loved had grind too.

This is a pattern over many threads, not just this one.

On the other hand, you could also argue that whether GW1 had grind or not, doesn’t change whether GW2 has grind or not.

I agree it’s silly to think that GW1 had no grind because it did, just like any other game out there….but it doesn’t change whether GW2 is grindy or not.

If you see this type of complaint as a pattern there’s an easy way to stop it. Stop enabling the pattern. You will never convince the people who keep bringing it up and if you keep responding to it, they just feel justified to bring it up again. That’s how I see it.

So then… what is the suggestion? An open world with no story? No events? no quests? Nothing to work towards? In a month half the player base would die of boredom and the other half would go crazy and start talking to raccoons in game.

No grind in an MMO turns an MMO into… a chatroom with pretty wallpaper…

Are you blind or do you choose to ignore the parts where I state grind is normal in any game?

Perhaps you should sit down, breathe in and out a few times and realise that what I am saying is not that I am not against grind by itself but that the fact that GW1 was grindy doesn’t change whether GW2 is grindy or not.

My main problem is not grind but the fact that it doesn’t lead to anything satisfying. So it’s pointless grind to me. That’s my issue with GW2, not that there is grind at all.

Um Abbas.5693:

cesmode.4257:

However, a lot of people play only an hour or two a night.maybe 3. These people will have a difficult time accumulating the necessary requirements for ascended gear.

I play an average hour a day, maximum, due to having a big house to take care of, one school kid and one toddler (and soon more.)
I was able to get a Legendary weapon with that amount of time.
It didn’t take me 1 month as to some HC players, but I have it.
I don’t see how it impairs anyone with small amount of time, as they have also small amount of time to dungeon run, event run, champ hunt, or whatever.

Get lucky with a precursor drop, spend real money in the TP for one, or get it within the first two weeks of the games release, or during the failed karka event?

Solomon Darkfury.3729:

Morrigan.2809:

Solomon Darkfury.3729:

Morrigan.2809:

ok I will spell it out for you since you do not seem to understand.

There is no part of the game that you cannot complete without exotics and in many cases rares.

The original premise was, lets have Ascended because fractals- stash the progression crowd in there.
This could easily have been done by adding infusions to exotics but the progression crowd would not have been pleased.
So we got a gear tier.

The initial stat boost was small and because of Fractals it could largely be ignored by people like me, who do not play Fractals because it is more boring that watching paint dry.

Fast forward a year and we have more and more trinkets and today weapons, soon armor and the stat increase becomes much larger.
PvE content does not support this, neither does WvWvW.
If you play WvWvW you are going to have to pvE to stay competitive.
In pvE they will have to add harder and harder content to support bigger and bigger gear numbers- that leads to a power-creep and content that you are locked out of until you get the gear.
None of this is in any shape or form what they marketed GW2 as for many, many years.
Player skill and level playing field is what they marketed the game kitten basically you are saying you do not understand the issues with Ascended at all.

So you are suggesting that the game should not evolve and add more difficult content? If that’s the case then an MMO would run itself into the ground…

Gear Treadmill- multiple tiers of gear added every 3-6 months in an MMO

This is ONE tier mate… that’s it. The stat difference is negligible… Seriously… look at the stats. If someone is really good at WvW then the stat difference between them in exotics and the casual WvWer who spends most of their time in PVE will be moot… you should be able to stomp a mudhole in them anyways. If the stat difference were GAMEBREAKING then you argument would be valid…

psst btw… not sure if you watched the whole livestream or read the info on Dulfy but ummmmm you can get alot of the mats in WvW… just sayin…

I am suggesting that evolution does not equal bigger numbers.

I have no problem with more difficult content- I am against fake difficulty because of bigger damage output.

A treadmill is running along to stay in the same place. That is what it is- call it a hamster wheel if you want.

When the game game out BIS was exotics, now it is ascended, who said they will not bring out another tier when this one is used up by the locusts who claim they want progression?

If they do it would have to exceed Legendary and they won’t do that… look at the stats… there is no other room for a tier in between…

They’ll just bump up Legendary stats again, just like they are doing today.

Chuo.4238:

Solomon Darkfury.3729:

Morrigan.2809:

Solomon Darkfury.3729:

Morrigan.2809:

ok I will spell it out for you since you do not seem to understand.

There is no part of the game that you cannot complete without exotics and in many cases rares.

The original premise was, lets have Ascended because fractals- stash the progression crowd in there.
This could easily have been done by adding infusions to exotics but the progression crowd would not have been pleased.
So we got a gear tier.

The initial stat boost was small and because of Fractals it could largely be ignored by people like me, who do not play Fractals because it is more boring that watching paint dry.

Fast forward a year and we have more and more trinkets and today weapons, soon armor and the stat increase becomes much larger.
PvE content does not support this, neither does WvWvW.
If you play WvWvW you are going to have to pvE to stay competitive.
In pvE they will have to add harder and harder content to support bigger and bigger gear numbers- that leads to a power-creep and content that you are locked out of until you get the gear.
None of this is in any shape or form what they marketed GW2 as for many, many years.
Player skill and level playing field is what they marketed the game kitten basically you are saying you do not understand the issues with Ascended at all.

So you are suggesting that the game should not evolve and add more difficult content? If that’s the case then an MMO would run itself into the ground…

Gear Treadmill- multiple tiers of gear added every 3-6 months in an MMO

This is ONE tier mate… that’s it. The stat difference is negligible… Seriously… look at the stats. If someone is really good at WvW then the stat difference between them in exotics and the casual WvWer who spends most of their time in PVE will be moot… you should be able to stomp a mudhole in them anyways. If the stat difference were GAMEBREAKING then you argument would be valid…

psst btw… not sure if you watched the whole livestream or read the info on Dulfy but ummmmm you can get alot of the mats in WvW… just sayin…

I am suggesting that evolution does not equal bigger numbers.

I have no problem with more difficult content- I am against fake difficulty because of bigger damage output.

A treadmill is running along to stay in the same place. That is what it is- call it a hamster wheel if you want.

When the game game out BIS was exotics, now it is ascended, who said they will not bring out another tier when this one is used up by the locusts who claim they want progression?

If they do it would have to exceed Legendary and they won’t do that… look at the stats… there is no other room for a tier in between…

They’ll just bump up Legendary stats again, just like they are doing today.

You do realize that you and many others are QQing over something that may or may not even happen right?

cesmode.4257:

“Here’s what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games — we leave the grind to other MMOs.”

Ascended items do not require a thousand hours each. Other players can easily acquire it.

Invalid quote, though I see the point. It is indeed a stretch from the original statements, but the overall philosophy is respected.
You do not require ascended items to enjoy the entire game.
It does not require an insane amount of time to get them (not even one hundred hours btw)
It does not make you super powerful.

