"No-grind philosophy"
That’s a nice story. I can attest that from my own experience SWTOR does NOT have less grind that GW2 because SWTOR requires me to have certain tiers of gear to successfully complete much of the PVE content or compete in PVP. Furthermore, that gear isn’t just thrown at you .. it is, by definition, a grind to get it; repeated content to get gear or tokens from raid drops. Nothing is more grindy than that.
By simply playing the story you get minimum required raid gear and then it doesn’t take that many raids to gear up. Far less of a grind than to get a full suite of BiS gear in GW2. As for PvP you get it by simply playing the game same as GW2.
You don’t get it … It’s not about how many raids I need to gear up, it’s about the fact that I need to do raids to gear up at all. GW2 doesn’t even come close to making me do anything I’m not interested in to gear up; I can do WHAT I CHOOSE to get gear I want. I’m also not FORCED to get BiS gear to do endgame content in GW2 .. in SWTOR, forget it if you don’t have it.
Enough with the “it’s not needed argument”. It’s not the point at all. Please go and read [again] ANet’s very own post about it. Getting BiS gear shouldn’t be a grind. It being “needed” has nothing to do with it.
As for choice. Drops are inconsequential due to their absurdly low drop rate (compounded by the fact that you can get a piece you already have or otherwise can’t put to use) which leaves just one way. Craft. If crafting is something you are interested in doing than good for you. You are not everyone and there are plenty of people who don’t like to craft.
That’s a nice story. I can attest that from my own experience SWTOR does NOT have less grind that GW2 because SWTOR requires me to have certain tiers of gear to successfully complete much of the PVE content or compete in PVP. Furthermore, that gear isn’t just thrown at you .. it is, by definition, a grind to get it; repeated content to get gear or tokens from raid drops. Nothing is more grindy than that.
By simply playing the story you get minimum required raid gear and then it doesn’t take that many raids to gear up. Far less of a grind than to get a full suite of BiS gear in GW2. As for PvP you get it by simply playing the game same as GW2.
You don’t get it … It’s not about how many raids I need to gear up, it’s about the fact that I need to do raids to gear up at all. GW2 doesn’t even come close to making me do anything I’m not interested in to gear up; I can do WHAT I CHOOSE to get gear I want. I’m also not FORCED to get BiS gear to do endgame content in GW2 .. in SWTOR, forget it if you don’t have it.
Why would you do raids if you don’t like them? The raiding gear (at least in WoW and SWTOR) is pretty much useless outside raids. PvP has its own gear and you can do everything else (dailies, quests, crafting, roleplay, soloing old dungeons or kitten ing in them with friends etc.) in quest gear, world drop gear or crafted gear… hell you can even do it naked – you will kill everything at same rate anyway (ok naked is slower).
Fun fact – at the beginning of WOTLK – my mix of 5 man heroic and crafted tanking gear had slightly better stats while having all caps, than full T7. I used to carry T7 in my bags just to prove that I have it to noobs to whom I was tanking heroics for gold ;-)
Fun fact: my paly tank in Mists of Pandaria had current raid gear up to Terrace and, with ~1.1m hp under buff if I recall correctly, could stroll around the world like a demigod, farming anything I wanted with impunity.
But tell me more about how someone in questing greens could do anything nearly as fast or nearly as well.
But wait! SWTOR was mentioned too!
I have a shadow tank, a juggernaut tank, a sage healer, a sentinel dps-only-because-they-can’t-do-anything-else and a bounty hunter I flip-flopped back in my TOR-playin’ phase between heals and dps.
The bounty hunter, the juggernaut tank and the sage healer were all current raid-geared clear up to Dread Fortress, and lemme tell ya, in dat raid gear, I could roflstomp my way through dailes in record time. I could kill things so fast on my bounty hunter and sentinel alike that I had no bottleneck except cooldowns holding me back.
Nothing could touch me. Nothing could hurt me meaningfully unless I stood there and afk’d like a tool. I was yet again as a demigod unleashed upon the world, with nothing but free game money to go and practically pick up out of the dirt for how effortless collecting it had become.
So, yeah, no. In both WoW and SWTOR, raid-level gear makes you do far more damage and take far less damage than any other gear in the game. Wherever PvE combat occurs, it is both relevant and superior in every way. (Hint: That’s pretty much everywhere except pvp).
Farming flashpoints was hilariously and stupidly easy on DF-geared toons in TOR. Speedrunning dungeons on WoW was a snorefest in raid gear.
‘raiding gear is pretty much useless outside of raids’ — bahahahahaha. Oh lawd you are clueless.
I’m done here. I’m laughing too hard.
One is only the smartest person in the room if they are alone.
(edited by naiasonod.9265)
No I said I did it multiple times to level my characters but also having the rewards as an extra thing / in the back of my might / earn them as well. Because I liked doing it. Is it then already grinding? I do not think so while it might come close. If I would have continue on to the point where I did not like it anymore but just did it for the baubles it would have been grinding but that was never the case.
I did not do it multiple times just to get the baubles to get the rewards.. you know like the people grinding for gold. To me that is a difference. I would not consider this grinding. In fact I think that is the general difference.
By your definition playing a game, doing quest and leveling at the same time would also be grinding because he you do something and leveling is an element of it. But it only because grinding when you do what you do for the sole purpose of the currency you earn (XP in that case). That does not mean the reward might not be one of the reasons or like an additional motivator for doing something (multiple times).
Would I have done SAB if I would not have gotten those rewards? Yes and likely multiple times. Did the rewards help to do it more times (increase playability), likely they gave the content an extra thrill / an extra motivator, by having the rewards to look forward to.
Would many people be doing champ-trains if they did not reward them anything? No. Do they even really like doing it or is it something they just put up with the earn the gold? For most they just put up with it. You see the difference.
Is it possible some people where purely grinding baubles in SAB? Sure.
But heey if you would want to consider both grinding (what would make everything a grind as you always earn some currency while playing and rewards are almost always part of the motivator) sure then by that definition I would want them to replace the boring grind by the better grind. But I do really think this is then really by your definition.
Same btw for farming but then your doing it for a direct item. I did for example farm MF for the back-pack and mini. I did farm it because I was repeating the dungeon for the mini also at a point where I did not like doing it anymore but just to get them knowing the dungeons would be removed at some point (never got them btw). Now I don’t mind considering it farming even if you do not dislike it but do it for the sole purpose of the reward. But it does not already become farming (or grinding) when your motivator is also just because you like it.
Sorry, I didn’t know doing something multiple times =/= grinding.
But in other news, since I like doing the same events MULTIPLE times in silverwastes, fighting the bosses durIng the breach MULTIPLE times, and the vinewrath and maze MULTIPLE times for fun because I do like the zone and events, then it isn’t a grind. The crests are just a bonus for me along with the bags I earn. If I use those bags and crests to make gold, then its all the more bonus to me.
Grind is subjective it seems.
Sure if you have fun doing it and the rewards are just an additional motivator then thats not a grind.
And don’t act as if it’s something new I am saying. If everything you do multiple times is a grind then any MP FPS is a grind because you do it multiple times, while the rewards are there (killing) and the currency is also there (points). But why does nobody call that a grind? Simply because people are not doing it just to get a number, being the best (the number) is a side thing, an additional motivator, they simply love shooting each other. Thats why nobody calls it a grind.
But yeah you act as if it’s silly what I say so I guess you always talk about how people are grinding FPS’s for kills. Oow and I guess you are grinding forum post here?
Where do we talk about grind? Mostly in RPG’s because thats the place where people tent to get into a grind.. doing something they do not really like but purely for the reward.
No I said I did it multiple times to level my characters but also having the rewards as an extra thing / in the back of my might / earn them as well. Because I liked doing it. Is it then already grinding? I do not think so while it might come close. If I would have continue on to the point where I did not like it anymore but just did it for the baubles it would have been grinding but that was never the case.
I did not do it multiple times just to get the baubles to get the rewards.. you know like the people grinding for gold. To me that is a difference. I would not consider this grinding. In fact I think that is the general difference.
By your definition playing a game, doing quest and leveling at the same time would also be grinding because he you do something and leveling is an element of it. But it only because grinding when you do what you do for the sole purpose of the currency you earn (XP in that case). That does not mean the reward might not be one of the reasons or like an additional motivator for doing something (multiple times).
Would I have done SAB if I would not have gotten those rewards? Yes and likely multiple times. Did the rewards help to do it more times (increase playability), likely they gave the content an extra thrill / an extra motivator, by having the rewards to look forward to.
Would many people be doing champ-trains if they did not reward them anything? No. Do they even really like doing it or is it something they just put up with the earn the gold? For most they just put up with it. You see the difference.
Is it possible some people where purely grinding baubles in SAB? Sure.
But heey if you would want to consider both grinding (what would make everything a grind as you always earn some currency while playing and rewards are almost always part of the motivator) sure then by that definition I would want them to replace the boring grind by the better grind. But I do really think this is then really by your definition.
Same btw for farming but then your doing it for a direct item. I did for example farm MF for the back-pack and mini. I did farm it because I was repeating the dungeon for the mini also at a point where I did not like doing it anymore but just to get them knowing the dungeons would be removed at some point (never got them btw). Now I don’t mind considering it farming even if you do not dislike it but do it for the sole purpose of the reward. But it does not already become farming (or grinding) when your motivator is also just because you like it.
Sorry, I didn’t know doing something multiple times =/= grinding.
But in other news, since I like doing the same events MULTIPLE times in silverwastes, fighting the bosses durIng the breach MULTIPLE times, and the vinewrath and maze MULTIPLE times for fun because I do like the zone and events, then it isn’t a grind. The crests are just a bonus for me along with the bags I earn. If I use those bags and crests to make gold, then its all the more bonus to me.
Grind is subjective it seems.
Sure if you have fun doing it and the rewards are just an additional motivator then thats not a grind.
And don’t act as if it’s something new I am saying. If everything you do multiple times is a grind then any MP FPS is a grind because you do it multiple times, while the rewards are there (killing) and the currency is also there (points). But why does nobody call that a grind? Simply because people are not doing it just to get a number, being the best (the number) is a side thing, an additional motivator, they simply love shooting each other. Thats why nobody calls it a grind.
But yeah you act as if it’s silly what I say so I guess you always talk about how people are grinding FPS’s for kills. Oow and I guess you are grinding forum post here?
Where do we talk about grind? Mostly in RPG’s because thats the place where people tent to get into a grind.. doing something they do not really like but purely for the reward.
Well then, this thread is moot really as people just need to not think of what they’re doing as a grind and just have fun. Then anet told the truth, gw2 isn’t a grindy game.
