Guild Wars 2

Thasanes.6349:

Lol. What are guys grinding for?

Those who are grinding are mainly grinding gold. Many other left because the way to obtain many of the items was just by grinding (gold).

Bernie.8674:

Test.8734:

The statement “We don’t want people to grind” is factually a lie – if that were true, ArenaNet would not allow people to grind, much less make grind far more rewarding than not grinding.

Agreed. They used to have diminishing rewards built into the game. If you spent too long in an area grinding the same content repeatedly the drops would degrade in quantity and quality. They removed that constraint, effectively incentivizing grind over gameplay.

Are you sure about that? Pretty sure DR is still in the game. However, it is not known what the threshold for it to kick in is, as far as drops are concerned. Also John Smith did say recently that there have been very few people to have hit DR while farming/grinding. So it’s almost a non issues, but still in the game.

John Smith.4610:

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

I’ve not read this whole thread so forgive me if this is answered elsewhere. I want to ask a few questions.

1. Is the loot system currently set up so people who play less are more likely to get an awesome RNG drop? There have been numerous posts like, “my friend logged on after 5 months and got X, Y, Z drop while I’ve been playing every day and got nothing!” I want to know if the way it works currently is that those who play lots get decreasing loot in proportion to playtime. Why would ANET do this? To keep people chasing the carrot.

John answered that question in a different thread, there arent any account modifiers.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/I-have-a-question-about-the-economy/page/15#post4487484

what he is speaking of wouldnt be an account modifier, and it probably does exist, mildy. There is Diminishing returns on drops and it decays pretty slowly. You will in fact see more drops in your first few hours after not having played for awhile.

They will never tell us exactly what is happening, but your friend who plays rarely will basically have no DR for almost all of their playtime.

Still catching up, but I wanted to stop to be clear. No to this. This doesn’t happen, it’s a cognitive bias. There’s virtually no DR active on any given day.

Vayne.8563:

More to the point, I’m sure Colin after five years of not thinking about it knows exactly what he meant five years ago. Hell most people don’t know what they meant a year later never mind five.

Imagine that someone asked you what you meant when you said something five years ago. Like you’d even remember. To a fan who listened to the manifesto this was a major thing and it’s ingrained in their psyche. To Colin it was one day out of many days making a game. What makes you think this is something so important to him he even remembers it.

It’s important to him because it’s his job. He’s the lead game designer. Regardless of what he thought five years ago, this is what he said last month:

ColinJohanson.2394:

When our company president said we have an anti-grind philosophy way back before Gw2 shipped, and when it has been repeatedly reinforced since then, our statement is simply: “We don’t think you should need to grind to get the best gear and stats in Guild Wars 2”.

So what exactly does that mean:

- The best gear/stats: This means to have statistically the best abilities in the game, you shouldn’t need to, by our definition of the word, grind. This goes for leveling and getting top gear (by our definition that’s ascended gear, legendary being an optional extra thing you can do, but don’t need to do.)

Rin.1046:

Aidenwolf.5964:

The grind is in making those ascended mats into armor. Low level mats are either bought at insane prices of grinding the kitten out low maps praying for bags to drop since gear drops won’t be map level but character level.

Here is how I think Anet looks at this:

You need mats? Go do what you want and earn the gold to buy them. Or make a new character (if you want to) and level them, gaining the mats as you go.

This may not be your ideal solution, but the fact is you CAN do want you want (PvP, WvW, dungeons, fractals, world bosses, dynamic events) and this WILL earn you gold with which to buy whatever mats you need (with the exception of ascended, which can be aquired from drops in many different areas of the game and doing many different activities). You are not restricted to low level zones and you do not NEED to grind those zones and pray for the bags. This is a limit you have imposed on yourself, not one Anet has imposed on you.

Ascended mat acquisition, in my opinion, needs to be improved. It is getting better though, so I am not worried about this too much.

And now how it works in reality. People set them-self a goal like getting one of those items. They look what to do to get that item.. at that moment they are not interested in WvW, PvP, dungeons whatever but at there goal. To achieve this goal there is no specific content but there is gold, so gold becomes there sub-goal so the way to get to their goal would be to grind gold.

Still fine for the first item, but then the next item has the same subgoal (gold) and the 3th, and the 4th and the 5h and the 6th and…..

And that results in many people finding the game so grindy.

Where if the item / goal is behind specific content different content is the subgoal making the whole experience way more fun.

So maybe their attempt to make the game less grindy was one of the reasons the game became so grindy, and the cash-shop items (you can only get ingame by grinding gold) is the other big reason.

munkiman.3068:

Zenith.7301:

munkiman.3068:

All the talk of grind here really stems from content. Let’s see how HoT turns out and revisit the grind concept. I sure they learned a few lessons since launch, at the very least.

Luminiscent armor says otherwise. It’s basically farmville.

I’m ok with skins being grindy. Although i’m currently not ok with killing Ogres to unlock the achievement (Ogre tooth drop). I’ve slaughtered at least 1000 at this point, still nada. That’s the stuff that irks me.

You are fine with grinding for cosmetics in this game that is all about cosmetics. But other people aren’t.

In both cases there seems to be agreement that it is a grind what is the subject here and the problem for those who don’t like the grind.

Ayrilana.1396:

Test.8734:

Vayne.8563:

Saying there’s a tier above exotics and saying you have to grind for it are completely different things. You don’t know. You’re assuming. You’re using the assumption to malign. It’s obvious to most people what you’re doing.

One could easily counter argument that you’re trying to defend ArenaNet while ignoring the evidence in front of you, and that it’s obvious to most people what you’re doing.

As an example, there is zero assumptions in saying that, by the time of release, ArenaNet knew very well that there was a huge grind in the game in order to get legendaries, at the same time they had at the front of their website the video in which they claimed they don’t want players to grind.

There is no way around it. It’s simply a fact – the Manifesto was something ArenaNet knew wasn’t true at the very same time they were using it as a marketing tool.

ColinJohanson.2394:

- Grind: To us, grind means being required to do the same boring activity over and over again. In particular, the biggest reference we’re talking about here in traditional MMO’s is having to kill the same creatures over and over again to farm for levels or gear. In Gw2, you can gain exp and levels from a massive variety of game play, game modes, and content types. Same goes for the ability to acquire the gear to build up your characters. Similarly, ascended mats can be acquired from a wide variety of content types and game modes to allow you choice and options so you don’t need to grind to complete those goals. Our new mastery system continues to this promise as well, which we’ll go into more detail on soon.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy/page/4#post4733273

So if you love MMORPGs, you should check out Guild Wars 2. But if you hate traditional MMORPGs, then you should really check out Guild Wars 2. Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun; and of course, it doesn’t have a monthly fee.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/guild-wars-2-design-manifesto/

Also the video. Pay attention to exactly what he says starting around the the 1:15 mark. Listen to everything that he says.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FU1JUwPqzQY

Might I point out that even the most basic of activities, say collections for example, has turned into a grind as well because of the final pieces being locked behind RNG. It’s no different to me than say, open world LS supposedly being said that you don’t need to do what others have to do in other aspects of PVE to enjoy those stories yet over and over again we kept seeing the final stories with the most important lore being locked behind a group content situation yet LS was touted as something that everyone could enjoy, everyone can’t unless you have a team to go into those 5 mans.

So it’s a game of semantics here really, and I for one say that not only did they not deliver on what they said they did on multiple fronts but they have the chance now with the expansion to make up for all of the incessant RNG in this title and the long drawn out time gating that’s been going on.

pdavis.8031:

Bernie.8674:

Test.8734:

The statement “We don’t want people to grind” is factually a lie – if that were true, ArenaNet would not allow people to grind, much less make grind far more rewarding than not grinding.

Agreed. They used to have diminishing rewards built into the game. If you spent too long in an area grinding the same content repeatedly the drops would degrade in quantity and quality. They removed that constraint, effectively incentivizing grind over gameplay.

Are you sure about that? Pretty sure DR is still in the game. However, it is not known what the threshold for it to kick in is, as far as drops are concerned. Also John Smith did say recently that there have been very few people to have hit DR while farming/grinding. So it’s almost a non issues, but still in the game.

John Smith.4610:

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

I’ve not read this whole thread so forgive me if this is answered elsewhere. I want to ask a few questions.

1. Is the loot system currently set up so people who play less are more likely to get an awesome RNG drop? There have been numerous posts like, “my friend logged on after 5 months and got X, Y, Z drop while I’ve been playing every day and got nothing!” I want to know if the way it works currently is that those who play lots get decreasing loot in proportion to playtime. Why would ANET do this? To keep people chasing the carrot.

John answered that question in a different thread, there arent any account modifiers.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/I-have-a-question-about-the-economy/page/15#post4487484

what he is speaking of wouldnt be an account modifier, and it probably does exist, mildy. There is Diminishing returns on drops and it decays pretty slowly. You will in fact see more drops in your first few hours after not having played for awhile.

They will never tell us exactly what is happening, but your friend who plays rarely will basically have no DR for almost all of their playtime.

Still catching up, but I wanted to stop to be clear. No to this. This doesn’t happen, it’s a cognitive bias. There’s virtually no DR active on any given day.

I’m actually not sure. I deleted that post because my perception was based on anecdotal statements from guild mates. However, John Smith’s statement seems to back up the claim to some extent. There may be some DR in the game, but it’s been toned down to the point where almost no one ever hits it. I have guild mates who farm Silverwastes for hours without ever hitting DR. They used to have to switch out of whatever zone they were farming every hour or so.

pdavis.8031:

Ok. I’ve been watching this thread for awhile. Now I feel it’s time to weigh in.

So the whole argument, that keeps going in circles is:
Anet said “no grind”. But ascended is grind. Thus Anet lied.
But ascended is optional and is there for a goal for people to work toward.
But ascended is BiS gear. Period. And if you want BiS you need to grind to get it.
[insert break down if ascended vs. exotic stats] But it’s not that much of a difference, thus still optional.
[instert break down of ascended vs exotic] but that much makes it almost a requirement in certain game modes, where it basically comes down to a numbers game.
But colin clarified it and said, that most of the grind in game is optional, and that acceptable.
But ascended isn’t optional if you want BiS. Thus it’s a grind, and Anet lied.
Ad Nauseum.

