Guild Wars 2

Ruggan.4102:

Charak.9761:

Some of these may not make it in for that release

Just remember this, some people take the words of a dev as final say.

I’m glad that tab targetting is finally getting a fix, was tired of tab targetting through a bunch of spirits to get to a ranger.

It’s about time there’s an anti-stealth mechanic in the game (similar to hunter flare). You’ll see alot of QQ from thieves, but this is necessary. I’ll keep a ranger near me now in pvp.

The one thing though Fix Guardian shield this weapon feels entriely lackluster is is mostly only used for the knockback for point control or thieves stealth in spvp.

Yea, its about time they added a counter to that god mode skill stealth… i mean seriously:
1) Ground Targeted AOEs did nothing against a stealthed thief… except have them take damage as they tried to approach for a melee attack and get whatever conditions were associated with the AOE as well.
2) Knockback, Stun, Daze, Knockdown… yea these did nothing to interupt the casting of things like Shadow Refuge or reveal the thief after knocking the thief out of the SR field.
3) Revealed Debuff… yup, nothing says perma stealth god mode like having a 3-4 second time frame where you cant use stealth at all.
4) Anti-Stealth Traps… yea, these are expensive but what other specific piece of WvW gear is specifically made to target a single class? NONE!
5) PVE mobs dont lose aggro with stealth anymore. Oh wait that goes for WvW mobs too.. so for those who keep QQ that thieves use ambient creatures to perma stealth… how about look where the creature that was just attacked is looking and strike there? Chances are, since the mob keeps aggro, it cant attack but it knows where the thief is.

All this BS about stealth needing a counter… there are counters to stealth… you just need to actually learn to use them.

So spam in the direction you think the thief might be and hope it drops all of his health. Also hope he doesn’t have half a brain so he doesn’t move in a predictable straight line, and also hope he is a bad thief that relies on shadow refuge and uses it incorrectly.

That is good advice dude, thanks. They need you on the balance team.

Ruggan.4102:

4) Anti-Stealth Traps… yea, these are expensive but what other specific piece of WvW gear is specifically made to target a single class? NONE!

Near as I can tell, these are more useful for doing things like stopping stealthed zergs or catching the stealthed mesmer before he drops his portal down. I don’t think most people use them because they’re worried about the stray thief.

Please add Speed skill for Mesmer to utility.
we are forced to take a weapon for speed no other class is forced to do this.
if not please explain why you are not giving it to Mesmer.

Asuka Shikinami.5462:

Small balence suggestions:

Mesmer:
- The simple way to improve build variety is either to move Illusionist Celerity to a lower tier to remove it all together and lower CD’s to compensate. This change messes with a number of builds

^This.
So many builds require the use of skill/weapon reduction just to make a core mechanic work like it should in the fast pace of the game. (We don’t have clones/phants, we die…its pretty simple). Since the previous change from 5 to 25, i’ve seen less diversity then before. Now your either a power or a condition build, both of which uses x weapon for y affect in either of those scenarios, with very little deviation.
Please don’t leave mesmer as cookie cutter only, as its become.

One wish list item , Pistol main hand…make it so.

I am personally already loving the proposed guardian changes. Meditations have always been subpar and most guards have been locked into 30/30/10 (anchor) for group PVE play. its time we fix that.

The change to purging flames also allows better management with condi heavy scenarios outside of speccing 30 in honor or 20 in virtues. In short its a VERY VERY GOOD CHANGE

Ruggan.4102:

Charak.9761:

Some of these may not make it in for that release

Just remember this, some people take the words of a dev as final say.

I’m glad that tab targetting is finally getting a fix, was tired of tab targetting through a bunch of spirits to get to a ranger.

It’s about time there’s an anti-stealth mechanic in the game (similar to hunter flare). You’ll see alot of QQ from thieves, but this is necessary. I’ll keep a ranger near me now in pvp.

The one thing though Fix Guardian shield this weapon feels entriely lackluster is is mostly only used for the knockback for point control or thieves stealth in spvp.

Yea, its about time they added a counter to that god mode skill stealth… i mean seriously:
1) Ground Targeted AOEs did nothing against a stealthed thief… except have them take damage as they tried to approach for a melee attack and get whatever conditions were associated with the AOE as well.
2) Knockback, Stun, Daze, Knockdown… yea these did nothing to interupt the casting of things like Shadow Refuge or reveal the thief after knocking the thief out of the SR field.
3) Revealed Debuff… yup, nothing says perma stealth god mode like having a 3-4 second time frame where you cant use stealth at all.
4) Anti-Stealth Traps… yea, these are expensive but what other specific piece of WvW gear is specifically made to target a single class? NONE!
5) PVE mobs dont lose aggro with stealth anymore. Oh wait that goes for WvW mobs too.. so for those who keep QQ that thieves use ambient creatures to perma stealth… how about look where the creature that was just attacked is looking and strike there? Chances are, since the mob keeps aggro, it cant attack but it knows where the thief is.

All this BS about stealth needing a counter… there are counters to stealth… you just need to actually learn to use them.

1. Ground Targeted AoE can be dodged and walked out of by any thief. On top of that, you would be hard put to actually KILL the thief with that kind of damage(unless the thief is stupid) given that he has any 3 of regeneration during stealth, regains health during stealth, removes conditions during stealth or moves 50% faster(yes 50%, more than swiftness). If i was moving at 50% speed on any class, i could walk out of AoE without even needing to dodge.

2. I have 1 knockback skill that has a recharge of 35. You have 4 stealth skills, among which some have NO cooldown given that they use initiative. That’s provided my knockback actually HITS you. That means I have to actually PREDICT where you are before knocking you back.

3. So far, Revealed only applies to you provided you either walk out of Shadow’s Refuge, or you yourself attack. Revealed does not apply every time your stealth ends. So if you die during Revealed, it is your own fault for revealing yourself. Meaning that Revealed so far is nowhere near a COUNTER to the thief given that it is DEPENDENT on the thief, and not by the person who wants to COUNTER Stealth.
Example:
If my only way to catch up with you in a race depends on you injuring your leg, this is nowhere near a counter.

4. Hello? Mesmer and Engineer(soon) have Stealth. Thank you for seeing only yourself having stealth in that bubble. Here’s your bubble: pop!

5. I’m supposed to kill every rabbit alive to stop you from using Cloak and Dagger? Am i supposed to take everything off the supermarket’s shelf to stop people from shoplifting? Collect every dollar in the world to stop people from robbing a bank…good plan.

