Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
"No-grind philosophy"
I will agree with DavidH that what is missing in this game is a middle ground.
Things are either relatively easy to get or dishearteningly hard. The problem’s compounded by most of what’s considered ‘the best/most desirable stuff to have’ being accessible least randomly by just getting gold .. and farming gold is an activity which Devata and myself find fundamentally uninspiring, and neither of us, with our playstyle, I expect, accumulate it very fast.
I don’t actually accumulate it very fast either, when you consider what it would cost for Dusk. Or even The Lover if I wanted a ponybow. I’m just okay with that, because almost every other skin I could buy, I can afford to. I just don’t want to.
They could have doubled and tripled the token costs of the dungeon sets and I would seriously have been fine with it.
Nah, I’m preferring where it is right now. I don’t want to get bored of a dungeon before I get my armor from it. Not to mention if I actually luck out and need the Gift for a legendary.
But gold? Sure, it’s accessible everywhere.. but it’s needed for EVERYTHING. It creates this incentive to just go hard and do what it takes to get it as quick as possible, and it still ends up feeling like it’s not enough.
. . . meh.
You could gear up in Exotics for one character for less than 50 gold, if you don’t do Temple Armor. If you do you can do it in under 10 gold, since you’re mostly buying weapons.
The champ trains existed for a reason; people feel this compulsion from the game design: get gold, get better stuff. And yet it results in the most mind-numbingly samey gameplay.. unchallenging encounters repeated ad naseum.
Ah, nope. The champs trains existed because of “Monthly Champion Slayer”, “Monthly Event”, and so forth. It was seriously the least stressful way to do it, and it just moved from wherever it was easier to wherever it was more profitable depending on what people wanted.
Honestly I think the trains in Cursed Shore and Frostgorge Sound are just out for getting the named Exotics out of the coffers/strongboxes there. Because there’s always a demand for them, especially that hammer. What’s it called, Entropy?
Not only that, but with prices fluctuating and gradually rising continually, it replicates the same feeling I had such a problem with in WoW and other gear-grind-centric games.. the feeling that if you aren’t moving forward full speed you’re falling behind.
It helps if you just set your sights on functional and put the thought of “awesome” on the back burner. No, seriously, it does help if you don’t try to set a quota for your periods of play and just realize you are . . . in fact . . . always taking a step towards it. It’s a mental exercise worth pursuing.
The Liadri mini and title.. a straight out skill challenge. —- ‘Blazing Light’ is a wicked awesome thing to have, and it was never a grind.
It was to me, I’m sorry to say. That place was not friendly to my play style and forced me outside of the nice box where I have fun playing the game. It was a chore, not fun, which is why it felt like a grind and made me really stop and go “nope, I don’t want this that bad, enjoy everyone else . . . I’m off to go deforest Orr again”.
It’s very much a “your mileage may vary” thing.
At least with dungeons, fractals, pvp, Liadri, at least it’s challenging or mentally stimulating. And you get an item directly through skill, with relatively little repetition.
Or, if you don’t get it, relatively lots of repetition. Or if you cheese it like people learned how to . . . no skill at all and just following a manual. I mean, I don’t like using walkthroughs to figure out how to beat something. I like to give it a shot first, and if I can’t do it . . .then figure it out. Otherwise, what’s the point? It’s like I’m not actually playing the game – I’m playing it for someone else.
1/2
you seriously believe champ trains were about champion daily/monthlies? no it was about gold. more 2-3 times as much gold as you make now in 2 hours
(8-12 gold) with less effort than your own method.
The champ train didnt die when champ slayer wasnt in the monthly, it didnt die towards the end of the month. It was about effecient gold grinding.
also strictly speaking it often takes skill to follow an manual. most things in life its not knowing what to do, its gaining the skill to actually execute it. That said its fun to come up with your own methods, but that doesnt diminish the skill required to pull off something even with instruction.
There are 8 minute fights in other games where people can watch videos, and know exactly what to do, and still need to build skills at executing it. So still requires skill, if its well designed.
There are 8 minute fights in other games where people can watch videos, and know exactly what to do, and still need to build skills at executing it. So still requires skill, if its well designed.
These are the types of fights I like the least…not because it requires skill. That’s not my issue.
I don’t love going out of the game to have a watch videos to do things. I prefer to solve things on my own merits. I still don’t have all the badges in Silverwastes, because I’m missing one and refuse to look at Dulfy.
Memorizing what to do and practicing it till you can do it like a trained monkey might be challenging to some people…but I personally don’t see it that way.
Being the first guy to figure out what to do, or figuring out a different way to do stuff is far more challenging.
you seriously believe champ trains were about champion daily/monthlies? no it was about gold. more 2-3 times as much gold as you make now in 2 hours
(8-12 gold) with less effort than your own method.
The champ train didnt die when champ slayer wasnt in the monthly, it didnt die towards the end of the month. It was about effecient gold grinding.
It’s actually pretty inefficient gold grinding, in Queensdale. And it existed before champ loot bags, so you should probably think twice about what I said. In Frostgorge or Cursed Shore? Sure, I could see it being more about potential gold gain – even before the champ bags. I know the Penitent/Shelter was all about how easily you could have loot bags rain down on your head.
As for the Queensdale Train? It never died towards the end of the month. In fact it got bigger as more people flooded in to repeat out the achievements. I, personally, would do it that way. I got to know, loosely, about a dozen or so others who would be doing it that time of month.
also strictly speaking it often takes skill to follow an manual. most things in life its not knowing what to do, its gaining the skill to actually execute it. That said its fun to come up with your own methods, but that doesnt diminish the skill required to pull off something even with instruction.
Of course it doesn’t diminish the skill. But it does cheapen the achievement in a way, to have someone walk you through how to do it. So you still have to actually do it yourself, sure . . . but there is a lot more value internally in doing it yourself. Without the help. Figuring it out yourself.
There are 8 minute fights in other games where people can watch videos, and know exactly what to do, and still need to build skills at executing it. So still requires skill, if its well designed.
Sure. I watch Monster Hunter videos about how to greatsword Tigrex in the face so you never get in danger. Heck of a lot of skill needed, indeed. (And I recommend watching some of those fights for those who want to see active combat done well.)
But it’s a different matter entirely when you have the manual step by step next to you versus. And the type of game matters a lot too. Twitch action games do still require you to have the skills built up, either that or you keep doing it until you luck through it. Others, not so much . . .
. . . then there’s the ones which are . . .
Just . . . look up the Demifiend fight in Digital Devil Saga. This kind of challenge? It’s not about how to fight out of a manual, it’s not about reading the pattern and getting through it like it can be for a platformer boss. No, this is about knowing your enemy, knowing how to prepare (with a lot of grind, honestly) and a hefty helping of good fortune to avoid getting wasted by bad randomness.
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
There are 8 minute fights in other games where people can watch videos, and know exactly what to do, and still need to build skills at executing it. So still requires skill, if its well designed.
These are the types of fights I like the least…not because it requires skill. That’s not my issue.
I don’t love going out of the game to have a watch videos to do things. I prefer to solve things on my own merits. I still don’t have all the badges in Silverwastes, because I’m missing one and refuse to look at Dulfy.
Memorizing what to do and practicing it till you can do it like a trained monkey might be challenging to some people…but I personally don’t see it that way.
Being the first guy to figure out what to do, or figuring out a different way to do stuff is far more challenging.
my point is skill isnt just about knowing what to do. Its about learning how to do it well, and its not really all about being a trained monkey. Is every sport ever about being a trained monkey?
well perhaps you see it that way. Regardless whether you use a guide or not, skill exists
There are 8 minute fights in other games where people can watch videos, and know exactly what to do, and still need to build skills at executing it. So still requires skill, if its well designed.
These are the types of fights I like the least…not because it requires skill. That’s not my issue.
I don’t love going out of the game to have a watch videos to do things. I prefer to solve things on my own merits. I still don’t have all the badges in Silverwastes, because I’m missing one and refuse to look at Dulfy.
Memorizing what to do and practicing it till you can do it like a trained monkey might be challenging to some people…but I personally don’t see it that way.
Being the first guy to figure out what to do, or figuring out a different way to do stuff is far more challenging.
my point is skill isnt just about knowing what to do. Its about learning how to do it well, and its not really all about being a trained monkey. Is every sport ever about being a trained monkey?
well perhaps you see it that way. Regardless whether you use a guide or not, skill exists
A video game is not a sport for a lot of reasons. At very least, PvE in a video game. Talking about players is something different.
The reason it’s not a sport is because someone programmed it and there’s nothing in it but that program. Juggling requires hand eye coordination and it requires practice, but I wouldn’t call it a sport.
Here’s the difference. When facing a human you don’t know what to expect. You really don’t. Let’s say the best, most accurate fast ball pitcher in the world is facing you. He can still throw one over your head. It’s happened.