Basically it comes down to this.
So what if ascended, skins, legendaries, BiS, fractals, etc. is a grind? So Anet changed their minds and made ascended, which does require a grind. And? Does this mean the game is kittened now? Is there such a mass exodus that Anet is looking at closing their doors? Does it mean that BiS (i.e. ascended) takes more time? So what if it does?Does it stop you from being able to complete or participate in any game mode or game game activity?
So the manifesto doesn’t match up exactly to what the game is now. But what does it matter? Do you still login and play? If yes, then I’d say what the manifesto says really has no bearing on whether or not anyone plays or enjoys the game. If no, then why are you complaining about it? You don’t play so it doesn’t effect you.

Anet isn’t going to change the manifesto, the game, or ascended equipment just because people feel that it’s a grind. If you don’t like it, don’t do it. Period. If you do like it. Great! More power to you. But in the end, this discussion really doesn’t solve anything and only serves to inflame passions, and circular arguments which basically boil down to “yes it is!” “No it isn’t” “Yes it is!” “No it isn’t!”

/end thread.

“So what” Because it’s bad for the game, it makes the game less fun and yes people are did leave because of it. Also income has been going down ever since launch so it need to go up for the game to also financially stay successful.

With HoT many people will return, including those who left because the game was boring (bercause of the grind). If they leave again they won’t come back again resulting in less money, and less support and so also a game that is going even more down quality wise.

So that is ‘what’.

/open thread.

ColinJohanson.2394:

- Grind: To us, grind means being required to do the same boring activity over and over again. In particular, the biggest reference we’re talking about here in traditional MMO’s is having to kill the same creatures over and over again to farm for levels or gear. In Gw2, you can gain exp and levels from a massive variety of game play, game modes, and content types. Same goes for the ability to acquire the gear to build up your characters. Similarly, ascended mats can be acquired from a wide variety of content types and game modes to allow you choice and options so you don’t need to grind to complete those goals.

By this definition, Ascended acquisition is not a grind. When you are operating on this very narrow definition of grind, the ANet statements about grind are true. Posters who are operating on a different definition of grind (which is their prerogative) are barking up the wrong tree.

So, can we get over the whole kittening contest about who said what and whether someone lied or not (because by their definition of grind, they didn’t), and get back to discussing the real issue, which is dissatisfaction with perceived grind? Because, honestly, “proving” ANet wrong (you can’t on this subject) and “proving” each other wrong is not conducive to a productive discussion.

Devata.6589:

munkiman.3068:

Zenith.7301:

munkiman.3068:

All the talk of grind here really stems from content. Let’s see how HoT turns out and revisit the grind concept. I sure they learned a few lessons since launch, at the very least.

Luminiscent armor says otherwise. It’s basically farmville.

I’m ok with skins being grindy. Although i’m currently not ok with killing Ogres to unlock the achievement (Ogre tooth drop). I’ve slaughtered at least 1000 at this point, still nada. That’s the stuff that irks me.

You are fine with grinding for cosmetics in this game that is all about cosmetics. But other people aren’t.

In both cases there seems to be agreement that it is a grind what is the subject here and the problem for those who don’t like the grind.

I can tell you i have over the fashion title count of 1000, none of which i did anything excessive to reach. Granted crafting isn’t fun, but it’s hardly all that time consuming and most of those crafted skins require a fairly low mat count/cost. As a matter of fact, i did far more “grinding” in the original game for cosmetics.

Look, i’m on your page about ascended, but not in the same way you seem to be. My beef is building a set then needing a new one somewhere down the road, or even today, if i want to diversify my builds. That’s really it, it’s just too much, just to stat change. Plus, at this point i wouldn’t put it past Arena not to add some sort of upgrade for the ascended stuff that somehow becomes required at some point. Which basically means it’s no longer optional, but i think we would all cross that bridge when/if it comes to it. There is also the fact that it’s the BiS, players are going to want that, but once they review the requirements (especially for such a small gain) you’re going to shy those players away, defeating the purpose of adding it to begin with. I totally get it.

IMO, ascended wasn’t needed. I get why they did it, but all-in-all, the entire issue comes down to adding it in the first place, which there are threads 100’s of pages long saying the exact same thing. Colin even admits, it was unintended at launch to add that tier, an whoops moment, when they realized exotic was to easy.

Why do I feel that this is relevant here.

IndigoSundown.5419:

ColinJohanson.2394:

- Grind: To us, grind means being required to do the same boring activity over and over again. In particular, the biggest reference we’re talking about here in traditional MMO’s is having to kill the same creatures over and over again to farm for levels or gear. In Gw2, you can gain exp and levels from a massive variety of game play, game modes, and content types. Same goes for the ability to acquire the gear to build up your characters. Similarly, ascended mats can be acquired from a wide variety of content types and game modes to allow you choice and options so you don’t need to grind to complete those goals.

By this definition, Ascended acquisition is not a grind. When you are operating on this very narrow definition of grind, the ANet statements about grind are true. Posters who are operating on a different definition of grind (which is their prerogative) are barking up the wrong tree.

So, can we get over the whole kittening contest about who said what and whether someone lied or not (because by their definition of grind, they didn’t), and get back to discussing the real issue, which is dissatisfaction with perceived grind? Because, honestly, “proving” ANet wrong (you can’t on this subject) and “proving” each other wrong is not conducive to a productive discussion.

And this is where the issue lies, the perception of grind is highly subjective.

I don’t feel this game is grindy because I play the game how I want and gather the materials/gold that I need as I play. But I’m a casual player and have set my expectations and goals accordingly.

Others feel differently, and that’s fine, but neither “side” can reasonably claim to speak for the entire player base (or even a significant portion of it). And no amount of posts claiming this game is grindy/non-grindy will alter how an individual perceives the grind (or lack of it) in this game.

Devata.6589:

pdavis.8031:

Ok. I’ve been watching this thread for awhile. Now I feel it’s time to weigh in.

So the whole argument, that keeps going in circles is:
Anet said “no grind”. But ascended is grind. Thus Anet lied.
But ascended is optional and is there for a goal for people to work toward.
But ascended is BiS gear. Period. And if you want BiS you need to grind to get it.
[insert break down if ascended vs. exotic stats] But it’s not that much of a difference, thus still optional.
[instert break down of ascended vs exotic] but that much makes it almost a requirement in certain game modes, where it basically comes down to a numbers game.
But colin clarified it and said, that most of the grind in game is optional, and that acceptable.
But ascended isn’t optional if you want BiS. Thus it’s a grind, and Anet lied.
Ad Nauseum.

Basically it comes down to this.
So what if ascended, skins, legendaries, BiS, fractals, etc. is a grind? So Anet changed their minds and made ascended, which does require a grind. And? Does this mean the game is kittened now? Is there such a mass exodus that Anet is looking at closing their doors? Does it mean that BiS (i.e. ascended) takes more time? So what if it does?Does it stop you from being able to complete or participate in any game mode or game game activity?
So the manifesto doesn’t match up exactly to what the game is now. But what does it matter? Do you still login and play? If yes, then I’d say what the manifesto says really has no bearing on whether or not anyone plays or enjoys the game. If no, then why are you complaining about it? You don’t play so it doesn’t effect you.

Anet isn’t going to change the manifesto, the game, or ascended equipment just because people feel that it’s a grind. If you don’t like it, don’t do it. Period. If you do like it. Great! More power to you. But in the end, this discussion really doesn’t solve anything and only serves to inflame passions, and circular arguments which basically boil down to “yes it is!” “No it isn’t” “Yes it is!” “No it isn’t!”

/end thread.

“So what” Because it’s bad for the game, it makes the game less fun and yes people are did leave because of it. Also income has been going down ever since launch so it need to go up for the game to also financially stay successful.

With HoT many people will return, including those who left because the game was boring (bercause of the grind). If they leave again they won’t come back again resulting in less money, and less support and so also a game that is going even more down quality wise.

So that is ‘what’.

/open thread.

So some people leave, but others come in. It is a revolving door. But I have no reason to believe that there has been any reduction of numbers that would be cause for alarm. There has been 0 evidence on way or another on the matter of population and player retention. However, I see more new people posting on the forums everyday, so that at least tells us people are coming in, but doesn’t give us any indication of how many are leaving.

And “being bad for the game” is very subjective at the very best. Some people like having a bit of a grind. Others not so much, and still others don’t care one way or another. Those who like grind will spend hours doing what they need to, which brings in more supply to the economy, which helps the game as a whole. Those who don’t like to grind for the items have the option to buy them off the TP, which helps remove gold from the game due to the TP fees, and causes the flow of gold, which also helps the game economy as a whole. As for those who don’t care, they will eventually get what they want just by playing the game.Even these types of players are good for the game, because it is this type that tends to spend more money in gems then the grinders, and the TPers, which also helps fund Anet, which helps the game.

So again, whether or not Anet said that there is no grind, or what exactly they meant by it, doesn’t really matter.

Devata.6589:

Rin.1046:

Aidenwolf.5964:

The grind is in making those ascended mats into armor. Low level mats are either bought at insane prices of grinding the kitten out low maps praying for bags to drop since gear drops won’t be map level but character level.

Here is how I think Anet looks at this:

You need mats? Go do what you want and earn the gold to buy them. Or make a new character (if you want to) and level them, gaining the mats as you go.

This may not be your ideal solution, but the fact is you CAN do want you want (PvP, WvW, dungeons, fractals, world bosses, dynamic events) and this WILL earn you gold with which to buy whatever mats you need (with the exception of ascended, which can be aquired from drops in many different areas of the game and doing many different activities). You are not restricted to low level zones and you do not NEED to grind those zones and pray for the bags. This is a limit you have imposed on yourself, not one Anet has imposed on you.

Ascended mat acquisition, in my opinion, needs to be improved. It is getting better though, so I am not worried about this too much.

And now how it works in reality. People set them-self a goal like getting one of those items. They look what to do to get that item.. at that moment they are not interested in WvW, PvP, dungeons whatever but at there goal. To achieve this goal there is no specific content but there is gold, so gold becomes there sub-goal so the way to get to their goal would be to grind gold.

Still fine for the first item, but then the next item has the same subgoal (gold) and the 3th, and the 4th and the 5h and the 6th and…..

And that results in many people finding the game so grindy.

Where if the item / goal is behind specific content different content is the subgoal making the whole experience way more fun.

So maybe their attempt to make the game less grindy was one of the reasons the game became so grindy, and the cash-shop items (you can only get ingame by grinding gold) is the other big reason.

