Guild Wars 2

It originated on release date. It’s not like this train of thought is new. :p

People are always going to complain about “no endgame”, because (for starters) GW2 isn’t a traditional MMO in a lot of ways. Also, the discussion on what constitutes “endgame” itself is HIGHLY debatable. There are tons of “standard” MMO’s where the player base still complains about lack of endgame.

You’re always going to have people complaining like this, because you’re always going to have people that want something better or expect something else. Sadly, people just don’t know how to find a game that suits their tastes. They’d rather have a game they’re familiar with changed and shoehorned into a model they think is “correct” for what they want.

Zodiaci.3218:

a new set of dungeons

WHERE?

Zodiaci.3218:

I’d sincerely like to know where this rumor originated. No endgame? Is a new story campaign, giant map (and completion), crafting, a new set of dungeons, obtaining legendary weapons, and 3 new areas of the map opening up just not enough for you?
Really, where did this originate?

If you’re sitting around in Lion’s Arch and have run out of things to do then there isn’t enough endgame for you. Different people want different things from GW2 so it’s pretty much a personal decision. If there was more content being released through the LS then of course more people would stay with the game longer.

Some MMOs add raids as the ultimate end game content, so difficult that players don’t get to the finish it before the next release. Raiders still only compose a minority of the MMO population though and non-raiders can exhaust their end game options quite quickly.

God no, no raids please. Relying on 4 other people, rather than 9 or 24 is much more preferable to me personally. WvW, tPvP and high-level fractals are what I call end-game. Add to that, achievements, ascended gear sets, legendaries, guild progression and you’ve got enough end-game. Not to mention Living Story episodes coming out in reasonable periods of time, and the above mentioned new maps and well, seriously…

well strictly speaking Arenanet’s message was never there i no endgame rather, end game starts at level 1. The idea isnt there is nothing to do once you get to max level, the idea is what you do at max level isnt any different then what you do in the levels leading up to that. instead of having 2 games, one game for leveling up and one game for when you’re max level, you got one unified game which personally I find was a brilliant concept.

Zodiaci.3218:

I’d sincerely like to know where this rumor originated. No endgame? Is a new story campaign, giant map (and completion), crafting, a new set of dungeons, obtaining legendary weapons, and 3 new areas of the map opening up just not enough for you?
Really, where did this originate?

Theres no raid gear treadmill at max level and everyone knows that is THE endgame.

Yeah, think /sarcasm is in order.

Zodiaci.3218:

I’d sincerely like to know where this rumor originated. No endgame? Is a new story campaign, giant map (and completion), crafting, a new set of dungeons, obtaining legendary weapons, and 3 new areas of the map opening up just not enough for you?
Really, where did this originate?

New story campaign? – ?

Giant map? – Are you implying you’re still running around aimlessly doing same events ever since Dry Top was released few months ago? Kudos to you.

Completion? – 2013 January 100% world.

Crafting? – All 8 to 400 in first two-three months of GW2. 400-500 few months ago.

A new set of dungeons? – Where? Did I miss something?

Obtaining legendary? – Already obtained one year ago.

3 New areas of the map? – Dry Top?

The end game of GW2 is – Get gold, Get Gems, Get Pretty, Repeat.

MikaHR.1978:

Zodiaci.3218:

I’d sincerely like to know where this rumor originated. No endgame? Is a new story campaign, giant map (and completion), crafting, a new set of dungeons, obtaining legendary weapons, and 3 new areas of the map opening up just not enough for you?
Really, where did this originate?

Theres no raid gear treadmill at max level and everyone knows that is THE endgame.

Yeah, think /sarcasm is in order.

You can do endgame without raids or gear progression, ANET already proved that …. just not with gw2

There is endgame. If they’re rewarding though is a totally different story…

yep

Zodiaci.3218:

I’d sincerely like to know where this rumor originated. No endgame? Is a new story campaign, giant map (and completion), crafting, a new set of dungeons, obtaining legendary weapons, and 3 new areas of the map opening up just not enough for you?
Really, where did this originate?

After 2 years, there haven’t been many (enough) additions to keep ppl busy, and a huge break like this one will just enforce people’s feelings about a lack of end game.
2 years of the same dungeons and 1yr+ of the same fractals, people that run those know them by heart by now.
If there are no new long term objectives that interest the players in a new map they will have no interest in it beyond the original exploration.
WvW and sPvP has been the same stale gameplay since launch.

Zodiaci.3218:

I’d sincerely like to know where this rumor originated. No endgame? Is a new story campaign, giant map (and completion), crafting, a new set of dungeons, obtaining legendary weapons, and 3 new areas of the map opening up just not enough for you?
Really, where did this originate?

You must be new to the game? You can do everything in this game in a couple of months, not saying that isn’t worth the game it is totally worth the price. The problem comes when you see the genre of the game and see its an mmo and you compare it to others and the end game is severely lacking, take legendaries for example you can just buy gems and buy one off the tp, how is that end game? In other mmos you have to earn it! World bosses, dungeons, crafting everything can be done in a matter of months and then it just feels boring and super repetitve! Pvp? Same thing after a good while it gets boring and repetitive, the only thing I see this game has going for it is WvW and even there it’s severely lacking especially since they haven’t added anything significant to it since launch, and please don’t talk about the borderlands buff no one liked that and it is rarely used.