So it’s fine, get over it.

cesmode.4257:

item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it

He can’t be possibly talking about ascended gear because I have 5 of them already…

Solomon Darkfury.3729:

Chuo.4238:

Solomon Darkfury.3729:

Morrigan.2809:

Solomon Darkfury.3729:

Morrigan.2809:

ok I will spell it out for you since you do not seem to understand.

There is no part of the game that you cannot complete without exotics and in many cases rares.

The original premise was, lets have Ascended because fractals- stash the progression crowd in there.
This could easily have been done by adding infusions to exotics but the progression crowd would not have been pleased.
So we got a gear tier.

The initial stat boost was small and because of Fractals it could largely be ignored by people like me, who do not play Fractals because it is more boring that watching paint dry.

Fast forward a year and we have more and more trinkets and today weapons, soon armor and the stat increase becomes much larger.
PvE content does not support this, neither does WvWvW.
If you play WvWvW you are going to have to pvE to stay competitive.
In pvE they will have to add harder and harder content to support bigger and bigger gear numbers- that leads to a power-creep and content that you are locked out of until you get the gear.
None of this is in any shape or form what they marketed GW2 as for many, many years.
Player skill and level playing field is what they marketed the game kitten basically you are saying you do not understand the issues with Ascended at all.

So you are suggesting that the game should not evolve and add more difficult content? If that’s the case then an MMO would run itself into the ground…

Gear Treadmill- multiple tiers of gear added every 3-6 months in an MMO

This is ONE tier mate… that’s it. The stat difference is negligible… Seriously… look at the stats. If someone is really good at WvW then the stat difference between them in exotics and the casual WvWer who spends most of their time in PVE will be moot… you should be able to stomp a mudhole in them anyways. If the stat difference were GAMEBREAKING then you argument would be valid…

psst btw… not sure if you watched the whole livestream or read the info on Dulfy but ummmmm you can get alot of the mats in WvW… just sayin…

I am suggesting that evolution does not equal bigger numbers.

I have no problem with more difficult content- I am against fake difficulty because of bigger damage output.

A treadmill is running along to stay in the same place. That is what it is- call it a hamster wheel if you want.

When the game game out BIS was exotics, now it is ascended, who said they will not bring out another tier when this one is used up by the locusts who claim they want progression?

If they do it would have to exceed Legendary and they won’t do that… look at the stats… there is no other room for a tier in between…

They’ll just bump up Legendary stats again, just like they are doing today.

You do realize that you and many others are QQing over something that may or may not even happen right?

When they say things like “there wont be new tier…in 2013” and how easily they caved in first time around and how much grind they make it to be….along all they said pre-launch…yes i understand “QQing”

MikaHR.1978:

Solomon Darkfury.3729:

Chuo.4238:

Solomon Darkfury.3729:

Morrigan.2809:

Solomon Darkfury.3729:

Morrigan.2809:

ok I will spell it out for you since you do not seem to understand.

There is no part of the game that you cannot complete without exotics and in many cases rares.

The original premise was, lets have Ascended because fractals- stash the progression crowd in there.
This could easily have been done by adding infusions to exotics but the progression crowd would not have been pleased.
So we got a gear tier.

The initial stat boost was small and because of Fractals it could largely be ignored by people like me, who do not play Fractals because it is more boring that watching paint dry.

Fast forward a year and we have more and more trinkets and today weapons, soon armor and the stat increase becomes much larger.
PvE content does not support this, neither does WvWvW.
If you play WvWvW you are going to have to pvE to stay competitive.
In pvE they will have to add harder and harder content to support bigger and bigger gear numbers- that leads to a power-creep and content that you are locked out of until you get the gear.
None of this is in any shape or form what they marketed GW2 as for many, many years.
Player skill and level playing field is what they marketed the game kitten basically you are saying you do not understand the issues with Ascended at all.

So you are suggesting that the game should not evolve and add more difficult content? If that’s the case then an MMO would run itself into the ground…

Gear Treadmill- multiple tiers of gear added every 3-6 months in an MMO

This is ONE tier mate… that’s it. The stat difference is negligible… Seriously… look at the stats. If someone is really good at WvW then the stat difference between them in exotics and the casual WvWer who spends most of their time in PVE will be moot… you should be able to stomp a mudhole in them anyways. If the stat difference were GAMEBREAKING then you argument would be valid…

psst btw… not sure if you watched the whole livestream or read the info on Dulfy but ummmmm you can get alot of the mats in WvW… just sayin…

I am suggesting that evolution does not equal bigger numbers.

I have no problem with more difficult content- I am against fake difficulty because of bigger damage output.

A treadmill is running along to stay in the same place. That is what it is- call it a hamster wheel if you want.

When the game game out BIS was exotics, now it is ascended, who said they will not bring out another tier when this one is used up by the locusts who claim they want progression?

If they do it would have to exceed Legendary and they won’t do that… look at the stats… there is no other room for a tier in between…

They’ll just bump up Legendary stats again, just like they are doing today.

You do realize that you and many others are QQing over something that may or may not even happen right?

When they say things like “there wont be new tier…in 2013” and how easily they caved in first time around and how much grind they make it to be….along all they said pre-launch…yes i understand “QQing”

Again your point is moot given the fact that there is not a single bit of content (except fractals) in game that REQUIRE you to have ascended… EVERYTHING can be completed with exotics and in most cases rares lol

Solomon Darkfury.3729:

You do realize that you and many others are QQing over something that may or may not even happen right?

You do realize that Anet themselves stated that Legendary Weapons would be bumped up to higher tiers so they can still bring in more tiers.

I don’t know if that also works for the level cap raise they are planning but in essence they left the door wide open for more tiers without ticking off the people with a legendary.

Solomon Darkfury.3729:

Chuo.4238:

Solomon Darkfury.3729:

Morrigan.2809:

Solomon Darkfury.3729:

Morrigan.2809:

ok I will spell it out for you since you do not seem to understand.

There is no part of the game that you cannot complete without exotics and in many cases rares.

The original premise was, lets have Ascended because fractals- stash the progression crowd in there.
This could easily have been done by adding infusions to exotics but the progression crowd would not have been pleased.
So we got a gear tier.

The initial stat boost was small and because of Fractals it could largely be ignored by people like me, who do not play Fractals because it is more boring that watching paint dry.

Fast forward a year and we have more and more trinkets and today weapons, soon armor and the stat increase becomes much larger.
PvE content does not support this, neither does WvWvW.
If you play WvWvW you are going to have to pvE to stay competitive.
In pvE they will have to add harder and harder content to support bigger and bigger gear numbers- that leads to a power-creep and content that you are locked out of until you get the gear.
None of this is in any shape or form what they marketed GW2 as for many, many years.
Player skill and level playing field is what they marketed the game kitten basically you are saying you do not understand the issues with Ascended at all.