When you’re facing AI, you know what to look for specifically and what to do specifically eventally. Half of it is memorization, half of it is reflex. Maybe not exactly half but you get the idea.
Unfortunately, I don’t find that stuff impressive. First of all, it puts every single person who lives in Australia at a disadvantage, because we have no servers here. I’m almost guaranteeing an extra half second lag. So less interest because no fairness there.
And of course net connections affect things, what kind of computer you have. That wouldn’t really happen with sports (though admittedly you can have a better bat).
It’s just not the same thing.
I enjoy doing most of these things as well, a lot of this is fun challenging content and its a very rewarding on a personal level, but heres my issue and maybe this is a whole other topic but why is zerging down a risen chicken in Orr with 40+ players more rewarding than solo’ing a champion or finishing all the jumping puzzles or spending several hours fighting 2 other servers over Stonemist? Why are mindless task so much more rewarding than anything remotely challenging in this game?
To be fair, ANet is trying new ways to reward. The issue, though, is that their attempts are appearing in newer content, and have not been made retroactive. One thing that I and some others suggested many times was that rewards be tied to event completion rather than mob drops. That’s one of the reward systems in DT and SW.
Maybe if one of their experiments gets more praise and less griping from the forums, they might decide to retrofit that system to older content. It seems they intend to keep the older content around and relevant to the ongoing game for some time. One thing I would not do if I were them is revamp the loot system on older content until they know that what they will do will be a a hit. That’s why I think they’re trying different systems to see what is well-received.
There are 8 minute fights in other games where people can watch videos, and know exactly what to do, and still need to build skills at executing it. So still requires skill, if its well designed.
These are the types of fights I like the least…not because it requires skill. That’s not my issue.
I don’t love going out of the game to have a watch videos to do things. I prefer to solve things on my own merits. I still don’t have all the badges in Silverwastes, because I’m missing one and refuse to look at Dulfy.
Memorizing what to do and practicing it till you can do it like a trained monkey might be challenging to some people…but I personally don’t see it that way.
Being the first guy to figure out what to do, or figuring out a different way to do stuff is far more challenging.
my point is skill isnt just about knowing what to do. Its about learning how to do it well, and its not really all about being a trained monkey. Is every sport ever about being a trained monkey?
well perhaps you see it that way. Regardless whether you use a guide or not, skill exists
A video game is not a sport for a lot of reasons. At very least, PvE in a video game. Talking about players is something different.
The reason it’s not a sport is because someone programmed it and there’s nothing in it but that program. Juggling requires hand eye coordination and it requires practice, but I wouldn’t call it a sport.
Here’s the difference. When facing a human you don’t know what to expect. You really don’t. Let’s say the best, most accurate fast ball pitcher in the world is facing you. He can still throw one over your head. It’s happened.
When you’re facing AI, you know what to look for specifically and what to do specifically eventally. Half of it is memorization, half of it is reflex. Maybe not exactly half but you get the idea.
Unfortunately, I don’t find that stuff impressive. First of all, it puts every single person who lives in Australia at a disadvantage, because we have no servers here. I’m almost guaranteeing an extra half second lag. So less interest because no fairness there.
And of course net connections affect things, what kind of computer you have. That wouldn’t really happen with sports (though admittedly you can have a better bat).
It’s just not the same thing.
if the key difference is unpredictability, that can be programed as well.
Does chess not take skill when you play against a computer?
hmmm
anyhow regardless, sport or not, skill doesnt require innovation. in fact most skills are not innovated.
But if you want to have fun . . . and your fun is dependent on things? Rather than people, rather than the experiences? Maybe you should think about that.
fun is a thousand different things to even just one person. A person looks for different flavors of fun in different things. I cannot have fun mountain biking without certain things…namely a mountain bike. Someone who approaches an MMO to have fun collecting things or completing a character, or whatever may not need anything at all to have fun at some other endeavor.
There is no need for some sort of self examination for looking for a particular flavor of fun in a particular endeavor. Even in similar endeavors the flavor can be radically different. When I play a superhero pnp RPG there is no effort or expectation of accumulating wealth and power as part of the fun. When playing a kick down the door and kill every monster in the room dungeon crawl part of the fun is seeing the character progress inpower and influence through wealth and items. Both RPGs, similar, very different approaches to fun. Both satisfy different fun cravings. MMOs provide fun in different flavors for different people. The fact that for you the flavor doesnt seem to center around going after things in game, while for others it might, doesn’t mean that they need to take stock. It means that in this particular endeavor you and they are finding fun in different ways.
wont help much if they are still in high level areas, poorly messaged, or in very specfic content players dont want to go to on principle (like WvW)
that said it would be good to have options.
However over all, i think they need make early traits something really easy, or natural, and then as you get higher and there are fewer traits, you can have more ambitious goals.
you can also have multiple options, or perhaps you can get the traits sooner if you do X Y or Z, but guaranteed just by doing something you will naturally do anyhow, like hitting a certain level, or using X skill a moderate amount of times.
regardless whatever system needs a lot more refinement, the current trait system was thought out very well even for what it was trying to accomplish.
But if you want to have fun . . . and your fun is dependent on things? Rather than people, rather than the experiences? Maybe you should think about that.
fun is a thousand different things to even just one person. A person looks for different flavors of fun in different things. I cannot have fun mountain biking without certain things…namely a mountain bike. Someone who approaches an MMO to have fun collecting things or completing a character, or whatever may not need anything at all to have fun at some other endeavor.
There is no need for some sort of self examination for looking for a particular flavor of fun in a particular endeavor. Even in similar endeavors the flavor can be radically different. When I play a superhero pnp RPG there is no effort or expectation of accumulating wealth and power as part of the fun. When playing a kick down the door and kill every monster in the room dungeon crawl part of the fun is seeing the character progress inpower and influence through wealth and items. Both RPGs, similar, very different approaches to fun. Both satisfy different fun cravings. MMOs provide fun in different flavors for different people. The fact that for you the flavor doesnt seem to center around going after things in game, while for others it might, doesn’t mean that they need to take stock. It means that in this particular endeavor you and they are finding fun in different ways.
I apologize, I should have been more clear.
If the fun for you has to revolve around being the absolute best-geared, or having all the shinies, then I think you need to accept there will be a significant hardship attached to this goal. Or that it may never actually be attained. Find your fun in the pursuit of the goal, not in having to reach it. That’s setting yourself up for disappointment should something come up which prevents you from achieving it.
And you know what, when I typed that earlier? I wasn’t looking down on people. I just think you really do need to stop and figure out what you find fun about something. Is it the having? Or the pursuit? Is it the prestige of the item in question, or is it knowing what you overcome to get it?
Like I said, most of my MMO years I can look back and remember events more than things which were what I treasured. Things come and go. Things are just data on a server which will eventually go dark. Those memories? Bloody Kithicor and its aftermath, for instance? That stays.
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
But if you want to have fun . . . and your fun is dependent on things? Rather than people, rather than the experiences? Maybe you should think about that.
fun is a thousand different things to even just one person. A person looks for different flavors of fun in different things. I cannot have fun mountain biking without certain things…namely a mountain bike. Someone who approaches an MMO to have fun collecting things or completing a character, or whatever may not need anything at all to have fun at some other endeavor.
There is no need for some sort of self examination for looking for a particular flavor of fun in a particular endeavor. Even in similar endeavors the flavor can be radically different. When I play a superhero pnp RPG there is no effort or expectation of accumulating wealth and power as part of the fun. When playing a kick down the door and kill every monster in the room dungeon crawl part of the fun is seeing the character progress inpower and influence through wealth and items. Both RPGs, similar, very different approaches to fun. Both satisfy different fun cravings. MMOs provide fun in different flavors for different people. The fact that for you the flavor doesnt seem to center around going after things in game, while for others it might, doesn’t mean that they need to take stock. It means that in this particular endeavor you and they are finding fun in different ways.
I apologize, I should have been more clear.
If the fun for you has to revolve around being the absolute best-geared, or having all the shinies, then I think you need to accept there will be a significant hardship attached to this goal. Or that it may never actually be attained. Find your fun in the pursuit of the goal, not in having to reach it. That’s setting yourself up for disappointment should something come up which prevents you from achieving it.
And you know what, when I typed that earlier? I wasn’t looking down on people. I just think you really do need to stop and figure out what you find fun about something. Is it the having? Or the pursuit? Is it the prestige of the item in question, or is it knowing what you overcome to get it?
Like I said, most of my MMO years I can look back and remember events more than things which were what I treasured. Things come and go. Things are just data on a server which will eventually go dark. Those memories? Bloody Kithicor and its aftermath, for instance? That stays.