Nick.6972:

The end game of GW2 is – Get gold, Get Gems, Get Pretty, Repeat.

Sadly thats the right answer… a game about skins much fun…

And of course all the new skins comes via gemstore so you either put lots of cash (the prices are to high if you buy it with real cash (10€ for 1 more char slot really?!))

So the answer is grind gold to convert it into gems … much fun again…

That means the endgame is grinding for gold to convert it into gems and buy with those gems the overpriced new skins in the tradepost yaaaaaaaaay

happyface

Seems to me those who want an end game are unhappy and those who don’t want an end game are happy. It’s really fortunate that other MMOs exist with an end game you guys can play. I’m happy to play an MMO that doesn’t have the typical end game. Is it fashion? Is it exploring? Collecting? Achievements? Legendary?

You don’t need any of it. But you can do it all. That’s the kind of game I want.

Hiya OP. I’m one of those complainers. I don’t play anymore, but maybe my thoughts and the reasons I left can help you understand our frustration?

When people say there is no endgame, they’re referring to challenging endgame content.

Not living story instance you can AFK through. Not shiny new armor skins in the gemstore. Not another map filled with dynamic events being zerged to death by hordes of staff guardians spamming “1”.

Something like dungeons. Something to challenge players who have progressed beyond the simple combat abilities needed to waltz through a story instance. Something for those of us who really like the combat systems in GW2 and want to see them pushed to their limits.

You say “a set of new dungeons”. There has been exactly 1 dungeon path added in two years, and they removed another path to add it.

The players who are looking for better endgame want something like other MMOs do (including GW1!): New challenging group content, usually dungeons.

Unfortunately this game is not for those players, myself included. It’s for folks who want to grind a story instance for AP and buy gems for shinier pixels. Nothing wrong with that, everyone has their own idea of fun — it’s just that some of us are looking for more of a challenge and a way to explore the combat side of things.

Once you’ve started soloing dungeon paths, Dry Top isn’t that interesting.

Zodiaci.3218:

I’d sincerely like to know where this rumor originated. No endgame? Is a new story campaign, giant map (and completion), crafting, a new set of dungeons, obtaining legendary weapons, and 3 new areas of the map opening up just not enough for you?
Really, where did this originate?

New set of dungeons? What do you mean exactly? I’d love to see the new set of dungeons, kitten I’d love to play it for the new armours it must have included, right? Tell me the secret, please!

I think as someone else said it’s largely a personal issue, depending on how you define end game.

The way I look at it I started playing at launch, got my first character to level 80 in April 2013 and she’s remained the one I play most since then. So obviously there is plenty for me to do after levelling up.

Whether it’s “end game” content or not I don’t know, I’ve never fully understood that term in spite of people trying to explain it on here. To my mind if there are still things to do in the game then you’ve not gotten to the end.

But it seems like the issue for a lot of people is that there is very little which is only accessible when you get to level 80. There’s a lot to do, but most of it (map completion, WvW, PvP, dungeons, story, even making a legendary) can be at least started before you reach level 80. There’s nothing new and different to do once you’ve reached that point, which previously was likely to be your main goal.

But now the Living Story is all locked until you reach level 80 maybe that can be used to add end-game. Considering Season 1 included things like a new, harder, dungeon path, new Fractals, new world bosses etc. similar things could be added in Season 2.

Nick.6972:

Zodiaci.3218:

I’d sincerely like to know where this rumor originated. No endgame? Is a new story campaign, giant map (and completion), crafting, a new set of dungeons, obtaining legendary weapons, and 3 new areas of the map opening up just not enough for you?
Really, where did this originate?

New story campaign? – ?

Giant map? – Are you implying you’re still running around aimlessly doing same events ever since Dry Top was released few months ago? Kudos to you.

Completion? – 2013 January 100% world.

Crafting? – All 8 to 400 in first two-three months of GW2. 400-500 few months ago.

A new set of dungeons? – Where? Did I miss something?

Obtaining legendary? – Already obtained one year ago.

3 New areas of the map? – Dry Top?

The end game of GW2 is – Get gold, Get Gems, Get Pretty, Repeat.

Only thing left to do for you it seems is R80 in PvP if you aren’t already, R5000 in WvW, and FoTM50. If you’ve got all of those then I’d say congratulations, you beat GW2 and can move on to something else.

I don’t know where it comes from. You ahve infinite endgame in GW2 if you just set yourself goals. I guess you have no endgame left if you have all legendaries and all achievements, but that’ll take you a decade, so gl.

Dragonic Elemental.2674:

I don’t know where it comes from. You ahve infinite endgame in GW2 if you just set yourself goals. I guess you have no endgame left if you have all legendaries and all achievements, but that’ll take you a decade, so gl.

Yes, there are a lot of things that can be unlocked. The problem is that you have to grind the same content ad nauseam to do so. After the 100th time doing the same [dungeon | fractal | world boss] so you can get [enough gold | the skin you want | ascended mats ] to get another sliver of the way to your goal, it stops being fun.