Well reasoned. I definitely believe the game was rebuilt around the TP as it shares a UI with the gem store.

To those arguing that setting gold as the goal is grindy. Look at it this way. By opening things up to be bought by gold they are giving you the freedom to do any activity you like. You can earn gold in PvP, WvW, dungeons, fractals, events, or just killing mobs. You can do whatever activity you fancy and gradually earn enough gold to get the items you want. You’re not locked into one activity that you have to repeat many times to get things. There are still things like that in the game, and I hope they improve upon those, but they are starting to shift in the right direction.

If you set yourself the goal of gaining gold only by doing the same thing over and over again (Anet’s definition of grind), then you only have yourself to blame. Anet has broadened your options by putting more items on the TP.

It might not be as aethetically exciting as defeating a world boss or finishing an epic dungeon, but it does allow you to pick and chose what you want to do.

When the game was first released I think Anet made a mistake with the separate dungeon tokens, as it meant players had to grind a particular dungeon to get a particular armour set. This went against their own philosophy of grind. Now, they have aded pvp ranks so you can earn it another way. It is still not perfect, and I think a more generic dungeon token gained from all dungeons to buy any dungeon set, would have been a better way to implement it, but they are at least starting to recognize the problem and provide more methods of acquisition.

The comment ‘grinding gold’ makes no sense to me, because you can acquire it in many many different ways. If you could only get gold by doing dungeons, I would understand the comment, but that is simply not the case.

tigirius.9014:

Ayrilana.1396:

Test.8734:

Vayne.8563:

Saying there’s a tier above exotics and saying you have to grind for it are completely different things. You don’t know. You’re assuming. You’re using the assumption to malign. It’s obvious to most people what you’re doing.

One could easily counter argument that you’re trying to defend ArenaNet while ignoring the evidence in front of you, and that it’s obvious to most people what you’re doing.

As an example, there is zero assumptions in saying that, by the time of release, ArenaNet knew very well that there was a huge grind in the game in order to get legendaries, at the same time they had at the front of their website the video in which they claimed they don’t want players to grind.

There is no way around it. It’s simply a fact – the Manifesto was something ArenaNet knew wasn’t true at the very same time they were using it as a marketing tool.

ColinJohanson.2394:

- Grind: To us, grind means being required to do the same boring activity over and over again. In particular, the biggest reference we’re talking about here in traditional MMO’s is having to kill the same creatures over and over again to farm for levels or gear. In Gw2, you can gain exp and levels from a massive variety of game play, game modes, and content types. Same goes for the ability to acquire the gear to build up your characters. Similarly, ascended mats can be acquired from a wide variety of content types and game modes to allow you choice and options so you don’t need to grind to complete those goals. Our new mastery system continues to this promise as well, which we’ll go into more detail on soon.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy/page/4#post4733273

So if you love MMORPGs, you should check out Guild Wars 2. But if you hate traditional MMORPGs, then you should really check out Guild Wars 2. Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun; and of course, it doesn’t have a monthly fee.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/guild-wars-2-design-manifesto/

Also the video. Pay attention to exactly what he says starting around the the 1:15 mark. Listen to everything that he says.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FU1JUwPqzQY

Might I point out that even the most basic of activities, say collections for example, has turned into a grind as well because of the final pieces being locked behind RNG. It’s no different to me than say, open world LS supposedly being said that you don’t need to do what others have to do in other aspects of PVE to enjoy those stories yet over and over again we kept seeing the final stories with the most important lore being locked behind a group content situation yet LS was touted as something that everyone could enjoy, everyone can’t unless you have a team to go into those 5 mans.

So it’s a game of semantics here really, and I for one say that not only did they not deliver on what they said they did on multiple fronts but they have the chance now with the expansion to make up for all of the incessant RNG in this title and the long drawn out time gating that’s been going on.

Take another look at what they were referring to as grind within the blog/video explicitly and then what they stated in the post a month ago. You need to look at the entire context and what they’re saying rather than a single line of them saying “no grind”.

As Phys and Indigo have brought up, this thread would be far more useful if the discussion focused on the grind within the game in general rather than what the manifesto said or didn’t say.

pdavis.8031:

Devata.6589:

pdavis.8031:

~

“So what” Because it’s bad for the game, it makes the game less fun and yes people are did leave because of it. Also income has been going down ever since launch so it need to go up for the game to also financially stay successful.

With HoT many people will return, including those who left because the game was boring (bercause of the grind). If they leave again they won’t come back again resulting in less money, and less support and so also a game that is going even more down quality wise.

So that is ‘what’.

/open thread.

Those who like grind will spend hours doing what they need to, which brings in more supply to the economy, which helps the game as a whole. Those who don’t like to grind for the items have the option to buy them off the TP, which helps remove gold from the game due to the TP fees, and causes the flow of gold, which also helps the game economy as a whole. As for those who don’t care, they will eventually get what they want just by playing the game.Even these types of players are good for the game, because it is this type that tends to spend more money in gems then the grinders, and the TPers, which also helps fund Anet, which helps the game.

There are a few mistakes here:

“Those who don’t like to grind for the items” You mean people farming directly for items?. but that is one of the things that is pretty much impossible in this game.

There are grinds where you know there are ‘good’ drops and so you can make a lot of gold with it, but directly farming for an item you want is nearly or completely impossible in this game (for example there is not any direct in-game way to get any of the cash-shop items other then getting gold). That is the whole point, going directly for an item is nearly impossible, that is what turns everything into a gold (currency) grind.

People just get stuff they don’t want, then sell it for gold to then buy what they want. Oow and btw, if you would implement it in a way where you could go (more) directly for an item, the option to grind would still be there for all the items that are not account-bound as they would still end up on the TP, but then the grind would be optional as you could also work directly towards the item.

“Those who don’t like to grind for the items have the option to buy them off the TP” You mean they can grind gold to buy it.. Exactly what is happening, everybody grinds to sell items they do not want to buy what they do want. (what they do not want another person wants and the other way around).

So your ‘positive’ in reality simply means grind or grind.

“which helps remove gold from the game due to the TP fees, and causes the flow of gold,” But also more need to grind gold. And if the game would be better at rewarding direct items (people want) there would also be less need to reward gold (as gold would be less important) and so less need to remove it.

“As for those who don’t care, they will eventually get what they want just by playing the game.” Not if what they want are multiple items and going up as new items are added. The more other people grind, the more prices will go up the more those who do not grind are getting behind. They will be able to get a few items yes but they will not be able to really collect or always go for some cool (new) items they see (other then grinding).

“even these types of players are good for the game, because it is this type that tends to spend more money in gems then the grinders” This is likely the whole point. Give people the choice, a boring grind or buy money (reminds me of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CbWr0zO7Ac ). What could be reasonable or at least understandable in a F2P game (that is also why they tend to be pretty bad) but not in a B2P game. If they want money to work on the game simply release more game (expansions).

Devata.6589:

“Those who don’t like to grind for the items” You mean people farming directly for items?. but that is one of the things that is pretty much impossible in this game.

There are grinds where you know there are ‘good’ drops and so you can make a lot of gold with it, but directly farming for an item you want is nearly or completely impossible in this game (for example there is not any direct in-game way to get any of the cash-shop items other then getting gold). That is the whole point, going directly for an item is nearly impossible, that is what turns everything into a gold (currency) grind.

Not true at all. Using ascended as an example. I can effectively farm for every single material needed to craft ascended, without ever having to spend a copper in the TP.
I’ve done it with my first and second sets of ascended armor, and for most of my legendary.

As far as gem store items, those don’t count. Those are cosmetic, completely optional, and don’t fall into the catagory of nessecary equipment, or BiS gear.

Devata.6589:

People just get stuff they don’t want, then sell it for gold to then buy what they want. Oow and btw, if you would implement it in a way where you could go (more) directly for an item, the option to grind would still be there for all the items that are not account-bound as they would still end up on the TP, but then the grind would be optional as you could also work directly towards the item.

I am not sure I understand. Everything on the TP is available as a drop and can be aquired in game from any game mode. However, if you are saying, making ways to get a specific item from doing specific content, then yeah I am not opposed to such an idea.

Devata.6589:

“Those who don’t like to grind for the items have the option to buy them off the TP” You mean they can grind gold to buy it.. Exactly what is happening, everybody grinds to sell items they do not want to buy what they do want. (what they do not want another person wants and the other way around).

Yes you can use gold to buy what you want, but that doesn’t mean you have to grind to get gold. Every game mode provides gold. Some faster than others of course. But the only way you are not getting any money of any sort while playing the game is standing around LA playing your wintersday bells or something.

So your ‘positive’ in reality simply means grind or grind.

“which helps remove gold from the game due to the TP fees, and causes the flow of gold,” But also more need to grind gold. And if the game would be better at rewarding direct items (people want) there would also be less need to reward gold (as gold would be less important) and so less need to remove it.

Devata.6589:

“As for those who don’t care, they will eventually get what they want just by playing the game.” Not if what they want are multiple items and going up as new items are added. The more other people grind, the more prices will go up the more those who do not grind are getting behind. They will be able to get a few items yes but they will not be able to really collect or always go for some cool (new) items they see (other then grinding).

As more people buy things off the TP, the higher the prices rise. So farming gold and just buying it solely off the TP actually causes prices to go up, which in turn causes the need to farm more gold to keep up. If more people were farming the items, than farming gold, and it is entirely possible to do so, and selling more, prices would actually drop.

Devata.6589:

“even these types of players are good for the game, because it is this type that tends to spend more money in gems then the grinders” This is likely the whole point. Give people the choice, a boring grind or buy money (reminds me of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CbWr0zO7Ac ). What could be reasonable or at least understandable in a F2P game (that is also why they tend to be pretty bad) but not in a B2P game. If they want money to work on the game simply release more game (expansions).

Again. It is not a required grind. The key word is “required.” The problem is that people feel that they need X “right now” and because of that, tend to grind for gold to be able to buy it off the TP faster. And most of the time the item they are going after isn’t much more than a skin change. So people feel that everything is a grind because they feel they need it ASAP. But what if I were to tell you , you didn’t “need” X item to be able to play and enjoy the game?
The gem conversion was introduced so players can get what they want by spending money. They could bypass the percieve required grind, and just straight out buy it. Or if there was something in the gem store they wanted they could use in-game gold to get it. Provided yet another way to be able to get anything and everything inside the game without having to grind. (Of course with the exception of ascended gear, as some of what is required is account bound.)