For me part of the fun is developing my mastery of my character, at the best he can be, to the best I can be whe running around doing cool things and having all sorts of random adventures in an interesting setting. I can spend countless hours just killing random mobs while practicing combat techniques. I dont measure myself against others. Dont need to be better than any other given player. Dont need to be seen by others as having prestige or anything of the sort. I find enjoyment in doing the best I can. As long as my character is not physically capable of performing at the best then my efforts are not as enjoyable. No matter how much effort I put into practicing and developing my skill with the character he will underperform vs his potential.
Of course he will, because it’s two fold. One, you might not have the absolute cutting-edge best gear out there. Considering I keep hearing changes on what that is generally, I filed it under “just whatever you can live with” for myself.
And secondly, someone else will inevitably be able to pick up the same character you are certain is perhaps not underperforming anymore – and make him do things you never thought possible.
There is always someone better.
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
Of course he will, because it’s two fold. One, you might not have the absolute cutting-edge best gear out there. Considering I keep hearing changes on what that is generally, I filed it under “just whatever you can live with” for myself.
And secondly, someone else will inevitably be able to pick up the same character you are certain is perhaps not underperforming anymore – and make him do things you never thought possible.
There is always someone better.
Of course there is always someone else better. This is particularly true as I do not have the reflexes I once did. That is very much why, as mentioned in my previous post, i measure against myself, not other players. My character, at the best he can be, while I play the best I can. I KNOW that there are better players than I. I applaud their skill. Sometimes I watch their videos. I do not envy or resent their superior skill nor do I feel that my efforts are lessened because I will never be as good a player as some. But my efforts are lessened if my character’s performance is inherently below his potential no matter how well he is played.
There are 8 minute fights in other games where people can watch videos, and know exactly what to do, and still need to build skills at executing it. So still requires skill, if its well designed.
These are the types of fights I like the least…not because it requires skill. That’s not my issue.
I don’t love going out of the game to have a watch videos to do things. I prefer to solve things on my own merits. I still don’t have all the badges in Silverwastes, because I’m missing one and refuse to look at Dulfy.
Memorizing what to do and practicing it till you can do it like a trained monkey might be challenging to some people…but I personally don’t see it that way.
Being the first guy to figure out what to do, or figuring out a different way to do stuff is far more challenging.
my point is skill isnt just about knowing what to do. Its about learning how to do it well, and its not really all about being a trained monkey. Is every sport ever about being a trained monkey?
well perhaps you see it that way. Regardless whether you use a guide or not, skill exists
A video game is not a sport for a lot of reasons. At very least, PvE in a video game. Talking about players is something different.
The reason it’s not a sport is because someone programmed it and there’s nothing in it but that program. Juggling requires hand eye coordination and it requires practice, but I wouldn’t call it a sport.
Here’s the difference. When facing a human you don’t know what to expect. You really don’t. Let’s say the best, most accurate fast ball pitcher in the world is facing you. He can still throw one over your head. It’s happened.
When you’re facing AI, you know what to look for specifically and what to do specifically eventally. Half of it is memorization, half of it is reflex. Maybe not exactly half but you get the idea.
Unfortunately, I don’t find that stuff impressive. First of all, it puts every single person who lives in Australia at a disadvantage, because we have no servers here. I’m almost guaranteeing an extra half second lag. So less interest because no fairness there.
And of course net connections affect things, what kind of computer you have. That wouldn’t really happen with sports (though admittedly you can have a better bat).
It’s just not the same thing.
if the key difference is unpredictability, that can be programed as well.
Does chess not take skill when you play against a computer?
hmmmanyhow regardless, sport or not, skill doesnt require innovation. in fact most skills are not innovated.
It’s not skill I’m thinking about, it’s the type of skill. That’s what you’re missing. You ignored that part of my response.
Hand eye coordination if all very impressive. Not sure how that helps me do Liadri from Tasmania. If it were a fair challenge, if Anet give me that extra half a second back to make my dodges, maybe I could see it your way, but even then I doubt it.
Thinking and mental prowess impress me a lot more than being able to dodge an attack. Yes, it’s fun to watch, maybe but you know, so what?
The other difference between a game and a sport is that a game is MADE to be beaten. It’s designed for people to be able to do it.
Going up against an opponent in a sport is another matter. That opponent may have no tells, may have no weakness or none you can access.
There were people who stole bases consistently in baseball, and no one could really stop them. Throwing out Rod Carew impressed me. Beating a boss that is literally designed to be beaten…not so much.
That’s interesting, Ashen. Thanks for that perspective. I’ll have to think on it . . . in the meantime, I’ll return quietly to silence on this topic. There is little more I could say which I haven’t, with regard to the grind people reference and why I view it as either a subjective trap of the mind or an unnecessary diversion from enjoying what you have while worrying about what you don’t.
And I’ve wandered afield in philosophical musings on a slight tangent in that discussion. My apologies for doing that.
I honestly believe, after today, no matter what ANet developers may do to retool the game, no matter how they may alter loot in the future or Traits/Masteries/Anything . . . someone, somewhere will be more than happy to plant a flag and cry from the hilltops how the grind is insurmountable and a personal affront. Regardless of whatever Colin, Mike, Anthony, or Chris say, there will always be at least one person who is willing to start . . . another . . . topic on how there is too much grind.
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
…
the no grind thing in gw2 is as ironic as it gets
surely you don’t need to grind at all to do anything in this game; you can run dungeons in all rares for all i know, and world bosses don’t require any gear or skill at all since they boil down to the number of people pure and simple
thing is if you don’t grind there isn’t anything to do in the game in terms of pve. You can work towards a legendary, ascended armor, or some back piece, and guess what they are all grindy as hell
here is what i’d love to see in this game (although it is certain it will never happen). Imagine anet dropping the living story kitten with its measly 3 quests per update, and focusing on releasing new dungeon paths for example. Imagine further that the new paths are difficult to complete, and even more difficult to master (i imagine you could teach a monkey to stack behind a pillar and kill the boss), and because of the increase of difficulty yield unique/higher rewards (notice how popular the aether-path is, being more difficult than the rest of the dungeons and giving nothing more)
There are 8 minute fights in other games where people can watch videos, and know exactly what to do, and still need to build skills at executing it. So still requires skill, if its well designed.
These are the types of fights I like the least…not because it requires skill. That’s not my issue.
I don’t love going out of the game to have a watch videos to do things. I prefer to solve things on my own merits. I still don’t have all the badges in Silverwastes, because I’m missing one and refuse to look at Dulfy.
Memorizing what to do and practicing it till you can do it like a trained monkey might be challenging to some people…but I personally don’t see it that way.
Being the first guy to figure out what to do, or figuring out a different way to do stuff is far more challenging.
my point is skill isnt just about knowing what to do. Its about learning how to do it well, and its not really all about being a trained monkey. Is every sport ever about being a trained monkey?
well perhaps you see it that way. Regardless whether you use a guide or not, skill exists
A video game is not a sport for a lot of reasons. At very least, PvE in a video game. Talking about players is something different.
The reason it’s not a sport is because someone programmed it and there’s nothing in it but that program. Juggling requires hand eye coordination and it requires practice, but I wouldn’t call it a sport.
Here’s the difference. When facing a human you don’t know what to expect. You really don’t. Let’s say the best, most accurate fast ball pitcher in the world is facing you. He can still throw one over your head. It’s happened.
When you’re facing AI, you know what to look for specifically and what to do specifically eventally. Half of it is memorization, half of it is reflex. Maybe not exactly half but you get the idea.
Unfortunately, I don’t find that stuff impressive. First of all, it puts every single person who lives in Australia at a disadvantage, because we have no servers here. I’m almost guaranteeing an extra half second lag. So less interest because no fairness there.
And of course net connections affect things, what kind of computer you have. That wouldn’t really happen with sports (though admittedly you can have a better bat).
It’s just not the same thing.
Tell that to all the E-sports game who gets as much viewer in their world finals series as any of the top sports out there.
(edited by Lifestealer.4910)
There are 8 minute fights in other games where people can watch videos, and know exactly what to do, and still need to build skills at executing it. So still requires skill, if its well designed.
These are the types of fights I like the least…not because it requires skill. That’s not my issue.
I don’t love going out of the game to have a watch videos to do things. I prefer to solve things on my own merits. I still don’t have all the badges in Silverwastes, because I’m missing one and refuse to look at Dulfy.
Memorizing what to do and practicing it till you can do it like a trained monkey might be challenging to some people…but I personally don’t see it that way.
Being the first guy to figure out what to do, or figuring out a different way to do stuff is far more challenging.
my point is skill isnt just about knowing what to do. Its about learning how to do it well, and its not really all about being a trained monkey. Is every sport ever about being a trained monkey?
well perhaps you see it that way. Regardless whether you use a guide or not, skill exists
A video game is not a sport for a lot of reasons. At very least, PvE in a video game. Talking about players is something different.
The reason it’s not a sport is because someone programmed it and there’s nothing in it but that program. Juggling requires hand eye coordination and it requires practice, but I wouldn’t call it a sport.
