Guild Wars 2

More wishes:

Warhorn for the Guardian (Point-Blank AoE heals/condition removal, buffs/conditions for enemies).

Longer range for the staff #1 skill for the guardian (double it!)

More ranged options for the guardian.

On edit: also better run speed for the guardian (100% of the time). Maybe through a trait or sigil. We have Retreat which is good for a short burst. But frequently my Guardian is playing catch up to the group in wvw. Eles get better speed in air, rangers can trait for better run speed, etc.

Meadfreek.6789:

More wishes:

Warhorn for the Guardian (Point-Blank AoE heals/condition removal, buffs/conditions for enemies).

Longer range for the staff #1 skill for the guardian (double it!)

More ranged options for the guardian.

They did state that they were adding more weapons to different professions, and in one interview they stated that they wished for every class to have access to every weapon, and also that they wanted to be able to add a few new ones to each class before the end of the year, but I doubt the October update will include that and I really doubt that they’ll do it at all.

I’d really love to have thief rifle so we have a form of range that we can use to do more then just kite with.

raahk.2786:

They did state that they were adding more weapons to different professions, and in one interview they stated that they wished for every class to have access to every weapon, and also that they wanted to be able to add a few new ones to each class before the end of the year, but I doubt the October update will include that and I really doubt that they’ll do it at all.

I’d really love to have thief rifle so we have a form of range that we can use to do more then just kite with.

As much as I don’t agree with all of your posts regarding the stealth counter, I agree very much with thieves getting a 1200 range weapon. Right now, IIRC, thieves are the only class that has no real access to that range. And that is a shame.

NoTrigger.8396:

did you know ele deals the most dps in pve?

No I never use my Ele in PVE well haven’t since leveling her up 10-11 months ago. So I can’t agree or disagree with you on that statement. I just think the class needs more balance between DPS & Support with in its viable builds. My play style is geared towards consistent pressure. I do not zerker or bunker but I find with the Ele class you tend to need to lean towards bunker due to low Hp.

SynfulChaot.3169:

raahk.2786:

They did state that they were adding more weapons to different professions, and in one interview they stated that they wished for every class to have access to every weapon, and also that they wanted to be able to add a few new ones to each class before the end of the year, but I doubt the October update will include that and I really doubt that they’ll do it at all.

I’d really love to have thief rifle so we have a form of range that we can use to do more then just kite with.

As much as I don’t agree with all of your posts regarding the stealth counter, I agree very much with thieves getting a 1200 range weapon. Right now, IIRC, thieves are the only class that has no real access to that range. And that is a shame.

Yeah, guess I overreacted a bit since they’re effectively nerfing my favorite class into the ground while continuing to buff their pet class (that hasn’t received a much needed nerf since launch iirc). I like that other guy’s idea about getting some compensation in some other builds, because honestly most of our grandmaster traits outside the two in critical arts and the one in shadow arts are completely pointless, but having a rifle or something to get that 1200 range would be a nice change.

Then again, they’d probably just nerf that too, since thief is probably the most complained about class, especially by people that only play world versus world and not Spvp, where a thief is truly being shafted right now.

Regarding the Thief profession, at first it made me mad that yet another nerf is on the way (what’s new, right?) but after i thought about it, its not that bad, remember when the skill missed 90% of the time? well now at least it lands so… by keeping the same dps and still being able to steal 1 boon is a very good skill! i know we are use to it stealing 2 boons but… kitten it is still a very good skill.

What i feel it is needed at the moment is making other weapon sets better, i still see a few ppl running with P/D and D/D but in a competitive environment, non of this weapon sets are good, tbh, besides S/D there is no other weapon set that can keep a thief alive long enough to kill its enemy.

Stealth use to be very good but not anymore 4sec reveled is to much to relie on for survivability atm only Acrobatics provide such survivability.

I feel thieves are cornered… they cant go full GC because they will not live long enough to kill there enemy unless they are also GC. IMO the GC speced player’s “defense” (regardless of the profession) is killing before getting killed, at the moment that is impossible for all professions, anyone can outlast a GC.

The thief that specs for control (full shadow arts with D/P or D/D) is not viable either because of the 4sec reveled, without acrobatics he cant live very long and if you go shadow arts + acrobatics the dps will be so low that will allow the enemy to “control” the fight and survive long enough to use its healing ability time after time.

TL;DR:
I’m ok with the nerf to the S/D weapon set and the buff to ranger pets, but I do believe that the other weapon sets (all of them) should also be looked at and improved. Obviously including the Short Bow.

raahk.2786:

Meadfreek.6789:

More wishes:

Warhorn for the Guardian (Point-Blank AoE heals/condition removal, buffs/conditions for enemies).

Longer range for the staff #1 skill for the guardian (double it!)

More ranged options for the guardian.

They did state that they were adding more weapons to different professions, and in one interview they stated that they wished for every class to have access to every weapon, and also that they wanted to be able to add a few new ones to each class before the end of the year, but I doubt the October update will include that and I really doubt that they’ll do it at all.

I’d really love to have thief rifle so we have a form of range that we can use to do more then just kite with.

I really like the idea of a rifle for Thief. Like a sniper archetype (since sniper are kinda stealthy anyways). That way they wouldn’t have to rely on stealth as much.