So in the end. You don’t need to grind gold, or mats, or anything else if you don’t want to.

Rin.1046:

To those arguing that setting gold as the goal is grindy. Look at it this way. By opening things up to be bought by gold they are giving you the freedom to do any activity you like. You can earn gold in PvP, WvW, dungeons, fractals, events, or just killing mobs. You can do whatever activity you fancy and gradually earn enough gold to get the items you want. You’re not locked into one activity that you have to repeat many times to get things. There are still things like that in the game, and I hope they improve upon those, but they are starting to shift in the right direction.

If you set yourself the goal of gaining gold only by doing the same thing over and over again (Anet’s definition of grind), then you only have yourself to blame. Anet has broadened your options by putting more items on the TP.

It might not be as aethetically exciting as defeating a world boss or finishing an epic dungeon, but it does allow you to pick and chose what you want to do.

When the game was first released I think Anet made a mistake with the separate dungeon tokens, as it meant players had to grind a particular dungeon to get a particular armour set. This went against their own philosophy of grind. Now, they have aded pvp ranks so you can earn it another way. It is still not perfect, and I think a more generic dungeon token gained from all dungeons to buy any dungeon set, would have been a better way to implement it, but they are at least starting to recognize the problem and provide more methods of acquisition.

The comment ‘grinding gold’ makes no sense to me, because you can acquire it in many many different ways. If you could only get gold by doing dungeons, I would understand the comment, but that is simply not the case.

“You can earn gold in PvP, WvW, dungeons, fractals, events, or just killing mobs.” One of the things I like in MMORPG is hunting down items.

(Btw the only other things I like in GW2 that does make me some money are the guild-missions. I do like WvW but mainly the defending part and that only cost money, I also like JP’s but they don’t make me any money) Not that I would want to earn the money that way and buy the items because as I said, I like to hunt down the items. That is my preferred game-play.

Aidenwolf.5964:

Devata.6589:

Rin.1046:

Aidenwolf.5964:

The grind is in making those ascended mats into armor. Low level mats are either bought at insane prices of grinding the kitten out low maps praying for bags to drop since gear drops won’t be map level but character level.

Here is how I think Anet looks at this:

You need mats? Go do what you want and earn the gold to buy them. Or make a new character (if you want to) and level them, gaining the mats as you go.

This may not be your ideal solution, but the fact is you CAN do want you want (PvP, WvW, dungeons, fractals, world bosses, dynamic events) and this WILL earn you gold with which to buy whatever mats you need (with the exception of ascended, which can be aquired from drops in many different areas of the game and doing many different activities). You are not restricted to low level zones and you do not NEED to grind those zones and pray for the bags. This is a limit you have imposed on yourself, not one Anet has imposed on you.

Ascended mat acquisition, in my opinion, needs to be improved. It is getting better though, so I am not worried about this too much.

And now how it works in reality. People set them-self a goal like getting one of those items. They look what to do to get that item.. at that moment they are not interested in WvW, PvP, dungeons whatever but at there goal. To achieve this goal there is no specific content but there is gold, so gold becomes there sub-goal so the way to get to their goal would be to grind gold.

Still fine for the first item, but then the next item has the same subgoal (gold) and the 3th, and the 4th and the 5h and the 6th and…..

And that results in many people finding the game so grindy.

Where if the item / goal is behind specific content different content is the subgoal making the whole experience way more fun.

So maybe their attempt to make the game less grindy was one of the reasons the game became so grindy, and the cash-shop items (you can only get ingame by grinding gold) is the other big reason.

Well reasoned. I definitely believe the game was rebuilt around the TP as it shares a UI with the gem store.

In my opinion it’s a shame they insist on their precious ‘economy’. Diablo 3 had the same problem until Blizzard wisened up and removed the AH completely, which in return made it possible to significatnly improve the rate at which highly sought after legendaries and other rare items dropped.
Now that game is more fun and rewarding than it could’ve ever been before the loot patch.
The things the TP in GW has brought us are:
- a lot of junk and vendor items
- reliance on gold for everything, making grinding the most optimal way to obtain ‘prestigious’ (I guess they were at least meant to be) skins.
- droprates and a rewardsystem that make it possible for account with over 3k hours to never have seen a precursor if not bought from the TP.
- very long stretches of gameplay between ‘meaningful’ drops i.e. high value items/skins.
- an overall unrewarding and boring experience that makes obtaining skins seem like a dayjob or a mortage which you chip away at bit by bit.

I guess those are all very subjective but it’s how I view the TP. Blizz proved they value fun more anything. Why can’t ANet?

pdavis.8031:

Again. It is not a required grind. The key word is “required.” The problem is that people feel that they need X “right now” and because of that, tend to grind for gold to be able to buy it off the TP faster. And most of the time the item they are going after isn’t much more than a skin change. So people feel that everything is a grind because they feel they need it ASAP. But what if I were to tell you , you didn’t “need” X item to be able to play and enjoy the game?
The gem conversion was introduced so players can get what they want by spending money. They could bypass the percieve required grind, and just straight out buy it. Or if there was something in the gem store they wanted they could use in-game gold to get it. Provided yet another way to be able to get anything and everything inside the game without having to grind. (Of course with the exception of ascended gear, as some of what is required is account bound.)

So in the end. You don’t need to grind gold, or mats, or anything else if you don’t want to.

You do If you want to make ascended gear. This is a fact and arguing against facts doesn’t change them.

pdavis.8031:

Devata.6589:

“Those who don’t like to grind for the items” You mean people farming directly for items?. but that is one of the things that is pretty much impossible in this game.

There are grinds where you know there are ‘good’ drops and so you can make a lot of gold with it, but directly farming for an item you want is nearly or completely impossible in this game (for example there is not any direct in-game way to get any of the cash-shop items other then getting gold). That is the whole point, going directly for an item is nearly impossible, that is what turns everything into a gold (currency) grind.

Not true at all. Using ascended as an example. I can effectively farm for every single material needed to craft ascended, without ever having to spend a copper in the TP.
I’ve done it with my first and second sets of ascended armor, and for most of my legendary.

As far as gem store items, those don’t count. Those are cosmetic, completely optional, and don’t fall into the catagory of nessecary equipment, or BiS gear.

Lol.. I couldn’t care less for ascended, I care for cosmetics so they 100% count. Not for you but for all those who are interested in cosmetics. I don’t care if it;s optional. People complain about some grind in WoW and say it’s required, however I never had to grind in the game so then thats also optional and does not count?

It counts if people experience it as grind. It does not matter if something is optional, the whole game is optional, any game is optional so by that reasoning the term grind does not even exist.

Aidenwolf.5964:

pdavis.8031:

Again. It is not a required grind. The key word is “required.” The problem is that people feel that they need X “right now” and because of that, tend to grind for gold to be able to buy it off the TP faster. And most of the time the item they are going after isn’t much more than a skin change. So people feel that everything is a grind because they feel they need it ASAP. But what if I were to tell you , you didn’t “need” X item to be able to play and enjoy the game?
The gem conversion was introduced so players can get what they want by spending money. They could bypass the percieve required grind, and just straight out buy it. Or if there was something in the gem store they wanted they could use in-game gold to get it. Provided yet another way to be able to get anything and everything inside the game without having to grind. (Of course with the exception of ascended gear, as some of what is required is account bound.)

So in the end. You don’t need to grind gold, or mats, or anything else if you don’t want to.

You do If you want to make ascended gear. This is a fact and arguing against facts doesn’t change them.

What part of crafting ascended gear requires a grind?
Cloth? Can get as drops from almost every enemy.
Ascended mats? (i.e. bloodstone, empyreal fragments, dragonite.) Come from a variety of sources, and that abundantly. None of which I need to do repeteivly in order to get.
Recipes? Get laurals just from logging in.

pdavis.8031:

Bernie.8674:

Test.8734:

The statement “We don’t want people to grind” is factually a lie – if that were true, ArenaNet would not allow people to grind, much less make grind far more rewarding than not grinding.

Agreed. They used to have diminishing rewards built into the game. If you spent too long in an area grinding the same content repeatedly the drops would degrade in quantity and quality. They removed that constraint, effectively incentivizing grind over gameplay.

Are you sure about that? Pretty sure DR is still in the game. However, it is not known what the threshold for it to kick in is, as far as drops are concerned. Also John Smith did say recently that there have been very few people to have hit DR while farming/grinding. So it’s almost a non issues, but still in the game.

John Smith.4610:

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

I’ve not read this whole thread so forgive me if this is answered elsewhere. I want to ask a few questions.

1. Is the loot system currently set up so people who play less are more likely to get an awesome RNG drop? There have been numerous posts like, “my friend logged on after 5 months and got X, Y, Z drop while I’ve been playing every day and got nothing!” I want to know if the way it works currently is that those who play lots get decreasing loot in proportion to playtime. Why would ANET do this? To keep people chasing the carrot.

John answered that question in a different thread, there arent any account modifiers.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/I-have-a-question-about-the-economy/page/15#post4487484

what he is speaking of wouldnt be an account modifier, and it probably does exist, mildy. There is Diminishing returns on drops and it decays pretty slowly. You will in fact see more drops in your first few hours after not having played for awhile.

They will never tell us exactly what is happening, but your friend who plays rarely will basically have no DR for almost all of their playtime.

Still catching up, but I wanted to stop to be clear. No to this. This doesn’t happen, it’s a cognitive bias. There’s virtually no DR active on any given day.

john smith is wrong or his view is very subjective, its really really easy to get DR, i can see DR in like 20 minutes in silverwastes and Orr. Quantifiable provable DR. when you start to get less karma/gold per gold dynamic event? you just hit one form of DR.

perhaps its a bug, but that just means anet doesnt know about it. It wouldnt be the first time.

Devata.6589:

pdavis.8031:

Devata.6589:

“Those who don’t like to grind for the items” You mean people farming directly for items?. but that is one of the things that is pretty much impossible in this game.

There are grinds where you know there are ‘good’ drops and so you can make a lot of gold with it, but directly farming for an item you want is nearly or completely impossible in this game (for example there is not any direct in-game way to get any of the cash-shop items other then getting gold). That is the whole point, going directly for an item is nearly impossible, that is what turns everything into a gold (currency) grind.