Here’s the difference. When facing a human you don’t know what to expect. You really don’t. Let’s say the best, most accurate fast ball pitcher in the world is facing you. He can still throw one over your head. It’s happened.
When you’re facing AI, you know what to look for specifically and what to do specifically eventally. Half of it is memorization, half of it is reflex. Maybe not exactly half but you get the idea.
Unfortunately, I don’t find that stuff impressive. First of all, it puts every single person who lives in Australia at a disadvantage, because we have no servers here. I’m almost guaranteeing an extra half second lag. So less interest because no fairness there.
And of course net connections affect things, what kind of computer you have. That wouldn’t really happen with sports (though admittedly you can have a better bat).
It’s just not the same thing.
Tell that to all the E-sports game out there who gets as much viewer in their world finals series as any of the top sports out there.
If you read my comments from the beginning you would know I was talking about PvE AI, not PvP.
PvP has a chance to be more because there is thought and strategy involved. People work in completely unexpected manners.
Once you learn a PvE encounter it just gets easier and easier.
Even more important, that would be exactly the type of items that would likely not be account bound! Some items not being account bound is also what I talked about because they allow to still let people like grind gold and buy it. So still not sure whats your problem.
Back in the Semptermber of 2013 when hey revamped the Tentraquil , ppl got in kittnstorm mode with the low drop rate of the mini , here on the forums
So if you want low chances to drop , it is ok , but you should consider about character bound :P
You are afraid if they would implement what I say you would have to do raids over and over again? Well don’t be, you can just carry on what you are doing. Maybe you sometimes have to do a JP or a dungeon once but thats about it.
>_>
For leader-boards or PvP I don’t care much (maybe guild leader board would be nice?_, for those things I play FPS games. I also could not care less about BiS gear, for me BiS gear is the gear that looks the best. Oow and in GW2 I also like JP’s and WvW and the guild stuff (In HoT that hopefully also includes guild-halls when implemented properly). So you decide for yourself what type of player I am.
At this paraghraph , you dont say anything about Fractals
So you also you dont have to care about the Achentant gear (like myself doing the Raids for that Gear , is not something i must care too :P )
The dungeons +world bosses are balanced around Exotic gear + PvP have their own stats + WvWvW when a blob meats a blob you should pray to the Gods .
Closing a thread where don’t agree with the conversation. So like censoring everything you do not like. Yeah thats a great idea.. especially if the facts aren’t on your side.
But seriously I wonder if you really don’t get it maybe misinterpreting things and thats how you keep coming up with things I said, that I did not say or that you are indeed just trolling.
You simple give diffrent ’’data’’ on 3 different ppl in the same time .
I simply try to understand your logic , because our convarsations goes something like that :
Devata : I hate grind
Plzbegentle : Then you can friendly farm a spot
Devata : But in others games i dont have to buy items from the cash shop
Plzbegentle : But in others game you have to pay 15 euros + spent ral money on their cash shop
Devata : Are you trying to say something to me or are you trolling ?
If you are not doing Fractals , you dont have to grind .
Devata : But i am raising my vooice , so MOST ppl (more than more) that left of the grind to come back
Plzbegntle :So by removing the cash shop and making others ppl missery with the lack of the Updates, in order to bring back the hypothetical MORE ppl back ?
Also i like our coversation :P
And its always repeat :P
That why the thread will be closed :P
The plan is Simple :
a) Play WvW . By doing so , you guarranteed Silver+ Exotic+Karmafrom the Keep-Castle booses .
b) Use the WvW baghes to buy Rams and seel to the Black Market for silver (or upgrade them first with a LvL at the mystic forged some imporved form)
b) Kill th other bob for some Rewards+MAts > sell them to Black Market for silver.
c) Try to check wihich cloth are sold for the most or you dont want to grind .
> Then check the Wiki from which Gear LvL items those ’’cloth’’ drops if you Salvage it .
> Then try to check the Wiki again to see which which PvE Npc Vendor sells blue/green Chests+Heads gear fo that lvl
> Buy them with the Karma you got into the WvWvW and try to put them in the Mystic toilet to be an Exotic items > then Salvage it for the ’’cloth’’
Or try to check the Wiki , which LvL items drop ’’Ectos’’ > find the PvE Npc>Mystic Toilet > Sell ectos> make profit
IS that too hard from a WvWvW player to understand ?
Or she thinks , that method is Grinding ?
Edit: I’ve read you posts in the Crysis forums , about that :
‘’Create a game for the PC-freaks (as you name it) and the masses will buy it to. Create a game for the masses and maybe they buy it (See COD) but it may also die (See Wolfenstein).’’
Well it might true , but i have my data too :P
a) GW2 PvP community motto > as long there are money and ‘’athletes ’’ the stadium will be always full > so we dont have to worry about casuals
b) Or wildstar with the Attument system have you where forced to waste a lot of time/efford in order to hop into the Raids (because the majority of the ppl that pay the subs are hardcore ppl …. right …?)
c) Or in WoW only the 5-6% does hardcore content
So we have a different opinion to which ’’population’’ the games must catter to
Edit: Well this is my last post to you , and i am sorry if i offend you
I cant keep attacking a fellow Piken Square guy :P
(edited by Killthehealersffs.8940)
I personally do not find the game all that grindy, its the RNG tied to the grind that is the killer. You can essentially play this game forever and not progress what so ever, especially when it comes to legendary’s, if you have bad RNG like myself and many others the road to a legendary can feel like an endless hopeless grind as there’s nothing one can do to progress towards that goal besides farming gold in hopes the in game economy doesn’t price you out of the items you need. Ascended weapons and armors are a bit more forgiving but again requires another boring time gated gold grind if you have bad RNG. I personally find the bad RNG in this game to be the main cause of why this game can feel so grindy at times for its vanity items not so much the grind itself. Its only saving grace is its all voluntary not mandatory. I have all 8 classes with minimum of 3 builds for each, it would take me 100 lifetimes to get them all geared in legendary’s and ascended if I was lucky enough.
What this game desperately needs are items that are earned purely through skill based activities, this game sorely lacks that.
You start with saying you don’t find it that grindy to then come with the ‘complain’ that describes the grind many people are complaining about.
“there’s nothing one can do to progress towards that goal besides farming gold in hopes the in game economy doesn’t price you out of the items you need”
Well thats the grind so many people here complain about, not only for legendaries also for toys and cosmetics in general this is the case but yeah a legendary is the extreme version of that I guess.. That and the ascended stuff.“What this game desperately needs are items that are earned purely through skill based activities, this game sorely lacks that.”
And that’s what many of those complaining about the grind are asking for.What you describe is exactly the grind people are complaining so much about here.
I guess I was complaining and didn’t realize it LOL, the reason I felt this game is not that grindy is because I learned a long time ago that grinding in this game is a complete waste of time, I personally found I made no strides what so ever in what I wanted to achieve and no longer do it. All those vanity items like unique skins, ascended stuff, legendary’s etc I basically look at as unattainable and no longer waste my time trying for those things, I just log in, do what I enjoy, mostly WvW and PvP and log off, completely ignoring any and all things that would be considered grindy, I guess its been so long with that mindset I no longer look at Gw2 as a grindy game.
Yeah well I do the same now. Of course that grind is still there and I would still prefer to go for those items without that grind but in a fun more direct interesting way. But I do understand where you are coming from.
I guess I was complaining and didn’t realize it LOL, the reason I felt this game is not that grindy is because I learned a long time ago that grinding in this game is a complete waste of time, I personally found I made no strides what so ever in what I wanted to achieve and no longer do it. All those vanity items like unique skins, ascended stuff, legendary’s etc I basically look at as unattainable and no longer waste my time trying for those things, I just log in, do what I enjoy, mostly WvW and PvP and log off, completely ignoring any and all things that would be considered grindy, I guess its been so long with that mindset I no longer look at Gw2 as a grindy game.
This is worth recognition. Once more people break out of their stigmas established from other MMO’s, they will realize the same thing. GW2 is something much different below the surface.
With the difference that in those other MMO’s there is not such a bad grind for these sorts of things. But it nice to see you now seem to agree with all the grind being there but you feel people should simply ignore it. Well I do, still I would love to have this part of the end-game available (hunting down items) and then without the grind-way but an fun (may be challenging) way.
I guess I was complaining and didn’t realize it LOL, the reason I felt this game is not that grindy is because I learned a long time ago that grinding in this game is a complete waste of time, I personally found I made no strides what so ever in what I wanted to achieve and no longer do it. All those vanity items like unique skins, ascended stuff, legendary’s etc I basically look at as unattainable and no longer waste my time trying for those things, I just log in, do what I enjoy, mostly WvW and PvP and log off, completely ignoring any and all things that would be considered grindy, I guess its been so long with that mindset I no longer look at Gw2 as a grindy game.
This is worth recognition. Once more people break out of their stigmas established from other MMO’s, they will realize the same thing. GW2 is something much different below the surface.