And many of us left for this reason. Our pleas for more content are not because we hate the game and want to smear its name — they’re because we love the game and want to see it do well.

“Infinite endgame” in theory does not mean “interesting and engaging content” in practice.

Stiofan.6720:

Galen Grey.4709:

end game starts at level 1.

I think the whole “endgame starts at lvl 1” argument that fanboys always come up with is really just an excuse for the game having no endgame.

Slighty Evil Dev “Shouldn’t we add some endgame now”

Evil Mastermind Dev “No lets just tell them that everything is endgame, Simple.”

Slightly Evil Dev “Omg Its brilliant, That means less work for us! Muahaha >:)”

Evil Mastermind Dev “Muahahaha! >:)”

it is arenanet’s line not something fans came up with.

In any case like I said I’d rather like what they did. Some people love repeating the same raid until they get their gear set and then do it again and again and again and you get the idea. I for one like what they’re doing with the LS far better and when I get up to date and play all thats new. I have the whole game to pick from what I feel doing until the next piece drops in a week or so.

I am not sure what really is less work, if its create a raid every few months or creating content every 2 weeks.

Dragonic Elemental.2674:

I don’t know where it comes from. You ahve infinite endgame in GW2 if you just set yourself goals. I guess you have no endgame left if you have all legendaries and all achievements, but that’ll take you a decade, so gl.

I think problem with endgame in gw2 is not lack of it, its just uttery boring after a while. In my opinion endgame is: dungeons, fractals (for gold), pvp(for some new experience) and new shiny armors that you can aquire for gems to wear for 2 days and change them back to older ones.

I hate myself for comparing old GW to GW2, but in old one you always could change your build. if you got bored of playing warrior but didnt wanted to reroll there were no problem, you could mix it with dervish and play with scythe, or be warrior/paragon and support your team by heal/mana regenerating shouts.

You had Under World and few more “real” dungs (i dont remember names) that were hard for most of playerbase and was taking few hours to clear. You couldnt repeat those dungs 10 times a day becouse you simply had not enough time per day for that. That made endgame less boring and longer, you always could craft new weapons like “destroyer or torment” but you had to earn it by doing dung(torment) or finding weaponsmith guy who were camping somewhere(destroyer). Not to mention in first GW almost each year they were adding new continent with explorable maps.
I made GW for 100% onyly once in my 4 years of PvE gameplay, Im already done twice with gw2(except legendary, but i have ascended instead).

Sorry for bad english, I hope you can understand me.

Zodiaci.3218:

I’d sincerely like to know where this rumor originated. No endgame? Is a new story campaign, giant map (and completion), crafting, a new set of dungeons, obtaining legendary weapons, and 3 new areas of the map opening up just not enough for you?
Really, where did this originate?

The story is about exciting as watching paint dry. Sorry, the dialogue is weak and contrived. I’ll go and watch some TV if I want to watch a bunch of characters jabber on.

New map is nice, but once you’ve unlocked it all, it’s nothing but a bunch of zerg events where you basically spam your 1 key.

What exactly is there new to craft? Mawdrey? Did that. Had all of my crafting maxed to 4oo or 500 for months. New weapons? Besides the fact they are ugly, even though I have 3 unidentified fossils, it requires farming boring zerg events in dry top.

What new set of dungeons are you talking about? BEcause there are none.

I have 6 legendaries, working on my 7th and 8th, already have the pre for the 7th.

None of this is true “end game”.

Vayne.8563:

Seems to me those who want an end game are unhappy and those who don’t want an end game are happy. It’s really fortunate that other MMOs exist with an end game you guys can play. I’m happy to play an MMO that doesn’t have the typical end game. Is it fashion? Is it exploring? Collecting? Achievements? Legendary?

You don’t need any of it. But you can do it all. That’s the kind of game I want.

Who wouldnt want an endgame? The first year u play this game, u can keep yourself busy, but after that, then what?
For a game based on appearence (skins), there aint alot of “endgame” skins. Every gamer needs a "goal’ in a game, once u reached those goals, u set yourself new goals, but if there aint something to go for, people get demotivated, and quit.

And dont tell me making 8+ chars lv 80, soloing a dungeon, or getting 2-3 legendary’s is endgame, those are only things to keep yourself busy. I really liked gw2, i’ve played 1.5 year, but now i check the forums once in a while, hoping that they add something new. But the only things we got were feature packs (which nerfed the fun side of leveling), and 1 map, which isnt enough to keep me busy

eXeth.9134:

Zodiaci.3218:

a new set of dungeons

WHERE?

Nick.6972:

A new set of dungeons? – Where? Did I miss something?

dlonie.6547:

You say “a set of new dungeons”. There has been exactly 1 dungeon path added in two years, and they removed another path to add it.

Corpus Christi.2057:

New set of dungeons? What do you mean exactly? I’d love to see the new set of dungeons, kitten I’d love to play it for the new armours it must have included, right? Tell me the secret, please!

calyx.9086:

What new set of dungeons are you talking about? BEcause there are none.

