Guild Wars 2

Test.8734:

pdavis.8031:

Ascended wasnt released at launch. That came much later.

Ascended was planned at launch. At least that’s what ArenaNet said following the huge backlash after ascended’s release. You can claim they were lying about that (too), but it’s what it is.

pdavis.8031:

Therefore Anet has stuck by what they said in the Manifesto. Even with the introduction of ascended.

Ignoring how that quote doesn’t make sense (the introduction of ascended goes completely against what they said in the Manifesto), ascended isn’t the only issue.

As Vayne mentioned earlier in this topic, ArenaNet’s exact words were, “We don’t want players to grind”. ArenaNet did not say, “We don’t want players to be forced to grind”. They did not say “We don’t want players to think there is a need to grind”.

No, their exact words were, “We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun”.

And that is a lie. If it were true and they didn’t want players to grind, they wouldn’t have linked some of the greatest rewards in the game – legendaries – to grind. If they wanted, they could have made it impossible to grind, thus really fulfilling the idea that they don’t want players to grind because “no one finds it fun”. Yet they didn’t. Because they lied.

In fact, at the written clarification of the Manifesto, which I have linked a few posts ago, ArenaNet claims GW2 is not about “grinding for a future fun reward”. Yet that’s pretty much what the process to acquire a legendary is.

pdavis.8031:

Can you site any example in game where you are required (as in having no other alternative) to do the same content, kill the same mobs, run the same events in order to craft ascended gear?

Yes. Everywhere.

Do you know why? Because if you kill every enemy in the game in every map and do all events and all dungeons and everything once and exactly once… You still won’t have enough to make a full set of ascended gear. You need repetition in order to do it. You need to grind it. Or you simply won’t have it.

So ANY sort of repetition is considered grind. Gotcha

Also in the clarification Anet said that Legendaries were acceptable, in that they are cosmetic/prestige items and not required for BiS or for progression. This also has been pointed out several times, which you seem to ignore.

As for: "

Therefore Anet has stuck by what they said in the Manifesto. Even with the introduction of ascended.

Ignoring how that quote doesn’t make sense (the introduction of ascended goes completely against what they said in the Manifesto), ascended isn’t the only issue."
The correlation was exotic at the time of launch was BiS. Which doesn’t require a grind in any way shape of form. They introduced ascended. Which moved the BiS to ascended. So now players had something better to work toward. You can still get everything you need to craft ascended just by playing the game. They even expanded the rewards in other game modes to make it so sole WvW or PvP players can still craft ascended.

However, if you are assuming that grind is having to repeat anything in game more than once. Then sure, ascended doesn’t fit in with the manifesto. However, repetition is a part of video games, and MMOs in general, BUT that doesn’t mean that repetition = grind. Grind, as stated by Anet, and many other sources, is defined as the process of engaging in repetitive tasks during video games in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill AI-controlled monsters, using basically the same strategy over and over again to advance their character level to be able to access newer content.

So by the actual definition, and Anets definition, does crafting ascended require grind? No. Not in the slightest.

Test.8734:

Vayne.8563:

You have a bunch of individual statements that have no substance.

You have no individual statement. Nothing at all. Ergo, all you have is the “it” you describe here:

Vayne.8563:

It adds nothing at all to any argument, it’s not provable and therefore, it’s bad form.

So I’m happy we both agree your empty conjectures are bad form.

Still waiting for an answer on “We don’t want players to grind” versus all the rewards for grinding the game had at release.

No more reason to respond to you. I gave you specifics you ignore them. You gave me assumptions and refuse to acknowledge they are assumptions.

I’ll stay with my opinion that most reasonable people have stopped listening to you a long time ago and bowed out of this. I’ll do the same. Have fun.

Ascended armor, which is BiS gear, is by most peoples’ definition a grind. But since they can say that it’s not required to play the game, then it isn’t a “real” grind.

Vayne.8563:

I’ll stay with my opinion that most reasonable people have stopped listening to you a long time ago and bowed out of this. I’ll do the same. Have fun.

Yeah, pretty much. This 31 page post of back and forth is waaay too grindy for my blood.

CETheLucid.3964:

Vayne.8563:

I’ll stay with my opinion that most reasonable people have stopped listening to you a long time ago and bowed out of this. I’ll do the same. Have fun.

Yeah, pretty much. This 31 page post of back and forth is waaay too grindy for my blood.

That’s something I think we can all agree one. Whether or not you find the game grindy, the forum is definitely a grind. lol

pdavis.8031:

So ANY sort of repetition is considered grind. Gotcha

Actually, per your own words…

pdavis.8031:

Can you site any example in game where you are required (as in having no other alternative) to do the same content, kill the same mobs, run the same events in order to craft ascended gear?

You asked for an example where repetition is necessary to craft ascended gear. I have given you exactly what you asked for.

pdavis.8031:

Also in the clarification Anet said that Legendaries were acceptable, in that they are cosmetic/prestige items and not required for BiS or for progression. This also has been pointed out several times, which you seem to ignore.

Already replied to that:

As Vayne mentioned earlier in this topic, ArenaNet’s exact words were, “We don’t want players to grind”. ArenaNet did not say, “We don’t want players to be forced to grind”. They did not say “We don’t want players to think there is a need to grind”.

No, their exact words were, “We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun”.

The idea that there is an amount of grind that is acceptable is a new creation that goes against what they have stated in the manifesto.

pdavis.8031:

Grind, as stated by Anet, and many other sources, is defined as the process of engaging in repetitive tasks during video games in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill AI-controlled monsters, using basically the same strategy over and over again to advance their character level to be able to access newer content.

Bzzzzz! Wrong! Again, you are making conclusions out of thin air. ArenaNet has never stated anything even remotely similar to grind being abouy players having to “advance their character level”. Vayne’s theory that, for ArenaNet, “grind = levelling” has been proved to be wrong.

Vayne.8563:

No more reason to respond to you. I gave you specifics you ignore them. You gave me assumptions and refuse to acknowledge they are assumptions.

I’ll stay with my opinion that most reasonable people have stopped listening to you a long time ago and bowed out of this. I’ll do the same. Have fun.

I gave you evidence and you ignore them. I gave you links and citations to which you cannot counter argument, and you pretend they don’t exist.

It’s ironic that you mention assumptions and the refusal to acknowledge that they are assumptions right before stating that “most reasonable people have stopped listening” to me. In a typical Vayne argument, you refuse to see the facts and instead returns to the “most reasonable people/most people I know/all my friends agree with me” assumption.

I remember how, a looooong time ago, you claimed your interpretation of the Manifesto was right because you had asked other editors about it and they had shared your conclusions. It’s interesting that you gave more value to the opinion of invisible editors than to the ArenaNet’s statements I have been throwing at you and that you fail to acknowledge.

Sorry Vayne, your assumptions cannot defeat my facts. The Manifesto is, and has always been, a lie.

Test.8734:

pdavis.8031:

So ANY sort of repetition is considered grind. Gotcha

Actually, per your own words…

pdavis.8031:

Can you site any example in game where you are required (as in having no other alternative) to do the same content, kill the same mobs, run the same events in order to craft ascended gear?

You asked for an example where repetition is necessary to craft ascended gear. I have given you exactly what you asked for.

pdavis.8031:

Also in the clarification Anet said that Legendaries were acceptable, in that they are cosmetic/prestige items and not required for BiS or for progression. This also has been pointed out several times, which you seem to ignore.

Already replied to that:

As Vayne mentioned earlier in this topic, ArenaNet’s exact words were, “We don’t want players to grind”. ArenaNet did not say, “We don’t want players to be forced to grind”. They did not say “We don’t want players to think there is a need to grind”.

No, their exact words were, “We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun”.

