"No-grind philosophy"
We just need to let them know that, between Ascended items and slow dungeon rewards and Legendaries and the new level-based unlocks and the new trait system unlock and etc etc, well… Their “no-grind philosophy” has been extremely grindy.
Twenty seven pages in, I thought I’d quote the OP just to remind people what started this long thread.
Along the way, the thread has shifted to “Is GW2 grindy”? The circular arguments indicate this is probably too general of a question. In reading through the thread, a lot of people have attempted to answer it, but end up answering a different question.
For example, “Is GW2 grindy?” Answer, “Other games are way more grindy.” Which really answers “Is GW2 more or less grindy than other games?”
“Is GW2 grindy?” “No, all the grind is optional.” Which really answers “Do I have to grind in GW2 in order not to be locked out of some content”.
“Is GW2 grind?” Answer, “A full set of light Ascended armor takes 10,800 silk!” which really answers “Getting BiS gear is grindy in GW2.”
So I’d like to throw out a more specific comment for reaction.
In GW2, rewards for grinding are vastly superior to rewards for playing the game without grinding.
True, false, or somewhere in between?
If necessary, I’ll throw out a definition for grinding:
Engaging in activities that have little intrinsic reward (fun) for the purpose of gaining extrinsic reward (phat lootz, cosmetic or statistical).
No. Certain players misinterpreted and assumed it meant zero grind. This was then clarified on the first page of this thread.
First page of this thread? By whom? By certain players who misinterpreted the Manifesto?
As stated, some people dislike the grind in the game and then refer back to the manifesto assuming that Anet meant zero grind when they in fact didn’t. Those familiar with grind in others games would understand what it was that they were referring to. This was further clarified in a post they made on the first page. The grind they were referring to is very different than what others are referring to.
Sure they clarified that in this thread (2,5 years after release). But that does not mean people already got to the game because they did read about the no grind philosophy. And even in the interview with Angry Joe, Colin seem to try and dismiss the grind and that was not about levels or BiS, no it was about LS episodes. So when people see that it also seems like Anet is having a general anti-grind philosophy. (Not everybody sees this thread, in fact probably more people did see that interview)
Still coming from other games where there is some farming but no never ending currency grind for cosmetics, going to a game all about cosmetics that talks about a no-grind-phylosophy, is it really strange people expect no or not a lot of grind?.. Including for that important part (for this game) cosmetics?
I don’t think you can blame those people for interpreting it that way.
But still in the end it’s not relevant how they interpreted that, it’s relevant how they feel about the game and how they feel about grind in the game and how that effects their joy in the game.
Some people might not even know what it is what they dislike but find the game ‘boring’ and leave. While in fact for (some or many) of them the reason is that if they want to go for many of the cosmetics it’s not that they get specific challenges (like in many other games) but it’s grinding gold. That gets boring. (another thing this game was promoted with.. it’s all about fun)
I really think this is a bigger issue as Anet thinks and I said it before but will repeat it again. HoT will get back many players who did leave the game. But if they leave again after HoT many of them will not return for the next expansion. So they better get it right this time.
We can talk about the manifesto and what somebody meant all day long, but in the end this is what is important. And should be important for all the people that care about GW2. No matter if we agree on what somebody did say or didn’t say.
Let’s say that they reduce the grind so that there’s little to none of it. Players now have quick and easy access to all of the rewards and items in the game. How long do you think they would continue playing?
I am not talking about quick and easy. Why is it always that if you say ‘ingame’ or ‘no grind’ it means ‘quick and easy’. How about hard and challenging content?
I don’t want a vendor that gives all rewards away for free. I want to play (play, not work / grind) for them. I guess Liadri would be the perfect example of a ‘hard’ one. Some might be easy, other might have a (doable) rng, some will be hard. spread it out a little. I think they will keep playing until they have what they want but hopefully by that time a new expansion is released with new content and new rewards.
No. Certain players misinterpreted and assumed it meant zero grind. This was then clarified on the first page of this thread.
First page of this thread? By whom? By certain players who misinterpreted the Manifesto?
As stated, some people dislike the grind in the game and then refer back to the manifesto assuming that Anet meant zero grind when they in fact didn’t. Those familiar with grind in others games would understand what it was that they were referring to. This was further clarified in a post they made on the first page. The grind they were referring to is very different than what others are referring to.
Sure they clarified that in this thread (2,5 years after release). But that does not mean people already got to the game because they did read about the no grind philosophy. And even in the interview with Angry Joe, Colin seem to try and dismiss the grind and that was not about levels or BiS, no it was about LS episodes. So when people see that it also seems like Anet is having a general anti-grind philosophy. (Not everybody sees this thread, in fact probably more people did see that interview)
Still coming from other games where there is some farming but no never ending currency grind for cosmetics, going to a game all about cosmetics that talks about a no-grind-phylosophy, is it really strange people expect no or not a lot of grind?.. Including for that important part (for this game) cosmetics?
I don’t think you can blame those people for interpreting it that way.
But still in the end it’s not relevant how they interpreted that, it’s relevant how they feel about the game and how they feel about grind in the game and how that effects their joy in the game.
Some people might not even know what it is what they dislike but find the game ‘boring’ and leave. While in fact for (some or many) of them the reason is that if they want to go for many of the cosmetics it’s not that they get specific challenges (like in many other games) but it’s grinding gold. That gets boring. (another thing this game was promoted with.. it’s all about fun)
I really think this is a bigger issue as Anet thinks and I said it before but will repeat it again. HoT will get back many players who did leave the game. But if they leave again after HoT many of them will not return for the next expansion. So they better get it right this time.
We can talk about the manifesto and what somebody meant all day long, but in the end this is what is important. And should be important for all the people that care about GW2. No matter if we agree on what somebody did say or didn’t say.
Let’s say that they reduce the grind so that there’s little to none of it. Players now have quick and easy access to all of the rewards and items in the game. How long do you think they would continue playing?
I am not talking about quick and easy. Why is it always that if you say ‘ingame’ or ‘no grind’ it means ‘quick and easy’. How about hard and challenging content?