If there is one thing I must say is that I hope the Mesmer illusions are seeing a large health buff as well. I saw previously in some claimed “leaked” notes that they will not. This is not acceptable since the health buff to our illusions I still find my berserker and duelist being one-shotted by the Flame Effigy’s self explosion-like attack at the end of CoF P1, which only does like 6k damage to my glass mesmer.

Not to mention open world leveling of mesmers is still one of the poorest class experiences to date. This is not even subjective at this point, I guarantee any poll will tell you this as I hear complaints from people all the time about how weak the mesmer is when leveling it early on. We need this buff too.

Meadfreek.6789:

raahk.2786:

Meadfreek.6789:

More wishes:

Warhorn for the Guardian (Point-Blank AoE heals/condition removal, buffs/conditions for enemies).

Longer range for the staff #1 skill for the guardian (double it!)

More ranged options for the guardian.

They did state that they were adding more weapons to different professions, and in one interview they stated that they wished for every class to have access to every weapon, and also that they wanted to be able to add a few new ones to each class before the end of the year, but I doubt the October update will include that and I really doubt that they’ll do it at all.

I’d really love to have thief rifle so we have a form of range that we can use to do more then just kite with.

I really like the idea of a rifle for Thief. Like a sniper archetype (since sniper are kinda stealthy anyways). That way they wouldn’t have to rely on stealth as much.

Yeah, it’s one of the few things I’ve wanted in this game since launch. Having that 1200 range would make a great difference, but I’d still like to see other weaponsets buffed if they’re going to continue to nerf the only reliable ones.
Or make it so D/P P/D do more then just bleed, since that’s really the only condition thieves are capable of applying consistently.

Adding better ranger traits, would be great, especially in teh beastmaster trait line, I would like to play more beast master and have a strong pet in pve. But the trait doesn;t cut it, epescially the specific pets special skills, theres too many in beast master line – which are utterly useless. It should be combined instead. Also the pet traits, for dmg or pet speed and etc are all spread out into different trait line for the ranger, which can be sometimes frustrating or difficult to create a viable build for ranger, that lives up to par with other classes in pve, like warriors or ele.

I really like that rangers now have a stealth skill – from their longbow, which was so crucially needed. Having one more would for sure help, ie: camoflouge utility skill?
ranger’s pet to sniff out target in stealth is great add on also, there are times where the pet would stop chasing and stand idle after an enemy goes into stealth, leaving teh ranger vulnerable to a spiek attack and gank.

raahk.2786:

Then again, they’d probably just nerf that too, since thief is probably the most complained about class, especially by people that only play world versus world and not Spvp, where a thief is truly being shafted right now.

Most likely on the balance change being due to WvW. But thieves aren’t the only class in that boat. Warriors used to weak be in PvP, thus their constant buffs that made them OP everywhere else. Rangers still are in late-game PvE (comparatively to the other classes).

I don’t think they intend to nerf just because. They do it because they see an issue. And if you don’t see perma-thieves as an issue then you need to step back from your class a bit and look at the big picture.

Nova.8021:

If there is one thing I must say is that I hope the Mesmer illusions are seeing a large health buff as well. I saw previously in some claimed “leaked” notes that they will not. This is not acceptable since the health buff to our illusions I still find my berserker and duelist being one-shotted by the Flame Effigy’s self explosion-like attack at the end of CoF P1, which only does like 6k damage to my glass mesmer.

I don’t think they are as they received that buff a few months ago to the illusions. I believe that that was the testing ground for this new pet/minion buff for the other classes.

Nova.8021:

Not to mention open world leveling of mesmers is still one of the poorest class experiences to date. This is not even subjective at this point, I guarantee any poll will tell you this as I hear complaints from people all the time about how weak the mesmer is when leveling it early on. We need this buff too.

While I agree that mesmers are a bit squishy and weak while levelling, I won’t agree that they don’t come into their own at later levels. The problem is that early on the skills are just not very good without the corresponding traits to which you don’t yet have access to. But as you unlock those traits the mesmer’s playability goes up immensely until at level 60 the open world poses you little challenge.

I hold that elementalists and thieves are equally weak while levelling until they receive their traits as well.

I wish to have in trait window the button Save , so I can more experiment with trait settings and when I am happy with new build, then I want save it. Now, when I assign a point in some trait line, so the point is actually saved and I have to reset all traits if I want make some small change. There should be chance to spend and return points before whole build is complete set.

Amrio.6213:

I wish to have in trait window the button Save , so I can more experiment with trait settings and when I am happy with new build, then I want save it. Now, when I assign a point in some trait line, so the point is actually saved and I have to reset all traits if I want make some small change. There should be chance to spend and return points before whole build is complete set.

Great suggestion!

Also on the note of Engy turrets; this is good news

On the thief pistol, I say you guys should just make a bunch of abilities and allow us to swap them out. You know how happy that would make the playerbase? Oh do I wish I could throw away the mesmer greatsword 2 and 3 for something harder hitting without condition effects.

I dont have anything to add really.

Just wanted to say thanks for sharing with the community ahead of time so we could provide input.

It will be interesting to see what will be different for the ranger weapons.

I hope that the there will be come movement impairing effects added to help the rangers pets land their attacks, ideally at the expense of rangers natural (base) vitality/thoroughness which could come down to be honest.

