Guild Wars 2

Wuselknusel.4082:

Behellagh.1468:

I only read the TTH article but if HoT featured what he wanted, it would be a strike against it for me. Why? Because I hate forced group content. Why? Because formal party play in GW2 has devolved into a very elitist meta. Not the content, the party. If you don’t have your own guild or regular group of friends, PUGs of this type of content quickly becomes a “you must run X in Y gear and study YouTube videos of runs so you know what to do” otherwise you won’t find teammates. That’s why I’m happy that they made Arah soloable. Otherwise you either party up with players that will cut a newbie zero slack or be forced to pay players to come with you.

You want “challenging group content” there are other games, GW2 is a game for those who want an escape from that.

Why is this meta “elitist”? I fail to see it. It is a simple fact that zerker gear is the most effective gear to use and it is also a simple fact that you can beat any content in PvE with zerker gear. This is hardly an issue with “elitism”. I’d even go as far to say that ther is no elitism in this game, otherwise I’d be an “elite” too, as would be all my guildmates. Wearing zerker gear and expecting others to run it is not elitism.

And if people can watch PewDiePie playing Happy Wheels 70 times, then they can watch one video per dungeon path to know the basic mechanics.

Or they could just create their own group with whatever requirement they deem to see fit.

Because I don’t want to buy new gear because the gear I sport in PvE is “not optimal” according to some people. I don’t want to watch YouTube videos because I want to experience the Dungeon cold the first few times through. I want to figure out my own strategies and tactics.

And isn’t optimizing yourself to run a dungeon a certain way just as lazy as pressing 1 all the time? You reduced it to a GPS series of direction rather than adapting to the situation as it unfolds. What’s more fun then, following a sequence of instructions by rote and thus beating it 100% of the time or engaging it dynamically where failure is always possible outcome but success is a thrill?

Does anet read forum posts? Because i cant believe a company would make such a huge mistake that even tho 90%of the players in the forums ask a harder gameplay, and more challenging content, and they still make the game easier…

Behellagh.1468:

I don’t want to watch YouTube videos because I want to experience the Dungeon cold the first few times through. I want to figure out my own strategies and tactics.

And isn’t optimizing yourself to run a dungeon a certain way just as lazy as pressing 1 all the time? You reduced it to a GPS series of direction rather than adapting to the situation as it unfolds. What’s more fun then, following a sequence of instructions by rote and thus beating it 100% of the time or engaging it dynamically where failure is always possible outcome but success is a thrill?

Personaly I agree with you. I do not understand what the fun is in doing hard content and following a guide, finding out how to solve it is part of the fun.

SkullProX.7083:

Does anet read forum posts? Because i cant believe a company would make such a huge mistake that even tho 90%of the players in the forums ask a harder gameplay, and more challenging content, and they still make the game easier…

Yes, they do read forum posts. Lately they haven’t been answering because they are busy with the expansion.

SkullProX.7083:

Does anet read forum posts? Because i cant believe a company would make such a huge mistake that even tho 90%of the players in the forums ask a harder gameplay, and more challenging content, and they still make the game easier…

It goes back to the notion that players who post are the minority. If they see players not returning to the game after playing the current “hard” content and failing then ANet is less likely to add “hard” content, giving that more credence than angry forum posters complaining about the lack of harder content.

Of course they might not be returning for other reasons that doesn’t relate to the content or actions of players in their party but since the game doesn’t have exit interviews, because it’s not clear when a player chooses to quit, they are forced to read the metrics entrails to divine the cause.

MauricioCezar.2673:

BrotherBelial.3094:

I’m guessing everyone who is saying game is easy is cakewalking level 50 fractals. ANet have said in the past that they will unlock higher levels. Or could it be that after close to 3 years, you can play the classes you play well? If you want to be challenged, go play some sPvP. Sure some matches you will walk them. Most you will be screaming at your monitor. The other night I was on the losing team for ten games in a row. Now if pve os your bag, you can always make things harder for your self by using white gear. It’s not ANet’s fault you are good at playing there game. And that’s the thing with an MMO, you have to make them to everyone can play them so you get the biggest group of people playing it. It is impossible to keep everyone happy.

Unless you are trying personal history, with a lv 20 character, totally equipped with white armor/weapons, and still can beat the content offered autoattacking.

1..1…1…1..11…1..1.1.1…..1….1….1.

(Hope I’ve been clear on what I am talking about now, and if you doubt on what I am talking about , check out WP video).

So never had to use a heal skill? Dodge or anything else? Just stand there and auto attack everything down? Sorry but I don’t believe a word of it.

BrotherBelial.3094:

So never had to use a heal skill? Dodge or anything else? Just stand there and auto attack everything down? Sorry but I don’t believe a word of it.

Ah, sorry.

I also used wasd to move, and maybe i need to use 6 to heal sometimes(Hardcore mode, of course). That’s too hard too, maybe anet should consider putting away healing button, and trade it with auto regeneration.

/sarcasm

About dodge, yeah can do easily without dodge. Go there, try yourself – no need to believe in me when you can actually try out by yourself.

Ohh, the old ‘filthy casuals vs. l33t h@rdc0r3z’ debate.

Here’s the thing: you’re all making the wrong arguments.

Casuals: The thread starter seriously mislabeled his views, and has been vainly trying to correct himself ever since he discovered that he was insulting casual players by (what he claims to be) mistake. What he wants, and what all the “h@rdc0r3z” want, is for content to be more engaging, regardless of how much time you have to devote to it. That’s not a bad desire of itself; we could all do with the game pepping up a bit. That said, engaging does not and should not necessarily mean difficult. Many people equate challenge with difficulty, and difficulty with hardcoreness, and hardcoreness with inaccessibility, but it doesn’t have to be this way.

The game gives us all tons of different tools, but for the most part, in PvE they’re not even useful. Boon strips/steals, for example, have basically no place in general PvE. Enemies don’t use boons, so any character that has boon strips, steals or corrupts doesn’t even really get a chance to use those tools to their benefit. PvE enemies rarely apply real condition pressure so cleanses are of limited utility, and they almost never attack more than once every three or four seconds, so things like (old) Confusion or Retaliation are garbage. When they do attack they either deal pitiful damage which is safe to completely ignore, or they deal so much damage that a failed block/dodge/aegis/blind is disastrous. That damage model means defensive stats are also a solution with no problem – a tool that has no use.