Thanks for the transparency in what you guys are planning, I appreciate it.

I main an Engineer, I think somewhere around 1500 of 1700 hours I have in the game are on an Engi. With that said I would love to see turrets and gadgets brought up to the level of kits and elixirs. Some work has been done recently for them, and turrets attacking our target helps a little, but I still feel that elixirs and kits are so much better than gadgets and turrets. Especially now that you’ve changed Toss E and S.

I also appreciate the idea of improving toolbelt skills, they’re pretty lackluster compared to other profession mechanics. I hope that the two Toss elixir skills aren’t the only ones you guys worked on, most toolbelt skills don’t have much “oomph” to them.

Great coommunications

Symbols for Guardians needs to be adressed. To trait them its 55 Points in two different trees.

Considering its one symbol per weapons (4 symbols) the investment is just to heavy to even bother using more than one symbol trait.

Merge all symbol traits in honor and move empowering might and elusive Power to zeal.

Or move all symbols to the staff and:

Give the healing effect and aoe damage of the orb to the third step of the hammer chain
Give empower to mace
Give line of warding to GS

I would prefer all symbols on the staff which also would give Guardians a valid ranged damage option in wvw. Someything we actually lack compared to the other professions in the game. And no scepter is only valid for duels/small groups and pve.

And for the hundred time, fix the broken buff you get from symbol of swiftness.

apt.9184:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Please. Stop calling for endless nerfs. Yes, that ranger build may be prevalent in PvP. But it is not as OP in other areas. And the recent changes to spirits does create much counter-play. Please learn the counter mechanics rather than just call for nerfs.

Thanks.

Lol well I honestly think they should serperate parts like that between sPvP and pve. Btw there very little counter play but what breaks the build is its so face roll that it makes bad players look good and is really effective for many reasons. One they spam autos and stack so many condis its just OP and thats why rangers, warriors, and necros need nerf this meta is so face roll. Burst meta was so much better.

I agree that splits should be made when necessary. I think everyone kinda agrees on that.

As far as counter play? There was some before. Take out the spirits. The problem, before at least, is that many rangers precast the spirits and could instantly recast them. With the change in how spirits operate, you know, their enforced 25 second cooldown, you actually have a decent window. Just like with all the cries against pet bunker rangers there has always been a counter. Attack the pet/spirit/minion. But few bothered to do that. Few still do. They instead cry for nerfs instead of learning the counters.

And yes, rangers tend to spam auto. But you know what? Almost every class in the game does. Rangers more than most because many of our other attacks are very conditional.

As far as the condition meta in PvP? Yes, I hear it’s a big problem. But in other game modes, condi spam isn’t a thing. Conditions may be king in PvP, but in PvE they are … lacking.

So most of these issues could be solved by skill splits … but then that causes the problem ANet wants to avoid. The problem of all skills acting entirely different in both PvE and PvP. And maybe WvW as well.

It’s honestly a logistical nightmare if you back up and look at it. Trying to balance skills around 4 distinct playstyles. PvE, WvW (zerging), WvW (roaming), and PvP (point defence). And getting all classes to be balanced across all of them. Is the best possible job being done? Probably not. Is the worst being done? Definitely not. We’re somewhere in the middle.

But I think it is up to ANet to decide how they’re going to solve the dilemma.

Great coommunications

Symbols for Guardians needs to be adressed. To trait them its 55 Points in two different trees.

Considering its one symbol per weapons (4 symbols) the investment is just to heavy to even bother using more than one symbol trait.

Merge all symbol traits in honor and move empowering might and elusive Power to zeal.

Or move all symbols to the staff and:

Give the healing effect and aoe damage of the orb to the third step of the hammer chain
Give empower to mace
Give line of warding to GS

I would prefer all symbols on the staff which also would give Guardians a valid ranged damage option in wvw. Someything we actually lack compared to the other professions in the game. And no scepter is only valid for duels/small groups and pve.

And for the hundred time, fix the broken buff you get from symbol of swiftness.

I really appreciate the transparency that you guys are starting to show. It’s a really great trend, and I urge you to keep it up.

I also really appreciate that conjure weapons are starting to get some more attention. They definitely do need more support options. The biggest problem with conjure weapons in my opinion, though, is the fact that you are really limiting the potential of the elementalist class by deciding to use one. The elementalist usually has 20 weapon skills to cycle through, but the moment you pick up a conjure weapon, you limit yourself to 5. The elementalist is also squishy enough that often times you really can’t get much use out of the conjure weapon before you have to drop it to go into water and heal. Really the only ones that see any use currently are lightning hammer and frost bow, and the idea for each of those is usually to buff yourself as much as you can, conjure the weapon, and do as much as you can before you are forced to drop it.

I saw someone else mention on this thread the idea of making elementalist conjure weapons their version of a weapon swap, and I think that would be a very elegant solution. When I summon a frost bow, let me be able to switch back and forth from my regular weapon set to the frost bow for the entire skill duration, or until it runs out of charges. This would make conjure weapons infinitely more useful as well as alleviate (to a certain extent) the complaint that most elementalists have had since launch about not having an out of combat weapon swap.

Personally, I have been on the side of the fence that argues there is no reason for eles NOT to have an out of combat weapon swap, but at the same time, I would be willing to give that position forever if you allowed us to “weapon swap” our conjure skills for the full duration or until we run out of charges.

JonathanSharp.7094:

Class balance:

Ranger
Sick ‘Em will now apply ‘Revealed” to enemies they target. We want to introduce some counter play to Stealth (players have asked for that for a while), so we thought a pet “catching your scent” might be a cool way to insinuate some anti-stealth into the game.

… Consider making it where this attack HITS and THEN it will apply revealed for a short time…not some ridiculously prolonged revealed like the bloody stealth disruptor trap in wvw. Make it same as if the thief attacked revealed duration. Revealed Make it for PvE Duration for WvW and PvE(though I doubt any pets in pve come across thieves or AI mobs with pets)

In order to keep the split as needed.

NoTrigger.8396:

Burnfall.9573:

What all i got from the OP, is this…. I Love you and will continue buy you presents but, the Abuse will still continue; with a smile on the face

The Irony and Tyranny of Thief abusive mechanics; Stealth Stommping, Over powered Heartseeker+Backstabs, Perma-stealth will still continue.

