Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
"No-grind philosophy"
I don’t doubt that a lot of people will disagree with my taste in weapon/armor skins. I know that some agree as well.
Were you one of the Warriors in GW1 running around with Gladiator Prestige Armor dyed pink?
Only on Guild breast cancer awareness days.
Elder Scrolls
Mass Effect
Fallout
Dragon AgeIt’s actually quite easy to make a game with no grind and only content. The thing is, you won’t be able to play it for a loooong time. All of the individual titles in those franchises I played like 100 to 400 hours each. Guild Wars 2 I played 2,500 hours.
And that’s what MMO devs want, to keep you playing. So yea, it is possible, they just won’t do it.
Your list of non grindy MMO’s contains no MMO
“I’ve looked at many equippable cosmetic items”
Of course there is the thing that people are usually more interested in the better looking ones and then your 10g idea kinda go’s out of the door.
Not that it really matters, biggest problem was that everything was based on gold in stead of a direct way remember. And even if those items would all be 10 gold (what isn’t the case, whenever I see one I like it usually is well over 100G) the problem would still be there, while maybe less annoying, the hunt for items would still be destroyed and grinding gold would still be the only option to get all of them.
This is where it gets interesting because all of the best looking skins in game are very inexpensive. Not one of them costs more than 10-20 gold. Most of them cannot be purchased with gold or in the gem shop, they have to be earned by playing specific content such as specific dungeons for specific armor.
Every single 100 gold+ skin in the game is either flat out ugly, tacky, or a joke.
All opinion of course.
Sure but I have a feeling a lot of people would disagree with you. That is also one of the reasons those skins are expensive.. because people want them. You are lucky if you have a taste for the cheaper skins.
A lot of people disagreeing with Ashen, or myself, does not mean we are wrong. Especially on a case built on aesthetic appreciation.
If you like, though, I could start a list for you of things I have looked at on the TP and said “sure, that’s something I like” which has been under 10g to purchase. Just for the skin and not the functionality.
Not to mention it is actually cheaper to get my favorite set of armor as it requires Karma, and not Gold. But that would mean you’d have to agree there is a currency other than Gold or Gems in the game, so I won’t talk about those
. . . oops. I did anyway.
I always talk about currency grind mainly gold. Sorry to break your bad attempt ad being a jack.
I always talk about currency grind mainly gold. Sorry to break your bad attempt ad being a jack.
I prefer Jane, honestly.
Of course, you started this one.
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
“I’ve looked at many equippable cosmetic items”
Of course there is the thing that people are usually more interested in the better looking ones and then your 10g idea kinda go’s out of the door.
Not that it really matters, biggest problem was that everything was based on gold in stead of a direct way remember. And even if those items would all be 10 gold (what isn’t the case, whenever I see one I like it usually is well over 100G) the problem would still be there, while maybe less annoying, the hunt for items would still be destroyed and grinding gold would still be the only option to get all of them.
This is where it gets interesting because all of the best looking skins in game are very inexpensive. Not one of them costs more than 10-20 gold. Most of them cannot be purchased with gold or in the gem shop, they have to be earned by playing specific content such as specific dungeons for specific armor.
Every single 100 gold+ skin in the game is either flat out ugly, tacky, or a joke.
All opinion of course.
Sure but I have a feeling a lot of people would disagree with you. That is also one of the reasons those skins are expensive.. because people want them. You are lucky if you have a taste for the cheaper skins.
People wanting them doesn’t necessarily mean that people think they are attractive. Perceived rarity or prestige comes into play as well. I owned a lot of skins in GW1 that I disliked simply because it meant that I could say that I owned all of the prestigious skins in the game (except Dryad Bow).
I don’t doubt that a lot of people will disagree with my taste in weapon/armor skins. I know that some agree as well.
Well Anet at least tries to make ‘the best looking’ ones and puts them in the cash-shop (or at least attainable with help of the cash-shop) else there would not be enough reason for people to buy them.
Of course tastes are different but it’s easy to see how many of those skins are more shiny or more detailed or have more effects.
One good example would be the Guild back banner (5gold + 5Guild commendations) vs the Mist Herald Back Item (67 gold). The first is much smaller and so less visible then the second one.
I always talk about currency grind mainly gold. Sorry to break your bad attempt ad being a jack.
I prefer Jane, honestly.
Of course, you started this one.
I started what? Every reaction was did seem more like some angry yelling kid then somebody wanting to talk about the issue ad hand.
I started what? Every reaction was did seem more like some angry yelling kid then somebody wanting to talk about the issue ad hand.
You started the talk about cosmetic appearances and how they were too expensive for you. And I suppose you might have had a point somewhere, except then you slid into this problem of disagreeing aesthetic sense, and then finally trying to dismiss it as a threadjack when you started that.
And now trying to repaint it all as some angry five-year old.
Really it comes off more as the nine-year old trying to pretend they didn’t bring up a subject when they started losing an argument. But then, that comparison is unfair. One of the two being compared is brighter than that.
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
I started what? Every reaction was did seem more like some angry yelling kid then somebody wanting to talk about the issue ad hand.
You started the talk about cosmetic appearances and how they were too expensive for you. And I suppose you might have had a point somewhere, except then you slid into this problem of disagreeing aesthetic sense, and then finally trying to dismiss it as a threadjack when you started that.
And now trying to repaint it all as some angry five-year old.
Really it comes off more as the nine-year old trying to pretend they didn’t bring up a subject when they started losing an argument. But then, that comparison is unfair. One of the two being compared is brighter than that.
Losing what argument? That there is grind, that people feel there is grind, that that is a problem? That if people who like to hunt down cosmetics run into a grind? That is not even something you can ‘lose’, thats just a reality and that’s all I have been saying. Not much to lose (or to win for that matter).
The thing is, you have always had your own parallel conversation going on, jumping from one subject to the other and why I still don’t understand. It really always did feel like you where mad because somebody did talk bad about your baby.
I mean seriously what is your point? You feel there is no grind and so nobody should? You don’t want people considering GW2 grindy? You said so much yet nothing at all.
We were told fairly early on that there would be grind for cosmetics. Was that ever in doubt ?
Losing what argument? That there is grind, that people feel there is grind, that that is a problem? That if people who like to hunt down cosmetics run into a grind? That is not even something you can ‘lose’, thats just a reality and that’s all I have been saying. Not much to lose (or to win for that matter).
You really take what I’m saying way too literal.
The thing is, you have always had your own parallel conversation going on, jumping from one subject to the other and why I still don’t understand. It really always did feel like you where mad because somebody did talk bad about your baby.
Hey, that baby is perfectly fine and if you knew little Lady Callahan you’d understand. Oh, wait, were you talking about me treating the game like my baby or my dog?