If you want to know what I think about the ranger pet skills click below

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/PvP-could-do-without-some-pet-skills/first#post2760554

Also I hope its not too cheeky to add but I saw on some allegedly leaked patch notes that the ’Companion’s Defence’ trait (protection on dodge roll ranger), will now apply protection at the end of the dodge roll. If this is also applied to the pet at the end of the dodge roll, wont this prevent people from using this trait to apply protection to their pet on reaction to an imminent attack in, say PvE? As of course there would be a delay as the dodge roll was being completed, this would no longer be possible.

When making a point, it is preferable to edit out any generalizations. Experience of the game is very subjective. The way you see a particular mechanic isn’t necessarily the way it is, or even the way most others see it. Your view is still valid, but it carries much more weight when presented as the personal experience it is, rather than bluffed in as a generalization.

Also remember that the development teams have people working full time just collecting and analyzing hard data about every category of thing that happens in the game. They know the overall scope of things much better than you can guess, but what they don’t know are the details of your specific, personal experience relating to how they carry out their ideas.

Mr. Sharp,

One really underused guardian skill that comes to mind is bow of truth. No one really uses it, its very ineffective and clunky. The heal is weak and doesn’t scale with healing power. The condition removal is not under your control. There is no reason to ever take the weapon what so ever.

What if bow of truth was reworked into something different? Maybe a spirit weapon that provides cc and other unique effects.

Maybe it can do damage and chill and blind the target for each hit. Its command skill could be a damaging aoe, aoe chill and gives targets the reveal debuff. Making it a anti stealth tool.

I also feel that its still a bit too punishing to be a spirit weapon user. The durations are very short, compared to the other summon classes. And without the trait they die on command. Could their durations be increased to actually last a while? In pve the duration should be indefinite.

They die easily and have a long cooldown, so there already exists a window to punish the summoner.

Ele needs something like a sword, or a “staff” he really is fighting with….

Part 1

Now, I run 6 different level 80’s. My first was Thief, and my main is Thief. Some people have seen to argue with my initial points about the recent patches killing build diversity and I’ve sat down and discussed this with a few individuals I know who do not primarily play a thief but HAVE played a thief, and I think this is where there’s a large break in the discussion of this thread.

First, I’d like to talk about why I have 6 level 80’s. As a person who wanted to “main” a thief I found that I wasn’t very effective at level 80, I don’t have enough range to stay at a “safe distance” for most group fights, I don’t bring much to a dungeon group outside of damage, and an “oh kitten button” when someone gets downed. On the PVE side of things, generally we’re a one of class in a group because if there isn’t already 2 warriors, it’s better to have a warrior than a thief (for DPS maxing etc…).

That said, we bring a lot of utility to the part through our stealth skills, allowing people to skip sections or better position to deal with sections of dungeons/fractals/what have you.

Learning the other classes showed me what I could bring to a party to act as a stopgap for what we were missing in our team comp, while I’m not trying to say that thieves aren’t a “good class” we severely lack build diversity in PvE environments right now (honestly I think most classes do at the moment). But Sword Dagger is one of my favorite weapon sets for certain fractals and many dungeons as the boon stripping allows me to contribute something to my party that only one other class can do “almost” as effectively. (mesmers)

That said, I’m going to move on to the PvP side of things, where all the other classes can start rolling their eyes at me.

I played my other 5 classes (warrior, guardian, elementalist, necro, and engineer) to get a feel for how they worked in a WvW/PvP scenario, to get an idea of what it’s like to play one to best learn the mechanics of shutting one down. I found that I was getting STOMPED in PvP and WvW on a regular basis and until I learned how to best position to deal with the meta builds I could not reach an effective level of gameplay. This took WORK on my part, in addition it took a significant amount of practice to learn how to chain cloak and daggers when I was put in an out of position fight, when I’m on my thief chaining cloak and daggers, getting in and out with evasive backstabs, that is my survival utility.

When I’m on my warrior, I can jump in with my sword, block incoming attacks, hundred blades, and keep on going, I run a regen build that several classes have a hard time even denting… I can survive in a 3v1 fight for an extended period of time by timing my dodges and blocks.

What I’d like you all to recognize is that as a thief, those blocks that I have on my warrior, are stealths and blinds for a thief. Not only that, but you CAN still hit us when we are stealthed, and it doesn’t take much thinking to know where a thief is when they are in stealth (they’re trying to get behind you).

Our style of “abusing the stealth mechanic” comes from a lack of viability of other builds, we will NEVER be as good at conditions as a ranger, engineer, mesmer, or necromancer. There’s literally 0 reason to run conditions on a thief because literally half the classes do it better…. That removes an entire “mechanic” of our class (venoms) they’re just “not that great”.

Part 2

That effectively rules out P/P builds (this weapon sets primary attack has a focus on stacking bleed). So then we look at other weapon sets, short bow is a great weapon with amazing base damage and trick shot is really neat when you’re in a 2v1, but the range is 900 and most other classes with ranged attacks not only have better range on their attacks, but better damage as well, so short bow is out as a primary mode of damage dealing.

This leaves us with sword and dagger main hand, both of which are run! Dagger becomes a condition build if not used with stealth, which means we need to focus on what our other offhands offer, running a dagger means we’re playing with cloak and dagger shenanigans, stealthing, backstabbing etc… with a pistol offhand we’re focusing on permastealth and blind shenanigans (heartseeker at you through a blind field we force you to fight in, then get behind you and backstab you).

I’m not saying either of those play styles are bad in any way, they’re really effective if you can get past the skill gap to use them! But there is a skill gap to use them and other classes do find them “unfair”… I think a lot of this sentiment comes from the fact that it’s what MOST thieves run, but what I want you to take from this is that we run that because we lack viability in other builds.