You can take your presents and your happy smile back; not Interested and Never will

Also take your Fake Love Back cause all you ever done for me was loving me with your Pain and Tyranny

When you’re Serious, I will see that in your Actions.

I will say again, Stop wasting your time!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzpndHtdl9A

All I got from YOUR quote on a quote was that you misunderstand that there are many other ways to not be effected by stomp interruptions. IE: Mist Form allows you to stomp and not get hit, Stability pretty much does the same, blind tanking to stop your enemy from interrupting your stomp….So, I hope you can look at other professions abilities to get a successful stomp. Stealth is not such a big deal, quit being kitten.

Asuka Shikinami.5462:

Small balence suggestions:

Stealth
- When someone exits stealth (not reveladed, just times out) add a 1 second revealed. This will make monitoring stealth more important and prevent Cloak And Dagger spam on pets (Mesmers/Rangers/Necro’s can dodge your CnD, but our pets can’t, it gives a huge advange to offhand dagger thieves).
- If someone makes an attack in stealth and it is blocked, it procs a 1s revaled. This makes managing stealth and positioning more valuable instead of just spamming backstab.

Many agreed on a post exactly like this before on a past update and that idea was shot down and made to what it is now in sPvP which is a 4 second revealed while PvE(and wvw) is unaffected. Stealth isnt the enemy, its the attack coming from stealth which breaks the stealth that hurts, just be on guard while a thief goes stealth, because its more than likely a very hard hit, so keep the Aegies up/blocks, it will deflect the majority of the damage and then you can withstand fights longer with a thief until he/she screws their moves up…Stare them in the eye, watch for patterns, use bluffing techniques, they are not AI, they are players, and humans(i hope) and eventually, their finger will get tired/someone will make a phone call to the person sitting behind that computer…just go with the flow.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Ruggan.4102:

All this BS about stealth needing a counter… there are counters to stealth… you just need to actually learn to use them.

The problem with thieves and stealth is…well, I’ll let these quotes do the talking for me.

“You can’t hit what you can’t see.” ~Walter Johnson (In GW2 you can, its magic!)
“You cannot dodge what you cannot see!” ~Gen (Sure you can, ever used block and didnt see what caused it? Happens all the time in GW2)

But to add to this, we need some REAL hard counters to stealth, something to get it off somebody. I really hope Sic ‘Em is changed to a pet damage increase for all its attacks for a certain amount of time, with the Reveal being an AoE around the pet of 900 range. If we can start seeing at least one skill that does that on at least half of the classes, you won’t see as much complaining from players about the ‘invincible’ thief.

2 things about the stealth complaints:

1: STEALTH is NOT thief only. Quit begging for nerfs to a mechanic that 4 classes use, just because one has some more entertaining ways to “annoy” you with it. Honestly I disapprove of the change cause most games that use stealth breakers also have classes that can actually perma stealth, GW2 doesn’t. Yes I have a thief ( i troll/harass/taunt with her in WvW, she has never killed anything 1v1, she cant), but I main a mesmer, and im in ill need of more nerfs to my favorite, and most played class that is currently the least played, and least used in PvP environments.

2: Adding hard counters BEGS the question for the developers of just what other hard counters do we need, it’s gonna be a pretty long list and that’s GOING to turn into a kitten you wouldn’t believe. Tweaks, yes, “shaves” yes. Just adding out right changes (counters) to core mechanics is just a bad idea no matter how you look at it.

Let’s take the thiefs stealth, then we can take the warrior’s weapons, the mesmer’s clones, the necro’s death….. Then we can all have the same stick character wielding the same stick weapon to beat on each other with.

Edit*: A final thought for when it comes to balancing although i know it’s not ever likely to happen here given current game design goals. There’s a phrase that rings true for balance, have a stable foundation and the top is also stable. If the foundation is unstable so is the top, the recent tournament events show this quite well. Bottom line: You want group play balanced, start at the bottom and balance 1v1, then everything else falls into place for the top to also be balanced with far less hassles and tweaks being needed.

Elementalist SUPPORT AND CONJURE BUFFS? Those are meaningless without SURVIVAL AND VIABILITY buffs.

Xovian.8572:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Ruggan.4102:

All this BS about stealth needing a counter… there are counters to stealth… you just need to actually learn to use them.

The problem with thieves and stealth is…well, I’ll let these quotes do the talking for me.

“You can’t hit what you can’t see.” ~Walter Johnson (In GW2 you can, its magic!)
“You cannot dodge what you cannot see!” ~Gen (Sure you can, ever used block and didnt see what caused it? Happens all the time in GW2)

But to add to this, we need some REAL hard counters to stealth, something to get it off somebody. I really hope Sic ‘Em is changed to a pet damage increase for all its attacks for a certain amount of time, with the Reveal being an AoE around the pet of 900 range. If we can start seeing at least one skill that does that on at least half of the classes, you won’t see as much complaining from players about the ‘invincible’ thief.

2 things about the stealth complaints:

1: STEALTH is NOT thief only. Quit begging for nerfs to a mechanic that 4 classes use, just because one has some more entertaining ways to “annoy” you with it. Honestly I disapprove of the change cause most games that use stealth breakers also have classes that can actually perma stealth, GW2 doesn’t. Yes I have a thief ( i troll/harass/taunt with her in WvW, she has never killed anything 1v1, she cant), but I main a mesmer, and im in ill need of more nerfs to my favorite, and most played class that is currently the least played, and least used in PvP environments.

2: Adding hard counters BEGS the question for the developers of just what other hard counters do we need, it’s gonna be a pretty long list and that’s GOING to turn into a kitten you wouldn’t believe. Tweaks, yes, “shaves” yes. Just adding out right changes (counters) to core mechanics is just a bad idea no matter how you look at it.

Let’s take the thiefs stealth, then we can take the warrior’s weapons, the mesmer’s clones, the necro’s death….. Then we can all have the same stick character wielding the same stick weapon to beat on each other with.

Nobody said anything about TAKING Stealth from thieves. Get your facts straight. They are introducing a COUNTER to Stealth, that is not REMOVING it.

If i counter Immobilize with condition removal, condition removal is a COUNTER to it, that does not make Immobilize USELESS.
If i counter Daze/Stun with Stunbreaker, Stunbreaker is a COUNTER to it, that does not make Daze/Stun USELESS.
If I counter Knockdown with Stability, Stability is a COUNTER to it, that does not make Knockdown USELESS.
If I counter Stability with boon removal, boon removal is a COUNTER to it, that does not make Stability USELESS.