The idea that there is an amount of grind that is acceptable is a new creation that goes against what they have stated in the manifesto.

pdavis.8031:

Grind, as stated by Anet, and many other sources, is defined as the process of engaging in repetitive tasks during video games in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill AI-controlled monsters, using basically the same strategy over and over again to advance their character level to be able to access newer content.

Bzzzzz! Wrong! Again, you are making conclusions out of thin air. ArenaNet has never stated anything even remotely similar to grind being abouy players having to “advance their character level”. Vayne’s theory that, for ArenaNet, “grind = levelling” has been proved to be wrong.

Vayne.8563:

No more reason to respond to you. I gave you specifics you ignore them. You gave me assumptions and refuse to acknowledge they are assumptions.

I’ll stay with my opinion that most reasonable people have stopped listening to you a long time ago and bowed out of this. I’ll do the same. Have fun.

I gave you evidence and you ignore them. I gave you links and citations to which you cannot counter argument, and you pretend they don’t exist.

It’s ironic that you mention assumptions and the refusal to acknowledge that they are assumptions right before stating that “most reasonable people have stopped listening” to me. In a typical Vayne argument, you refuse to see the facts and instead returns to the “most reasonable people/most people I know/all my friends agree with me” assumption.

I remember how, a looooong time ago, you claimed your interpretation of the Manifesto was right because you had asked other editors about it and they had shared your conclusions. It’s interesting that you gave more value to the opinion of invisible editors than to the ArenaNet’s statements I have been throwing at you and that you fail to acknowledge.

Sorry Vayne, your assumptions cannot defeat my facts. The Manifesto is, and has always been, a lie.

I still maintain my interpretation of the manifesto is right. I’d love Colin to come on here and answer my question about who wrote it.

Colin’s probably reading this and going “what the heck?”.

Honestly, about time I finished taking a break. Dragons of Tarkir beckons . . . at least that has actual, well, dragons instead of punching bags to shoot with cannonfire.

Vayne.8563:

I still maintain my interpretation of the manifesto is right. I’d love Colin to come on here and answer my question about who wrote it.

Are you married?

I can see the scene, a few years after the marriage:

Vayne: “You know dear, I don’t think we’re married”

Partner: “What?!”

Vayne: “Our marriage was years ago, you can’t expect me to remember what I said that day”.

Partner: “We recorded it! You can watch right here!”

Vayne: “Still, I was just saying an intention, not necessarily what I was going to do.”

Partner: “You swore it!”

Vayne: “Maybe. But when I said ‘I do’, did I write that myself? Or did I read what someone else had written? You cannot hold me accountable for something I said that had been written by someone else. So, we’re not married. Bye.”

Test.8734:

Vayne.8563:

I still maintain my interpretation of the manifesto is right. I’d love Colin to come on here and answer my question about who wrote it.

Are you married?

I can see the scene, a few years after the marriage:

Vayne: “You know dear, I don’t think we’re married”

Partner: “What?!”

Vayne: “Our marriage was years ago, you can’t expect me to remember what I said that day”.

Partner: “We recorded it! You can watch right here!”

Vayne: “Still, I was just saying an intention, not necessarily what I was going to do.”

Partner: “You swore it!”

Vayne: “Maybe. But when I said ‘I do’, did I write that myself? Or did I read what someone else had written? You cannot hold me accountable for something I said that someone else had written. So, we’re not married. Bye.”

Nice hyperbole, but it doesn’t work like that in business. And anyone that has any experience would know it.

Promos are written by the writers or the advertising department. They are written and checked over, but it’s HIGHLY unlikely that they delved into every little nuance of every little word before it was read by the people writing it.

Anet marketing comes up with a promo, people READ the promo. What are the odds that at that time Colin sat down and had a deep discussion about what was meant by each line. Fans pour over this stuff like it’s some sort of holy writ. Developers sit down and say, yeah that sounds good, we’ll go with that. It’s really silly to think that they have deep discussions about every word of every add.

Now five years later, Colin is required to make a statement. He makes a statement. Do you think he tracked down the people who wrote it and asked what they meant?

Your attempt at humor is not really helpful to the conversation. Even, in the unlikely circumstance that Colin did have that conversation, do you now how many conversations he’s had since then.

No, I’d rather go with what Anet was saying at that time at conventions around the world. I remember what was said and I’m sure other people do.

You’re either conveniently forgetting it, or never saw those videos in the first place. Either way, it doesn’t make you right.

Vayne.8563:

Promos are written by the writers or the advertising department. They are written and checked over, but it’s HIGHLY unlikely that they delved into every little nuance of every little word before it was read by the people writing it.

In other words, Marketing gets to write whatever it wants, even if it’s something that is not in the game itself. Which means, it’s a lie. Ergo, the Manifesto is a lie.

Vayne.8563:

No, I’d rather go with what Anet was saying at that time at conventions around the world. I remember what was said and I’m sure other people do.

Sure. Prove it. I can show you links proving I’m right. Can you show me links to what ArenaNet would have said at conventions that would make you right?

(Nope, you can’t.)

Do you remember what you wrote above about people making assumptions and not being able to realize they’re assumptions? Well Vayne, it doesn’t get any worse than using “I’m sure other people agree with me” as your main argument.

Test.8734:

Vayne.8563:

Promos are written by the writers or the advertising department. They are written and checked over, but it’s HIGHLY unlikely that they delved into every little nuance of every little word before it was read by the people writing it.

In other words, Marketing gets to write whatever it wants, even if it’s something that is not in the game itself. Which means, it’s a lie. Ergo, the Manifesto is a lie.

Vayne.8563:

No, I’d rather go with what Anet was saying at that time at conventions around the world. I remember what was said and I’m sure other people do.

Sure. Prove it. I can show you links proving I’m right. Can you show me links to what ArenaNet would have said at conventions that would make you right?

(Nope, you can’t.)

Do you remember what you wrote above about people making assumptions and not being able to realize they’re assumptions? Well Vayne, it doesn’t get any worse than using “I’m sure other people agree with me” as your main argument.

Writing what you want isn’t necessarily a lie. Marketing doesn’t necessarily have all the nuances of what’s going on and sometimes doesn’t get it right.

Your’e saying anything that anyone says that isn’t right is a lie. That’s very unforgiving. I’m not making assumptions. I’m simply saying we don’t really know, so I’’ll give the benefit of the doubt. You’re making definitive statements.

And this absolutely the last time I’ll answer you because I’ve done my work here.

Vayne.8563:

And this absolutely the last time I’ll answer you because I’ve done my work here.

You completely ignored this:

Test.8734:

Vayne.8563:

No, I’d rather go with what Anet was saying at that time at conventions around the world. I remember what was said and I’m sure other people do.

Sure. Prove it. I can show you links proving I’m right. Can you show me links to what ArenaNet would have said at conventions that would make you right?

(Nope, you can’t.)

I’m waiting for the reply to that… Or are you just going to dodge it, since otherwise you would have to admit you have no evidence backing your assumptions, while I have provided plenty so far? Looks like the work you have done is limited to opinions and assumptions.

Vayne.8563:

Promos are written by the writers or the advertising department.

Per the specifications of the development and marketing team. Or are you going to tell me that each department just does its own thing and they never actually meaningfully communicate between one another?

Cause you know what, I could believe that considering messes like traits and SAB.

Vayne.8563:

Anet marketing comes up with a promo, people READ the promo. What are the odds that at that time Colin sat down and had a deep discussion about what was meant by each line.

Then they shouldn’t have called it a manifesto if they weren’t going to actually take it seriously.

Manifesto is not a word you throw around lightly thanks to certain events throughout history.

Vayne.8563:

Fans pour over this stuff like it’s some sort of holy writ.