What ‘hardcores’ want is a reason to use the tools at their disposal. They want to be able to strip/steal/corrupt boons on their enemies, to put enemies that rely on those boons off their balance. They want to be able to take Knight’s gear and have that extra toughness mean something. They want to be hit with enough conditions to make cleanses useful, thus denying their enemies damage from those conditions. They want enemies to attack fast enough that they can then punish those enemies with Retal or Confuse. They want to be able to do all these cool things Guild Wars 2 tells them they can totally do, but then never gives them any real opportunity to actually do.

That’s where the ‘autoattack to victory’ complaints come in. They’re not accusing the rest of us of being stupid, or lazy, or anything else – or at least that’s not the original intent. They just want reasons to do all the things the GW2 combat system lets them do, and “just for giggles” is really not a reason.

Now. On the other side of the spectrum.

[Cont…]

(EXCUSE ME FOR HAVING AN OPINION LONGER THAN THREE WORDS, FORUM DX<)

Hardcores: Stop it. You guys keep making the same mistake over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and OVER, and it always leads to exactly this sort of three-page buttfest. And that mistake is phrasing your argument in some form or other of the following statement:

“I want the developers to replace casual content in this game with hardcore content!”

STOP. THAT. It gets you in trouble every single freaking time. Yes, you then proceed to back off and state that you’re actually just looking for isolated, optional zones which are significantly harder than the rest of the game and what’s wrong with that?, but by that point it’s too late. There are a huge range of players in Guild Wars 2, and a very large percentage of them find the game challenging enough right now. It doesn’t help when you then demand that the isolated, ‘optional’ challenging content you want offer significantly more rewards than anything else. Saying things like “you don’t need to do this thing that only 5% of the population is expected to be able to complete, but which gives 15x the rewards of anything else you can do in the game!” is horse manure and you bloody well know it.

If you truly want challenge for its own sake? Places like Aetherpath exist which involve much more difficulty than the usual stuff. Nobody does it because it’s not as rewarding on a gold/hour basis as regular runs. Frankly, the moment you bring up ‘gold/hour’ in a discussion on challenging content, you’ve already lost the discussion.

Everyone should be rewarded for their time in GW2. Casual players who can only devote a couple-odd hours a week to the game would like those couple-odd hours a week to count the same as a couple-odd hours the hardcores spend. Yes, obviously someone who spends twenty hours in the game per week rather than two is going to earn ten times the overall rewards. Nobody argues that, that is perfectly fair. What they don’t want, and what you guys keep pushing for, is for that twenty-hour guy to have access to content that only he can do – like RAIDZ that require an hour’s prep, then six hours to do, and are thus completely out of the realm of the time-limited casual player – which gives him a hundred times the reward of the two-hour guy.

You’re asking for them to remove the game’s accessibility, to make it an exclusive clubhouse where only folks who can meet or exceed a minimum time investment get to play. That is incredibly disrespectful of the man who spends two hours a week in the game because he has other calls on his time, and you’re never going to be able to suggest it without a fight.

So stop froggin’ trying.

SkullProX.7083:

Does anet read forum posts? Because i cant believe a company would make such a huge mistake that even tho 90%of the players in the forums ask a harder gameplay, and more challenging content, and they still make the game easier…

It was when they introduced revamped Teq, people QQ’ed about it being too hard, they nerfed the hp a bit. They did….something to the dungeons in the same matter, people QQ’ed. Problem is Anet us probably too focused on the making the game “casual” and “content for everyone to enjoy.” Kinda worries me what’s this “CGC” they’re keeping in the dark.

@DevilLordLaser – Just adding my confirmation, that indeedly never was my intention to insulte casual players, since I am pretty casual myself too.

On a second point, I just gave up on the whole debate of hardcore going on, because it implies nothing on my concern explained on topic. The concern explained, is the same the one largely discussed into the NPE feedback : Anet is bringing the original content down to dumb levels of easyness ( < Not existent word probably).

I Find it insulting that a T rated game (13+) put the content on a EC (Early Childhood) level of gameplay. For serious, you can’t die on tutorial instance. For serious… you.. can’t.. die. The following steps of personal story aren’t too different.

MauricioCezar.2673:

BrotherBelial.3094:

So never had to use a heal skill? Dodge or anything else? Just stand there and auto attack everything down? Sorry but I don’t believe a word of it.

Ah, sorry.

I also used wasd to move, and maybe i need to use 6 to heal sometimes(Hardcore mode, of course). That’s too hard too, maybe anet should consider putting away healing button, and trade it with auto regeneration.

/sarcasm

About dodge, yeah can do easily without dodge. Go there, try yourself – no need to believe in me when you can actually try out by yourself.

I would but I only do the PS as an 80. As I do it for the skins you cant get any other way, and for the bags/gem store items. The problem with the PS now is that they moved it I. To blocks of 10 levels. So when you are doing the level 40 part of the story, you would have started it at around level 30 before the change. So when you start you are 10 levels higher than you where intended to be. When the game launched the PS was solid. Really hard for some races, and some steps where almost impossible at the recommended level, then the difficulty got adjusted. And it was just right. Then the trait change happened and they had to re adjust the game for that. And now we have the change again, and its probably not been adjusted, and not to mention broken traits. So untill this is all sorted out, the game will be easy mode. But then the PS is kind of a tutorial for the game.

DevilLordLaser.8619:

Bible of Text

I actually agree with a surprising amount of what you said, which is odd for me, because you state a lot of your opinions as if they were facts, which I usually can’t tolerate.

Regardless, I think you have a pretty good grasp of what the issue and its underlying components are. I think you have one thing a bit wrong though.

The extent of difficulty and commitment that you think most of the proponents of harder content want, is pretty extravagant.

