Guild Wars 2

aerial.7021:

Devata.6589:

bad RNG can result in grind so that is completely on topic and about grind. If you make an extreme low drop-rate (RNG) and then put that drop in many places (exactly what Anet does with many items that are ingame) it means the only reasonable way to get them is to grind for gold and buy them. So yes, RNG can be the result of grind so when people talk about RNG they can very well be talking about grind.

That’s how I do things, I prefer certainty rather than random chances if I do X expect Y, not random rotations of garbage, I believe I can dive into my wheely bin for that, mainly because my experiences with luck in real life are absolute 0.

Grinding gold is usually also based on RNG (not the dungeon version but basically all other version people use in GW2) because depending on the drops you earn money. It’s just a little bit more predictable because higher numbers makes percentage more accurate.

Then again, going directly for an item with lets say (for the sake of argument) 25% chance would (easy but wrong math) mean at the second try you have 50% chance, third try 75% and 4th try 100%.

But because this are low numbers it’s not very stage that you might need 8 go’s for it (what crates your feel of bad luck).

On the other hand, when going for multiple things there will also be other items you get the first time, so overall the 25% is accurate. With grinding gold you see this effect better but it’s there in both cases.

But more importantly for this thread. Allowing for more direct and viable ways does not mean the grind gold way has to go. Now that is like the only option so for those who don’t like it it’s a problem but when allowing to also have the more direct approach (that might involve viable RNG) it does not make the grind option go away (for any items that are not account-bound)

Besides those asking for less grind do not only ask for more viable RNG but also for complete X and get Y, That is an even more certain way.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Devata.6589:

~

The company gave us a statement that said something : WE LET SOME PPL PLAY OUR GAME AT BETA (5-10k ppl sample-played mmo for the first time ) . PPL DIDNT UNDERSTAND HOW THE DYNAMIC WORDS WORKED OR WHERE TO GO .THEY KEPT THOSE DATA IT IN THEIR BACKLOG . WHEN THEY HAD TO RELEASE IN CHINA , IN ORDER TO PREVENT THE SAME MISTAKES AND BECAUSE GENERAL THE CHINESE MARKET WANTS SOME GUIDNESS THEY HAD TO MAKE SOME AJUSTMENTS TO THEM

And they have already told us that have plans to evovle/upgrade/fix it in the future .

(When they rleased in China , they released 14 servers + 9 others after 3 days and some others later on i think .
They expected to have lets say 10 million players in the first 3 months . They didnt calculate right , and some servers where stack , while some others where low .
And rather than w8ing an other 4 months , for those Low servers to bloom (you know that when they release the game in the EU-NA , they didnt sold the 3,5 m copies at the first day) , they decided to merge some server , because the majority of the poupaltion love the WvWvW (when they where beta testing in china , they said that they are a humogous numbers of guilds , with trementous amount of ppl that love to play WvWvW .)
That why the said something like : OUR EXPECTATIONS DIDNT COME UP AS WE THOUGHT)

And again how many are the majority ?
At the NA servers , ther are 3 servers atm that are full and a third 1 (called Dragon@@@something that goes from very high to full)
So the servers are not a static thing from the launch as the vocal minority ppl think , but atleast represent ppl that have logged in once per 1 week

They should listen each person opinion , even those with intuition or the vocal minority .
But those ppl with the intuition must use that passve skill to help the game by giving ideas .
Those ppl should never insist over and over again , about what is right .
In their head , their ideas sound fabulous but there are always flaws .
So they must expect others to find those flaws and try to find a middle ground , or if they are truly perfect/booletproof ideas , it will be surely be used ingame .

Your flaw about the removal of the gem store and only offering x-pack every 1 year , might trigger a backlash , where the company wont make enought revenue and has Content Updates every 2-3 months , rather than 2 weeks . That will surely will kitten ppl .

You can try to ask Blizzard , when they reopen the ’’Titan’’ project again at the future , to create your perfect ‘’financial package’’ , or you can try too with WoW atm

Devata.6589:

‘The vocal minority’ statement is just as empty as the ‘you don’t know the real numbers so you can’t say anything about this’ or the ‘this is nor your game, go play another game’ arguments.

If you as a collector , you are ok with paying 15 euros per months + you are FORCED TO PAY WITH REAL MONEY for the extra things for the cash shop (rather than creating a RIOT on their forums too)
, while you have those problem in GW2 (where you can get 100% of everything ingame+cash shop with only gold , with the help of some free gold-guides) , i dont know what to say ….

I have expected you for 9 hours , why so late
I wanted to offer you a corraperation to open a ’’Oracle’’ , for us both the Intuition guys :P

Is it me or did you just want to say something to me personally. Because I don’t see how what you are saying is a comment to my post. Anyways:

Sure it could not work, sure I could be wrong. I could also be right.
Like I gave the Crytek example where my prediction turned out to be right and looking at the income number of GW1 and GW2 comparing the income and then comparing the sales of the GW1’s expansion in percentages to the original sale, then doing the same with what GW2 made in the first year( after that release) it would also suggest that they would have earned more the expansion way.

Then again, I am not only looking at their money, I am also at a customer looking at the quality of the product.

All this does not mean I am some oracle that is always right, i only say this because in fact many see a company (like Anet) as an oracle that is always right while people commenting here have no clue. But the reality it is that we both can be right and both can be wrong. So that sort of arguments to try and end a debate are useless and have no valuable purpose. We all know that our suggestions could work out differently then we expected.

aerial.7021:

Devata.6589:

What in fact could be other interesting way to implement repeatable content without grind. Make something people want to get better at.

Apparently if you believe the hype train on HoT they are attempting just that however not being one to believe in hype I shall reserve judgement until release, it is odd to me that hot (pun ha!) on the heels of its announcement this topic take front and center stage on the forum, I wonder how much grind they’ve added to that ‘challenging content’ they keep touting, I’d wager colossal amounts of grind and left clicking until your mouse breaks.

Well isn’t the ultimate goal of this thread to get it right in HoT? So lets hope it does help to get the good version, not the grind version.

Not sure if it are the ‘challenges’ you are talking about but yeah I can see how that could turn out to be something I would completely love but also to something that is just another boring grind that I completely hate.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Devata.6589:

It’s a conclusion I sort of came to before in this thread, that the so called outcry for gear progression I did not seem to remember but multiple people here talked about was in fact the complain about no end-game. What is of course not the same.

Back in the January of 2013 , the 2 biggest ’’Megathreads’’ (you know that the Mods will direct you post to that) was the ‘’Thief Megathread’’ (if a thief is not used in Higher tier team , then his not Op :P)
and the ’’Progresion’’ , that different ppl have asked about raids and gear progresion(because they play an MMO for the character progresion and not as a Barbie game) and ofc mounts collection :P

Well haven’t seen many of those to be honest but wasn’t very active on the forum back then. I did remember seeing the ‘no endgame’ / ’I’m bored’ threads. Oow and mounts are cosmetics. So maybe they should have added those then? But then again, they would likely have done that as cash-shop items back then, not really adding any value / content / playtime to the game… well other then grinding gold.