Follow the trend. Want more?

Turtle Dragon.9241:

Follow the trend. Want more?

Sure, you didnt name one core ability, or at least abilities that are not shared by ALL.
Apples and oranges.

Xovian.8572:

Turtle Dragon.9241:

Follow the trend. Want more?

Sure, you didnt name one core ability, or at least abilities that are not shared by ALL.
Apples and oranges.

Thieves core ability is theft. Is their F1. They just utilize stealth greatly. More than any other, yes. But it is not their core ability.

JonathanSharp.7094:

Let us know what you think about them and we’ll take this into consideration. Some of these may not make it in for that release, but I wanted to give you guys a high level preview of what we’re working on and give you an opportunity to give us your feedback.

i think a high level preview of whats coming was what most people have ever wanted even if we knew not everything was going to make it. you will never please everyone with what you end up doing at least this gives people a chance to let you know what “we” think of the changes before they go live instead of watching patch go live with no idea what to expect then watching multiple threads explode over stuff while you guys try to do damage control.

I love that he got most of the the way through the professions spelling them in full (Warrior, Elementalist, etc), then was like: ahhh stuff it. Mes and Nec. :P

On topic: Liking the Engi changes. Looking forward to the patch.

Xovian.8572:

Turtle Dragon.9241:

Follow the trend. Want more?

Sure, you didnt name one core ability.

Aegis, the core ability of Guardians. Is countered by Boon Removal AND Unblockable.

If you say other classes have Aegis, I will say other classes have Stealth. kthxbai.

Moreover, Warriors now have a Unblockable with their Signet of Might. Other classes, including thief, have Unblockable attacks.

More than 1 class(Warrior, Necro, Mesmer and Engineer) has been a counter to a core ability of the Guardian that has a MINOR effect of blocking the next attack only.
Aegis has 2 types of counters on over 10 skills/traits.
1 class only is getting a counter to the core ability of the Thief that has a MAJOR effect of making them invisible.
Stealth is getting 1 type of counter on 1 skill.

More QQ plz.

SynfulChaot.3169:

selan.8354:

very true. i just tired of using the same stupid support utilities and be a kitten servant for war/guardians and necros. as long as mesmers dont get reliable aoe dmg that doesntrequire a kitten clone or phantasm or glam gets unnerfed, there is very little hope for mesmers in wvw. and honestly this sad state is pushing me away from the game more and more. i mean who wants to be forced to reroll because kitten anet nerfed your class to the ground and made other classes op and all u are allowed to do is kitten support. and all because of that stupid spvp! spvp destroyed wv balance and anet refuses to make certain wvw tweaks and mesmers wil be stuck in this sad wvw state forever, because of spvp.
i think there is no hope left for rangers and mesmers in wvw. but hey lets buff warriors shouts. its not like they are completely out of control in wvw already!

*shrug*

Eh. I main a ranger and I’ve refused to take her back into WvW since October. It’s just not worth my time as all I can really do is roam, which I hate doing. I, as a ranger, can’t really be good support in WvW zerg fights. And I’ve just not returned to WvW at all since as it’s just not the same if I’m forced to use an alt, so I know how you feel.

But at the same time it is obvious that they are starting to see the balance issues and I see several changes that show they’re willing to change things for the better. All we can do is wait and see how the changes progress. To see if they can bring more balance to modes seriously lacking it, esp. WvW and to a lesser extent PvE.

Until then I remain firmly PvE and RP only.

yeah rangers are in an even worse state then mesmers and this sucks. of course u dont wanna be a support only class. u wana tag and have fun zerg fighting and being able to tag.
it used to be soo much fun with our 13 mesmer group to destroy zergs with confusion bombs and coordinated portaling around them. of course they could destroy us, but it was fun to feel strong. well at that time nobody knew confusion and would mindlessly spam 111111 and that was what killed them. i wish there was something like that again that actually rewards coordinated skilled play and not just hammerwarrior mass zergs with necromark spam and guardian massretal.

i hope they buff rangers in wvw a lot as they really need it and also mesmers need a lot of rework in order to be viable in wvw again. it is not fun at all to be support only. our clones are too weak tu survive even a shatter attempt in a zergfight. so where is our aoe?
mantras? sry but this mechanic is still not working in a group fight as the casting can be interrupted and takes way too long.
rangers need more things that allow them to tag. the only time i really felt rangers being strong was during bm meta.
this has to be fixed. i really dont mind giving up a ton of phantasms if i get to play a build that work in wvw.

Moving Lung Capacity to tier 1 probably means something will be also moved from tier 1 to tier 2, and that will probably be empower allies to balance it with ranger “spotter”…
30 0 0 10 30 warriors will have to change something (30 0 0 20 15+5 optional points maybe)

SynfulChaot.3169:

Thieves core ability is theft. Is their F1. They just utilize stealth greatly. More than any other, yes. But it is not their core ability.

There’s a difference between the unique class ability and a core ability.

But at this point I’m too tired to keep arguing about it, the decision has already been made to put the counter in. I disagree with it, simply because i know how to kill a thief, yea it generally takes a long time. Have I been two shot sure i have, but i’ve had the same happen from warrior, and guardian too, then watch as a zerg chasing after them and cant catch them too. Solution to those was dont wear full berserker in pvp.

To each their own, the vocal minority will always harp more on the forums then those that think its working well enough.

Lord Kuru.3685:

Cactus.2710:

As an active player who has regularly criticized ANet for poor communication and springing crap on us we didn’t want, I have to strongly commend the OP for this huge step in the right direction. Well done.

They probably only released this because of the leaked update notes yesterday. I hope they really plan for better communication, but this is definitely not evidence either way that that’s the case.

My post gets removed, yet this stays. Consistency at its best.

Warrior changes are amazing, however every warrior will now be shout in wvw. Makes me pretty sad. Also, guardians with fury? Give protection. Seriously, maybe make healing signet on use give 5 seconds so we have a choice about what we want, healing over time or spike protection.

Interesting changes coming up, but one thing (among many) I would like to see is the removal of the trait reanimator. I’m sure you’re aware that virtually no one actually like it, and it activating after you killing something makes it really just forgettable, outside of the rare HEROIC meat shield against a CC by the rat monkey.