So you are suggesting that the game should not evolve and add more difficult content? If that’s the case then an MMO would run itself into the ground…

Gear Treadmill- multiple tiers of gear added every 3-6 months in an MMO

This is ONE tier mate… that’s it. The stat difference is negligible… Seriously… look at the stats. If someone is really good at WvW then the stat difference between them in exotics and the casual WvWer who spends most of their time in PVE will be moot… you should be able to stomp a mudhole in them anyways. If the stat difference were GAMEBREAKING then you argument would be valid…

psst btw… not sure if you watched the whole livestream or read the info on Dulfy but ummmmm you can get alot of the mats in WvW… just sayin…

I am suggesting that evolution does not equal bigger numbers.

I have no problem with more difficult content- I am against fake difficulty because of bigger damage output.

A treadmill is running along to stay in the same place. That is what it is- call it a hamster wheel if you want.

When the game game out BIS was exotics, now it is ascended, who said they will not bring out another tier when this one is used up by the locusts who claim they want progression?

If they do it would have to exceed Legendary and they won’t do that… look at the stats… there is no other room for a tier in between…

They’ll just bump up Legendary stats again, just like they are doing today.

You do realize that you and many others are QQing over something that may or may not even happen right?

Yep, and until I know that the gear I grind out isn’t going to someday be obsoleted, I’m not even going to bother. Think it through, mate.

cesmode.4257:

We don’t make grindy games — we leave the grind to other MMOs.

That’s the funniest part of the quote, honestly.

Chuo.4238:

Solomon Darkfury.3729:

Chuo.4238:

Solomon Darkfury.3729:

Morrigan.2809:

Solomon Darkfury.3729:

Morrigan.2809:

ok I will spell it out for you since you do not seem to understand.

There is no part of the game that you cannot complete without exotics and in many cases rares.

The original premise was, lets have Ascended because fractals- stash the progression crowd in there.
This could easily have been done by adding infusions to exotics but the progression crowd would not have been pleased.
So we got a gear tier.

The initial stat boost was small and because of Fractals it could largely be ignored by people like me, who do not play Fractals because it is more boring that watching paint dry.

Fast forward a year and we have more and more trinkets and today weapons, soon armor and the stat increase becomes much larger.
PvE content does not support this, neither does WvWvW.
If you play WvWvW you are going to have to pvE to stay competitive.
In pvE they will have to add harder and harder content to support bigger and bigger gear numbers- that leads to a power-creep and content that you are locked out of until you get the gear.
None of this is in any shape or form what they marketed GW2 as for many, many years.
Player skill and level playing field is what they marketed the game kitten basically you are saying you do not understand the issues with Ascended at all.

So you are suggesting that the game should not evolve and add more difficult content? If that’s the case then an MMO would run itself into the ground…

Gear Treadmill- multiple tiers of gear added every 3-6 months in an MMO

This is ONE tier mate… that’s it. The stat difference is negligible… Seriously… look at the stats. If someone is really good at WvW then the stat difference between them in exotics and the casual WvWer who spends most of their time in PVE will be moot… you should be able to stomp a mudhole in them anyways. If the stat difference were GAMEBREAKING then you argument would be valid…

psst btw… not sure if you watched the whole livestream or read the info on Dulfy but ummmmm you can get alot of the mats in WvW… just sayin…

I am suggesting that evolution does not equal bigger numbers.

I have no problem with more difficult content- I am against fake difficulty because of bigger damage output.

A treadmill is running along to stay in the same place. That is what it is- call it a hamster wheel if you want.

When the game game out BIS was exotics, now it is ascended, who said they will not bring out another tier when this one is used up by the locusts who claim they want progression?

If they do it would have to exceed Legendary and they won’t do that… look at the stats… there is no other room for a tier in between…

They’ll just bump up Legendary stats again, just like they are doing today.

You do realize that you and many others are QQing over something that may or may not even happen right?

Yep, and until I know that the gear I grind out isn’t going to someday be obsoleted, I’m not even going to bother. Think it through, mate.

That’s like saying you will never take a plane any where because there are, on average four crashes a year… I won’t do this because this MAY happen… paranoid much?

no grind at all, because u can buy everything on the auctionhouse. its a joke that the only endgame content is purchasable by spending real money.
the “no advantage” if u dont spend money on the auction house is over. u can buy a legendary with best stats in game instantly for c.a.kitten
s just wrong to upgrade them with the patch. stats shouldnt change. there should only be the option to upgrade them to ascended.
legendary has alsways been about the skin. now its about the stats. since ascended weapon crafting is gated its pain in the a….
basicly it means if i dont want to wait 2 weeks to get the best stats ingame i just need to spend some cash and buy a legendary.

this is against everything gw2 stands for. the f2p gemshop thing is a nightmare….

not allowed to write c…a…s…h…. w…t….f…

MikaHR.1978:

When they say things like “there wont be new tier…in 2013” and how easily they caved in first time around and how much grind they make it to be….along all they said pre-launch…yes i understand “QQing”

You realise that statement is due to the PR nightmare that could result, if most players by this time next year are clamouring for new gear and anet had to take the lesser of two evils (caving in to reduced populations and player demand of new items while disregarding their original philosophy even more)?

The thing that everyone seems to be forgetting is that in the beginning, the forums were ablaze with comments wanting more gear because exotics were so easy to get…. turned out most players do love a certain amount of progression at endgame (we all know how anet failed in converting the players to ‘the whole game is endgame’, whether the actual statement is true or not) SO If the forum and player base remain heavily opposed to new tiers throughout 2013 (something that will prove whether the time gates and mat costs for ascended are successful in helping in), anet would be ridiculously stupid to introduce another tier.

Id predict that by halfway through 2014, there will be another quote stating ’don’t worry! No more tiers…. in 2014’ – and then this whole cycle of needless QQing can go on again. What’s even more strange is that is the lesser of two evils I hope for.

Jordy.1570:

no grind at all, because u can buy everything on the auctionhouse. its a joke that the only endgame content is purchasable by spending real money.
the “no advantage” if u dont spend money on the auction house is over. u can buy a legendary with best stats in game instantly for c.a.kittens just wrong to upgrade them with the patch. stats shouldnt change. there should only be the option to upgrade them to ascended.
legendary has alsways been about the skin. now its about the stats. since ascended weapon crafting is gated its pain in the a….
basicly it means if i dont want to wait 2 weeks to get the best stats ingame i just need to spend some cash and buy a legendary.

this is against everything gw2 stands for. the f2p gemshop thing is a nightmare….

not allowed to write c…a…s…h…. w…t….f…

Ascended is a permanent addition… it is NOT time gated.