I don’t want a vendor that gives all rewards away for free. I want to play (play, not work / grind) for them. I guess Liadri would be the perfect example of a ‘hard’ one. Some might be easy, other might have a (doable) rng, some will be hard. spread it out a little. I think they will keep playing until they have what they want but hopefully by that time a new expansion is released with new content and new rewards.
It’s because the same people that have argued against grind are the same ones that don’t want challenging and hard content.
No. Certain players misinterpreted and assumed it meant zero grind. This was then clarified on the first page of this thread.
First page of this thread? By whom? By certain players who misinterpreted the Manifesto?
As stated, some people dislike the grind in the game and then refer back to the manifesto assuming that Anet meant zero grind when they in fact didn’t. Those familiar with grind in others games would understand what it was that they were referring to. This was further clarified in a post they made on the first page. The grind they were referring to is very different than what others are referring to.
Sure they clarified that in this thread (2,5 years after release). But that does not mean people already got to the game because they did read about the no grind philosophy. And even in the interview with Angry Joe, Colin seem to try and dismiss the grind and that was not about levels or BiS, no it was about LS episodes. So when people see that it also seems like Anet is having a general anti-grind philosophy. (Not everybody sees this thread, in fact probably more people did see that interview)
Still coming from other games where there is some farming but no never ending currency grind for cosmetics, going to a game all about cosmetics that talks about a no-grind-phylosophy, is it really strange people expect no or not a lot of grind?.. Including for that important part (for this game) cosmetics?
I don’t think you can blame those people for interpreting it that way.
But still in the end it’s not relevant how they interpreted that, it’s relevant how they feel about the game and how they feel about grind in the game and how that effects their joy in the game.
Some people might not even know what it is what they dislike but find the game ‘boring’ and leave. While in fact for (some or many) of them the reason is that if they want to go for many of the cosmetics it’s not that they get specific challenges (like in many other games) but it’s grinding gold. That gets boring. (another thing this game was promoted with.. it’s all about fun)
I really think this is a bigger issue as Anet thinks and I said it before but will repeat it again. HoT will get back many players who did leave the game. But if they leave again after HoT many of them will not return for the next expansion. So they better get it right this time.
We can talk about the manifesto and what somebody meant all day long, but in the end this is what is important. And should be important for all the people that care about GW2. No matter if we agree on what somebody did say or didn’t say.
Let’s say that they reduce the grind so that there’s little to none of it. Players now have quick and easy access to all of the rewards and items in the game. How long do you think they would continue playing?
I am not talking about quick and easy. Why is it always that if you say ‘ingame’ or ‘no grind’ it means ‘quick and easy’. How about hard and challenging content?
I don’t want a vendor that gives all rewards away for free. I want to play (play, not work / grind) for them. I guess Liadri would be the perfect example of a ‘hard’ one. Some might be easy, other might have a (doable) rng, some will be hard. spread it out a little. I think they will keep playing until they have what they want but hopefully by that time a new expansion is released with new content and new rewards.
It’s because the same people that have argued against grind are the same ones that don’t want challenging and hard content.
I have seen the Liadri example being used many times on this forum(not only by me) so I think thats an incorrect assessment you made there.
No. Certain players misinterpreted and assumed it meant zero grind. This was then clarified on the first page of this thread.
First page of this thread? By whom? By certain players who misinterpreted the Manifesto?
As stated, some people dislike the grind in the game and then refer back to the manifesto assuming that Anet meant zero grind when they in fact didn’t. Those familiar with grind in others games would understand what it was that they were referring to. This was further clarified in a post they made on the first page. The grind they were referring to is very different than what others are referring to.
Sure they clarified that in this thread (2,5 years after release). But that does not mean people already got to the game because they did read about the no grind philosophy. And even in the interview with Angry Joe, Colin seem to try and dismiss the grind and that was not about levels or BiS, no it was about LS episodes. So when people see that it also seems like Anet is having a general anti-grind philosophy. (Not everybody sees this thread, in fact probably more people did see that interview)
Still coming from other games where there is some farming but no never ending currency grind for cosmetics, going to a game all about cosmetics that talks about a no-grind-phylosophy, is it really strange people expect no or not a lot of grind?.. Including for that important part (for this game) cosmetics?
I don’t think you can blame those people for interpreting it that way.
But still in the end it’s not relevant how they interpreted that, it’s relevant how they feel about the game and how they feel about grind in the game and how that effects their joy in the game.
Some people might not even know what it is what they dislike but find the game ‘boring’ and leave. While in fact for (some or many) of them the reason is that if they want to go for many of the cosmetics it’s not that they get specific challenges (like in many other games) but it’s grinding gold. That gets boring. (another thing this game was promoted with.. it’s all about fun)
I really think this is a bigger issue as Anet thinks and I said it before but will repeat it again. HoT will get back many players who did leave the game. But if they leave again after HoT many of them will not return for the next expansion. So they better get it right this time.
We can talk about the manifesto and what somebody meant all day long, but in the end this is what is important. And should be important for all the people that care about GW2. No matter if we agree on what somebody did say or didn’t say.
Let’s say that they reduce the grind so that there’s little to none of it. Players now have quick and easy access to all of the rewards and items in the game. How long do you think they would continue playing?
I am not talking about quick and easy. Why is it always that if you say ‘ingame’ or ‘no grind’ it means ‘quick and easy’. How about hard and challenging content?
I don’t want a vendor that gives all rewards away for free. I want to play (play, not work / grind) for them. I guess Liadri would be the perfect example of a ‘hard’ one. Some might be easy, other might have a (doable) rng, some will be hard. spread it out a little. I think they will keep playing until they have what they want but hopefully by that time a new expansion is released with new content and new rewards.
It’s because the same people that have argued against grind are the same ones that don’t want challenging and hard content.
I have seen the Liadri example being used many times on this forum(not only by me) so I think thats an incorrect assessment you made there.
The statement wasn’t all inclusive. This topic has gone on since the game was released and there’s always a number of people that are against making hard content as well as grindy content. I vaguely remember someone comparing the need to gain the skill to overcome difficult content as a grind as ridiculous as that sounds.