Because it was called a kittening manifesto. What the hell do you expect with marketing like that? ANet basically walked out and declared they were going to change how the MMO world MMO’d!

Vayne.8563:

Now five years later, Colin is required to make a statement. He makes a statement. Do you think he tracked down the people who wrote it and asked what they meant?

Anything the writers write, they write for ANet. The position they write for, and what mean, they mean for ANet. What the writers meant is what Anet meant, and what ANet meant was what the writers meant.

So when Colin says “I’m going to clarify this position and tell you guys that the anti-grind philosophy refers to gear grind”, that’s ANet’s position, that’s the writer’s position.

The writers wrote it for the company. The writers weren’t going to write something that the company didn’t agree with. Not when ANet hyped it up by calling it a kittening manifesto.

You don’t call something a manifesto and then turn around and go “Yeah, you know, whatever.”

At least, not if you want to be taken seriously.

Vayne.8563:

Your attempt at humor is not really helpful to the conversation.

Vayne.8563:

Whether or not you find the game grindy, the forum is definitely a grind. lol

Oh yeah, but your attempt at humor; that was totally helpful to the conversation.

Vayne.8563:

No, I’d rather go with what Anet was saying at that time at conventions around the world. I remember what was said and I’m sure other people do.

Well, hey, if what they said back then is so much more important, then once again, ANet has still managed to break one of their selling points by introducing Ascended and taking away the ability of players to be in BiS gear by level 80.

Gene Archer.8560:

Vayne.8563:

Promos are written by the writers or the advertising department.

Per the specifications of the development and marketing team. Or are you going to tell me that each department just does its own thing and they never actually meaningfully communicate between one another?

Cause you know what, I could believe that considering messes like traits and SAB.

Vayne.8563:

Anet marketing comes up with a promo, people READ the promo. What are the odds that at that time Colin sat down and had a deep discussion about what was meant by each line.

Then they shouldn’t have called it a manifesto if they weren’t going to actually take it seriously.

Manifesto is not a word you throw around lightly thanks to certain events throughout history.

Vayne.8563:

Fans pour over this stuff like it’s some sort of holy writ.

Because it was called a kittening manifesto. What the hell do you expect with marketing like that? ANet basically walked out and declared they were going to change how the MMO world MMO’d!

Vayne.8563:

Now five years later, Colin is required to make a statement. He makes a statement. Do you think he tracked down the people who wrote it and asked what they meant?

Anything the writers write, they write for ANet. The position they write for, and what mean, they mean for ANet. What the writers meant is what Anet meant, and what ANet meant was what the writers meant.

So when Colin says “I’m going to clarify this position and tell you guys that the anti-grind philosophy refers to gear grind”, that’s ANet’s position, that’s the writer’s position.

The writers wrote it for the company. The writers weren’t going to write something that the company didn’t agree with. Not when ANet hyped it up by calling it a kittening manifesto.

You don’t call something a manifesto and then turn around and go “Yeah, you know, whatever.”

At least, not if you want to be taken seriously.

Vayne.8563:

Your attempt at humor is not really helpful to the conversation.

Vayne.8563:

Whether or not you find the game grindy, the forum is definitely a grind. lol

Oh yeah, but your attempt at humor; that was totally helpful to the conversation.

Vayne.8563:

No, I’d rather go with what Anet was saying at that time at conventions around the world. I remember what was said and I’m sure other people do.

Well, hey, if what they said back then is so much more important, then once again, ANet has still managed to break one of their selling points by introducing Ascended and taking away the ability of players to be in BiS gear by level 80.

Anet absolute changed direction when they brought out ascended gear. 100% true. So?

Sometimes you have to change direction. It doesn’t mean you intended to mislead nor does it make you a liar.

It’s entirely possible that Anet overreacted with the way ascended gear was introduced. Anet has always had a tendency to over-react.

Complaint: Prophecies is too long and slow moving.
Answer: Come out with Factions that you can Finish in a weekend and you fly through leveling.

Nightfall came out and they recorrrected again. I don’t know why anyone should be surprised.

ColinJohanson.2394:

- Grind: To us, grind means being required to do the same boring activity over and over again.

pdavis.8031:

So by the actual definition, and Anets definition, does crafting ascended require grind? No. Not in the slightest.

It is not possible to reliably pursue ascended gear for a character without doing the same boring task over and over again….the act of crafting itself. By Colin’s definition of the word, yes ascended is a grind.

Vayne.8563:

Anet absolute changed direction when they brought out ascended gear. 100% true. So?

So?

The fact they changed direction in the blink of an eye is the “So”!

They made this manifesto, made a kittening huge deal about it BY calling it a manifesto, and then they couldn’t even wait two kittening months before completely changing direction and leaving skid marks in the road while they were at, they turned so fast!

Vayne.8563:

Sometimes you have to change direction.

Sure. But maybe wait and see how that coat of paint looks dried before saying the wet application was a failure and dumping a different coat of paint on top of the still wet coat. Cause let me tell you, two wet coats of different colors creates a ton of issues down the road.

Much like what the snap decision implementation of Ascended did.

Vayne.8563:

It doesn’t mean you intended to mislead nor does it make you a liar.

But regardless of their intention, they still wound up misleading people because of it, and they have still failed to set things right to this day.

And I would argue it’s the failing to set it right again that creates the perception of lying.

Same applies to SAB, actually. But that’s a different topic, so I won’t harp on that past this.

Vayne.8563:

It’s entirely possible that Anet overreacted with the way ascended gear was introduced.

Entirely possible? No, no. They definitely overreacted and panicked. The haphazard implementation of Ascended is more than enough proof that they were just throwing darts blindly, hoping something would land even the tiniest inch close to the board.

Vayne.8563:

Anet has always had a tendency to over-react.

Blizzard suffers from that, too. It’s the reason their newest expansion is starting to catch really heavy flak from within the community.

ANet would do well not to make the same mistakes.

Vayne.8563:

Nightfall came out and they recorrrected again. I don’t know why anyone should be surprised.

They sure are dragging their kitten on re-correcting their overreaction with Ascended, seeing as it still remains crafting and RNG only.

Gene Archer.8560:

Vayne.8563:

Anet absolute changed direction when they brought out ascended gear. 100% true. So?

So?

The fact they changed direction in the blink of an eye is the “So”!

They made this manifesto, made a kittening huge deal about it BY calling it a manifesto, and then they couldn’t even wait two kittening months before completely changing direction and leaving skid marks in the road while they were at, they turned so fast!

Vayne.8563:

Sometimes you have to change direction.

Sure. But maybe wait and see how that coat of paint looks dried before saying the wet application was a failure and dumping a different coat of paint on top of the still wet coat. Cause let me tell you, two wet coats of different colors creates a ton of issues down the road.

Much like what the snap decision implementation of Ascended did.

Vayne.8563:

It doesn’t mean you intended to mislead nor does it make you a liar.

But regardless of their intention, they still wound up misleading people because of it, and they have still failed to set things right to this day.

And I would argue it’s the failing to set it right again that creates the perception of lying.

Same applies to SAB, actually. But that’s a different topic, so I won’t harp on that past this.

Vayne.8563:

It’s entirely possible that Anet overreacted with the way ascended gear was introduced.

Entirely possible? No, no. They definitely overreacted and panicked. The haphazard implementation of Ascended is more than enough proof that they were just throwing darts blindly, hoping something would land even the tiniest inch close to the board.

Vayne.8563:

Anet has always had a tendency to over-react.

Blizzard suffers from that, too. It’s the reason their newest expansion is starting to catch really heavy flak from within the community.

ANet would do well not to make the same mistakes.

Vayne.8563:

Nightfall came out and they recorrrected again. I don’t know why anyone should be surprised.

They sure are dragging their kitten on re-correcting their overreaction with Ascended, seeing as it still remains crafting and RNG only.