Solomon Darkfury.3729:

Jordy.1570:

no grind at all, because u can buy everything on the auctionhouse. its a joke that the only endgame content is purchasable by spending real money.
the “no advantage” if u dont spend money on the auction house is over. u can buy a legendary with best stats in game instantly for c.a.kittens just wrong to upgrade them with the patch. stats shouldnt change. there should only be the option to upgrade them to ascended.
legendary has alsways been about the skin. now its about the stats. since ascended weapon crafting is gated its pain in the a….
basicly it means if i dont want to wait 2 weeks to get the best stats ingame i just need to spend some cash and buy a legendary.

this is against everything gw2 stands for. the f2p gemshop thing is a nightmare….

not allowed to write c…a…s…h…. w…t….f…

Ascended is a permanent addition… it is NOT time gated.

r u sure u know what it means?

time gated- content in which you have a limited period of time to obtain. Hence the terminology time gate gate opens/time period to obtain/gate closes…

people on these forums have been misusing that terminology quite frequently…

its not about a period where u r able to obtain it. its gated so u cant craft it even though u got all mats. everything u craft is on a timer that forces u to log in every day to make your craft.
its rly bad. ppl who log in every day have an advantage compared to ppl who log in 3 days a week. even though both ppl r playing 20 hours a week the person who logs in every day has an advantage

if i got every crafting materials on the first day i still have to wait 2 weeks and log in every day to craft everything.

Solomon Darkfury.3729:

time gated- content in which you have a limited period of time to obtain. Hence the terminology time gate gate opens/time period to obtain/gate closes…

people on these forums have been misusing that terminology quite frequently…

We are using ANet definition. Who’s wrong then?

Solomon im genrally agreeing with you, BUT Its actually hard to define within this context;

time gate [?t?m ‚g?t]
(electronics)
A circuit that gives an output only during chosen time intervals.

so in that case the system is time gated.
Thats the best a quick search came up with… Might be different within the context of MMOs though so its open to interpretation.

But as iv said, has no one actually thought about the fact a time gated system reduces the need for grind? Ofc it promotes logging in every day, however if you can acquire the materials within a variety of different in game avenues – surely the fact its time gated actually means you can play content at your own pace, reducing the fear that farmers or rich players will be ahead by miles.

1) That’s wrong time gated definition is as I stated. Time gating as a phrase has been used in MMOs before GW2 even existed. Someone suddenly changed the context and that misinterpretation has caught like wildfire for whatever reason.

2) currently the only thing that fits what you describe is Quartz Crystals though refining ectos will be the same.

Solomon Darkfury.3729:

1) That’s wrong time gated definition is as I stated. Time gating as a phrase has been used in MMOs before GW2 even existed. Someone suddenly changed the context and that misinterpretation has caught like wildfire for whatever reason.

2) currently the only thing that fits what you describe is Quartz Crystals though refining ectos will be the same.

Technically, maybe the term isn’t good. But you are completely arguing semantics here which is a logical fallacy.

cesmode.4257:

Read the below quote from Mike O’Brien, President of Arenanet.

Two things to understand before reading:
-Ascended gear is mower powerful than exotic. To debate otherwise is silly.
-You do not need ascended gear for most content — This is not the point!

“Here’s what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games — we leave the grind to other MMOs.”

-Mike Obrien, President of Arenanet

Discuss and tell me how time-gating a new tier of weapons and gear that has better stats obeys what Mike O’Brien said in his quote.

The treshold is 1000 hours. If the average player can get an ascended weapon faster than in playing 1000 hours the quoted statement is true.

I do not know how fast I can get an ascended weapon. Do you? I will report back when I have it. That can last a while because before I start I will sell all mats that are sellable to early achievers. After prices go down I will buy them back and only then start to get my ascended greatsword.

Solomon Darkfury.3729:

Jordy.1570:

no grind at all, because u can buy everything on the auctionhouse. its a joke that the only endgame content is purchasable by spending real money.
the “no advantage” if u dont spend money on the auction house is over. u can buy a legendary with best stats in game instantly for c.a.kittens just wrong to upgrade them with the patch. stats shouldnt change. there should only be the option to upgrade them to ascended.
legendary has alsways been about the skin. now its about the stats. since ascended weapon crafting is gated its pain in the a….
basicly it means if i dont want to wait 2 weeks to get the best stats ingame i just need to spend some cash and buy a legendary.

this is against everything gw2 stands for. the f2p gemshop thing is a nightmare….

not allowed to write c…a…s…h…. w…t….f…

Ascended is a permanent addition… it is NOT time gated.

You do not know what time-gated means. It is time gated.

Time gated means that the developer has placed restrictions on how often you can acquire the materials or items themselves. This way, you are unable to acquire all of it in a few days.

stof.9341:

Solomon Darkfury.3729:

1) That’s wrong time gated definition is as I stated. Time gating as a phrase has been used in MMOs before GW2 even existed. Someone suddenly changed the context and that misinterpretation has caught like wildfire for whatever reason.

2) currently the only thing that fits what you describe is Quartz Crystals though refining ectos will be the same.

Technically, maybe the term isn’t good. But you are completely arguing semantics here which is a logical fallacy.

No I am not.

Time gating denotes content unobtainable after a specific period of time ie Karka backpiece…

Ascended weapons are nothing of the sort.

cesmode.4257:

Solomon Darkfury.3729:

Jordy.1570:

no grind at all, because u can buy everything on the auctionhouse. its a joke that the only endgame content is purchasable by spending real money.
the “no advantage” if u dont spend money on the auction house is over. u can buy a legendary with best stats in game instantly for c.a.kittens just wrong to upgrade them with the patch. stats shouldnt change. there should only be the option to upgrade them to ascended.
legendary has alsways been about the skin. now its about the stats. since ascended weapon crafting is gated its pain in the a….
basicly it means if i dont want to wait 2 weeks to get the best stats ingame i just need to spend some cash and buy a legendary.

this is against everything gw2 stands for. the f2p gemshop thing is a nightmare….

not allowed to write c…a…s…h…. w…t….f…

Ascended is a permanent addition… it is NOT time gated.

You do not know what time-gated means. It is time gated.

Time gated means that the developer has placed restrictions on how often you can acquire the materials or items themselves. This way, you are unable to acquire all of it in a few days.

Again incorrect… do me a favor… google “time gated MMo content” You will find that it has been used WAAAAAY before GW2 existed and the definition was as I stated hence the term gate…. it opens for a SPECIFIC period of time then closes never to open again…

Parlourbeatflex.5970:

Namu.5712:

Morrigan.2809:

Btw there is a huge difference between playing the game and gathering resources and farming your kitten off for those resources- the latter to me is a job and I won’t do it in a game.

Its a game to me regardless. I dont see things in a game as a job.

THIS.

If you dont like doing a piece of content then dont do it. Anet has provided many alternatives to acquiring the stats you need to play the game at the same level as anyone else.
If you cant find a piece of content you enjoy doing then simply put, dont play the game.

The way I see it is types of content, whether its farming or playing high end fractals… Its all content that you play because its either really fun OR you want to achieve a specific reward from it. The same goes for almost EVERY game I play. Yes theres some grind, but you justify it as a means to a end and the end is what is satisfying. Even GTA has this in form of collection items. Skyrim, for me was least enjoyable when I was visiting every mine I could just so I could max my crafting… However when I had it was extremely satisfying knowing the hard work i put into it. Thats what made it amazing.