With the difference that in those other MMO’s there is not such a bad grind for these sorts of things.
That’s debatable and not all that relevant. I’m with Anet’s definition so I don’t feel there is a grind; I just acknowledge that if others think it’s there that they haven’t turned on to the idea they don’t need to do it (which comes full circle to my own perception that the game isn’t grindy). It’s nice to see some others bringing some sensible discussion to this thread in the last 2 pages though. People starting to realize that there is alot of grey area in this discussion, the subjectivity being applied in absolute terms is a non-starter.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
~
“That still doesn’t change two things: this is something you choose to do rather than you are forced to do, and it has little impact on your performance in the game.”
You still seem to not understand that many people don’t care that much about ‘performance’ as is needing to have the max damage. Some care more about the visual part so then the cosmetics are more or at least just as important / fun as the performance are for others. Meaning it does not change a thing if it does or does not impact the performance. You can keep repeating that as long as you want but it does not change the fact that people run into this grind (you are now finally accepting) and dislike it. Performance or not is completely irrelevant for that. The game is for fun, not for performance.
“First, not my problem. I’m not their parent, I’m not their guardian, and I’m probably not their designated raider. They want to do it, fine ”
Then why are you here actively trying to downplay there complains because the grind is not ‘required’ or does not revolve around ‘performance’. We all know that.. we don’t care. You say thats fine, nobody ask you to parent them but don’t downplay the complete reasonable complain they have about this.
“just don’t come to me trying to convince me it was necessary you spent $100 on those cool shoes because everyone else was wearing them. K, thx, bai.”?? I don’t see how this even closely fits into to argument but oke whatever.
“Gold isn’t hard to come by, so long as you are patient. ” First of all, my example did how why patient will only put you more behind and secondly, I do not wait to get rewards, I want to actively play for it.. You know it’s a game.. you play. And I can do that but then the only way is grind. And thats what the people complain about.
“If you want to keep championing for the downtrodden grinders ” Uhhm.. no the grinders are fine. It’s those that want fun ways to hunt down the items in stead of grinding.
“You need to step up your rhetoric because I’ve seen it all before and there’s nothing new here.” What would there need to be new. Thats all there is to it but somehow some people always feel the need to downplay it like if the problem is not there.
“In fact, you keep repeating the same thing.” 100% true because I keep answering to the same arguments all the time. Or do you think you said anything new? “It’s grind because I say it’s perceived as grind.” No it’s grind because it’s grind even Colin named it grind and even you just referred to it as grind. “I know how people run into it and see it as grind.” If ‘people’ see it as grind, it is grind right.. thats how words work.
“it’s the RNG which makes specific items rare enough to have the price high enough you feel it’s a necessary grind.” RNG is indeed an important part of the result for the grind if it comes to the items that are directly available in the game yes. That has also been mentioned before multiple times I think. Of multiple items have no rng on them and still require grind (a finisher for example). So it’s a mix of things but RNG is indeed one of the reasons yes. Doesn’t mean it’s the grind (the effect of that rng) that people dislike and complain about.
“I say it is so it must be so” That is then almost as good as your “I say it’s not so, so it can’t be so”
Thing is, if many people do feel the grind (they feel it’s so) that makes a relevant point to debate here. So in a we yes “if people say it’s so, it is so.”
“we have to do it because we must get the shiny.” No.. It’s the only think we can do if we want to be shiny. And people like more fun ways then grind. But for some reason you seem to think you need to downplay this with funny arguments as ‘you don’t need it’. What was, is and stays irrelevant for how people want to play and enjoy a game.
Again You do NOT have to get a legendary or ascended armor to play effiecently.
level 80 greens will get you through things everything else is OPTIONAL IF YOU WANT TO GRIND FOR IT !I like the game therefor I took the time to make Twilight for example do I need twilight to complete level 80 personal story content ? be good at spvp or wvwvw with it ? No I did not NEED IT I WANTED IT therefor I took the time to make it.
Any grind you do in this game is purely OPTIONAL, You are not blocked from doing any content because your not in full exotics.
“Again You do NOT have to get a legendary”
Again.. irrelevant for what people like to do or find fun to do. It’s a game.. it’s not about what people have to get it’s about what people want to do!
“OPTIONAL IF YOU WANT TO GRIND FOR IT !” People WANT TO HUNT FOR IT!
DO YOU EVEN PLAY THIS GAME!?!
!http://s18.postimg.org/b4vi9tedh/gw504.jpg!
Uhmm I guess I do..
ed: 6.75hr a day for those mathematically challenged.
So you play the game like a full time job and you think you’re being subjected to grinding?
You’re experiencing burnout from playing the game way too much and blaming the game for it.
It’s your choice to play the game a ton and it’s your choice to save up your bags to open them all at once instead of opeing them a few at a time as you get them.
The bags of useless loot is a problem and they need to change their loot system, but it’s not grind to open loot bags. And no I haven’t ever opened up 250 bags at once because I never let my stacks get that big before opening them.
I open bags while I’m running somewhere, during downtime when a group is forming, as a break from what I’m doing to get some downtime. Opening bags is annoying, but it’s not grind.
The way you’re playing the game is giving you burnout. It’s not the game’s fault that you can’t manage your playtime in a healthy way.
The game has no mandatory grind. If you are grinding, it’s because you like to grind or you want special cosmetic and prestige items that grinding rewards you with.
I like to grind sometimes too. But I can always go do something non-grind when I don’t want to and I’m never required to return to grinding.
In fairness, I think there is a bit of a point in those arguments that you are dismissing a little too readily. There is “necessary to see/play all the content/story in the game” grind, and that does make a fair bit of difference in how optional it is, though not in any way that is related to your personal issues with grind.
The problem is that it’s a personal preference. That is only important ‘if’ you want to do that. Many people here trying to downplay the grind also say.. You only need to do it ‘if’ you want those cosmetics. Well those so called ‘necessary things’ you only need to do / get if you want to do that content.
From a players ‘fun’ perspective it’s exactly the same. As much as some people hate it to get locked out of some content, so much other people hate it that working towards cosmetics can only done by grinding. And then there is of course the question of content. Is hunting down items not content? Is playing with looks of your character not content?
I’ll grant you there is a fair bit of that, but can you meet me part way too? What if there were cool minis and skins that were exactly the way you describe, but also enough minis and skins collections that were obtainable by completing content and or reasonable amounts of farming that you could keep yourself entertained hunting down those. Would that be an acceptable trade-off?
That was already a part of how I explained I would design the reward system. I talked about that multiple times in this thread. Here is a full explanation (same is also placed in this thread but could not find it so the link is to another thread). https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/RNG-as-a-concept-Discuss/page/18#post4758907 so that is not someting I ever said I would be against. Some farming is fine as long as it’s a doable farm and it’s a mix of things in stead of basically only have the grind option available.
If it was clear to people that you aren’t trying to argue that grind should be eliminated, but rather that you want so see added ways to obtain stuff directly from existing content, then you might find people less inclined to instinctively oppose your ideas. I find people tend to be fairly accommodating of other play styles as long as they don’t see the requests as damaging to other’s play and rewards.
I also made clear multiple times that grinding would still be an option for most rewards out there. I think that most of those trying to defend Anet here or try to downplay the grind complain many people have simply feel there baby is getting spoken badly of so will defend it.
I mean, does anything anybody complains about really effects the people going so strongly in the defense here? I don’t think so. So why are they here to go against it. And during the thread we did even see them having to make a shift from simply acting as if if did not exist, grind having a different meaning to now it being there but not being a problem. I think it’s simply some sort of defense mechanism as soon as they see say somebody ‘bad’ about GW2. And well if people say GW2 feels grindy to them while one of the apposed selling points are that it’s grind-free that is bad right. So they come in and defense it but that does not mean people don’t feel the grind and that there are better solutions.
They are also not doing there baby any favor because if you ignore all the issues people (not them.. but people) are having with it, it’s not goof for the game.
Here you have a game all about cosmetics but if you like to hunt down cosmetics you should go play another game. That is a little sad don’t you think.
Bill Clinton “I did not have sexual relations with that woman.”
Richard Nixon “I am not a crook.”
Colin Johanson “The best gear/stats: This means to have statistically the best abilities in the game, you shouldn’t need to, by our definition of the word, grind. This goes for leveling and getting top gear (by our definition that’s ascended gear, legendary being an optional extra thing you can do, but don’t need to do.)”
’nuff said.
My problem is with how grind has been continually redefined by each person who has taken part here – mostly so they can disagree with the one Colin provided. And yet there hasn’t been a “so grind is a subjective measurement” agreement despite all evidence that it is subjective to the person.
~
I find it noble to aspire to that ideal of a game with no grind, but I find it . . . a little misguided to think it is possible to actually think it plausible on a broad scale like an MMO. Even Minecraft is grindy.