Here are some great examples of selective amnesia and denial

“Fractals of the Mists” is a set of dungeon paths, that did not exist when the game was released.

• It’s listed as a dungeon on the dungeons page on the GW2 website (https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/dungeons/)
• It’s listed as a dungeon on the dungeons page on the GW2 wiki (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dungeon)

If your response is “Fractals is not a Dungeon”, then what is it?

Dustbite.3670:

Vayne.8563:

Seems to me those who want an end game are unhappy and those who don’t want an end game are happy. It’s really fortunate that other MMOs exist with an end game you guys can play. I’m happy to play an MMO that doesn’t have the typical end game. Is it fashion? Is it exploring? Collecting? Achievements? Legendary?

You don’t need any of it. But you can do it all. That’s the kind of game I want.

Who wouldnt want an endgame? The first year u play this game, u can keep yourself busy, but after that, then what?
For a game based on appearence (skins), there aint alot of “endgame” skins. Every gamer needs a "goal’ in a game, once u reached those goals, u set yourself new goals, but if there aint something to go for, people get demotivated, and quit.

And dont tell me making 8+ chars lv 80, soloing a dungeon, or getting 2-3 legendary’s is endgame, those are only things to keep yourself busy. I really liked gw2, i’ve played 1.5 year, but now i check the forums once in a while, hoping that they add something new. But the only things we got were feature packs (which nerfed the fun side of leveling), and 1 map, which isnt enough to keep me busy

I think more people don’t want an end game than you think. That’s just my opinion.

But seems I’m not the only one who thinks that most people don’t run dungeons and most people don’t PvP. So what are they doing? Pretty much nothing.

Some are playing dress up, some are altoholics, some are achievement collectors. I have 150 people in my guild and maybe 20 of us run dungeons, and only ten of us run them frequently. Only about five of us SPvP and another 10 do some WvW.

Over a hundred people in my guild do very little as far as content. You know, some have jobs and don’t play as often. Or school. Or lives outside of game.

And a whole bunch of people just solo the open world and kill stuff and get what they get. Most people don’t follow the meta. I believe most people find dungeons challenging when they do them. It’s a whole different thought process.

Every time games are made for more hard core players, they end up being far more niche. Eve has half a million subs. That’s the most it’s ever had. But it’s hard core.

The more casual the game, the more players it seems to have.

dlonie.6547:

Dragonic Elemental.2674:

I don’t know where it comes from. You ahve infinite endgame in GW2 if you just set yourself goals. I guess you have no endgame left if you have all legendaries and all achievements, but that’ll take you a decade, so gl.

Yes, there are a lot of things that can be unlocked. The problem is that you have to grind the same content ad nauseam to do so. After the 100th time doing the same [dungeon | fractal | world boss] so you can get [enough gold | the skin you want | ascended mats ] to get another sliver of the way to your goal, it stops being fun.

You know what this sounds like to me? World of Warcraft. The game with “a definitive endgame”. I was a hardcore WoW player for four years (started just after Lich King launched, ended right before Pandaria launched). You know what their idea of “endgame” is?

Run the exact same dungeon five hundred times so you can use your special little tokens to buy your special little gear that’s only 1% stronger than the gear you already have. Do it again for the next piece. (Or even better, grind the same dungeon every day for two years because you’re just waiting for “that one drop”. No thanks…)

If you’re complaining about this content, which is widely considered the end-game content for pretty much every other MMO out there, then what content do you expect to get when you’re asking for an endgame here?

ShadowDragoonFTW.3418:

If you’re complaining about this content, which is widely considered the end-game content for pretty much every other MMO out there, then what content do you expect to get when you’re asking for an endgame here?

Running Underworld 2920 times in 8 years .. that is fun endgame for the GW1 players i always have the feeling.

Repeating stuff is always boring .. as long as it is not Underworld.

Beldin.5498:

ShadowDragoonFTW.3418:

If you’re complaining about this content, which is widely considered the end-game content for pretty much every other MMO out there, then what content do you expect to get when you’re asking for an endgame here?

Running Underworld 2920 times in 8 years .. that is fun endgame for the GW1 players i always have the feeling.

Repeating stuff is always boring .. as long as it is not Underworld.

This means nothing to me, because I don’t know what Underworld is, and I’m sure a lot of other users also don’t know. Be descriptive, man. :-|

Kaz.5430:

Here are some great examples of selective amnesia and denial

“Fractals of the Mists” is a set of dungeon paths, that did not exist when the game was released.

• It’s listed as a dungeon on the dungeons page on the GW2 website (https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/dungeons/)
• It’s listed as a dungeon on the dungeons page on the GW2 wiki (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dungeon)

If your response is “Fractals is not a Dungeon”, then what is it?

Yes, FotM is included under the umbrella term “dungeons” as far as terminology is concerned. However, in terms of content, a fractal is far from a dungeon. It’s like a tiny bit of a dungeon:

A dungeon has several paths, each with a series of bosses, an multi-part narrative, and a large, complex map. There are associated rewards (tokens/skins/unique items) specific to the dungeon, and a theme tying together several sets of encounters.