I suggested this after the change to damage bleeding through Life force into HP, but I think replacing reanimator (or if not, putting it somewhere else) with a trait to give aegis on entering DS. This would give us back that ability to block a large hit with DS, but would require much more intelligent usage of DS to actually make it count; it would be an active trait that requires intelligent use, instead of passive ‘free rat monkey’ after kills.

Xovian.8572:

There’s a difference between the unique class ability and a core ability.

Each class has a unique ability and that’s it. I call the their core ability. Yes, thieves use stealth, but so do mesmers and rangers. Yes, guardians use aegis, but so do mesmers. Everything outside of the ‘class’ abilities, all other special abilities, are shared by more than one class.

Saying one should be untouched is saying that you think that ability is so special that it needs to get treated differently. To treat the class the utilizes it the most specially and protect it. Now I can understand and agree if you feel that way about the class abilities. But I cannot understand nor agree about the same being said of any mechanic that is not single class specific.

Xovian.8572:

To each their own, the vocal minority will always harp more on the forums then those that think its working well enough.

Actually, I believe it’s the vocal minority that wants stealth to remain untouched. But that’s just how I see (and hear) it. *shrug*

No mention of a fix for the WvW lag. With out this these updates mean nothing.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Each class has a unique ability and that’s it. I call the their core ability. Yes, thieves use stealth, but so do mesmers and rangers. Yes, guardians use aegis, but so do mesmers. Everything outside of the ‘class’ abilities, all other special abilities, are shared by more than one class.

Simply a difference of opinion.
I’d say poison is a core ability of a thief too, life stealing, same for Necromancers.
Not saying a core ability can’t be shared but for me it doesn’t change the fact they are abilities/traits and skills (including weapon skills) that define that class. There are builds that build around them and define one of the ways the class is played. Simply saying an ability of any one kind doesn’t define a class or their “core” abilities to me. How they interact does.

Like i said, just a different take on the words used.

ozzieballista.8015:

No mention of a fix for the WvW lag. With out this these updates mean nothing.

May I ask what wvw lag you experience? The general 80v80 lag that is server load issues or even when small roaming etc? Because if its wvw lag in general then thats a hardware issue on your end….this game is heavily CPU orientated. If its only in the big skirmishes etc then thats going to happen regardless, theres very limited options they can do when 80 people clash with 80 others….what they can do is attempt to encourage smaller group play instead of zerging….which ironically they are working on that =)

Xovian.8572:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Each class has a unique ability and that’s it. I call the their core ability. Yes, thieves use stealth, but so do mesmers and rangers. Yes, guardians use aegis, but so do mesmers. Everything outside of the ‘class’ abilities, all other special abilities, are shared by more than one class.

Simply a difference of opinion.
I’d say poison is a core ability of a thief too, life stealing, same for Necromancers.
Not saying a core ability can’t be shared but for me it doesn’t change the fact they are abilities/traits and skills (including weapon skills) that define that class. There are builds that build around them and define one of the ways the class is played. Simply saying an ability of any one kind doesn’t define a class or their “core” abilities to me. How they interact does.

Like i said, just a different take on the words used.

Difference of opinion on wording alone, but otherwise I agree.

I just hold that none of these abilities deserves any special protection that the others do not also get.

I disagree entirely with the change to “Sic EM”. I don’t think that’s the direction this game should be headed. Being able to disable core mechanics is a no go for me. Stealth is a core mechanic, and the introduction of Sic Em is like having an ability to disable

- Guardian Virtues
- Mesmer Clones
- Ranger Pets
- Warrior Adrenaline
- Necro Deathshroud
- Engi kits
- Ele Attunement swap

with the use of a single skill, specifically aimed at that class. While some may argue that thieves aren’t the only players who can use stealth, they still are the only class who relies heavily on it, and without, cannot survive (see P/P or S/P).

I also don’t agree with the “no counter” to stealth argument, because aside from D/P, any dagger offhand build that relies on stealth is easily countered by dodging CnD, blocking CnD, or blinding the thief, even well timed CCs. On my guardian I found that I could effectively deny a thief much of his stealth simply by negating Cloak And Dagger. Even D/P has it’s counters through the use of pulls and pushes.

Giving a passive ability to ranger pets which would allow them to see and attack stealthed enemies is a good idea, allowing said pet to reveal enemy is not.

Overall, I feel like this patch is aimed at hitting thieves pretty hard, while ignoring the fact that thieves lack the viability for zerg gameplay. Thieves aren’t given the buffs they need to be useful. That’s the reason why I rerolled as a guardian main in WvW. Venom share is not enough. Not nearly. In fact a venom share build gimps the thief of other trait lines which are more useful in WvW. Most hardcore guilds aren’t even recruiting thieves anymore. Alot will shun you for being a thief, simply because you rally the enemy and are all but useless, when compared to the winners of WvW(eles, guardians, necros). Roaming and taking camps/killing yaks is the final option and last frontier for thieves trying to be useful in WvW. Why are you trying to take that away? At least give thieves something in return.

Just my opinion…

I hope that update to thief pistol mainhand actually makes it viable since thieves are getting nerfed yet again, while warriors still get never-ending buffs that they don’t deserve or need.
The only reason people complained about flanking strike was because it made bunkering harder for pvp babies, and, as usual in any MMO or really any game that includes a stealth-based class, people just have to call for nerfs.

I’m sick of nerfs. I shouldn’t have to use food buffs and D/D to be viable in world versus world, and spvp is going to be more of a pain since flanking strike is going to be nerfed yet again, while bunkers still reign supreme. Or condition stacking, but that’s another issue entirely, at least until the update hits and rangers are suddenly able to reveal thieves and disable a core mechanic at the push of a button. The counter to stealthing is being a good player, but there’s a severe lack of those in this game.

Again, I hope that pistol update makes it so I can actually use pistols without being laughed at. Maybe I’ll be able to disable mesmer clones, or halve the damage output of a warrior with it.
But since it’s not a change to “unload” then I’m just going to assume it’s an update to bodyshot that doesn’t change the functionality of pistols in the slightest. Especially dual pistols, which you need to build all of your traits around just to function, poorly.

Thieves still have nothing at all to deal with the MASSIVE cc and AOE and DoTs we see in wvw, thus we are STILL useless in group play it seems. No stability available, no dot reduction and ONE stun break does not really count.