Really.. You think people are here just to disagree with Colin? Well at least now I understand your hostility.
No, people are here because they see a lot of grind, they like to do or earn specific stuff but the only way for them to do so is by grinding or they should simply ignore all that. They are not here to just disagree with Colin.
They simply explain the grind they run into and that is 100% valid and does not matter if fits or does not fit into the no grind philosophy. They simply have an issue with the game and talk about that here. As much as you have an issue with the NPE and talk about that.
But I guess if you say anything about that you are also just wanting to disagree with Anet right..?:S
Oow and about that definition you seem to keep telling people are making up but is not a definition Colin agrees with or whatever….
AGAIN:
There are certainly optional activities in the game players can embark on that I think we’d openly accept fall into the category of our definition of more “grindy”. Earning certain unique skins, and in particular some titles absolutely qualify as things we’d put on this list. Legendary weapons have components to them that fall into this category
So yes also Colin agrees this is grind! (why would he not, it’s a general meaning of the word grind. Only people who try to talk away the grind try to say it’s not grind) All Colin did say was that these types of grind are not the grind they are trying to prevent with their no grind philosophy.
And what people now here say is. “Well that might be so. But we do still dislike that grind a lot. Being it part of the grind you try to prevent or not.”
Thats all.
There is also nothing misguiding about asking this.
A game like WoW does not have this type of grind so much. If I picked a random mini there, there is a 90% change (no real number!) that I can just go hunt it down in the world. Same for most cosmetics.
(edited by Devata.6589)
We can argue definitions all day, it does not matter.
My opinion (and thats all anyone can give) is that after playing MMOs for over a decade, GW2 is the most grindy game I’ve yet to play. Thats just how it feels. did not used to feel like this, not back in beta…..but post launch, with multiple currencies, skins being RNG attained, the trait rework, the legendary system, the disappointmetn of the events system, and now with masteries on the horizon…….its just all grind to me.
Your milage may differ, but thats my impressions.
We can argue definitions all day, it does not matter.
My opinion (and thats all anyone can give) is that after playing MMOs for over a decade, GW2 is the most grindy game I’ve yet to play. Thats just how it feels. did not used to feel like this, not back in beta…..but post launch, with multiple currencies, skins being RNG attained, the trait rework, the legendary system, the disappointmetn of the events system, and now with masteries on the horizon…….its just all grind to me.Your milage may differ, but thats my impressions.
Yeah thats my point. Why do I always need two pages for it? Probably because I want to explain everything with examples and into detail.
I think it is fair for everyone to want to have stuff that is achievable at their level/skill/dedication/style, but also means having to accept that most people aren’t going to be able to get everything that exists to be obtained, or even close to it. From what you’ve said before, I think that is a reality you acknowledge as well, but that tends to get overlooked as people argue about one side or another as if they aren’t all necessary to keep as many players as possible happy and playing.
If it was clear to people that you aren’t trying to argue that grind should be eliminated, but rather that you want so see added ways to obtain stuff directly from existing content, then you might find people less inclined to instinctively oppose your ideas. I find people tend to be fairly accommodating of other play styles as long as they don’t see the requests as damaging to other’s play and rewards.
My problem is how the argument continues to ignore fine details like, oh, facts . . . in favor of whipping up an anti-grind sentiment. I find it noble to aspire to that ideal of a game with no grind, but I find it . . . a little misguided to think it is possible to actually think it plausible on a broad scale like an MMO. Even Minecraft is grindy.
I agree, which is why I’m slowly trying to shift the conversation a bit. I don’t think it is possible to get anywhere unless we can all acknowledge that grind is fundamental at this point in game design history, we aren’t getting rid of it anytime soon, so the hope isn’t getting rid of grind but finding a way to coexist with it. Of course, fundamental to coexisting with it is accepting that we can’t have it all. Only when we can talk about having non-grindy rewards tracks that are designed for non-grinders that are good enough to be rewarding, while accepting there will still be stuff for grinders that we can’t get without doing the grinding, do we even have a chance of starting a conversation that isn’t all about arguing.
In fairness to Devata, that isn’t his only, or maybe even his primary issue. When he talks about what he really wants, it seems his biggest issue is that he finds hunting down, directly obtaining, and collecting rewards to be the main thing he enjoys. Things like ice elementals having a chance to drop an ice elemental mini, earth elementals dropping earth elemental minis, and a collection for obtaining all elemental minis. This is typically considered a farm, but with a low enough drop rate it comes dangerously close to the precise definition of grind that Colin gave, and the RNG can be frustrating, so the game typically makes stuff less directly farmable but allows it to be purchased with gold or tokens. That fixes the problem of people complaining that they’ve killed 10,000 ice elementals and never gotten a mini, but it causes a new problem for people like Devata who can’t practically farm the drop directly and for whom farming tokens or gold and buying the item negates all the fun of getting it.
Of course, getting out of the “whaaa! grind!” and “do the work or do without!” cycle would be the first step to getting anywhere, so I was trying to see if I could prod things past the grind issue and on to more of a, “yeah, there is grind, but lets talk about if there is enough other stuff you can find something to do and enjoy anyway” direction.
“he finds hunting down, directly obtaining, and collecting rewards to be the main thing he enjoys. " One of the main things and the mini examples is also one of the ways I like to obtain them yes, but getting it rewarded from a challenge like a dungeon, a quest or something like liadri is also fun to me. Mix it up a little.
Other then that you are spot on.
I also never said the game would have to remove all options of grind, I simply said there should also be the more direct option as well. There are other games who manage to do it so why would it not be possible in GW2? The cash-shop is an issue here (don’t want to go into that as I don’t want to change the thread into that direction, but it’s easy to see how an item in the cash-shop is only available the grind way) and that is also one of the reasons you see me talk so much about the expansions vs cash-shop focus in the forums. But in general games do not have to be designed to be grindy.
If your whole issue is that the game doesn’t have enough ways to get gear more directly, then what does that have to do with grinding? Those are exclusive to me. In theory, there could be a raid that gives you gear you want, grindy or not. Addressing grind doesn’t ensure you get direct methods to get gear. In fact, good luck getting a non-grindy approach to getting gear directly through raiding. I’m not saying it can’t be done but I don’t see Anet putting Ascended gear into a dungeon raid you don’t have to repeat many times to get it.
Seems to me you’re just using the premise of ‘game too grindy’ to justify a shift in paradigm on an unrelated issue.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
If your whole issue is that the game doesn’t have enough ways to get gear more directly, then what does that have to do with grinding?
Simple. ANet’s very own definition of grind is that, if there are many different ways to get it then it is not grindy. Thus the opposite is also true. If there are very few or just one way to get it, it is grindy.
That’s not logical … as I’ve already stated, you can have direct rewards and still have grind (in fact it’s highly LIKELY) so the idea that getting rid of grind will naturally lead to direct rewards is not necessarily correct.
It’s actually counter-intuitive to think that removing grind from a game will increase the chance we will see direct rewards from specific content. Anet isn’t just going to shower us with the stuff people are claiming we grind for in this game with one or two raids. That would be rather stupid in fact.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
If your whole issue is that the game doesn’t have enough ways to get gear more directly, then what does that have to do with grinding?
Simple. ANet’s very own definition of grind is that, if there are many different ways to get it then it is not grindy. Thus the opposite is also true. If there are very few or just one way to get it, it is grindy.
Sort of my definition too though.
If I can do anything to level, then leveling isn’t grinding to me, because I’m not doing the same thing over and over.
Take a game like Aion at launch. There were times when quests ran out, period. You were at one outpost, you weren’t high enough to go elsewhere, you ran out of quests, and literally the only thing to do was kill the same four bosses over and over again, until you were a high enough level to get to the next quest hub.
This was more or less the original definition of grinding. Farming was always something else.
I’ve watched the word evolve over the years as language does. But I still feel a need, personally, to draw a line between grinding experience for levels in a very limited venue, and just something taking a long time.
Lots of things take a long time, but if you can do them anywhere, how is it grinding?
I could almost go with the definition of grinding a specific dungeon to get a full set of dungeon armor because that’s repeating very specific content.
But saving up karma points to get say obby shards? That’s not grinding to me,. because I’ll eventually get it no matter what I do. I’m not stuck doing the same thing over and over.
Think about how grind is used in every day life. You go to work every day, do the same thing, it’s back to the grind. Most people use it to mean something repetitive. And that’s how it was used in MMOs for the longest time.
In fairness, I think there is a bit of a point in those arguments that you are dismissing a little too readily. There is “necessary to see/play all the content/story in the game” grind, and that does make a fair bit of difference in how optional it is, though not in any way that is related to your personal issues with grind.
The problem is that it’s a personal preference. That is only important ‘if’ you want to do that. Many people here trying to downplay the grind also say.. You only need to do it ‘if’ you want those cosmetics. Well those so called ‘necessary things’ you only need to do / get if you want to do that content.