Honestly, the problem back then wasn’t that GW2 had launched with no gear progression. It had launched with no progression of any kind, let alone the horizontal stuff we were expecting. Anet did get one thing right when they claimed the ‘effort gap’ between easily accessible exotics and legendaries was too large to motivate people.

It’s not that ascended exists, necessarily, that’s my problem. It’s the fact that they had to make it a vertical progression rather than a horizontal one. It did and always will seem like a cop-out to me.

Masteries may end up fixing that.

According to WoodenPatatoes you are a fool if you think Anet was able to solve the no grind problem and being able to keep people playing anyway. (so grind or leave?)

The complete first minute is kinda interesting about how the game is about cosmetics. Basically WoodenPatatoes explained in one sentence how Anet put GW2 on the market.

And now I am strange for wanting those cosmetics to in fact be in the game, be something to hunt down, be part of the end-game and not be something you buy or grind for in this non-grind mmo? Because.. optional.

I do not always agree with him but yeah this first min said it all and completely fits into this topic.

Btw, I was afraid of one thing.. The mastery being like the WvW points what is the next thing WoodenPatatoes said how Anet explained it would work. If I want to unlock fly abilities I want to do ‘quest’ activities related to flying.. Not again grind some currency (mastery points) to then buy / unlock the ability I want. So if it’s really like the WvW points so far for the no grind.

Oow and that is going to be stuff you will need for exploring, locking you out of things if you do not have it… so even for those who do care for the ‘optional’ argument.. so far for that.

Lets hope it will be more interesting then the WvW points!

Devata.6589:

Then again, going directly for an item with lets say (for the sake of argument) 25% chance would (easy but wrong math) mean at the second try you have 50% chance, third try 75% and 4th try 100%.

But because this are low numbers it’s not very stage that you might need 8 go’s for it (what crates your feel of bad luck).

If it was that even for going for an item 8 times I think I’d choose to go for the item rather than the gold but its not that way, as I said ‘luck’ in my life is a joke but I won’t going telling my tale of woe on a public forum explaining why that is so.

Devata.6589:

Well isn’t the ultimate goal of this thread to get it right in HoT? So lets hope it does help to get the good version, not the grind version.

Oh of course, I have a lovely saying its not my own I guess, “Hope springs eternal” but reality and history teaches something different when it comes to the guild wars franchise, and that lesson is that when it comes down to it they don’t listen really to what the community needs, but they do give what they want.

Devata.6589:

~snip~

Eh, the only problem I really have with his speculations and interpretations is he focuses too much on “hardcore” stuff.

Lheimroo.2947:

Vayne.8563:

sorudo.9054:

Vayne.8563:

sorudo.9054:

Serophous.9085:

Bernie.8674:

Serophous.9085:

GW1 had plenty of grind with its faction grind and grinding for ectos. Then grinding the same mob over and over again for its rare drop.

But there were also many title tracks that were not so grindy. Legendary Vanquisher, for example. Also, I got full sets of BiS end game gear by simply playing through story lines. We didn’t hit level 20 only to discover that we were going to be collecting silk for the next year or so before being able to craft our BiS gear. Plus, there were tricks to reducing your grind in GW1. Soloing high end mobs was feasible with certain builds, and three-manning eight-man content was often effective as well.

Because some elements of not so grindy doesn’t mean there isn’t grind. Its still grind. There are tricks to reducing the grind in gw2 as well. But its still grind.

there is a difference between optional grind and progression grind, GW1 has pretty much no progression grind but plenty of optional grind, GW2 is the exact opposite.

Well that’s not true. Guild Wars 2’s progressive grind is gear progressive grind. Guild Wars 1’s progressive grind was rep grind for skills as well as grind for better chances to salvage and retain lockpicks on chests. All of that is progressive, even if it’s a different kind of progression.

I feel like I have to have ascended armor less than I felt I had to level save yourselves to max level on my imbagon paragon. What you’re stating is an opinion, not a fact.

i don’t think you know what optional grind is, to make it simple for you, it’s when you don’t need it to play the game.
anything lockpick is optional, anything rep is optional.
you don’t need PvE skills to win in the game, better yet, in PvP you can’t even use them in the first place.

in GW2 you NEED a certain armor tier or you’re useless in high/max level areas, you NEED a higher weapon tier or you’re practically useless, you NEED to get your traits or your character is useless.
that’s progression grind, something you can’t avoid.

oh and FYI, that’s a fact, not an opinion.
what you see as needed is beside the point, what is needed by game design, that’s what matters.

In Guild Wars 2, you can finish 90% of the content in greens. You’re not useless in high level max areas, things just take a little longer. People beat liadri naked.

That’s a fact.

That’s a completely facetious argument. The developers do not intend people to stop when they hit green gear. They did not design the game to either encourage or require that kind of behaviour.

But go on, you can say anything is optional. Hell, playing this game is optional. Leveling is optional. You can stay at level one and just pvp, can’t you? It’s a challenge.

Okay so everyone here’s the deal. I’m saying getting a character decked out in greens is not an issue. This guy is saying it is an issue. Feel free to make up your own minds on this matter.

I’ve never once heard anyone before claiming that getting greens at max level was a grind of any kind.

Vayne, if you persist in deliberately misinterpreting people I may as well misinterpret everything you ever said back at you.

You know, if you read english, that isn’t what I said or implied.

DavidH.7380:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Bernie.8674:

How are you getting 5g in two hours? I might get that on guild mission nights, by doing dungeons, or by engaging in concerted farming, but I’ve never gotten anywhere near that by playing casually the way you claim. I must be playing wrong. I’m stagnant somewhere between 20 and 25 gold right now.

World Boss Grand Tour. Log on, find which boss is up next, and do the circuit for an hour. Sell the Ecto from salvaging the rares, sell Silk if I really want to make the money, and sell all the blues and greens.

Drop into Silverwastes if it’s before 1am PST and generally will find an active map. Do events, and sell proceeds much like with the Grand Tour. This one moves faster and can be more lucrative.

Harvest any trees I see there, and then take a moment to go to Pagga’s Waypoint and find the motherlode of Cypress to the west – sell Foxfire Clusters.

I think the lowest I hit was 3.8 g on a night where I forged rares instead of salvaging and selling Ecto.

I never even considered trying to sell blues and green since I couldn’t imagine there was much much market for them at or near the level cap. I’ve just been salvaging them. I assume you mean sell them on the TP, but maybe you are selling to vendors? Do you have any idea who is buying them or why they pay for items that aren’t useful and seem to be in endless supply?