Now lets get back to the sword mainhand, what does this bring to the fight that we wouldn’t want to just go permastealth, avoiding getting hit and delivering (someone in this topic earlier said 15k backstabs, for what it’s worth the most I’ve ever backstabbed for was 13k and that was against the aetherblade loot bag runners in a PURE glass 100% damage focused build with sigil of night, sigil of justice, crit damage food, and a potion of outlaw slaying) so for arguments sake lets say a more realistic 8-9k crits? (which are still exciting for me, they don’t happen often and are usually only against really glassy builds in WvW). This weapon set offers positioning, and either an evasive attack/daze that’s hard to land and kills our creed of “always be moving, never get hit” (pistol whip) with blinds, or boon stripping and stealth (offhand dagger) which also gets us another daze attack (from stealth, when we’re behind you, why we need to be so mobile).

These skills are great as well, the sword 2 allows us to pull out of fights when we’re knocked down, or generally out of commission (if we just sat there we would die very quickly, we’re in medium armor… please realize this, engineers don’t do melee combat, rangers generally stick to ranged weapons, and those that don’t are often complaining as well, I want you to keep this in mind, that said I can’t speak about rangers because I don’t play one, so consider anything I say about them anecdotal!).

Permablind is awesome, but doesn’t contribute much if we can’t keep our opponents in it, so lets get back to the stealth and boon stripping, the most frequently run sPvP build. Where is boon stripping good? Well, against bunker builds that load up boons!

In a fight of a very good thief versus a very good guardian, the guardian will win EVERY time. We can’t ignore their aegis and their blind throws off our stealth, and I’m ok with that, I’m ok with having a class that just “wins” against us, because we get a pass against mesmers. But being able to boon strip and then pull out is our “contribution” to our team against these bunker builds. I find that guardians are the most sympathetic (of people who have never played a thief) to thieves when it comes to us saying "our class really lacks build diversity in WvW/PvP because they know they usually get to take our lunch money (rangers of course being the least sympathetic because they also get hit with the nerf stick just as regularly, mesmers the most biased because they are our top target). So, there you have it, that’s why “EVERY THIEF ABUSES STEALTH AND STRIPS ALL OUR BOONS ARE ITS SO UNFAIR.” we do it because it’s what’s left of our class, and when you take away our ability to strip boons, we’ll resort to running d/d or d/p backstab builds, because that’s what will be left.

Part 3 – Closing/TLDR

To anyone who wants to complain about thieves abusing stealth/being OP, I have one request, if you have an open character slot, make a thief. Take it into sPvP, look up a meta build. I would recommend Jumper’s http://intothemists.com/guides/250-sd_the_flanking_acrobat S/D thief, or http://intothemists.com/guides/5-cruuks_decapitation_build Cruups D/P & S/P build. Try running it for an hour, come back and tell me how easy it is to abuse our stealth mechanics. Thieves fight so hard/lash out so much against nerfs because we play our class and we know the skill cap for doing what we do.

People who play thieves do it because they’re dedicated to the class, not because it’s OP. I would have a much easier time dominating in PvP on my bunker guard or running around with my Bitcloud styled Elementalist in WvW, I choose to play thief because sliding in and out of combat is my desired play style and I know that with the practice I’ve put into it I can “make it work.”, I’m dedicated to the class and I really want to see it be a force of its own without “abusing gimmicks”… But that practice came through me learning 5 other classes, that’s what it took for me to be effective in PvP.

I’m not asking you to not suggest changes to stealth, I’m not asking you to speak out against our nerfs for us, I’m not asking you to suggest buffs for us. I’m asking for you to not call for nerfs of a class that you don’t know or understand the mechanics of until you make an effort to learn those mechanics yourself, I would never call for nerfs to a ranger or a mesmer, because I don’t know the classes in and out.

All that said, if we’re getting on the topic of “other weapons for thieves” I’d like a quarterstaff please, heavy melee range CC/knockdown/evasive spec -.o/

liefbread.9513:

All that said, if we’re getting on the topic of “other weapons for thieves” I’d like a quarterstaff please, heavy melee range CC/knockdown/evasive spec -.o/

So you want to be a monk? Wouldn’t that fit the ranger better?

Conncept.7638:

Black Teagan.9215:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Fade.7658:

This thread has essentially become a forum for suggestions on how to nerf thieves into the ground.

i didn’t read the whole thing and haven’t seen a single post about thieves but all stealth related skills must be toned tone. A game trying to become esports has no counter for the stealth mechanic is laughable.

Stealth have enough counter, but this isnt the reason for my reply.

The thiefbalance (his low hp and no exist deff), was build around the fact that stealth has direct counter. That mean if all class a stealthcounter skill and the thief dont a buff in health, heal or dmg, to equalizes this, will this result in a nerf.

A counter is not a counter when it is solely in the hands of the person who needs to be countered. In it’s current state, being entirely in the hands of the thief, revealed is a control mechanism, not a counter. When it is available to others, then it’s a counter.

And if you say or even think ‘AoE Spam’, your opinion is void. AoE spam works in most other games because they have resource control and much more limited movement. Resource control allows the developers to make low CD AoEs and rely on ‘mana’ to balance their use. More limited movement sets a a clear range where the stealthed player could be. Excepting thieves, GW2 has no resource control and almost no spammable AoEs, and the distance a thief is able to cover is not only huge compared to most games, is by far the most of any class in the game itself.