A fractal is a single boss, a tiny (usually) linear map, no specific rewards, and no narrative.

A set of four fractals is considered equivalent to a single dungeon path (except that FotM has far worse rewards per time). A dungeon typically consists of 4-5 paths.

Since launch, we’ve seen 5 new fractals and one new dungeon path, and also lost a dungeon path.

Net addition to dungeon content: 5 fractal instances. A little more than one dungeon path worth of content in two years. About a quarter of a dungeon.

If you occasionally run fractals or dungeons and aren’t sick to death of them yet, good for you!

Those of us who regularly run them want more. It’s commonplace to solo the hardest “endgame” dungeon. There’s something wrong with that — more challenging content is needed.

tl;dr Sure, “no new dungeons” is an oversimplification. But what has been added is barely more than a single dungeon path, and that’s just not enough to keep that aspect of the game interesting for the players who enjoy it.

ShadowDragoonFTW.3418:

Run the exact same dungeon five hundred times so you can use your special little tokens to buy your special little gear that’s only 1% stronger than the gear you already have. Do it again for the next piece.

This is the current state of GW2 dungeons, except the gear you get with tokens isn’t stronger than what is already commonly available, so you grind the same paths 500 times for gold.

(Or even better, grind the same dungeon every day for two years because you’re just waiting for “that one drop”. No thanks…)

This is the current state of FotM. Check out the dungeon forum to see the people raging over the grind for fractal skins.

My whole point is that the existing content is stale, and the few additions that LS has blessed us with are a drop in the bucket compared to the content the even GW1 had released in the same time period. If you enjoy challenging content, the “endgame” in GW2 is exhausted quickly, and we’ve been told not to expect any more in the foreseeable future.

Which is why players are saying “endgame sucks” and leaving. All of the focus is on new player experience — those of us who have been playing for two years are out of things to do and bored.

dlonie.6547:

My whole point is that the existing content is stale, and the few additions that LS has blessed us with are a drop in the bucket compared to the content the even GW1 had released in the same time period.

My whole point is that people complain about “not having endgame content”, when the stuff we have is exactly the same as what other games use for endgame content.

The complaint of “We have no endgame content!” is functionally different from the complaint of “We’ve run out of endgame content!”

ShadowDragoonFTW.3418:

dlonie.6547:

My whole point is that the existing content is stale, and the few additions that LS has blessed us with are a drop in the bucket compared to the content the even GW1 had released in the same time period.

My whole point is that people complain about “not having endgame content”, when the stuff we have is exactly the same as what other games use for endgame content.

The complaint of “We have no endgame content!” is functionally different from the complaint of “We’ve run out of endgame content!”

Fair enough :-) We should be more specific and say no continued endgame content. There’s nothing challenging in the new patches, only zerg fodder and story instances.

At least the LS2 instances are more interesting and challenging than LS1, but they’re still so dumbed down that anyone with a halfway decent grasp of the combat systems can faceroll them :-/

dlonie.6547:

Kaz.5430:

Here are some great examples of selective amnesia and denial

“Fractals of the Mists” is a set of dungeon paths, that did not exist when the game was released.

• It’s listed as a dungeon on the dungeons page on the GW2 website (https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/dungeons/)
• It’s listed as a dungeon on the dungeons page on the GW2 wiki (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dungeon)

If your response is “Fractals is not a Dungeon”, then what is it?

Yes, FotM is included under the umbrella term “dungeons” as far as terminology is concerned. However, in terms of content, a fractal is far from a dungeon. It’s like a tiny bit of a dungeon:

A dungeon has several paths, each with a series of bosses, an multi-part narrative, and a large, complex map. There are associated rewards (tokens/skins/unique items) specific to the dungeon, and a theme tying together several sets of encounters.

A fractal is a single boss, a tiny (usually) linear map, no specific rewards, and no narrative.

A set of four fractals is considered equivalent to a single dungeon path (except that FotM has far worse rewards per time). A dungeon typically consists of 4-5 paths.

Since launch, we’ve seen 5 new fractals and one new dungeon path, and also lost a dungeon path.

Net addition to dungeon content: 5 fractal instances. A little more than one dungeon path worth of content in two years. About a quarter of a dungeon.

If you occasionally run fractals or dungeons and aren’t sick to death of them yet, good for you!

Those of us who regularly run them want more. It’s commonplace to solo the hardest “endgame” dungeon. There’s something wrong with that — more challenging content is needed.

tl;dr Sure, “no new dungeons” is an oversimplification. But what has been added is barely more than a single dungeon path, and that’s just not enough to keep that aspect of the game interesting for the players who enjoy it.

IMO, that’s a great example of changing the definition of something just so that it’s existance can be denied, something that is becomeing a plague on these boards. A dungeon is not ‘defined’ by having 4 or 5 long paths, in an MMO a dungeon is simply a bit of instanced content, that is designed for a group, and generally ends with some sort of boss fight and a reward chest.