Doomdesire.9365:

I disagree entirely with the change to “Sic EM”. I don’t think that’s the direction this game should be headed. Being able to disable core mechanics is a no go for me. Stealth is a core mechanic, and the introduction of Sic Em is like having an ability to disable

- Guardian Virtues
- Mesmer Clones
- Ranger Pets
- Warrior Adrenaline
- Necro Deathshroud
- Engi kits
- Ele Attunement swap

with the use of a single skill, specifically aimed at that class. While some may argue that thieves aren’t the only players who can use stealth, they still are the only class who relies heavily on it, and without, cannot survive (see P/P or S/P).

I also don’t agree with the “no counter” to stealth argument, because aside from D/P, any dagger offhand build that relies on stealth is easily countered by dodging CnD, blocking CnD, or blinding the thief, even well timed CCs. On my guardian I found that I could effectively deny a thief much of his stealth simply by negating Cloak And Dagger. Even D/P has it’s counters through the use of pulls and pushes.

Giving a passive ability to ranger pets which would allow them to see and attack stealthed enemies is a good idea, allowing said pet to reveal enemy is not.

Just my opinion…

Stealth is NOT Thief’s “core mechanic”, Steal and Initiative are.

darkace.8925:

Doomdesire.9365:

I disagree entirely with the change to “Sic EM”. I don’t think that’s the direction this game should be headed. Being able to disable core mechanics is a no go for me. Stealth is a core mechanic, and the introduction of Sic Em is like having an ability to disable

- Guardian Virtues
- Mesmer Clones
- Ranger Pets
- Warrior Adrenaline
- Necro Deathshroud
- Engi kits
- Ele Attunement swap

with the use of a single skill, specifically aimed at that class. While some may argue that thieves aren’t the only players who can use stealth, they still are the only class who relies heavily on it, and without, cannot survive (see P/P or S/P).

I also don’t agree with the “no counter” to stealth argument, because aside from D/P, any dagger offhand build that relies on stealth is easily countered by dodging CnD, blocking CnD, or blinding the thief, even well timed CCs. On my guardian I found that I could effectively deny a thief much of his stealth simply by negating Cloak And Dagger. Even D/P has it’s counters through the use of pulls and pushes.

Giving a passive ability to ranger pets which would allow them to see and attack stealthed enemies is a good idea, allowing said pet to reveal enemy is not.

Just my opinion…

Stealth is NOT Thief’s “core mechanic”, Steal and Initiative are.

Oh boy, so at best a shadow step and the remnants of a mana system that was long since scrapped are our core mechanics, and not the very thing that allows thieves to last longer than five seconds in a fight.

Saying stealth isn’t the thief’s core mechanic is like saying that the engineer’s core mechanic isn’t swapping through kits since they have toolbelt skills.

Sorry if this has been mentioned already. Didnt read the whole thread.

Although these patch notes didnt specifically say that empower allies is going to the master tier the leaked notes did mention it. I think its best if it stayed at adept tier as to not hurt certain support specs and make it less acessible for people not speccing far into the tactics traitline but still want some form of group support. Other candidates that can go into the adept tier would be stronger bowstrings and merge it with burning arrows. Changing it to be 10% more damage with any weapon if the target has burning. This frees up a trait slot that could be 20% reduced cooldown on stances and grant 4s swiftness on use.

Also, are you looking at perplexity runes? they are currently insanely strong and pretty much ruins roaming whenever someone decides to equip it.

Doomdesire.9365:

I disagree entirely with the change to “Sic EM”. I don’t think that’s the direction this game should be headed. Being able to counter core mechanics is a no go for me. Stealth is a core mechanic, and the introduction of Sic Em is like having an ability to disable

- Guardian Virtues
- Mesmer Clones
- Ranger Pets
- Warrior Adrenaline
- Necro Deathshroud
- Engi kits
- Ele Attunement swap

I also don’t agree with the “no counter” to stealth argument, because aside from D/P, any dagger offhand build that relies on stealth is easily countered by dodging CnD, blocking CnD, or blinding the thief. On my guardian I found that I could effectively deny a thief much of his stealth simply by negating Cloak And Dagger. Even D/P has it’s counters through the use of pulls and pushes.

Giving a passive ability to ranger pets which would allow them to see and attack stealthed enemies is a good idea, allowing said pet to reveal enemy is not.

Just my opinion…

I’m sorry, but Stealth is NOT a core mechanic of Thieves.
Steal is a Thief’s core mechanic
Sneak Attack is a Thief’s core mechanic
No Recharge(Initiative) on weapon skills is a Thief’s core mechanic

Stealth is NOT a Thief’s core mechanic

Sneak Attack does require Stealth to work, true. But stopping a Thief from using Sneak Attacks by using Sic Em, is arguably the same as using Corrupt Boon on a Guardian who has Aegis. Or blocking a pet’s attack, or blocking a Warrior’s Burst skill, or killing a Mesmer’s clone.

Thus we should have Aegis not be a boon anymore and guarantee to even block unblockable attacks, pets are now unblockable and immune to immobilize, Warriors have unblockable, well, undodgeable too Burst skills, and Mesmer clones are officially Invulnerable.

darkace.8925:

Doomdesire.9365:

I disagree entirely with the change to “Sic EM”. I don’t think that’s the direction this game should be headed. Being able to disable core mechanics is a no go for me. Stealth is a core mechanic, and the introduction of Sic Em is like having an ability to disable

- Guardian Virtues
- Mesmer Clones
- Ranger Pets
- Warrior Adrenaline
- Necro Deathshroud
- Engi kits
- Ele Attunement swap

with the use of a single skill, specifically aimed at that class. While some may argue that thieves aren’t the only players who can use stealth, they still are the only class who relies heavily on it, and without, cannot survive (see P/P or S/P).

I also don’t agree with the “no counter” to stealth argument, because aside from D/P, any dagger offhand build that relies on stealth is easily countered by dodging CnD, blocking CnD, or blinding the thief, even well timed CCs. On my guardian I found that I could effectively deny a thief much of his stealth simply by negating Cloak And Dagger. Even D/P has it’s counters through the use of pulls and pushes.

Giving a passive ability to ranger pets which would allow them to see and attack stealthed enemies is a good idea, allowing said pet to reveal enemy is not.

Just my opinion…

Stealth is NOT Thief’s “core mechanic”, Steal and Initiative are.

All three are a core mechanic. Steal and initiative by itself isn’t enough. Roll a S/P or P/P thief and you will see, without stealth thieves are all but useless. While there are some builds such as jumper’s S/D and the D/D evade build, they simply aren’t viable outside of spvp. Not to mention that stealth has an entire trait line for thief. If that doesn’t prove it’s a core mechanic then nothing will.