Furthermore, in case you haven’t noticed, the same pool of stats are available to everyone in the game, thieves can build any stat just as well as any other class The difference is, because of zero counterplay defensive mechanics, they don’t even need certain stats. You don’t ‘balance’ something by sacrificing something that wasn’t needed in the first place.

perfectly well explained and ppl that play thief and defend it to death so their little stealth never gets a counter should think for a sec.

Conncept.7638:

liefbread.9513:

All that said, if we’re getting on the topic of “other weapons for thieves” I’d like a quarterstaff please, heavy melee range CC/knockdown/evasive spec -.o/

So you want to be a monk? Wouldn’t that ranger fit that better?

Would a monk be more equivalent to a ranger or a thief?..

I’ll let you decide.

That said, monks generally are healing focused in the history of the Guild Wars franchise, but I’m thinking more like an aggressive acrobatic fighting style.

Nuka Cola.8520:

Conncept.7638:

Black Teagan.9215:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Fade.7658:

This thread has essentially become a forum for suggestions on how to nerf thieves into the ground.

i didn’t read the whole thing and haven’t seen a single post about thieves but all stealth related skills must be toned tone. A game trying to become esports has no counter for the stealth mechanic is laughable.

Stealth have enough counter, but this isnt the reason for my reply.

The thiefbalance (his low hp and no exist deff), was build around the fact that stealth has direct counter. That mean if all class a stealthcounter skill and the thief dont a buff in health, heal or dmg, to equalizes this, will this result in a nerf.

A counter is not a counter when it is solely in the hands of the person who needs to be countered. In it’s current state, being entirely in the hands of the thief, revealed is a control mechanism, not a counter. When it is available to others, then it’s a counter.

And if you say or even think ‘AoE Spam’, your opinion is void. AoE spam works in most other games because they have resource control and much more limited movement. Resource control allows the developers to make low CD AoEs and rely on ‘mana’ to balance their use. More limited movement sets a a clear range where the stealthed player could be. Excepting thieves, GW2 has no resource control and almost no spammable AoEs, and the distance a thief is able to cover is not only huge compared to most games, is by far the most of any class in the game itself.

Furthermore, in case you haven’t noticed, the same pool of stats are available to everyone in the game, thieves can build any stat just as well as any other class The difference is, because of zero counterplay defensive mechanics, they don’t even need certain stats. You don’t ‘balance’ something by sacrificing something that wasn’t needed in the first place.

perfectly well explained and ppl that play thief and defend it to death so their little stealth never gets a counter should think for a sec.

People that refer to it as “their little stealth” should play the class and understand how its mechanics work. You should try actually playing the class you’re suggesting deserves hard counters and nerfs. The individuals who defend thief to the death are the ones who have played the class, there are SEVERAL people ITT who have stepped up to defend thief who don’t main it, but recognize how the mechanics of the class work.

Conncept.7638:

liefbread.9513:

All that said, if we’re getting on the topic of “other weapons for thieves” I’d like a quarterstaff please, heavy melee range CC/knockdown/evasive spec -.o/

So you want to be a monk? Wouldn’t that fit the ranger better?

Also I should say, I think more of a druidic/philidic theme would work better for a ranger w/ a staff personally.

liefbread.9513:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Conncept.7638:

Black Teagan.9215:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Fade.7658:

This thread has essentially become a forum for suggestions on how to nerf thieves into the ground.

i didn’t read the whole thing and haven’t seen a single post about thieves but all stealth related skills must be toned tone. A game trying to become esports has no counter for the stealth mechanic is laughable.

Stealth have enough counter, but this isnt the reason for my reply.

The thiefbalance (his low hp and no exist deff), was build around the fact that stealth has direct counter. That mean if all class a stealthcounter skill and the thief dont a buff in health, heal or dmg, to equalizes this, will this result in a nerf.

A counter is not a counter when it is solely in the hands of the person who needs to be countered. In it’s current state, being entirely in the hands of the thief, revealed is a control mechanism, not a counter. When it is available to others, then it’s a counter.

And if you say or even think ‘AoE Spam’, your opinion is void. AoE spam works in most other games because they have resource control and much more limited movement. Resource control allows the developers to make low CD AoEs and rely on ‘mana’ to balance their use. More limited movement sets a a clear range where the stealthed player could be. Excepting thieves, GW2 has no resource control and almost no spammable AoEs, and the distance a thief is able to cover is not only huge compared to most games, is by far the most of any class in the game itself.

Furthermore, in case you haven’t noticed, the same pool of stats are available to everyone in the game, thieves can build any stat just as well as any other class The difference is, because of zero counterplay defensive mechanics, they don’t even need certain stats. You don’t ‘balance’ something by sacrificing something that wasn’t needed in the first place.

perfectly well explained and ppl that play thief and defend it to death so their little stealth never gets a counter should think for a sec.

People that refer to it as “their little stealth” should play the class and understand how its mechanics work. You should try actually playing the class you’re suggesting deserves hard counters and nerfs. The individuals who defend thief to the death are the ones who have played the class, there are SEVERAL people ITT who have stepped up to defend thief who don’t main it, but recognize how the mechanics of the class work.

i play mesmer, thief is all i find during solo roams, i know how it works thank you…

Nuka Cola.8520:

Conncept.7638:

Black Teagan.9215:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Fade.7658:

This thread has essentially become a forum for suggestions on how to nerf thieves into the ground.

i didn’t read the whole thing and haven’t seen a single post about thieves but all stealth related skills must be toned tone. A game trying to become esports has no counter for the stealth mechanic is laughable.