Fractals of the Mists ‘is’ a dungeon. Every single ‘set’ of Fractals that culminates in a boss fight, a reward and a choice to leave, is a dungeon ‘path’. Every single possible combination of fractals in a set is a ‘different’ dungeon path. It doesn’t matter if some other games do it differently, that doesn’t mean that the definition of a dungeon changes.

If people stopped complaining by denying the existance of things, with grand sweeping statements that are actually not true, then us detestable ‘White Knight Fanboys’ – as some people like to call us when we don’t agree with the attempts to rewrite history – would actually listen to what you say. But for some reason some of you would rather deny that anything has changed at all, than admit that the ANet developers have actually written a LOT of new content.

It’s not true that there has been no new dungeon content. The actual truth is that there has not been enough new dungeon content, to suit you.

It’s not true that there has been no new end game content. The actual truth is that there has not been enough new end game content, of the type you want to play, to suit you.

As a game developer (no tin the same league as GW2), I can say without any lie whatsoever, that when you read pages of people complaining that you’ve not done anything (when in fact you’ve done a lot), it doesn’t provide that little kick you needed to try harder (not that you needed to try harder).

What it does it it slowly burns you out, and makes you less interested in developing new content.

YOU ARE ALL WRONG !!!

There is an Endgame !!!!!!

1. Play GW2 since beta or a long time, make many toons, but lots of gems, blah blah blah etc etc

2. Eagerly await patches etc. be as excited as many people

3. Be aware of the issues of the game and keep hoping that someday, somehow, the devs will address them and the game will vastly improve its core mechanics in a positive direction.

4. Continue to keep those hopes up and keep positive thinking.

5. Spent your $$ and buy yet another character slot

6. Make an alt for the new and exciting NPE

7. Get nauseated and die inside just a tiny bit.

8. Think about all your hopes, positive thinking at the resolution or improvement of the above mentioned core.

9. Get nauseated some more at the thought of what has been done.

CONGRATULATIONS !!!!!!!

YOU have reached the End Game, as your GW2 experience will end upon your nausea and what you have experienced.

Get it ? The end game ?

Kaz.5430:

dlonie.6547:

Kaz.5430:

Here are some great examples of selective amnesia and denial

“Fractals of the Mists” is a set of dungeon paths, that did not exist when the game was released.

• It’s listed as a dungeon on the dungeons page on the GW2 website (https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/dungeons/)
• It’s listed as a dungeon on the dungeons page on the GW2 wiki (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dungeon)

If your response is “Fractals is not a Dungeon”, then what is it?

Yes, FotM is included under the umbrella term “dungeons” as far as terminology is concerned. However, in terms of content, a fractal is far from a dungeon. It’s like a tiny bit of a dungeon:

A dungeon has several paths, each with a series of bosses, an multi-part narrative, and a large, complex map. There are associated rewards (tokens/skins/unique items) specific to the dungeon, and a theme tying together several sets of encounters.

A fractal is a single boss, a tiny (usually) linear map, no specific rewards, and no narrative.

A set of four fractals is considered equivalent to a single dungeon path (except that FotM has far worse rewards per time). A dungeon typically consists of 4-5 paths.

Since launch, we’ve seen 5 new fractals and one new dungeon path, and also lost a dungeon path.

Net addition to dungeon content: 5 fractal instances. A little more than one dungeon path worth of content in two years. About a quarter of a dungeon.

If you occasionally run fractals or dungeons and aren’t sick to death of them yet, good for you!

Those of us who regularly run them want more. It’s commonplace to solo the hardest “endgame” dungeon. There’s something wrong with that — more challenging content is needed.

tl;dr Sure, “no new dungeons” is an oversimplification. But what has been added is barely more than a single dungeon path, and that’s just not enough to keep that aspect of the game interesting for the players who enjoy it.

IMO, that’s a great example of changing the definition of something just so that it’s existance can be denied, something that is becomeing a plague on these boards. A dungeon is not ‘defined’ by having 4 or 5 long paths, in an MMO a dungeon is simply a bit of instanced content, that is designed for a group, and generally ends with some sort of boss fight and a reward chest.

Fractals of the Mists ‘is’ a dungeon. Every single ‘set’ of Fractals that culminates in a boss fight, a reward and a choice to leave, is a dungeon ‘path’. Every single possible combination of fractals in a set is a ‘different’ dungeon path. It doesn’t matter if some other games do it differently, that doesn’t mean that the definition of a dungeon changes.

If people stopped complaining by denying the existance of things, with grand sweeping statements that are actually not true, then us detestable ‘White Knight Fanboys’ – as some people like to call us when we don’t agree with the attempts to rewrite history – would actually listen to what you say. But for some reason some of you would rather deny that anything has changed at all, than admit that the ANet developers have actually written a LOT of new content.

It’s not true that there has been no new dungeon content. The actual truth is that there has not been enough new dungeon content, to suit you.

It’s not true that there has been no new end game content. The actual truth is that there has not been enough new end game content, of the type you want to play, to suit you.

As a game developer (no tin the same league as GW2), I can say without any lie whatsoever, that when you read pages of people complaining that you’ve not done anything (when in fact you’ve done a lot), it doesn’t provide that little kick you needed to try harder (not that you needed to try harder).