No I said I did it multiple times to level my characters but also having the rewards as an extra thing / in the back of my might / earn them as well. Because I liked doing it. Is it then already grinding? I do not think so while it might come close. If I would have continue on to the point where I did not like it anymore but just did it for the baubles it would have been grinding but that was never the case.
I did not do it multiple times just to get the baubles to get the rewards.. you know like the people grinding for gold. To me that is a difference. I would not consider this grinding. In fact I think that is the general difference.
By your definition playing a game, doing quest and leveling at the same time would also be grinding because he you do something and leveling is an element of it. But it only because grinding when you do what you do for the sole purpose of the currency you earn (XP in that case). That does not mean the reward might not be one of the reasons or like an additional motivator for doing something (multiple times).
Would I have done SAB if I would not have gotten those rewards? Yes and likely multiple times. Did the rewards help to do it more times (increase playability), likely they gave the content an extra thrill / an extra motivator, by having the rewards to look forward to.
Would many people be doing champ-trains if they did not reward them anything? No. Do they even really like doing it or is it something they just put up with the earn the gold? For most they just put up with it. You see the difference.
Is it possible some people where purely grinding baubles in SAB? Sure.
But heey if you would want to consider both grinding (what would make everything a grind as you always earn some currency while playing and rewards are almost always part of the motivator) sure then by that definition I would want them to replace the boring grind by the better grind. But I do really think this is then really by your definition.
Same btw for farming but then your doing it for a direct item. I did for example farm MF for the back-pack and mini. I did farm it because I was repeating the dungeon for the mini also at a point where I did not like doing it anymore but just to get them knowing the dungeons would be removed at some point (never got them btw). Now I don’t mind considering it farming even if you do not dislike it but do it for the sole purpose of the reward. But it does not already become farming (or grinding) when your motivator is also just because you like it.
Sorry, I didn’t know doing something multiple times =/= grinding.
But in other news, since I like doing the same events MULTIPLE times in silverwastes, fighting the bosses durIng the breach MULTIPLE times, and the vinewrath and maze MULTIPLE times for fun because I do like the zone and events, then it isn’t a grind. The crests are just a bonus for me along with the bags I earn. If I use those bags and crests to make gold, then its all the more bonus to me.
Grind is subjective it seems.
Sure if you have fun doing it and the rewards are just an additional motivator then thats not a grind.
And don’t act as if it’s something new I am saying. If everything you do multiple times is a grind then any MP FPS is a grind because you do it multiple times, while the rewards are there (killing) and the currency is also there (points). But why does nobody call that a grind? Simply because people are not doing it just to get a number, being the best (the number) is a side thing, an additional motivator, they simply love shooting each other. Thats why nobody calls it a grind.
But yeah you act as if it’s silly what I say so I guess you always talk about how people are grinding FPS’s for kills. Oow and I guess you are grinding forum post here?
Where do we talk about grind? Mostly in RPG’s because thats the place where people tent to get into a grind.. doing something they do not really like but purely for the reward.
Well then, this thread is moot really as people just need to not think of what they’re doing as a grind and just have fun. Then anet told the truth, gw2 isn’t a grindy game.
If a lot of rewards are only available in a way that many if not most people consider a boring grind that is a problem and your game is grindy (for those elements).
A problem that should be talked about and really should be solved. That is what this topic is about. We already established like on page 2 or so that grind it’s also a personal thing. But it’s good to see you catching up.
Well then, this thread is moot really as people just need to not think of what they’re doing as a grind and just have fun. Then anet told the truth, gw2 isn’t a grindy game.
yeah you are getting way off track into debate, as are many people here.
The reality is that gw2, in practice, has you doing the same things many many many times in order to progress item wise for most post 80 goals. while in theory you could do anything that gives you gold, logic dictates if certain things are noticeably more effecient at getting gold, people will do these things.
and yes grind is not an absolute term, there is subjectiveness involved, however just because something is subjective doesnt mean it is meaningless. If a lot of people find getting stabbed painful, and some find it pleasureable, that doesnt mean stabbing should now be considered a pleasurable activity by and large.
back to the point, most of the goals players would have as they get deeper into the game feel quite grindy to many players. If anet thinks they created a game that doesnt feel grindy, there are many who would disagree.
by reference and comparing hours of repetive tasks/number of repetitions to other popular current mmos, for later game goals, gw2 is far more grindy than ffxiv, wow, ffxi, and swtor,
At the time Guild Wars 1 was created there were no free to play MMOs out at all.
False.
And even though Guild Wars 1 itself wasn’t an MMO, it filled the niche of an MMO type of game for many people.
False.
CORPG is a term invented by anet. GW1 IS an MMORPG. You don’t need the ability to create a “zerg” to kill mobs in a persistent world, you need a virtual persistent 2D/3D world that let you meet and interact with many other people supported by a system that facilitate social interaction and roleplaying.
I bet one day the term will be even more extended of what it is today (that is even more complex of what wikipedia suggests). Mmorpg are not all about grinding, quests and killing respawning AI, mmorpg are (and in my opinion should be more) about people.
We can discuss if GW1 it was more closer to a sandbox or a themepark of what GW2 is, but not if it was or not an mmorpg.
By the way, back on topic, regarding the no grind philosophy I do fear the mastery system and the idea that you will be facing some challanges that you won’t be able to overcome not because you lack of skills, but because you lack of mastery points. What will happen if I have all the points required to travel to a specific location of the map, but a friend of mine, after stopping playing for few weeks will come back? Will we still be able to enjoy together the new content? Or will I have to wait untill he will have grinded all the points he needs to reaches me?
If he’ll need to grind, won’t this fracture the popolation? Isn’t the same as introducing a gear treadmill? Those are all the questions running through my mind.
Anyone who thinks 12 people in a zone at one time is an MMO and not a lobby game, I have no idea what to say to them. Anet said the game wasn’t an MMO. Most sites that report on gaming agree Guild Wars 1 isn’t an MMO. And most fans I’ve talked to over the years agree Guild Wars 1 wasn’t an MMO. This has been addressed exhaustively by a lot of people, but almost everyone that I’ve talked to over the years, including people on this forum, agree that Guild Wars 1 didn’t have a persistent world.
In fact, when the Guild Wars 2 FAQ first came out,. it asked the question is Guild Wars 2 an MMO and the answer was yes, Guild Wars 2 will have a persistent world. You can make up any definition you want, but more than any, the existence of a persistent world is what defines an MMO. That is to say, you can run into people in the open world randomly. Guild Wars 1 was a lobby game. You not agreeing doesn’t make me wrong, and this has been discussed so many times, I can’t even imagine anyone would contradict a company about what their own product is.
Now, since you say when Guild Wars 1 came out there were other free to play MMORPGs around perhaps you’d like to name one. I’ll wait here.
At the time Guild Wars 1 was created there were no free to play MMOs out at all.
False.
And even though Guild Wars 1 itself wasn’t an MMO, it filled the niche of an MMO type of game for many people.
False.
CORPG is a term invented by anet. GW1 IS an MMORPG. You don’t need the ability to create a “zerg” to kill mobs in a persistent world, you need a virtual persistent 2D/3D world that let you meet and interact with many other people supported by a system that facilitate social interaction and roleplaying.
I bet one day the term will be even more extended of what it is today (that is even more complex of what wikipedia suggests). Mmorpg are not all about grinding, quests and killing respawning AI, mmorpg are (and in my opinion should be more) about people.
We can discuss if GW1 it was more closer to a sandbox or a themepark of what GW2 is, but not if it was or not an mmorpg.
By the way, back on topic, regarding the no grind philosophy I do fear the mastery system and the idea that you will be facing some challanges that you won’t be able to overcome not because you lack of skills, but because you lack of mastery points. What will happen if I have all the points required to travel to a specific location of the map, but a friend of mine, after stopping playing for few weeks will come back? Will we still be able to enjoy together the new content? Or will I have to wait untill he will have grinded all the points he needs to reaches me?
If he’ll need to grind, won’t this fracture the popolation? Isn’t the same as introducing a gear treadmill? Those are all the questions running through my mind.Anyone who thinks 12 people in a zone at one time is an MMO and not a lobby game, I have no idea what to say to them.
Lol what? Each town map instance held way more people than that. In addition to that, it was much easier to transition between instances provided there was an open spot. All you had to do was select from a drop down menu. On top of that, map chat spanned across the instances and I think (it has been years) there was a global chat.
At the time Guild Wars 1 was created there were no free to play MMOs out at all.
False.
And even though Guild Wars 1 itself wasn’t an MMO, it filled the niche of an MMO type of game for many people.
False.
CORPG is a term invented by anet. GW1 IS an MMORPG. You don’t need the ability to create a “zerg” to kill mobs in a persistent world, you need a virtual persistent 2D/3D world that let you meet and interact with many other people supported by a system that facilitate social interaction and roleplaying.
I bet one day the term will be even more extended of what it is today (that is even more complex of what wikipedia suggests). Mmorpg are not all about grinding, quests and killing respawning AI, mmorpg are (and in my opinion should be more) about people.
We can discuss if GW1 it was more closer to a sandbox or a themepark of what GW2 is, but not if it was or not an mmorpg.
By the way, back on topic, regarding the no grind philosophy I do fear the mastery system and the idea that you will be facing some challanges that you won’t be able to overcome not because you lack of skills, but because you lack of mastery points. What will happen if I have all the points required to travel to a specific location of the map, but a friend of mine, after stopping playing for few weeks will come back? Will we still be able to enjoy together the new content? Or will I have to wait untill he will have grinded all the points he needs to reaches me?
If he’ll need to grind, won’t this fracture the popolation? Isn’t the same as introducing a gear treadmill? Those are all the questions running through my mind.Anyone who thinks 12 people in a zone at one time is an MMO and not a lobby game, I have no idea what to say to them. Anet said the game wasn’t an MMO. Most sites that report on gaming agree Guild Wars 1 isn’t an MMO. And most fans I’ve talked to over the years agree Guild Wars 1 wasn’t an MMO. This has been addressed exhaustively by a lot of people, but almost everyone that I’ve talked to over the years, including people on this forum, agree that Guild Wars 1 didn’t have a persistent world.
In fact, when the Guild Wars 2 FAQ first came out,. it asked the question is Guild Wars 2 an MMO and the answer was yes, Guild Wars 2 will have a persistent world. You can make up any definition you want, but more than any, the existence of a persistent world is what defines an MMO. That is to say, you can run into people in the open world randomly. Guild Wars 1 was a lobby game. You not agreeing doesn’t make me wrong, and this has been discussed so many times, I can’t even imagine anyone would contradict a company about what their own product is.
Now, since you say when Guild Wars 1 came out there were other free to play MMORPGs around perhaps you’d like to name one. I’ll wait here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_free_massively_multiplayer_online_games
Let’s now go back to the subject of this thread, the grind issue.
