Guild Wars 2

Guildwars2 is turning into Gaiawars2 (And if anyone has recently been to that site, they’ll understand wholly my basis for that statement) /o\ .

Seven Star Stalker.1740:

Guildwars2 is turning into Gaiawars2 (And if anyone has recently been to that site, they’ll understand wholly my basis for that statement) /o\ .

Which site, there’s the book one the forums one and the facebook one?

I’ve been talking to people in game today. Most people I talk to don’t even know people are annoyed about something. lol

tigirius.9014:

Seven Star Stalker.1740:

Guildwars2 is turning into Gaiawars2 (And if anyone has recently been to that site, they’ll understand wholly my basis for that statement) /o\ .

Which site, there’s the book one the forums one and the facebook one?

Gaia online.

The vocal minority typically saves the silent majority the headache of poorly thought out features.

Seeing the forums have great ideas but hidden in swears, cries and what have you.

Anet should allow the forum community to vote on player champions that might have access to special forum for discussions of changes or updates. Gather people who have experience with the game in many aspects and avoid all the clutter of…Class X OP or this game is ghay.

Vayne.8563:

Almost all the issues that are coming up, again and again, are coming up due to lack of proper communication on Anet’s part.

That and the lack of a decent search function.

Lynne.8416:

So you want a list of things they are working on and updated monthly.

Sounds like a nice idea.

Pifil.5193:

The Planetside 2 roadmap is a good example of the kind of thing I’d like to see from them. Planetside 2 is a different beast but I’d like to see roadmaps for WvW, sPvP, open world PVE, dungeons and fractals.

In reality though, ArenaNet seem to be making very slow progress on these fronts so I don’t see how much they can actually tell us.

From outside they appear to be making slow progress… the alternative is that a lot of work get’s thrown out internally for some reason or another (which I guess would be kinda sad).

Valandil Dragonhart.2371:

Whenever anet representatives or devs talk, it’s like their head is on the chopping block. They’re only words but I can feel the nervousness in their indecision on what to say.

Face it, communication isn’t their strong suit, hasn’t been since launch and probably will never be.

There was a time when we’d get a message or two a few times a week.

Nick.6972:

You know, if they were to come out and say that they’re currently working on Cantha expansion, without releasing absolutely no additional information, people would easily get extremely hyped.
I bet, this alone would bring tons of people back to the game.

If Cantha is the draw, why would they return before Cantha is released?

pigdog.9215:

I find it funny how the guild wars 2 community is probably one of the nicest gaming communities but arenanet managed to upset them pretty badly.

Most of the unhappy people are just unhappy people unfortunately.

VergilDeZaniah.3295:

Or maybe a grapnel to go over the keep walls…

As I’m sitting on 99% world completion on one of my alts, I’d love something that could quickly pop me over those unassailable walls (because Aurora Glade just ain’t doing that good right now). So I’m all for this idea

pelle ossa.9705:

Anet don’t want to talk to us anymore , they only want to talk with our money…..

Me and my money actually have a pretty close relationship, and my money hasn’t said anything to me about it… Although it might just be that my money doesn’t want me to get jealous or something.

Im Mudbone.1437:

+1 Vayne. Although, I do have to say, their silence has spoken volumes and will be extremely hard to retract.

Never actually found much in the way of value in silence myself. Silence tends to have the bad habit of being filled with people’s self projections. Although it does make for wonderful speculations.

Vayne.8563:

I’ve been talking to people in game today. Most people I talk to don’t even know people are annoyed about something. lol

Yeah, there’s this massive disconnect between the forums and the in-game community. I tend to see this especially around patch time when no one in my guild really knows about the patches whereas I’ve experienced hours of debate, discussion and speculation.

Clear.8512:

Seeing the forums have great ideas but hidden in swears, cries and what have you.

Anet should allow the forum community to vote on player champions that might have access to special forum for discussions of changes or updates. Gather people who have experience with the game in many aspects and avoid all the clutter of…Class X OP or this game is ghay.

Yeah sounds like a good idea, but I maybe recognize like 1 or 2 names, pretty sure no one recognizes me. What I’m saying is, how effectively would we be able to pick a random person from a random pool of names.

When you make changes to a large degree, then yes there needs to be some recognition of input.

Yes, people will take your statements out of context, they will make unreasonable demands, and they may never be happy.

But it has to be done to reach out to the reasonable people that remain.

Would more communication be good?
Sure.
Would it help much?
I honestly don’t think so…

It’s akin to trying to appease a fat kid by feeding him more candy… It’s never enough.

And as it has been pointed out earlier in this thread… There is a large difference between the forum goes here and the much larger majority that just play the game and never come here.
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again…
It only takes a relatively small number of people to turn forums like these into a toxic cesspit…
No amount of ‘open communication’ would ever help with that, and if anything, would only give more fuel to fan the flames…

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Don’t get me wrong, I want them to talk to us to, but I don’t think enough are ready to listen. Not here, anyway.

It is like that exactly because of the silence. the longer it lasts, the worse it gets. Yes, if Anet started talking to us right now, lot of people would not be ready for it, but it would shift the trend the other way. The longer they delay, the harder it will get to them when they decide to break the silence – and they will have to do that eventually. Unless of course they want to completely alienate the community – and, trust me, it can get way, way, worse than it is now.

Galen Grey.4709:

And this isnt even speculation, they already tried some high level information when say they announced precursors scavenger hunt / crafting for example. How many people are happy with that communication?

With that communication then? lot of people were. Most of them got unhappy not because introducing it got delayed (or cancelled), but due to the information blackout later on. Currently we don’t even know what’s really going on with it. The unhappiness would have been lot lower if we kept getting honest updates on the progress.