What it does it it slowly burns you out, and makes you less interested in developing new content.

Very well said, Kaz.

Tongku.5326:

YOU ARE ALL WRONG !!!

There is an Endgame !!!!!!

[snip]

That really isn’t useful to the discussion at hand. -__-

Zodiaci.3218:

I’d sincerely like to know where this rumor originated. No endgame? Is a new story campaign, giant map (and completion), crafting, a new set of dungeons, obtaining legendary weapons, and 3 new areas of the map opening up just not enough for you?
Really, where did this originate?

Why did you proceed to lie about what has actually been added to the game? A giant map? new set of dungeons? 3 new areas of a map?(which is dry top. The new areas are very small and looking at finished dry top as a whole, the entire map is the smallest in gw2 I think.).

Why did you mention legendaries as well? Thats been here since launch. You have no real argument here. The problem is half of what you listed doesn’t really constitute for endgame. Anet has tried to do something different for endgame has hasn’t found anything that has as much longevity as the normal endgame.

Kaz.5430:

IMO, that’s a great example of changing the definition of something just so that it’s existance can be denied, something that is becomeing a plague on these boards. A dungeon is not ‘defined’ by having 4 or 5 long paths, in an MMO a dungeon is simply a bit of instanced content, that is designed for a group, and generally ends with some sort of boss fight and a reward chest.

Fractals of the Mists ‘is’ a dungeon. Every single ‘set’ of Fractals that culminates in a boss fight, a reward and a choice to leave, is a dungeon ‘path’.

I was merely explaining what we meant when we say the things we say about the unsatisfying endgame experience. Nevertheless, your ability to rigidly apply definitions literally is impressive.

Unfortunately, simply labeling a FotM instance a dungeon doesn’t put it on par with the actual dungeons in this game. Saying that the 5 new fractals are each a new dungeon is open to interpretation (apparently…), but they are undeniably significantly smaller pieces of content than the actual dungeons in the game. It’s just a label, and being pedantic about it doesn’t give us something to do.

Every single possible combination of fractals in a set is a ‘different’ dungeon path. It doesn’t matter if some other games do it differently, that doesn’t mean that the definition of a dungeon changes.

So your argument is that FotM provides 300 paths (considering the available 4 // 5 // 5 // 3 fractals per tier), so there must be plenty of fresh experiences to be had, right? Who could get bored with that much to do!

Of course not. These are combinations of the same 15 encounters. In total, about 1.5 times the content of any other dungeon in the game (assuming 4 paths/dungeon, 3 encounters per path, and being quite generous about it).

If people stopped complaining by denying the existance of things, with grand sweeping statements that are actually not true, then us detestable ‘White Knight Fanboys’ – as some people like to call us when we don’t agree with the attempts to rewrite history – would actually listen to what you say. But for some reason some of you would rather deny that anything has changed at all, than admit that the ANet developers have actually written a LOT of new content.

A “LOT” is a subjective term. If you find 5 new encounters over the course of two years to be a lot, then I’m glad you’re having fun. Doesn’t mean that other players aren’t allowed to be bored.

It’s not true that there has been no new dungeon content. The actual truth is that there has not been enough new dungeon content, to suit you.

It’s not true that there has been no new end game content. The actual truth is that there has not been enough new end game content, of the type you want to play, to suit you.

Agreed, I said as much in my last post.

As a game developer (no tin the same league as GW2), I can say without any lie whatsoever, that when you read pages of people complaining that you’ve not done anything (when in fact you’ve done a lot), it doesn’t provide that little kick you needed to try harder (not that you needed to try harder).

What it does it it slowly burns you out, and makes you less interested in developing new content.

I’m not blaming the developers for the lack of new content. It’s not their fault, they work on what they’re told to work on, and they’re told to work on LS and QoL exclusively. They have admitted that there is no dungeon “team”; there is only one team responsible for WvW, PvP, and dungeons, and that they’re stretched so thin that they can’t do anything but bugfixes. So no, I don’t blame the devs — I feel sorry for them. This decision is made at a much higher level.

I’m not going to expend any more energy arguing with you. Your pedantic argument that FotM instances are equivalent to dungeons simply because they’re lumped into the same category is flawed. The amount of content, replayability, and entertainment they provide is obviously very different.

Enjoy the last word, I’m sure you’ll take it.

Edited to remove some unintended felines

Galen Grey.4709:

well strictly speaking Arenanet’s message was never there i no endgame rather, end game starts at level 1.

I think the NPE safely puts that line to rest.

LMAO!!!!! “Normal” endgame…..lol. Does that mean there is also “Abnormal” endgame?
“Weird” endgame? “Bizarro” endgame? etc., ad infinitum…….

You people and your obsessions with end game, dungeons(whatever your definition of dungeon might be this week), and ‘content’ (as with dungeons, pick the definition of the week that works best for your whine)…….it is all such a crack up…..providing unending laughs and smh whenever I read these forums……lol. My sig says it all about these sorts of discussions on the forums.

Fwiw, I enjoy the game as it is……sure improvements can always be made…..but I have lots of fun with it. But, then again, I have a life outside of my gaming…..I don’t spend countless hours per day gaming on a computer……but what time I do have to play I immensely enjoy in GW2.