You vendor them, not TP. I thought that was an obvious choice since most blues/greens you can’t profit on much anyway.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

You vendor them, not TP. I thought that was an obvious choice since most blues/greens you can’t profit on much anyway.

You can on some ‘selective’ items, just open the TP and evaluate the price on the item vs what TP will instant buy for, or you can list if you want a few extra silvers.

Lheimroo.2947:

Honestly, the problem back then wasn’t that GW2 had launched with no gear progression. It had launched with no progression of any kind, let alone the horizontal stuff we were expecting. Anet did get one thing right when they claimed the ‘effort gap’ between easily accessible exotics and legendaries was too large to motivate people.

The problem back then was a lot of stuff was plain broken and getting fixed through September. Arah was not even working when it pre-launched for those who preordered. That’s just one case – there were plenty of events which were not triggering properly (some of which are still breaking down… ) and some other things which were just . . . ergh.

Progression wasn’t the elephant in the room on launch. If I recall, it was “dungeons too hard, nerf plz” more. With Ascalonian Catacombs bearing the Mark of Cain on that front.

It’s not that ascended exists, necessarily, that’s my problem. It’s the fact that they had to make it a vertical progression rather than a horizontal one. It did and always will seem like a cop-out to me.

Masteries may end up fixing that.

I wouldn’t have ever designed it that way, I would have designed it as a gear set you get through Fractals – and is only used in Fractals. But that would have kittened absolutely everyone off at the time it was released, so naturally . . . I couldn’t have done it that way.

aerial.7021:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

You vendor them, not TP. I thought that was an obvious choice since most blues/greens you can’t profit on much anyway.

You can on some ‘selective’ items, just open the TP and evaluate the price on the item vs what TP will instant buy for, or you can list if you want a few extra silvers.

Not worth the time, seriously. Also not worth the fees which eat into the profit. Vendor and move on. Or if you’re feeling sassy, break it into crafting components and move on.

Devata.6589:

Grinding gold is usually also based on RNG (not the dungeon version but basically all other version people use in GW2) because depending on the drops you earn money. It’s just a little bit more predictable because higher numbers makes percentage more accurate.

I don’t think so, there is a bare minimum which can be earned without relying on RNG to give you something valuable. I listed my method earlier, and so far it’s worked. I can feed my crafting habit and still keep going upwards in funds steadily. Not quickly but steadily.

For anything except the big-ticket items (Precursor, permanent contracts/access, nodes) . . . I could get it if I wanted it. I just don’t see a reason to, much like I still don’t see a reason to break your back earning Ascended.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

For anything except the big-ticket items (Precursor, permanent contracts/access, nodes) . . . I could get it if I wanted it. I just don’t see a reason to, much like I still don’t see a reason to break your back earning Ascended.

For me its a ‘complete’ thing because the stats be they useful or not outside of fractals the ones I have are not the be all and end all of armor stats, the way I look at it is that I’ve spent countless gold / real world money building exotics because its needed to get to the ascended crafting, but its still not armor done there is still a level higher and I feel my characters are incomplete, if exotics has the same stats as ascended I’d feel a whole lot better about ignoring ascended.

Lheimroo.2947:

Vayne, if you persist in deliberately misinterpreting people I may as well misinterpret everything you ever said back at you.

You know, if you read english, that isn’t what I said or implied.

I wasn’t deliberately doing anything. That’s what I got from what you said. If that’s not what you meant, it absolutely wasn’t clear to me.

Lheimroo.2947:

Honestly, the problem back then wasn’t that GW2 had launched with no gear progression. It had launched with no progression of any kind, let alone the horizontal stuff we were expecting. Anet did get one thing right when they claimed the ‘effort gap’ between easily accessible exotics and legendaries was too large to motivate people.

It’s not that ascended exists, necessarily, that’s my problem. It’s the fact that they had to make it a vertical progression rather than a horizontal one. It did and always will seem like a cop-out to me.

Masteries may end up fixing that.

That actually wasn’t a problem for anyone but the 1%ers, you know that small group of gamers in every MMO title that scream “harder” and “too easy” everytime they say anything at all! Yeah those. I find it funny that now that the game has been out for several years they keep saying the nonsense “this game has done so many things differently” when in fact it hasn’t.

Crafting is the only way to gear because of time gating, there’s a grind to get materials if you can actually find a non-nerfed location, if you mention it in a video or in forums it gets immediately nerfed, which then sends you to grind for gold until that gets nerfed, and this is all while trying to avoid the DR monster (DR is some thing that’s actually taken down whole games and game companies before with a similar billing model as this, you know a real money auction house is basically what’s being run here).

So really many of these things are not new, they certainly aren’t innovative and the fact that they are continuing on tells me that either the mistakes they have made have locked them into this or it’s true that the shareholders are the drivers of development and not the development team.

When it first launched, I could find meaningful treasures in explored treasure boxes, I could get meaningful max level gear and runes/sigils from karma, and karma was easily obtained doing normal activities instead of grinding for everything, oh and if you did need something or just wanted to login and farm, you COULD there wasn’t anything nerfed or holding you back, and there certainly weren’t special lucky accounts that got all the drops, loot was awesome. THAT was the innovative time period before everything converted back to what we’ve all seen before in hundreds of MMO titles out there for years.

Devata.6589:

Is it me or did you just want to say something to me personally. Because I don’t see how what you are saying is a comment to my post. Anyways:

I dont have a clue , what you say too
I am too lost in the translation :P

That same vocal minority that did say people where leveling but they were wrong, they were just a vocal minority (until Anet came with the statement they where losing to many people even before they where max level).

I guess you meant , some ppl predicted that the starting expiriance where not satisfing for the new players , that why the left by the drones ?
And i replayed you with : that the company at the Alpha state did those tests with ppl that havent played MOO before and didnt know how Dynamic Quest works .

Later on i had a hunch , lets call it intuition (:P) that you would ask me why they merged the servers in the Asia . I might be that NPE grind ?
I tried to replay you that Megaserver exist even in those server , but the majority of the guild loves the WvWvW

Devata.6589:

Sure it could not work, sure I could be wrong. I could also be right.
Like I gave the Crytek example where my prediction turned out to be right and looking at the income number of GW1 and GW2 comparing the income and then comparing the sales of the GW1’s expansion in percentages to the original sale, then doing the same with what GW2 made in the first year( after that release) it would also suggest that they would have earned more the expansion way.

Can you link as your posts from that Crytek forum ?

Also can you understand that GW1 vs GW2 have 1 huge factor that distungues them , that is called 2-week Update/Living Story ?
Can you tell me how much those update costs , by calculating the 1 billion per year revenue that a specific company does vs the content updates they release and based on that calculate the cost of the 2-week Updates ?

Devata.6589:

Then again, I am not only looking at there money, I am also at a customer looking at the quality of the product.