The side discussions where interesting and did have value for the thread. But now some of them are getting to much off-topic, adding little to no value.
[Edit: To not create another off-topic discussion I place the reaction to “Those updates were easier to program because there were less people in each zone.” here.
Allowing for more people in a zone is done in the engine, that has already been done (while improving it is never bad) and is not something you have to do again for every new content / map you design. You will have to think about the lay-out of new content to allow for many people, but that only makes it different, not harder]
(edited by Devata.6589)
At the time Guild Wars 1 was created there were no free to play MMOs out at all.
False.
And even though Guild Wars 1 itself wasn’t an MMO, it filled the niche of an MMO type of game for many people.
False.
CORPG is a term invented by anet. GW1 IS an MMORPG. You don’t need the ability to create a “zerg” to kill mobs in a persistent world, you need a virtual persistent 2D/3D world that let you meet and interact with many other people supported by a system that facilitate social interaction and roleplaying.
I bet one day the term will be even more extended of what it is today (that is even more complex of what wikipedia suggests). Mmorpg are not all about grinding, quests and killing respawning AI, mmorpg are (and in my opinion should be more) about people.
We can discuss if GW1 it was more closer to a sandbox or a themepark of what GW2 is, but not if it was or not an mmorpg.
By the way, back on topic, regarding the no grind philosophy I do fear the mastery system and the idea that you will be facing some challanges that you won’t be able to overcome not because you lack of skills, but because you lack of mastery points. What will happen if I have all the points required to travel to a specific location of the map, but a friend of mine, after stopping playing for few weeks will come back? Will we still be able to enjoy together the new content? Or will I have to wait untill he will have grinded all the points he needs to reaches me?
If he’ll need to grind, won’t this fracture the popolation? Isn’t the same as introducing a gear treadmill? Those are all the questions running through my mind.Anyone who thinks 12 people in a zone at one time is an MMO and not a lobby game, I have no idea what to say to them. Anet said the game wasn’t an MMO. Most sites that report on gaming agree Guild Wars 1 isn’t an MMO. And most fans I’ve talked to over the years agree Guild Wars 1 wasn’t an MMO. This has been addressed exhaustively by a lot of people, but almost everyone that I’ve talked to over the years, including people on this forum, agree that Guild Wars 1 didn’t have a persistent world.
In fact, when the Guild Wars 2 FAQ first came out,. it asked the question is Guild Wars 2 an MMO and the answer was yes, Guild Wars 2 will have a persistent world. You can make up any definition you want, but more than any, the existence of a persistent world is what defines an MMO. That is to say, you can run into people in the open world randomly. Guild Wars 1 was a lobby game. You not agreeing doesn’t make me wrong, and this has been discussed so many times, I can’t even imagine anyone would contradict a company about what their own product is.
Now, since you say when Guild Wars 1 came out there were other free to play MMORPGs around perhaps you’d like to name one. I’ll wait here.
The free-to-play model originated in the late 1990s and early 2000s, coming from a series of highly successful MMOs targeted towards children and casual gamers, including Furcadia, Neopets, RuneScape,910 MapleStory, and text-based dungeons such as Achaea, Dreams of Divine Lands.11 Known for producing innovative titles, small independent developers also continue to release free-to-play games. The Internet has been cited[by whom?] as a primary influence on the increased usage of the free-to-play model, particularly among larger video game companies, and critics point to the ever-increasing need for free content that is available wherever and whenever as causes.
gw2 didnt orginate f2p, or b2p either for that matter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play
Minor nitpick to your minor nitpick.
The game world in GW is not persistent. Only the towns/outposts (i.e., the lobbies) are.
Towns/Outposts were and are part of the world and the platforms that promoted social interactions. There were mobs to kill there? No, but that’s another story.
An online world is not by definition a place where you have to/can kill stuff.
Anyway this thread is not about GW1vsGW2. Feel free to prove that I’m wrong in what I say, I don’t care, I’ll stop now derailing the thread. Have a nice day :*
But there is a significant factor in this thread that is on topic. Devata believes that this game can get updates as fast as Guild Wars 1 did and I don’t believe it can. Those updates were easier to program because there were less people in each zone.
You do realize that in outposts in Guild Wars 1 you couldn’t even use skills. They were literally lobbies. The game was played in on a playing field where Anet knew exactly how many people would be present at each encounter. Either one person with 7 heroes in all of Sparkfly Swamp or 8 people. That’s what they had to design for. Those events didn’t scale. They didn’t interact with each other. Creatures didn’t spontaneously spawn.
That makes it harder to make and test a game. It takes longer. You need more dynamic events than quests (by a magnitude of 3 according to what Anet said) so that there’s usually something for people to do in a zone.
So where does grind fit in?
Grind is there to keep people from leaving the game between content updates. If you give people nothing to chip away at, many people will get bored and walk away.
There are many types of players, but I believe most of them don’t know how to make their own fun. They have to be led around by the nose.
It goes back to the release of ascended gear and keeping players in game. Would it have been better to have more content instead of ascended gear? Absolutely. But how many months would it have taken to make that new content, as opposed to added ascended gear to the game and once people blew through that content, what would Anet do then? It would take them months to make more content.
Anet added the ascended gear grind for the reason every MMORPG has grind. To keep people playing who need something to work on that shows a gain in power. Without that, people lose interest, as was the case with both my sons.
Not all people, but probably enough people to make a statement.
Minor nitpick to your minor nitpick.
The game world in GW is not persistent. Only the towns/outposts (i.e., the lobbies) are.
Towns/Outposts were and are part of the world and the platforms that promoted social interactions. There were mobs to kill there? No, but that’s another story.
An online world is not by definition a place where you have to/can kill stuff.
Anyway this thread is not about GW1vsGW2. Feel free to prove that I’m wrong in what I say, I don’t care, I’ll stop now derailing the thread. Have a nice day :*But there is a significant factor in this thread that is on topic. Devata believes that this game can get updates as fast as Guild Wars 1 did and I don’t believe it can. Those updates were easier to program because there were less people in each zone.
You do realize that in outposts in Guild Wars 1 you couldn’t even use skills. They were literally lobbies. The game was played in on a playing field where Anet knew exactly how many people would be present at each encounter. Either one person with 7 heroes in all of Sparkfly Swamp or 8 people. That’s what they had to design for. Those events didn’t scale. They didn’t interact with each other. Creatures didn’t spontaneously spawn.
That makes it harder to make and test a game. It takes longer. You need more dynamic events than quests (by a magnitude of 3 according to what Anet said) so that there’s usually something for people to do in a zone.
So where does grind fit in?
Grind is there to keep people from leaving the game between content updates. If you give people nothing to chip away at, many people will get bored and walk away.
There are many types of players, but I believe most of them don’t know how to make their own fun. They have to be led around by the nose.
It goes back to the release of ascended gear and keeping players in game. Would it have been better to have more content instead of ascended gear? Absolutely. But how many months would it have taken to make that new content, as opposed to added ascended gear to the game and once people blew through that content, what would Anet do then? It would take them months to make more content.
Anet added the ascended gear grind for the reason every MMORPG has grind. To keep people playing who need something to work on that shows a gain in power. Without that, people lose interest, as was the case with both my sons.
Not all people, but probably enough people to make a statement.
people need goals, and progression, not necessarily grind.
how well you can interweave this and maximize the enjoyment of of your content/game is the goal.
I feel with most of gw2 endgame goals they are failing to make the game more enjoyable. The game is best enjoyed by ignoring most of these endgame goals, thats a flaw in design.
the rewards as part of game design, are designed to enhance the experience and incentivize interesting play. If your rewards arent doing this, its a flaw in the design.
Minor nitpick to your minor nitpick.
The game world in GW is not persistent. Only the towns/outposts (i.e., the lobbies) are.
Towns/Outposts were and are part of the world and the platforms that promoted social interactions. There were mobs to kill there? No, but that’s another story.
An online world is not by definition a place where you have to/can kill stuff.
Anyway this thread is not about GW1vsGW2. Feel free to prove that I’m wrong in what I say, I don’t care, I’ll stop now derailing the thread. Have a nice day :*But there is a significant factor in this thread that is on topic. Devata believes that this game can get updates as fast as Guild Wars 1 did and I don’t believe it can. Those updates were easier to program because there were less people in each zone.
You do realize that in outposts in Guild Wars 1 you couldn’t even use skills. They were literally lobbies. The game was played in on a playing field where Anet knew exactly how many people would be present at each encounter. Either one person with 7 heroes in all of Sparkfly Swamp or 8 people. That’s what they had to design for. Those events didn’t scale. They didn’t interact with each other. Creatures didn’t spontaneously spawn.
That makes it harder to make and test a game. It takes longer. You need more dynamic events than quests (by a magnitude of 3 according to what Anet said) so that there’s usually something for people to do in a zone.
So where does grind fit in?
Grind is there to keep people from leaving the game between content updates. If you give people nothing to chip away at, many people will get bored and walk away.
There are many types of players, but I believe most of them don’t know how to make their own fun. They have to be led around by the nose.
It goes back to the release of ascended gear and keeping players in game. Would it have been better to have more content instead of ascended gear? Absolutely. But how many months would it have taken to make that new content, as opposed to added ascended gear to the game and once people blew through that content, what would Anet do then? It would take them months to make more content.
Anet added the ascended gear grind for the reason every MMORPG has grind. To keep people playing who need something to work on that shows a gain in power. Without that, people lose interest, as was the case with both my sons.
Not all people, but probably enough people to make a statement.
people need goals, and progression, not necessarily grind.
how well you can interweave this and maximize the enjoyment of of your content/game is the goal.
I feel with most of gw2 endgame goals they are failing to make the game more enjoyable. The game is best enjoyed by ignoring most of these endgame goals, thats a flaw in design.the rewards as part of game design, are designed to enhance the experience and incentivize interesting play. If your rewards arent doing this, its a flaw in the design.
The problem here is one person’s progression is another person’s grind. I thought the ascended weapons were too grindy. Always have. Frankly I didn’t want them at all. But I believe that people were leaving the game because of nothing to do and the only thing that could be added quickly was something grindy. So Anet made a compromise. They put in this grind to keep people but didn’t make it necessary to do content.
Fast forward, Anet has a balancing act to perform. I don’t believe they can create content much faster than they’re doing and no matter what people are going to blow through content. So the artificial bumps in the road keep people in the game.
You might say why not just add a new dungeon. That’ll keep people playing. That’ll keep dungeon runners playing. It’s not going to keep me playing. Well you might say add a new PvP map. That’ll keep PvPers playing, but it won’t keep me playing. Well, you might say add stuff to WvW. That’ll keep the WvWer’s playing, but it won’t keep me playing.