I view the game as the neighbor’s kid who isn’t all that bright but means well. And who I need to take back to the parents now and then and go “you need to talk to him about some certain subjects, and how pulling my girl’s hair isn’t a known sign of affection, okay? And please, I don’t want to buy his chocolates for his school so here’s $20 for you to stop it, thanks”.
I mean seriously what is your point? You feel there is no grind and so nobody should? You don’t want people considering GW2 grindy? You said so much yet nothing at all.
Now, seriously? I say the same thing to you, really. I’m not sure why you feel the need to grind the axe on this. Was it because you feel you were lied to, when nobody ever made you a promise? Did GW2 kill your cat or something? Did they get caught in a compromising photo with your daughter who is 14?
I’ve made where I stand clear. At least twice, because Ashen and naiasonod have had conversations with me in parallel about this topic and others. I’ve said no more than four times what it is I consider grindy in the game, and heck, at least two people agreed. Yourself included.
And, I’ll add in, I’ve pointed out why I consider “GW2 is grindy because X is grindy” faulty beyond the surface. I’ll go into it again if you like, but I think I’ll have trouble articulating it after so many repetitions of trying to get you to listen to what I say rather than what you thought I said.
So I don’t know why you find it hard to figure out what my “problem” is here. Maybe you should take a few hours, a couple deep breaths, and looking into a mirror to practice your next post before you start it.
Best wishes! I’m off to go practice making risotto which doesn’t turn into mush.
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
We were told fairly early on that there would be grind for cosmetics. Was that ever in doubt ?
I did never hear that claim tbh. A B2P game that was introduced with buzz statements like no grind and only about fun, for casuals that is based around cosmetics. There I do not expect cosmetics to be a boring grind but being built in as rewards for interesting content, being built in the core system of the game. (They did an attempt to have that with legendaries and with the scavenger hunt for the precursor in HoT that might have been oke)
I then expect many fun crafts like musician, toy-maker, inventor, mini tamer and so on. I expect the game to reward that sort of cosmetics for that sort of fun content as this would make all those buzz statements true. But then again, maybe that was a false interpretation from my end. On the other hand, having cosmetics behind a boring grind, while other mmo’s not build around cosmetics have them available in a more interesting way, is not very positive for a game that claims all these things and is built around cosmetics.
If it comes to this cosmetics part GW2 should have completely been my game but on that part it completely failed to deliver and other games are doing a much better job. Guild stuff and WvW is what is still interesting for me in GW2 (And JP’s) and keeps me playing. For HoT I am really interested in the WvW changes and Guild-halls but it would be nice if the cosmetics hunts vs the current grind would also be improved.
Also in many other mmo’s that is a big part of the end-game and if you launch a game that is built around cosmetics you will attract people who like that stuff. But then you scare them away again by having that a grind. Anet might want to try an hold these people when they come back to have a look at HoT.
I did just see the interview of Angry Joe with Colin Johanson and it reminded me of this thread.
Now remember, Angry Joe was one of those persons who loved the game at launch but then got bored with it and left. So it’s very interesting to see it from his perspective.
At 12:50 he refers to grind (to unlock season 2) on what Colin says “nah you can just play”. Basically the excuse most people here use as well. (other then the ‘you do not need it’).
More in the beginning he also talks about ‘zergy’ what is probably partly also the grind as much of the grinding is done in zergs.
Later (around 15:00) Colin says there is a lot of new stuff for returning players because of all the patches we have. On what Joe says “so we talking (about) new skins, new armor, new everything”. So there is more of your ‘you do not need it’ stuff. It’s the first stuff he talks about and yes thats all there…. but most of it behind a (gold) grind.
If returning players see all that stuff behind a wall of grind they get bored with the game very fast. That’s just the reality.
Maybe people who try to defend the grind or act as if it’s not there should try to understand this is how people (including many of those who left) do experience the game. That you do not ‘need’ a skin is irrelevant.
Anyway, it perfectly shows how you should see it from the perspective of players who did love the game and left.
Here is the interview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sG5oUKqbIVM
It’s these types of players who will be coming back and you want to hold this time.
Then the ‘you do not need it’ and ‘you can just play’ excuse is all nice and well in a discussion but it does not help the reality of how people experience the game.
Later (around 15:00) Colin says there is a lot of new stuff for returning players because of all the patches we have. On what Joe says “so we talking (about) new skins, new armor, new everything”. So there is more of your ‘you do not need it’ stuff. It’s the first stuff he talks about and yes thats all there…. but most of it behind a (gold) grind.
I doubt it will be behind a gold grind, actually.
ArenaNet has been cattering to grinders nowadays. But the thing is, the grinders have been grinding and thus they already have a lot of gold. If the new rewards were gold-gated, grinders would get all of them in the first day and be done with the expansion.
Hence all the currencies we have in the game. Just as they introduced a new currency with Dry Top and then another at the Silverwastes, they will likely introduce at least one, and likely many, in the expansion. So grinders have to begin grinding from zero, and thus keep grinding much longer. Which will assure ArenaNet that their target audience will be around longer as well.
What concerns me the most isn’t just the impact of multiple currencies on the game. Other than showing a lack of polish – don’t we have a wallet for currencies? Why aren’t geodes and bandit crests in the wallet, then? – and taking inventory space, they don’t matter much.
What really worries me is, if ArenaNet assumes people are willing to play through content they do not see as fun just to get a reward – in other words, that people are willing to grind -, then the developers have little reason to worry about making content fun. They know their players will play regardless, if there’s a shiny reward at the end.
So ArenaNet could just make “copy & paste” content, fill it with more of the same, give a few new skins as the prize for grinding the “content” over and over and over again, put it in a box, slap it and that’s it, expansion.
We were told fairly early on that there would be grind for cosmetics. Was that ever in doubt ?
I did never hear that claim tbh. A B2P game that was introduced with buzz statements like no grind and only about fun, for casuals that is based around cosmetics. There I do not expect cosmetics to be a boring grind but being built in as rewards for interesting content, being built in the core system of the game. (They did an attempt to have that with legendaries and with the scavenger hunt for the precursor in HoT that might have been oke)
I then expect many fun crafts like musician, toy-maker, inventor, mini tamer and so on. I expect the game to reward that sort of cosmetics for that sort of fun content as this would make all those buzz statements true. But then again, maybe that was a false interpretation from my end. On the other hand, having cosmetics behind a boring grind, while other mmo’s not build around cosmetics have them available in a more interesting way, is not very positive for a game that claims all these things and is built around cosmetics.
If it comes to this cosmetics part GW2 should have completely been my game but on that part it completely failed to deliver and other games are doing a much better job. Guild stuff and WvW is what is still interesting for me in GW2 (And JP’s) and keeps me playing. For HoT I am really interested in the WvW changes and Guild-halls but it would be nice if the cosmetics hunts vs the current grind would also be improved.