All this does not mean I am some oracle that is always right but it only say this because in fact many see a company (like Anet) as an oracle that is always right while people commenting here have no clue. But the reality it is that we both can be right and both can be wrong. So that sort or arguments to try and end a debate are useless and have no valuable purpose. We all know that our suggestions could work our differently then we expected.

True , no1 is right
Heck , even the company implanted flying forms rather than listening to the bickerring of the both sides :P

But its a different thing to ‘’ofer an idea’’ to implanted as content/gameplay inside the game (you can get Acentant rings Amulets Earings just by login in the game) and different one to change a component that will effect the ability/pace to produce those Updates/Gameplay

Devata.6589:

But then again, they would likely have done that as cash-shop items back then, not really adding any value / content / playtime to the game… well other then grinding gold.

They called it Fractals the content for those ppl (back in December of 2012 i think)

I really like our convarsations :P
I hope Vayne take the bait and the 3 of us support this thread to stay in the first page always :P .

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Bernie.8674:

How are you getting 5g in two hours? I might get that on guild mission nights, by doing dungeons, or by engaging in concerted farming, but I’ve never gotten anywhere near that by playing casually the way you claim. I must be playing wrong. I’m stagnant somewhere between 20 and 25 gold right now.

World Boss Grand Tour. Log on, find which boss is up next, and do the circuit for an hour. Sell the Ecto from salvaging the rares, sell Silk if I really want to make the money, and sell all the blues and greens.

I guess that works if you don’t need the ectos and Silk for crafting your ascended gear. It’s kind of hard to earn money to support your crafting when you’re selling the mats you want to buy. I imagine that once I get my ascended gear I’ll have money coming out my ears as well. Also, blues and greens are my primary source of luck. Have you maxed that yet, or are you saying that it’s simply not worth maxing?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Drop into Silverwastes if it’s before 1am PST and generally will find an active map. Do events, and sell proceeds much like with the Grand Tour. This one moves faster and can be more lucrative.

Silverwastes is a complete grind to me. I can’t think of anything I would want to do less than Silverwastes.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Harvest any trees I see there, and then take a moment to go to Pagga’s Waypoint and find the motherlode of Cypress to the west – sell Foxfire Clusters.

This is actually something I did while crafting my Mawdrey. There’s a similar cluster at Waywarde Way. I looked upon this as a chore that I temporarily had to endure to get Mawdrey done (i.e. a grind). I can’t imagine doing it day in and day out.

While I agree that your chore list is trivial to complete, the fact that you’re doing the same exact tasks day in and day out elevates your actions from casual to a way of life in my eyes. You were technically correct when you said that you could get 5g per day without setting foot in dungeons, but the tediousness of your regimen is arguably less attractive than pugging dungeons.

I’d like to point out that I was responding to this statement:

Is gold a grind? I find it hard to say yes when two hours a day will net me roughly 5g without sticking my head into dungeons. If I did dungeons or spent longer, probably could up that to 20g. And I’ll lay out exactly how I do the 5g to anyone who asks – it’s not a secret, it’s not hard, it’s just working with what you have to do.

And you effectively clarified this argument by describing a two hour grind. That’s not so convincing.

Bernie.8674:

And you effectively clarified this argument by describing a two hour grind. That’s not so convincing.

Tobias’s routine wouldn’t count as a grind by the definition Anet has given in this thread.

It would count as one for you, and for me, and seemingly for many others. Which is why Anet’s definition is so troubling; it’s quite self-servingly limited.

Lheimroo.2947:

Bernie.8674:

And you effectively clarified this argument by describing a two hour grind. That’s not so convincing.

Tobias’s routine wouldn’t count as a grind by the definition Anet has given in this thread.

It would count as one for you, and for me, and seemingly for many others. Which is why Anet’s definition is so troubling; it’s quite self-servingly limited.

It’s not self serving … it’s how they defined their goal to have no-grind for the game. It’s not even an unreasonable definition; it’s what many players experienced in the industry would also define as grinding. It’s not simply some definition they concocted to high five themselves around a board room table. Just because it doesn’t suit a subset of QQing players doesn’t make it less relevant or meaningful of a definition.

They don’t design around players ideas of what the game should achieve; that would be a fool’s errand and rather stupid to try to do.

Obtena.7952:

Lheimroo.2947:

Bernie.8674:

And you effectively clarified this argument by describing a two hour grind. That’s not so convincing.

Tobias’s routine wouldn’t count as a grind by the definition Anet has given in this thread.

It would count as one for you, and for me, and seemingly for many others. Which is why Anet’s definition is so troubling; it’s quite self-servingly limited.

It’s not self serving … it’s how they defined their goal to have no-grind for the game. It’s not even an unreasonable definition; it’s what many players experienced in the industry would also define as grinding. It’s not simply some definition they concocted to high five themselves around a board room table. Just because it doesn’t suit a subset of QQing players doesn’t make it less relevant or meaningful of a definition.

They don’t design around players ideas of what the game should achieve; that would be a fool’s errand and rather stupid to try to do.

Listen, Anet’s definition of grind completely disregards the quantity of work that has to be done to obtain something; it’s solely concerned with variety.

If they need you to collect 20,000 candy corn, it wouldn’t be a grind by their definition if they gave you as much as two separate ways to get the mat. No matter the subjective experience of repetition or tedious robotic play.

My definition of grind isn’t unreasonable either, it does include a consideration of total amount of effort required, and the tediousness or lack of excitement in the play required.

Lheimroo.2947:

Obtena.7952:

Lheimroo.2947:

Bernie.8674:

And you effectively clarified this argument by describing a two hour grind. That’s not so convincing.

Tobias’s routine wouldn’t count as a grind by the definition Anet has given in this thread.

It would count as one for you, and for me, and seemingly for many others. Which is why Anet’s definition is so troubling; it’s quite self-servingly limited.

It’s not self serving … it’s how they defined their goal to have no-grind for the game. It’s not even an unreasonable definition; it’s what many players experienced in the industry would also define as grinding. It’s not simply some definition they concocted to high five themselves around a board room table. Just because it doesn’t suit a subset of QQing players doesn’t make it less relevant or meaningful of a definition.

They don’t design around players ideas of what the game should achieve; that would be a fool’s errand and rather stupid to try to do.

Listen, Anet’s definition of grind completely disregards the quantity of work that has to be done to obtain something; it’s solely concerned with variety.

If they need you to collect 20,000 candy corn, it wouldn’t be a grind by their definition if they gave you as much as two separate ways to get the mat. No matter the subjective experience of repetition or tedious robotic play.

My definition of grind isn’t unreasonable either, it does include a consideration of total amount of effort required, and the tediousness or lack of excitement in the play required.

That’s nice, but you don’t design the game, they do so your definition doesn’t really matter for anything except how it affects your decision to play the game. Instead, your using it to justify how the game should change to accommodate your needs. That’s not how it works buddy.