Listen to what you’re saying. That they changed direction “in the blink of an eye”. How do you know this? You don’t think there was serious debate and conversation, even resistence to these changes? You think Anet thinks with one mind and they all said, yeah, let’s kitten off our prime fan base. What is the liklihood of that?

How much more likely is that they made this game that cost millions and millions of dollars, they saw an alarming trend of people leaving, asked some questions, made some tough decisions and in spite of everything felt they had to make a choice.

I’d lay money that my interpretation is probably closer than yours.

Gene Archer.8560:

Vayne.8563:

Anet absolute changed direction when they brought out ascended gear. 100% true. So?

So?

The fact they changed direction in the blink of an eye is the “So”!

They made this manifesto, made a kittening huge deal about it BY calling it a manifesto, and then they couldn’t even wait two kittening months before completely changing direction and leaving skid marks in the road while they were at, they turned so fast!

Vayne.8563:

Sometimes you have to change direction.

Sure. But maybe wait and see how that coat of paint looks dried before saying the wet application was a failure and dumping a different coat of paint on top of the still wet coat. Cause let me tell you, two wet coats of different colors creates a ton of issues down the road.

Much like what the snap decision implementation of Ascended did.

Vayne.8563:

It doesn’t mean you intended to mislead nor does it make you a liar.

But regardless of their intention, they still wound up misleading people because of it, and they have still failed to set things right to this day.

And I would argue it’s the failing to set it right again that creates the perception of lying.

Same applies to SAB, actually. But that’s a different topic, so I won’t harp on that past this.

Vayne.8563:

It’s entirely possible that Anet overreacted with the way ascended gear was introduced.

Entirely possible? No, no. They definitely overreacted and panicked. The haphazard implementation of Ascended is more than enough proof that they were just throwing darts blindly, hoping something would land even the tiniest inch close to the board.

Vayne.8563:

Anet has always had a tendency to over-react.

Blizzard suffers from that, too. It’s the reason their newest expansion is starting to catch really heavy flak from within the community.

ANet would do well not to make the same mistakes.

Vayne.8563:

Nightfall came out and they recorrrected again. I don’t know why anyone should be surprised.

They sure are dragging their kitten on re-correcting their overreaction with Ascended, seeing as it still remains crafting and RNG only.

Whatever the reasoning behind it, it’s been a huge grind since they implemented it, it’s forced people of all walks to have to grind for mostly one material, it’s unevenly balanced, and it even requires players who are not normally crafters to now have to deal with the TP to get enough mats to do something they don’t like doing, it’s the crafting equivalent of forcing RPers or Casual players to dungeon. It’s wrong on all fronts and now that they have enough money coming in there’s no excuse not to fix it.

tigirius.9014:

Gene Archer.8560:

Vayne.8563:

Anet absolute changed direction when they brought out ascended gear. 100% true. So?

So?

The fact they changed direction in the blink of an eye is the “So”!

They made this manifesto, made a kittening huge deal about it BY calling it a manifesto, and then they couldn’t even wait two kittening months before completely changing direction and leaving skid marks in the road while they were at, they turned so fast!

Vayne.8563:

Sometimes you have to change direction.

Sure. But maybe wait and see how that coat of paint looks dried before saying the wet application was a failure and dumping a different coat of paint on top of the still wet coat. Cause let me tell you, two wet coats of different colors creates a ton of issues down the road.

Much like what the snap decision implementation of Ascended did.

Vayne.8563:

It doesn’t mean you intended to mislead nor does it make you a liar.

But regardless of their intention, they still wound up misleading people because of it, and they have still failed to set things right to this day.

And I would argue it’s the failing to set it right again that creates the perception of lying.

Same applies to SAB, actually. But that’s a different topic, so I won’t harp on that past this.

Vayne.8563:

It’s entirely possible that Anet overreacted with the way ascended gear was introduced.

Entirely possible? No, no. They definitely overreacted and panicked. The haphazard implementation of Ascended is more than enough proof that they were just throwing darts blindly, hoping something would land even the tiniest inch close to the board.

Vayne.8563:

Anet has always had a tendency to over-react.

Blizzard suffers from that, too. It’s the reason their newest expansion is starting to catch really heavy flak from within the community.

ANet would do well not to make the same mistakes.

Vayne.8563:

Nightfall came out and they recorrrected again. I don’t know why anyone should be surprised.

They sure are dragging their kitten on re-correcting their overreaction with Ascended, seeing as it still remains crafting and RNG only.

Whatever the reasoning behind it, it’s been a huge grind since they implemented it, it’s forced people of all walks to have to grind for mostly one material, it’s unevenly balanced, and it even requires players who are not normally crafters to now have to deal with the TP to get enough mats to do something they don’t like doing, it’s the crafting equivalent of forcing RPers or Casual players to dungeon. It’s wrong on all fronts and now that they have enough money coming in there’s no excuse not to fix it.

There are more ways to get ascended mats now than doing dungeons. In fact most people have too many ascended mats now. Some would say that is fixed.

Vayne.8563:

tigirius.9014:

Gene Archer.8560:

Vayne.8563:

Anet absolute changed direction when they brought out ascended gear. 100% true. So?

So?

The fact they changed direction in the blink of an eye is the “So”!

They made this manifesto, made a kittening huge deal about it BY calling it a manifesto, and then they couldn’t even wait two kittening months before completely changing direction and leaving skid marks in the road while they were at, they turned so fast!

Vayne.8563:

Sometimes you have to change direction.

Sure. But maybe wait and see how that coat of paint looks dried before saying the wet application was a failure and dumping a different coat of paint on top of the still wet coat. Cause let me tell you, two wet coats of different colors creates a ton of issues down the road.

Much like what the snap decision implementation of Ascended did.

Vayne.8563:

It doesn’t mean you intended to mislead nor does it make you a liar.

But regardless of their intention, they still wound up misleading people because of it, and they have still failed to set things right to this day.

And I would argue it’s the failing to set it right again that creates the perception of lying.

Same applies to SAB, actually. But that’s a different topic, so I won’t harp on that past this.

Vayne.8563:

It’s entirely possible that Anet overreacted with the way ascended gear was introduced.

Entirely possible? No, no. They definitely overreacted and panicked. The haphazard implementation of Ascended is more than enough proof that they were just throwing darts blindly, hoping something would land even the tiniest inch close to the board.

Vayne.8563:

Anet has always had a tendency to over-react.

Blizzard suffers from that, too. It’s the reason their newest expansion is starting to catch really heavy flak from within the community.

ANet would do well not to make the same mistakes.

Vayne.8563:

Nightfall came out and they recorrrected again. I don’t know why anyone should be surprised.

They sure are dragging their kitten on re-correcting their overreaction with Ascended, seeing as it still remains crafting and RNG only.

Whatever the reasoning behind it, it’s been a huge grind since they implemented it, it’s forced people of all walks to have to grind for mostly one material, it’s unevenly balanced, and it even requires players who are not normally crafters to now have to deal with the TP to get enough mats to do something they don’t like doing, it’s the crafting equivalent of forcing RPers or Casual players to dungeon. It’s wrong on all fronts and now that they have enough money coming in there’s no excuse not to fix it.

There are more ways to get ascended mats now than doing dungeons. In fact most people have too many ascended mats now. Some would say that is fixed.

Silk would like to have a word with you.

Vayne.8563:

Listen to what you’re saying. That they changed direction “in the blink of an eye”. How do you know this? You don’t think there was serious debate and conversation, even resistence to these changes? You think Anet thinks with one mind and they all said, yeah, let’s kitten off our prime fan base. What is the liklihood of that?

How much more likely is that they made this game that cost millions and millions of dollars, they saw an alarming trend of people leaving, asked some questions, made some tough decisions and in spite of everything felt they had to make a choice.