Also in many other mmo’s that is a big part of the end-game and if you launch a game that is built around cosmetics you will attract people who like that stuff. But then you scare them away again by having that a grind. Anet might want to try an hold these people when they come back to have a look at HoT.
I heard the claim. Anet always talked about not grinding for BIS gear (which obviously is no longer true), but they did say there would be things to grind for. Having come from Guild Wars 1, I knew what those things would be.
If you’re not grinding for stats, the thing that’s left to grind for is cosmetics.
We were told fairly early on that there would be grind for cosmetics. Was that ever in doubt ?
I did never hear that claim tbh. A B2P game that was introduced with buzz statements like no grind and only about fun, for casuals that is based around cosmetics. There I do not expect cosmetics to be a boring grind but being built in as rewards for interesting content, being built in the core system of the game. (They did an attempt to have that with legendaries and with the scavenger hunt for the precursor in HoT that might have been oke)
I then expect many fun crafts like musician, toy-maker, inventor, mini tamer and so on. I expect the game to reward that sort of cosmetics for that sort of fun content as this would make all those buzz statements true. But then again, maybe that was a false interpretation from my end. On the other hand, having cosmetics behind a boring grind, while other mmo’s not build around cosmetics have them available in a more interesting way, is not very positive for a game that claims all these things and is built around cosmetics.
If it comes to this cosmetics part GW2 should have completely been my game but on that part it completely failed to deliver and other games are doing a much better job. Guild stuff and WvW is what is still interesting for me in GW2 (And JP’s) and keeps me playing. For HoT I am really interested in the WvW changes and Guild-halls but it would be nice if the cosmetics hunts vs the current grind would also be improved.
Also in many other mmo’s that is a big part of the end-game and if you launch a game that is built around cosmetics you will attract people who like that stuff. But then you scare them away again by having that a grind. Anet might want to try an hold these people when they come back to have a look at HoT.I heard the claim. Anet always talked about not grinding for BIS gear (which obviously is no longer true), but they did say there would be things to grind for. Having come from Guild Wars 1, I knew what those things would be.
If you’re not grinding for stats, the thing that’s left to grind for is cosmetics.
What is maybe even worse.. if the game is all based on cosmetics. And it’s worse for gamers who like cosmetics (the type you would think a game all about cosmetics would attract). Anyways, the interview was talking about LS unlocks, not cosmetics.
….
You must be a necromancer…
Later (around 15:00) Colin says there is a lot of new stuff for returning players because of all the patches we have. On what Joe says “so we talking (about) new skins, new armor, new everything”. So there is more of your ‘you do not need it’ stuff. It’s the first stuff he talks about and yes thats all there…. but most of it behind a (gold) grind.
I doubt it will be behind a gold grind, actually.
ArenaNet has been cattering to grinders nowadays. But the thing is, the grinders have been grinding and thus they already have a lot of gold. If the new rewards were gold-gated, grinders would get all of them in the first day and be done with the expansion.
Hence all the currencies we have in the game. Just as they introduced a new currency with Dry Top and then another at the Silverwastes, they will likely introduce at least one, and likely many, in the expansion. So grinders have to begin grinding from zero, and thus keep grinding much longer. Which will assure ArenaNet that their target audience will be around longer as well.
What concerns me the most isn’t just the impact of multiple currencies on the game. Other than showing a lack of polish – don’t we have a wallet for currencies? Why aren’t geodes and bandit crests in the wallet, then? – and taking inventory space, they don’t matter much.
What really worries me is, if ArenaNet assumes people are willing to play through content they do not see as fun just to get a reward – in other words, that people are willing to grind -, then the developers have little reason to worry about making content fun. They know their players will play regardless, if there’s a shiny reward at the end.
So ArenaNet could just make “copy & paste” content, fill it with more of the same, give a few new skins as the prize for grinding the “content” over and over and over again, put it in a box, slap it and that’s it, expansion.
So then it’s not gold but another currency. Even if that would be true (I do think they will add new ones but I don’t think it will basically replace the gold because of the cash-shop and the gold > gems, as that is one of the main reasons for people to grind gold) then the same problem would still apply but simply for a different currency.
….
You must be a necromancer…
Because sometimes I do not answer on the same day?
Elder Scrolls
Mass Effect
Fallout
Dragon AgeIt’s actually quite easy to make a game with no grind and only content. The thing is, you won’t be able to play it for a loooong time. All of the individual titles in those franchises I played like 100 to 400 hours each. Guild Wars 2 I played 2,500 hours.
And that’s what MMO devs want, to keep you playing. So yea, it is possible, they just won’t do it.
Your list of non grindy MMO’s contains no MMO
And If you actually read the rest of the thread after this comment was made you would have known why.
Dear A-net: Please nerf rock. Paper is fine
~Sincerely, Scissors
~Sincerely, Scissors
I did just see the interview of Angry Joe with Colin Johanson and it reminded me of this thread.
Now remember, Angry Joe was one of those persons who loved the game at launch but then got bored with it and left. So it’s very interesting to see it from his perspective.
At 12:50 he refers to grind (to unlock season 2) on what Colin says “nah you can just play”. Basically the excuse most people here use as well. (other then the ‘you do not need it’).
More in the beginning he also talks about ‘zergy’ what is probably partly also the grind as much of the grinding is done in zergs.
Later (around 15:00) Colin says there is a lot of new stuff for returning players because of all the patches we have. On what Joe says “so we talking (about) new skins, new armor, new everything”. So there is more of your ‘you do not need it’ stuff. It’s the first stuff he talks about and yes thats all there…. but most of it behind a (gold) grind.
If returning players see all that stuff behind a wall of grind they get bored with the game very fast. That’s just the reality.
Maybe people who try to defend the grind or act as if it’s not there should try to understand this is how people (including many of those who left) do experience the game. That you do not ‘need’ a skin is irrelevant.
Anyway, it perfectly shows how you should see it from the perspective of players who did love the game and left.
Here is the interview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sG5oUKqbIVMIt’s these types of players who will be coming back and you want to hold this time.
Then the ‘you do not need it’ and ‘you can just play’ excuse is all nice and well in a discussion but it does not help the reality of how people experience the game.
You should check out what Anet’s stance really is about in regards to grind and what they were actually referring to in the manifesto which people have widely misinterpreted.
Optional or “you can just play” are valid statements/arguments. You can experience just about all of the content in this game in greens with the exception of high level fractals. Even then, the content of a level 10 fractal is not significantly different than a level 50. I don’t consider inflated HP/damage by mobs and instabilities as content. Everyone has a choice when they decide to grind.