Obtena.7952:

That’s nice, but you don’t design the game, they do so your definition doesn’t really matter for anything except how it affects your decision to play the game. Instead, your using it to justify how the game should change to accommodate your needs. That’s not how it works buddy.

I’m expressing a viewpoint that seems relatively common, given the titles of the threads on the general discussion forum for the last couple of weeks and months.

Anet can use that or not; it’s up to them.

What I am using my definition.. my subjective experience of grind as an excuse for is this: not playing the game as frequently as I once did.

I really don’t care any more. Anet, like I said, can try to get me as a customer or not. That’s up to them. As it is, with this particular definition in the Anet lexicon, I foresee lots of grind threads in the future after HoT’s release. And I’m not buying it till proven wrong, kay?

Lheimroo.2947:

I’m expressing a viewpoint that seems relatively common …. Anet can use that or not; it’s up to them.

That’s the problem with this thread … no one can say this is a common issue, simply based on forum activity. Anyways, Anet already semi-closed the lid on this. They did provide a response to it within this thread. People are just campaigning; nothing relevant has been added for a while.

Lheimroo.2947:

I really don’t care any more.

No, you do care … that’s why you’re still posting in a topic that’s 23 pages long. Don’t pretend like it doesn’t matter to you and you don’t wish for the game to be something it’s not.

Lheimroo.2947:

And I’m not buying it till proven wrong, kay?

No problem with that … that’s how it’s SUPPOSED to work. I encourage people that can’t hack the game to not play it because it’s dead easy and aimed at casuals. The bar is low enough.

Is there lvl 80 map with branded or destroyers to farm? Hint what lack. Like previous example : 3light, 3 medium, 2(3)heavy. I play day by day mostly doin world bosses, dailies, wvw, sometimes pvp. I have exo gear and I don’t need more. Mastery grind there I go.

Obtena.7952:

I encourage people that can’t hack the game to not play it because it’s dead easy and aimed at casuals. The bar is low enough.

Your true colors at last.. elitist bullkitten.

There’s a game called Wildstar you really oughta check out, Obtena.

It was virtually designed with the “No True Scotsman” phallacy at it’s heart.

There is nothing elitist about telling people to not play a game that doesn’t suit their style of play because the honest truth is that the game is highly unlikely to change to fit what you want to see it do. You shouldn’t be offended that something in a game for casuals doesn’t appeal to you; that just tells you who you are as a gamer. People should learn from that instead of denying what it means. The Dungeon crowd have finally caught on to this fact, it’s simply a matter of time before other types of players learn it to; the targeted market for this game doesn’t only affect Dungeons, it’s just less obvious in the other parts.

Lheimroo.2947:

Bernie.8674:

And you effectively clarified this argument by describing a two hour grind. That’s not so convincing.

Tobias’s routine wouldn’t count as a grind by the definition Anet has given in this thread.

Actually, I think it does:

- Grind: To us, grind means being required to do the same boring activity over and over again. In particular, the biggest reference we’re talking about here in traditional MMO’s is having to kill the same creatures over and over again to farm for levels or gear.

Tobias’s gold making routine involved killing the same set of creatures, running the same set of events, and farming the same tree clusters every single night. It is exactly the definition that ANet gave. The only debatable aspect is whether or not you’re required to do it. If you want a full set of ascended gear in under a year then I’d say the answer is, “yes.” Many disagree with me, but I have yet to see a convincing argument to the contrary.

It’s not really a requirement just because you want it. Requirement is defined by need, not want. Even if someone does need it for higher level fractals, it’s something that comes time… you don’t need a full set of Ascended once you decide your going to conquer fractals. You can actually start your Fractals journey with more Ascended gear than you need.

If there is any complaint, I would say that earning Ascended gear is outside the scope of doing fractals, which is not arguably the only place it’s NEEDED. Unless I’m mistaken, you don’t get Ascended mats in Fractal rewards. That’s a big issue.

Obtena.7952:

It’s not really a requirement just because you want it. Requirement is defined by need, not want. Even if someone does need it for higher level fractals, it’s something that comes time… you don’t need a full set of Ascended once you decide your going to conquer fractals.

By that definition I don’t even need rare gear. Someone could carry me through fractals and/or dungeons for a few months until I naturally gathered the gold, mats, and laurels to deck myself out. How realistic is that, though?

Bernie.8674:

Obtena.7952:

It’s not really a requirement just because you want it. Requirement is defined by need, not want. Even if someone does need it for higher level fractals, it’s something that comes time… you don’t need a full set of Ascended once you decide your going to conquer fractals.

By that definition I don’t even need rare gear. Someone could carry me through fractals and/or dungeons for a few months until I naturally gathered the gold, mats, and laurels to deck myself out. How realistic is that, though?

That’s right … you DON’T need rare gear. Do you get it yet?

It’s the same for the Dungeon guys who complain that people aren’t using zerker gear … players don’t NEED it to do the content. The game has not been concepted or designed to force anyone to do things they don’t want or in a way they don’t want to do it. That’s how dungeons works, that’s how Ascended armor works too. It’s almost how EVERYTHING works in this game.

Obtena.7952:

There is nothing elitist about telling people to not play a game that doesn’t suit their style of play because the honest truth is that the game is highly unlikely to change to fit what you want to see it do. You shouldn’t be offended that something in a game for casuals doesn’t appeal to you; that just tells you who you are as a gamer. People should learn from that instead of denying what it means. The Dungeon crowd have finally caught on to this fact, it’s simply a matter of time before other types of players learn it to; the targeted market for this game doesn’t only affect Dungeons, it’s just less obvious in the other parts.

This effect actually concerns me there are certain things that happen to a game when its developers make unreasonable requests of its customers, be that a justified view of unreasonable grind or not, it’s happened to WoW, Perfect World, Star Trek OnLine, Aion, Lineage 2, Guild Wars 1 (yes that’s right) etc. the list goes on and on, its called ‘private server’. When this happens the official servers get deserted in favor of more fare game mechanics, because they don’t just emulate the standard servers but also make alterations to how they operate which normally has by far more fare drop rates.

All because ‘grind’. I’ll put my hand up and be honest I’ve ran for my own personal use a server for PW & Wow, why? because I wanted to experience the entirety of the game, and not have to live 2 life times of grinding at my keyboard.

It concerns me because I brought the game I’d rather play on official servers.

Obtena.7952:

There is nothing elitist about telling people to not play a game that doesn’t suit their style of play because the honest truth is that the game is highly unlikely to change to fit what you want to see it do.