Galen Grey.4709:

Simple speaking communication is a double edge sword and unfortunately us as a community as a whole (generalizing here of course) showed them that we cannot handle it. Ultimately we created an environment which makes it hard for Arenanet to communicate at all.

No. Anet handling communication with community very badly is what created that toxic environment.

Galen Grey.4709:

Just put yourself in a PR person’s shoes working at arenanet and look at the reaction from say the gamescon interviews happening right now. Would you push for more communication or less if you were in charge of that? If it were me I’d probably suggest to avoid interviews where possible cause they end up doing more damage then good.

Then i can only hope you will never be placed in that position. Because that would be a really bad decision.
Not that i would call that interview “communicating”.

Xenon.4537:

That’s true now. What I meant was when they set forth their plans on communication (yes they do that) they must have thought this would be enough.

Maybe. On the other hand, they should have known it won’t be – it’s not like the problem appeared only recently, we started having topics like this shortly after Ascended Gear introduction. That was three month into the game. Over a year and a half ago.

And they still don’t have a community liaison, someone in the same role Gaile Gray had in GW1.

Astralporing.1957:

Galen Grey.4709:

Simple speaking communication is a double edge sword and unfortunately us as a community as a whole (generalizing here of course) showed them that we cannot handle it. Ultimately we created an environment which makes it hard for Arenanet to communicate at all.

No. Anet handling communication with community very badly is what created that toxic environment.

It’s a little bit of both.

Both Arena.net AND its players contributed to the environment. Yes, a very small group of players who are hellbent on being angry and insulted overreact to everything, and makes it very difficult for earnest, candid dialogue. Just because those people are going to exist does NOT make it acceptable behavior.

On that same token, the answer is NOT to walk away from the table and give everyone the silent treatment. THAT is on Arena.net and that remains their continued mistake. Let’s not excuse one side OR the other for the poisoned well. We’ve all contributed to the acid in the water.

I have been absolutely shocked by how people have treated some of the Anet employees here. No one deserves to be treated like that.

DaShi.1368:

I have been absolutely shocked by how people have treated some of the Anet employees here. No one deserves to be treated like that.

What you, and Arena.net, has to realize is that those tools are an insignificant minority of the player base. Yes, they seem like more because they tend to be very loud and very aggressive with their antics.

But as a company, at the very least, you HAVE to ignore them if you want to maintain a good dialogue.

Astralporing.1957:

And they still don’t have a community liaison, someone in the same role Gaile Gray had in GW1.

But they do have a person who replaced Gaile Gray. She took the position from Gaile right after they announced GW2 and Gaile was promoted. She even did the LA/Kamadan Q&A’s for a bit after taking the position.

Edit: Regina Buenaobra http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Regina_Buenaobra

chemiclord.3978:

stuff about trolls

And then there will also ALWAYS exist people who complain about those who complain, cuz…reasons. They WILL seek to be just as “combative and disruptive” to deny the entire point of a forum – to voice one’s concerns, provide feedback of any sort, speak one’s mind – in short, they don’t want a forum to be ‘a public meeting place for open discussion’, but rather a place where like-minded people give each other a pat on the back that the ship ain’t sinking, even when it’s on the verge of capsizing.

Good thing many have broken down this type of pointless whiteknight-driven type of complaining on numerous occasions:

Serenity.6149:

chemiclord.3978:

Serenity.6149:

Also, this “entitled” argument is such a straw man. The community is obviously not entitled to get everything it wants (especially since players want different things), but I do not understand this obsession with needing to be okay with being fed dog poop. If you’re okay with it, Arenanet has trained you well and that’s your prerogative, but if people are unhappy with the direction of a product they had high expectations for, it’s their prerogative to voice their concern as well. If you want everyone with a complaint to leave the game, you’re no less selfish than the people you accuse, and you’re going to be left playing a pretty empty game.

I don’t think you’re quite getting my point.

It has nothing to do with “being okay with being fed dog poop.” It’s that Arena.net is GOING to feed you what you think is dog poop, no matter how much you whine and cry on their official forums. Their entire motivation is doing what they think will get the most people spending money on their game.

Because they don’t owe you transparency. They don’t HAVE to give you the roadmap. The only thing they HAVE to do is keep hitting the monetary goals NCSoft has no doubt set for them.

And they aren’t wrong. As much as the forum has railed against multiple changes, the money flowing in suggests that Arena.net ISN’T struggling and apparently are hitting their goals every single time. Until they don’t, I wouldn’t hold your breath on them worrying too much about making the forum goers happy.

Considering I did not quote your post, I don’t understand your “I don’t think you’re quite getting my point” statement, as your point is not the only one to get.

That said, there has been a very distressing “if you don’t like the game, go elsewhere” mentality with the game’s most ardent supporters, just as there’s a very distressing “the game is free, so you have no right to expect anything” mentality (erroneous as it may be). You can feel free to take or not take this as pointing at you as well.

And the following one (SkiTz’s post) https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Anet-is-out-of-touch/page/4#post4310690

And this (Labjax’s post )https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Anet-is-out-of-touch/page/4#post4310773
Also relevant (Tei’s post): https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Gw2-A-game-for-players-or-a-game-for-devs/first#post4310783
(links provided because of the message body length limitation)

And these are just some of the most recent examples.
I find it rather amusing how you (conveniently) swapped your initial stance from ‘nou they don’t need to talk to us at all cuz…reasonz’ to ‘they should talk to us, but ignore the trollz’.

p.s. Your parroting ‘its da minority’ is questionable at best, and just a strawman at worst – just because some people do not voice their concerns by posting does not mean they fall into your imaginative ‘majority’ either.
Not to mention this downright sad apologetic stance of ‘you guyz scared them away you big bullies’ makes my neurons wanna commit suicide by jumping out of my ears.
What is this, a teletubbies show?