I’d lay money that my interpretation is probably closer than yours.

I think that the, “blink of an eye,” bit might be relative. The game took several years to develop but that change was decided upon within a very few months of launch. Not a literal blink of an eye, but very quick.

tigirius.9014:

Vayne.8563:

tigirius.9014:

Gene Archer.8560:

Vayne.8563:

Anet absolute changed direction when they brought out ascended gear. 100% true. So?

So?

The fact they changed direction in the blink of an eye is the “So”!

They made this manifesto, made a kittening huge deal about it BY calling it a manifesto, and then they couldn’t even wait two kittening months before completely changing direction and leaving skid marks in the road while they were at, they turned so fast!

Vayne.8563:

Sometimes you have to change direction.

Sure. But maybe wait and see how that coat of paint looks dried before saying the wet application was a failure and dumping a different coat of paint on top of the still wet coat. Cause let me tell you, two wet coats of different colors creates a ton of issues down the road.

Much like what the snap decision implementation of Ascended did.

Vayne.8563:

It doesn’t mean you intended to mislead nor does it make you a liar.

But regardless of their intention, they still wound up misleading people because of it, and they have still failed to set things right to this day.

And I would argue it’s the failing to set it right again that creates the perception of lying.

Same applies to SAB, actually. But that’s a different topic, so I won’t harp on that past this.

Vayne.8563:

It’s entirely possible that Anet overreacted with the way ascended gear was introduced.

Entirely possible? No, no. They definitely overreacted and panicked. The haphazard implementation of Ascended is more than enough proof that they were just throwing darts blindly, hoping something would land even the tiniest inch close to the board.

Vayne.8563:

Anet has always had a tendency to over-react.

Blizzard suffers from that, too. It’s the reason their newest expansion is starting to catch really heavy flak from within the community.

ANet would do well not to make the same mistakes.

Vayne.8563:

Nightfall came out and they recorrrected again. I don’t know why anyone should be surprised.

They sure are dragging their kitten on re-correcting their overreaction with Ascended, seeing as it still remains crafting and RNG only.

Whatever the reasoning behind it, it’s been a huge grind since they implemented it, it’s forced people of all walks to have to grind for mostly one material, it’s unevenly balanced, and it even requires players who are not normally crafters to now have to deal with the TP to get enough mats to do something they don’t like doing, it’s the crafting equivalent of forcing RPers or Casual players to dungeon. It’s wrong on all fronts and now that they have enough money coming in there’s no excuse not to fix it.

There are more ways to get ascended mats now than doing dungeons. In fact most people have too many ascended mats now. Some would say that is fixed.

Silk would like to have a word with you.

Silk isn’t an ascended mat. And you certainly don’t have to run dungeons for silk.

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Listen to what you’re saying. That they changed direction “in the blink of an eye”. How do you know this? You don’t think there was serious debate and conversation, even resistence to these changes? You think Anet thinks with one mind and they all said, yeah, let’s kitten off our prime fan base. What is the liklihood of that?

How much more likely is that they made this game that cost millions and millions of dollars, they saw an alarming trend of people leaving, asked some questions, made some tough decisions and in spite of everything felt they had to make a choice.

I’d lay money that my interpretation is probably closer than yours.

I think that the, “blink of an eye,” bit might be relative. The game took several years to develop but that change was decided upon within a very few months of launch. Not a literal blink of an eye, but very quick.

Sure it was decided when the game looked like it was flagging so soon after launch. I was on the forums back then and every post was a post about nothing to do. They needed to change something that they could implement quickly that would take a long time…at least I’m thinking that’s how the conversation went.

Sure we could make a new dungeon…but it would take a few months and after people beat it you’d be back to square one.

Ascended stuff fit the bill, at the time. And I don’t like it any more than anyone else. I’ve never liked ascended gear and I’ve never been a proponent of it. But I can certainly see why the company would have gone there.

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Listen to what you’re saying. That they changed direction “in the blink of an eye”. How do you know this? You don’t think there was serious debate and conversation, even resistence to these changes? You think Anet thinks with one mind and they all said, yeah, let’s kitten off our prime fan base. What is the liklihood of that?

How much more likely is that they made this game that cost millions and millions of dollars, they saw an alarming trend of people leaving, asked some questions, made some tough decisions and in spite of everything felt they had to make a choice.

I’d lay money that my interpretation is probably closer than yours.

I think that the, “blink of an eye,” bit might be relative. The game took several years to develop but that change was decided upon within a very few months of launch. Not a literal blink of an eye, but very quick.

Sure it was decided when the game looked like it was flagging so soon after launch. I was on the forums back then and every post was a post about nothing to do. They needed to change something that they could implement quickly that would take a long time…at least I’m thinking that’s how the conversation went.

Sure we could make a new dungeon…but it would take a few months and after people beat it you’d be back to square one.

Ascended stuff fit the bill, at the time. And I don’t like it any more than anyone else. I’ve never liked ascended gear and I’ve never been a proponent of it. But I can certainly see why the company would have gone there.

I was on the forums back then too. There were a number of posts about nothing to do. A vocal minority of posts/posters. As we have been told many times (by posters active in this thread) the forums represent a minority of players who are not representative of the player base as a whole.

All I am saying is that a 180 degree change a couple of months after launch of a game that had been in development for several years might not be a literal blink of an eye, but the phrase does describe the situation fairly well.

Vayne.8563:

Listen to what you’re saying. That they changed direction “in the blink of an eye”. How do you know this?

If in the video game industry one year is barely any time at all, then how long could two months possibly be? Thus, the blink of an eye.

Vayne.8563:

You don’t think there was serious debate and conversation, even resistence to these changes?

I really don’t, no. Because serious debate usually doesn’t happen when you’re panicking. Which they very much did.

Vayne.8563:

You think Anet thinks with one mind and they all said, yeah, let’s kitten off our prime fan base. What is the liklihood of that?

And yet they still went through with it! I don’t care whether their intention was to kitten off their prime fan base or not. The fact of the matter is that they did just that!

I mean, I don’t know about you, but I remember the firestorm it created. I remember the Ascended thread. I remember the pages upon pages of people who begged Anet not to go through with this.

And I remember ANet going through with it anyway in its messy form and just tossing that thread into the recycle bin.

Vayne.8563:

How much more likely is that they made this game that cost millions and millions of dollars, they saw an alarming trend of people leaving, asked some questions, made some tough decisions and in spite of everything felt they had to make a choice.

So then why not make a different choice? Do you really expect me to believe that Ascended was their only choice? That somehow, they were so incompetent that the only choice they could make is the laziest choice that all other MMOs have relied on to this day?

And once again, now that things are supposedly better, why not, oh I don’t know…fix Ascended so that we can go back to having that game where BiS gear was an easy process for everyone, casual or otherwise?

Vayne.8563:

I’d lay money that my interpretation is probably closer than yours.

I don’t care what you’d lay money on.

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Listen to what you’re saying. That they changed direction “in the blink of an eye”. How do you know this? You don’t think there was serious debate and conversation, even resistence to these changes? You think Anet thinks with one mind and they all said, yeah, let’s kitten off our prime fan base. What is the liklihood of that?

How much more likely is that they made this game that cost millions and millions of dollars, they saw an alarming trend of people leaving, asked some questions, made some tough decisions and in spite of everything felt they had to make a choice.

I’d lay money that my interpretation is probably closer than yours.

I think that the, “blink of an eye,” bit might be relative. The game took several years to develop but that change was decided upon within a very few months of launch. Not a literal blink of an eye, but very quick.

Sure it was decided when the game looked like it was flagging so soon after launch. I was on the forums back then and every post was a post about nothing to do. They needed to change something that they could implement quickly that would take a long time…at least I’m thinking that’s how the conversation went.