Here’s the thing: the game that they described in their manifesto and even in this thread does suit my style. The problem is that the execution is not in line with their stated philosophy. That’s where the discrepancy lies. I have no problem following the advice you gave. Blizzard turned their entire end game into raiding, raiding, raiding, and more raiding, and they made no apologies about it. That’s why I’m back in Guild Wars again. I played Guild Wars 1, and I completely agreed that no grinding was required to play through end game content. However, once I completed that content and realized that no more was forthcoming until Guild Wars 2, I had no incentive to stick around. I had my “Guild Hall Smells of Rich Mahogany” title, and all that was left for me was to remain drunk for a really long time, idle in the luck circles, repeatedly send my henchmen on the same three quests over and over to farm faction, and run the same dungeons every day to open chests. That’s why I played WoW instead for five years.

Guild Wars 2, in its current state, is very different. Everything is a grind or a chore: crafting, traits, dungeons, world bosses, etc., etc. This is the exact opposite of the game that ArenaNet stated they were making. The fact that they keep saying the right things gives me hope that they will eventually fix their game.

Obtena.7952:

Lheimroo.2947:

Bernie.8674:

And you effectively clarified this argument by describing a two hour grind. That’s not so convincing.

Tobias’s routine wouldn’t count as a grind by the definition Anet has given in this thread.

It would count as one for you, and for me, and seemingly for many others. Which is why Anet’s definition is so troubling; it’s quite self-servingly limited.

It’s not self serving … it’s how they defined their goal to have no-grind for the game. It’s not even an unreasonable definition; it’s what many players experienced in the industry would also define as grinding. It’s not simply some definition they concocted to high five themselves around a board room table. Just because it doesn’t suit a subset of QQing players doesn’t make it less relevant or meaningful of a definition.

They don’t design around players ideas of what the game should achieve; that would be a fool’s errand and rather stupid to try to do.

Anytime you use words, you must consider what it means to everyone else. This is the basis for communication, a shared understanding.

Another point is, when designing a game you should absolutely consider what players think and how they see something.

If the purpose of anet’s anti grind philosopy is.that players don’t feel like playing the game is grindy, then they should definately ask themselves, what players think is a grind, and why, and how much is too much. The players definition in this case is more important than what the devs think it means.

Its like you want to impress a girl, so she likes you. You think Flashy clothes are impressive, and hand design the flashiest clothes ever. But turns out your definition of impressive and hers are different, therefor you fail at your real goal.

Likewise anet must consider what players think of as grindy, if their goal is for players to not feel grind

If their goal is for devs not to feel grind, then they can totally ignore players opinions on the.matter.

phys.7689:

Another point is, when designing a game you should absolutely consider what players think and how they see something.

No, when designing a game, they should consider how the KIND of players they want to target think and how they see the game. This is a big difference from what you say above because no game can attract EVER type of player. The best any game dev team can do it say “We should try to make this game good for player type X”. I think Anet has done that rather well because this game is obviously targeting what I refer to as the ‘casual’ player and doing almost everything it can to not target ‘hardcore’ market, at least in PVE.

Lheimroo.2947:

Bernie.8674:

And you effectively clarified this argument by describing a two hour grind. That’s not so convincing.

Tobias’s routine wouldn’t count as a grind by the definition Anet has given in this thread.

It would count as one for you, and for me, and seemingly for many others. Which is why Anet’s definition is so troubling; it’s quite self-servingly limited.

I don’t count it as a grind, mostly because I could be doing anything else if I decided not to earn Gold that day. I often do, because I’ll drop into WvW for two or three hours. I’m not doing it now because . . . well, SBI. Nuff said. Silverwastes pretty closely scratches that itch for WvW, though I only sit through maybe one and a half cycles.

I barely care if you consider it a grind or not, really. It was asked how I do it and I answered. It’s a routine I use because it’s what I find interesting enough to do instead of going “meh, log in – log out, call it a night”.

I don’t need to Gold, I don’t need the components, all I need is something to do. This fits the bill.

Bernie.8674:

Tobias’s gold making routine involved killing the same set of creatures, running the same set of events, and farming the same tree clusters every single night. It is exactly the definition that ANet gave. The only debatable aspect is whether or not you’re required to do it. If you want a full set of ascended gear in under a year then I’d say the answer is, “yes.” Many disagree with me, but I have yet to see a convincing argument to the contrary.

Who said it’s the same set of creatures and events? Better question: Who said I do this every night? I didn’t say that. I very clearly did not say that, because I don’t log in every night. Some nights I crack open Settlers of Catan and sit some friends down for a game, or we bring out our MTG decks and go for a three-player free-for-all, or we play one of the other games I bought.

Some nights I just go straight to bed, as I need to be up 7 hours after I get home.

The nights I do play? I’ll do the routine I described if nothing else comes up. If the guild does something like dungeons I want to play? I’ll do those. If they want to run a Fractal run? I’ll swallow a nice big glass of wine to get myself willing, and then go do it. If they feel like doing world completion? I’ll grab an alt and tag along, if I need it.

I got lots of stuff I could be doing. Why, oh why, does it have to be a grind no matter what I describe I want to do? It really starts to smell like someone looking for an excuse to call things grind.

. . . but that could be the leftover Risen parts in my boots.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Bernie.8674:

How are you getting 5g in two hours? I might get that on guild mission nights, by doing dungeons, or by engaging in concerted farming, but I’ve never gotten anywhere near that by playing casually the way you claim. I must be playing wrong. I’m stagnant somewhere between 20 and 25 gold right now.

World Boss Grand Tour. Log on, find which boss is up next, and do the circuit for an hour. Sell the Ecto from salvaging the rares, sell Silk if I really want to make the money, and sell all the blues and greens.

Drop into Silverwastes if it’s before 1am PST and generally will find an active map. Do events, and sell proceeds much like with the Grand Tour. This one moves faster and can be more lucrative.

Harvest any trees I see there, and then take a moment to go to Pagga’s Waypoint and find the motherlode of Cypress to the west – sell Foxfire Clusters.

I think the lowest I hit was 3.8 g on a night where I forged rares instead of salvaging and selling Ecto.

You gave a pretty accurate view of how many people play this game… Actively grinding gold. You just proved the reason for the existence of this thread.

It’s only a little strange that you do post in in an attempt to show how there is no need to grind, or you would not consider it grind.

Devata.6589:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Bernie.8674:

How are you getting 5g in two hours? I might get that on guild mission nights, by doing dungeons, or by engaging in concerted farming, but I’ve never gotten anywhere near that by playing casually the way you claim. I must be playing wrong. I’m stagnant somewhere between 20 and 25 gold right now.

World Boss Grand Tour. Log on, find which boss is up next, and do the circuit for an hour. Sell the Ecto from salvaging the rares, sell Silk if I really want to make the money, and sell all the blues and greens.

Drop into Silverwastes if it’s before 1am PST and generally will find an active map. Do events, and sell proceeds much like with the Grand Tour. This one moves faster and can be more lucrative.

Harvest any trees I see there, and then take a moment to go to Pagga’s Waypoint and find the motherlode of Cypress to the west – sell Foxfire Clusters.