See, I’m not saying that the people who are loudest, most disenfranchised and least reasonable should be the target of the communication. Most of those people are not going to change their minds or even stop their attacks.

But by continuing to be reasonable in the face of those people, they lose merit…their arguments crumple. It’s a strategy I use all the time.

Someone jumps on me and starts saying stuff that I believe most reasonable people would not accept. The more they say it, the more reasonable people come to my point of view…not because I’m necessarily 100% right, but because those disagreeing with me are so obviously disenfranchised.

They’re not going to change their mind, but the lurkers, who are the bulk of the forum population have some food for thought. They can make up their minds, only if people are willing to put the other side of the story down in words.

Same thing with Anet.

If Anet doesn’t reply to extended criticism, even with a “we’ve heard you, and we’re looking at it”, then people will just start to believe Anet doesn’t care, even if there’s plenty of evidence that they do.

Too many people believe what they read online…particularly in the absence of a counterpoint. The logic is, if Anet isn’t saying this is wrong, it must be right. It’s bad logic, but a lot of people use it anyway.

Yea, I agree too many ppl might actually believe some stuff they on the forums, such as this gem:

Vayne.8563:

VincentDW.9376:

Vayne.8563:

That said, stuff like first person view and wider field of vision, aren’t in the game. They haven’t been in the game since launch. No one from Anet has ever implied they’re coming.

But they were in the beta, and to my knowledge, Anet has never been able to articulate a good (i.e. not self-contradictory, like the reasoning we just saw) reason why they didn’t make it from the beta to release in some form or another, even if it’s a limited form. It’s not a matter of people asking for features like this to be created out of the blue; the features exist, they just aren’t being used.

When they are willing to give answers so embarrassingly bad that they literally contradict themselves, I can only imagine that means that the truth is even more embarrassing, something like, “oops, we accidentally fired all the coders who understood this feature, and now we have no one capable of altering it and no budget to hire anyone else.” I completely understand why someone would rather make nonsensical statements than admit the truth if it’s anything like I imagine it to be.

They’re not in the game because a decent percentage of the player base would lock themselves into first person view, be unable to play the game, assume the game sucks and leaves. Which is good for no one. Even people who want it.

Good thing posters can also ‘give them food for thought’ to ‘the lurker’s when they counter such (quasi-argumented) statements to reveal just how asinine and apologist-driven they really are.
Much like blaming the PR, or lack thereof for their abysmal communication with the community. You do realize that boils down to incompetence either way, because the company actively chose not to assign properly trained staff to perform that task, be it because it felt there was no need to or to cut corners.
You need to realize they are an active player on the market and are there to make profit rather than to provide a public service – and on the market you either deliver or go bust, no one cares about the reasons. It’s the result that matters, and good communication helps increase the chances it is a successful one.
But hey, the gem store seems to be ‘delivering’ quite well on its intended function, so it is unlikely there are any significant changes on the horizon.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Yea, I agree too many ppl might actually believe some stuff they on the forums, such as this gem:

Vayne.8563:

VincentDW.9376:

Vayne.8563:

That said, stuff like first person view and wider field of vision, aren’t in the game. They haven’t been in the game since launch. No one from Anet has ever implied they’re coming.

But they were in the beta, and to my knowledge, Anet has never been able to articulate a good (i.e. not self-contradictory, like the reasoning we just saw) reason why they didn’t make it from the beta to release in some form or another, even if it’s a limited form. It’s not a matter of people asking for features like this to be created out of the blue; the features exist, they just aren’t being used.

When they are willing to give answers so embarrassingly bad that they literally contradict themselves, I can only imagine that means that the truth is even more embarrassing, something like, “oops, we accidentally fired all the coders who understood this feature, and now we have no one capable of altering it and no budget to hire anyone else.” I completely understand why someone would rather make nonsensical statements than admit the truth if it’s anything like I imagine it to be.

They’re not in the game because a decent percentage of the player base would lock themselves into first person view, be unable to play the game, assume the game sucks and leaves. Which is good for no one. Even people who want it.

Good thing we can ‘give them food for thought’ with counter arguments by showing just how asinine such (quazi-argumented) statements are.

As I already explained, I was being flippant. But since you quoted it, I’ll say this.

No one is EVER going to be 100% correct. Not you, not me, not anyone. However, I’m happy to let my posting recording stand up on it’s own and let everyone judge what I say. Even you, Karla.

Unfortunately your defense of that mockery of an interview, and many other things we’ve debated on in the past, also falls under that quasi-argumented type of posting. See above for reasons.
On a side note, do be careful that you don’t ‘lock yourself’ into circular argumentation mode again (amusing as it may be).

Beldin.5498:

Cross.6437:

I don’t need it to be super specific either. Just descriptive enough for the imagination without revealing too much.

Some examples:
“We’re currently working on new rewards in PvP because we want to increase the variety of unique rewards available in that game mode.”
or
“We’re currently working on reviewing dungeons rewards because we want to ensure that rewards line up with average time investment.”

Two things. That’s all I need:
*The area they’re working on
*What their general hope is in improving that area

So something like : " we work on a precursor hunt"

You know how that turned out .. didn’t you ?

While yes, the community when ballistic and spat venom and shouted “broken promise”, the fact remains they came out and said " we are going to work on a precursor scavenger hunt, and at the bottom they said ‘subject to change’. And then they came out and said, “it didn’t work as we thought, so its on the back burner till we can figure something out”.