If necessary, I’ll throw out a definition for grinding:
Engaging in activities that have little intrinsic reward (fun) for the purpose of gaining extrinsic reward (phat lootz, cosmetic or statistical).
Yeah I agree. But what also counts (for me) as well is the currency. Because most things are locked behind a currency and not behind direct content it even feels more like grinding / working.
It’s because the same people that have argued against grind are the same ones that don’t want challenging and hard content.
Who?
If it’s as common as you say, and considering this is a topic complaining about grind, there should be examples easily available. I’m curious as to who has claimed that grind and hard content should go.
….
You must be a necromancer…
Because sometimes I do not answer on the same day?
Because it’s 24 days after the last post, which was also by you…
It’s because the same people that have argued against grind are the same ones that don’t want challenging and hard content.
Who?
If it’s as common as you say, and considering this is a topic complaining about grind, there should be examples easily available. I’m curious as to who has claimed that grind and hard content should go.
It’s more difficult to find them now that they’ve hidden the old BLTC archive forum so I don’t think it’s worth it. I could probably search through the post history of the more vocal people in this thread but would it really achieve anything? i will take a look in this thread though to see if someone did make that statement.
Actually, I just remembered. I believe this was brought up briefly in one if the threads about SW. Someone was complaining about how grindy getting the parts was but also complaining about how difficult some of the story achievements were and that they should just be able to buy them (the episode achievement rewards) from the vendor
(edited by Ayrilana.1396)
It’s because the same people that have argued against grind are the same ones that don’t want challenging and hard content.
Who?
If it’s as common as you say, and considering this is a topic complaining about grind, there should be examples easily available. I’m curious as to who has claimed that grind and hard content should go.
It’s more difficult to find them now that they’ve hidden the old BLTC archive forum so I don’t think it’s worth it. I could probably search through the post history of the more vocal people in this thread but would it really achieve anything? i will take a look in this thread though to see if someone did make that statement.
Actually, I just remembered. I believe this was brought up briefly in one if the threads about SW. Someone was complaining about how grindy getting the parts was but also complaining about how difficult some of the story achievements were and that they should just be able to buy them (the episode achievement rewards) from the vendor
They should just make these achievements sellable in the TP I mean really everything else of value is there even stuff you can’t get in the game from drops any longer is in the TP why not. Then there would be so few of those that people would have to buy gems just to get those too. Isn’t that part of the philosophy we’re seeing here anyway?
MMORPGames have gone from playing to get what you’d like to buying them and really I’ve not seen a game thats been released since 2011 that hasn’t had the buy it if you want it philosophy (many are cleverly disguised) which is a direct reflection on just who came into the gaming market for mmo’s around 2011 as far as the types of gamers.
I’m all for achievements but at the same time I’m for reasonable time frames. GW2 doesn’t have as crazy a time frame as some I’ll admit for some of it’s items but some of them are just outright impossible because they rely on old algorithms from when MMOs were in their infancy and people didn’t know better. They couldn’t even leave RNG out of the latest collector achievements, really why was that a thing? I’d much rather go and do the tasks to complete them to be able to get the special items from collecting then wait and see if an item actually dropped that day on one of my characters from chests you either had to find from shovels or find when a storm hit only to have to farm to open them. I mean why is it that some of the most basic aspects of the game like collecting stuff, why is even that stuck behind an RNG wall as well? Shouldn’t they change the name from “collections” to “lotteries”?
Collections is supposed to be just that collecting. Go here get this item there bam you’re done or go and find the items but they’ll actually drop 100% when you pick them up so you can complete the set. So it really amazes me that they think this is normal. It’s like going to use the restroom and you don’t know if you are going to or not you have to see what drops. /sarcasm.
The “no grind” philosophy is something that doesn’t exist in the minds of the developers of this game they really have no idea how to design something without using RNG and it just astonishes some of us.
Balance Team: Please Fix Mine Toolbelt Positioning!
I’ve never seen any comment about not “grinding” for BiS gear.
Incredibly ironic you are saying that in this topic, in which Colin himself says the comment you claim you have never seen.
98% of those complaining about “grind” in GW2 appear to have NEVER played a game that actually REQUIRES grind to progress in the game. THAT type of activity is what the GW2 manifesto is stating will not be present in GW2. It’s quite easy to twist any comment into the perception of a lie if your desire is to make someone out to be a liar.
Yeah, before accusing people, I would suggest reading the topic you are replying to.
Then people need to quit referencing the manifesto when complaining about grind. It’s one thing to complain about grind in general but it’s totally different when you reference the manifesto and how Anet lied to players.
ArenaNet lied to players in the Manifesto.
Since a manifesto is only a statement of intent, and since you can’t prove Anet’s intent (whether they succeeded or not), you’re lying by saying Anet lied.
A manifesto is definitely 100% a statement of intent, not a guarantee of delivery. The ONLY way you can say Anet lied without lying yourself is to prove that they didn’t intend what they said at the time they said it.
If you can do that, go ahead.
I’ve never seen any comment about not “grinding” for BiS gear.
Incredibly ironic you are saying that in this topic, in which Colin himself says the comment you claim you have never seen.
98% of those complaining about “grind” in GW2 appear to have NEVER played a game that actually REQUIRES grind to progress in the game. THAT type of activity is what the GW2 manifesto is stating will not be present in GW2. It’s quite easy to twist any comment into the perception of a lie if your desire is to make someone out to be a liar.
Yeah, before accusing people, I would suggest reading the topic you are replying to.
Then people need to quit referencing the manifesto when complaining about grind. It’s one thing to complain about grind in general but it’s totally different when you reference the manifesto and how Anet lied to players.
ArenaNet lied to players in the Manifesto.
Since a manifesto is only a statement of intent, and since you can’t prove Anet’s intent (whether they succeeded or not), you’re lying by saying Anet lied.
A manifesto is definitely 100% a statement of intent, not a guarantee of delivery. The ONLY way you can say Anet lied without lying yourself is to prove that they didn’t intend what they said at the time they said it.
If you can do that, go ahead.
Edit: In fact their EXACT line was “We don’t want people to grind” ,which is quite different than saying people can’t find a way to grind.
They may very well not want people to grind. Do you know better?