Put in some achievements for me to go after, that’ll keep me playing. And its’ a lot faster htan designing a new dungeon, a new PvP map and new stuff for WvW. It’s a matter of balance.
Anet said when they started you’d be able to play how you wanted. What if a serious percentage of people want to grind?
No I said I did it multiple times to level my characters but also having the rewards as an extra thing / in the back of my might / earn them as well. Because I liked doing it. Is it then already grinding? I do not think so while it might come close. If I would have continue on to the point where I did not like it anymore but just did it for the baubles it would have been grinding but that was never the case.
I did not do it multiple times just to get the baubles to get the rewards.. you know like the people grinding for gold. To me that is a difference. I would not consider this grinding. In fact I think that is the general difference.
By your definition playing a game, doing quest and leveling at the same time would also be grinding because he you do something and leveling is an element of it. But it only because grinding when you do what you do for the sole purpose of the currency you earn (XP in that case). That does not mean the reward might not be one of the reasons or like an additional motivator for doing something (multiple times).
Would I have done SAB if I would not have gotten those rewards? Yes and likely multiple times. Did the rewards help to do it more times (increase playability), likely they gave the content an extra thrill / an extra motivator, by having the rewards to look forward to.
Would many people be doing champ-trains if they did not reward them anything? No. Do they even really like doing it or is it something they just put up with the earn the gold? For most they just put up with it. You see the difference.
Is it possible some people where purely grinding baubles in SAB? Sure.
But heey if you would want to consider both grinding (what would make everything a grind as you always earn some currency while playing and rewards are almost always part of the motivator) sure then by that definition I would want them to replace the boring grind by the better grind. But I do really think this is then really by your definition.
Same btw for farming but then your doing it for a direct item. I did for example farm MF for the back-pack and mini. I did farm it because I was repeating the dungeon for the mini also at a point where I did not like doing it anymore but just to get them knowing the dungeons would be removed at some point (never got them btw). Now I don’t mind considering it farming even if you do not dislike it but do it for the sole purpose of the reward. But it does not already become farming (or grinding) when your motivator is also just because you like it.
Sorry, I didn’t know doing something multiple times =/= grinding.
But in other news, since I like doing the same events MULTIPLE times in silverwastes, fighting the bosses durIng the breach MULTIPLE times, and the vinewrath and maze MULTIPLE times for fun because I do like the zone and events, then it isn’t a grind. The crests are just a bonus for me along with the bags I earn. If I use those bags and crests to make gold, then its all the more bonus to me.
Grind is subjective it seems.
Sure if you have fun doing it and the rewards are just an additional motivator then thats not a grind.
And don’t act as if it’s something new I am saying. If everything you do multiple times is a grind then any MP FPS is a grind because you do it multiple times, while the rewards are there (killing) and the currency is also there (points). But why does nobody call that a grind? Simply because people are not doing it just to get a number, being the best (the number) is a side thing, an additional motivator, they simply love shooting each other. Thats why nobody calls it a grind.
But yeah you act as if it’s silly what I say so I guess you always talk about how people are grinding FPS’s for kills. Oow and I guess you are grinding forum post here?
Where do we talk about grind? Mostly in RPG’s because thats the place where people tent to get into a grind.. doing something they do not really like but purely for the reward.
Well then, this thread is moot really as people just need to not think of what they’re doing as a grind and just have fun. Then anet told the truth, gw2 isn’t a grindy game.
If a lot of rewards are only available in a way that many if not most people consider a boring grind that is a problem and your game is grindy (for those elements).
A problem that should be talked about and really should be solved. That is what this topic is about. We already established like on page 2 or so that grind it’s also a personal thing. But it’s good to see you catching up.
OK OK. MOST people. Gotcha. So then, MOST people who play the game must be posting in this topic ATM right? And not the same people over and over talking in circles?
snip
By your definition playing a game, doing quest and leveling at the same time would also be grinding because he you do something and leveling is an element of it. But it only because grinding when you do what you do for the sole purpose of the currency you earn (XP in that case). That does not mean the reward might not be one of the reasons or like an additional motivator for doing something (multiple times).
Would I have done SAB if I would not have gotten those rewards? Yes and likely multiple times. Did the rewards help to do it more times (increase playability), likely they gave the content an extra thrill / an extra motivator, by having the rewards to look forward to.
Would many people be doing champ-trains if they did not reward them anything? No. Do they even really like doing it or is it something they just put up with the earn the gold? For most they just put up with it. You see the difference.
Is it possible some people where purely grinding baubles in SAB? Sure.
But heey if you would want to consider both grinding (what would make everything a grind as you always earn some currency while playing and rewards are almost always part of the motivator) sure then by that definition I would want them to replace the boring grind by the better grind. But I do really think this is then really by your definition.
Same btw for farming but then your doing it for a direct item. I did for example farm MF for the back-pack and mini. I did farm it because I was repeating the dungeon for the mini also at a point where I did not like doing it anymore but just to get them knowing the dungeons would be removed at some point (never got them btw). Now I don’t mind considering it farming even if you do not dislike it but do it for the sole purpose of the reward. But it does not already become farming (or grinding) when your motivator is also just because you like it.
Sorry, I didn’t know doing something multiple times =/= grinding.
But in other news, since I like doing the same events MULTIPLE times in silverwastes, fighting the bosses durIng the breach MULTIPLE times, and the vinewrath and maze MULTIPLE times for fun because I do like the zone and events, then it isn’t a grind. The crests are just a bonus for me along with the bags I earn. If I use those bags and crests to make gold, then its all the more bonus to me.
Grind is subjective it seems.
Sure if you have fun doing it and the rewards are just an additional motivator then thats not a grind.
And don’t act as if it’s something new I am saying. If everything you do multiple times is a grind then any MP FPS is a grind because you do it multiple times, while the rewards are there (killing) and the currency is also there (points). But why does nobody call that a grind? Simply because people are not doing it just to get a number, being the best (the number) is a side thing, an additional motivator, they simply love shooting each other. Thats why nobody calls it a grind.
But yeah you act as if it’s silly what I say so I guess you always talk about how people are grinding FPS’s for kills. Oow and I guess you are grinding forum post here?
Where do we talk about grind? Mostly in RPG’s because thats the place where people tent to get into a grind.. doing something they do not really like but purely for the reward.
Well then, this thread is moot really as people just need to not think of what they’re doing as a grind and just have fun. Then anet told the truth, gw2 isn’t a grindy game.
If a lot of rewards are only available in a way that many if not most people consider a boring grind that is a problem and your game is grindy (for those elements).
A problem that should be talked about and really should be solved. That is what this topic is about. We already established like on page 2 or so that grind it’s also a personal thing. But it’s good to see you catching up.
OK OK. MOST people. Gotcha. So then, MOST people who play the game must be posting in this topic ATM right? And not the same people over and over talking in circles?
Actually I agree with Devata. Most people consider the way to get stuff in this game a boring grind. The problem is I’ve yet to see any MMO where it’s been otherwise.
It goes back to content can’t be produced fast enough so grind has to be introduced. The trick is to make it so all the grind items are optional and people can make their own choices.
Because making things easier to get, ie allowing people to have them faster just means people getting bored faster.
The grind is boring, but having nothing to work for is even more boring…to a lot of people…maybe even most.
snip
Sorry, I didn’t know doing something multiple times =/= grinding.
But in other news, since I like doing the same events MULTIPLE times in silverwastes, fighting the bosses durIng the breach MULTIPLE times, and the vinewrath and maze MULTIPLE times for fun because I do like the zone and events, then it isn’t a grind. The crests are just a bonus for me along with the bags I earn. If I use those bags and crests to make gold, then its all the more bonus to me.
Grind is subjective it seems.
Sure if you have fun doing it and the rewards are just an additional motivator then thats not a grind.
And don’t act as if it’s something new I am saying. If everything you do multiple times is a grind then any MP FPS is a grind because you do it multiple times, while the rewards are there (killing) and the currency is also there (points). But why does nobody call that a grind? Simply because people are not doing it just to get a number, being the best (the number) is a side thing, an additional motivator, they simply love shooting each other. Thats why nobody calls it a grind.
But yeah you act as if it’s silly what I say so I guess you always talk about how people are grinding FPS’s for kills. Oow and I guess you are grinding forum post here?
Where do we talk about grind? Mostly in RPG’s because thats the place where people tent to get into a grind.. doing something they do not really like but purely for the reward.
Well then, this thread is moot really as people just need to not think of what they’re doing as a grind and just have fun. Then anet told the truth, gw2 isn’t a grindy game.
If a lot of rewards are only available in a way that many if not most people consider a boring grind that is a problem and your game is grindy (for those elements).
A problem that should be talked about and really should be solved. That is what this topic is about. We already established like on page 2 or so that grind it’s also a personal thing. But it’s good to see you catching up.
OK OK. MOST people. Gotcha. So then, MOST people who play the game must be posting in this topic ATM right? And not the same people over and over talking in circles?
Actually I agree with Devata. Most people consider the way to get stuff in this game a boring grind. The problem is I’ve yet to see any MMO where it’s been otherwise.
It goes back to content can’t be produced fast enough so grind has to be introduced. The trick is to make it so all the grind items are optional and people can make their own choices.
Because making things easier to get, ie allowing people to have them faster just means people getting bored faster.
The grind is boring, but having nothing to work for is even more boring…to a lot of people…maybe even most.
Yeah, but if you just do things multiple times and have fun while getting rewards, its not grind.
snip
Sorry, I didn’t know doing something multiple times =/= grinding.
But in other news, since I like doing the same events MULTIPLE times in silverwastes, fighting the bosses durIng the breach MULTIPLE times, and the vinewrath and maze MULTIPLE times for fun because I do like the zone and events, then it isn’t a grind. The crests are just a bonus for me along with the bags I earn. If I use those bags and crests to make gold, then its all the more bonus to me.
Grind is subjective it seems.
snip
Where do we talk about grind? Mostly in RPG’s because thats the place where people tent to get into a grind.. doing something they do not really like but purely for the reward.
Well then, this thread is moot really as people just need to not think of what they’re doing as a grind and just have fun. Then anet told the truth, gw2 isn’t a grindy game.
If a lot of rewards are only available in a way that many if not most people consider a boring grind that is a problem and your game is grindy (for those elements).
A problem that should be talked about and really should be solved. That is what this topic is about. We already established like on page 2 or so that grind it’s also a personal thing. But it’s good to see you catching up.
OK OK. MOST people. Gotcha. So then, MOST people who play the game must be posting in this topic ATM right? And not the same people over and over talking in circles?
Actually I agree with Devata. Most people consider the way to get stuff in this game a boring grind. The problem is I’ve yet to see any MMO where it’s been otherwise.
It goes back to content can’t be produced fast enough so grind has to be introduced. The trick is to make it so all the grind items are optional and people can make their own choices.