I think the lowest I hit was 3.8 g on a night where I forged rares instead of salvaging and selling Ecto.

You gave a pretty accurate view of how many people play this game… Actively grinding gold. You just proved the reason for the existence of this thread.

It’s only a little strange that you do post in in an attempt to show how there is no need to grind, or you would not consider it grind.

Except we don’t know how most people play this game, that’s an assumption and not necessarily one that I would agree with.

I think most people are so casual, they wouldn’t know how to go about grinding gold if they wanted to. I think most people log in, do a few things, maybe a few dailies, maybe hang out with their guild…they kill some stuff, they log off.

I don’t think most people are farmers.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Can you link as your posts from that Crytek forum ?

Also can you understand that GW1 vs GW2 have 1 huge factor that distungues them , that is called 2-week Update/Living Story ?
Can you tell me how much those update costs , by calculating the 1 billion per year revenue that a specific company does vs the content updates they release and based on that calculate the cost of the 2-week Updates ?

For the first.. why you don’t believe me?
http://www.crysis.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=7830&start=60

“Also can you understand that GW1 vs GW2 have 1 huge factor that distungues them , that is called 2-week Update/Living Story ?" Yeah that might have been the problem. The different approach, not expansion approach but bi-weekly updates and then financing the game with the cash-shop to support this approach.

“Can you tell me how much those update costs , by calculating the 1 billion per year revenue that a specific company does vs the content updates they release and based on that calculate the cost of the 2-week Updates ?”
Does it really matter, we already did see that they could have earned more with yearly expansion looking at the numbers. Btw something I don’t think you will see when using the sales of the HoT expansion as base for your calculations as I think they will have lower sales then what expansions would have gotten if they didn’t go for this approach, simply because they did scare people away that won’t come back. Some irreversible damage has already been done.

Apart from my TP marketeering activities, I can make upwards of a reliable 20g on a productive, long night of running dungeons and hitting the worldboss train. Sales of drops/breakdown mats provide variation to ‘per hour’ yields, though my records indicate that the variation is typically in the range of 18-43% over the static earning, with very occasional spikes reflecting unusually valuable drops. (Example: I got an Entropy hammer that sold for 8g50s 17 days ago, and a Scepter of the Highborn that sold for 1g10s 5 days ago).

Typically, my game sessions aren’t entirely spent doing things that generate gold at maximized efficiency. Some nights, I do nothing but putz around roleplaying with mah frenz and mah wife.

Sometimes, I make no gold day to day for weeks at a stretch when I just don’t feel like doing a dang thing.

Other times, I have lots of time and nothing otherwise grabbing me to do and I’ll go and farm up 30g a night for several nights in a row.

/shrug

I consider myself to be a fairly casual player, though there’s a distinct possibility that I’m not really all that casual at all in certain regards. I dunno; its hard to have an accurate self-view about such things.

Obtena.7952:

Lheimroo.2947:

I’m expressing a viewpoint that seems relatively common …. Anet can use that or not; it’s up to them.

That’s the problem with this thread … no one can say this is a common issue, simply based on forum activity. Anyways, Anet already semi-closed the lid on this. They did provide a response to it within this thread. People are just campaigning; nothing relevant has been added for a while.

Lheimroo.2947:

I really don’t care any more.

No, you do care … that’s why you’re still posting in a topic that’s 23 pages long. Don’t pretend like it doesn’t matter to you and you don’t wish for the game to be something it’s not.

Lheimroo.2947:

And I’m not buying it till proven wrong, kay?

No problem with that … that’s how it’s SUPPOSED to work. I encourage people that can’t hack the game to not play it because it’s dead easy and aimed at casuals. The bar is low enough.

What is your problem Obtena?
There is grind, people feel that grind, GW2 is known for it’s grind and so people give feedback about that. It has noting to do with QQ, it has nothing to do with GW2’s ‘No grind philosophy’.

It’s what people feel and so they talk about it. Not sure why you have a problem with that.

Oow and I am not so sure that is are casuals that this game still is attracting. It are more likely those who are fine with just grinding for everything. Sure that does not require a lot of skill so if that is how you define casual thats fine but I would see the term casual as a little more then ‘no’ skill. It could be those who care more for cosmetics, or those who don’t care for BiS or those who don’t care for being the best in everything or those who will not play 24/7.. But really the biggest group the game is really still attacking mostly to is those who are fine with grinding a way and the more time / less life you have to do so the better.

There are other subgroups left like those who simply complete all the grind and like the WvW or the social interaction with the guild but I don’t feel the game is now really appealing for the big group of casuals.. no it’s probably even more appealing for the hardcore grinders.
So what is casual.

Devata.6589:

What is your problem Obtena?

It’s pretty simple; people can’t accuse Anet for making a grindy game based on whatever definition suits that purpose. That’s just self-serving justification and to expect Anet to even consider changing something in the game based on a subset of players personal pre-dispositions is nonsense; the game can’t be everything to everyone. Anet did not design the game around some random players arbitrary definition of what grindy means. People can’t seem to frame their ‘discussion’ around Anet’s clarification. I help with that.

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Bernie.8674:

How are you getting 5g in two hours? I might get that on guild mission nights, by doing dungeons, or by engaging in concerted farming, but I’ve never gotten anywhere near that by playing casually the way you claim. I must be playing wrong. I’m stagnant somewhere between 20 and 25 gold right now.

World Boss Grand Tour. Log on, find which boss is up next, and do the circuit for an hour. Sell the Ecto from salvaging the rares, sell Silk if I really want to make the money, and sell all the blues and greens.

Drop into Silverwastes if it’s before 1am PST and generally will find an active map. Do events, and sell proceeds much like with the Grand Tour. This one moves faster and can be more lucrative.

Harvest any trees I see there, and then take a moment to go to Pagga’s Waypoint and find the motherlode of Cypress to the west – sell Foxfire Clusters.

I think the lowest I hit was 3.8 g on a night where I forged rares instead of salvaging and selling Ecto.

You gave a pretty accurate view of how many people play this game… Actively grinding gold. You just proved the reason for the existence of this thread.

It’s only a little strange that you do post in in an attempt to show how there is no need to grind, or you would not consider it grind.

Except we don’t know how most people play this game, that’s an assumption and not necessarily one that I would agree with.

I think most people are so casual, they wouldn’t know how to go about grinding gold if they wanted to. I think most people log in, do a few things, maybe a few dailies, maybe hang out with their guild…they kill some stuff, they log off.

I don’t think most people are farmers.

I said many, not most. I think many because while the game had very different type of players at the beginning many (we know that as a fact) did leave. So why? Well maybe because they didn’t like to grind for everything they wanted to earn in the game? So some of those who left will be indeed the ones that login do a few things while taking with the guild and log out again (the casuals you talk about, while the reason they are still here imho is the social interaction), the WvW people and then of course those who are fine with, or even like, the grind. That is a big group because we all can see them (EotM, champ trains, SL) so yeah.. many.