Stealth have enough counter, but this isnt the reason for my reply.

The thiefbalance (his low hp and no exist deff), was build around the fact that stealth has direct counter. That mean if all class a stealthcounter skill and the thief dont a buff in health, heal or dmg, to equalizes this, will this result in a nerf.

A counter is not a counter when it is solely in the hands of the person who needs to be countered. In it’s current state, being entirely in the hands of the thief, revealed is a control mechanism, not a counter. When it is available to others, then it’s a counter.

And if you say or even think ‘AoE Spam’, your opinion is void. AoE spam works in most other games because they have resource control and much more limited movement. Resource control allows the developers to make low CD AoEs and rely on ‘mana’ to balance their use. More limited movement sets a a clear range where the stealthed player could be. Excepting thieves, GW2 has no resource control and almost no spammable AoEs, and the distance a thief is able to cover is not only huge compared to most games, is by far the most of any class in the game itself.

Furthermore, in case you haven’t noticed, the same pool of stats are available to everyone in the game, thieves can build any stat just as well as any other class The difference is, because of zero counterplay defensive mechanics, they don’t even need certain stats. You don’t ‘balance’ something by sacrificing something that wasn’t needed in the first place.

perfectly well explained and ppl that play thief and defend it to death so their little stealth never gets a counter should think for a sec.

Nope, what liefbread wrote is “perfectly explained”.

And pls dont write anything about the thief or his mechanics, if you have no clue.

“i play mesmer, thief is all i find during solo roams, i know how it works thank you…”

Fighting against a class is not the same, like to play the class

Nuka Cola.8520:

liefbread.9513:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Conncept.7638:

Black Teagan.9215:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Fade.7658:

This thread has essentially become a forum for suggestions on how to nerf thieves into the ground.

i didn’t read the whole thing and haven’t seen a single post about thieves but all stealth related skills must be toned tone. A game trying to become esports has no counter for the stealth mechanic is laughable.

Stealth have enough counter, but this isnt the reason for my reply.

The thiefbalance (his low hp and no exist deff), was build around the fact that stealth has direct counter. That mean if all class a stealthcounter skill and the thief dont a buff in health, heal or dmg, to equalizes this, will this result in a nerf.

A counter is not a counter when it is solely in the hands of the person who needs to be countered. In it’s current state, being entirely in the hands of the thief, revealed is a control mechanism, not a counter. When it is available to others, then it’s a counter.

And if you say or even think ‘AoE Spam’, your opinion is void. AoE spam works in most other games because they have resource control and much more limited movement. Resource control allows the developers to make low CD AoEs and rely on ‘mana’ to balance their use. More limited movement sets a a clear range where the stealthed player could be. Excepting thieves, GW2 has no resource control and almost no spammable AoEs, and the distance a thief is able to cover is not only huge compared to most games, is by far the most of any class in the game itself.

Furthermore, in case you haven’t noticed, the same pool of stats are available to everyone in the game, thieves can build any stat just as well as any other class The difference is, because of zero counterplay defensive mechanics, they don’t even need certain stats. You don’t ‘balance’ something by sacrificing something that wasn’t needed in the first place.

perfectly well explained and ppl that play thief and defend it to death so their little stealth never gets a counter should think for a sec.

People that refer to it as “their little stealth” should play the class and understand how its mechanics work. You should try actually playing the class you’re suggesting deserves hard counters and nerfs. The individuals who defend thief to the death are the ones who have played the class, there are SEVERAL people ITT who have stepped up to defend thief who don’t main it, but recognize how the mechanics of the class work.

i play mesmer, thief is all i find during solo roams, i know how it works thank you…

Mesmer is to thief as thief is to guardian, you don’t know how it works at all because you are our squish class, you are the class we target in team fights and zergs, you are our “free pass” as far as bias goes, you are THE bias.

@liefbread
golf clap

Pretty much nails it spot on.

I really hope that those new weapons come soon, if they do at all.

Black Teagan.9215:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Conncept.7638:

Black Teagan.9215:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Fade.7658:

This thread has essentially become a forum for suggestions on how to nerf thieves into the ground.

i didn’t read the whole thing and haven’t seen a single post about thieves but all stealth related skills must be toned tone. A game trying to become esports has no counter for the stealth mechanic is laughable.

Stealth have enough counter, but this isnt the reason for my reply.

The thiefbalance (his low hp and no exist deff), was build around the fact that stealth has direct counter. That mean if all class a stealthcounter skill and the thief dont a buff in health, heal or dmg, to equalizes this, will this result in a nerf.

A counter is not a counter when it is solely in the hands of the person who needs to be countered. In it’s current state, being entirely in the hands of the thief, revealed is a control mechanism, not a counter. When it is available to others, then it’s a counter.

And if you say or even think ‘AoE Spam’, your opinion is void. AoE spam works in most other games because they have resource control and much more limited movement. Resource control allows the developers to make low CD AoEs and rely on ‘mana’ to balance their use. More limited movement sets a a clear range where the stealthed player could be. Excepting thieves, GW2 has no resource control and almost no spammable AoEs, and the distance a thief is able to cover is not only huge compared to most games, is by far the most of any class in the game itself.