And despite the backlash, they at least TALKED to us and told us where they were at. But the forums through a fit.

And even with the commander tag change, they came out and said ‘yeH, we heard your feedback, and it convinced us to change our minds, so we did.". What started to happen? ’this was stunt.’ ‘It was a fake leak earlier.’ And other conspiracy theories.

I mean, you can believe what you want on that issue, but it shows that even if anet even tries to make a change, or revert something in an post a few days later to please the community, they are still skeward.

So really, ask yourselves, even if they start talking again, would it do anything since when we get something we want, we still lash out in anger?

@ Serophous.9085

But some of the problems are, they are alway working on everything, the man question is, “what are they currently topics being focused on” like precursors, they said “yeah it didnt work out, so we had to go back to the drawing board.” ok anet.. are you still working on it? Or did you just forget about it till later b.c your LS is in your eyes(anet eyes) more important.

There are MANY things that high majority of players wants before LS updates/new content. They NEVER say if they truly are working on them or not, they imply they are.

Some things are:
More Dungeons
Precursors
500 Cooking/jewel (this goes with jewel, Crafting ascended trinkets)
Fixed for fotms
Fix for TP
Fix for Pve Condi
More pvp options

Yes the Update someone this a bit, like pvp tracks, but mostly pvp community wanted more options in maps/game type (yes rewards was in there) we got the rewards, but what about the things that keeps it fun? like maps and game types, Playing tpvp with 1 game mode and 4 maps will get bored VERY fast.

@Serophous, silence is not really an issue when the game delivers (also by listening to the right kind of forum feedback). However if there is nothing of merit to be said, then silence is golden. After all, by now most have grown tired of lipservice and PR-tinted responses.

This is what GW2 needs to do already-
http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2014/08/20/the-road-ahead----august-20

It’s a perfect example of what ANet needs done.

You can argue over whether ESO is better than GW2 or whatever but the way they do it is much better.

I never understand treads like this especially not now.

I feel anet told us very clear what they working on now. Ls and class balance also spvp improvements. Before they told us about they want implement more mob mechanics and those are here with the ls now in plant form.

They made a tumbler blog and twitch tv channel. They tell us more then ever.

Ppl who say they don’t communicate may should inform themselves better.

What u maybe really mean is that the game didn’t get new content fast enough.

Balsa.3951:

I never understand treads like this especially not now.

I feel anet told us very clear what they working on now. Ls and class balance also spvp improvements. Before they told us about they want implement more mob mechanics and those are here with the ls now in plant form.

They made a tumbler blog and twitch tv channel. They tell us more then ever.

Ppl who say they don’t communicate may should inform themselves better.

What u maybe really mean is that the game didn’t get new content fast enough.

But there’s a very very long thread about the trait system, without a red post in it, and there are very very few defenders of what Anet has done with it in that thread. A single post there by Anet saying we’re looking into it, but it’ll take a while would have set most reasonable minds to rest, or at least slowed down some of the criticism.

this is partially true

like the sylvari saying “act with wisdom, but act”
talk to us about something helpful, but talk

oftentimes, not saying anything at all, is worse than saying the wrong things

Astralporing.1957:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Don’t get me wrong, I want them to talk to us to, but I don’t think enough are ready to listen. Not here, anyway.

It is like that exactly because of the silence. the longer it lasts, the worse it gets. Yes, if Anet started talking to us right now, lot of people would not be ready for it, but it would shift the trend the other way. The longer they delay, the harder it will get to them when they decide to break the silence – and they will have to do that eventually. Unless of course they want to completely alienate the community – and, trust me, it can get way, way, worse than it is now.

I have to disagree because it was like this before they simply shut down on us as well. When they did chat on here, when they did try the looking ahead blogs every 6 months. They were communicating, which should have made it better, but instead only made it worse. After the last looking ahead blog, January first rolled around and in the first several days we started getting things like “2013 is over, did they keep their promises” when no promises had been made. When Colin had told us not even 2 months prior that certain things would not make their initial end of the year projections. They tried CDIs to let us have feedback (some of which they actually implemented) but no one (I use “no one” very loosely here, it’s not intended to be taken literally) had anything good to say about these attempts. They called it PR bullkitten and instead, it has spiraled further into the gutter to the point where they just don’t say anything until they know for sure they can it and it’s ready to be rolled out.

Of course it can get worse, but that’s going to further show them that it’s just not worth it to talk to the forum community. They do still talk to the twitter and facebook communities. Devs hop into the twitch chats and talk as well (when they can keep up with the flow of conversation). So, it’s not like they completely shut us out. We know they still read our posts, because they reference them… in twitch, in interviews, etc. They just don’t respond here typically, because it just not safe to do so.

Vayne.8563:

Balsa.3951:

I never understand treads like this especially not now.

I feel anet told us very clear what they working on now. Ls and class balance also spvp improvements. Before they told us about they want implement more mob mechanics and those are here with the ls now in plant form.

They made a tumbler blog and twitch tv channel. They tell us more then ever.

Ppl who say they don’t communicate may should inform themselves better.

What u maybe really mean is that the game didn’t get new content fast enough.

But there’s a very very long thread about the trait system, without a red post in it, and there are very very few defenders of what Anet has done with it in that thread. A single post there by Anet saying we’re looking into it, but it’ll take a while would have set most reasonable minds to rest, or at least slowed down some of the criticism.

Why should they look into it, is not the new system is bad it’s a improvement. Ppl just cry bcs now they need use there brain to Lv a char. Before it was just sleepwalking.

And what u want they say ?yes we are happy … so they anger the unhappy ppl who are not more but still more loud then the ppl who like the new system.