Idk if you were just using numbers for an example or what, but myself personally, I’ve been playing MMOs for 9-10 years now, (my very 1st being the original Guild Wars). I have never ever, not even once raided, been part of a raiding guild or other scenarios that demand ridiculous amounts of preparation, explanation and participation. It’s way too much of a commitment for me. And at the same time I want harder content in GW2, for a lot of the reasons you’ve stated.

What’s my point here? I think you are dealing in extremes as to what ppl actually want. I don’t consider myself hardcore, but at the same time I don’t want dungeons where I don’t really understand the mechanics of the instance, or even all of my abilities, but I can still do fine because I can just dps down the hunk of meat and telegraphs that is a majority of this game’s bosses. There is a middle ground of player I think you are confusing for ‘h@rdkorE’, and yeah we just want some diversity in what the game offers, instead of what they’ve been doing so far which seems to be solely catering for only one end of the spectrum.

Sampling Bias

SkullProX.7083:

Does anet read forum posts? Because i cant believe a company would make such a huge mistake that even tho 90%of the players in the forums ask a harder gameplay, and more challenging content, and they still make the game easier…

90% of players in the forums aren’t 90% of players. It’s likely less than half of all players have ever even logged in to the forums, let alone posted in them.

What matters most to the developers is what happens in the game itself, and for that, they have various forms of monitoring and data mining tools available to them. They gather statistics about practically everything: from the economy to login rates to trait usage to what monsters kill players the most.

So it’s not a mistake. Although they do keep an eye on the forums, they also use actual data from the game to inform their design decisions, and hard data carries more weight than soft opinions.

ArenaNet Sees All™

i propose for people that want an easier game, there’s a “gawd” mode on installing the game, that gives them everything in the game in one big bundle that’s account bound. “The Big loot Bag” that way they can be happy, and the rest of the world can play normally and gain meaningful loot. just paint their loot green.

Ricky.4706:

i propose for people that want an easier game, there’s a “gawd” mode on installing the game, that gives them everything in the game in one big bundle that’s account bound. “The Big loot Bag” that way they can be happy, and the rest of the world can play normally and gain meaningful loot. just paint their loot green.

I’m sure the imaginary straw men you made up for this post would love something like that!

Don’t forget to give them something nice for Wintersday.

My opinion: some parts of the game must be easy or for casual players, whereas other parts should more challenging (e.g. some temples, bosses, etc.). However, for those harder parts, the rewards need to be increased since the current ones don´t worth the extra effort.

The problem with this game is not easy vs difficult content, it’s rewards.

I have friends who want to get a legendary. Even though they enjoy dungeons with friends, if they are going for a legendary they prefer to just farm sw over and over and over and over again instead of doing dungeons. The reason ofc is that dungeons cannot be repeated for rewards bc….anet and they require having a 5 man group. The reward to challenge in this game is horrible. SW should not give more gold than dungeons.

Same goes for the difference in dungeons. Most people will stay away from arah even though it isn’t that hard, especially with lupi cheese. In fact its the most profitable dungeon if you have a good group. However, it’s much easier and reliable to make three gold from doing all of AC than from doing one path of arah and since arah weapons and armor are kind of kitten now, no one cares for that reward either.

And ofc the fractal issue that the hardest pve content in this game (which again isn’t that hard) is rewarded so poorly both by rng rewards and gold rewards that no one does it except for people who find it fun or the ones who are new to it and think they will get a nice skin (LOLOLOL).

I understand that there are some people out there who will never do hard content because they like rewards over effort. They find instant satisfaction to the best thing ever. But if anet makes content that is challenging and fun that rewards players more than other content in this game I think even casuals will do it. It’s why i see extreme casuals trying out fractals and dungeons (and ofc giving up quickly) because they want to see what the reward is like. And even though they may hate the challenge, if the reward is good enough they will do it.

Nyx.7342:

The problem with this game is not easy vs difficult content, it’s rewards.
…

And how is trying to force players outside their comfort zone, by ensuring that the only meaningful rewards or progression in the game is gated behind things they hate doing, a positive thing for the game?

if they hate the challenge, they shouldn’t be forced to do it. Trying to get them to do it anyways isn’t going to ‘show them the light(!!)’ and suddenly make them enjoy challenge, it’s going to make them leave the game because you’re removing their ability to play as they like and enjoy the game at their own pace, in their own manner.

By all means, have unique things for your challenging content. Titles, a trophy skin, various “I did it!” bits of fluff – but if a casual player does their piece of content and gets fifty silver for it, then you do your piece of content and get fifty gold for it, that’s in no way acceptable.

Nyx.7342:

The problem with this game is not easy vs difficult content, it’s rewards.

Personally, I don’t care so much about rewards as much as being satisfied in putting forward the effort to accomplish something significant. There are also existing avenues in the game to great rewards. An example of this is World Bosses, they can give some of the best loot in the game, despite being some of the most uninspired encounters also. So no, I disagree that that is the apex issue

Wuselknusel.4082:

I’m not ok with the game getting more casualized, but ANet wont change their mind on this one.

i consider myself a casual player, but i don’t like content that you beat the first time, and every time after that.

players that always want to succeed in the first try are not casuals, they are just lazy and don’t play to be thrilled. They go to the movies to watch a watered down romantic comedy, and they play gw2 to hit the auto attack and always, ALWAYS, get their crappy rewards.

And yes, anet has made it their goal to appeal to that sort of player. The one that thinks dungeons are too hard, so they stopped caring about dungeons.

i think this got in the adn of anet developers too, to the point they don’t know how to develope challeging group content anymore. For example, look at the triple trouble. what’s the difficult part of that encounter? (getting enough people on team speak and coordinating the exact moment where you cut the heads) the fight certainly isn’t challenging.

ls season 2 was a nice change of pace, introducing some challenging mechanics (specially for the achievements) but, you know, that’s not group content….

Kormeg.2469:

Nyx.7342:

The problem with this game is not easy vs difficult content, it’s rewards.

Personally, I don’t care so much about rewards as much as being satisfied in putting forward the effort to accomplish something significant. There are also existing avenues in the game to great rewards. An example of this is World Bosses, they can give some of the best loot in the game, despite being some of the most uninspired encounters also. So no, I disagree that that is the apex issue

It may not be the apex of the issue but it’s certainly a major point in it.