Turtle Dragon.9241:

Doomdesire.9365:

I disagree entirely with the change to “Sic EM”. I don’t think that’s the direction this game should be headed. Being able to counter core mechanics is a no go for me. Stealth is a core mechanic, and the introduction of Sic Em is like having an ability to disable

- Guardian Virtues
- Mesmer Clones
- Ranger Pets
- Warrior Adrenaline
- Necro Deathshroud
- Engi kits
- Ele Attunement swap

I also don’t agree with the “no counter” to stealth argument, because aside from D/P, any dagger offhand build that relies on stealth is easily countered by dodging CnD, blocking CnD, or blinding the thief. On my guardian I found that I could effectively deny a thief much of his stealth simply by negating Cloak And Dagger. Even D/P has it’s counters through the use of pulls and pushes.

Giving a passive ability to ranger pets which would allow them to see and attack stealthed enemies is a good idea, allowing said pet to reveal enemy is not.

Just my opinion…

I’m sorry, but Stealth is NOT a core mechanic of Thieves.
Steal is a Thief’s core mechanic
Sneak Attack is a Thief’s core mechanic
No Recharge(Initiative) on weapon skills is a Thief’s core mechanic

Stealth is NOT a Thief’s core mechanic

Sneak Attack does require Stealth to work, true. But stopping a Thief from using Sneak Attacks by using Sic Em, is arguably the same as using Corrupt Boon on a Guardian who has Aegis. Or blocking a pet’s attack, or blocking a Warrior’s Burst skill, or killing a Mesmer’s clone.

Thus we should have Aegis not be a boon anymore and guarantee to even block unblockable attacks, pets are now unblockable and immune to immobilize, Warriors have unblockable, well, undodgeable too Burst skills, and Mesmer clones are officially Invulnerable.

You can block a CnD, blind him, or CC him to prevent stealth, as well as block the backstab, can you not?

If initiative and steal was the main mechanic in which thieves were supposed to be based on, then Anet did a poor job at balance, because a steal based thief with initiative traits performs extremely poorly, which is why you don’t see any thief running it. At least not very often.

Turtle Dragon.9241:

Doomdesire.9365:

I disagree entirely with the change to “Sic EM”. I don’t think that’s the direction this game should be headed. Being able to counter core mechanics is a no go for me. Stealth is a core mechanic, and the introduction of Sic Em is like having an ability to disable

- Guardian Virtues
- Mesmer Clones
- Ranger Pets
- Warrior Adrenaline
- Necro Deathshroud
- Engi kits
- Ele Attunement swap

I also don’t agree with the “no counter” to stealth argument, because aside from D/P, any dagger offhand build that relies on stealth is easily countered by dodging CnD, blocking CnD, or blinding the thief. On my guardian I found that I could effectively deny a thief much of his stealth simply by negating Cloak And Dagger. Even D/P has it’s counters through the use of pulls and pushes.

Giving a passive ability to ranger pets which would allow them to see and attack stealthed enemies is a good idea, allowing said pet to reveal enemy is not.

Just my opinion…

I’m sorry, but Stealth is NOT a core mechanic of Thieves.
Steal is a Thief’s core mechanic
Sneak Attack is a Thief’s core mechanic
No Recharge(Initiative) on weapon skills is a Thief’s core mechanic

Stealth is NOT a Thief’s core mechanic

Sneak Attack does require Stealth to work, true. But stopping a Thief from using Sneak Attacks by using Sic Em, is arguably the same as using Corrupt Boon on a Guardian who has Aegis.

No, it isn’t. Thieves don’t stealth just to use sneak attack. Stealthing is the ONLY survivalist method thieves have outside of blind spam, and that’s only doable with offhand pistol. A stealth-based thief will be completely crippled because a ranger has a single skill on their utility bar, and will then be left defenseless since he didn’t spec in to the acrobatics line and only has two dodges, with a maximum of four or five if using sword/dagger.

The way these thieves are crying its like they expect half the people in wvw to be rangers running sic’ em.
I like this utility idea. Rangers need some ability to stop heavy dps pressure on them. I expect it to work well with bows.

raahk.2786:

No, it isn’t. Thieves don’t stealth just to use sneak attack. Stealthing is the ONLY survivalist method thieves have outside of blind spam, and that’s only doable with offhand pistol. A stealth-based thief will be completely crippled because a ranger has a single skill on their utility bar, and will then be left defenseless since he didn’t spec in to the acrobatics line and only has two dodges, with a maximum of four or five if using sword/dagger.

So a single skill. A single skill on a 40 second timer will completely invalidate a thief? A skill only one class gets? Really? Hmm. Seems fishy to me.

Doomdesire.9365:

darkace.8925:

Doomdesire.9365:

I disagree entirely with the change to “Sic EM”. I don’t think that’s the direction this game should be headed. Being able to disable core mechanics is a no go for me. Stealth is a core mechanic, and the introduction of Sic Em is like having an ability to disable

- Guardian Virtues
- Mesmer Clones
- Ranger Pets
- Warrior Adrenaline
- Necro Deathshroud
- Engi kits
- Ele Attunement swap

with the use of a single skill, specifically aimed at that class. While some may argue that thieves aren’t the only players who can use stealth, they still are the only class who relies heavily on it, and without, cannot survive (see P/P or S/P).

I also don’t agree with the “no counter” to stealth argument, because aside from D/P, any dagger offhand build that relies on stealth is easily countered by dodging CnD, blocking CnD, or blinding the thief, even well timed CCs. On my guardian I found that I could effectively deny a thief much of his stealth simply by negating Cloak And Dagger. Even D/P has it’s counters through the use of pulls and pushes.

Giving a passive ability to ranger pets which would allow them to see and attack stealthed enemies is a good idea, allowing said pet to reveal enemy is not.

Just my opinion…

Stealth is NOT Thief’s “core mechanic”, Steal and Initiative are.

All three are a core mechanic. Steal and initiative by itself isn’t enough. Roll a S/P or P/P thief and you will see, without stealth thieves are all but useless. While there are some builds such as jumper’s S/D and the D/D evade build, they simply aren’t viable outside of spvp. Not to mention that stealth has an entire trait line for thief. If that doesn’t prove it’s a core mechanic then nothing will.