They tell us what they work on that’s enough for me.

We report game breaking bugs and they react in the forum, what proves they read it example blix exploit

Balsa.3951:

Vayne.8563:

Balsa.3951:

I never understand treads like this especially not now.

I feel anet told us very clear what they working on now. Ls and class balance also spvp improvements. Before they told us about they want implement more mob mechanics and those are here with the ls now in plant form.

They made a tumbler blog and twitch tv channel. They tell us more then ever.

Ppl who say they don’t communicate may should inform themselves better.

What u maybe really mean is that the game didn’t get new content fast enough.

But there’s a very very long thread about the trait system, without a red post in it, and there are very very few defenders of what Anet has done with it in that thread. A single post there by Anet saying we’re looking into it, but it’ll take a while would have set most reasonable minds to rest, or at least slowed down some of the criticism.

Why should they look into it, is not the new system is bad it’s a improvement. Ppl just cry bcs now they need use there brain to Lv a char. Before it was just sleepwalking.

And what u want they say ?yes we are happy … so they anger the unhappy ppl who are not more but still more loud then the ppl who like the new system.

They tell us what they work on that’s enough for me.

We report game breaking bugs and they react in the forum, what proves they read it example blix exploit

The new system, improvement or not, has several significant flaws in it, many of which were pointed out. Most people know me as a supporter of the game. I genuinely enjoy leveling alts, but I’ve leveled my last alt for now, unless they fix the issues. I’d say that’s not just a knee jerk reaction.

And to make sure I did level one character after the patch all the way to 80. The experience was not made more fun by how the system was set up. I have absolutely no problem with working towards traits, that’s not my issue. But all of this is just a side point.

If a portion of the playerbase has legitimate concerns, and many of the concerns are legitimate, simply acknowledging that they are legitimate, or even that they’re being looked into can have a mollifying affect.

People ARE angry about it. People are frustrated. I have 18 80s and might have started on a 19. I’m not going to buy a character slot now. I may not buy one unless a new profession or race is added, which is likely to be quite some time from now.

I’d say it’s worth Anet poking their nose in and saying something.

Balsa.3951:

I never understand treads like this especially not now.

I feel anet told us very clear what they working on now. Ls and class balance also spvp improvements. Before they told us about they want implement more mob mechanics and those are here with the ls now in plant form.

They made a tumbler blog and twitch tv channel. They tell us more then ever.

Ppl who say they don’t communicate may should inform themselves better.

What u maybe really mean is that the game didn’t get new content fast enough.

There was another thread about how spread out info is across social media, that’s a problem too. This forum should be a centralized place for all info and should at least aggregate all the news feeds from all these social outlets.

On our server website, i’ve tucked everything ANet (accept twitter) into one forum. http://northernshiverpeaks.org/index.php?/forum/2-anet-dev-tracker/ . I’m not saying they should do exactly that here, but they should be consolidating it here. Bungie does this sort of thing really well with Destiny.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

They do still talk to the twitter and facebook communities.

I’ve not always paid close attention to Anet’s GW2 facebook presence (and have only participated in that community to the extent of clicking the ‘Like’ button on the GW2 facebook page), but lately I’ve become much more curious about how people outside of our vaunted official forums are responding to Anet’s output. And…

(drumroll)

…I’ve noticed a lot of player grumpiness there, too, which pretty much echoes the grumpiness here. So I don’t think it’s just us.

Note that this is a personal observation which is by no means grounded upon or founded upon or remotely beholden to any degree of exacting, painstaking scientific method, real or imagined, and I also once saw a UFO.

munkiman.3068:

Balsa.3951:

I never understand treads like this especially not now.

I feel anet told us very clear what they working on now. Ls and class balance also spvp improvements. Before they told us about they want implement more mob mechanics and those are here with the ls now in plant form.

They made a tumbler blog and twitch tv channel. They tell us more then ever.

Ppl who say they don’t communicate may should inform themselves better.

What u maybe really mean is that the game didn’t get new content fast enough.

There was another thread about how spread out info is across social media, that’s a problem too. This forum should be a centralized place for all info and should at least aggregate all the news feeds from all these social outlets.

On our server website, i’ve tucked everything ANet (accept twitter) into one forum. http://northernshiverpeaks.org/index.php?/forum/2-anet-dev-tracker/ . I’m not saying they should do exactly that here, but they should be consolidating it here. Bungie does this sort of thing really well with Destiny.

That’s a good point

But they may have technical limits here

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I have to disagree because it was like this before they simply shut down on us as well.

No, it wasn’t and they didn’t. Shut down on us, i mean. The communication they had with community was really, really bad since launch, and while there were moments it was bit better than it is now, it was never even close to good. Or just passable. The last time the communication was okay was in the betas, and the community behaved way better at that time.
Communication breakdown happened before the forum toxicity even started to show in any visible and meaningful way.

munkiman.3068:

The vocal minority typically saves the silent majority the headache of poorly thought out features.

The vocal minority is just that vocal and a minority. These are the people that are arrogant enough to think they speak for everyone and they only speak for themselves. Maybe the reason the silent majority is silent is: 1. They are fine with things the way they are; 2. afraid to get waylaid by the vocal ones; 3. Realize they would be drowned out.

People on these forums have the self-righteous attitude to think they know how to design a game. I for one would love to see that. They would be in for a rude awakening. There is a lot of work that has to be done BEFORE anything is put in, then the testing, etc.

Give A.Net the credit, at least, that they HAVE designed 2 games. Give the respect they deserve and maybe you will get it back. One has to give respect in order to get it.

Tachenon.5270:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

They do still talk to the twitter and facebook communities.