Doing something for the challenge at the moment is a significant blow to your GPH for next to no unique rewards.

I think most of us can agree (I would say I think we can all agree, but I know full well someone will disagree) that the Silverwastes is in hindsight a poorly designed area for extended use. It single handily makes every other piece of PvE content feel less rewarding and makes doing a challenge less appealing.

I.E
Siverwastes:
- Top GPH (outside of TP playing, Gem conversion)
-Rains obby shards
-Best way to farm the pieces for bolts of damask
- wide range of guarenteed unique rewards for bandit crests
-Also gives zep keys for amberite skins
-karma for other skins
-Requires no skill at all.
-Makes no distinction for individual ability (you can’t solo a single wolf vs a player who can down 6 at once, both end up with the same reward).
-Guaranteed success

Fractal 50:
-No Guaranteed reward out side of 1.5g~
-Very small pool of unique rewards for fractal currency
-High skill required
-not guaranteed success

From a purely game-play perspective it makes next to no sense to do an hour of fractals vs an hour of Silver-wastes farming. Fun alone doesn’t motivate for extended periods of time

MauricioCezar.2673:

So, 2 things resume what I am not okay with :

• http://www.tentonhammer.com/columns/persistent-worlds/persistent-worlds-whats-biggest-issue-facing-guild-wars-2

• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJUMino2KDA

Each of the articles talk in a different way, about the same topic, and both bring up the question: Are you okay with this? Are you okay with the game being more and more “Easy” and less challenging (aka – Auto Attack still makes you beat content easily).

I decided to show my personnal awser here, at anet own forum, so maaaybe, it gets considered as feedback : NO, I am not okay with that.

I really want to roll a new PC when HoT arrive to play trough all the PS again, and face HoT into a different perspective, but after watching how poor the PS and content are in the game actually, I am inclined to agree with what those articles talks about, gw2 is actually way too easy, and becmoing even boring.

PS: Don’t get me wrong, I am a vicied fan of gw2, that experienced the whole gw1 campaigns and played over 5k hours just because I love it. So, i kindly ask to this topic be received as feedback to better construction of future “Patchs”.

I love this game, i really do, but the pve for me is really something i only do when i want money or an item skin. as you say there’s no challenge. people can say wvw and pvp is repetitive, but you can’t stack in one spot and autowin an enemy zerg by auto attacking (sans eotm) without moving. i’m buying HOT for the class changes. I want to see how they’ll perform in wvw and pvp.

DevilLordLaser.8619:

Nyx.7342:

The problem with this game is not easy vs difficult content, it’s rewards.
…

And how is trying to force players outside their comfort zone, by ensuring that the only meaningful rewards or progression in the game is gated behind things they hate doing, a positive thing for the game?

if they hate the challenge, they shouldn’t be forced to do it. Trying to get them to do it anyways isn’t going to ‘show them the light(!!)’ and suddenly make them enjoy challenge, it’s going to make them leave the game because you’re removing their ability to play as they like and enjoy the game at their own pace, in their own manner.

By all means, have unique things for your challenging content. Titles, a trophy skin, various “I did it!” bits of fluff – but if a casual player does their piece of content and gets fifty silver for it, then you do your piece of content and get fifty gold for it, that’s in no way acceptable.

Did you even read what i wrote? Or did you just quickly react?

I didn’t say casual content shouldn’t be rewarding. I said it should be rewarded accordingly. I dont mind if SW rewards stay the same, i just think if they do dungeon rewards should be increased since you can’t repeat them ad infinitum and because they take more effort and skill.

Also in what way is it not acceptable? Every game works like this. You do something hard you get more than if you did something easy. It just makes sense and it increases the longevity of the game because there is actually a reason to try and get better.

Nyx.7342:

It just makes sense and it increases the longevity of the game because there is actually a reason to try and get better.

A lot of these people don’t want to get better. I had trouble wrapping my head around this too. Some of these folks want a fantasy simulator they play can after work and relax. The point you’re making is lost on them.

Behellagh.1468:

Wuselknusel.4082:

Behellagh.1468:

I only read the TTH article but if HoT featured what he wanted, it would be a strike against it for me. Why? Because I hate forced group content. Why? Because formal party play in GW2 has devolved into a very elitist meta. Not the content, the party. If you don’t have your own guild or regular group of friends, PUGs of this type of content quickly becomes a “you must run X in Y gear and study YouTube videos of runs so you know what to do” otherwise you won’t find teammates. That’s why I’m happy that they made Arah soloable. Otherwise you either party up with players that will cut a newbie zero slack or be forced to pay players to come with you.

You want “challenging group content” there are other games, GW2 is a game for those who want an escape from that.

Why is this meta “elitist”? I fail to see it. It is a simple fact that zerker gear is the most effective gear to use and it is also a simple fact that you can beat any content in PvE with zerker gear. This is hardly an issue with “elitism”. I’d even go as far to say that ther is no elitism in this game, otherwise I’d be an “elite” too, as would be all my guildmates. Wearing zerker gear and expecting others to run it is not elitism.

And if people can watch PewDiePie playing Happy Wheels 70 times, then they can watch one video per dungeon path to know the basic mechanics.

Or they could just create their own group with whatever requirement they deem to see fit.

Because I don’t want to buy new gear because the gear I sport in PvE is “not optimal” according to some people. I don’t want to watch YouTube videos because I want to experience the Dungeon cold the first few times through. I want to figure out my own strategies and tactics.

And isn’t optimizing yourself to run a dungeon a certain way just as lazy as pressing 1 all the time? You reduced it to a GPS series of direction rather than adapting to the situation as it unfolds. What’s more fun then, following a sequence of instructions by rote and thus beating it 100% of the time or engaging it dynamically where failure is always possible outcome but success is a thrill?

Here’s the catch – regardless of what you want people have a right to play with whomever they want – if most players want to be “elitists” and only play with certain people in certain gear playing in a certain way they have that right and you can’t really do anything about it.

You can’t force them to accept you the way you want to play because they have no reason to.
Want to play your way? Go ahead – find people that want to play like you do and go for it. Nobody is stopping you.