Furthermore, in case you haven’t noticed, the same pool of stats are available to everyone in the game, thieves can build any stat just as well as any other class The difference is, because of zero counterplay defensive mechanics, they don’t even need certain stats. You don’t ‘balance’ something by sacrificing something that wasn’t needed in the first place.

perfectly well explained and ppl that play thief and defend it to death so their little stealth never gets a counter should think for a sec.

Nope, what liefbread wrote is “perfectly explained”.

And pls dont write anything about the thief or his mechanics, if you have no clue.

“i play mesmer, thief is all i find during solo roams, i know how it works thank you…”

Fighting against a class is not the same, like to play the class

I have played a thief, it garners no challenge and frankly, requires little if any brainpower. It is the easiest to class to play in the game, with the least amount of risk for the greatest amount of reward.

Now if you are capable of addressing anything I wrote, or defending anything you wrote, with a stronger argument than ‘pls dont write anything’, I would love to hear it. Because, the answer to your completely unjustified request, is no. And if you are incapable of defending your stance, then either your stance is wrong, or you are not familiar enough with the subject to be addressing it in the first place.

I wish people saying that “thief is a skilless class” would play something other then world versus world to base their opinions on.

You know, the place where the main objective is to follow around some player with a big blue icon over his head in extremely large groups to capture points.

Where player skill is essentially at it’s lowest.

People who say that thief is the easiest class to play in the game have either not have played the class, or have played against players that don’t know what they’re doing. Players with a very low skill level.

And that “least amount of risk for the greatest amount of reward” is complete trite. One mistake as a thief, a missed cloak and dagger, an ill-timed dodge, can mean the end of your run as a thief player. Other professions have so many stuns, knockdowns, and other general crowd control skills that sometimes it won’t be possible to restealth and position yourself to get back in the fight. A thief has to know what he is doing to be able to win against someone in a fight. It isn’t as simple as “Cloak and dagger, backstab, heartseekerheartseekerheartseeker” like people who knock on thieves make it out to be. And those that do get killed by those kind of plays are not only bad players, but they’re getting killed by bad thieves as well.

Nice changes. If you would consider changing the Necromancer healing skill “Well of Blood” back to the water field I recall it being in beta, you’d bring a pretty significant boost to the support capabilities of the necromancer class, while also removing another of the many light fields from the game.
The problem with it being a light field, instead of a water field, is that it makes the Well of Blood actually prevent optimal healing, instead of furthering it. If I were to place a well of blood at, say, a gate in a wvw encounter – I’d be cancelling any healing fields already placed there for healing blast effects.

raahk.2786:

And that “least amount of risk for the greatest amount of reward” is complete trite. One mistake as a thief, a missed cloak and dagger, an ill-timed dodge, can mean…

…that you have to break the brainless DPS combo any four year old could do in order to drop in to stealth, and run away like pig-tailed little girl? Exactly, no risk.

Conncept.7638:

Black Teagan.9215:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Conncept.7638:

Black Teagan.9215:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Fade.7658:

This thread has essentially become a forum for suggestions on how to nerf thieves into the ground.

i didn’t read the whole thing and haven’t seen a single post about thieves but all stealth related skills must be toned tone. A game trying to become esports has no counter for the stealth mechanic is laughable.

Stealth have enough counter, but this isnt the reason for my reply.

The thiefbalance (his low hp and no exist deff), was build around the fact that stealth has direct counter. That mean if all class a stealthcounter skill and the thief dont a buff in health, heal or dmg, to equalizes this, will this result in a nerf.

A counter is not a counter when it is solely in the hands of the person who needs to be countered. In it’s current state, being entirely in the hands of the thief, revealed is a control mechanism, not a counter. When it is available to others, then it’s a counter.

And if you say or even think ‘AoE Spam’, your opinion is void. AoE spam works in most other games because they have resource control and much more limited movement. Resource control allows the developers to make low CD AoEs and rely on ‘mana’ to balance their use. More limited movement sets a a clear range where the stealthed player could be. Excepting thieves, GW2 has no resource control and almost no spammable AoEs, and the distance a thief is able to cover is not only huge compared to most games, is by far the most of any class in the game itself.

Furthermore, in case you haven’t noticed, the same pool of stats are available to everyone in the game, thieves can build any stat just as well as any other class The difference is, because of zero counterplay defensive mechanics, they don’t even need certain stats. You don’t ‘balance’ something by sacrificing something that wasn’t needed in the first place.

perfectly well explained and ppl that play thief and defend it to death so their little stealth never gets a counter should think for a sec.

Nope, what liefbread wrote is “perfectly explained”.

And pls dont write anything about the thief or his mechanics, if you have no clue.

“i play mesmer, thief is all i find during solo roams, i know how it works thank you…”

Fighting against a class is not the same, like to play the class

I have played a thief, it garners no challenge and frankly, requires little if any brainpower. It is the easiest to class to play in the game, with the least amount of risk for the greatest amount of reward.

Now if you are capable of addressing anything I wrote, or defending anything you wrote, with a stronger argument than ‘pls dont write anything’, I would love to hear it. Because, the answer to your completely unjustified request, is no. And if you are completely incapable of defending your stance, then either your stance is wrong, or you shouldn’t have shared it in the first place.