Because making things easier to get, ie allowing people to have them faster just means people getting bored faster.
The grind is boring, but having nothing to work for is even more boring…to a lot of people…maybe even most.
Yeah, but if you just do things multiple times and have fun while getting rewards, its not grind.
Okay this is true. But it’s not quite what we’re talking about. Take the new luminescent armor.
This armor requires you to do events in other parts of the world. Get four organs from different creatures of the breech events in Silverwastes, and finish all the achievements in the Living Story.
The problem is each time another part came out, you needed to get another type of organ from each of the four bosses.
More to the point, you can’t just go get them you have to wait for a breech event. You generally can’t join a map just before a breech event, so you have to go into that zone early to hold a place so you can be there for the event. Then you have to kill those bosses. So I’ve had to kill each of those bosses six times at a minimum and there are four of them. That’s 24 boss kills that are part of a lengthier process.
I love the Silverwastes. I think it’s one of the best zones in the game. But due to the set up, there are people who don’t further the events, but they wait until they can get into a map that’s done further. This is due strictly to how long it takes and how many of these parts you need. So they don’t do anything to help, get in at the last moment they can and get their part…leaving people like me to do the donkey work.
After weeks of this zone, I’m tired of it, and I still have one part left to get. It may not be grind in the strictest sense of the word, but I’ve got two achievements left and 1 organ left and I’m not having fun going back there. I’m burned out on the zone. I find myself going back more to Dry Top which I also enjoyed, not because I have to, but because I enjoy it. So I took a break from working on the luminscent to get more insects for ambrite weapons, which I love.
The thing is, if you’re not in a rush for stuff and you work on it gradually, then you’re pretty much not grinding. You go when you want to and you do what you want. But then you can fall behind and there’d be more and more stuff you’re working on which is overwhelming for me at least. I still needed one more halloween weapon (Mad Moon) and I only need one more TA run to get it. But I’m not all that enthused about running dungeons, so it sits until someone needs help.
There has to be a balance. I think Anet has gotten better at it, but they need to get better still.
Why would you do raids if you don’t like them?
I don’t but I know why others might; because they think the reward is worth the journey. because they have something to prove. because they want to achieve, regardless of how it’s done.
Another theme of this thread; people with the belief that all players are homogeneous. That they all play for the same reasons with the same goals, the same approach. Those people can’t imagine why Anet introduced Ascended gear grind into a game with a no-grind philosophy. It’s just tunnel vision being used to justify the idea that there is only one way to play the game, one way for the game to exist and any deviation from that is a kittenization of some ideal defined by these narrow minded players.
If people stopped trying to tell others how the game SHOULD be, or how they SHOULD play, half these threads wouldn’t exist. There isn’t a place in this industry for anyone BUT the developers to do that. Somewhere, gamers have decided they know better than anyone how games should work but don’t see the contradiction that ideas differ, so it can never be just one idea satisfying everyone. No game is everything to everyone.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
That’s a nice story. I can attest that from my own experience SWTOR does NOT have less grind that GW2 because SWTOR requires me to have certain tiers of gear to successfully complete much of the PVE content or compete in PVP. Furthermore, that gear isn’t just thrown at you .. it is, by definition, a grind to get it; repeated content to get gear or tokens from raid drops. Nothing is more grindy than that.
By simply playing the story you get minimum required raid gear and then it doesn’t take that many raids to gear up. Far less of a grind than to get a full suite of BiS gear in GW2. As for PvP you get it by simply playing the game same as GW2.
You don’t get it … It’s not about how many raids I need to gear up, it’s about the fact that I need to do raids to gear up at all. GW2 doesn’t even come close to making me do anything I’m not interested in to gear up; I can do WHAT I CHOOSE to get gear I want. I’m also not FORCED to get BiS gear to do endgame content in GW2 .. in SWTOR, forget it if you don’t have it.
Why would you do raids if you don’t like them? The raiding gear (at least in WoW and SWTOR) is pretty much useless outside raids. PvP has its own gear and you can do everything else (dailies, quests, crafting, roleplay, soloing old dungeons or kitten ing in them with friends etc.) in quest gear, world drop gear or crafted gear… hell you can even do it naked – you will kill everything at same rate anyway (ok naked is slower).
Fun fact – at the beginning of WOTLK – my mix of 5 man heroic and crafted tanking gear had slightly better stats while having all caps, than full T7. I used to carry T7 in my bags just to prove that I have it to noobs to whom I was tanking heroics for gold ;-)
Fun fact: my paly tank in Mists of Pandaria had current raid gear up to Terrace and, with ~1.1m hp under buff if I recall correctly, could stroll around the world like a demigod, farming anything I wanted with impunity.
But tell me more about how someone in questing greens could do anything nearly as fast or nearly as well.
But wait! SWTOR was mentioned too!
I have a shadow tank, a juggernaut tank, a sage healer, a sentinel dps-only-because-they-can’t-do-anything-else and a bounty hunter I flip-flopped back in my TOR-playin’ phase between heals and dps.
The bounty hunter, the juggernaut tank and the sage healer were all current raid-geared clear up to Dread Fortress, and lemme tell ya, in dat raid gear, I could roflstomp my way through dailes in record time. I could kill things so fast on my bounty hunter and sentinel alike that I had no bottleneck except cooldowns holding me back.
Nothing could touch me. Nothing could hurt me meaningfully unless I stood there and afk’d like a tool. I was yet again as a demigod unleashed upon the world, with nothing but free game money to go and practically pick up out of the dirt for how effortless collecting it had become.
So, yeah, no. In both WoW and SWTOR, raid-level gear makes you do far more damage and take far less damage than any other gear in the game. Wherever PvE combat occurs, it is both relevant and superior in every way. (Hint: That’s pretty much everywhere except pvp).
Farming flashpoints was hilariously and stupidly easy on DF-geared toons in TOR. Speedrunning dungeons on WoW was a snorefest in raid gear.
‘raiding gear is pretty much useless outside of raids’ — bahahahahaha. Oh lawd you are clueless.
I’m done here. I’m laughing too hard.
I never said raiding gear wasn’t better in PvE, just sait it wasn’t needed. Bunch of white knigths in this thread mentioned that ascended gear is not needed for anything else than fractals yada yada yada this game is better becuase you don’t have to raid. Well this is false because you don’t have to raid in other games either – crafted and world drop gear is fairly enough to do everything what you want minus raids (and PvP because PvP has special gear).
And why am I talking about other games?… because I have managed to get BiS gear in them while doing content for which was this gear created… PvP gear in PvP, raiding gear in raids. Unlike in GW2 where I have to play TP, FarmVille, slot machine also known as mystic toilet for infusions and ofcourse crafting UI minigame in order to get the ascended gear which is the only one with slots for AR infusions which are needed in Fractals.
tldr; I have to do everything else but fractals in order to get into higher level fractals without being carried.
And people including devs are pretending this game has no grind? Rly? I am laughing.
I never said raiding gear wasn’t better in PvE, just sait it wasn’t needed. Bunch of white knigths in this thread mentioned that ascended gear is not needed for anything else than fractals yada yada yada this game is better becuase you don’t have to raid. Well this is false because you don’t have to raid in other games either – crafted and world drop gear is fairly enough to do everything what you want minus raids (and PvP because PvP has special gear).
And why am I talking about other games?… because I have managed to get BiS gear in them while doing content for which was this gear created… PvP gear in PvP, raiding gear in raids. Unlike in GW2 where I have to play TP, FarmVille, slot machine also known as mystic toilet for infusions and ofcourse crafting UI minigame in order to get the ascended gear which is the only one with slots for AR infusions which are needed in Fractals.
tldr; I have to do everything else but fractals in order to get into higher level fractals without being carried.
And people including devs are pretending this game has no grind? Rly? I am laughing.
Ahh, ok, ok. I’ll reel in the snark and give that the nod. It isn’t necessary out in open world content, that’s true.
It absolutely does give a massive advantage in doing everything PvE-combat oriented faster, better and more reliably though. Hands down, raid gear in a raidy-geargrind game is the single best investment one can make on their characters if being able to do everything PvE-oriented more efficiently is at all a concern.
Just to putz around and plink at some dailies? Nah. Not necessary. Won’t quibble that on ya.
One is only the smartest person in the room if they are alone.
Anet has so far done an incredible job with their content and game design as well as story. I have been playing games for 20+ years and MMOs for the last 10. Out of everything I have seen, done, or thought of to improve other MMO’s GW2 has delivered in almost every aspect. As I approach my second year playing I see they have only improved and refined their design philosophy. I personally think that they are on the right track and not to deviate from it.
Enough with the “it’s not needed argument”. It’s not the point at all. Please go and read [again] ANet’s very own post about it. Getting BiS gear shouldn’t be a grind. It being “needed” has nothing to do with it.
I’m well aware of what Anet said and by their own definition, BiS isn’t a grind and yes there is an element of need in thier definition, but it’s not for the gear, it’s for repeating content to get it. if you want Ascended, there are many ways to go about getting the mats. Therefore, when I’m talking to the dude who thinks SWTOR is less than a grind than GW2, I’m pointing out that in SWTOR, the grind is large because there are only specific content that can be done (i.e., needed to repeat) to get enough comms to get gear to improve; and yes in some instances, you need that gear to do more difficult content. GW2 does not do that to me. I can happy do almost everything in exotic. Context … it’s important.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
So I played Rift and the entire game pushed you into raiding when I played. There was one single major story line and it ended in a raid. If you didn’t raid, you didn’t do the main quest of the game.
More than that, the rewards for open world content were capped and everyone had maxed their cap and there was nothing, absolutely nothing to buy from it. That meant if you continued to do open world content, you’d do it for no reward. I would be like maxed on planarite. No reward at all for me unless I raid.
You don’t have to raid. You can just stop playing.
So I played Rift and the entire game pushed you into raiding when I played. There was one single major story line and it ended in a raid. If you didn’t raid, you didn’t do the main quest of the game.
More than that, the rewards for open world content were capped and everyone had maxed their cap and there was nothing, absolutely nothing to buy from it. That meant if you continued to do open world content, you’d do it for no reward. I would be like maxed on planarite. No reward at all for me unless I raid.
You don’t have to raid. You can just stop playing.
Dimension building wound up being my endgame on there when I played. I had way more fun doing that than I ever did raiding, I gotta admit.
One is only the smartest person in the room if they are alone.
So I played Rift and the entire game pushed you into raiding when I played. There was one single major story line and it ended in a raid. If you didn’t raid, you didn’t do the main quest of the game.
More than that, the rewards for open world content were capped and everyone had maxed their cap and there was nothing, absolutely nothing to buy from it. That meant if you continued to do open world content, you’d do it for no reward. I would be like maxed on planarite. No reward at all for me unless I raid.