The fact that you might not find a lot of non-meta parties ( although there are many out there) could tell you that people want to play meta builds because they care about time and effectiveness.

What you want is to reinvent he wheel – that’s fine – but some of us just want to get our rewards quick.

Most content in this game stops being a “dynamic thrill” after you’ve done it 2-3 times – after that it becomes a static farm – run through a list of things in order to get your reward.

And to me that’s fun – to me getting rewards fast IS FUN and ultimately my fun is all that matters. There are others that play the game the way I do and that’s fun for us.

Personally I’m not ok with the game getting easier either. I don’t want this state of the game.
I don’t want to see level 80 people that don’t even know the basics of their class – but I don’t know if this can be helped.

I feel Anet should add more negative reinforcement – you do badly you should be “punished” for it – or at least incentivized to not do so bad anymore.

DevilLordLaser.8619:

Nyx.7342:

The problem with this game is not easy vs difficult content, it’s rewards.
…

And how is trying to force players outside their comfort zone, by ensuring that the only meaningful rewards or progression in the game is gated behind things they hate doing, a positive thing for the game?

if they hate the challenge, they shouldn’t be forced to do it. Trying to get them to do it anyways isn’t going to ‘show them the light(!!)’ and suddenly make them enjoy challenge, it’s going to make them leave the game because you’re removing their ability to play as they like and enjoy the game at their own pace, in their own manner.

By all means, have unique things for your challenging content. Titles, a trophy skin, various “I did it!” bits of fluff – but if a casual player does their piece of content and gets fifty silver for it, then you do your piece of content and get fifty gold for it, that’s in no way acceptable.

If they hate the challenge they can always Credit Card Into gems and gems into gold. Not that hard.

I still believe harder content should be more rewarding but with the recent change to Ascended gear Fractals have become a lot more profitable and worthwhile – because all the drops of ascended weapons and armor can now be made useful with minimal cost.

It isn’t insane but it’s a step in the right direction.

You should be rewarded more for doing a full run of level 50 FOTM than doing a quick AC P1 or afk-farming world boss events ( yes this is a thing – it is incredibly profitable and easy to do).

50silver vs 50 gold is amusing as a comparison but what about 3 gold vs 5 gold.

Playing better should be better rewarded. Doing things right and knowing the game should be rewarded.
If better playing was better rewarded in GW2 you would see a lot more players striving to be more than just open-world #1 skill spammers.

This comes back to the same issue I always had with GW2, why are there any levels at all? If there were no levels balancing difficulty would be a lot easier as any area or instance could be set to a know difficulty without all this levelling consideration. Players would have to unlock skills and abilities rather than grind abstract XP in some Gygaxian nightmare.

Kormeg.2469:

Nyx.7342:

It just makes sense and it increases the longevity of the game because there is actually a reason to try and get better.

A lot of these people don’t want to get better. I had trouble wrapping my head around this too. Some of these folks want a fantasy simulator they play can after work and relax. The point you’re making is lost on them.

True but im not asking the game only offer progression through challenges. Im saying its the thing its lacking the most and even though many people may not like it, many people do. Its all about having that option in there. I dont hate casuals in fact i think jps and other such things should also have increased rewards because some of them are really hard xD I just think this game needs to start catering towards more serious players as well.

Conski Deshan.2057:

Kormeg.2469:

Nyx.7342:

The problem with this game is not easy vs difficult content, it’s rewards.

Personally, I don’t care so much about rewards as much as being satisfied in putting forward the effort to accomplish something significant. There are also existing avenues in the game to great rewards. An example of this is World Bosses, they can give some of the best loot in the game, despite being some of the most uninspired encounters also. So no, I disagree that that is the apex issue

It may not be the apex of the issue but it’s certainly a major point in it.

Doing something for the challenge at the moment is a significant blow to your GPH for next to no unique rewards.

I think most of us can agree (I would say I think we can all agree, but I know full well someone will disagree) that the Silverwastes is in hindsight a poorly designed area for extended use. It single handily makes every other piece of PvE content feel less rewarding and makes doing a challenge less appealing.

I.E
Siverwastes:
- Top GPH (outside of TP playing, Gem conversion)
-Rains obby shards
-Best way to farm the pieces for bolts of damask
- wide range of guarenteed unique rewards for bandit crests
-Also gives zep keys for amberite skins
-karma for other skins
-Requires no skill at all.
-Makes no distinction for individual ability (you can’t solo a single wolf vs a player who can down 6 at once, both end up with the same reward).
-Guaranteed success

Fractal 50:
-No Guaranteed reward out side of 1.5g~
-Very small pool of unique rewards for fractal currency
-High skill required
-not guaranteed success

From a purely game-play perspective it makes next to no sense to do an hour of fractals vs an hour of Silver-wastes farming. Fun alone doesn’t motivate for extended periods of time

For me I don’t care if the braindead content is rewarding. Let the casuals have there gold. I just want the hard content to be just as rewarding but for some reason that is just the hanis of sin. Hard content is not alowed to be rewarding finacilly. Like imagine if atherpath and fotm 50 had the same profit lvl at Sw.

Shinji.2063:

For me I don’t care if the braindead content is rewarding. Let the casuals have there gold. I just want the hard content to be just as rewarding but for some reason that is just the hanis of sin. Hard content is not alowed to be rewarding finacilly. Like imagine if atherpath and fotm 50 had the same profit lvl at Sw.

To clarify: the thing that seems to be under contention is that most of the challenging-content side of the game don’t really want equivalent rewards. As you say, they don’t want an hour of running Aetherpath, an hour of Fractals 50, and an hour of Silverwastes-ing to be roughly equal in terms of payout.

The challenging content people want the challenging content to be anywhere from significantly to drastically more lucrative than the so-called ‘braindead’ content. i.e. an hour of Aetherpathing, or an hour of Fractals 50, would be worth the same general payout as anywhere from two to sixteen hours of Silverwastes-ing.