I’ve not always paid close attention to Anet’s GW2 facebook presence (and have only participated in that community to the extent of clicking the ‘Like’ button on the GW2 facebook page), but lately I’ve become much more curious about how people outside of our vaunted official forums are responding to Anet’s output. And…

(drumroll)

…I’ve noticed a lot of player grumpiness there, too, which pretty much echoes the grumpiness here. So I don’t think it’s just us.

Note that this is a personal observation which is by no means grounded upon or founded upon or remotely beholden to any degree of exacting, painstaking scientific method, real or imagined, and I also once saw a UFO.

No, you’re right, there is grumpiness there too. But its just that grumpiness. Sure, they have some bile on there too, but take a look at the overall difference in tones between there and here. It is so much worse here.

I mean, we have kitten like “Devs Wasting Time” here, kittening about how apparently they don’t know what they are doing. Because you know, the players obviously know best, right. While they do have some comments of similar bile on their twitter or facebook, it’s not anywhere near the same extent nor as often.

ShinjoNaomi.1896:

Would more communication be good?
Sure.
Would it help much?
I honestly don’t think so…

It’s akin to trying to appease a fat kid by feeding him more candy… It’s never enough.

And as it has been pointed out earlier in this thread… There is a large difference between the forum goes here and the much larger majority that just play the game and never come here.
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again…
It only takes a relatively small number of people to turn forums like these into a toxic cesspit…
No amount of ‘open communication’ would ever help with that, and if anything, would only give more fuel to fan the flames…

People aren’t asking for candy though… they’re starving and are asking for just one meal a day at least. Something to chew on that is nutritious and will last.

And I guess you could say the feature pack does that with its staggered daily updates (on weekdays) but that’s something that will stop once the feature pack is released.

It’s also very short-term; less than a month in advance sharing the information and judging by the way they handled the commander tag debacle, the features they’re talking about in the blog posts are already primed and ready to go.

Anyway, the word I’m looking for here is “presence” more than anything; you can have a presence amidst your community without giving them a rundown on every design conversation you have. You can answer questions and just say you can’t answer when you can’t (see: the economy thread with lots of John Smith Q&A).

The devs having a presence makes us (the players) feel more like they are in touch with the playerbase, even if they aren’t. It’s a psychological thing and to be honest with you, I’ll take false confidence in my devs over no confidence any day. One of them leaves me with a positive feeling, at least, even if the outcome is the same.

And I will defend devs who instill confidence in me because that’s just the kind of person I am.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I mean, we have kitten like “Devs Wasting Time” here, kittening about how apparently they don’t know what they are doing.

Is it really that unfair to say that the devs are out of touch with the community or that they don’t know what they’re doing considering things like what’s now happened with SAB and what they originally intended for the commander tag system?

I mean, they were fully prepared to charge WvW players 1200 gold for a QoL improvement that would have allowed commanders to better coordinate in WvW (and PVE to a lesser extent).

They thought that this was a good design decision.

They continue to think that leaving SAB and the Continue Coin to rot, despite no future planned work on it, to be a good decision.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Astralporing.1957:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Don’t get me wrong, I want them to talk to us to, but I don’t think enough are ready to listen. Not here, anyway.

It is like that exactly because of the silence. the longer it lasts, the worse it gets. Yes, if Anet started talking to us right now, lot of people would not be ready for it, but it would shift the trend the other way. The longer they delay, the harder it will get to them when they decide to break the silence – and they will have to do that eventually. Unless of course they want to completely alienate the community – and, trust me, it can get way, way, worse than it is now.

I have to disagree because it was like this before they simply shut down on us as well. When they did chat on here, when they did try the looking ahead blogs every 6 months. They were communicating, which should have made it better, but instead only made it worse. After the last looking ahead blog, January first rolled around and in the first several days we started getting things like “2013 is over, did they keep their promises” when no promises had been made. When Colin had told us not even 2 months prior that certain things would not make their initial end of the year projections. They tried CDIs to let us have feedback (some of which they actually implemented) but no one (I use “no one” very loosely here, it’s not intended to be taken literally) had anything good to say about these attempts. They called it PR bullkitten and instead, it has spiraled further into the gutter to the point where they just don’t say anything until they know for sure they can it and it’s ready to be rolled out.

Of course it can get worse, but that’s going to further show them that it’s just not worth it to talk to the forum community. They do still talk to the twitter and facebook communities. Devs hop into the twitch chats and talk as well (when they can keep up with the flow of conversation). So, it’s not like they completely shut us out. We know they still read our posts, because they reference them… in twitch, in interviews, etc. They just don’t respond here typically, because it just not safe to do so.

the CDIs, overall had pages and pages of people submitting and discussing things, there really wasnt that much CDI is useless things.
Most of the CDI is useless things came later when they implemented things that missed the mark, or that people said they didnt want in that way. As well as certain big things being implemented that many people said they should have made the topic of the CDI.

To be honest, They probably need a system of review for their development style, many times some key aspect of their implementation ruins a good system. Much like the commander tag was about to be. Or halloween 2 rewards. etc.

anyhow, that aside, general this is the direction we are going/things we are working on is pretty normal. And people need to stop blaming users for being upset with anet not delivering, they should be able to deliver. Mistakes happen, but that doesnt mean they are ignored, or should be forgotten.

It is objectively not good that something they wanted to do 8 months ago is still in the brainstorm stage. Im not saying crucify them for it, but dont act like being 8 months off on a projection is all good either. Even if they never told us they intended to do it, IT IS STILL BAD that they cannot achieve their goals within 8 months of their intended time frame.