We just need to let them know that, between Ascended items and slow dungeon rewards and Legendaries and the new level-based unlocks and the new trait system unlock and etc etc, well… Their “no-grind philosophy” has been extremely grindy.
Twenty seven pages in, I thought I’d quote the OP just to remind people what started this long thread.
Along the way, the thread has shifted to “Is GW2 grindy”? The circular arguments indicate this is probably too general of a question. In reading through the thread, a lot of people have attempted to answer it, but end up answering a different question.
For example, “Is GW2 grindy?” Answer, “Other games are way more grindy.” Which really answers “Is GW2 more or less grindy than other games?”
“Is GW2 grindy?” “No, all the grind is optional.” Which really answers “Do I have to grind in GW2 in order not to be locked out of some content”.
“Is GW2 grind?” Answer, “A full set of light Ascended armor takes 10,800 silk!” which really answers “Getting BiS gear is grindy in GW2.”
So I’d like to throw out a more specific comment for reaction.
In GW2, rewards for grinding are vastly superior to rewards for playing the game without grinding.
True, false, or somewhere in between?
id say this is the big issue. The problem with many of the grinds they design, is that its best achieved in the least fun ways possible. A good incentive in game design, is one that makes you do the most fun things/best designed things in order to succeed at the game.
for basketball, getting the ball through the hoop is probably one of the more entertaining aspects
For baseball, hitting the ball
In Tony hawks skating, doing tricks gives the most rewards.
But yeah the point of the thread was, the game they have designed does not feel like a no grind philosophy game.
A lot of people on this thread have the wrong definition of grind. They think if some is not handed to them and they have to work for it than it’s grindy. Grind refers to leveling therefore all these other things such as ascended gear and legendaries are not grindy because you do not need then. It doesn’t matter how many times you say it. It still doesn’t change what grind is.
A lot of people on this thread have the wrong definition of grind. They think if some is not handed to them and they have to work for it than it’s grindy. Grind refers to leveling therefore all these other things such as ascended gear and legendaries are not grindy because you do not need then. It doesn’t matter how many times you say it. It still doesn’t change what grind is.
There’s reasonable and then there’s grind. We’re all talking about grind here not the aspect of going and doing something to achieve something. there is a difference and it’s easy to see the difference. For example, STO added specializations to their game, it takes 1 character 3.5 years to completely fillout the initial specializations they added. That to me is no different than what’s happening here with the gear progression in this game and it’s a rational fear some of us have that specs in this game may become just as crazy when HoT releases considering the mountain of evidence of what even the most basic of activities like my example above of the collection achievements were turned into.
Balance Team: Please Fix Mine Toolbelt Positioning!
(edited by tigirius.9014)
A lot of people on this thread have the wrong definition of grind. They think if some is not handed to them and they have to work for it than it’s grindy. Grind refers to leveling therefore all these other things such as ascended gear and legendaries are not grindy because you do not need then. It doesn’t matter how many times you say it. It still doesn’t change what grind is.
grind doesnt refer to leveling alone, it never did.
I’ve got my super umbrella ready for the raining buckets of tears when HoT is considered ‘grindy’. These are just the clouds off in the distance.
I’ve got my super umbrella ready for the raining buckets of tears when HoT is considered ‘grindy’. These are just the clouds off in the distance.
thats kind of the point of the thread.
The OP doesnt feel that anet understands what people think when they hear the phrase “no-grind philosophy”
Its fairly likely that Hot will be pretty grindy. But looks like they are trying to focus the grind on experience gain, which is probably a thing they can control better.
Edit: In fact their EXACT line was “We don’t want people to grind” ,which is quite different than saying people can’t find a way to grind.
They may very well not want people to grind. Do you know better?
Yep.
Which can easily be proved by seeing how not only the game rewards grind, but it also has areas which are basically huge grinds (see the Silverwastes).
The statement “We don’t want people to grind” is factually a lie – if that were true, ArenaNet would not allow people to grind, much less make grind far more rewarding than not grinding.
Grind refers to leveling therefore all these other things such as ascended gear and legendaries are not grindy because you do not need then. It doesn’t matter how many times you say it. It still doesn’t change what grind is.
Sorry buddy, but when ArenaNet is talking about what they claim to be grind in the game they made, it matters far more than what you say. And as mentioned in this topic, your definition of grind is wrong – since it’s divergent from ArenaNet’s own definition.
Edit: In fact their EXACT line was “We don’t want people to grind” ,which is quite different than saying people can’t find a way to grind.
They may very well not want people to grind. Do you know better?
Yep.
Which can easily be proved by seeing how not only the game rewards grind, but it also has areas which are basically huge grinds (see the Silverwastes).
The statement “We don’t want people to grind” is factually a lie – if that were true, ArenaNet would not allow people to grind, much less make grind far more rewarding than not grinding.
Grind refers to leveling therefore all these other things such as ascended gear and legendaries are not grindy because you do not need then. It doesn’t matter how many times you say it. It still doesn’t change what grind is.
Sorry buddy, but when ArenaNet is talking about what they claim to be grind in the game they made, it matters far more than what you say. And as mentioned in this topic, your definition of grind is wrong – since it’s divergent from ArenaNet’s own definition.
What matters most is that you’re considering a manifesto a promise, not a statement of intent. No matter what the statement of intent was 2 years before launch, even if it did change, it wouldn’t have been a lie while stated.
You’re so attached to maligning the company that you refuse to acknowledge even the most basic truth.
Fact. The manifesto came out 2 years before launch.
Fact. A manifesto is a statement of intent.
Fact. There is no evidence when that was said that it wasn’t the intention.
Those are the facts.
Fact. The manifesto came out 2 years before launch.
Fact. The manifesto was used during release as one of ArenaNet’s main marketing tools. If it did not represent ArenaNet’s intent during release, as it didn’t, then it was a lie.
Fact. A manifesto is a statement of intent.
Fact. Saying you intend on doing something while you know what you will actually do is the opposite is a lie.
Fact. There is no evidence when that was said that it wasn’t the intention.
Fact. ArenaNet has stated that they planned to introduce Ascended gear, one of the grindiest things in the game, even before release. With release being the time when they were saying “We don’t want players to grind”.