I did just see the interview of Angry Joe with Colin Johanson and it reminded me of this thread.
Now remember, Angry Joe was one of those persons who loved the game at launch but then got bored with it and left. So it’s very interesting to see it from his perspective.
At 12:50 he refers to grind (to unlock season 2) on what Colin says “nah you can just play”. Basically the excuse most people here use as well. (other then the ‘you do not need it’).
More in the beginning he also talks about ‘zergy’ what is probably partly also the grind as much of the grinding is done in zergs.
Later (around 15:00) Colin says there is a lot of new stuff for returning players because of all the patches we have. On what Joe says “so we talking (about) new skins, new armor, new everything”. So there is more of your ‘you do not need it’ stuff. It’s the first stuff he talks about and yes thats all there…. but most of it behind a (gold) grind.
If returning players see all that stuff behind a wall of grind they get bored with the game very fast. That’s just the reality.
Maybe people who try to defend the grind or act as if it’s not there should try to understand this is how people (including many of those who left) do experience the game. That you do not ‘need’ a skin is irrelevant.
Anyway, it perfectly shows how you should see it from the perspective of players who did love the game and left.
Here is the interview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sG5oUKqbIVMIt’s these types of players who will be coming back and you want to hold this time.
Then the ‘you do not need it’ and ‘you can just play’ excuse is all nice and well in a discussion but it does not help the reality of how people experience the game.
You should check out what Anet’s stance really is about in regards to grind and what they were actually referring to in the manifesto which people have widely misinterpreted.
Optional or “you can just play” are valid statements/arguments. You can experience just about all of the content in this game in greens with the exception of high level fractals. Even then, the content of a level 10 fractal is not significantly different than a level 50. I don’t consider inflated HP/damage by mobs and instabilities as content. Everyone has a choice when they decide to grind.
regardless, there is still the idea of having balanced grinds. For example, leveling can be a grind, or it can be considered fun progression, depending on the balance, and how its designed.
Not every thing is either one thing or the other, there are shades of gray, hue, and saturation.
I think his point is not really that there should be no grind, but rather the amount, and types of grind they put in, are not holding some player types.
And you effectively clarified this argument by describing a two hour grind. That’s not so convincing.
Tobias’s routine wouldn’t count as a grind by the definition Anet has given in this thread.
It would count as one for you, and for me, and seemingly for many others. Which is why Anet’s definition is so troubling; it’s quite self-servingly limited.
I don’t count it as a grind, mostly because I could be doing anything else if I decided not to earn Gold that day. I often do, because I’ll drop into WvW for two or three hours. I’m not doing it now because . . . well, SBI. Nuff said. Silverwastes pretty closely scratches that itch for WvW, though I only sit through maybe one and a half cycles.
I barely care if you consider it a grind or not, really. It was asked how I do it and I answered. It’s a routine I use because it’s what I find interesting enough to do instead of going “meh, log in – log out, call it a night”.
Except that the question was asked in response to this statement that you made:
Is gold a grind? I find it hard to say yes when two hours a day will net me roughly 5g without sticking my head into dungeons. If I did dungeons or spent longer, probably could up that to 20g. And I’ll lay out exactly how I do the 5g to anyone who asks – it’s not a secret, it’s not hard, it’s just working with what you have to do.
So I thought I was implied that I was asking how you made 5g every night without grinding. Your response was that you grind for two hours a night. You went on to clarify that you didn’t consider it a grind because if you didn’t want to earn gold you could do other stuff without grinding. I don’t understand your contribution to this discussion. We were complaining that the sheer amount of gold required to craft end game gear requires serious grinding, and you’re trying to dismiss these complaints on the grounds that you don’t need to grind unless you want gold. It’s like we’re talking in circles here.
I did just see the interview of Angry Joe with Colin Johanson and it reminded me of this thread.
Now remember, Angry Joe was one of those persons who loved the game at launch but then got bored with it and left. So it’s very interesting to see it from his perspective.
At 12:50 he refers to grind (to unlock season 2) on what Colin says “nah you can just play”. Basically the excuse most people here use as well. (other then the ‘you do not need it’).
More in the beginning he also talks about ‘zergy’ what is probably partly also the grind as much of the grinding is done in zergs.
Later (around 15:00) Colin says there is a lot of new stuff for returning players because of all the patches we have. On what Joe says “so we talking (about) new skins, new armor, new everything”. So there is more of your ‘you do not need it’ stuff. It’s the first stuff he talks about and yes thats all there…. but most of it behind a (gold) grind.
If returning players see all that stuff behind a wall of grind they get bored with the game very fast. That’s just the reality.
Maybe people who try to defend the grind or act as if it’s not there should try to understand this is how people (including many of those who left) do experience the game. That you do not ‘need’ a skin is irrelevant.
Anyway, it perfectly shows how you should see it from the perspective of players who did love the game and left.
Here is the interview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sG5oUKqbIVMIt’s these types of players who will be coming back and you want to hold this time.
Then the ‘you do not need it’ and ‘you can just play’ excuse is all nice and well in a discussion but it does not help the reality of how people experience the game.
You should check out what Anet’s stance really is about in regards to grind and what they were actually referring to in the manifesto which people have widely misinterpreted.
Optional or “you can just play” are valid statements/arguments. You can experience just about all of the content in this game in greens with the exception of high level fractals. Even then, the content of a level 10 fractal is not significantly different than a level 50. I don’t consider inflated HP/damage by mobs and instabilities as content. Everyone has a choice when they decide to grind.
The only problem is that that is irrelevant. It’s how people experience what is relevant. And many people experience grind. What was also something that was so clear from the way Angry Joe talked about it. Sure Colin can say “you can play for it” but as soon as Joe would have to earn gold with as target, unlocking the episodes it becomes grinding. Thats how people feel it.
I did just see the interview of Angry Joe with Colin Johanson and it reminded me of this thread.
Now remember, Angry Joe was one of those persons who loved the game at launch but then got bored with it and left. So it’s very interesting to see it from his perspective.
At 12:50 he refers to grind (to unlock season 2) on what Colin says “nah you can just play”. Basically the excuse most people here use as well. (other then the ‘you do not need it’).
More in the beginning he also talks about ‘zergy’ what is probably partly also the grind as much of the grinding is done in zergs.
Later (around 15:00) Colin says there is a lot of new stuff for returning players because of all the patches we have. On what Joe says “so we talking (about) new skins, new armor, new everything”. So there is more of your ‘you do not need it’ stuff. It’s the first stuff he talks about and yes thats all there…. but most of it behind a (gold) grind.
If returning players see all that stuff behind a wall of grind they get bored with the game very fast. That’s just the reality.
Maybe people who try to defend the grind or act as if it’s not there should try to understand this is how people (including many of those who left) do experience the game. That you do not ‘need’ a skin is irrelevant.