Sometimes I do become bored of one type of content, especially if its farming, what I do then is EITHER;

- Go do something else in game
- Go play some other game
- Go do something IRL

What I DONT do is complain about the grind that I am actually choosing to do myself. Because at the end of the day its completely my own choice. The game doesn’t force me to do anything. As iv said, I realise that grind is there, however its perfectly justifiable if my end is the goal I personally choose to set out an achieve… Like that perfect mix of armour items that make your character look amazing… Or the many crafts I have mastered… The list could go on.

I understand ascended may seem like forced grind, however as long as no other gear tiers come within the near future, I see it as a minuscule stat difference that will come in time anyway, not to mention the variety of content I can choose from to cut back that personal grind as much possible.

You are misunderstanding me- I am not choosing to grind.
I am choosing not to
I am choosing to ignore Ascended until the game makes that impossible for me,

When that happens I will quit, and make no mistake I love this game but I will walk away

I don’t find doing the same thing over and over fun- the end does not justify the means for me.
I don’t see it as achievement I see it as wasting my time.
I do not enjoy checklists
I do not enjoy farming, there is nothing in the game I want enough to do that to myself.

I do enjoy playing all my characters and doing what I feel like doing when I log on, on whatever character I feel like playing that day:
Running DE’s, exploring, the odd jumping puzzle, the odd dungeon, a bit of WvWvW, maybe take a couple of Temples, level an alt, goof off at some world bosses or heck fly my kite.

That is how I have been playing since the second beta.
That is why I bought the game.

These days it becomes harder to do that than it was at launch, not because those things are not there anymore but because the game keeps nudging and pushing- it is even in the UI- gotto go do that, have to get that achievement ( ding!) See that star go there, oh here is a mail don’t forget.

I feel coerced.
I feel like the game treats me like an infant.

Jordy.1570:

if i got every crafting materials on the first day i still have to wait 2 weeks and log in every day to craft everything.

This is what im talking about and this actually reduces the need for other players to grind to your level.
Its unfortunate for super hardcores and farmers, but its necessary in order to allow other players an equal footing.

Say your a hardcore player who could easily max everything out in the day it launches, how long till those players get bored with current gear to the point of asking for more? How many times does that happen until new players are left in the dust?

One thing anet have said from the beginning is they dont want to create a treadmill in which players are forced into grinding to the next tier just to keep up with other players. If you think about it logically, this whole ascended time gate system actually nails two birds with one stone;

- It allows every player to gain an equal amount of power over time.

OR put in another way; It stretches the vertical progression out in order to give more endgame progression over time, without the power creep leaving new players behind to a point there’s almost no point in trying. Rather than a new tier coming every 3 months, we have new categories of gear. Once ascended armour is here itll take a healthy amount of time to max everything out and wont be unrealistic for the average new player.

Thanks for this post

Morrigan.2809:

Parlourbeatflex.5970:

Namu.5712:

Morrigan.2809:

Btw there is a huge difference between playing the game and gathering resources and farming your kitten off for those resources- the latter to me is a job and I won’t do it in a game.

Its a game to me regardless. I dont see things in a game as a job.

/snip

You are misunderstanding me- I am not choosing to grind.
I am choosing not to
I am choosing to ignore Ascended until the game makes that impossible for me,

When that happens I will quit, and make no mistake I love this game but I will walk away

I don’t find doing the same thing over and over fun- the end does not justify the means for me.
I don’t see it as achievement I see it as wasting my time.
I do not enjoy checklists
I do not enjoy farming, there is nothing in the game I want enough to do that to myself.

I do enjoy playing all my characters and doing what I feel like doing when I log on, on whatever character I feel like playing that day:
Running DE’s, exploring, the odd jumping puzzle, the odd dungeon, a bit of WvWvW, maybe take a couple of Temples, level an alt, goof off at some world bosses or heck fly my kite.

That is how I have been playing since the second beta.
That is why I bought the game.

These days it becomes harder to do that than it was at launch, not because those things are not there anymore but because the game keeps nudging and pushing- it is even in the UI- gotto go do that, have to get that achievement ( ding!) See that star go there, oh here is a mail don’t forget.

I feel coerced.
I feel like the game treats me like an infant.

Yes i do misunderstand you… completely..

While I might have a binge session every now and again in order to progress myself towards a certain goal (otherwise known as farming) – my average week of play sounds a lot like yours… I do this and that, whatever i find entertaining at the time, some days i logon just for the daily, some days Im far too busy to do that…

Yet, I have;

- A main with a full set of ascended accessories.
- 3 level 80s, geared (only main has perfect desired style and multiple builds worth though)
- 4 Crafts mastered
- Enough mats to start creating ascended weps when I collect the emats yet to be released
- Obviously much more irrelevant ranks, titles and stuff

So what I misunderstand is the thing your actually complaining about? Your complaint is that anet gives mails and UI things that point out what a player can do if he is bored of all the content he already knows about????
So with that logic you hate it when games give tooltips? Or hints at mechanics?

So yea, I really do not understand.

3,112 hours played and I’m still waiting on my first precursor drop! No Grind is just PR magic smoke screen.

Parlourbeatflex.5970:

Morrigan.2809:

Parlourbeatflex.5970:

Namu.5712:

Morrigan.2809:

Btw there is a huge difference between playing the game and gathering resources and farming your kitten off for those resources- the latter to me is a job and I won’t do it in a game.

Its a game to me regardless. I dont see things in a game as a job.

/snip

You are misunderstanding me- I am not choosing to grind.
I am choosing not to
I am choosing to ignore Ascended until the game makes that impossible for me,

When that happens I will quit, and make no mistake I love this game but I will walk away

I don’t find doing the same thing over and over fun- the end does not justify the means for me.
I don’t see it as achievement I see it as wasting my time.
I do not enjoy checklists
I do not enjoy farming, there is nothing in the game I want enough to do that to myself.

I do enjoy playing all my characters and doing what I feel like doing when I log on, on whatever character I feel like playing that day:
Running DE’s, exploring, the odd jumping puzzle, the odd dungeon, a bit of WvWvW, maybe take a couple of Temples, level an alt, goof off at some world bosses or heck fly my kite.

That is how I have been playing since the second beta.
That is why I bought the game.

These days it becomes harder to do that than it was at launch, not because those things are not there anymore but because the game keeps nudging and pushing- it is even in the UI- gotto go do that, have to get that achievement ( ding!) See that star go there, oh here is a mail don’t forget.

I feel coerced.
I feel like the game treats me like an infant.

Yes i do misunderstand you… completely..