The Manifesto is a lie. That is the fact.
Fact. The manifesto came out 2 years before launch.
Fact. The manifesto was used during release as one of ArenaNet’s main marketing tools. If it did not represent ArenaNet’s intent during release, as it didn’t, then it was a lie.
Fact. A manifesto is a statement of intent.
Fact. Saying you intend on doing something while you know what you will actually do is the opposite is a lie.
Fact. There is no evidence when that was said that it wasn’t the intention.
Fact. ArenaNet has stated that they planned to introduce Ascended gear, one of the grindiest things in the game, even before release. With release being the time when they were saying “We don’t want players to grind”.
The Manifesto is a lie. That is the fact.
They didn’t say how long before launch they intended to launch it. And they didn’t say that it was going to be launched with the same exact mechanism that it eventually launched with. You assuming things doesn’t make anything a lie.
Why can’t you simply say I find the game grindy instead of maligning people.
They didn’t say how long before launch they intended to launch it.
Irrelevant. They already knew it would be a tier above exotics and that it would be something between exotics and legendaries, which imply a degree of grind. And even ignoring ascended, what arguably is the biggest reward in the game – the legendaries themselves – are behind a huge wall of grind. It’s not possible to hear ArenaNet saying “We don’t want players to grind” while they had just created how legendaries are acquired and not know it was a lie.
You could just say you really like ArenaNet and GW2, but there isn’t any way around this. The Manifesto was a lie, from a time in which ArenaNet used marketing to try to catter to the demography opposite to their current target audience. Because if in the beginning they said they didn’t want players to grind, they have been adding more and more content for grinders in the game.
They didn’t say how long before launch they intended to launch it.
Irrelevant. They already knew it would be a tier above exotics and that it would be something between exotics and legendaries, which imply a degree of grind. And even ignoring ascended, what arguably is the biggest reward in the game – the legendaries themselves – are behind a huge wall of grind. It’s not possible to hear ArenaNet saying “We don’t want players to grind” while they had just created how legendaries are acquired and not know it was a lie.
You could just say you really like ArenaNet and GW2, but there isn’t any way around this. The Manifesto was a lie, from a time in which ArenaNet used marketing to try to catter to the demography opposite to their current target audience. Because if in the beginning they said they didn’t want players to grind, they have been adding more and more content for grinders in the game.
Saying there’s a tier above exotics and saying you have to grind for it are completely different things. You don’t know. You’re assuming. You’re using the assumption to malign. It’s obvious to most people what you’re doing.
As long as you continue to do that, you’re automatically hamstringing any reasonable argument you may now have.
It’s very easy to say I think there’s grind in this game without bringing up a four year old video. You refuse to do that and that actually detracts from your argument rather than strengthens it. And you know you can keep doing it, if you want. I don’t care much if your arguments aren’t as strong as they can be. But at best it’s a distraction from the thread. It’s certainly in no way a fact.
And that’s all I’ll say on the matter, so feel free to have the last word.
Saying there’s a tier above exotics and saying you have to grind for it are completely different things. You don’t know. You’re assuming. You’re using the assumption to malign. It’s obvious to most people what you’re doing.
One could easily counter argument that you’re trying to defend ArenaNet while ignoring the evidence in front of you, and that it’s obvious to most people what you’re doing.
As an example, there is zero assumptions in saying that, by the time of release, ArenaNet knew very well that there was a huge grind in the game in order to get legendaries, at the same time they had at the front of their website the video in which they claimed they don’t want players to grind.
There is no way around it. It’s simply a fact – the Manifesto was something ArenaNet knew wasn’t true at the very same time they were using it as a marketing tool.
Saying there’s a tier above exotics and saying you have to grind for it are completely different things. You don’t know. You’re assuming. You’re using the assumption to malign. It’s obvious to most people what you’re doing.
One could easily counter argument that you’re trying to defend ArenaNet while ignoring the evidence in front of you, and that it’s obvious to most people what you’re doing.
As an example, there is zero assumptions in saying that, by the time of release, ArenaNet knew very well that there was a huge grind in the game in order to get legendaries, at the same time they had at the front of their website the video in which they claimed they don’t want players to grind.
There is no way around it. It’s simply a fact – the Manifesto was something ArenaNet knew wasn’t true at the very same time they were using it as a marketing tool.
- Grind: To us, grind means being required to do the same boring activity over and over again. In particular, the biggest reference we’re talking about here in traditional MMO’s is having to kill the same creatures over and over again to farm for levels or gear. In Gw2, you can gain exp and levels from a massive variety of game play, game modes, and content types. Same goes for the ability to acquire the gear to build up your characters. Similarly, ascended mats can be acquired from a wide variety of content types and game modes to allow you choice and options so you don’t need to grind to complete those goals. Our new mastery system continues to this promise as well, which we’ll go into more detail on soon.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy/page/4#post4733273
So if you love MMORPGs, you should check out Guild Wars 2. But if you hate traditional MMORPGs, then you should really check out Guild Wars 2. Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun; and of course, it doesn’t have a monthly fee.
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/guild-wars-2-design-manifesto/
Also the video. Pay attention to exactly what he says starting around the the 1:15 mark. Listen to everything that he says.
(edited by Ayrilana.1396)
Saying there’s a tier above exotics and saying you have to grind for it are completely different things. You don’t know. You’re assuming. You’re using the assumption to malign. It’s obvious to most people what you’re doing.
One could easily counter argument that you’re trying to defend ArenaNet while ignoring the evidence in front of you, and that it’s obvious to most people what you’re doing.
As an example, there is zero assumptions in saying that, by the time of release, ArenaNet knew very well that there was a huge grind in the game in order to get legendaries, at the same time they had at the front of their website the video in which they claimed they don’t want players to grind.
There is no way around it. It’s simply a fact – the Manifesto was something ArenaNet knew wasn’t true at the very same time they were using it as a marketing tool.