From a players ‘fun’ perspective it’s exactly the same. As much as some people hate it to get locked out of some content, so much other people hate it that working towards cosmetics can only done by grinding. And then there is of course the question of content. Is hunting down items not content? Is playing with looks of your character not content?
It is, but sometimes it looks like you are getting drug into fighting an argument that isn’t really yours. Grind arguments are often associated with Ascended gear and legendaries and such, and those are often defended with the not needed argument, and those prior debates are bound to bleed over into any thread titled “no-grind philosophy”. But that isn’t your battle, so rather than trying to argue against it I thought it might be easier to just acknowledge the merits of the argument in general and then go around it as not relevant to you , personally, and your specific proposals.
I’ll grant you there is a fair bit of that, but can you meet me part way too? What if there were cool minis and skins that were exactly the way you describe, but also enough minis and skins collections that were obtainable by completing content and or reasonable amounts of farming that you could keep yourself entertained hunting down those. Would that be an acceptable trade-off?
That was already a part of how I explained I would design the reward system. I talked about that multiple times in this thread. Here is a full explanation (same is also placed in this thread but could not find it so the link is to another thread). https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/RNG-as-a-concept-Discuss/page/18#post4758907 so that is not someting I ever said I would be against. Some farming is fine as long as it’s a doable farm and it’s a mix of things instead of basically only have the grind option available.
Yeah, sorry to make you reiterate that. I knew that, but sometimes what I post in response to you is really more trying to direct conversation in the direction of what I think you are really trying to talk about instead of all the side arguments.
If it was clear to people that you aren’t trying to argue that grind should be eliminated, but rather that you want so see added ways to obtain stuff directly from existing content, then you might find people less inclined to instinctively oppose your ideas. I find people tend to be fairly accommodating of other play styles as long as they don’t see the requests as damaging to other’s play and rewards.
I also made clear multiple times that grinding would still be an option for most rewards out there. I think that most of those trying to defend Anet here or try to downplay the grind complain many people have simply feel there baby is getting spoken badly of so will defend it.
Well, again, it seems a lot of historical “grind battles” get pulled into your thread and ascribed to you as guilty by association with the “anti-grind” crowd. This was more of a, “hey, look, if we put down the pitchforks and axe handles and try to find out where we agree, I think Devata is actually fine with the grinds that are being defended as long as he has non-grind stuff too.” statement.
Underneath it all, I don’t think you are really even anti-grind in general. It seems you mostly just want to have a decent amount of collectible cosmetic rewards to chase that are directly obtainable from clearly defined activities (without intermediary currencies), most of which have a small associated grind, while some have a moderate grind and a few even have a large grind. That doesn’t seem unreasonable, it wouldn’t necessarily require eliminating any of the existing gold and currency grinds, and the non-cosmetic grinds like ascended and legendary and such you don’t care about at all, so it seems like there is an awful lot of unnecessary argument going on over things you aren’t even proposing.
(edited by DavidH.7380)
Why do we have grind? Why do MMO’s have to have grind, or at least goals that take so long that they’re experienced as grind even if the definition of grind in use by the developer does not agree?
Because MMO’s are a game genre built with a profit model based on keeping players around and playing the game for the long haul. The games are that way partly because some segments of the customer base demand that those long-term goals be in the game; because some segments of the player-base will find the fastest way to get to the goal and then demand more, saying there’s nothing to do; and because some segments of the player-base play MMO’s at great length on a daily basis, and want to do so for many years.
A long time ago, ANet had a dream, where players would engage with GW2 content because the content in and of itself was fun to play through. The MMO player-base, or at least a significant portion of it, has since disabused ANet of that notion.
What’s fundamentally wrong with MMOs is that they are gear central. It’s all about the gear. Doesn’t matter if it’s verticle or horizontal progression. The devs release new gear, the players work toward getting it. A treadmill is still a treadmill.
Anyone who says there’s no grind in GW2 is delusional. There WAS no grind in GW2. Since the devs released “updates” that force players to do more and more specific things in the game in order to progress or get rewarded, the game has become nothing but grind.
I only log in once a week or so anymore just to nab any new living story in my journal so I don’t have to pay for it later.
GW2 is more work than actual fun.
Anyone who says there’s no grind in GW2 is delusional. There WAS no grind in GW2. Since the devs released “updates” that force players to do more and more specific things in the game in order to progress or get rewarded, the game has become nothing but grind.
I only log in once a week or so anymore just to nab any new living story in my journal so I don’t have to pay for it later.
GW2 is more work than actual fun.
But that’s the result of players saying they were sick and tired of RNG based rewards and wanting reward tied to specific content. To be “special” it has to take a long time to get or everyone will end up with a dozen of them.
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RIP City of Heroes
I haven’t felt I needed to grind for anything except for 100% map completion tbh. Not saying it isn’t there, it’s just completely optional.
You still seem to not understand that many people don’t care that much about ‘performance’ as is needing to have the max damage. Some care more about the visual part so then the cosmetics are more or at least just as important / fun as the performance are for others. Meaning it does not change a thing if it does or does not impact the performance. You can keep repeating that as long as you want but it does not change the fact that people run into this grind (you are now finally accepting) and dislike it. Performance or not is completely irrelevant for that. The game is for fun, not for performance.
Is it for performance or fun? Which is it? Because you said the performance is an issue at the top, and ended with that end bit. So . . . what?
Then why are you here actively trying to downplay there complains because the grind is not ‘required’ or does not revolve around ‘performance’. We all know that.. we don’t care. You say thats fine, nobody ask you to parent them but don’t downplay the complete reasonable complain they have about this.
There’s a fine line between “I think this is too much for this” and “I am being forced to do this grind”. I take issue with the latter, which is the tone a lot of the complaints take.
“Gold isn’t hard to come by, so long as you are patient. ” First of all, my example did how why patient will only put you more behind
I’m sorry. I really, truly, am sorry you feel there is no room for patience. This is a point we will have to disagree on entirely, as I feel patience is very much a virtue. Especially when not having patience causes so much distress as you lay out.
“If you want to keep championing for the downtrodden grinders ” Uhhm.. no the grinders are fine. It’s those that want fun ways to hunt down the items in stead of grinding.
If the grind is fine, why are we having this conversation at all?
“In fact, you keep repeating the same thing.” 100% true because I keep answering to the same arguments all the time. Or do you think you said anything new? “It’s grind because I say it’s perceived as grind.” No it’s grind because it’s grind even Colin named it grind and even you just referred to it as grind. “I know how people run into it and see it as grind.” If ‘people’ see it as grind, it is grind right.. thats how words work.
We agreed some pages back grind is subjective, right? So please, stop and realize what you just said here is that grind is universally if it’s subjectively true. Don’t argue something so absurd.
“I say it is so it must be so” That is then almost as good as your “I say it’s not so, so it can’t be so”
Thing is, if many people do feel the grind (they feel it’s so) that makes a relevant point to debate here. So in a we yes “if people say it’s so, it is so.”
But if people say it’s not so, then that is an affront? Seriously, why do you keep arguing with these logical absurdities?
But for some reason you seem to think you need to downplay this with funny arguments as ‘you don’t need it’. What was, is and stays irrelevant for how people want to play and enjoy a game.
I’m watching you play it up with funny arguments all the time, so I figured I’d give it a shot keeping it within a logical framework rather than rhetoric and appeals to the masses as “more agreement = right”. That’s not how it works, if you want to simultaneously claim something is a universal truth.
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Anyone who says there’s no grind in GW2 is delusional. There WAS no grind in GW2. Since the devs released “updates” that force players to do more and more specific things in the game in order to progress or get rewarded, the game has become nothing but grind.
I only log in once a week or so anymore just to nab any new living story in my journal so I don’t have to pay for it later.
GW2 is more work than actual fun.
But that’s the result of players saying they were sick and tired of RNG based rewards and wanting reward tied to specific content. To be “special” it has to take a long time to get or everyone will end up with a dozen of them.
interesting, but there are otherways of feeling special.
like player gradual player customization
unique looks from a pool of unique looks
overcoming a specific challenge before getting item
Honestly, in theory, mastery can be a good progression system utilizing some of these possibilities, however, i think they are probably going to overdo the numbers and thus turn it into a grind, rather than an adventure.
You still seem to not understand that many people don’t care that much about ‘performance’ as is needing to have the max damage. Some care more about the visual part so then the cosmetics are more or at least just as important / fun as the performance are for others. Meaning it does not change a thing if it does or does not impact the performance. You can keep repeating that as long as you want but it does not change the fact that people run into this grind (you are now finally accepting) and dislike it. Performance or not is completely irrelevant for that. The game is for fun, not for performance.
Is it for performance or fun? Which is it? Because you said the performance is an issue at the top, and ended with that end bit. So . . . what?