Sure we could make a new dungeon…but it would take a few months and after people beat it you’d be back to square one.

Ascended stuff fit the bill, at the time. And I don’t like it any more than anyone else. I’ve never liked ascended gear and I’ve never been a proponent of it. But I can certainly see why the company would have gone there.

I was on the forums back then too. There were a number of posts about nothing to do. A vocal minority of posts/posters. As we have been told many times (by posters active in this thread) the forums represent a minority of players who are not representative of the player base as a whole.

All I am saying is that a 180 degree change a couple of months after launch of a game that had been in development for several years might not be a literal blink of an eye, but the phrase does describe the situation fairly well.

We have no idea what the majority or minority is. Anet has a kitten ed good idea of how many people stopped logging in. Why is this is hard for people to get.

They invested millions in a game, they saw people stop logging in ( and I believe that’s the case because I could see it back then) and they made the changes THEY thought were necessary.

They may have been right and they may have been wrong but I can’t imagine that made those decisions easily. They made them relatively fast, because their game was at stake.

Gene Archer.8560:

Vayne.8563:

Listen to what you’re saying. That they changed direction “in the blink of an eye”. How do you know this?

If in the video game industry one year is barely any time at all, then how long could two months possibly be? Thus, the blink of an eye.

Vayne.8563:

You don’t think there was serious debate and conversation, even resistence to these changes?

I really don’t, no. Because serious debate usually doesn’t happen when you’re panicking. Which they very much did.

Vayne.8563:

You think Anet thinks with one mind and they all said, yeah, let’s kitten off our prime fan base. What is the liklihood of that?

And yet they still went through with it! I don’t care whether their intention was to kitten off their prime fan base or not. The fact of the matter is that they did just that!

I mean, I don’t know about you, but I remember the firestorm it created. I remember the Ascended thread. I remember the pages upon pages of people who begged Anet not to go through with this.

And I remember ANet going through with it anyway in its messy form and just tossing that thread into the recycle bin.

Vayne.8563:

How much more likely is that they made this game that cost millions and millions of dollars, they saw an alarming trend of people leaving, asked some questions, made some tough decisions and in spite of everything felt they had to make a choice.

So then why not make a different choice? Do you really expect me to believe that Ascended was their only choice? That somehow, they were so incompetent that the only choice they could make is the laziest choice that all other MMOs have relied on to this day?

And once again, now that things are supposedly better, why not, oh I don’t know…fix Ascended so that we can go back to having that game where BiS gear was an easy process for everyone, casual or otherwise?

Vayne.8563:

I’d lay money that my interpretation is probably closer than yours.

I don’t care what you’d lay money on.

One year is barely any time in game development. But that’s not the entire video game industry.

Games have a business plan and a timetable. If they have more than an expected drop off in player base, that one year is a VERY long time. We’re not talking about game development we’re talking about game sales now and game longevity. Saying a year isn’t long related to that shows a complete lack of understanding of the industry. Hell most games sell 90% of the copies they EVER sell in the first three months of launch.

Anet launched the game they saw a huge fall off and if you do nothing then, and you wait a year, you end up with no game. You may not agree with what Anet did, but that doesn’t really matter, because it wasn’t your millions of dollars at stake.

They saw something needed to be done and waiting a year to do it would have gutted the game completely. I’m glad you’re not in charge, or I might not even be playing this game now.

Vayne.8563:

We have no idea what the majority or minority is. Anet has a kitten ed good idea of how many people stopped logging in. Why is this is hard for people to get

I did not claim otherwise.

Back to the topic of grind:

I have been playing GW2 since launch, two and half years ago, actively pursuing BiS gear on a daily basis and do not as of yet have a single piece of ascended armor or weapon for any of my characters.

I have not played any other game where a comparable situation has been the case.

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

We have no idea what the majority or minority is. Anet has a kitten ed good idea of how many people stopped logging in. Why is this is hard for people to get

I did not claim otherwise.

But that’s my point. Companies don’t make huge decisions like this without compelling evidence. We don’t get to see that evidence. If it were happening back then, it’s hardly the thing a company would announce.

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

We have no idea what the majority or minority is. Anet has a kitten ed good idea of how many people stopped logging in. Why is this is hard for people to get

I did not claim otherwise.

But that’s my point. Companies don’t make huge decisions like this without compelling evidence. We don’t get to see that evidence. If it were happening back then, it’s hardly the thing a company would announce.

Companies do (sometimes) act on opinions and gut feelings without solid evidence. This is particularly true of smaller companies with power focused in a single individual. Sometimes this produces amazing results according to the individual’s, “great instincts,” other times not so much.

I am not denying that Anet had their reasons. Perhaps this was a matter of tons of evidence. Perhaps it was someone going with their gut.

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

We have no idea what the majority or minority is. Anet has a kitten ed good idea of how many people stopped logging in. Why is this is hard for people to get

I did not claim otherwise.

But that’s my point. Companies don’t make huge decisions like this without compelling evidence. We don’t get to see that evidence. If it were happening back then, it’s hardly the thing a company would announce.

I’d argue the fall-off was mostly post-ascended. Maybe not because of it, but more likely because of continual mistakes they’ve made. Let’s face it, no matter how pretty your game is or how well you tell a story, mistakes and bugs that continue to plague the game tend to cause people to drop off faster.

There is plenty of evidence the studio is less than nicely organized and it’s priorities aren’t very well-thought out. Those things are reflected in the game and also, oddly enough in the silent treatment we still tend to receive for the mountains of feedback they get.

So, it’s not just that they added and changed things no-one wanted, it’s that the game is still plagued with bugged events, animations, skill-lag, exploits, traits and sigils that don’t proc correctly and so on. You can even go back to the first Halloween and all the complaints about not being able to witness the destruction of the statue, yet they didn’t have the foresight to immediately work on LS S1 to be a repeatable thing.

People are frustrated with the game, ascended grind is just a part of it that people can latch on to. Even if it’s at the low-end of the list of complaints, since it’s not required.

EDIT: I forgot to add fall-damage down a slope, which for me is a horrendous bug that has been in game since beta. Looks like they are FINALLY fixing that…

Anyone who believes anything Anet says in regards to grind never played GW1 or observed the transition from the brilliant game that started out as to the grind fest GWAMM chase it became. I wouldn’t trust Anet as far as I could throw them in this regard.

Fool me once, shame on you….

fireflyry.7023:

Anyone who believes anything Anet says in regards to grind never played GW1 or observed the transition from the brilliant game that started out as to the grind fest GWAMM chase it became. I wouldn’t trust Anet as far as I could throw them in this regard.

Fool me once, shame on you….

Except GWAMM was nothing more than an optional title. Heck, you could get at least 25/30 just by playing through once in normal mode and once in hard mode and a bit of vanquishing/skill capture.

Ok test. Let me try this again.
Please answer the following questions in no more than a single sentence, and please provide at least 1 link to confirm your answer.

After I have recieved your answers, I’ll make my point then let you have the last word on the matter. As I don’t believe that either of us will see each others point of view. You’ll believe what you want, I’ll believe what I want, and at the end of the day, we’ll both go back to playing the game and enjoying ourselves.

Are there enemies in the game that do not provide the regular materials (or the means to aquire said materials) needed to craft Ascended armor of any weight? (excluding World Bosses and world boss “adds”)

How many methods are there for aquiring ascended crafting materials? (i.e. Bloodstone dust, Empyreal fragments, dragonite ore)

Which game mode (i.e. open world PvE, dungeons, WvW, PvP, EotM, etc.) does not provide the materials (ascended or otherwise) needed to craft ascended armor?

Which game mode do I have no choice but to participate in in order to craft ascended armor? (not counting crafting, as it’s kind of a key component?)