- Grind: To us, grind means being required to do the same boring activity over and over again. In particular, the biggest reference we’re talking about here in traditional MMO’s is having to kill the same creatures over and over again to farm for levels or gear. In Gw2, you can gain exp and levels from a massive variety of game play, game modes, and content types. Same goes for the ability to acquire the gear to build up your characters. Similarly, ascended mats can be acquired from a wide variety of content types and game modes to allow you choice and options so you don’t need to grind to complete those goals. Our new mastery system continues to this promise as well, which we’ll go into more detail on soon.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy/page/4#post4733273
So if you love MMORPGs, you should check out Guild Wars 2. But if you hate traditional MMORPGs, then you should really check out Guild Wars 2. Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun; and of course, it doesn’t have a monthly fee.
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/guild-wars-2-design-manifesto/
That quote that you bolded now becomes the issue of contention. Anet said back in the day, that in most games you have to level up before you get to the good part of doing end game content, ie raids.
They’re saying in Guild Wars 2, if you want to PvP you can do that from very early on without grinding. If you want to level you get XP for virtually everything. You don’t have to grind one instance to level, or grind mobs to level. They’re saying you don’t have to get to end game to have a cool encounter like the Shadow Behemoth (which was a specific example they used at the time).
They’re saying you’re not locked out of content while having to grind. They never said there would be no items that didn’t require grind that were cosmetic.
Exactly. People didn’t read/comprehend what was stated in the manifesto blog nor did they do the same for what was said in the video. They were talking about combat.
That quote that you bolded now becomes the issue of contention. Anet said back in the day, that in most games you have to level up before you get to the good part of doing end game content, ie raids.
They were talking about combat.
Ummmmmmmm,
When our company president said we have an anti-grind philosophy way back before Gw2 shipped, and when it has been repeatedly reinforced since then, our statement is simply: “We don’t think you should need to grind to get the best gear and stats in Guild Wars 2”.
That quote that you bolded now becomes the issue of contention. Anet said back in the day, that in most games you have to level up before you get to the good part of doing end game content, ie raids.
They were talking about combat.
Ummmmmmmm,
When our company president said we have an anti-grind philosophy way back before Gw2 shipped, and when it has been repeatedly reinforced since then, our statement is simply: “We don’t think you should need to grind to get the best gear and stats in Guild Wars 2”.
Again. Read the manifesto blog and listen to what he says in the video.
Again. Read the manifesto blog and listen to what he says in the video.
So Colin is lying in his quote. Okay.
I’m sure you and Vayne know better than Colin what they meant.
Again. Read the manifesto blog and listen to what he says in the video.
So Colin is lying in his quote. Okay.
I’m sure you and Vayne know better than Colin what they meant.
He’s adding onto what they were referring to in the manifesto. What we are talking about is what is specifically stated in the manifesto.
He’s adding onto what they were referring to in the manifesto.
He’s not “adding” onto anything. His quote spells it out clearly. They were talking about gear grind.
What we are talking about is what is specifically stated in the manifesto.
When our company president said we have an anti-grind philosophy way back before Gw2 shipped,
Way back before the game shipped. i.e.: The manifesto.
He’s adding onto what they were referring to in the manifesto.
He’s not “adding” onto anything. His quote spells it out clearly. They were talking about gear grind.
What we are talking about is what is specifically stated in the manifesto.
When our company president said we have an anti-grind philosophy way back before Gw2 shipped,
Way back before the game shipped. i.e.: The manifesto.
Read the manifesto blog. Watch the video for it. We’re talking about what is specifically stated in the manifesto.
Again. Read the manifesto blog and listen to what he says in the video.
So Colin is lying in his quote. Okay.
I’m sure you and Vayne know better than Colin what they meant.
I’m sure Colin didn’t write the manifesto. He performed it. What he said was very likely what someone wrote. It’s clear from the words at least what isn’t being talked about.
More to the point, I’m sure Colin after five years of not thinking about it knows exactly what he meant five years ago. Hell most people don’t know what they meant a year later never mind five.
Imagine that someone asked you what you meant when you said something five years ago. Like you’d even remember. To a fan who listened to the manifesto this was a major thing and it’s ingrained in their psyche. To Colin it was one day out of many days making a game. What makes you think this is something so important to him he even remembers it.
Again. Read the manifesto blog and listen to what he says in the video.
So Colin is lying in his quote. Okay.
I’m sure you and Vayne know better than Colin what they meant.
I’m sure Colin didn’t write the manifesto. He performed it. What he said was very likely what someone wrote. It’s clear from the words at least what isn’t being talked about.
More to the point, I’m sure Colin after five years of not thinking about it knows exactly what he meant five years ago. Hell most people don’t know what they meant a year later never mind five.
Imagine that someone asked you what you meant when you said something five years ago. Like you’d even remember. To a fan who listened to the manifesto this was a major thing and it’s ingrained in their psyche. To Colin it was one day out of many days making a game. What makes you think this is something so important to him he even remembers it.
Good to know that you can read Colin’s mind and know exactly what he thinks, what he feels and what he might or might not have forgotten.
Since you can read Colin’s mind you can probably also see the release date of HoT. Can you tell us? Will it be before or after August?
Again. Read the manifesto blog and listen to what he says in the video.
So Colin is lying in his quote. Okay.
I’m sure you and Vayne know better than Colin what they meant.
I’m sure Colin didn’t write the manifesto. He performed it. What he said was very likely what someone wrote. It’s clear from the words at least what isn’t being talked about.
More to the point, I’m sure Colin after five years of not thinking about it knows exactly what he meant five years ago. Hell most people don’t know what they meant a year later never mind five.
Imagine that someone asked you what you meant when you said something five years ago. Like you’d even remember. To a fan who listened to the manifesto this was a major thing and it’s ingrained in their psyche. To Colin it was one day out of many days making a game. What makes you think this is something so important to him he even remembers it.
Translation: I’m Vayne and I know better than Colin what Colin is talking about, despite Colin coming into this thread and clearing up what everyone was talking about.
We’re talking about what is specifically stated in the manifesto.
So is Colin’s quote
Again. Read the manifesto blog and listen to what he says in the video.
So Colin is lying in his quote. Okay.
I’m sure you and Vayne know better than Colin what they meant.
I’m sure Colin didn’t write the manifesto. He performed it. What he said was very likely what someone wrote. It’s clear from the words at least what isn’t being talked about.