That’s a rational enough thing – it’s intuitive to players that harder things should equate to better lootz. The problem comes when players find out that either A.) they’re not actually as good as they think they are and they can’t keep up with the new, more difficult/complex content, or B.) the content is not actually as difficult or complex as they think it is and a greater percentage of players than anticipated can do it. For a lot of players, what they actually want is exclusivity - the knowledge that they’re Better Than You and are earning more awesome stuffs than you are, because they put in the time and took their licks.

To a certain extent, that sort of thing is just fine. I was, and honestly am, actually legit cheesed off that ‘PvP Reward Tracks’ are a thing, because they cheapen/diminish PvE accomplishments of any sort. A PvP player can now earn anything a PvE player can in a fraction of the time, without actually having to do the thing they’re ostensibly earning rewards for doing. You can earn an entire set of dungeon armor in an afternoon without so much as knowing where the dungeon is in the world map. It’s moose puke. So far as I’m concerned, dungeon skins should be dungeon skins, world boss loot should be world boss loot, and PvP players should have their own shinies to work towards. That way everyone has a goal, everyone has progression, and everyone can feel like they’re earning their own special stuff that not any ol’ schmuck can run around with.

That said, too much of that sort of mindset lands you where Wildstar went – struggling and desperate, because you’ve alienated the vast majority of players who are not Supah Awesomeballz enough to actually enjoy your game. If ‘casual’ content earns the player next to nothing as compared to ‘hardcore’ content, then yes, you’re essentially telling your casual players that they’re not really wanted.

You guys keep claiming that casuals are being mean and trying to deny that hard content should be rewarding, but it’s mostly because ‘the hardcores’ keep trying to take rewards away from casual content. Nobody’s really after equality, everybody wants a leg up on everyone else, and nobody’s willing to admit that the casual guy’s two hours a week should be just as lucrative for him as two hours out of the week of the hardcore guy’s twenty, all things being equal.

Now, if you’re one of those guys who has spreadsheets and rotations and other stuff to maximize g/h ratios and ensure maximum return on time investment with a bulleted, budgeted plan of action for every night’s gameplay…well, you’re going to get significantly more reward than somebody who just logs on and goes “what’m I feeling for tonight?”, yes. That’s unavoidable.

You’re also going to encounter folks like me who wonder where you keep your soul during game time when you’re clearly not using it and cannot grasp whatsoever how that sort of thing could be anything but the most incredibly tedious and infuriatingly frustrating activity one could possibly do in GW2, but then you’re rich and I’m poor so what do you care what I think, eh? :P

DevilLordLaser.8619:

You guys keep claiming that casuals are being mean and trying to deny that hard content should be rewarding, but it’s mostly because ‘the hardcores’ keep trying to take rewards away from casual content. Nobody’s really after equality, everybody wants a leg up on everyone else, and nobody’s willing to admit that the casual guy’s two hours a week should be just as lucrative for him as two hours out of the week of the hardcore guy’s twenty, all things being equal.

We’re not trying to take rewards away from other players though? The way I look at it there’s roughly 3000 skins that any player can reasonably obtain at the moment, that’s enough content to keep a “casual” player in whatever context busy for years. That allows you to then add some content for more elite/advanced players , the key word is some, I still like to do the occasional bit of brain-dead stuff but I’d like the option for more advanced play now and then. It’s not an all or nothing thing. At the moment I feel like I have to spend time in the silverwastes just to keep up in general where I’d like to be doing tougher content without falling behind.

You’re right on the not wanting equality thing, but I think that’s fine as someone else said earlier it’s a core part of MMO’s. It’s why there’s leaderboards/ rare items and achievements, the game isn’t trying for equality it’s trying for a hierarchy. It’s part of why I like MMO’s (admittedly because I know weighing up the odds I’m likely to be better off but hey). If you walk into a map with 100 players you should be able to sort them best to worst in an instant.

On the time thing I disagree, the way I see it a player capable of a difficulty 10 piece of content gets say x+200% a player only capable of difficulty 5 only gets x. Their playtime over a week doesn’t come into it. So a casual (in the time sense) would be perfectly capable of doing the higher difficulty content.

One of the underlying goals that the devs had was NOT locking significant rewards behind tough content. That’s the fundamental reason behind RNG rewards, you could get anything by doing anything.

Story rewards, LS or personal are a tad different but it rarely require organized play to get. And I’m not against a title or skin for an especially difficult event as a reward but in those cases the skin won’t likely be account bound and not something that could be farmed and sold on the TP because then it’s not a “badge” of success for that content, just another thing to convert to gold.

If you’re saying “I want a challenge” and then telling others to watch youtube videos of dungeons so they can get on your level because that’s what you do before you set foot in one to learn the most efficient route and where to stack… then no, no you don’t actually want a challenge. You want artificial difficulty like double HP or you want something you have to google a guide for and follow to the letter and a ungodly trove of treasure for doing so. If you wanted a challenge, you’d want to figure things out yourself or do it the hard way on purpose. Good lord, wasn’t anyone else born before you could just google how to beat video games on the internet?

Aerlen.5326:

If you’re saying “I want a challenge” and then telling others to watch youtube videos of dungeons so they can get on your level because that’s what you do before you set foot in one to learn the most efficient route and where to stack… then no, no you don’t actually want a challenge. You want artificial difficulty like double HP or you want something you have to google a guide for and follow to the letter and a ungodly trove of treasure for doing so. If you wanted a challenge, you’d want to figure things out yourself or do it the hard way on purpose. Good lord, wasn’t anyone else born before you could just google how to beat video games on the internet?

People do want a challenge
These days however content has three phases

1. Discovery: The content is new and fresh no one knows how to complete it so everyone is running it blind (this is the most enjoyable phase).

2. Optimisation: The content can be completed regularly now, players are discovering more effective ways of doing it, short-cuts/exploits/ glitches optimal rotations etc.

3. Farm: The content has been optimised anyone doing the content is reasonably expected to follow the most efficient route, guides and videos are now available so anyone capable (dexterity and skill wise) will be able to do it with the least amount of frustration.

Unless you’re doing the content at phase 1 or 2 people will expect you to know exactly what you’re meant to do most of the time without explanation. Unless you can find a way to prevent guides being made it’s always going to happen unfortunately.