While I might have a binge session every now and again in order to progress myself towards a certain goal (otherwise known as farming) – my average week of play sounds a lot like yours… I do this and that, whatever i find entertaining at the time, some days i logon just for the daily, some days Im far too busy to do that…

Yet, I have;

- A main with a full set of ascended accessories.
- 3 level 80s, geared (only main has perfect desired style and multiple builds worth though)
- 4 Crafts mastered
- Enough mats to start creating ascended weps when I collect the emats yet to be released
- Obviously much more irrelevant ranks, titles and stuff

So what I misunderstand is the thing your actually complaining about? Your complaint is that anet gives mails and UI things that point out what a player can do if he is bored of all the content he already knows about????
So with that logic you hate it when games give tooltips? Or hints at mechanics?

So yea, I really do not understand.

Nevermind- I am sorry.
I am not picking on you
I am angry about yet more Ascended, which in my opinion is stupid and pointless
As a result I feel caged in.
I should just stay the heck off the forums.

MasterYoda.8563:

3,112 hours played and I’m still waiting on my first precursor drop! No Grind is just PR magic smoke screen.

Twice that in playing hours, never even seen a precurser let alone have any chance whatsoever of having one.

If you want “stuff” in GW2 it’s going to be a massive endless grind.

As I have said multiple times, the mmorpg community is largely the people to be held responsible for finding ourselves in this situation where rng is used to keep people playing through a skinner box system. Developers learned they can keep people pressing buttons for their “food pellets” if they randomize the frequency of the reward. It’s common industry practice, even touted as being “good” game design because it appeals to “the human condition” which is a generically ambivalent phrase that can be used to suit all kinds of meanings. So long as players make arguments to support this kind of activity mmorpgs will not progress beyond the lazy design standard to simply keep people playing. I realize these companies are a business and as such they need to make a profit and the best way to do that is to have people playing their game, but seriously does anyone think there are not better options that could be used besides relying on rng. It is no surprise however that developers take the easy route, because so many people have been so conditioned to this by now (the sad part is that many don’t even realize it), it is the modus operandi by which all mmorpg designers make their games. Anet proved they could push out “content” every two weeks, in fact they are proud of being able to do such, so why then do they require “carrot on a stick” rng to keep people playing? The answer is simple, the community won’t allow them to try to be different.

Tried coming back today. Spent about two hours on the game. Not seeing the improved drops in the slightest. Guess they still haven’t fixed the problem with the Wi Flag loot issues. Hit DR like multiple times just like normal while trying to do events for the daily. Not only did mostly greys drop from mobs but half of them didn’t drop anything even when I went to another zone.

Doesn’t look like much has changed since last I was online. It was a typical waste of time.

So I gotta say if they can’t even fix something this simple why should I, a player, a customer, believe anything they say about what’s coming or how it will be an improvement? Why should I come back permanently when they still haven’t fixed one of the biggest issues for some of us, loot acquisition? Some of us can’t even grind because of this problem.

I asked this before in another thread, no dev answered of course. Asked if the T7 drops would be in any way affected by DR or the typical loot algorithm because it would be an even greater insult if one of us who is suffering this loot problem comes back to the game beats the NEW improved Teq and then gets the chest only to find that DR set in somehow and made the whole thing worthless.

tigirius.9014:

Tried coming back today. Spent about two hours on the game. Not seeing the improved drops in the slightest. Guess they still haven’t fixed the problem with the Wi Flag loot issues. Hit DR like multiple times just like normal while trying to do events for the daily. Not only did mostly greys drop from mobs but half of them didn’t drop anything even when I went to another zone.

Doesn’t look like much has changed since last I was online. It was a typical waste of time.

So I gotta say if they can’t even fix something this simple why should I, a player, a customer, believe anything they say about what’s coming or how it will be an improvement? Why should I come back permanently when they still haven’t fixed one of the biggest issues for some of us, loot acquisition? Some of us can’t even grind because of this problem.

I asked this before in another thread, no dev answered of course. Asked if the T7 drops would be in any way affected by DR or the typical loot algorithm because it would be an even greater insult if one of us who is suffering this loot problem comes back to the game beats the NEW improved Teq and then gets the chest only to find that DR set in somehow and made the whole thing worthless.

I can understand how your problem would be frustrating. On the other hand, not having that problem myself, I only have your word that there is that problem. Maybe there is and maybe there isn’t.

But with all such problems in a program this big, finding the elusive element could be beyond challenging. And if a small enough percentage of the population is experiencing it, it’s not even worth putting the resources into doing it.

It’s a business decision.

Morrigan.2809:

Nevermind- I am sorry.
I am not picking on you
I am angry about yet more Ascended, which in my opinion is stupid and pointless
As a result I feel caged in.
I should just stay the heck off the forums.

No I wasn’t assuming you were picking on me at all. Sorry if my post made it sound like I was offended… I’m just merely wondering why it is you feel caged in? It seems to me that’s a choice your making, not the game forcing you to feel it.

Solid Gold.9310:

MasterYoda.8563:

3,112 hours played and I’m still waiting on my first precursor drop! No Grind is just PR magic smoke screen.

Twice that in playing hours, never even seen a precurser let alone have any chance whatsoever of having one.

If you want “stuff” in GW2 it’s going to be a massive endless grind.

But again, thats crazy logic. Grind to me is forcing players into content or particular type of content as the only way to acquire items that actually make a difference in game (power/stats).
Cosmetic items were always gonna be grindy – because MMO players like a sense of rarity and thats the acceptable loss we take in order to evolve from traditional mechanics. Same as the acceptable loss within the cash shop.

Vayne.8563:

Sirendor.1394:

Vayne.8563:

Gobhoblin.7582:

Vayne.8563:

The funny bit is, you did have to grind to get the most power out of your skills in Guild Wars 1. They’ve changed it more recently after Guild Wars 2 was released, presumably because most people no longer play Guild Wars 1 to play Guild Wars 1. They play it to get cool stuff for Guild Wars 2.

But yeah, there was a ton of grind. People forget.

Ok – see the winky face on my post? On my planet, that usually means someone is joking. Calm down.

On the subject of grinding in GW1, maybe I am mis-remembering, but wasn’t all the grind cosmetic? Sure, they introduced the EotN titles that gave you a damage boost against certain beasties – but if I remember rightly they changed that after a massive outcry from the community?

Again, I’m probably looking back with rose-tinted specs, but I don’t remember a GW1 grind that wasn’t cosmetic or title related…no performance benefit, just pure kitten.

…which is why I loved the game. I have no strong ragey feelings about the grind for gear in GW2, other than a profound sense of disappointment.

Guild Wars 1 had skill grind. Every time a new product game out, there were new skills to acquire. Take the skill Save Yourselves. A perfectly innocuous skill, until you realized that your paragon imbagon build was completely dependent upon it and that you couldn’t get into a DOA group if it wasn’t high enough.

That was a Luxon/Kurzick skill which had 12 ranks. Look up FFF in the Guild Wars 1 wiki for instructions on how to fast faction farm. People farmed those points forever, to get skills like that up.