More to the point, I’m sure Colin after five years of not thinking about it knows exactly what he meant five years ago. Hell most people don’t know what they meant a year later never mind five.
Imagine that someone asked you what you meant when you said something five years ago. Like you’d even remember. To a fan who listened to the manifesto this was a major thing and it’s ingrained in their psyche. To Colin it was one day out of many days making a game. What makes you think this is something so important to him he even remembers it.
Good to know that you can read Colin’s mind and know exactly what he thinks, what he feels and what he might or might not have forgotten.
Since you can read Colin’s mind you can probably also see the release date of HoT. Can you tell us? Will it be before or after August?
I don’t need to read someone’s mind to know the liklihood of ANYONE remembering exactly what they meant exactly five years later is unlikely. Unless it’s a hot button issue for them, why would they? It’s not normal to remember exactly what you meant five years ago.
All you need is the most basic knowledge of the human brain to understand this. Saying otherwise, shows a lack of understanding of how memory works.
Hey Colin if you’re around, did you write the Manifesto?
I don’t need to read someone’s mind to know the liklihood of ANYONE remembering exactly what they meant exactly five years later is unlikely.
And yet you presume to know what Colin meant despite not being Colin, and despite Colin coming into this very thread and telling us all what was meant.
So like I said: Apparently you know better than Colin what Colin is talking about.
Again. Read the manifesto blog and listen to what he says in the video.
So Colin is lying in his quote. Okay.
I’m sure you and Vayne know better than Colin what they meant.
I’m sure Colin didn’t write the manifesto. He performed it. What he said was very likely what someone wrote. It’s clear from the words at least what isn’t being talked about.
More to the point, I’m sure Colin after five years of not thinking about it knows exactly what he meant five years ago. Hell most people don’t know what they meant a year later never mind five.
Imagine that someone asked you what you meant when you said something five years ago. Like you’d even remember. To a fan who listened to the manifesto this was a major thing and it’s ingrained in their psyche. To Colin it was one day out of many days making a game. What makes you think this is something so important to him he even remembers it.
Good to know that you can read Colin’s mind and know exactly what he thinks, what he feels and what he might or might not have forgotten.
Since you can read Colin’s mind you can probably also see the release date of HoT. Can you tell us? Will it be before or after August?
I don’t need to read someone’s mind to know the liklihood of ANYONE remembering exactly what they meant exactly five years later is unlikely. Unless it’s a hot button issue for them, why would they? It’s not normal to remember exactly what you meant five years ago.
All you need is the most basic knowledge of the human brain to understand this. Saying otherwise, shows a lack of understanding of how memory works.
It’s also not normal to forget about core design principles that shape the rest of your game. Stuff like this is not something you easily forget, ESPECIALLY not as a director or a designer.
Not to mention that Colin has come back on the issue and cleared up that the no-grind philosophy was about GEAR grind, not combat grind. Golin is the director of GW2 so when it comes to this his word is God’s and we can assume he knows best what is or isn’t meant with the no-grind philosophy. What was written in the manifesto and by who doesn’t matter. Colin said here and now that the no-grind philosophy is about gear grind, so that’s what it is.
Again. Read the manifesto blog and listen to what he says in the video.
So Colin is lying in his quote. Okay.
I’m sure you and Vayne know better than Colin what they meant.
I’m sure Colin didn’t write the manifesto. He performed it. What he said was very likely what someone wrote. It’s clear from the words at least what isn’t being talked about.
More to the point, I’m sure Colin after five years of not thinking about it knows exactly what he meant five years ago. Hell most people don’t know what they meant a year later never mind five.
Imagine that someone asked you what you meant when you said something five years ago. Like you’d even remember. To a fan who listened to the manifesto this was a major thing and it’s ingrained in their psyche. To Colin it was one day out of many days making a game. What makes you think this is something so important to him he even remembers it.
Good to know that you can read Colin’s mind and know exactly what he thinks, what he feels and what he might or might not have forgotten.
Since you can read Colin’s mind you can probably also see the release date of HoT. Can you tell us? Will it be before or after August?
I don’t need to read someone’s mind to know the liklihood of ANYONE remembering exactly what they meant exactly five years later is unlikely. Unless it’s a hot button issue for them, why would they? It’s not normal to remember exactly what you meant five years ago.
All you need is the most basic knowledge of the human brain to understand this. Saying otherwise, shows a lack of understanding of how memory works.
It’s also not normal to forget about core design principles that shape the rest of your game. Stuff like this is not something you easily forget, ESPECIALLY not as a director or a designer.
Not to mention that Colin has come back on the issue and cleared up that the no-grind philosophy was about GEAR grind, not combat grind. Golin is the director of GW2 so when it comes to this his word is God’s and we can assume he knows best what is or isn’t meant with the no-grind philosophy.
So where in the manifesto did you get the idea it spoke about gear. What word in it besides grind lead you to believe that? Just curious.
Again. Read the manifesto blog and listen to what he says in the video.
So Colin is lying in his quote. Okay.
I’m sure you and Vayne know better than Colin what they meant.
I’m sure Colin didn’t write the manifesto. He performed it. What he said was very likely what someone wrote. It’s clear from the words at least what isn’t being talked about.
More to the point, I’m sure Colin after five years of not thinking about it knows exactly what he meant five years ago. Hell most people don’t know what they meant a year later never mind five.
Imagine that someone asked you what you meant when you said something five years ago. Like you’d even remember. To a fan who listened to the manifesto this was a major thing and it’s ingrained in their psyche. To Colin it was one day out of many days making a game. What makes you think this is something so important to him he even remembers it.
Translation: I’m Vayne and I know better than Colin what Colin is talking about, despite Colin coming into this thread and clearing up what everyone was talking about.
We’re talking about what is specifically stated in the manifesto.
So is Colin’s quote
OMG…
Read this: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/guild-wars-2-design-manifesto/
Watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FU1JUwPqzQY
Do they talk about gear? No. It is not mentioned. That is what we are talking about. You’re doing the exact same thing that many people have been doing. You’re not understanding what it is that’s being said even when bolded. I’ll say it again: we’re talking about what is specifically stated in the manifesto (blog/video).