Then why are you here actively trying to downplay there complains because the grind is not ‘required’ or does not revolve around ‘performance’. We all know that.. we don’t care. You say thats fine, nobody ask you to parent them but don’t downplay the complete reasonable complain they have about this.
There’s a fine line between “I think this is too much for this” and “I am being forced to do this grind”. I take issue with the latter, which is the tone a lot of the complaints take.
“Gold isn’t hard to come by, so long as you are patient. ” First of all, my example did how why patient will only put you more behind
I’m sorry. I really, truly, am sorry you feel there is no room for patience. This is a point we will have to disagree on entirely, as I feel patience is very much a virtue. Especially when not having patience causes so much distress as you lay out.
“If you want to keep championing for the downtrodden grinders ” Uhhm.. no the grinders are fine. It’s those that want fun ways to hunt down the items in stead of grinding.
If the grind is fine, why are we having this conversation at all?
“In fact, you keep repeating the same thing.” 100% true because I keep answering to the same arguments all the time. Or do you think you said anything new? “It’s grind because I say it’s perceived as grind.” No it’s grind because it’s grind even Colin named it grind and even you just referred to it as grind. “I know how people run into it and see it as grind.” If ‘people’ see it as grind, it is grind right.. thats how words work.
We agreed some pages back grind is subjective, right? So please, stop and realize what you just said here is that grind is universally if it’s subjectively true. Don’t argue something so absurd.
“I say it is so it must be so” That is then almost as good as your “I say it’s not so, so it can’t be so”
Thing is, if many people do feel the grind (they feel it’s so) that makes a relevant point to debate here. So in a we yes “if people say it’s so, it is so.”But if people say it’s not so, then that is an affront? Seriously, why do you keep arguing with these logical absurdities?
But for some reason you seem to think you need to downplay this with funny arguments as ‘you don’t need it’. What was, is and stays irrelevant for how people want to play and enjoy a game.
I’m watching you play it up with funny arguments all the time, so I figured I’d give it a shot keeping it within a logical framework rather than rhetoric and appeals to the masses as “more agreement = right”. That’s not how it works, if you want to simultaneously claim something is a universal truth.
i think you misunderstood devata’s point about patience, there are some items which by being patient you end up working longer to achieve the same goal.
some high price items will inflate in the time it takes you to save up enough money to buy them. (barring a game changing market shift)
Really.. You think people are here just to disagree with Colin? Well at least now I understand your hostility.
No, my hostility such as it is, is reserved for people who argue from positions of logical instability and refuse to see that. Your claim is that your position has merit because it must be so, while telling me a counterclaim has no merit because . . . ?
You continuously flop between “grind” being a universal truth which must be acknowledged or a subjective feeling which is more relevant to the individual.
You continually dismiss arguments as invalid because you do not like what they say, then complain when others do it to you.
In short, if there is hostility you sense . . . dear reader . . . it is because I do not recognize your authority to claim these things as factual when you play this fast and loose with how you debate. I recognize you are more intelligent than what you say, and eagerly await the day you stop with “no, you’re wrong because I say so now don’t tell me I’m wrong because you say so”.
They are not here to just disagree with Colin.
I think some of them are.
They simply explain the grind they run into and that is 100% valid and does not matter if fits or does not fit into the no grind philosophy. They simply have an issue with the game and talk about that here. As much as you have an issue with the NPE and talk about that.
And that’s fine to discuss. I’ve had discussions with more than a few people . . . privately . . . or in map chat sometimes . . . about how they feel and why. You’ll see I actually had a civil one with Ashen, and in another topic I had one with naisonad. . . well, however it’s spelled, when they disagreed with me.
It’s fine to discuss. But the discussion becomes less useful when it starts bearing the resemblance to an ultimatum. When the rhetoric stops being about “me/myself/I” and starts using “we/us/our”, and about rights or demands, it’s no longer a discussion.
But I guess if you say anything about that you are also just wanting to disagree with Anet right..?:S
I don’t care if they do. I disagree with ANet on a lot of things, and I’ve had . . . decently long discussions with at least five people who worked on the game about why I feel there was a mistake made. Even Vayne has points he disagrees with, and if you give him the topic space to do so he will explain at great length. But that’s another issue.
Oow and about that definition you seem to keep telling people are making up but is not a definition Colin agrees with or whatever….
AGAIN:
There are certainly optional activities in the game players can embark on that I think we’d openly accept fall into the category of our definition of more “grindy”. Earning certain unique skins, and in particular some titles absolutely qualify as things we’d put on this list. Legendary weapons have components to them that fall into this category
So yes also Colin agrees this is grind! (why would he not, it’s a general meaning of the word grind. Only people who try to talk away the grind try to say it’s not grind) All Colin did say was that these types of grind are not the grind they are trying to prevent with their no grind philosophy.
And I agreed a while back Ascended gear was grindy. I also noted that as I have earned two of the pieces as loot as opposed to crafting them the long way, I was probably being hypocritical in saying so.
My point of contention has been how it has close to nil in the way of preventing progress in the game as it stands currently. As such, it shouldn’t be argued as a “need” as much as a “desire”. It’s been that way from back when Ascended was introduced in rings/back items, if you feel like diving back and reading.
And what people now here say is. “Well that might be so. But we do still dislike that grind a lot. Being it part of the grind you try to prevent or not.”
Thats all.
I take more issue with the people trying to build around it being “necessary for a complete game experience” when it’s . . . arguably not the case.
There is also nothing misguiding about asking this.
A game like WoW does not have this type of grind so much. If I picked a random mini there, there is a 90% change (no real number!) that I can just go hunt it down in the world. Same for most cosmetics.
Not a question, but I’ll retort for it anyway. What if that random chance happened to pick an item which is no longer available . . . ?
Also, worth noting, the previous game released by this company running GW2? Had problems like these and people seem . . . still . . . quite all right with them.
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Anyone who says there’s no grind in GW2 is delusional. There WAS no grind in GW2. Since the devs released “updates” that force players to do more and more specific things in the game in order to progress or get rewarded, the game has become nothing but grind.
I only log in once a week or so anymore just to nab any new living story in my journal so I don’t have to pay for it later.
GW2 is more work than actual fun.
But that’s the result of players saying they were sick and tired of RNG based rewards and wanting reward tied to specific content. To be “special” it has to take a long time to get or everyone will end up with a dozen of them.
interesting, but there are otherways of feeling special.
like player gradual player customization
unique looks from a pool of unique looks
overcoming a specific challenge before getting itemHonestly, in theory, mastery can be a good progression system utilizing some of these possibilities, however, i think they are probably going to overdo the numbers and thus turn it into a grind, rather than an adventure.
I was referring to the reward as being “special”. Not the player who possessed one.
We are heroes. This is what we do!
RIP City of Heroes
RIP City of Heroes
If your whole issue is that the game doesn’t have enough ways to get gear more directly, then what does that have to do with grinding?
That grinding a currency (mainly gold) is the only way for most items. A direct way can be way less grindy. It could be (but does not have to be) a farm but it’s then not the big gold grind there is now.
Addressing grind doesn’t ensure you get direct methods to get gear.
So that is why we (I) give a more detailed explanation as ‘there is grind, it should go’. While in all honestly I do not see how they would want to have no grind and not direct ways of getting it. Locking it behind a way to high RNG would create grind again, or at least extreme bad farms that aren’t any better.
Seems to me you’re just using the premise of ‘game too grindy’ to justify a shift in paradigm on an unrelated issue.
It’s completely related. I want to go for an items direct but I can’t, there is only the grind way. Thats how and why they are related.
~
“Because you said the performance is an issue at the top”?
“If the grind is fine, why are we having this conversation at all?”
The grinders are are.. Those who like to grind can be happy in this game.
“We agreed some pages back grind is subjective, right? So please, stop and realize what you just said here is that grind”
The exact interpretation and how people feel it is subjective, that does not mean there is no general meaning for the word.
“But if people say it’s not so, then that is an affront? Seriously, why do you keep arguing with these logical absurdities?”
If many people say they feel grind that is a problem. Is that way it’s a true issue. Also of other people say they do not feel grind.
“I’m watching you play it up with funny arguments” Like what? Only funny argument I did see was ’it’s not grind because you do not need it’ and ’it’s irrelevant because it does not fits Colins definition of grind.’
No, my hostility such as it is, is reserved for people who argue from positions of logical instability and refuse to see that.
Logical instability meaning you don’t agree with it. I just said funny arguments where the ’it’s only grind if you need it’ and thats funny because it’s a logical instability so maybe your arguments are not so logical? Of course if you follow an not so logical line everything logical seems not logical.
Not a question, but I’ll retort for it anyway. What if that random chance happened to pick an item which is no longer available . . . ?
That would suck, just ask much as is does in GW2 (there are multiple). Also something I did complain about in the temporary content threads we had here as Anet was doing that a lot back then. Luckily we manage to change Anet’s mind on that. While also in those topics people where defending it.
(edited by Devata.6589)