Personally I do like going in blind but I won’t intentionally kitten myself I.E if your average joe player using a guide can do it in 30 minutes, I’m not going to spend 4 hours discovering it myself for no additional reward.

Harper.4173:

Personally I’m not ok with the game getting easier either. I don’t want this state of the game.
I don’t want to see level 80 people that don’t even know the basics of their class – but I don’t know if this can be helped.

I feel Anet should add more negative reinforcement – you do badly you should be “punished” for it – or at least incentivized to not do so bad anymore.

But that is the one of the points of “inovation” in gw2 (and what made some oldies from gw1 went away to other games)…. and no cant be helped.

For all those who want higher difficulty and more challenge why don’t you just equip white armor and weapons, leave off trinkets….you’re happy to be challenged, others are happy the way it is…….win win.

YOU HAVE THE OPTION to make the content more challenging………….is it really that you want other people to be challenged more than they are….. or do you want yourself to be challenged?

You can transmute your stuff for the same looks as spendy gear!

den aelling.7681:

For all those who want higher difficulty and more challenge why don’t you just equip white armor and weapons, leave off trinkets….you’re happy to be challenged, others are happy the way it is…….win win.

YOU HAVE THE OPTION to make the content more challenging………….is it really that you want other people to be challenged more than they are….. or do you want yourself to be challenged?

You can transmute your stuff for the same looks as spendy gear!

Not quite sure if trolling or just plain … nevermind.

den aelling.7681:

For all those who want higher difficulty and more challenge why don’t you just equip white armor and weapons, leave off trinkets….you’re happy to be challenged, others are happy the way it is…….win win.

YOU HAVE THE OPTION to make the content more challenging………….is it really that you want other people to be challenged more than they are….. or do you want yourself to be challenged?

You can transmute your stuff for the same looks as spendy gear!

…no armor in dry top/silverwates before the patch and was doing fine, was pealling potatoes w/o sharping my knife so it was a bit slower, this isnt increasing dificulty.

Remove trash mobs, and improve AI with a good algorithm that tries to predict players bynoticed when player tries to stack them in corner, bursts etc. >:}

Conski Deshan.2057:

Personally I do like going in blind but I won’t intentionally kitten myself I.E if your average joe player using a guide can do it in 30 minutes, I’m not going to spend 4 hours discovering it myself for no additional reward.

I thought the reward was conquering the challenge itself, the experience and getting better each time as you adapt your play style more and more and choose whether to challenge yourself more by imposing handicaps/limits, to play normally, or to begin cheesing it just because you can, not anything sparkly or shiny. If Average Joe has optimized it in 30 minutes to a soulless, machine-like efficiency task of pushing buttons and stacking then great for him but what’s the point other than a gold grind? That’s not a challenge at all nor is it any fun, that’s as bad as AFKing and pressing 1 to win.

Basically the game doesnt have the depth it needs to keep players around.

Depth ? I don’t think any mmo has enough depth to keep players around constantly. The longest running mmo i’ve played is around for over 7 years now (no, not wow), and believe me, that game was filled to the brim with instances, dailies and whatnot.
But at some point people just get bored of it, wether it’s sooner or later.

Most players like to play the game somewhat relaxed with some more “challenging” content that for them is playable.

I almost never do dungeons, just because i can’t be bothered to learn exactly how to run it, what path to take, where to stack might and how and all that stuff. Exploration yeh, learning something like it’s some manual, no thx.

Challenging content is for everyone different : make it to hard and the majority will give up, make it to easy, and ppl complain about a lack of difficulty. Finding the right balance there is hard to do.

I know some games that went down fast because the content (read bossfights and instances) were nearly impossible to do unless you had exceptional skills and gear.

Conski Deshan.2057:

Aerlen.5326:

If you’re saying “I want a challenge” and then telling others to watch youtube videos of dungeons so they can get on your level because that’s what you do before you set foot in one to learn the most efficient route and where to stack… then no, no you don’t actually want a challenge. You want artificial difficulty like double HP or you want something you have to google a guide for and follow to the letter and a ungodly trove of treasure for doing so. If you wanted a challenge, you’d want to figure things out yourself or do it the hard way on purpose. Good lord, wasn’t anyone else born before you could just google how to beat video games on the internet?

People do want a challenge
These days however content has three phases

1. Discovery: The content is new and fresh no one knows how to complete it so everyone is running it blind (this is the most enjoyable phase).

2. Optimisation: The content can be completed regularly now, players are discovering more effective ways of doing it, short-cuts/exploits/ glitches optimal rotations etc.

3. Farm: The content has been optimised anyone doing the content is reasonably expected to follow the most efficient route, guides and videos are now available so anyone capable (dexterity and skill wise) will be able to do it with the least amount of frustration.

Unless you’re doing the content at phase 1 or 2 people will expect you to know exactly what you’re meant to do most of the time without explanation. Unless you can find a way to prevent guides being made it’s always going to happen unfortunately.

Personally I do like going in blind but I won’t intentionally kitten myself I.E if your average joe player using a guide can do it in 30 minutes, I’m not going to spend 4 hours discovering it myself for no additional reward.

And while this is true, players also wish to go through these stages and not crib on another’s work. What may be old hat for a player doing it for the 100th time may still be new and exciting for another just starting out. Those who insist it’s only good for farming anymore so follow the guide or get out is denying the experience that they may have gone through themselves.

Don’t forget, not everyone started playing the same time or prioritized doing the content in the same order.

den aelling.7681:

For all those who want higher difficulty and more challenge why don’t you just equip white armor and weapons, leave off trinkets….you’re happy to be challenged, others are happy the way it is…….win win.

YOU HAVE THE OPTION to make the content more challenging………….is it really that you want other people to be challenged more than they are….. or do you want yourself to be challenged?

You can transmute your stuff for the same looks as spendy gear!

do you think people havent done this before? the PvE content in gw2 is a joke and everyone smart enough to google a guide for their class and understand simple logic will be able to breeze through the content or even solo it.

NoTrigger.8396:

den aelling.7681:

For all those who want higher difficulty and more challenge why don’t you just equip white armor and weapons, leave off trinkets….you’re happy to be challenged, others are happy the way it is…….win win.