We’re talking about what is specifically stated in the manifesto (blog/video).
We’re talking about what is specifically stated in the manifesto (blog/video).
We’re talking about what is specifically stated in the manifesto (blog/video).
We’re talking about what is specifically stated in the manifesto (blog/video).
We’re talking about what is specifically stated in the manifesto (blog/video).
We’re talking about what is specifically stated in the manifesto (blog/video).
We’re talking about what is specifically stated in the manifesto (blog/video).
We’re talking about what is specifically stated in the manifesto (blog/video).
We’re talking about what is specifically stated in the manifesto (blog/video).
We’re talking about what is specifically stated in the manifesto (blog/video).
We’re talking about what is specifically stated in the manifesto (blog/video).
We’re talking about what is specifically stated in the manifesto (blog/video).
We’re talking about what is specifically stated in the manifesto (blog/video).
Again. Read the manifesto blog and listen to what he says in the video.
So Colin is lying in his quote. Okay.
I’m sure you and Vayne know better than Colin what they meant.
I’m sure Colin didn’t write the manifesto. He performed it. What he said was very likely what someone wrote. It’s clear from the words at least what isn’t being talked about.
More to the point, I’m sure Colin after five years of not thinking about it knows exactly what he meant five years ago. Hell most people don’t know what they meant a year later never mind five.
Imagine that someone asked you what you meant when you said something five years ago. Like you’d even remember. To a fan who listened to the manifesto this was a major thing and it’s ingrained in their psyche. To Colin it was one day out of many days making a game. What makes you think this is something so important to him he even remembers it.
Good to know that you can read Colin’s mind and know exactly what he thinks, what he feels and what he might or might not have forgotten.
Since you can read Colin’s mind you can probably also see the release date of HoT. Can you tell us? Will it be before or after August?
I don’t need to read someone’s mind to know the liklihood of ANYONE remembering exactly what they meant exactly five years later is unlikely. Unless it’s a hot button issue for them, why would they? It’s not normal to remember exactly what you meant five years ago.
All you need is the most basic knowledge of the human brain to understand this. Saying otherwise, shows a lack of understanding of how memory works.
It’s also not normal to forget about core design principles that shape the rest of your game. Stuff like this is not something you easily forget, ESPECIALLY not as a director or a designer.
Not to mention that Colin has come back on the issue and cleared up that the no-grind philosophy was about GEAR grind, not combat grind. Golin is the director of GW2 so when it comes to this his word is God’s and we can assume he knows best what is or isn’t meant with the no-grind philosophy.
So where in the manifesto did you get the idea it spoke about gear. What word in it besides grind lead you to believe that? Just curious.
What in the manifesto did you get the idea that it spoke specifically about combat and about combat only? What word in it besides grind lead you to believe that? Just curious.
And what part of “Word of God” do you not understand? Colin said that the manifesto was about gear grind, so we can all just assume that’s what it is. There is really no point to debating over how to interpret the manifesto, Colin already explained how to interpret the manifesto.
You’re not understanding what it is that’s being said even when bolded. I’ll say it again: we’re talking about what is specifically stated in the manifesto (blog/video).
And I’ll caps lock for you since you don’t seem to be able to read, SO IS COLIN.
“When our company president said we have an anti-grind philosophy way back before Gw2 shipped, and when it has been repeatedly reinforced since then”
Key words: ANTI-GRIND PHILOSPHY, BACK BEFORE GW2 SHIPPED and WHEN IT HAS BEEN REPEATEDLY REINFORCED SINCE THEN
In other words: EVERY TIME THEY TALKED ABOUT AN ANTI-GRIND PHILOSPHY, IT WAS IN REGARDS TO GEAR.
So if you have a kittening problem with that interpretation, take it up with Colin BECAUSE IT’S HIS kittenING QUOTE.
You’re not understanding what it is that’s being said even when bolded. I’ll say it again: we’re talking about what is specifically stated in the manifesto (blog/video).
And I’ll caps lock for you since you don’t seem to be able to read, SO IS COLIN.
“When our company president said we have an anti-grind philosophy way back before Gw2 shipped, and when it has been repeatedly reinforced since then”
Key words: ANTI-GRIND PHILOSPHY, BACK BEFORE GW2 SHIPPED and WHEN IT HAS BEEN REPEATEDLY REINFORCED SINCE THEN
In other words: EVERY TIME THEY TALKED ABOUT AN ANTI-GRIND PHILOSPHY, IT WAS IN REGARDS TO GEAR.
So if you have a kittening problem with that interpretation, take it up with Colin BECAUSE IT’S HIS kittenING QUOTE.
How about you read the manifesto blog and watch the video. Where do they talk about grind in regards to gear? That’s what we’re talking about. Is it that difficult to understand? I have absolutely no other idea on how to rephrase it so you’ll understand.
Guys does it really matter though? Grind is grind.
Grind isn’t an end, grind is a means to an end. it doesn’t matter what that end is. Whether you try to level up, get new gear or get a new rare skin, if you have to do the same repetitive stuff over and over and over again to get what you want (level-up, gear, skin) it is per definition a grind.
Again. Read the manifesto blog and listen to what he says in the video.
So Colin is lying in his quote. Okay.
I’m sure you and Vayne know better than Colin what they meant.
I’m sure Colin didn’t write the manifesto. He performed it. What he said was very likely what someone wrote. It’s clear from the words at least what isn’t being talked about.
More to the point, I’m sure Colin after five years of not thinking about it knows exactly what he meant five years ago. Hell most people don’t know what they meant a year later never mind five.
Imagine that someone asked you what you meant when you said something five years ago. Like you’d even remember. To a fan who listened to the manifesto this was a major thing and it’s ingrained in their psyche. To Colin it was one day out of many days making a game. What makes you think this is something so important to him he even remembers it.
i think colins clarafication of what they mean by no grind philosophy in a post within the last month, probably holds more water than interpretation and reading between the lines of the manifesto.
Heres the real point, i think the devs feel like they have created something that doesnt feel grindy, but i think for players in the streets, 80+ progression feels pretty grindy.