You don’t have to raid. You can just stop playing.
Dimension building wound up being my endgame on there when I played. I had way more fun doing that than I ever did raiding, I gotta admit.
That was after I stopped playing. When I played, first five six months, there was nothing at end game but raiding period. Or collecting sparklies I guess, if you considered that end game.
Why are people moaning about grinding for 100% completion or aesthetics?
Seriously, believing that 100%‘ing the game is setting one’s self up for a grind. Simply put, everyone has different interests and motivations, and with the definition of “grind” being subjective, there is no way all content will or even should ever theoretically be considered as not a grind on the basis that different content elements are targeted for different audiences with different interests and general play styles/behaviors. Not all content will be desirable to you. Repetition is necessary to keep people playing. It’s not a grind if you enjoy the repetitive task; I spend almost all of my GW2 time in WvW, and am happy to stay there. I’ve made ascended weapons and armor from my WvW endeavors alone by salvaging drops from bags for the mats and crafting everything. It’s taken me longer, but frankly, it doesn’t really matter seeing as the total gains are incredibly negligible.
Are fractals grindy for me? Absolutely. Getting Condense/Coagulated essence for infusion to wear two of the same accessory is a dreadful experience that I have still yet to complete. Fractal capacitor progress was slow-going for me, but I got there and I’m happy I reached my goals.
Honestly, what makes things much more of a “grind” is RNG. The fact I can do 20 fractals and never get essence, but my friend can do one and get a shard is something that that drives me up the wall. There’s no sense of progress, not benchmark reached, just the hope and desire gated by time which is further emphasized by once-daily activities. I think GW2 is very low on the grind on the basis that one’s needs and even many “wants” are reasonably obtained through various means. I’d argue RNG and time-gating is the real culprit at hand which accentuates the slow feel of acquisition more than anything.
Formal Thief Elite Spec proposal:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/ES-Suggestion-The-Deadeye-FORMAL/
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/ES-Suggestion-The-Deadeye-FORMAL/
Oh, so, by anet’s definition, having to kill a raid boss, for a 15% chance to get the sword I want = grind.
Being able to get that same sword after:
- spending hundreds of hours hoarding mats or gold to buy the mats needed to craft other mats needed to craft the sword (with time gating, because kitten)
- get that sword via killing any mob in game, with a drop chance of 0,00000001%
= no grind!!!
Give me back my grind, please.
(edited by Aenesthesia.1697)
Oh, so, by anet’s definition, having to kill a raid boss, for a 15% chance to get the sword I want = grind.
Being able to get that same sword after:
- spending hundreds of hours hoarding mats or gold to buy the mats needed to craft other mats needed to craft the sword (with time gating, because kitten)
- get that sword via killing any mob in game, with a drop chance of 0,00000001%= no grind!!!
Give me back my grind, please.
ANet is taking the grind to a whole new level with their anti-grind philosophy.
It is like they make the grind feel so futile, that most players will just give up on getting what they want.
Genious!
Mesmer PvE Guide
The Leveling & Open World Compendium
The Leveling & Open World Compendium
Oh, so, by anet’s definition, having to kill a raid boss, for a 15% chance to get the sword I want = grind.
Being able to get that same sword after:
- spending hundreds of hours hoarding mats or gold to buy the mats needed to craft other mats needed to craft the sword (with time gating, because kitten)
- get that sword via killing any mob in game, with a drop chance of 0,00000001%= no grind!!!
Give me back my grind, please.
ANet is taking the grind to a whole new level with their anti-grind philosophy.
It is like they make the grind feel so futile, that most players will just give up on getting what they want.
Genious!
the timegating at the very least needs to be removed. Fair enough when the system was initially released, they didn’t want ppl rocking best gear in a day. but now its old news, and is literally the reason i haven’t bothered to kit myself in full ascended gear yet. The waiting is stupid as hell.
Oh, so, by anet’s definition, having to kill a raid boss, for a 15% chance to get the sword I want = grind.
Being able to get that same sword after:
- spending hundreds of hours hoarding mats or gold to buy the mats needed to craft other mats needed to craft the sword (with time gating, because kitten)
- get that sword via killing any mob in game, with a drop chance of 0,00000001%= no grind!!!
Give me back my grind, please.
ANet is taking the grind to a whole new level with their anti-grind philosophy.
It is like they make the grind feel so futile, that most players will just give up on getting what they want.
Genious!
I’m not sure why you think you’d know what most players like or don’t like.
Oh, so, by anet’s definition, having to kill a raid boss, for a 15% chance to get the sword I want = grind.
Being able to get that same sword after:
- spending hundreds of hours hoarding mats or gold to buy the mats needed to craft other mats needed to craft the sword (with time gating, because kitten)
- get that sword via killing any mob in game, with a drop chance of 0,00000001%= no grind!!!
Give me back my grind, please.
ANet is taking the grind to a whole new level with their anti-grind philosophy.
It is like they make the grind feel so futile, that most players will just give up on getting what they want.
Genious!
I’m not sure why you think you’d know what most players like or don’t like.
I don’t think this “I don’t think you can proof anything you say, but whatever I say is correct because I say so” mentality helps any kind of discussion.
In fact I think it’s pretty childish and only causing topics to get derailed. If this is your goal, I think I have to remind you of the forum rules. It is against them. Sorry.
Mesmer PvE Guide
The Leveling & Open World Compendium
The Leveling & Open World Compendium
I never said raiding gear wasn’t better in PvE, just sait it wasn’t needed. Bunch of white knigths in this thread mentioned that ascended gear is not needed for anything else than fractals yada yada yada this game is better becuase you don’t have to raid. Well this is false because you don’t have to raid in other games either – crafted and world drop gear is fairly enough to do everything what you want minus raids (and PvP because PvP has special gear).
The point is, that while raid gear certainly is not needed for open world play in other games, it does give you a huge advantage over quest gear in most, if not all of those games. It makes any farming and questing in open world areas much quicker and easier than if you try to do the same in quest and crafted gear.
In GW2, on the other hand, the difference between ascended and exotics of the same stat set is negligible in open world play. I play a variety of classes in this game, both with and without ascended equipment, and neither in the open world nor in dungeons do I notice a difference between e.g. my full exotics mesmer on one account and my full ascended mesmer (same stat set) on the other. In other games, I did notice the difference, and it was huge … in this game, you have to get out your stopwatch and calculator to even have a chance to notice a difference.
This, to me, is the difference for grinding for raid gear in other games and aquiring ascended gear in this game (and I’ve done both, although I pretty much refuse to grind these days … good thing ascended aren’t locked behind doing the same raids over and over two nights a week).
the timegating at the very least needs to be removed. Fair enough when the system was initially released, they didn’t want ppl rocking best gear in a day. but now its old news, and is literally the reason i haven’t bothered to kit myself in full ascended gear yet. The waiting is stupid as hell.
Just take a step at a time, and craft whenever you have the material instead of moaning about not having it all at once. You could’ve gotten several sets of ascended stuff by now. I know I did, as a by-product of casual play.
Or take the easy way out and take advantage of other people’s timegated materials. I personally am currently crafting time-gated materials I don’t need at the moment to give to friends in exchange for the raw materials, so they can speed up their crafting. If all else fails, you can always get the timegated components from the trading post, although those come with a fee of course.
Oh, so, by anet’s definition, having to kill a raid boss, for a 15% chance to get the sword I want = grind.
Being able to get that same sword after:
- spending hundreds of hours hoarding mats or gold to buy the mats needed to craft other mats needed to craft the sword (with time gating, because kitten)
- get that sword via killing any mob in game, with a drop chance of 0,00000001%= no grind!!!
Give me back my grind, please.
ANet is taking the grind to a whole new level with their anti-grind philosophy.
It is like they make the grind feel so futile, that most players will just give up on getting what they want.
Genious!
I’m not sure why you think you’d know what most players like or don’t like.
I don’t think this “I don’t think you can proof anything you say, but whatever I say is correct because I say so” mentality helps any kind of discussion.
In fact I think it’s pretty childish and only causing topics to get derailed. If this is your goal, I think I have to remind you of the forum rules. It is against them. Sorry.
Well no. A person comes into conversation after conversation and consistently throws out negative, unconstructive and in most cases unprovable one-liners.
Pointing them out isn’t against the terms of service.
You made a direct, unprovably comment about grind in this game, but you’ve shown yourself, again and again in post, that you don’t like the game as it stands. It’s not a far stroll to believe that these one liners are born of disappointment in general.
But when you start saying what most players feel or do and don’t want, there’s no reason in the world why someone shouldn’t call you on it.
Why not talk about what you like, instead of trying to make it sound like you have some kind of majority?
@Rasimir
Would be cool if they just made it so that the first one you craft a day is tradeable, and any you craft after that is account bound, till that day is over.
I realise it’s not that big a deal, but its so much resource management that you basically have to have one character sit holding all the stuff, which means i basically cant use that person for dungeons for an extended period of time. It’s little problems sure, but it seems pointless now that the game is so far along to keep the timegating on certain items.
(to combine stacks of account bound and free trade versions of an item, you always have the ability to turn a free trade version into an account bound version)
(edited by Equilibriator.8741)
Just take a step at a time, and craft whenever you have the material instead of moaning about not having it all at once. You could’ve gotten several sets of ascended stuff by now. I know I did, as a by-product of casual play.
Or take the easy way out and take advantage of other people’s timegated materials. I personally am currently crafting time-gated materials I don’t need at the moment to give to friends in exchange for the raw materials, so they can speed up their crafting. If all else fails, you can always get the timegated components from the trading post, although those come with a fee of course.
Time-gated stuff needs to be removed, though. There are 30 minute consumables limited to being crafted 1x/day per account which use time-gated materials. If you look at the materials cost, it’d run someone around 25s/hour of buffs from the massive market flood of the raw materials, but the finished product is around 2g/hour.
Formal Thief Elite Spec proposal:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/ES-Suggestion-The-Deadeye-FORMAL/
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/ES-Suggestion-The-Deadeye-FORMAL/
Oh, so, by anet’s definition, having to kill a raid boss, for a 15% chance to get the sword I want = grind.
Being able to get that same sword after:
- spending hundreds of hours hoarding mats or gold to buy the mats needed to craft other mats needed to craft the sword (with time gating, because kitten)
- get that sword via killing any mob in game, with a drop chance of 0,00000001%= no grind!!!
Give me back my grind, please.
ANet is taking the grind to a whole new level with their anti-grind philosophy.
It is like they make the grind feel so futile, that most players will just give up on getting what they want.
Genious!
I’m not sure why you think you’d know what most players like or don’t like.