Not true at all. Using ascended as an example. I can effectively farm for every single material needed to craft ascended, without ever having to spend a copper in the TP.
I’ve done it with my first and second sets of ascended armor, and for most of my legendary.

As far as gem store items, those don’t count. Those are cosmetic, completely optional, and don’t fall into the catagory of nessecary equipment, or BiS gear.

Lol.. I couldn’t care less for ascended, I care for cosmetics so they 100% count. Not for you but for all those who are interested in cosmetics. I don’t care if it;s optional. People complain about some grind in WoW and say it’s required, however I never had to grind in the game so then thats also optional and does not count?

It counts if people experience it as grind. It does not matter if something is optional, the whole game is optional, any game is optional so by that reasoning the term grind does not even exist.

Cosmetics don’t provide any change in stats. Sure some people care about them, but the point is grind for BiS gear. Even so, skins can be bought either on the TP, or in the gem store. Both of which provide multiple ways to aquire them, either with a credit card, gem conversion, or the TP (for those skins not available in the gem store).
If someone wants them they don’t need to grind to get them. As said before they can get gold just buy playing, and converting to gems, or by using a credit card and gem conversion. None of which requires grinding, or doing the same content over and over in order to get them.

phys.7689:

pdavis.8031:

Bernie.8674:

Test.8734:

The statement “We don’t want people to grind” is factually a lie – if that were true, ArenaNet would not allow people to grind, much less make grind far more rewarding than not grinding.

Agreed. They used to have diminishing rewards built into the game. If you spent too long in an area grinding the same content repeatedly the drops would degrade in quantity and quality. They removed that constraint, effectively incentivizing grind over gameplay.

Are you sure about that? Pretty sure DR is still in the game. However, it is not known what the threshold for it to kick in is, as far as drops are concerned. Also John Smith did say recently that there have been very few people to have hit DR while farming/grinding. So it’s almost a non issues, but still in the game.

John Smith.4610:

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

I’ve not read this whole thread so forgive me if this is answered elsewhere. I want to ask a few questions.

1. Is the loot system currently set up so people who play less are more likely to get an awesome RNG drop? There have been numerous posts like, “my friend logged on after 5 months and got X, Y, Z drop while I’ve been playing every day and got nothing!” I want to know if the way it works currently is that those who play lots get decreasing loot in proportion to playtime. Why would ANET do this? To keep people chasing the carrot.

John answered that question in a different thread, there arent any account modifiers.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/I-have-a-question-about-the-economy/page/15#post4487484

what he is speaking of wouldnt be an account modifier, and it probably does exist, mildy. There is Diminishing returns on drops and it decays pretty slowly. You will in fact see more drops in your first few hours after not having played for awhile.

They will never tell us exactly what is happening, but your friend who plays rarely will basically have no DR for almost all of their playtime.

Still catching up, but I wanted to stop to be clear. No to this. This doesn’t happen, it’s a cognitive bias. There’s virtually no DR active on any given day.

john smith is wrong or his view is very subjective, its really really easy to get DR, i can see DR in like 20 minutes in silverwastes and Orr. Quantifiable provable DR. when you start to get less karma/gold per gold dynamic event? you just hit one form of DR.

perhaps its a bug, but that just means anet doesnt know about it. It wouldnt be the first time.

Pretty sure John was speaking directly to the DR as applied to drops, as was the context for the section quoted.

John Smith.4610:

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

I’ve not read this whole thread so forgive me if this is answered elsewhere. I want to ask a few questions.

1. Is the loot system currently set up so people who play less are more likely to get an awesome RNG drop? There have been numerous posts like, “my friend logged on after 5 months and got X, Y, Z drop while I’ve been playing every day and got nothing!” I want to know if the way it works currently is that those who play lots get decreasing loot in proportion to playtime. Why would ANET do this? To keep people chasing the carrot.

John answered that question in a different thread, there arent any account modifiers.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/I-have-a-question-about-the-economy/page/15#post4487484

what he is speaking of wouldnt be an account modifier, and it probably does exist, mildy. There is Diminishing returns on drops and it decays pretty slowly. You will in fact see more drops in your first few hours after not having played for awhile.

They will never tell us exactly what is happening, but your friend who plays rarely will basically have no DR for almost all of their playtime.

Still catching up, but I wanted to stop to be clear. No to this. This doesn’t happen, it’s a cognitive bias. There’s virtually no DR active on any given day.

The DR for karma/gold rewards for events and/or dungeons can be seen fairly quickly, as it should be. It helps stop bots from just farming events for hours. But again, it looks like John was referring to loot drops, as was the topic of that post.

Crovax.7854:

Aidenwolf.5964:

Devata.6589:

Rin.1046:

Aidenwolf.5964:

The grind is in making those ascended mats into armor. Low level mats are either bought at insane prices of grinding the kitten out low maps praying for bags to drop since gear drops won’t be map level but character level.

Here is how I think Anet looks at this:

You need mats? Go do what you want and earn the gold to buy them. Or make a new character (if you want to) and level them, gaining the mats as you go.

This may not be your ideal solution, but the fact is you CAN do want you want (PvP, WvW, dungeons, fractals, world bosses, dynamic events) and this WILL earn you gold with which to buy whatever mats you need (with the exception of ascended, which can be aquired from drops in many different areas of the game and doing many different activities). You are not restricted to low level zones and you do not NEED to grind those zones and pray for the bags. This is a limit you have imposed on yourself, not one Anet has imposed on you.

Ascended mat acquisition, in my opinion, needs to be improved. It is getting better though, so I am not worried about this too much.

snip.

Well reasoned. I definitely believe the game was rebuilt around the TP as it shares a UI with the gem store.

In my opinion it’s a shame they insist on their precious ‘economy’. Diablo 3 had the same problem until Blizzard wisened up and removed the AH completely, which in return made it possible to significatnly improve the rate at which highly sought after legendaries and other rare items dropped.
Now that game is more fun and rewarding than it could’ve ever been before the loot patch.
The things the TP in GW has brought us are:
- a lot of junk and vendor items
- reliance on gold for everything, making grinding the most optimal way to obtain ‘prestigious’ (I guess they were at least meant to be) skins.
- droprates and a rewardsystem that make it possible for account with over 3k hours to never have seen a precursor if not bought from the TP.
- very long stretches of gameplay between ‘meaningful’ drops i.e. high value items/skins.
- an overall unrewarding and boring experience that makes obtaining skins seem like a dayjob or a mortage which you chip away at bit by bit.

I guess those are all very subjective but it’s how I view the TP. Blizz proved they value fun more anything. Why can’t ANet?

I absolutely agree, Blizz also proved that the same type of economy that GW2 has right now just doesn’t work. 60% of their players left D3 because everything worth getting, required purchasing and required real money for thousands to reach max level gear.

The same thing is happening here but because not everyone has the same chances at getting the loot they need or the type of loot they need, we have people who keep insisting nothing like this is happening because they just happened to be on accounts that weren’t drastically affected negatively by systems like DR that prevent people from farming.

Really what they could do is change the requirement for ascended make the item a karma item that you need to get directly (without bags) from a vendor and poof this conversation would be over and people wouldn’t be worried about collecting thousands of silk.

If this were minecraft I’d be able to build a mountain and a castle in the sky with all of the skulls I’ve received from events in this game instead of the loot I deserve for participating and getting gold status (rather than gold coins) in events and that’s another thing!

If we got proper currency rewards from events this type of thing wouldn’t be a problem either instead of relying on the TP, like other MMO’s out there do. It’s like saying that because you’re not a broker who has insider trading, even though you are participating in the economy and work hard, that you don’t deserve to be rewarded for your time doing the same things other players are doing.

That’s basically what these people’s arguments are at this point.

No one’s asking for prices to drop, no one’s asking for things to be given to them freely, no one is saying that they should have things without playing the game, people are saying and rightly so that playing the game doesn’t give you the progression, playing the TP does and that’s never fun nor should it be necessary.

pdavis.8031:

Aidenwolf.5964:

pdavis.8031:

Again. It is not a required grind. The key word is “required.” The problem is that people feel that they need X “right now” and because of that, tend to grind for gold to be able to buy it off the TP faster. And most of the time the item they are going after isn’t much more than a skin change. So people feel that everything is a grind because they feel they need it ASAP. But what if I were to tell you , you didn’t “need” X item to be able to play and enjoy the game?
The gem conversion was introduced so players can get what they want by spending money. They could bypass the percieve required grind, and just straight out buy it. Or if there was something in the gem store they wanted they could use in-game gold to get it. Provided yet another way to be able to get anything and everything inside the game without having to grind. (Of course with the exception of ascended gear, as some of what is required is account bound.)

So in the end. You don’t need to grind gold, or mats, or anything else if you don’t want to.

You do If you want to make ascended gear. This is a fact and arguing against facts doesn’t change them.

What part of crafting ascended gear requires a grind?
Cloth? Can get as drops from almost every enemy.
Ascended mats? (i.e. bloodstone, empyreal fragments, dragonite.) Come from a variety of sources, and that abundantly. None of which I need to do repeteivly in order to get.
Recipes? Get laurals just from logging in.

Cloth absolutely requires a grind either in gold or materials. To say otherwise makes no sense to anyone. Ascended materials are easy but cloth and leather require massive amounts of lower mats that must be grinder or purchased in quanties that require vast amounts of gold.

Aidenwolf.5964:

pdavis.8031:

Aidenwolf.5964:

pdavis.8031:

Again. It is not a required grind. The key word is “required.” The problem is that people feel that they need X “right now” and because of that, tend to grind for gold to be able to buy it off the TP faster. And most of the time the item they are going after isn’t much more than a skin change. So people feel that everything is a grind because they feel they need it ASAP. But what if I were to tell you , you didn’t “need” X item to be able to play and enjoy the game?
The gem conversion was introduced so players can get what they want by spending money. They could bypass the percieve required grind, and just straight out buy it. Or if there was something in the gem store they wanted they could use in-game gold to get it. Provided yet another way to be able to get anything and everything inside the game without having to grind. (Of course with the exception of ascended gear, as some of what is required is account bound.)

So in the end. You don’t need to grind gold, or mats, or anything else if you don’t want to.

You do If you want to make ascended gear. This is a fact and arguing against facts doesn’t change them.

What part of crafting ascended gear requires a grind?
Cloth? Can get as drops from almost every enemy.
Ascended mats? (i.e. bloodstone, empyreal fragments, dragonite.) Come from a variety of sources, and that abundantly. None of which I need to do repeteivly in order to get.
Recipes? Get laurals just from logging in.