Anyway, it perfectly shows how you should see it from the perspective of players who did love the game and left.
Here is the interview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sG5oUKqbIVMIt’s these types of players who will be coming back and you want to hold this time.
Then the ‘you do not need it’ and ‘you can just play’ excuse is all nice and well in a discussion but it does not help the reality of how people experience the game.
You should check out what Anet’s stance really is about in regards to grind and what they were actually referring to in the manifesto which people have widely misinterpreted.
Optional or “you can just play” are valid statements/arguments. You can experience just about all of the content in this game in greens with the exception of high level fractals. Even then, the content of a level 10 fractal is not significantly different than a level 50. I don’t consider inflated HP/damage by mobs and instabilities as content. Everyone has a choice when they decide to grind.
The only problem is that that is irrelevant. It’s how people experience what is relevant. And many people experience grind. What was also something that was so clear from the way Angry Joe talked about it. Sure Colin can say “you can play for it” but as soon as Joe would have to earn gold with as target, unlocking the episodes it becomes grinding. Thats how people feel it.
So it’s irrelevant because you disagree with it? K.
I did just see the interview of Angry Joe with Colin Johanson and it reminded me of this thread.
Now remember, Angry Joe was one of those persons who loved the game at launch but then got bored with it and left. So it’s very interesting to see it from his perspective.
At 12:50 he refers to grind (to unlock season 2) on what Colin says “nah you can just play”. Basically the excuse most people here use as well. (other then the ‘you do not need it’).
More in the beginning he also talks about ‘zergy’ what is probably partly also the grind as much of the grinding is done in zergs.
Later (around 15:00) Colin says there is a lot of new stuff for returning players because of all the patches we have. On what Joe says “so we talking (about) new skins, new armor, new everything”. So there is more of your ‘you do not need it’ stuff. It’s the first stuff he talks about and yes thats all there…. but most of it behind a (gold) grind.
If returning players see all that stuff behind a wall of grind they get bored with the game very fast. That’s just the reality.
Maybe people who try to defend the grind or act as if it’s not there should try to understand this is how people (including many of those who left) do experience the game. That you do not ‘need’ a skin is irrelevant.
Anyway, it perfectly shows how you should see it from the perspective of players who did love the game and left.
Here is the interview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sG5oUKqbIVMIt’s these types of players who will be coming back and you want to hold this time.
Then the ‘you do not need it’ and ‘you can just play’ excuse is all nice and well in a discussion but it does not help the reality of how people experience the game.
You should check out what Anet’s stance really is about in regards to grind and what they were actually referring to in the manifesto which people have widely misinterpreted.
Optional or “you can just play” are valid statements/arguments. You can experience just about all of the content in this game in greens with the exception of high level fractals. Even then, the content of a level 10 fractal is not significantly different than a level 50. I don’t consider inflated HP/damage by mobs and instabilities as content. Everyone has a choice when they decide to grind.
The only problem is that that is irrelevant. It’s how people experience what is relevant. And many people experience grind. What was also something that was so clear from the way Angry Joe talked about it. Sure Colin can say “you can play for it” but as soon as Joe would have to earn gold with as target, unlocking the episodes it becomes grinding. Thats how people feel it.
So it’s irrelevant because you disagree with it? K.
No, it’s a forum where people talk about what they dislike. Then it’s irrelevant what Anet ever meant with there no grind philosophy if people dislike the grind. Because the problem is people disliking the grind. The question is not if that grind finds into the no grind philosophy.
Are you going into any forum thread where people complain or ask for something telling them it’s irrelevant what they like or dislike because Anet never promised that?
I’ve never seen any comment about not “grinding” for BiS gear.
They have always held that you don’t NEED to grind to obtain gear you can play the game in. As stated above, you can complete everything in this game (except for high level fractals) in GREEN gear (that drops like snowflakes from everything).
If you WANT to pursue BiS you will likely have to do some grind (but you are not FORCED to do so to actually play the game content). Heck, with the exception of some Achievements, Ascended gear and Legendary Weapons, the game requires very little grind.
98% of those complaining about “grind” in GW2 appear to have NEVER played a game that actually REQUIRES grind to progress in the game. THAT type of activity is what the GW2 manifesto is stating will not be present in GW2. It’s quite easy to twist any comment into the perception of a lie if your desire is to make someone out to be a liar.
….and as for this thread….
….you take what you kill!
We go out in the world and take our chances
Fate is just the weight of circumstances
That’s the way that lady luck dances
Fate is just the weight of circumstances
That’s the way that lady luck dances
Can the people who can only play 1-2 hours a night explain to me why they want ascended gear?
Because that is how the game was marketed. I used to play a game, WoW, that required me to devote 10-20 hours per week of dailies and organized play in order to obtain the best gear the game had to offer. Worse, they reset the treadmill every six months or so. I don’t want to play that game anymore.
I wanted to go back to my GW1 roots, where upon reaching the Granite Citadel I obtained the best gear the game had to offer. After obtaining superior runes through the normal course of play I spent a week or two hunting down elite skills. From then on I could farm for ectos or sell them as needed. They made no difference to my performance in the game; they were just cosmetic. That’s a true implementation of this no-grind philosophy. Guild Wars 2 has strayed from that. You act as if we’re asking for something novel and crazy. We’re not. We just want Colin’s vision implemented in this game as it was in the previous.
Can you explain to me why a game that claims a no-grinding philosophy should reward grinders with 5-8% higher stats? As for the relevance of high level fractals, why should difficulty of content determine how good your equipment is? If you want a greater challenge, shouldn’t you gear have lower stats?
I’ve never seen any comment about not “grinding” for BiS gear.
They have always held that you don’t NEED to grind to obtain gear you can play the game in. As stated above, you can complete everything in this game (except for high level fractals) in GREEN gear (that drops like snowflakes from everything).
If you WANT to pursue BiS you will likely have to do some grind (but you are not FORCED to do so to actually play the game content). Heck, with the exception of some Achievements, Ascended gear and Legendary Weapons, the game requires very little grind.
98% of those complaining about “grind” in GW2 appear to have NEVER played a game that actually REQUIRES grind to progress in the game. THAT type of activity is what the GW2 manifesto is stating will not be present in GW2. It’s quite easy to twist any comment into the perception of a lie if your desire is to make someone out to be a liar.
….and as for this thread….
….you take what you kill!
“98% of those complaining about “grind” in GW2 appear to have NEVER played a game that actually REQUIRES grind to progress in the game."
No they don’t care for the ‘required’ part. They care for what they like (like cosmetics). And then grind is grind. No matter if it’s ‘required’ or not. And of course it’s never required. It’s always a choice.