YOU HAVE THE OPTION to make the content more challenging………….is it really that you want other people to be challenged more than they are….. or do you want yourself to be challenged?

You can transmute your stuff for the same looks as spendy gear!

do you think people havent done this before? the PvE content in gw2 is a joke and everyone smart enough to google a guide for their class and understand simple logic will be able to breeze through the content or even solo it.

Also something people dont get is that challenging content doesn’t mean it takes forever. Doing a dungeon in all white gear won’t make it that much harder, it’ll just make it take longer, as prooven by all the naked dungeon runs.

Fun challenging content needs to be designed by devs. This game has very little and wearing white gear won’t make content fun or challenging. I mean at this point even soloing things is getting really boring….

Well doing the same dungeon every day for nearly three years would do that to anybody.

NoTrigger.8396:

den aelling.7681:

For all those who want higher difficulty and more challenge why don’t you just equip white armor and weapons, leave off trinkets….you’re happy to be challenged, others are happy the way it is…….win win.

YOU HAVE THE OPTION to make the content more challenging………….is it really that you want other people to be challenged more than they are….. or do you want yourself to be challenged?

You can transmute your stuff for the same looks as spendy gear!

do you think people havent done this before? the PvE content in gw2 is a joke and everyone smart enough to google a guide for their class and understand simple logic will be able to breeze through the content or even solo it.

Everyone is “smart enough” to google a guide for their class. Really?

So those who don’t do it aren’t smart enough? Because plenty of people don’t do it. I don’t do it. I prefer to make my own build, thanks very much. And there are plenty of players who don’t even realize going online and getting builds is a thing. Nothing to do with “smart enough”. Has to do with exposure to the genre. Has to do with commitment to the game.

Plenty of people log in and kill stuff and never ever look up a build. Not because they’re not smart enough. Because it’s either not on their radar or they want to do it themselves.

Vayne.8563:

NoTrigger.8396:

den aelling.7681:

For all those who want higher difficulty and more challenge why don’t you just equip white armor and weapons, leave off trinkets….you’re happy to be challenged, others are happy the way it is…….win win.

YOU HAVE THE OPTION to make the content more challenging………….is it really that you want other people to be challenged more than they are….. or do you want yourself to be challenged?

You can transmute your stuff for the same looks as spendy gear!

do you think people havent done this before? the PvE content in gw2 is a joke and everyone smart enough to google a guide for their class and understand simple logic will be able to breeze through the content or even solo it.

Everyone is “smart enough” to google a guide for their class. Really?

So those who don’t do it aren’t smart enough? Because plenty of people don’t do it. I don’t do it. I prefer to make my own build, thanks very much. And there are plenty of players who don’t even realize going online and getting builds is a thing. Nothing to do with “smart enough”. Has to do with exposure to the genre. Has to do with commitment to the game.

Plenty of people log in and kill stuff and never ever look up a build. Not because they’re not smart enough. Because it’s either not on their radar or they want to do it themselves.

i like how you think everything is an insult. i was just stating the fact that everyone who is smart enough to google a guide and understand simple logic will be able to breeze through the content and even solo it.

that has absolutely nothing to do with “on my radar”. its just a fact.

NoTrigger.8396:

Vayne.8563:

NoTrigger.8396:

den aelling.7681:

For all those who want higher difficulty and more challenge why don’t you just equip white armor and weapons, leave off trinkets….you’re happy to be challenged, others are happy the way it is…….win win.

YOU HAVE THE OPTION to make the content more challenging………….is it really that you want other people to be challenged more than they are….. or do you want yourself to be challenged?

You can transmute your stuff for the same looks as spendy gear!

do you think people havent done this before? the PvE content in gw2 is a joke and everyone smart enough to google a guide for their class and understand simple logic will be able to breeze through the content or even solo it.

Everyone is “smart enough” to google a guide for their class. Really?

So those who don’t do it aren’t smart enough? Because plenty of people don’t do it. I don’t do it. I prefer to make my own build, thanks very much. And there are plenty of players who don’t even realize going online and getting builds is a thing. Nothing to do with “smart enough”. Has to do with exposure to the genre. Has to do with commitment to the game.

Plenty of people log in and kill stuff and never ever look up a build. Not because they’re not smart enough. Because it’s either not on their radar or they want to do it themselves.

i like how you think everything is an insult. i was just stating the fact that everyone who is smart enough to google a guide and understand simple logic will be able to breeze through the content and even solo it.

that has absolutely nothing to do with “on my radar”. its just a fact.

I disagree with the statement for a lot of reasons. Aside from the fact that many people people who are smart enough to look up a guide and a build don’t all have the same hand-eye coordination, or the same experience…you just make everything sound so cut and dried, when that’s not the case.

People have all different levels of experience, all different types of computers, all different internet connections, not to mention just levels of comfort with different types of content.

You can do it. Maybe most people of your generation can even do it. But not everyone can. At least, I don’t think that’s the case.

Well yeah, everyone playing is smart enough to know how to use Google to get a guide but that line did come off a bit salty so I see why Vayne took it that way.

But everyone can’t breeze through all content. I have reflex and depth perception issues so I didn’t breeze through LS season 2, I don’t breeze through JPs, and anything that requires pinpoint movement is a no-go. Oh, but I can listen, follow instructions, solve logic problems, use strategy, and Google if I have to. I’ve also improved greatly since n00b me joined in 2012. I still don’t see the need to do spreadsheets and min/max to death but, well, I’m not MLG.

Aerlen.5326:

Well yeah, everyone playing is smart enough to know how to use Google to get a guide but that line did come off a bit salty so I see why Vayne took it that way.

But everyone can’t breeze through all content. I have reflex and depth perception issues so I didn’t breeze through LS season 2, I don’t breeze through JPs, and anything that requires pinpoint movement is a no-go. Oh, but I can listen, follow instructions, solve logic problems, use strategy, and Google if I have to. I’ve also improved greatly since n00b me joined in 2012. I still don’t see the need to do spreadsheets and min/max to death but, well, I’m not MLG.

im pretty sure if you try enough you can.
thats basically the meaning behind my statement.