Cloth absolutely requires a grind either in gold or materials. To say otherwise makes no sense to anyone. Ascended materials are easy but cloth and leather require massive amounts of lower mats that must be grinder or purchased in quanties that require vast amounts of gold.

It’s only a grind if you feel the need to get it ASAP. I think I’ve been working on my current light ascended piece for about 2 months now? And am almost done with it. Did I need to spend countless hours doing the same thing over and over to get it? nope. (Although to be fair, I have been running alot of SW lately. LOVE THAT MAP!! Plus it gives a great amount of silk.)

So your saying that one cannot get the required amount of cloth/leather just by playing the game? Why not? ~1/3 of all armor drops give cloth. (salvaging), bags and salavagables also provide cloth. Map completion provides cloth. So I can get all the cloth I need simply by playing the game. Is it going to take longer? Absolutely. But that doesn’t mean I am forced into repeating stuff (aka grinding) JUST to get the materials needed.

pdavis.8031:

Aidenwolf.5964:

pdavis.8031:

Aidenwolf.5964:

pdavis.8031:

Again. It is not a required grind. The key word is “required.” The problem is that people feel that they need X “right now” and because of that, tend to grind for gold to be able to buy it off the TP faster. And most of the time the item they are going after isn’t much more than a skin change. So people feel that everything is a grind because they feel they need it ASAP. But what if I were to tell you , you didn’t “need” X item to be able to play and enjoy the game?
The gem conversion was introduced so players can get what they want by spending money. They could bypass the percieve required grind, and just straight out buy it. Or if there was something in the gem store they wanted they could use in-game gold to get it. Provided yet another way to be able to get anything and everything inside the game without having to grind. (Of course with the exception of ascended gear, as some of what is required is account bound.)

So in the end. You don’t need to grind gold, or mats, or anything else if you don’t want to.

You do If you want to make ascended gear. This is a fact and arguing against facts doesn’t change them.

What part of crafting ascended gear requires a grind?
Cloth? Can get as drops from almost every enemy.
Ascended mats? (i.e. bloodstone, empyreal fragments, dragonite.) Come from a variety of sources, and that abundantly. None of which I need to do repeteivly in order to get.
Recipes? Get laurals just from logging in.

Cloth absolutely requires a grind either in gold or materials. To say otherwise makes no sense to anyone. Ascended materials are easy but cloth and leather require massive amounts of lower mats that must be grinder or purchased in quanties that require vast amounts of gold.

It’s only a grind if you feel the need to get it ASAP. I think I’ve been working on my current light ascended piece for about 2 months now? And am almost done with it. Did I need to spend countless hours doing the same thing over and over to get it? nope. (Although to be fair, I have been running alot of SW lately. LOVE THAT MAP!! Plus it gives a great amount of silk.)

So your saying that one cannot get the required amount of cloth/leather just by playing the game? Why not? ~1/3 of all armor drops give cloth. (salvaging), bags and salavagables also provide cloth. Map completion provides cloth. So I can get all the cloth I need simply by playing the game. Is it going to take longer? Absolutely. But that doesn’t mean I am forced into repeating stuff (aka grinding) JUST to get the materials needed.

All evidence to the contrary but continue to white night in the face of evidence. Your arguments continue to be (not just in this thread) that you don’t have to grind if you don’t want to but you’ve made a critical error here. Ascended light armor is very expensive because the cloth used to make it and even the leather to a lesser degree require either a large sum of gold or time to acquire. You mention silk from SW but fail to mention cotton and linen (forget about those?). As you’ve stated just now you’re working on your ascended for the past 2 months which is counter to your claim that it’s easy.

Aidenwolf.5964:

pdavis.8031:

Aidenwolf.5964:

pdavis.8031:

Aidenwolf.5964:

pdavis.8031:

Again. It is not a required grind. The key word is “required.” The problem is that people feel that they need X “right now” and because of that, tend to grind for gold to be able to buy it off the TP faster. And most of the time the item they are going after isn’t much more than a skin change. So people feel that everything is a grind because they feel they need it ASAP. But what if I were to tell you , you didn’t “need” X item to be able to play and enjoy the game?
The gem conversion was introduced so players can get what they want by spending money. They could bypass the percieve required grind, and just straight out buy it. Or if there was something in the gem store they wanted they could use in-game gold to get it. Provided yet another way to be able to get anything and everything inside the game without having to grind. (Of course with the exception of ascended gear, as some of what is required is account bound.)

So in the end. You don’t need to grind gold, or mats, or anything else if you don’t want to.

You do If you want to make ascended gear. This is a fact and arguing against facts doesn’t change them.

What part of crafting ascended gear requires a grind?
Cloth? Can get as drops from almost every enemy.
Ascended mats? (i.e. bloodstone, empyreal fragments, dragonite.) Come from a variety of sources, and that abundantly. None of which I need to do repeteivly in order to get.
Recipes? Get laurals just from logging in.

Cloth absolutely requires a grind either in gold or materials. To say otherwise makes no sense to anyone. Ascended materials are easy but cloth and leather require massive amounts of lower mats that must be grinder or purchased in quanties that require vast amounts of gold.

It’s only a grind if you feel the need to get it ASAP. I think I’ve been working on my current light ascended piece for about 2 months now? And am almost done with it. Did I need to spend countless hours doing the same thing over and over to get it? nope. (Although to be fair, I have been running alot of SW lately. LOVE THAT MAP!! Plus it gives a great amount of silk.)

So your saying that one cannot get the required amount of cloth/leather just by playing the game? Why not? ~1/3 of all armor drops give cloth. (salvaging), bags and salavagables also provide cloth. Map completion provides cloth. So I can get all the cloth I need simply by playing the game. Is it going to take longer? Absolutely. But that doesn’t mean I am forced into repeating stuff (aka grinding) JUST to get the materials needed.

All evidence to the contrary but continue to white night in the face of evidence. Your arguments continue to be (not just in this thread) that you don’t have to grind if you don’t want to but you’ve made a critical error here. Ascended light armor is very expensive because the cloth used to make it and even the leather to a lesser degree require either a large sum of gold or time to acquire. You mention silk from SW but fail to mention cotton and linen (forget about those?). As you’ve stated just now you’re working on your ascended for the past 2 months which is counter to your claim that it’s easy.

I have yet to see any evidence that ascended gear requires a grind. I am not disputing the fact that ascended light is expensive, nor that it requires a large amount of mats to make. There are multiple ways to craft ascended. Farm/grind for the required mats, farm/grind for gold, or play the game and aquire the mats along the way.

As far as Linen, wool, and cotton. Those also drop in the level appropriate zones. If I want to get those I need to go do content in those places. Thats not a grind. It’s changing the location of where I play. I can go do some JPs, or events, or randomly wander around exploring and killing things, and still get those mats needed. Same for leather, wood, and metal.

Tell me. What content DOES NOT give any of the materials required to craft ascended? The only one I can think of is activities. (i.e. southsun survival, sanctum sprint, etc.)
What content DOES NOT give money so that you can buy the mats if you want?

You accuse me of “white knighting in the face of evidence”. Yet I can say the exact same about those claiming that ascended gear “requires” a grind of some sort in order to craft it. The TRUTH is that Anet has included multiple ways of getting the mats to craft ascended armor. So no one is forced into doing certain content repeatedly in order to obtain it. Period. So unless you can show me real evidence that you CANNOT get ALL the mats needed by playing any game mode, by all means, please do so.

Materials is one step too far removed. Gathering mats does not get you an ascended.

Crafting gets you the ascended. For which you need to level that crafting to max. An obscenely rare chance of a drop is the other way.

Thus there is only two ways to get ascended and only one is reliable.

With exotic I can craft (the act of getting it and not simply gathering mats for which there is plenty of ways here too), spend karma (I can get karma in many different ways), get it as a drop (unreliable but better odds than ascended), spend gold + badges from vendor, spend gold on TP (craft or drop being the ultimate source).

I can’t spend karma on ascended, I can’t spend gold + badges, and I can’t spend gold on TP.

Deamhan.9538:

Materials is one step too far removed. Gathering mats does not get you an ascended.

Crafting gets you the ascended. For which you need to level that crafting to max. An obscenely rare chance of a drop is the other way.

Thus there is only two ways to get ascended and only one is reliable.

With exotic I can craft (the act of getting it and not simply gathering mats for which there is plenty of ways here too), spend karma (I can get karma in many different ways), get it as a drop (unreliable but better odds than ascended), spend gold + badges from vendor, spend gold on TP (craft or drop being the ultimate source).

I can’t spend karma on ascended, I can’t spend gold + badges, and I can’t spend gold on TP.

Of course crafting is the one of the only ways to get ascended. I agree that ascended drops are far too unreliable to even be considered.

However, all the materials needed to level your crafting to 500, and to craft the ascended itself are obtainable through normal drops via normal play. I don’t need to grind to get everything that I need to be able to craft. And gathering mats IS a way to get the materials needed to craft ascended. (weapons and heavy armor.)

The argument being made is that Ascended is expensive, and so you need to grind to get it. I am contending that while it is expensive, you don’t need to grind to get it. As said in the “Why is silk so expensive?” thread, there is a “percieved” grind that players have forced upon themselves. Its not something that Anet has, or has not, done to cause people to feel that it is required that they repeat content continually trying to craft ascended gear.

Vayne.8563:

Maybe you weren’t there or maybe you don’t remember. Maybe Colin doesn’t remember what was said at those panels but I do remember.

They gave examples of exactly what they meant. They referred to it directly at that time. What’s more likely to be accurate, something said at the time, or something said five years later?

Vayne.8563:

They gave the example of what they meant at that time.

Guess what? I was here at the time. I remember. And those examples you mentioned?

Here is what they wrote at the time of the Manifesto. And here it says:

ArenaNet

Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward.

“Future fun reward”? Do you think “levelling” is a “future fun reward”?

See, Vayne, that’s the difference between you and me. I can provide evidence to what I’m saying. I can show you where ArenaNet said “We don’t want players to grind”, I can show you quotes describing how they were not talking of grind as levelling only, I can show you where ArenaNet said that by grind they mean gear (hint: the latter is in my signature).

What can you do? Do you have even a single link quoting ArenaNet saying they saw grind as level grind only? You claim ArenaNet gave “examples” that reinforce your point, but you eternally fail to link them. Your main argument is…

Vayne.8563:

In my mind, and I think in the mind of most reasonable people.