Teon.5168:

LMAO!!!!! “Normal” endgame…..lol. Does that mean there is also “Abnormal” endgame?
“Weird” endgame? “Bizarro” endgame? etc., ad infinitum…….

You people and your obsessions with end game, dungeons(whatever your definition of dungeon might be this week), and ‘content’ (as with dungeons, pick the definition of the week that works best for your whine)…….it is all such a crack up…..providing unending laughs and smh whenever I read these forums……lol. My sig says it all about these sorts of discussions on the forums.

Fwiw, I enjoy the game as it is……sure improvements can always be made…..but I have lots of fun with it. But, then again, I have a life outside of my gaming…..I don’t spend countless hours per day gaming on a computer……but what time I do have to play I immensely enjoy in GW2.

Good… for you …..!

Ya know, I MIGHT buy that argument that Fractal of the Mists shards are too short if dungeon groups didn’t spend their time in dungeons skipping as much as they can to make the run as short as possible.

chemiclord.3978:

Ya know, I MIGHT buy that argument that Fractal of the Mists shards are too short if dungeon groups didn’t spend their time in dungeons skipping as much as they can to make the run as short as possible.

And we’re the ones who make sweeping generalizations O.o

dlonie.6547:

chemiclord.3978:

Ya know, I MIGHT buy that argument that Fractal of the Mists shards are too short if dungeon groups didn’t spend their time in dungeons skipping as much as they can to make the run as short as possible.

And we’re the ones who make sweeping generalizations O.o

Just my experience, man. I have yet to join a dungeon group that was willing to experience the full run. It’s ALWAYS been skip as much as we can, get the loot, and get out.

And I don’t mean that as hyperbole, either. EVERY run I’ve been on has been to get it over with as quickly as possible.

I’m glad you apparently have a different one, but by MY experience? Yeah, players DON’T want a long experience, and so it makes the criticism of Fractals fall pretty kitten hollow.

I agree that it’s annoying. I don’t mind it, considering the ~900 dungeon runs I’ve done since getting DM (according to hobby dungeon explorer achieve, anyway) — it’s nice to get in and get out. But it would have been nice to have some incentive to fight more of those mobs instead of making them the trashiest of trash with no loot

But yeah, even skipping from boss to boss gives a handful of boss encounters. An FotM shard gives one. I think that’s a pretty significant difference.

Edit: Just saw your edit: When I was active I played with an awesome guild that was really cool about dungeons. They would skip sometimes when the group just wanted to get through, but would hang out, go slow, and take their time if we just felt like goofing around. A good guild gives a very different experience than pugging!

But that guild doesn’t do dungeons too much anymore :-( Most of the active dungeon runners have gotten bored and left for other games, as have I. Now they do a bunch of WvW :’-(

chemiclord.3978:

dlonie.6547:

chemiclord.3978:

Ya know, I MIGHT buy that argument that Fractal of the Mists shards are too short if dungeon groups didn’t spend their time in dungeons skipping as much as they can to make the run as short as possible.

And we’re the ones who make sweeping generalizations O.o

Just my experience, man. I have yet to join a dungeon group that was willing to experience the full run. It’s ALWAYS been skip as much as we can, get the loot, and get out.

And I don’t mean that as hyperbole, either. EVERY run I’ve been on has been to get it over with as quickly as possible.

I’m glad you apparently have a different one, but by MY experience? Yeah, players DON’T want a long experience, and so it makes the criticism of Fractals fall pretty kitten hollow.

Last two dungeon runs I did, we had a ranger with us running Celestial gear, LB/SB, Wolf/Artic Wolf. He insisted on fighting our way through and not trying to skip anything, though he also said it was his first time running the story paths and he didn’t know the story or how to skip stuff.

Sure, it took a couple of hours to run story AC and CoF (each), but it was pretty fun. None of the other players in the party complained.

… or existed.

There are those of us that would love to run things slower and proper, to use less than ideal builds just because we consider them fun or fitting to our character ideas. I’m pretty sure I’m not the only one left with an impression that we’re an unwanted burden on other players when we try that, though. And not everyone’s going to try doing it solo like I’ve started to do. Instead, they just quietly stay away. Maybe this is the first problem we need to address on such “end game”, making it something more welcoming to all players so there’s enough of us playing it to make it a good time investment for the devs to work on.

Have you tried putting “no skipping/stacking, lowbies welcome, be cool” or similar in your LFG post? It’s always gotten me more patient/laidback groups. Not as awesome as a good guild, but the next best thing :-)

I have done speedruns with friends, but yeah, I never join “exp only” or “speedclear” LFG posts. They’re usually full of obnoxious kibbehs :-P

Not all of them, but enough of them.

I like how people think that its still endgame content even though everyone already completed it 1,000 times on every character they have.

Endgame content doesn’t end, it keeps going. GW2 has “level 80 content”, which is not the same thing. Its content that you play when you reach 80, until you have everything you want from it, and then you are sick of it.

Then you are left with nothing to do in the end.