For example I did also play those games that supposedly required all the grind (like WoW) but I did never feel that grind because I cared more for cosmetics and that sometimes required some farming but there was no overall grind (like grinding gold) to get 90% of them. Mostly it’s locked behind a dungeon or a quest and so on.
I could not care less for the part you consider ‘required’ so in that light I guess it’s also not that required at all. It just depends on what you prefer.
(edited by Devata.6589)
I did just see the interview of Angry Joe with Colin Johanson and it reminded me of this thread.
Now remember, Angry Joe was one of those persons who loved the game at launch but then got bored with it and left. So it’s very interesting to see it from his perspective.
At 12:50 he refers to grind (to unlock season 2) on what Colin says “nah you can just play”. Basically the excuse most people here use as well. (other then the ‘you do not need it’).
More in the beginning he also talks about ‘zergy’ what is probably partly also the grind as much of the grinding is done in zergs.
Later (around 15:00) Colin says there is a lot of new stuff for returning players because of all the patches we have. On what Joe says “so we talking (about) new skins, new armor, new everything”. So there is more of your ‘you do not need it’ stuff. It’s the first stuff he talks about and yes thats all there…. but most of it behind a (gold) grind.
If returning players see all that stuff behind a wall of grind they get bored with the game very fast. That’s just the reality.
Maybe people who try to defend the grind or act as if it’s not there should try to understand this is how people (including many of those who left) do experience the game. That you do not ‘need’ a skin is irrelevant.
Anyway, it perfectly shows how you should see it from the perspective of players who did love the game and left.
Here is the interview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sG5oUKqbIVMIt’s these types of players who will be coming back and you want to hold this time.
Then the ‘you do not need it’ and ‘you can just play’ excuse is all nice and well in a discussion but it does not help the reality of how people experience the game.
You should check out what Anet’s stance really is about in regards to grind and what they were actually referring to in the manifesto which people have widely misinterpreted.
Optional or “you can just play” are valid statements/arguments. You can experience just about all of the content in this game in greens with the exception of high level fractals. Even then, the content of a level 10 fractal is not significantly different than a level 50. I don’t consider inflated HP/damage by mobs and instabilities as content. Everyone has a choice when they decide to grind.
The only problem is that that is irrelevant. It’s how people experience what is relevant. And many people experience grind. What was also something that was so clear from the way Angry Joe talked about it. Sure Colin can say “you can play for it” but as soon as Joe would have to earn gold with as target, unlocking the episodes it becomes grinding. Thats how people feel it.
So it’s irrelevant because you disagree with it? K.
No, it’s a forum where people talk about what they dislike. Then it’s irrelevant what Anet ever meant with there no grind philosophy if people dislike the grind. Because the problem is people disliking the grind. The question is not if that grind finds into the no grind philosophy.
Are you going into any forum thread where people complain or ask for something telling them it’s irrelevant what they like or dislike because Anet never promised that?
Then people need to quit referencing the manifesto when complaining about grind. It’s one thing to complain about grind in general but it’s totally different when you reference the manifesto and how Anet lied to players.
(edited by Ayrilana.1396)
I’ve never seen any comment about not “grinding” for BiS gear.
Incredibly ironic you are saying that in this topic, in which Colin himself says the comment you claim you have never seen.
98% of those complaining about “grind” in GW2 appear to have NEVER played a game that actually REQUIRES grind to progress in the game. THAT type of activity is what the GW2 manifesto is stating will not be present in GW2. It’s quite easy to twist any comment into the perception of a lie if your desire is to make someone out to be a liar.
Yeah, before accusing people, I would suggest reading the topic you are replying to.
Then people need to quit referencing the manifesto when complaining about grind. It’s one thing to complain about grind in general but it’s totally different when you reference the manifesto and how Anet lied to players.
ArenaNet lied to players in the Manifesto.
I’ve never seen any comment about not “grinding” for BiS gear.
Incredibly ironic you are saying that in this topic, in which Colin himself says the comment you claim you have never seen.
98% of those complaining about “grind” in GW2 appear to have NEVER played a game that actually REQUIRES grind to progress in the game. THAT type of activity is what the GW2 manifesto is stating will not be present in GW2. It’s quite easy to twist any comment into the perception of a lie if your desire is to make someone out to be a liar.
Yeah, before accusing people, I would suggest reading the topic you are replying to.
Then people need to quit referencing the manifesto when complaining about grind. It’s one thing to complain about grind in general but it’s totally different when you reference the manifesto and how Anet lied to players.
ArenaNet lied to players in the Manifesto.
No. Certain players misinterpreted and assumed it meant zero grind. This was then clarified on the first page of this thread.
Can the people who can only play 1-2 hours a night explain to me why they want ascended gear?
Because that is how the game was marketed. I used to play a game, WoW, that required me to devote 10-20 hours per week of dailies and organized play in order to obtain the best gear the game had to offer. Worse, they reset the treadmill every six months or so. I don’t want to play that game anymore.
I wanted to go back to my GW1 roots, where upon reaching the Granite Citadel I obtained the best gear the game had to offer. After obtaining superior runes through the normal course of play I spent a week or two hunting down elite skills. From then on I could farm for ectos or sell them as needed. They made no difference to my performance in the game; they were just cosmetic. That’s a true implementation of this no-grind philosophy. Guild Wars 2 has strayed from that. You act as if we’re asking for something novel and crazy. We’re not. We just want Colin’s vision implemented in this game as it was in the previous.
Can you explain to me why a game that claims a no-grinding philosophy should reward grinders with 5-8% higher stats? …..
Because they EARNED it by playing the game more?
First, you did not get to the Granite Citadel in GW1 and just GET the best equipment in the game. It cost some significant gold (that you had to obtain in some way).
…and when did they say the reward system for GW2 would be equivalent to GW1….I missed that part of the interview. If you have your toon in Exotic gear, your complaints to obtain Ascended are simply unfounded. You have to GRIND to get to high level Fractals and that’s the ONLY game mode that requires Ascended gear….period.
We go out in the world and take our chances
Fate is just the weight of circumstances
That’s the way that lady luck dances
Fate is just the weight of circumstances
That’s the way that lady luck dances
No. Certain players misinterpreted and assumed it meant zero grind. This was then clarified on the first page of this thread.
First page of this thread? By whom? By certain players who misinterpreted the Manifesto?
98% of those complaining about “grind” in GW2 appear to have NEVER played a game that actually REQUIRES grind to progress in the game. THAT type of activity is what the GW2 manifesto is stating will not be present in GW2. It’s quite easy to twist any comment into the perception of a lie if your desire is to make someone out to be a liar.