Just think, how many other unknown projects are extremely backlogged or late? what difference would that make to how people feel about the content and game if these things were in? Running away from saying intentions doesnt change that things need to be done. The problems remain, and many are overdue for being solved. Speaking to us actually probably helps them more than it hurts, because people (overall) tend to give some weight to intentions(to a limit) rather than the things you never said.

Gene Archer.8560:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I mean, we have kitten like “Devs Wasting Time” here, kittening about how apparently they don’t know what they are doing.

Is it really that unfair to say that the devs are out of touch with the community or that they don’t know what they’re doing considering things like what’s now happened with SAB and what they originally intended for the commander tag system?

I mean, they were fully prepared to charge WvW players 1200 gold for a QoL improvement that would have allowed commanders to better coordinate in WvW (and PVE to a lesser extent).

They thought that this was a good design decision.

They continue to think that leaving SAB and the Continue Coin to rot, despite no future planned work on it, to be a good decision.

There is a difference between “wasting time and effort” and “being out of touch.” The threads reference different things, but it’s very ballsy to make either claim when we know absolutely nothing about the inner workings at Anet.

I do agree that the 300g per tag just to get colors was an asinine idea. I’ve said such in other threads, and I’ve explained my personal reasoning as to why in a few places. They did hear us, and they did change it. What this does tell me though is that the devs feel there is presently too much gold in circulation and that they are looking for a solid gold sink to start eliminating it.

All the devs have said is that we won’t see SAB as a part of the LS, which is a good thing. The LS story and the SAB story don’t mesh, they need to be separate things. They have not said that it was scrapped, we will see it again, though not this year. However, maybe the next time we see it, maybe it will become permanent, maybe it will expand on it’s own story. Separating it from the LS should be good for it as it’s not tied to defeating the dragon. It’s a “side quest.”

Gene Archer.8560:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I mean, we have kitten like “Devs Wasting Time” here, kittening about how apparently they don’t know what they are doing.

Is it really that unfair to say that the devs are out of touch with the community or that they don’t know what they’re doing considering things like what’s now happened with SAB and what they originally intended for the commander tag system?

I mean, they were fully prepared to charge WvW players 1200 gold for a QoL improvement that would have allowed commanders to better coordinate in WvW (and PVE to a lesser extent).

They thought that this was a good design decision.

They continue to think that leaving SAB and the Continue Coin to rot, despite no future planned work on it, to be a good decision.

Sure it’s unfair.

When I worked at my old place, I managed the store and we had an owner as well. Sometimes the owner would get a deal on something and buy it, even though I was the buyer. People would come in, look at the crap he bought and say, you guys have no clue do you.

I didn’t buy it. I had no say in it. Painting all devs with one brush for one decision that might not have even been a dev decision? I’d say that’s unfair.

Business decisions aren’t generally made by developers. They don’t decide what to charge for and one not to charge for.

The corporate side is certainly going to be out of touch with gamers. Is that the devs though? All the devs? Some of the devs?

It only takes a couple of people to make a bad decision. If all the devs agreed with that decision I doubt very much it would have been reversed.

phys.7689:

the CDIs, overall had pages and pages of people submitting and discussing things, there really wasnt that much CDI is useless things. .

There was quite a bit of kittening before hand as well. Complaints of PR stunts and such. Yes, there was also kittening after them as well – they don’t listen, wasting our time, etc etc. People still claim they don’t listen to us because they don’t implement things “exactly” as we lay them out for them, and people don’t stop to think that perhaps exactly how we lay them out might not work, or might not be the best option for their long term goals.

Take the wardrobe for example (not town clothes, that’s a different issue), people had a fit because it’s not free to transmute as much as you want once you unlock a skin and it’s completely unrealistic to imagine that it should be.

They probably need a system of review for their development style.

I do agree that sometimes they make decisions that make you scratch your head and go “huh?” but overall it’s typically not too awful. I honestly don’t think a review system would help, at least not based on the forum populations typical responses. Of course, the issue with customer reviews of any type is simply that happy, content customers generally don’t take the time to leave reviews. Mainly the disgruntled ones do, which can skew the results badly.

Now, perhaps they could implement some type of in game survey similar to what we had during the beta weekends, where everyone has the chance to rate content and leave comments, but that brings about it’s own issues. It becomes immersion breaking, people don’t want to be bothered, etc, etc. It makes for no easy solution.

And people need to stop blaming users for being upset with anet not delivering, they should be able to deliver.

I don’t blame users for being upset when being upset is warranted. I blame users when they are being absolute pricks that in turn results in all of us getting the short end of the stick. There is a difference.

Yes mistakes happen, and while no we shouldn’t necessarily sweep it under the rug, we do need to remember that the employees at Anet are human too. They are going to make mistakes (I would be rather concerned if they didn’t) and we need to be tolerant of that fact. By all means, people should critique and provide constructive feedback, be it negative or positive, but it can be done in a manner that isn’t intended to make the devs feel like dirt. Some people need to step into the shoes of those on the receiving end once in a while. They wouldn’t like being treated in some of the ways the devs get treated, so shouldn’t they in turn perhaps rethink how they are treating them?

It is objectively not good that something they wanted to do 8 months ago is still in the brainstorm stage.

How do you know it’s still in the brainstorming stage? Do you work there? I know I don’t.

Assuming you’re talking about precursor crafting here, and based on the comments made in April, they were further along than the brainstorming stage. However, because of other changes, how it was being implemented at that time no longer worked and they had to re-evaluate. That doesn’t mean they had to scrap everything they had done and go back to brainstorming. It’s possible, but since they aren’t going to tell us anything until its ready (a policy that they’ve had since GW1) and neither of us work there, we really don’t know. We can make assumptions, but as I’ve said elsewhere, those tend to come back to bite us in the kitten .

phys.7689:

Just think, how many other unknown projects are extremely backlogged or late?