Which game mode does not provide any in-game money?

Which activities in the game do not provide any in-game money?

Am I barred from crafting ascended armor if I choose not to participate in any particular game mode at any time?

Am I required to participate in any particular game mode, do specific events, or kill specific enemies in order to craft ascended?

Am I required (having no choice) to do anything in-game repeatedly without variation in order to craft ascended armor? (i.e. kill specific enemies, do specific events, etc.)

Note: Please. We all know that this game, as well as any other MMO in the history of MMOs does have a repetitive nature. Repeating content is VERY different from grinding. The former is simply because there is only so much one can do. The latter is being stuck in a single event chain, or area with no option to leave because there is no other way to progress. And progression in this context refers to crafting ascended armor, and aquiring materials.

thehipone.6812:

Except GWAMM was nothing more than an optional title. Heck, you could get at least 25/30 just by playing through once in normal mode and once in hard mode and a bit of vanquishing/skill capture.

I wouldn’t call the entirety of the four games a ‘bit’.

Ashen.2907:

I have been playing GW2 since launch, two and half years ago, actively pursuing BiS gear on a daily basis and do not as of yet have a single piece of ascended armor or weapon for any of my characters.

I have not played any other game where a comparable situation has been the case.

I hate to say it Ashen, but I think you might be doing something wrong. I too have been playing since launch, not that that’s when ascended crafting came out but just to highlight I too have put some time into the game. I have only been crafting ascended on a casual basis as and when I am in the mood or have the mats or the gold to get the mats. So far I have the following ascended crafted gear: sword, dagger, chest armour, leggings, mask, shoulders and back item. I also have full ascended trinkets on two chars.

I have crafted 7 ascended items, and bought about 12-13 trinkets with laurals across 3 chars, and I have not really been that active in pursuing it. I am sure that if I was more focused on it I would have fully geared out two or three chars by now. I’ve even had about 3 ascended items drop from champ chests and I have only run with champ trains about 4 or 5 times in total, mainly because I get bored of them quickly. Ascended aquisition is not as grindy as people make out, and it is getting less and less grindy as the game progresses.

pdavis.8031:

Am I required (having no choice) to do anything in-game repeatedly without variation in order to craft ascended armor? (i.e. kill specific enemies, do specific events, etc.)

Yes you are.

You cannot craft ascended armor without engaging in a boring repetitive task….leveling your crafting skills and using the crafting system.

Sure gathering the mats can be done at your own pace while doing other things, but actually producing the end result requires, according to Anet’s definition of the word, a grind.

Rin.1046:

Ashen.2907:

I have been playing GW2 since launch, two and half years ago, actively pursuing BiS gear on a daily basis and do not as of yet have a single piece of ascended armor or weapon for any of my characters.

I have not played any other game where a comparable situation has been the case.

I hate to say it Ashen, but I think you might be doing something wrong. I too have been playing since launch, not that that’s when ascended crafting came out but just to highlight I too have put some time into the game. I have only been crafting ascended on a casual basis as and when I am in the mood or have the mats or the gold to get the mats. So far I have the following ascended crafted gear: sword, dagger, chest armour, leggings, mask, shoulders and back item. I also have full ascended trinkets on two chars.

I have crafted 7 ascended items, and bought about 12-13 trinkets with laurals across 3 chars, and I have not really been that active in pursuing it. I am sure that if I was more focused on it I would have fully geared out two or three chars by now. I’ve even had about 3 ascended items drop from champ chests and I have only run with champ trains about 4 or 5 times in total, mainly because I get bored of them quickly. Ascended aquisition is not as grindy as people make out, and it is getting less and less grindy as the game progresses.

Crafting is a boring, repetitive grind for me. It is not play, but rather a tedious work for which I am not paid.

Ashen.2907:

pdavis.8031:

Am I required (having no choice) to do anything in-game repeatedly without variation in order to craft ascended armor? (i.e. kill specific enemies, do specific events, etc.)

Yes you are.

You cannot craft ascended armor without engaging in a boring repetitive task….leveling your crafting skills and using the crafting system.

Sure gathering the mats can be done at your own pace while doing other things, but actually producing the end result requires, according to Anet’s definition of the word, a grind.

So the act of crafting itself is a grind?

I also stated on another question that crafting is exluded as it is needed to CRAFT ascended gear. If you are refusing to actually use the crafting mechanic because its “grindy” then yes there is no way you are going to be able to CRAFT ascended gear.

However, with crafting itself, there is also a bunch of variety. I don’t need to craft solely X amount of A and X amount of B. I can choose to do that, however, I can discover new recipes, craft some of Y, some of D and some of L if I wanted to, and still be able to level up my crafting.

Thats like saying its a grind to have to log in every day to get the login rewards, or that it is a grind to use WPs, or a grind to have to run across the map, or a grind to hit the 1 button when attacking. Thats just being intentially obtuse about it.

pdavis.8031:

So the act of crafting itself is a grind?

I also stated on another question that crafting is exluded as it is needed to CRAFT ascended gear. If you are refusing to actually use the crafting mechanic because its “grindy” then yes there is no way you are going to be able to CRAFT ascended gear..

Exactly so.

Getting ascended gear is gated behind a grind, ergo there is a grind for character progression, BiS gear, in GW2.

Excluding a grind from consideration of whether or not grind is needed for progression specifically because it is needed for that progression is ludicrous.

Life is a grind : every morning you have to shower or you can’t stay clean for a long time.
Soccer is a grind : you have to score goals every game if you want to win, not just once for the whole season.
Sleeping is a grind : you need to sleep everyday to get mana, you can’t even sleep more and have extra energy for a week.
Logically grinding games are a good representation of an alternate reality

I mean if you want to see grind you can see it everywhere, even in forum posting.

Ashen.2907:

pdavis.8031:

So the act of crafting itself is a grind?

I also stated on another question that crafting is exluded as it is needed to CRAFT ascended gear. If you are refusing to actually use the crafting mechanic because its “grindy” then yes there is no way you are going to be able to CRAFT ascended gear..

Exactly so.

Getting ascended gear is gated behind a grind, ergo there is a grind for character progression, BiS gear, in GW2.

Excluding a grind from consideration of whether or not grind is needed for progression specifically because it is needed for that progression is ludicrous.

But that begs the question, is crafting itself a grind? Can I go to a crafting station upon occasion, craft a few items, increase my crafting level a little bit, then go about my merry way? Absolutely. Do I need to spend hours at the crafting station crafting everything at once in order to level my crafting? Nope. Do I need to revist the crafting station every so often? Sure. But thats not a grind. Again, repeatable content doesn’t equal a grind.

It is “ludicrous” to assume that a single component in the process that needs to be revisted upon occassion can be considered a grind.

If this is the only argument that crafting ascended is indeed a grind, then I believe I have made my point, that crafting ascended is not grindy, and can be done through normal means of playing the game. It is a VERY weak argument that really doesn’t hold up at all.

Vayne.8563:

Silk isn’t an ascended mat. And you certainly don’t have to run dungeons for silk.

It’s effectively an ascended mat because you need 300 scraps of it for one bolt of damask. Damask is required for all ascended pieces. I have ascended mats coming out my ears. The limiting factor in my obtaining a full ascended set right now is the silk. Honestly, when most of us say that we’re required to grind for ascended gear, silk acquisition is at the heart of that grind.

pdavis.8031:

Ok test. Let me try this again.
Please answer the following questions in no more than a single sentence, and please provide at least 1 link to confirm your answer.

After I have recieved your answers, I’ll make my point then let you have the last word on the matter. As I don’t believe that either of us will see each others point of view. You’ll believe what you want, I’ll believe what I want, and at the end of the day, we’ll both go back to playing the game and enjoying ourselves.