But some of us are tired of playing a game that REQUIRES grind to progress and were hoping for something better from a game that claims to be redefining traditional MMO conventions. I also don’t know where you’re pulling that number from. I can play that game too: 98% of those disparaging these claims about grinding crafted their ascended pieces back when mats were cheap and are now raking in pure profit from those of us who were late to the game. My number and conjecture is as valid as yours.
The only way to have a no-grind MMO is to have a fully dynamic world, one which GW2 doesn’t have. There are still grinds for almost all aspects, the only difference is what you are grinding for, which in GW2 happens to be cosmetics and ascended/legendaries.
The only way to have a no-grind MMO is to have a fully dynamic world
The only way to have a no-grind MMO is for MMORPG players to stop accepting poorly-made content and demand quality from MMORPG developers. Until that happens, grind is all we’re going to have, because people are willing to accept it.
No. Certain players misinterpreted and assumed it meant zero grind. This was then clarified on the first page of this thread.
First page of this thread? By whom? By certain players who misinterpreted the Manifesto?
As stated, some people dislike the grind in the game and then refer back to the manifesto assuming that Anet meant zero grind when they in fact didn’t. Those familiar with grind in others games would understand what it was that they were referring to. This was further clarified in a post they made on the first page. The grind they were referring to is very different than what others are referring to.
The only way to have a no-grind MMO is to have a fully dynamic world
The only way to have a no-grind MMO is for MMORPG players to stop accepting poorly-made content and demand quality from MMORPG developers. Until that happens, grind is all we’re going to have, because people are willing to accept it.
You cannot have zero grind in an RPG and especially MMO’s. There is absolutely zero probability that developers can create enough content to keep those that dedicate all of their free time to this game. Grind, as well as RNG, is there to prolong the life of the content.
This was further clarified in a post they made on the first page. The grind they were referring to is very different than what others are referring to.
Really? Which post?
You cannot have zero grind in an RPG and especially MMO’s.
Not while players think like that. I’m amazed at how many players have eaten the lie that all MMORPGs need grind, instead of relying on fun and polished content.
Can the people who can only play 1-2 hours a night explain to me why they want ascended gear?
Because that is how the game was marketed. I used to play a game, WoW, that required me to devote 10-20 hours per week of dailies and organized play in order to obtain the best gear the game had to offer. Worse, they reset the treadmill every six months or so. I don’t want to play that game anymore.
I wanted to go back to my GW1 roots, where upon reaching the Granite Citadel I obtained the best gear the game had to offer. After obtaining superior runes through the normal course of play I spent a week or two hunting down elite skills. From then on I could farm for ectos or sell them as needed. They made no difference to my performance in the game; they were just cosmetic. That’s a true implementation of this no-grind philosophy. Guild Wars 2 has strayed from that. You act as if we’re asking for something novel and crazy. We’re not. We just want Colin’s vision implemented in this game as it was in the previous.
Can you explain to me why a game that claims a no-grinding philosophy should reward grinders with 5-8% higher stats? …..
Because they EARNED it by playing the game more?
You’re playing a game, not earning stuff. If you want to earn stuff get a job. If you want to play a game you shell out $40 and install it on your computer.
First, you did not get to the Granite Citadel in GW1 and just GET the best equipment in the game. It cost some significant gold (that you had to obtain in some way).
Actually, I did, and it didn’t cost significant gold or mats. Within my first month of playing I had 5 platinum banked with nothing to spend it on (that’s after buying the gear). I eventually donated it to my guild.
…and when did they say the reward system for GW2 would be equivalent to GW1….I missed that part of the interview.
They said it right here:
So if you love MMORPGs, you should check out Guild Wars 2. But if you hate traditional MMORPGs, then you should really check out Guild Wars 2. Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun
And even repeated it in that same press release:
It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.
If you have your toon in Exotic gear, your complaints to obtain Ascended are simply unfounded. You have to GRIND to get to high level Fractals and that’s the ONLY game mode that requires Ascended gear….period.
So your explanation is that I have no cause to complain. I’m not convinced. This is like telling a level 79 player that they have no cause to complain about being unable to reach level 80 because they can just get upscaled in WvW and do just about everything except Arah.
You cannot have zero grind in an RPG and especially MMO’s.
Not while players think like that. I’m amazed at how many players have eaten the lie that all MMORPGs need grind, instead of relying on fun and polished content.
Care to elaborate on your genius plan to revolutionize the industry? Because last I checked, no MMO will survive without repetitive activity that people will inevitably label a grind.
Also I’m curious as to what your ideas are for creating “fun and polished content” constantly and at next to no cost, since any other scenario would require the introduction of content that has to be repeated.
“You’ll PAY to know what you really think.” ~ J. R. “Bob” Dobbs
(edited by Andred.1087)
This was further clarified in a post they made on the first page. The grind they were referring to is very different than what others are referring to.
Really? Which post?
You cannot have zero grind in an RPG and especially MMO’s.
Not while players think like that. I’m amazed at how many players have eaten the lie that all MMORPGs need grind, instead of relying on fun and polished content.
Oops. My mistake. It was actually made on page four.
Do you really think people would still be doing SW if all of the rewards did not require grind or had an RNG factor? How about the rest of the game?
You cannot have zero grind in an RPG and especially MMO’s.
Not while players think like that. I’m amazed at how many players have eaten the lie that all MMORPGs need grind, instead of relying on fun and polished content.
Care to elaborate on your genius plan to revolutionize the industry? Because last I checked, no MMO will survive without repetitive activity that people will inevitably label a grind.
Ah, you mean very successful MMORPGs like Fury? The Chronicles of Spellborn? The original release of Final Fantasy XIV? The Old Republic? Warhammer Online?
If you haven’t realized, the MMORPG genre is filled with failures. It has, in fact, had far more failures in the recent years than successes – other than the second release of Final Fantasy XIV and maybe Rift, there has been no big success.
One of the reasons for that is because they are all cattering to the same kind of players – grinders. Players who are willing to do content even they feel is not fun and not interesting, just in order to get a reward. This kind of person who is willing to endure a game instead of play a game is (fortunately!) not common enough to make multiple MMORPGs successful.
Oops. My mistake. It was actually made on page four.
Yep. Somehow, I don’t think that was your only mistake in this topic.
You cannot have zero grind in an RPG and especially MMO’s.
Not while players think like that. I’m amazed at how many players have eaten the lie that all MMORPGs need grind, instead of relying on fun and polished content.
Care to elaborate on your genius plan to revolutionize the industry? Because last I checked, no MMO will survive without repetitive activity that people will inevitably label a grind.
Ah, you mean very successful MMORPGs like Fury? The Chronicles of Spellborn? The original release of Final Fantasy XIV? The Old Republic? Warhammer Online?
If you haven’t realized, the MMORPG genre is filled with failures. It has, in fact, had far more failures in the recent years than successes – other than the second release of Final Fantasy XIV and maybe Rift, there has been no big success.