Yeah, sorry buddy. Whatever you think “most reasonable people” means, well, it’s just your opinion. I’m argumenting with facts.

And the fact here is: the Manifesto was a lie. Has always been.

The signature and the constant back and forth here… are you like, bound together with Vayne in pact of hate? Maybe love? I saw that pop up a few times in the post history…

What’s the deal there man? Am I witnessing a love/hate romance?

CETheLucid.3964:

The signature and the constant back and forth here… are you like, bound together with Vayne in pact of hate? Maybe love? I saw that pop up a few times in the post history…

What’s the deal there man? Am I witnessing a love/hate romance?

Can I make a confession? Promise you won’t tell anyone else?

I’m actually Vayne’s alt account. For when we feel like doing a bit of PvP on the forums. Dragging other people in to it is a plus, but one of “us” needs to say something when the discussion begins to die down.

Test.8734:

CETheLucid.3964:

The signature and the constant back and forth here… are you like, bound together with Vayne in pact of hate? Maybe love? I saw that pop up a few times in the post history…

What’s the deal there man? Am I witnessing a love/hate romance?

Can I make a confession? Promise you won’t tell anyone else?

I’m actually Vayne’s alt account. For when we feel like doing a bit of PvP on the forums. Dragging other people in to it is a plus, but one of “us” needs to say something when the discussion begins to die down.

I know you’re (probably) joking, but that’s entirely believable given the breed of folk the forums seem to attract.

That scenario wouldn’t come as a surprise to me at all. But fine, I’ll keep your secret. Wink.

John Smith.4610:

Still catching up, but I wanted to stop to be clear. No to this. This doesn’t happen, it’s a cognitive bias. There’s virtually no DR active on any given day.

Please explain how DR doesn’t occur when loads of skulls start appearing from standard loot rolls in events and when something somewhere on server side is causing whole chests to not be visible anymore? If it’s not DR you’ve got a serious ongoing problem with the algorithm you’re using for the loot i’d say because it’s absolutely not in our heads when we can check and see this happening on a daily basis. There’s also the issue of unlucky accounts, in while whole accounts once skulls begin to drop and chests begin to disappear, are plagued with an ongoing lack of meaningful loot from events week after week. If that’s not DR then someone there needs to do something about the basic loot system because it’s not normal sorry.

It becomes a problem when people can’t farm for the most basic of items to get what they need to progress in anything including gearing or leveling crafting on these accounts.

I don’t know about the rest of you but when I look in my wallet after being paid and there’s no money there but it’s filled with lint I wouldn’t call that cognitive bias would you?

tigirius.9014:

John Smith.4610:

Still catching up, but I wanted to stop to be clear. No to this. This doesn’t happen, it’s a cognitive bias. There’s virtually no DR active on any given day.

Please explain how DR doesn’t occur when loads of skulls start appearing from standard loot rolls in events and when something somewhere on server side is causing whole chests to not be visible anymore? If it’s not DR you’ve got a serious ongoing problem with the algorithm you’re using for the loot i’d say because it’s absolutely not in our heads when we can check and see this happening on a daily basis. There’s also the issue of unlucky accounts, in while whole accounts once skulls begin to drop and chests begin to disappear, are plagued with an ongoing lack of meaningful loot from events week after week. If that’s not DR then someone there needs to do something about the basic loot system because it’s not normal sorry.

It becomes a problem when people can’t farm for the most basic of items to get what they need to progress in anything including gearing or leveling crafting on these accounts.

I don’t know about the rest of you but when I look in my wallet after being paid and there’s no money there but it’s filled with lint I wouldn’t call that cognitive bias would you?

The man in charge of the game’s economy sees nothing wrong with the system he oversees. From the point of view of an unlucky account holder this looks to be the real cognitive bias.

Test.8734:

Vayne.8563:

Maybe you weren’t there or maybe you don’t remember. Maybe Colin doesn’t remember what was said at those panels but I do remember.

They gave examples of exactly what they meant. They referred to it directly at that time. What’s more likely to be accurate, something said at the time, or something said five years later?

Vayne.8563:

They gave the example of what they meant at that time.

Guess what? I was here at the time. I remember. And those examples you mentioned?

Here is what they wrote at the time of the Manifesto. And here it says:

ArenaNet

Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward.

“Future fun reward”? Do you think “levelling” is a “future fun reward”?

See, Vayne, that’s the difference between you and me. I can provide evidence to what I’m saying. I can show you where ArenaNet said “We don’t want players to grind”, I can show you quotes describing how they were not talking of grind as levelling only, I can show you where ArenaNet said that by grind they mean gear (hint: the latter is in my signature).

What can you do? Do you have even a single link quoting ArenaNet saying they saw grind as level grind only? You claim ArenaNet gave “examples” that reinforce your point, but you eternally fail to link them. Your main argument is…

Vayne.8563:

In my mind, and I think in the mind of most reasonable people.

Yeah, sorry buddy. Whatever you think “most reasonable people” means, well, it’s just your opinion. I’m argumenting with facts.

And the fact here is: the Manifesto was a lie. Has always been.

just on this part. If the game evolved past what was originally envisioned, is that a lie?

If you stated when you were young that you were never getting married. But grew up, began to view life very differently, and ended up getting married, does that make you a liar?
Anet envisioned a game where grind was not required for BiS gear. Then the game evolved and ascended was introduced. You can still craft ascended by not grinding at all. Does that mean what they originally envisioned is no longer applicable?
Can you site any example in game where you are required (as in having no other alternative) to do the same content, kill the same mobs, run the same events in order to craft ascenascended gear? Is any instinces where only one boss, or type of mob drops the needed items to craft ascended great?

pdavis.8031:

Test.8734:

Vayne.8563:

Maybe you weren’t there or maybe you don’t remember. Maybe Colin doesn’t remember what was said at those panels but I do remember.

They gave examples of exactly what they meant. They referred to it directly at that time. What’s more likely to be accurate, something said at the time, or something said five years later?

Vayne.8563:

They gave the example of what they meant at that time.

Guess what? I was here at the time. I remember. And those examples you mentioned?

Here is what they wrote at the time of the Manifesto. And here it says:

ArenaNet

Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward.

“Future fun reward”? Do you think “levelling” is a “future fun reward”?

See, Vayne, that’s the difference between you and me. I can provide evidence to what I’m saying. I can show you where ArenaNet said “We don’t want players to grind”, I can show you quotes describing how they were not talking of grind as levelling only, I can show you where ArenaNet said that by grind they mean gear (hint: the latter is in my signature).

What can you do? Do you have even a single link quoting ArenaNet saying they saw grind as level grind only? You claim ArenaNet gave “examples” that reinforce your point, but you eternally fail to link them. Your main argument is…

Vayne.8563:

In my mind, and I think in the mind of most reasonable people.

Yeah, sorry buddy. Whatever you think “most reasonable people” means, well, it’s just your opinion. I’m argumenting with facts.

And the fact here is: the Manifesto was a lie. Has always been.

just on this part. If the game evolved past what was originally envisioned, is that a lie?

If you stated when you were young that you were never getting married. But grew up, began to view life very differently, and ended up getting married, does that make you a liar?
Anet envisioned a game where grind was not required for BiS gear. Then the game evolved and ascended was introduced. You can still craft ascended by not grinding at all. Does that mean what they originally envisioned is no longer applicable?
Can you site any example in game where you are required (as in having no other alternative) to do the same content, kill the same mobs, run the same events in order to craft ascenascended gear? Is any instinces where only one boss, or type of mob drops the needed items to craft ascended great?

What you’re saying is the obvious, reasonable response. Some people would rather malign people because it makes them feel good somehow. Those people aren’t going to change their mind, no matter how reasonable what you’re saying is.

The only thing you can really do is continue to be reasonable and hope most of the people reading know the difference between intentions and what ends up happening. We all intend things all the time, not all of which come to pass. It doesn’t make us liars.

I sure hope the people calling Anet liars don’t extent that kind of judgement to those in their social circles.

Vayne.8563:

pdavis.8031:

Test.8734:

Vayne.8563:

Maybe you weren’t there or maybe you don’t remember. Maybe Colin doesn’t remember what was said at those panels but I do remember.

They gave examples of exactly what they meant. They referred to it directly at that time. What’s more likely to be accurate, something said at the time, or something said five years later?

Vayne.8563:

They gave the example of what they meant at that time.

Guess what? I was here at the time. I remember. And those examples you mentioned?

Here is what they wrote at the time of the Manifesto. And here it says:

ArenaNet

Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward.

“Future fun reward”? Do you think “levelling” is a “future fun reward”?

See, Vayne, that’s the difference between you and me. I can provide evidence to what I’m saying. I can show you where ArenaNet said “We don’t want players to grind”, I can show you quotes describing how they were not talking of grind as levelling only, I can show you where ArenaNet said that by grind they mean gear (hint: the latter is in my signature).

What can you do? Do you have even a single link quoting ArenaNet saying they saw grind as level grind only? You claim ArenaNet gave “examples” that reinforce your point, but you eternally fail to link them. Your main argument is…

Vayne.8563:

In my mind, and I think in the mind of most reasonable people.

Yeah, sorry buddy. Whatever you think “most reasonable people” means, well, it’s just your opinion. I’m argumenting with facts.

And the fact here is: the Manifesto was a lie. Has always been.

just on this part. If the game evolved past what was originally envisioned, is that a lie?

If you stated when you were young that you were never getting married. But grew up, began to view life very differently, and ended up getting married, does that make you a liar?
Anet envisioned a game where grind was not required for BiS gear. Then the game evolved and ascended was introduced. You can still craft ascended by not grinding at all. Does that mean what they originally envisioned is no longer applicable?
Can you site any example in game where you are required (as in having no other alternative) to do the same content, kill the same mobs, run the same events in order to craft ascenascended gear? Is any instinces where only one boss, or type of mob drops the needed items to craft ascended great?

What you’re saying is the obvious, reasonable response. Some people would rather malign people because it makes them feel good somehow. Those people aren’t going to change their mind, no matter how reasonable what you’re saying is.

The only thing you can really do is continue to be reasonable and hope most of the people reading know the difference between intentions and what ends up happening. We all intend things all the time, not all of which come to pass. It doesn’t make us liars.