I don’t think this “I don’t think you can proof anything you say, but whatever I say is correct because I say so” mentality helps any kind of discussion.
In fact I think it’s pretty childish and only causing topics to get derailed. If this is your goal, I think I have to remind you of the forum rules. It is against them. Sorry.
Well no. A person comes into conversation after conversation and consistently throws out negative, unconstructive and in most cases unprovable one-liners.
Pointing them out isn’t against the terms of service.
You made a direct, unprovably comment about grind in this game, but you’ve shown yourself, again and again in post, that you don’t like the game as it stands. It’s not a far stroll to believe that these one liners are born of disappointment in general.
But when you start saying what most players feel or do and don’t want, there’s no reason in the world why someone shouldn’t call you on it.
Why not talk about what you like, instead of trying to make it sound like you have some kind of majority?
Look, we are all guilty of making assumptions.
I love GW2. I play it more than any other game. I recently leveled an elementalist to 80 and right now I am working on my ranger (level 55) because I love druids as a concept and I want to see how it will be in GW2.
GW2 is the best MMO around, despite all the mistakes ANet has made since release. But at least they start fixing those mistakes. This started with abandoning the horrible way to deliver LS1, to a very traditional quest system in LS2. Actually LS2 was very similar to the original PS, which is great and what I have asked for many times.
I was also very happy, when ANet finally announced a traditional paid expansion with very traditional stuff in it. New class, some love for existing classes, horizontal progression, some more fluff. I always made it clear, that a traditional expansion is the best way to deliver content and finally ANet came to the same conclusion.
No living story right now, and as far as I can tell, many don’t care too much. I actually expect there to no longer be any Living Story going on, more like more frequent DLC patches with proper content.
So actually, GW2 is moving in the right direction. My comments might be very controversial because I tend to exaggerate stuff to make the flaws more visible, but for now I feel that my feedback has fruited in a positive way.
Ascended gear grind is one of the flaws still left in game, but I somehow expect this to be solved with HoT, as ascended rewards might become way more common, we will see.
So don’t tell me that I dislike this game because that is just your personal assumption which you cannot proof.
The point is, the game won’t get any better by defending the status quo.
Mesmer PvE Guide
The Leveling & Open World Compendium
The Leveling & Open World Compendium
Please sir, find that game that has no grind and only has content and enjoy it for yourself.
Guild Wars.
But anyway... It’s funny that they have the balls of marketing GW2 as the "anti-grind" MMO when it’s by far the most grindy game I’ve played in a lot of time (since Tibia in the early 00’s to be precise).
Rubios – Tales of the Sunless [TXS]
(edited by Spiuk.8421)
Minor nitpick to your minor nitpick.
The game world in GW is not persistent. Only the towns/outposts (i.e., the lobbies) are.
Towns/Outposts were and are part of the world and the platforms that promoted social interactions. There were mobs to kill there? No, but that’s another story.
An online world is not by definition a place where you have to/can kill stuff.
Anyway this thread is not about GW1vsGW2. Feel free to prove that I’m wrong in what I say, I don’t care, I’ll stop now derailing the thread. Have a nice day :*But there is a significant factor in this thread that is on topic. Devata believes that this game can get updates as fast as Guild Wars 1 did and I don’t believe it can. Those updates were easier to program because there were less people in each zone.
You do realize that in outposts in Guild Wars 1 you couldn’t even use skills. They were literally lobbies. The game was played in on a playing field where Anet knew exactly how many people would be present at each encounter. Either one person with 7 heroes in all of Sparkfly Swamp or 8 people. That’s what they had to design for. Those events didn’t scale. They didn’t interact with each other. Creatures didn’t spontaneously spawn.
That makes it harder to make and test a game. It takes longer. You need more dynamic events than quests (by a magnitude of 3 according to what Anet said) so that there’s usually something for people to do in a zone.
So where does grind fit in?
Grind is there to keep people from leaving the game between content updates. If you give people nothing to chip away at, many people will get bored and walk away.
There are many types of players, but I believe most of them don’t know how to make their own fun. They have to be led around by the nose.
It goes back to the release of ascended gear and keeping players in game. Would it have been better to have more content instead of ascended gear? Absolutely. But how many months would it have taken to make that new content, as opposed to added ascended gear to the game and once people blew through that content, what would Anet do then? It would take them months to make more content.
Anet added the ascended gear grind for the reason every MMORPG has grind. To keep people playing who need something to work on that shows a gain in power. Without that, people lose interest, as was the case with both my sons.
Not all people, but probably enough people to make a statement.
people need goals, and progression, not necessarily grind.
how well you can interweave this and maximize the enjoyment of of your content/game is the goal.
I feel with most of gw2 endgame goals they are failing to make the game more enjoyable. The game is best enjoyed by ignoring most of these endgame goals, thats a flaw in design.the rewards as part of game design, are designed to enhance the experience and incentivize interesting play. If your rewards arent doing this, its a flaw in the design.
Exactly!
Those rewards / collecting is also for many people end-game.
Heck, during the HoT presentation Colin (I think it was Colin) even talked about how people liked collecting.
That is also why the whole ’it’s not ‘requires’ so it’s oke’ is complete nonsense. It is also exactly as you say.. this content, my end-game is in GW2 completely destroyed because if I wanted to do that it would just be this boring brainless grind what I am not going to do.
That is also exactly why people might in fact leave because of this.. not directly because of the grind but because they ignore the grind and then have nothing to do as this would have been their end-game content.
It’s exactly like you say “I feel with most of gw2 endgame goals they are failing to make the game more enjoyable. The game is best enjoyed by ignoring most of these endgame goals, thats a flaw in design.”. I did also like WvW and doing stuff with the guild so there were other things to do, but I had to ignore those goals, that what usually would have been my end-gam,e to be able to enjoy the game.
(edited by Devata.6589)
Please sir, find that game that has no grind and only has content and enjoy it for yourself.
Guild Wars.
But anyway… It’s funny that they have the balls of marketing GW2 as the “anti-grind” MMO when it’s by far the most grindy game I’ve played in a lot of time (since Tibia in the early 00’s to be precise).
GW1 had plenty of grind with its faction grind and grinding for ectos. Then grinding the same mob over and over again for its rare drop.
Why would you do raids if you don’t like them? The raiding gear (at least in WoW and SWTOR) *is pretty much useless outside raids.
When was the last time you actually played WoW? Raid gear in MoP was extremely useful outside of raids. Given two players with equal skill, the guy in heroic raiding gear would literally do four times the DPS of the other guy. That means that everything PvE related was faster for them: farming mats, completing dailies, area completion, soloing old dungeons, etc., etc. At times it was even the best PvP gear available, until the PvPers (rightfully) got up in arms and they fixed it. Just take a look at the varoius item level tabs on this DPS comparison page and tell me that gear doesn’t matter in WoW: DPS Rankings in WoW
Fun fact – at the beginning of WOTLK – my mix of 5 man heroic and crafted tanking gear had slightly better stats while having all caps, than full T7. I used to carry T7 in my bags just to prove that I have it to noobs to whom I was tanking heroics for gold ;-)
They got completely away from that after WotLK, and even further away in MoP. Crafted and heroic gear was only good enough to get you into the entry level raids. From then you had to four tiers of raiding to grind through to your hearts’ content (LFR, Flex, Normal, Heroic). I don’t want this game to go that route because it absolutely sucks.
GW1 had plenty of grind with its faction grind and grinding for ectos. Then grinding the same mob over and over again for its rare drop.
But there were also many title tracks that were not so grindy. Legendary Vanquisher, for example. Also, I got full sets of BiS end game gear by simply playing through story lines. We didn’t hit level 20 only to discover that we were going to be collecting silk for the next year or so before being able to craft our BiS gear. Plus, there were tricks to reducing your grind in GW1. Soloing high end mobs was feasible with certain builds, and three-manning eight-man content was often effective as well.
But there is a significant factor in this thread that is on topic. Devata believes that this game can get updates as fast as Guild Wars 1 did and I don’t believe it can. Those updates were easier to program because there were less people in each zone.
You do realize that in outposts in Guild Wars 1 you couldn’t even use skills. They were literally lobbies. The game was played in on a playing field where Anet knew exactly how many people would be present at each encounter. Either one person with 7 heroes in all of Sparkfly Swamp or 8 people. That’s what they had to design for. Those events didn’t scale. They didn’t interact with each other. Creatures didn’t spontaneously spawn.
That makes it harder to make and test a game. It takes longer. You need more dynamic events than quests (by a magnitude of 3 according to what Anet said) so that there’s usually something for people to do in a zone.
So where does grind fit in?
Grind is there to keep people from leaving the game between content updates. If you give people nothing to chip away at, many people will get bored and walk away.
There are many types of players, but I believe most of them don’t know how to make their own fun. They have to be led around by the nose.
It goes back to the release of ascended gear and keeping players in game. Would it have been better to have more content instead of ascended gear? Absolutely. But how many months would it have taken to make that new content, as opposed to added ascended gear to the game and once people blew through that content, what would Anet do then? It would take them months to make more content.
Anet added the ascended gear grind for the reason every MMORPG has grind. To keep people playing who need something to work on that shows a gain in power. Without that, people lose interest, as was the case with both my sons.
Not all people, but probably enough people to make a statement.
people need goals, and progression, not necessarily grind.
how well you can interweave this and maximize the enjoyment of of your content/game is the goal.
I feel with most of gw2 endgame goals they are failing to make the game more enjoyable. The game is best enjoyed by ignoring most of these endgame goals, thats a flaw in design.the rewards as part of game design, are designed to enhance the experience and incentivize interesting play. If your rewards arent doing this, its a flaw in the design.
The problem here is one person’s progression is another person’s grind. I thought the ascended weapons were too grindy. Always have. Frankly I didn’t want them at all. But I believe that people were leaving the game because of nothing to do and the only thing that could be added quickly was something grindy. So Anet made a compromise. They put in this grind to keep people but didn’t make it necessary to do content.
Fast forward, Anet has a balancing act to perform. I don’t believe they can create content much faster than they’re doing and no matter what people are going to blow through content. So the artificial bumps in the road keep people in the game.
You might say why not just add a new dungeon. That’ll keep people playing. That’ll keep dungeon runners playing. It’s not going to keep me playing. Well you might say add a new PvP map. That’ll keep PvPers playing, but it won’t keep me playing. Well, you might say add stuff to WvW. That’ll keep the WvWer’s playing, but it won’t keep me playing.
Put in some achievements for me to go after, that’ll keep me playing. And its’ a lot faster htan designing a new dungeon, a new PvP map and new stuff for WvW. It’s a matter of balance.
Anet said when they started you’d be able to play how you wanted. What if a serious percentage of people want to grind?