Thieves being useless without Stealth =/= Stealth being a core mechanic of Thieves.

I could claim that Warriors are useless without the ability to remove Cripple/Immobilize/Chill, that does not make Snare Removal a core mechanic of the Warrior.
And Warriors really are useless without Snare Removals.

SynfulChaot.3169:

raahk.2786:

No, it isn’t. Thieves don’t stealth just to use sneak attack. Stealthing is the ONLY survivalist method thieves have outside of blind spam, and that’s only doable with offhand pistol. A stealth-based thief will be completely crippled because a ranger has a single skill on their utility bar, and will then be left defenseless since he didn’t spec in to the acrobatics line and only has two dodges, with a maximum of four or five if using sword/dagger.

So a single skill. A single skill on a 40 second timer will completely invalidate a thief? Really? Hmm. Seems fishy to me.

Considering the burst available to a ranger, the conditions, and how easy it is to be downed as thief, then I’d say yes, at least if the thief is stealth-based. You’ve obviously never played as thief.

Turtle Dragon.9241:

Doomdesire.9365:

darkace.8925:

Doomdesire.9365:

I disagree entirely with the change to “Sic EM”. I don’t think that’s the direction this game should be headed. Being able to disable core mechanics is a no go for me. Stealth is a core mechanic, and the introduction of Sic Em is like having an ability to disable

- Guardian Virtues
- Mesmer Clones
- Ranger Pets
- Warrior Adrenaline
- Necro Deathshroud
- Engi kits
- Ele Attunement swap

with the use of a single skill, specifically aimed at that class. While some may argue that thieves aren’t the only players who can use stealth, they still are the only class who relies heavily on it, and without, cannot survive (see P/P or S/P).

I also don’t agree with the “no counter” to stealth argument, because aside from D/P, any dagger offhand build that relies on stealth is easily countered by dodging CnD, blocking CnD, or blinding the thief, even well timed CCs. On my guardian I found that I could effectively deny a thief much of his stealth simply by negating Cloak And Dagger. Even D/P has it’s counters through the use of pulls and pushes.

Giving a passive ability to ranger pets which would allow them to see and attack stealthed enemies is a good idea, allowing said pet to reveal enemy is not.

Just my opinion…

Stealth is NOT Thief’s “core mechanic”, Steal and Initiative are.

All three are a core mechanic. Steal and initiative by itself isn’t enough. Roll a S/P or P/P thief and you will see, without stealth thieves are all but useless. While there are some builds such as jumper’s S/D and the D/D evade build, they simply aren’t viable outside of spvp. Not to mention that stealth has an entire trait line for thief. If that doesn’t prove it’s a core mechanic then nothing will.

Thieves being useless without Stealth =/= Stealth being a core mechanic of Thieves.

I could claim that Warriors are useless without the ability to remove Cripple/Immobilize/Chill, that does not make Snare Removal a core mechanic of the Warrior.
And Warriors really are useless without Snare Removals.

You haven’t explained why stealth isn’t a core mechanic yet. All you’ve done is say it isn’t and bring up an example that really doesn’t make sense. There are viable builds without snare removal for warriors. I don’t supposed you’ve ever seen a perplexity CC spamming warrior, have you?

Stealth has an entire trait line for thieves. How is that not a core mechanic? There isn’t any entire trait line devoted to snare removal for warriors. The comparison doesn’t make sense.

Turtle Dragon.9241:

Doomdesire.9365:

darkace.8925:

Doomdesire.9365:

I disagree entirely with the change to “Sic EM”. I don’t think that’s the direction this game should be headed. Being able to disable core mechanics is a no go for me. Stealth is a core mechanic, and the introduction of Sic Em is like having an ability to disable

- Guardian Virtues
- Mesmer Clones
- Ranger Pets
- Warrior Adrenaline
- Necro Deathshroud
- Engi kits
- Ele Attunement swap

with the use of a single skill, specifically aimed at that class. While some may argue that thieves aren’t the only players who can use stealth, they still are the only class who relies heavily on it, and without, cannot survive (see P/P or S/P).

I also don’t agree with the “no counter” to stealth argument, because aside from D/P, any dagger offhand build that relies on stealth is easily countered by dodging CnD, blocking CnD, or blinding the thief, even well timed CCs. On my guardian I found that I could effectively deny a thief much of his stealth simply by negating Cloak And Dagger. Even D/P has it’s counters through the use of pulls and pushes.

Giving a passive ability to ranger pets which would allow them to see and attack stealthed enemies is a good idea, allowing said pet to reveal enemy is not.

Just my opinion…

Stealth is NOT Thief’s “core mechanic”, Steal and Initiative are.

All three are a core mechanic. Steal and initiative by itself isn’t enough. Roll a S/P or P/P thief and you will see, without stealth thieves are all but useless. While there are some builds such as jumper’s S/D and the D/D evade build, they simply aren’t viable outside of spvp. Not to mention that stealth has an entire trait line for thief. If that doesn’t prove it’s a core mechanic then nothing will.

Thieves being useless without Stealth =/= Stealth being a core mechanic of Thieves.

I could claim that Warriors are useless without the ability to remove Cripple/Immobilize/Chill, that does not make Snare Removal a core mechanic of the Warrior.
And Warriors really are useless without Snare Removals.

We have an entire trait line devoted to stealth, that isn’t an accurate or fair comparison in the least.

Here is what Anet should do. Make an animation that is easily seen for the sic em utility. All the thief has to do then is simply not stand there. Please don’t give in to the qq Anet.

FrownyClown.8402:

Here is what Anet should do. Make an animation that is easily seen for the sic em utility. All the thief has to do then is simply not stand there. Please don’t give in to the qq Anet.

Or not make it give a thief the revealed debuff at all, that could work too.

I’m seriously surprised that the playerbase has been complaining about thieves for this long to the point where they need to make a destealth skill.
You would’ve thought that players would’ve learned how to counter a thief, at this point.
At least I know the good ones already do.

I mean, channeled abilities still hit thieves long after they stealthed, which is unfair in itself. Mesmer greatsword, rapid fire, anything channeled. You can blind a thief in stealth, you can still hit them. There isn’t a need for this. Thieves need to be buffed. We’re still getting screwed over by the last refuge trait, and some of our traits don’t even work, as in they’re bugged and have been since launch. Most of our grandmaster traits are completely useless as well, outside of the two in the critical arts line and the one in shadow arts.