“I think most people are so casual, they wouldn’t know how to go about grinding gold if they wanted to.” It’s not like you need skill or can’t be a ‘casual’ to grind.. Ask and people will tell you to run with the zerg in location x, y or z. At that moment it’s just brainlessly running along and spamming some buttons. No problem for a ‘casual’ to do so, the question is however if he will like it and stay doing it.

Devata.6589:

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Can you link as your posts from that Crytek forum ?

Also can you understand that GW1 vs GW2 have 1 huge factor that distungues them , that is called 2-week Update/Living Story ?
Can you tell me how much those update costs , by calculating the 1 billion per year revenue that a specific company does vs the content updates they release and based on that calculate the cost of the 2-week Updates ?

For the first.. why you don’t believe me?
http://www.crysis.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=7830&start=60

You linked me a dead posts …
Alteast link me your posts history
Even in Crysis 3 or 4 forums

Devata.6589:

Oow and I am not so sure that is are casuals that this game still is attracting. It are more likely those who are fine with just grinding for everything. Sure that does not require a lot of skill so if that is how you define casual thats fine but I would see the term casual as a little more then ‘no’ skill. It could be those who care more for cosmetics, or those who don’t care for BiS or those who don’t care for being the best in everything or those who will not play 24/7.. But really the biggest group the game is really still attacking mostly to is those who are fine with grinding a way and the more time / less life you have to do so the better.

But YOU where saying that you where a Collector
In order to collect everything ingame , you HAVE to play multiply Hours to achiv that goal .
You said that you where fine with some friendly farming , such as to grind over and over again a Harcore content for a skin , but MAGICALY NOW you are not ok with wasting more time ingame ?

Lets have some nice convarsations for the next 2weeks :P

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

What is your problem Obtena?

It’s pretty simple; people can’t accuse Anet for making a grindy game based on whatever definition suits that purpose. That’s just self-serving justification and to expect Anet to even consider changing something in the game based on a subset of players personal pre-dispositions is nonsense; the game can’t be everything to everyone. Anet did not design the game around some random players arbitrary definition of what grindy means. People can’t seem to frame their ‘discussion’ around Anet’s clarification. I help with that.

People find the game grindy, many people do. So they tell it on the forum and even explain what they consider grind. What else can they do?

And in all honestly I also think you are downplaying the hole thing when you say “Anet did not design the game around some random players arbitrary definition of what grindy means.”. Many people find the game grindy, names as ‘grind wars’ don’t come out of nowhere. We all also know many people grind or do you want to act as if champ-trains never existed, or those grinding in EotM? We all know there is a lot of grinding going on and all that grind might not be the grind Anet tries to prevent with there ‘no-grind philosophy’ but ‘some random players arbitrary definition of what grindy means.’ it’s just downplaying of what is really going on. Like if this is some totally unknown definition of grind a few people talk about. That is just nonsense.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Devata.6589:

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Can you link as your posts from that Crytek forum ?

Also can you understand that GW1 vs GW2 have 1 huge factor that distungues them , that is called 2-week Update/Living Story ?
Can you tell me how much those update costs , by calculating the 1 billion per year revenue that a specific company does vs the content updates they release and based on that calculate the cost of the 2-week Updates ?

For the first.. why you don’t believe me?
http://www.crysis.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=7830&start=60

You linked me a dead posts …
Alteast link me your posts history
Even in Crysis 3 or 4 forums

Devata.6589:

Oow and I am not so sure that is are casuals that this game still is attracting. It are more likely those who are fine with just grinding for everything. Sure that does not require a lot of skill so if that is how you define casual thats fine but I would see the term casual as a little more then ‘no’ skill. It could be those who care more for cosmetics, or those who don’t care for BiS or those who don’t care for being the best in everything or those who will not play 24/7.. But really the biggest group the game is really still attacking mostly to is those who are fine with grinding a way and the more time / less life you have to do so the better.

But YOU where saying that you where a Collector
In order to collect everything ingame , you HAVE to play multiply Hours to achiv that goal .
You said that you where fine with some friendly farming , such as to grind over and over again a Harcore content for a skin , but MAGICALY NOW you are not ok with wasting more time ingame ?

Lets have some nice convarsations for the next 2weeks :P

Try copy and paste the link to your url. Then it seems to work when clicking the link it doesn’t.

I like to collect stuff, does not always have to be everything but usually a sub-group of things. More important is it then when I see something I like I can go for that (in a direct way) and then the next thing and the next and the next.. combine that and you are collecting aren’t you?

“You said that you where fine with some friendly farming , such as to grind over and over again a Harcore content for a skin” I said I wanted to grind hardcore content over and over for a skin?

" but MAGICALY NOW you are not ok with wasting more time ingame ?" I said I was not oke with wasting more time ingame?

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

What is your problem Obtena?

It’s pretty simple; people can’t accuse Anet for making a grindy game based on whatever definition suits that purpose. That’s just self-serving justification and to expect Anet to even consider changing something in the game based on a subset of players personal pre-dispositions is nonsense; the game can’t be everything to everyone. Anet did not design the game around some random players arbitrary definition of what grindy means. People can’t seem to frame their ‘discussion’ around Anet’s clarification. I help with that.

People find the game grindy, many people do. So they tell it on the forum and even explain what they consider grind. What else can they do?

And in all honestly I also think you are downplaying the hole thing when you say “Anet did not design the game around some random players arbitrary definition of what grindy means.”. Many people find the game grindy, names as ‘grind wars’ don’t come out of nowhere. We all also know many people grind or do you want to act as if champ-trains never existed, or those grinding in EotM? We all know there is a lot of grinding going on and all that grind might not be the grind Anet tries to prevent with there ‘no-grind philosophy’ but ‘some random players arbitrary definition of what grindy means.’ it’s just downplaying of what is really going on. Like if this is some totally unknown definition of grind a few people talk about. That is just nonsense.

Are you freaking serious ?
Champ Trains and Eotm Trains where/are the MOST REWARDING things !!
That why ppl did them
It was like a super farming spots , if you calculate the time spent vs the rewards …..
Who dont want to maximize their rewards for less time ? like some ppl that want everything by playing less ?

Edit: I will leave you alone to run the thread as you wish . As a 10 years healer i have build up some endurance vs all kind of ’’Dps’ers’’ and how to copy-cat their personality to use it against them , and every person is precious with their immagination they can offer in the future (just like 1 random person that created the DOTA maps that we have today) .

But your decision about ‘’ the x-pack will sold less copies’’ it might true , just because most ppl wanted to try a game without healers and try something new or various others reasons (they are called badwagon that try various MMos) .
But i have an Intuition that you will use the less box sales to justifie your personality and try to ‘’controlll the old gg’’ i the future .
But i will be here again to have discusion about that :P