What if a serious percentage of people want to hunt down cosmetics without the brainless grind gold being the ole real option to do so. Something that’s not even very strange to imagine for a game that is all about cosmetics at was promoted as having no grind?
Anyway it looks now like we have come to the point where everybody (or at least you) does agree there is some bad grind in GW2 but are trying to make up excuses for Anet. All fine but that does not solve the problem at hand or does not undo what people are saying here. People dislike the grind and talk about it. It does not matter if Anet had good excuses to make it this way.
Some people play this game hardcore, so there needs to be incentives for those people; some grind for those people. Else people who play hardcore and love grinding would feel like dupes for doing what they enjoy.
Still, as a WvW player who hasn’t got but one Ascended piece of armor aside from accessories, I dislike that there are players roaming around the map with stronger weapons than me. I’m not on equal ground competitively like you are in sPvP. And the only way I can do anything about it is to play parts of the game that I don’t like to grind for crafting materials so I can craft it.
I know you can get random Ascended drops from WvW but I’ve yet to get one. And from what I see pinged in chat, the drops have specific and random stats. So that has very limited usage.
I just want to roam around in WvW and be on equal ground gear-wise without having to play other parts of the game that I find much less fun.
~
Sorry, I didn’t know doing something multiple times =/= grinding.
But in other news, since I like doing the same events MULTIPLE times in silverwastes, fighting the bosses durIng the breach MULTIPLE times, and the vinewrath and maze MULTIPLE times for fun because I do like the zone and events, then it isn’t a grind. The crests are just a bonus for me along with the bags I earn. If I use those bags and crests to make gold, then its all the more bonus to me.
Grind is subjective it seems.
Sure if you have fun doing it and the rewards are just an additional motivator then thats not a grind.
And don’t act as if it’s something new I am saying. If everything you do multiple times is a grind then any MP FPS is a grind because you do it multiple times, while the rewards are there (killing) and the currency is also there (points). But why does nobody call that a grind? Simply because people are not doing it just to get a number, being the best (the number) is a side thing, an additional motivator, they simply love shooting each other. Thats why nobody calls it a grind.
But yeah you act as if it’s silly what I say so I guess you always talk about how people are grinding FPS’s for kills. Oow and I guess you are grinding forum post here?
Where do we talk about grind? Mostly in RPG’s because thats the place where people tent to get into a grind.. doing something they do not really like but purely for the reward.
Well then, this thread is moot really as people just need to not think of what they’re doing as a grind and just have fun. Then anet told the truth, gw2 isn’t a grindy game.
If a lot of rewards are only available in a way that many if not most people consider a boring grind that is a problem and your game is grindy (for those elements).
A problem that should be talked about and really should be solved. That is what this topic is about. We already established like on page 2 or so that grind it’s also a personal thing. But it’s good to see you catching up.
OK OK. MOST people. Gotcha. So then, MOST people who play the game must be posting in this topic ATM right? And not the same people over and over talking in circles?
Woow like everything you said here made no sense. Are you even still believing what you are saying yourself? Sorry but this comment was just sad.
1: I said “that many if not most people” you make of that ‘most’, even putting the word most in caps. Funny because by saying it the way I do I explicit say it do not have to be most.
This start already destroys your compelete statement.
2: Out of nowhere you just act as if it’s a matter of fact that everybody who plays the game and finds something grindy comes to the forum to post about it.
This nonsense idea would have also send your whole argument down the drain wasen’t it already destroyd before.
And that in a comment of two lines.
btw, didn’t many people stopped playing GW2? Would is be possible that the grind could be one of the reasons? And if so would it be wise to try to hold them when they come back for HoT?
GW1 had plenty of grind with its faction grind and grinding for ectos. Then grinding the same mob over and over again for its rare drop.
But there were also many title tracks that were not so grindy. Legendary Vanquisher, for example. Also, I got full sets of BiS end game gear by simply playing through story lines. We didn’t hit level 20 only to discover that we were going to be collecting silk for the next year or so before being able to craft our BiS gear. Plus, there were tricks to reducing your grind in GW1. Soloing high end mobs was feasible with certain builds, and three-manning eight-man content was often effective as well.
Because some elements of not so grindy doesn’t mean there isn’t grind. Its still grind. There are tricks to reducing the grind in gw2 as well. But its still grind.
snip
Sorry, I didn’t know doing something multiple times =/= grinding.
But in other news, since I like doing the same events MULTIPLE times in silverwastes, fighting the bosses durIng the breach MULTIPLE times, and the vinewrath and maze MULTIPLE times for fun because I do like the zone and events, then it isn’t a grind. The crests are just a bonus for me along with the bags I earn. If I use those bags and crests to make gold, then its all the more bonus to me.
Grind is subjective it seems.
Sure if you have fun doing it and the rewards are just an additional motivator then thats not a grind.
And don’t act as if it’s something new I am saying. If everything you do multiple times is a grind then any MP FPS is a grind because you do it multiple times, while the rewards are there (killing) and the currency is also there (points). But why does nobody call that a grind? Simply because people are not doing it just to get a number, being the best (the number) is a side thing, an additional motivator, they simply love shooting each other. Thats why nobody calls it a grind.
But yeah you act as if it’s silly what I say so I guess you always talk about how people are grinding FPS’s for kills. Oow and I guess you are grinding forum post here?
Where do we talk about grind? Mostly in RPG’s because thats the place where people tent to get into a grind.. doing something they do not really like but purely for the reward.
Well then, this thread is moot really as people just need to not think of what they’re doing as a grind and just have fun. Then anet told the truth, gw2 isn’t a grindy game.
If a lot of rewards are only available in a way that many if not most people consider a boring grind that is a problem and your game is grindy (for those elements).
A problem that should be talked about and really should be solved. That is what this topic is about. We already established like on page 2 or so that grind it’s also a personal thing. But it’s good to see you catching up.
OK OK. MOST people. Gotcha. So then, MOST people who play the game must be posting in this topic ATM right? And not the same people over and over talking in circles?
Actually I agree with Devata. Most people consider the way to get stuff in this game a boring grind. The problem is I’ve yet to see any MMO where it’s been otherwise.
It goes back to content can’t be produced fast enough so grind has to be introduced. The trick is to make it so all the grind items are optional and people can make their own choices.
Because making things easier to get, ie allowing people to have them faster just means people getting bored faster.
The grind is boring, but having nothing to work for is even more boring…to a lot of people…maybe even most.
Yeah, but if you just do things multiple times and have fun while getting rewards, its not grind.
This is getting hilarious. A few post ago you where acting basically as if I was crazy for saying exactly this.
So tell, you are just a troll?
And yes if you enjoy doing something multiple times it’s not a grind but as many if not most (so maby most, maybe not) people do consider is a boring grind they obviously don’t have a lot of fun doing it. They do it only for the reward only. (and if they get it they are likely burned out by the game).
I have seen many people leave after getting there legendary and not because they had no goal left as some where interested in another one but once they got there first there where all the bad memories from the last grind and the next goal would mean more of that.
Woow like everything you said here made no sense. Are you even still believing what you are saying yourself? Sorry but this comment was just sad.
1: I said “that many if not most people” you make of that ‘most’, even putting the word most in caps. Funny because by saying it the way I do I explicit say it do not have to be most.
This start already destroys your compelete statement.2: Out of nowhere you just act as if it’s a matter of fact that everybody who plays the game and finds something grindy comes to the forum to post about it.
This nonsense idea would have also send your whole argument down the drain wasen’t it already destroyd before.
And that in a comment of two lines.
btw, didn’t many people stopped playing GW2? Would is be possible that the grind could be one of the reasons? And if so would it be wise to try to hold them when they come back for HoT?
1. “That many if not most” – you are desiring that most people believe in what you are saying about grind, but you fall back on many, you are still trying to incorporate a large number of players, which, fun fact, you have no proof it is.
2. I’m only acting how everyone in this thread has been acting about it. Because, as no one really ever likes to admit on the forums, forum posters are a small minority of the game population. Yet its claimed that “many” or “most” people have a problem with something. Yes people, those of us arguing in this thread are a small minority of the actual game population. While we can give feedback, if what we say isn’t what Anet sees happening in the game, then its an issue that either can be ignored, or fixed later on. Wouldn’t it be funny if we could actually see numbers (never going to happen) and it turned out that less than half of players saw this grindy? Boy! Wouldn’t that throw the “many” or “most” out of the way.
As for your last question, WHO KNOWS? Anet doesn’t release numbers or reasoning for a population drop. You don’t know, i don’t know. All we have is heresay. The only tell that may have caused a population drop was the Original player experience, hence prompting a change to what we have now. In other words, apparently anet saw wasn’t grind that was causing new players to not continue playing, but the initial start of the game.
If anything, the question can be flipped. What if players left because there was no grind? Can you answer that? You can answer for friends and guildies, but you can’t answer for the game population in total. So no. Those questions can be answered only by who we know, but not as a population in total. Only Anet has those answers, and I doubt we ever will.
GW1 had plenty of grind with its faction grind and grinding for ectos. Then grinding the same mob over and over again for its rare drop.
But there were also many title tracks that were not so grindy. Legendary Vanquisher, for example.
I stopped reading here, because that particular title was so repetitive and boring . . . I gave up.
The only time I vanquished was with the alliance to keep me entertained.
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
This is getting hilarious. A few post ago you where acting basically as if I was crazy for saying exactly this.
So tell, you are just a troll?
And yes if you enjoy doing something multiple times it’s not a grind but as many if not most (so maby most, maybe not) people do consider is a boring grind they obviously don’t have a lot of fun doing it. They do it only for the reward only. (and if they get it they are likely burned out by the game).
I have seen many people leave after getting there legendary and not because they had no goal left as some where interested in another one but once they got there first there where all the bad memories from the last grind and the next goal would mean more of that.
Actually, its mocking your previous statement that multiple times of the same thing =/= grinding, when grinding involves doing the same thing multiple times. Adding a “fun” factor doesn’t change it from not still being a grind. You’re still doing the same thing over and over again repeatedly, and adding sparkly effects or making you go left instead of right, or adding some other “fun” factor doesn’t stop it from being a grind.
Which then leads back to how funny it was in the first place. So if one person doesn’t consider it a grind then that’s ok and they should continue enjoying what they are doing and having fun. But if someone else considers it a grind, they should go to the forums and complain to anet about it and want changes to it because its not fun. Well then, what about the first person? Doesn’t that then ruin his fun? Oh, but because he isn’t posting on the forums about how he is having fun doing it, it’s not important. The only important person is the one who came on to complain. The whole “fun” factor falls flat because what is “fun” is determined by the individual, its subjective.
As for legendaries, yeah, some people left after getting one. Others have all of them, and some even duplicates and are still playing. You didn’t see many, you saw a select few.
(edited by Serophous.9085)