Are there enemies in the game that do not provide the regular materials (or the means to aquire said materials) needed to craft Ascended armor of any weight? (excluding World Bosses and world boss “adds”)

How many methods are there for aquiring ascended crafting materials? (i.e. Bloodstone dust, Empyreal fragments, dragonite ore)

Which game mode (i.e. open world PvE, dungeons, WvW, PvP, EotM, etc.) does not provide the materials (ascended or otherwise) needed to craft ascended armor?

Which game mode do I have no choice but to participate in in order to craft ascended armor? (not counting crafting, as it’s kind of a key component?)

Which game mode does not provide any in-game money?

Which activities in the game do not provide any in-game money?

You’re asking the wrong questions. The one to ask is, which game mode provides 7200+ silk scraps in less than a year without any grinding? When I get the answer to that I’ll acknowledge that there is no need to grind for ascended gear.

pdavis.8031:

Am I barred from crafting ascended armor if I choose not to participate in any particular game mode at any time?

If you want to get your ascended armor sometime in the next couple of years, then yes.

pdavis.8031:

Am I required to participate in any particular game mode, do specific events, or kill specific enemies in order to craft ascended?

Am I required (having no choice) to do anything in-game repeatedly without variation in order to craft ascended armor? (i.e. kill specific enemies, do specific events, etc.)

Yes. You’re required to run champ trains, farm silverwastes, or WvW in order to get the champ bags required to generate 7200+ scraps of silk and/or collect the 172 gold required to buy all that silk.

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Listen to what you’re saying. That they changed direction “in the blink of an eye”. How do you know this? You don’t think there was serious debate and conversation, even resistence to these changes? You think Anet thinks with one mind and they all said, yeah, let’s kitten off our prime fan base. What is the liklihood of that?

How much more likely is that they made this game that cost millions and millions of dollars, they saw an alarming trend of people leaving, asked some questions, made some tough decisions and in spite of everything felt they had to make a choice.

I’d lay money that my interpretation is probably closer than yours.

I think that the, “blink of an eye,” bit might be relative. The game took several years to develop but that change was decided upon within a very few months of launch. Not a literal blink of an eye, but very quick.

Sure it was decided when the game looked like it was flagging so soon after launch. I was on the forums back then and every post was a post about nothing to do. They needed to change something that they could implement quickly that would take a long time…at least I’m thinking that’s how the conversation went.

Sure we could make a new dungeon…but it would take a few months and after people beat it you’d be back to square one.

Ascended stuff fit the bill, at the time. And I don’t like it any more than anyone else. I’ve never liked ascended gear and I’ve never been a proponent of it. But I can certainly see why the company would have gone there.

I was on the forums back then too. There were a number of posts about nothing to do. A vocal minority of posts/posters. As we have been told many times (by posters active in this thread) the forums represent a minority of players who are not representative of the player base as a whole.

All I am saying is that a 180 degree change a couple of months after launch of a game that had been in development for several years might not be a literal blink of an eye, but the phrase does describe the situation fairly well.

“There were a number of posts about nothing to do.” That is not the same as asking for grind!
And while I did see many complains about the game being boring (what if people could have hunt down cosmetics in stead of grinding for them? Who knows maybe less people would have considered the game boring? Maybe many of those people left and will come and have a look again with HoT) there was no outcry for grind or a gear treadmill or anything of that kind.

“As we have been told many times (by posters active in this thread) the forums represent a minority of players who are not representative of the player base as a whole.” While they are probably not a perfect representation of the whole player base it for sure gives an idea of how a lager portion of the players (and old players) do feel.

Bernie.8674:

Yes. You’re required to run champ trains, farm silverwastes, or WvW in order to get the champ bags required to generate 7200+ scraps of silk and/or collect the 172 gold required to buy all that silk.

Which means silk has several sources that are linked to several activities in the game.

Sorry but you are basically saying that you have to play the game to get the rewards from it… but in fact no you forgot that you can also use real money to get gold.

Bernie.8674:

pdavis.8031:

Ok test. Let me try this again.
Please answer the following questions in no more than a single sentence, and please provide at least 1 link to confirm your answer.

After I have recieved your answers, I’ll make my point then let you have the last word on the matter. As I don’t believe that either of us will see each others point of view. You’ll believe what you want, I’ll believe what I want, and at the end of the day, we’ll both go back to playing the game and enjoying ourselves.

Are there enemies in the game that do not provide the regular materials (or the means to aquire said materials) needed to craft Ascended armor of any weight? (excluding World Bosses and world boss “adds”)

How many methods are there for aquiring ascended crafting materials? (i.e. Bloodstone dust, Empyreal fragments, dragonite ore)

Which game mode (i.e. open world PvE, dungeons, WvW, PvP, EotM, etc.) does not provide the materials (ascended or otherwise) needed to craft ascended armor?

Which game mode do I have no choice but to participate in in order to craft ascended armor? (not counting crafting, as it’s kind of a key component?)

Which game mode does not provide any in-game money?

Which activities in the game do not provide any in-game money?

You’re asking the wrong questions. The one to ask is, which game mode provides 7200+ silk scraps in less than a year without any grinding? When I get the answer to that I’ll acknowledge that there is no need to grind for ascended gear.

pdavis.8031:

Am I barred from crafting ascended armor if I choose not to participate in any particular game mode at any time?

If you want to get your ascended armor sometime in the next couple of years, then yes.

pdavis.8031:

Am I required to participate in any particular game mode, do specific events, or kill specific enemies in order to craft ascended?

Am I required (having no choice) to do anything in-game repeatedly without variation in order to craft ascended armor? (i.e. kill specific enemies, do specific events, etc.)

Yes. You’re required to run champ trains, farm silverwastes, or WvW in order to get the champ bags required to generate 7200+ scraps of silk and/or collect the 172 gold required to buy all that silk.

So by setting a time limit on getting the materials needed to what makes it a grind.

I am not required to do champ trains, silverwastes, no WvW in order to get silk, or the gold needed. I can do a myriad of other in-game activities and generate gold and/or materials needed without ever doing any of those things.

No the grind that is percieved is entirely player generated. Anet has put in multiple ways to get the materials needed to craft ascended, and none of which requires me to repeat it any more than I want to.

No these aren’t the wrong questions. These are the right questions. Ones that the grindy crowd won’t answer to prove their point. These are the questions that need to be answered to determine whether or not there is an Anet imposed grind or not.

pdavis.8031:

No the grind that is percieved is entirely player generated. Anet has put in multiple ways to get the materials needed to craft ascended, and none of which requires me to repeat it any more than I want to.

If you want the material in the quantities that are required, then you do have to repeat. Popping between game modes takes time, and that time prevents you from getting the required silk. Sure, I can pop into activities here and there and come out with 100 scraps by the end of the week, but at that rate I’m not going to put together an ascended set for another year and a half.

Here’s another gem from the manifesto:

It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.

Sorry, but collecting scraps for a year and a half counts as preparing to have fun in my book.

Crafting may or may not be experienced as a grind, but it sure is kitten-awful boring. The level 1-400 stuff is bad enough, but the whole Ascended process with needing a list or a spreadsheet to keep track of the mass of virtual crap needed to create one piece is over the top. Does anyone actually like the crafting process itself, or do people just put up with it because they want the product?

I can honestly say that the only MMO activities I can remember that were more boring than GW2 crafting was harvesting in one of the Korean F2P grinders (might have been Last Chaos, but don’t quote me) or leveling a skill up by sitting in an outpost using it for hours at a time in another (might have been 9 Dragons).

After all of the discussion, what it boils down to is activities needed to be engaged in in order to obtain a desirable result that people find boring. GW2 may or may not have grind, but it sure does have some boring aspects to obtaining rewards.