The necromancer skill necrosis from NF was also like that. You want that skill more powerful you have to grind Sunspear points. Technobabble, pain inverter, the sin skill which the permasin build depended on, the norn skill ursan, which people wanted you to have rank 8 or higher in their norn title track.

It’s the same thing here. Do you NEED ascended gear to play this game? No. You don’t. And those skills were so kitten powerful they changed the balance of PvE completely. I mean a lot. Far more than ascended gear will affect this game.

But that was okay because that was skill grind, not gear grind.

That’s the difference. Skill grind > Gear grind. Skill grind is something meaningful, unlocking new skills the more you play and consequently allowing you to play in a more diverse and exciting way, developing your own new strategies etc.

Gear grind on the contrary means that you get a new set with your current stats + x, not really making any changes, except that you do more damage according to the stats, which is not even necessary because they can just make the monsters a little bit easier so you don’t need the + x gear (in this case ascended).

Except that the skill grind made more of an effect on power creep than this gear grind does, and power creep is one of the big bug bears of gear grind systems. The PvE content under skill grind got laughably easy, even with 3 heroes and 4 henchmen.

Meaningful is a funny word. A new skill that’s so powerful you have to keep it on your skill bar or be at a disadvantage isn’t better than a few stats that don’t add up to much. To me, ascended gear is far more easily ignored.

Are you serious?
First: You are talking about PvE-only skills.
Second: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/%22Save_Yourselves!%22 Grinding it from rank 0 to rank 12 = 4s to 6s. OMG crazyness, you clearly HAVE TO USE this kind of OP skills and grind for them.
Third: There were SO MANY skills that those you’re pointing out were not necessarly the best ones, although I do not deny they were very popular, but with so many choices you could have avoided the “pseudo-grind” if you were smart enough.
Think at the first invincimonk, was there a grind to be a 55hp? No, the guy who came out with that idea was just thinking outside the box.
In gw1 with creativity you could overcome any trouble.
In gw2 the build system is (still) too limited, the equip system make sense just for the legendaries (thanks to the switch), and more importantly, while you wear exo even if you’re smart you can’t be more proficient than another smart guy who is equipped with an ascended set.

Erick Alastor.3917:

Vayne.8563:

Sirendor.1394:

Vayne.8563:

Gobhoblin.7582:

Vayne.8563:

The funny bit is, you did have to grind to get the most power out of your skills in Guild Wars 1. They’ve changed it more recently after Guild Wars 2 was released, presumably because most people no longer play Guild Wars 1 to play Guild Wars 1. They play it to get cool stuff for Guild Wars 2.

But yeah, there was a ton of grind. People forget.

Ok – see the winky face on my post? On my planet, that usually means someone is joking. Calm down.

On the subject of grinding in GW1, maybe I am mis-remembering, but wasn’t all the grind cosmetic? Sure, they introduced the EotN titles that gave you a damage boost against certain beasties – but if I remember rightly they changed that after a massive outcry from the community?

Again, I’m probably looking back with rose-tinted specs, but I don’t remember a GW1 grind that wasn’t cosmetic or title related…no performance benefit, just pure kitten.

…which is why I loved the game. I have no strong ragey feelings about the grind for gear in GW2, other than a profound sense of disappointment.

Guild Wars 1 had skill grind. Every time a new product game out, there were new skills to acquire. Take the skill Save Yourselves. A perfectly innocuous skill, until you realized that your paragon imbagon build was completely dependent upon it and that you couldn’t get into a DOA group if it wasn’t high enough.

That was a Luxon/Kurzick skill which had 12 ranks. Look up FFF in the Guild Wars 1 wiki for instructions on how to fast faction farm. People farmed those points forever, to get skills like that up.

The necromancer skill necrosis from NF was also like that. You want that skill more powerful you have to grind Sunspear points. Technobabble, pain inverter, the sin skill which the permasin build depended on, the norn skill ursan, which people wanted you to have rank 8 or higher in their norn title track.

It’s the same thing here. Do you NEED ascended gear to play this game? No. You don’t. And those skills were so kitten powerful they changed the balance of PvE completely. I mean a lot. Far more than ascended gear will affect this game.

But that was okay because that was skill grind, not gear grind.

That’s the difference. Skill grind > Gear grind. Skill grind is something meaningful, unlocking new skills the more you play and consequently allowing you to play in a more diverse and exciting way, developing your own new strategies etc.

Gear grind on the contrary means that you get a new set with your current stats + x, not really making any changes, except that you do more damage according to the stats, which is not even necessary because they can just make the monsters a little bit easier so you don’t need the + x gear (in this case ascended).

Except that the skill grind made more of an effect on power creep than this gear grind does, and power creep is one of the big bug bears of gear grind systems. The PvE content under skill grind got laughably easy, even with 3 heroes and 4 henchmen.

Meaningful is a funny word. A new skill that’s so powerful you have to keep it on your skill bar or be at a disadvantage isn’t better than a few stats that don’t add up to much. To me, ascended gear is far more easily ignored.

Are you serious?
First: You are talking about PvE-only skills.
Second: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/%22Save_Yourselves!%22 Grinding it from rank 0 to rank 12 = 4s to 6s. OMG crazyness, you clearly HAVE TO USE this kind of OP skills and grind for them.
Third: There were SO MANY skills that those you’re pointing out were not necessarly the best ones, although I do not deny they were very popular, but with so many choices you could have avoided the “pseudo-grind” if you were smart enough.
Think at the first invincimonk, was there a grind to be a 55hp? No, the guy who came out with that idea was just thinking outside the box.
In gw1 with creativity you could overcome any trouble.
In gw2 the build system is (still) too limited, the equip system make sense just for the legendaries (thanks to the switch), and more importantly, while you wear exo even if you’re smart you can’t be more proficient than another smart guy who is equipped with an ascended set.

Exactly these skills were only useable in PvE, so they made 0% impact in PvP, while ascended are useable in PvP. As Erick points out the progression in Guild Wars 1 came through creating your own builds and using them in your own way to win. That is something different completely from P2W-gear like Ascended.

If you hold someone’s feet to the fire for everything they say, the next thing you know they don’t say anything.

One thing I think is missing from all these critiques of what they said is that people’s viewpoint change. I think ANet originally planned to have exotics be the top level gear and they changed their minds to be more responsive to the desires of the community.

Now, IMO, the smart thing to do was to come out and say something like – we planned X, you’ve asked for Y, so we are providing Y. Instead of saying things Y was planned for the start or Y isn’t Y because legendaries are still BiS.

But just because they aren’t the best at communicating, doesn’t mean we should say they lied. They changed their minds. If you want them to keep talking to us (or start again) then we need to collectively relax. Not everything they believe now is the same as what they believed then. It doesn’t mean they lied.