One of the reasons for that is because they are all cattering to the same kind of players – grinders. Players who are willing to do content even they feel is not fun and not interesting, just in order to get a reward. This kind of person who is willing to endure a game instead of play a game is (fortunately!) not common enough to make multiple MMORPGs successful.
Oops. My mistake. It was actually made on page four.
Yep. Somehow, I don’t think that was your only mistake in this topic.
That’s your opinion.
@Bernie: Colin’s statement about not having to spend time “preparing to have fun” still applies despite the grindy nature of ascended acquisition. Very little content is locked away from players who don’t have ascended gear.
No. Certain players misinterpreted and assumed it meant zero grind. This was then clarified on the first page of this thread.
First page of this thread? By whom? By certain players who misinterpreted the Manifesto?
As stated, some people dislike the grind in the game and then refer back to the manifesto assuming that Anet meant zero grind when they in fact didn’t. Those familiar with grind in others games would understand what it was that they were referring to. This was further clarified in a post they made on the first page. The grind they were referring to is very different than what others are referring to.
Sure they clarified that in this thread (2,5 years after release). But that does not mean people already got to the game because they did read about the no grind philosophy. And even in the interview with Angry Joe, Colin seem to try and dismiss the grind and that was not about levels or BiS, no it was about LS episodes. So when people see that it also seems like Anet is having a general anti-grind philosophy. (Not everybody sees this thread, in fact probably more people did see that interview)
Still coming from other games where there is some farming but no never ending currency grind for cosmetics, going to a game all about cosmetics that talks about a no-grind-phylosophy, is it really strange people expect no or not a lot of grind?.. Including for that important part (for this game) cosmetics?
I don’t think you can blame those people for interpreting it that way.
But still in the end it’s not relevant how they interpreted that, it’s relevant how they feel about the game and how they feel about grind in the game and how that effects their joy in the game.
Some people might not even know what it is what they dislike but find the game ‘boring’ and leave. While in fact for (some or many) of them the reason is that if they want to go for many of the cosmetics it’s not that they get specific challenges (like in many other games) but it’s grinding gold. That gets boring. (another thing this game was promoted with.. it’s all about fun)
I really think this is a bigger issue as Anet thinks and I said it before but will repeat it again. HoT will get back many players who did leave the game. But if they leave again after HoT many of them will not return for the next expansion. So they better get it right this time.
We can talk about the manifesto and what somebody meant all day long, but in the end this is what is important. And should be important for all the people that care about GW2. No matter if we agree on what somebody did say or didn’t say.
No. Certain players misinterpreted and assumed it meant zero grind. This was then clarified on the first page of this thread.
First page of this thread? By whom? By certain players who misinterpreted the Manifesto?
As stated, some people dislike the grind in the game and then refer back to the manifesto assuming that Anet meant zero grind when they in fact didn’t. Those familiar with grind in others games would understand what it was that they were referring to. This was further clarified in a post they made on the first page. The grind they were referring to is very different than what others are referring to.
Sure they clarified that in this thread (2,5 years after release). But that does not mean people already got to the game because they did read about the no grind philosophy. And even in the interview with Angry Joe, Colin seem to try and dismiss the grind and that was not about levels or BiS, no it was about LS episodes. So when people see that it also seems like Anet is having a general anti-grind philosophy. (Not everybody sees this thread, in fact probably more people did see that interview)
Still coming from other games where there is some farming but no never ending currency grind for cosmetics, going to a game all about cosmetics that talks about a no-grind-phylosophy, is it really strange people expect no or not a lot of grind?.. Including for that important part (for this game) cosmetics?
I don’t think you can blame those people for interpreting it that way.
But still in the end it’s not relevant how they interpreted that, it’s relevant how they feel about the game and how they feel about grind in the game and how that effects their joy in the game.
Some people might not even know what it is what they dislike but find the game ‘boring’ and leave. While in fact for (some or many) of them the reason is that if they want to go for many of the cosmetics it’s not that they get specific challenges (like in many other games) but it’s grinding gold. That gets boring. (another thing this game was promoted with.. it’s all about fun)
I really think this is a bigger issue as Anet thinks and I said it before but will repeat it again. HoT will get back many players who did leave the game. But if they leave again after HoT many of them will not return for the next expansion. So they better get it right this time.
We can talk about the manifesto and what somebody meant all day long, but in the end this is what is important. And should be important for all the people that care about GW2. No matter if we agree on what somebody did say or didn’t say.
Let’s say that they reduce the grind so that there’s little to none of it. Players now have quick and easy access to all of the rewards and items in the game. How long do you think they would continue playing?
The only way to have a no-grind MMO is to have a fully dynamic world
The only way to have a no-grind MMO is for MMORPG players to stop accepting poorly-made content and demand quality from MMORPG developers. Until that happens, grind is all we’re going to have, because people are willing to accept it.
You cannot have zero grind in an RPG and especially MMO’s. There is absolutely zero probability that developers can create enough content to keep those that dedicate all of their free time to this game. Grind, as well as RNG, is there to prolong the life of the content.
Of course it depends how you define grind. But if all the cosmetics in the cash-shop would be in the game, behind content that is already in the game. And it would not be an extremely undoable RNG (for those that are RNG) or would be a reward for completing it. Then it would not feel like grinding to me and it would be able to keep people busy for a long time. Release an expansion once a year and then add more of those items locked behind tasks and you should be able to keep people busy.
That is how I have always kept me busy in many other mmo’s and it did never feel like a grind. The grind complains there usually came from people wanting BiS gear. (something I do not care for). So I think it is possible.
(Also I still like to play Wolfenstein:ET while I have done the maps many, many, many times over many years. Just because it’s fun. While in an RPGMMO I am more into hunting down nice items and skins and stuff (well usually, not in GW2 because here thats mainly grinding gold))
(edited by Devata.6589)
You cannot have zero grind in an RPG and especially MMO’s. There is absolutely zero probability that developers can create enough content to keep those that dedicate all of their free time to this game. Grind, as well as RNG, is there to prolong the life of the content.
Unfortunately, a lot of the blame comes back on MMO players. No developer, regardless of the size or brilliance of their staff, can keep producing real content for players who want to play a game like it’s a full time job (or even more). The only way to keep them playing is to make them repeat content long after they’ve mastered it in order to get the rewards.
If GW2 was truly a game made for casuals, ArenaNet could signficantly reduce a great deal of the grind in the game and still keep the core audience satisfied. As it is, however, GW2 is being designed to try and keep both casuals and obsessives in game. That means weird kittenizations like Ascended gear, which neither wholly satisfy the obsessives’ need for a treadmill to run nor the casuals’ desire to play now and again and make meaningful progression.