If their development environment is anything like the development environment I work in, they probably have a very long list of “backlogged” tasks. Probably numbering in the hundreds, which they need to regularly reevaluate and rank by priority. Is some of what they want to push out late? Possibly, that happens with development. You plan on doing A, forecast it to take ‘Y’ amount of time or effort based on what you know needs to be done and some initial investigation as to what it would take to implement. Then you start working on it and you run into issue ‘X’ or issue ‘B’ further compounded by issue ‘D’ and it doesn’t go as smoothly as originally planned. Or it takes longer than originally estimated because your initial thoughts on implementation don’t work quite right because of a conflict with coding elsewhere, or because system ‘f’ got an overhaul and now functions differently than it originally did. This is just how development goes. I can’t begin to tell you how many times I, and others I work with, have run into issues because some change by a concurrent team.

I would say it’s debatable whether or not actually speaking to us is helpful. Something like the CDIs are good because they can get lots of player feedback and thoughts on a specific issue, but actually talking to us…not the way a lot of us tend to respond. They’d need to have someone with good “PR speak” to talk to us, in order to avoid a lot of the verbal mines waiting around here. As I’ve said before we wouldn’t be happy with it, and a lot of the responses to Mike’s post prove that point.

KarlaGrey.5903:

/snipped for brevity

I’m not entirely certain exactly what your point was in all that, but let’s try this again.

I fully believe that yes, there exists a group of gamers who their sole purpose is to be trolls. They refuse to be content with anything in front of them, and are the very definition of “entitled brats.” Nothing will ever be good enough for them.

These players also tend to be very, very loud with their (often irrational) venting and “criticisms” (if I wish to use the term loosely). They care little about potential consequences of what they want, just that they want it and to hell with anyone else.

I understand a company simply not wanting anything to do with those players. There’s literally nothing that can be said that will mollify them, so why try?

However, that opens up an entirely different problem… that group is a VERY small percentage of the players, and by going silent, you don’t punish those brats. That’s actually how they “win.” The people who get hurt when a company walks away from the table is everyone else. Now THEY are denied the dialogue that makes a company and a game better due to idiots that shouldn’t be given even a cursory response.

My view is that BOTH the players AND the developers have a responsibility to the environment that forms between them, and that NEITHER side is completely innocent for the acid levels in the pool.

Arena.net SHOULD have continued with their initial roadmaps, been more active in the CDI threads (even though it seems pretty clear they were still listening just by looking at the changes in the game over the last year), among other things. They shouldn’t have let the “YOU PROMISED CRAFTABLE PRECURSORS (even though you didn’t)” crowd push them into silence.

And now, with all that said… just because maintaining good communication is a good idea, it does NOT mean a company is OBLIGATED to do so. There is no special relationship between developers and players. There is no partnership. You are just a customer. You paid money for a product, and you have received that product. Anything you get beyond that is a courtesy, and should be treated as such.

It is perfectly okay to stop supporting a company for not affording the courtesies you want, and in fact it’s the greatest power in the business. I’m not sure when, “If you don’t like [x] then leave” became a derisive dismissal, because it isn’t. It’s earnest advice to invoke your power as a customer. It’s the biggest weapon you’ve got. You should use it if it you feel a company isn’t respecting your business.

Vayne.8563:

Gene Archer.8560:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I mean, we have kitten like “Devs Wasting Time” here, kittening about how apparently they don’t know what they are doing.

Is it really that unfair to say that the devs are out of touch with the community or that they don’t know what they’re doing considering things like what’s now happened with SAB and what they originally intended for the commander tag system?

I mean, they were fully prepared to charge WvW players 1200 gold for a QoL improvement that would have allowed commanders to better coordinate in WvW (and PVE to a lesser extent).

They thought that this was a good design decision.

They continue to think that leaving SAB and the Continue Coin to rot, despite no future planned work on it, to be a good decision.

Sure it’s unfair.

When I worked at my old place, I managed the store and we had an owner as well. Sometimes the owner would get a deal on something and buy it, even though I was the buyer. People would come in, look at the crap he bought and say, you guys have no clue do you.

I didn’t buy it. I had no say in it. Painting all devs with one brush for one decision that might not have even been a dev decision? I’d say that’s unfair.

Business decisions aren’t generally made by developers. They don’t decide what to charge for and one not to charge for.

The corporate side is certainly going to be out of touch with gamers. Is that the devs though? All the devs? Some of the devs?

It only takes a couple of people to make a bad decision. If all the devs agreed with that decision I doubt very much it would have been reversed.

You know what they say kittens roll down hill :P
Unfortunately the guys at the bottom tend to get a lot of flack (I’m thinking about help desk support, boy do they have to take a lot of kittens from people who are unhappy about things that help desk has no control over).

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

They’d need to have someone with good “PR speak” to talk to us, in order to avoid a lot of the verbal mines waiting around here. As I’ve said before we wouldn’t be happy with it, and a lot of the responses to Mike’s post prove that point.

This is the ideal solution, I think. Developers commenting on things is nice, but it’s not their job (they develop).
Having a dedicated PR person whose job it is to play intermediary between developers and players would be ideal (or at least would mean less pressure on the devs to comment and more responses in the forum). Sure we’ll probably get a whole lot of PR speak but their would at least be some useful info as well. Even if this PR person mostly comments along the lines of: oh this is interesting I’ll discuss it with the team later and give feedback. Of course this also requires feedback to be given.

Don’t confuse “not listening” with “not doing what I want.”