I sure hope the people calling Anet liars don’t extent that kind of judgement to those in their social circles.

You shouldn’t say such things about yourself :P

pdavis.8031:

just on this part. If the game evolved past what was originally envisioned, is that a lie?

Too bad the Manifesto was used as one of the main marketing tool during release, when ArenaNet had already went against what it says. If you say your intention was to do something while you know what you have actually done is the opposite… Well, that’s pretty much a lie.

Vayne.8563:

What you’re saying is the obvious, reasonable response.

Again, you are ignoring the evidence – the links, the quotes and etc – to go with your usual “but most people/reasonable people/people I know agree with me”. That’s bad form, Vayne.

Test.8734:

pdavis.8031:

just on this part. If the game evolved past what was originally envisioned, is that a lie?

Too bad the Manifesto was used as one of the main marketing tool during release, when ArenaNet had already went against what it says. If you say your intention was to do something while you know what you have actually done is the opposite… Well, that’s pretty much a lie.

Vayne.8563:

What you’re saying is the obvious, reasonable response.

Again, you are ignoring the evidence – the links, the quotes and etc – to go with your usual “but most people/reasonable people/people I know agree with me”. That’s bad form, Vayne.

Hmmm.

When was the Manifesto published?
What was BiS at launch?
When was ascended introduced?

Ascended wasnt released at launch. That came much later.
Exotic was BiS until ascended. And in no way did it require a grind. Even now it is agreed that you don’t need to grind in order to get exotic. Therefore Anet has stuck by what they said in the Manifesto. Even with the introduction of ascended.

Also you haven’t answered my original questions.
Can you site any example in game where you are required (as in having no other alternative) to do the same content, kill the same mobs, run the same events in order to craft ascended gear? Is any instinces where only one boss, or type of mob drops the needed items to craft ascended gear?

pdavis.8031:

Ascended wasnt released at launch. That came much later.

Ascended was planned at launch. At least that’s what ArenaNet said following the huge backlash after ascended’s release. You can claim they were lying about that (too), but it’s what it is.

pdavis.8031:

Therefore Anet has stuck by what they said in the Manifesto. Even with the introduction of ascended.

Ignoring how that quote doesn’t make sense (the introduction of ascended goes completely against what they said in the Manifesto), ascended isn’t the only issue.

As Vayne mentioned earlier in this topic, ArenaNet’s exact words were, “We don’t want players to grind”. ArenaNet did not say, “We don’t want players to be forced to grind”. They did not say “We don’t want players to think there is a need to grind”.

No, their exact words were, “We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun”.

And that is a lie. If it were true and they didn’t want players to grind, they wouldn’t have linked some of the greatest rewards in the game – legendaries – to grind. If they wanted, they could have made it impossible to grind, thus really fulfilling the idea that they don’t want players to grind because “no one finds it fun”. Yet they didn’t. Because they lied.

In fact, at the written clarification of the Manifesto, which I have linked a few posts ago, ArenaNet claims GW2 is not about “grinding for a future fun reward”. Yet that’s pretty much what the process to acquire a legendary is.

pdavis.8031:

Can you site any example in game where you are required (as in having no other alternative) to do the same content, kill the same mobs, run the same events in order to craft ascended gear?

Yes. Everywhere.

Do you know why? Because if you kill every enemy in the game in every map and do all events and all dungeons and everything once and exactly once… You still won’t have enough to make a full set of ascended gear. You need repetition in order to do it. You need to grind it. Or you simply won’t have it.

Test.8734:

pdavis.8031:

just on this part. If the game evolved past what was originally envisioned, is that a lie?

Too bad the Manifesto was used as one of the main marketing tool during release, when ArenaNet had already went against what it says. If you say your intention was to do something while you know what you have actually done is the opposite… Well, that’s pretty much a lie.

Vayne.8563:

What you’re saying is the obvious, reasonable response.

Again, you are ignoring the evidence – the links, the quotes and etc – to go with your usual “but most people/reasonable people/people I know agree with me”. That’s bad form, Vayne.

Bad form? LMFAO.

You have a bunch of individual statements that have no substance. Simplest example is you depend on the statement that Anet was always planning on releasing another tier of gear before launch.

But there’s no mention in that single line quote about how the gear was to be attained. How “grindy” attaining it would be. You absolutely refuse to acknowledge the FACT that by the time ascended gear was actually released it could have substantially changed from Anet’s original plan.

Now, if it has changed, (and there’s no reason to think it didn’t, considering the iterative nature of Anet), then you have absolutely no grounds to believe they were lying. After all, there was a two year period between the statements of the manifesto and the release of ascended gear.

I believe (and I have reason to believe it) that ascended gear was introduced IN THE FORM IT CURRENTLY EXIST, due to reactions of the playerbase during the first months of the game.

Now whether you believe the same or not is irrelevant. You’re taking one sentence about ascended gear and making all sort of assumptions about what that was going to be, then you’re telling me it’s bad form for not believing your so called facts.

What you have is conjecture to support your theory.

It’s reasonable to give someone the benefit of the doubt without hard evidence. I won’t say they didn’t lie and I won’t say they did. I will say there’s plenty of room for doubt and only someone who has an absolute agenda, ie they don’t like the game, is going to jump on the they lied bandwagon.

It adds nothing at all to any argument, it’s not provable and therefore, it’s bad form.

Test.8734:

pdavis.8031:

Ascended wasnt released at launch. That came much later.

Ascended was planned at launch. At least that’s what ArenaNet said following the huge backlash after ascended’s release. You can claim they were lying about that (too), but it’s what it is.

pdavis.8031:

Therefore Anet has stuck by what they said in the Manifesto. Even with the introduction of ascended.

Ignoring how that quote doesn’t make sense (the introduction of ascended goes completely against what they said in the Manifesto), ascended isn’t the only issue.

As Vayne mentioned earlier in this topic, ArenaNet’s exact words were, “We don’t want players to grind”. ArenaNet did not say, “We don’t want players to be forced to grind”. They did not say “We don’t want players to think there is a need to grind”.

No, their exact words were, “We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun”.

And that is a lie. If it were true and they didn’t want players to grind, they wouldn’t have linked some of the greatest rewards in the game – legendaries – to grind. If they wanted, they could have made it impossible to grind, thus really fulfilling the idea that they don’t want players to grind because “no one finds it fun”. Yet they didn’t. Because they lied.

In fact, at the written clarification of the Manifesto, which I have linked a few posts ago, ArenaNet claims GW2 is not about “grinding for a future fun reward”. Yet that’s pretty much what the process to acquire a legendary is.

pdavis.8031:

Can you site any example in game where you are required (as in having no other alternative) to do the same content, kill the same mobs, run the same events in order to craft ascended gear?

Yes. Everywhere.

Do you know why? Because if you kill every enemy in the game in every map and do all events and all dungeons and everything once and exactly once… You still won’t have enough to make a full set of ascended gear. You need repetition in order to do it. You need to grind it. Or you simply won’t have it.

Repeating many different things once doesn’t equal grind. Doing the same thing over and over equals grind.

Making up your own definitions won’t help you win arguments.

Vayne.8563:

You have a bunch of individual statements that have no substance.

You have no individual statement. Nothing at all. Ergo, all you have is the “it” you describe here:

Vayne.8563:

It adds nothing at all to any argument, it’s not provable and therefore, it’s bad form.

So I’m happy we both agree your empty conjectures are bad form.

Still waiting for an answer on “We don’t want players to grind” versus all the rewards for grinding the game had at release.

Test.8734:

pdavis.8031:

Ascended wasnt released at launch. That came much later.

Ascended was planned at launch. At least that’s what ArenaNet said following the huge backlash after ascended’s release. You can claim they were lying about that (too), but it’s what it is.

pdavis.8031:

Therefore Anet has stuck by what they said in the Manifesto. Even with the introduction of ascended.

Ignoring how that quote doesn’t make sense (the introduction of ascended goes completely against what they said in the Manifesto), ascended isn’t the only issue.

As Vayne mentioned earlier in this topic, ArenaNet’s exact words were, “We don’t want players to grind”. ArenaNet did not say, “We don’t want players to be forced to grind”. They did not say “We don’t want players to think there is a need to grind”.

No, their exact words were, “We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun”.

And that is a lie. If it were true and they didn’t want players to grind, they wouldn’t have linked some of the greatest rewards in the game – legendaries – to grind. If they wanted, they could have made it impossible to grind, thus really fulfilling the idea that they don’t want players to grind because “no one finds it fun”. Yet they didn’t. Because they lied.

In fact, at the written clarification of the Manifesto, which I have linked a few posts ago, ArenaNet claims GW2 is not about “grinding for a future fun reward”. Yet that’s pretty much what the process to acquire a legendary is.

pdavis.8031:

Can you site any example in game where you are required (as in having no other alternative) to do the same content, kill the same mobs, run the same events in order to craft ascended gear?

Yes. Everywhere.

Do you know why? Because if you kill every enemy in the game in every map and do all events and all dungeons and everything once and exactly once… You still won’t have enough to make a full set of ascended gear. You need repetition in order to do it. You need to grind it. Or you simply won’t have it.

So ANY sort of repetition is considered grind. Gotcha

Also in the clarification Anet said that Legendaries were acceptable, in that they are cosmetic/prestige items and not required for BiS or for progression. This also has been pointed out several times, which you seem to ignore.

As for: "

Therefore Anet has stuck by what they said in the Manifesto. Even with the introduction of ascended.

Ignoring how that quote doesn’t make sense (the introduction of ascended goes completely against what they said in the Manifesto), ascended isn’t the only issue."
The correlation was exotic at the time of launch was BiS. Which doesn’t require a grind in any way shape of form. They introduced ascended. Which moved the BiS to ascended. So now players had something better to work toward. You can still get everything you need to craft ascended just by playing the game. They even expanded the rewards in other game modes to make it so sole WvW or PvP players can still craft ascended.

However, if you are assuming that grind is having to repeat anything in game more than once. Then sure, ascended doesn’t fit in with the manifesto. However, repetition is a part of video games, and MMOs in general, BUT that doesn’t mean that repetition = grind. Grind, as stated by Anet, and many other sources, is defined as the process of engaging in repetitive tasks during video games in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill AI-controlled monsters, using basically the same strategy over and over again to advance their character level to be able to access newer content.

So by the actual definition, and Anets definition, does crafting ascended require grind? No. Not in the slightest.