TooBz.3065:

If you hold someone’s feet to the fire for everything they say, the next thing you know they don’t say anything.

One thing I think is missing from all these critiques of what they said is that people’s viewpoint change. I think ANet originally planned to have exotics be the top level gear and they changed their minds to be more responsive to the desires of the community.

Now, IMO, the smart thing to do was to come out and say something like – we planned X, you’ve asked for Y, so we are providing Y. Instead of saying things Y was planned for the start or Y isn’t Y because legendaries are still BiS.

But just because they aren’t the best at communicating, doesn’t mean we should say they lied. They changed their minds. If you want them to keep talking to us (or start again) then we need to collectively relax. Not everything they believe now is the same as what they believed then. It doesn’t mean they lied.

It’s a two-way street, though. And at this point, I think someone from ArenaNet actually needs to open that dialogue, and come across as trying to shoot straight and be upfront. ArenaNet’s got an awful lot of egg on it’s face – I think some communication in good faith would go a very long way with the more reasonable folks around here…

A lot of people on this thread needs to think if they actually want to play the MMO genre in general, not just GW2. The same people who are acting like ANet is bringing out WoW gear grind where you need to get best in slot gear pre-raid, then raid multiple times per week, just to get DKP, with the chance that said item will drop, if you have the DKP to even get it, when in fact it may not drop period. MMO’s are grinds if you hadn’t found that out before GW2 you have now and there are way more bothersome issues GW2 has then this. I refuse to believe people who complain about grind in GW2 have played ANY other MMO.

Vayne.8563:

stale.9785:

Accept it – they lied, again. There was a dramatic change in Anet’s structure right around release (2 of the 3 founders left, almost the entire dev team quit/were fired, and now we have about 6 people of the original team left.)

The people in charge now are about making money from everything – and we’re getting what you’d expect from it. Content that requires 24/7 game play, or cracking open your wallet.

It’s disappointing, and vaguely upsetting, but frankly, what I’ve come to expect from the “new” Anet.

Lie implies intent. What evidence do you have that when Anet devs made these quotes they didn’t think them true.

I always agree with you here. There is absolutely no reason to believe that they intended to break their promises and therefore I don’t believe they lied.

All they did was break their promise and that is why you see an outrage that is really unabated since last November. There are usually 4-5 threads on the main page (general) about VP and gear grind at any time. I don’t anticipate that this will lessen any over time. Horizontal progression is an idea whose time has come and you can read Colin’s last blog post to see that even Anet seems to have religion on this.

However, the one thing they haven’t done is to state that they deviated from their manifesto, saw their error, and are now course correcting by removing VP. The threads will continue until then fueled by the pain of the gear grind. I was one of those who didn’t play GW1. I came to GW2 from WoW to escape the gear grind (in part). I generally love irony, but haven’t been laughing much over this.

Sirendor.1394:

Erick Alastor.3917:

Vayne.8563:

Sirendor.1394:

Vayne.8563:

Gobhoblin.7582:

Vayne.8563:

The funny bit is, you did have to grind to get the most power out of your skills in Guild Wars 1. They’ve changed it more recently after Guild Wars 2 was released, presumably because most people no longer play Guild Wars 1 to play Guild Wars 1. They play it to get cool stuff for Guild Wars 2.

But yeah, there was a ton of grind. People forget.

Ok – see the winky face on my post? On my planet, that usually means someone is joking. Calm down.

snip

…which is why I loved the game. I have no strong ragey feelings about the grind for gear in GW2, other than a profound sense of disappointment.

Guild Wars 1 had skill grind. Every time a new product game out, there were new skills to acquire. Take the skill Save Yourselves. A perfectly innocuous skill, until you realized that your paragon imbagon build was completely dependent upon it and that you couldn’t get into a DOA group if it wasn’t high enough.

That was a Luxon/Kurzick skill which had 12 ranks. Look up FFF in the Guild Wars 1 wiki for instructions on how to fast faction farm. People farmed those points forever, to get skills like that up.

The necromancer skill necrosis from NF was also like that. You want that skill more powerful you have to grind Sunspear points. Technobabble, pain inverter, the sin skill which the permasin build depended on, the norn skill ursan, which people wanted you to have rank 8 or higher in their norn title track.

It’s the same thing here. Do you NEED ascended gear to play this game? No. You don’t. And those skills were so kitten powerful they changed the balance of PvE completely. I mean a lot. Far more than ascended gear will affect this game.

But that was okay because that was skill grind, not gear grind.

That’s the difference. Skill grind > Gear grind. Skill grind is something meaningful, unlocking new skills the more you play and consequently allowing you to play in a more diverse and exciting way, developing your own new strategies etc.

Gear grind on the contrary means that you get a new set with your current stats + x, not really making any changes, except that you do more damage according to the stats, which is not even necessary because they can just make the monsters a little bit easier so you don’t need the + x gear (in this case ascended).

Except that the skill grind made more of an effect on power creep than this gear grind does, and power creep is one of the big bug bears of gear grind systems. The PvE content under skill grind got laughably easy, even with 3 heroes and 4 henchmen.

Meaningful is a funny word. A new skill that’s so powerful you have to keep it on your skill bar or be at a disadvantage isn’t better than a few stats that don’t add up to much. To me, ascended gear is far more easily ignored.

Are you serious?
First: You are talking about PvE-only skills.
Second: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/%22Save_Yourselves!%22 Grinding it from rank 0 to rank 12 = 4s to 6s. OMG crazyness, you clearly HAVE TO USE this kind of OP skills and grind for them.
Third: There were SO MANY skills that those you’re pointing out were not necessarly the best ones, although I do not deny they were very popular, but with so many choices you could have avoided the “pseudo-grind” if you were smart enough.
Think at the first invincimonk, was there a grind to be a 55hp? No, the guy who came out with that idea was just thinking outside the box.
In gw1 with creativity you could overcome any trouble.
In gw2 the build system is (still) too limited, the equip system make sense just for the legendaries (thanks to the switch), and more importantly, while you wear exo even if you’re smart you can’t be more proficient than another smart guy who is equipped with an ascended set.

Exactly these skills were only useable in PvE, so they made 0% impact in PvP, while ascended are useable in PvP. As Erick points out the progression in Guild Wars 1 came through creating your own builds and using them in your own way to win. That is something different completely from P2W-gear like Ascended.

Guild Wars 1 didn’t have WvW. Everything was structured PvP. You can’t compare WvW with structured PvP because it was never meant to be balanced…as per Anet. SPvP is structured PvP and designed to put everyone on even footing. WvW wasn’t designed for that, whether you want it to be or not.

Firefly.5982:

Am I the only one who has long given up on ever going to the dragon fights anyway? Only lag, waste of time, no decent drops and the same boring fight over and over again…doesn’t seem like a ridiculous amount of players needed to succeed is going to do this any good XD

Did you see the new T’quatl fight that’s coming mid month?