Actually, thief is one of the only classes where you are better off not spamming all of your weapon skills at once. In order to win a 1v1, most stealth builds absolutely require getting an initial jump upon the opponent. It’s also a very fragile class and you can wind up dead instantly in any group fight if you aren’t careful. The thief is still good at 1v1ing against some classes, but I don’t know what is going on in your head for you to say that thief is the least risky class to play. Maybe only in roaming WvW. And roaming doesn’t really have much point. Thief is very risky in tPvP.

Many top players say that thief is one of the hardest classes to play effectively as, especially in tPvP where disengaging doesn’t really get you anything other than a decapped point.

I’m going to take a gamble and guess that by your idiotic response you have only played thief in hotjoin pvp or in WvW. I’m also going to guess that you aren’t even involved enough with actual PvP to see just how easy it is to pick up many other classes like warrior or necromancer compared to thief.

Don’t even try to deny that a thief is the easiest class to play… even skull crack/100swags warrior is harder and that is telling a lot. im also rank 32 in spvp so i’ve played enough of this crappy pvp as well. I also noticed something, ppl that play only thief will rarely agree that the class is broken but another player that is skilled and plays a thief (as his main) but also plays other classes and is good with them will most certainly agree that thief is unbalanced in its current state. If it was me i’d remove all stealth and stealth related traits from that game and rework thief completely (of course this will never happen). the game is supposed to be skill vs skill and not skill vs nothing cuz the thief just refuged and heartseeker across the map.

I post this from pve perspective, i mostly run dungeons and fractals, very casual spvp or wvw, warriors are doing way too much dps in pve compared to other classes, saw some math on gw2guru forums and they’re about 20% ahead in dps compared to other classes thus everyone playing the warrior class and others aren’t as popular.
I know that warriors are usually very popular in any rpg but if u do pve in this game u want 4 warriors and maybe a guardian, everything else is just supbar. In the end i understand is not possible to perfectly balance all the classes but at least try to keep them under 5% diff in dps between each other.

Conncept.7638:

raahk.2786:

And that “least amount of risk for the greatest amount of reward” is complete trite. One mistake as a thief, a missed cloak and dagger, an ill-timed dodge, can mean…

…that you have to break the brainless DPS combo any four year old could do, drop in to stealth, and run away like pig-tailed little girl?

May I ask what class you play in WvW? Also, we do’t run away

like a pig-tailed little girl?

, we run away like a thief, because that’s how our class was designed to play. Should we sit there and get hit until you get a free kill? Our “brainless DPS combo” requires positioning and significant amounts of timing (I’m also curious as to exactly what combo you’re referring to).

Conncept.7638:

raahk.2786:

And that “least amount of risk for the greatest amount of reward” is complete trite. One mistake as a thief, a missed cloak and dagger, an ill-timed dodge, can mean…

…that you have to break the brainless DPS combo any four year old could do in order to drop in to stealth, and run away like pig-tailed little girl? Exactly, no risk.

What “brainless DPS combo” is there, exactly? Cloak and dagger, backstab, autoattack? Is that even a combo?
And did you even read what I said? Miss cloak and dagger. No stealth. Oh look, cc. Oh look, dead.
Especially if you’re forced into fighting a group.

And it’s funny how you mention “brainless DPS combos” when other professions, such as the warrior, the mesmer, and the necromancer all have actual combos that are not only easier to pull off, but also have less risk involved, since thieves actually have to be in melee range to even do damage to their target. Warriors do, too, but considering how they heal about 2k health every five second and their larger armor class, it wouldn’t be a fair comparison to what a thief has to do to stay in melee range.

Nuka Cola.8520:

Don’t even try to deny that a thief is the easiest class to play… even skull crack/100swags warrior is harder and that is telling a lot. im also rank 32 in spvp so i’ve played enough of this crappy pvp as well. I also noticed something, ppl that play only thief will rarely agree that the class is broken but another player that is skilled and plays a thief (as his main) but also plays other classes and is good with them will most certainly agree that thief is unbalanced in its current state. If it was me i’d remove all stealth and stealth related traits from that game and rework thief completely (of course this will never happen). the game is supposed to be skill vs skill and not skill vs nothing cuz the thief just refuged and heartseeker across the map.

I too believe that thief needs a re-work, I don’t know if removing stealth is the way to go about it. But your complaints are about our class design, not thieves in general, you’re not asking for nerfs, you’re asking for fundamental changes to our class (which 9/10 thieves would agree with) if you’re telling me that http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agpikmObUxs that requires no skill, even to get that amount of positioning, in and out of combat and to take advantage of the classes mobility (those are the skills that we develop, and those ARE skills, because its how our class was designed to play). Then I can’t say much beyond “you are off your rocker.”

Verdelet Arconia.6987:

Hi John, please give Ranger melee pets a longer range for melee attacks because they will be rooted during the attack and its easy for enemy players to move out of their melee range.

Additionally, Lupicus and Liandri has made it very clear that they can one shot kill our pets and shutdown Ranger’s class mechanic for 45secs/60 secs. Something need to be done about this, either give the ranger a small buff when the pet dies (enrage or something) or reduce the time when the next pet can be up.

Thanks

I love your suggestions, particularly the last one. I need I need I need!

“Successfully killing the target(s) isn’t as easy” are ppl for real with this? Stealth+burst+CnD stomp and move to another target…. what you say? you failed to burst? well that’s cool cuz i can CnD, couple of hearseekers from target to gain space+refuge and get out to then re-burst again. So hard.

infantrydiv.1620:

Actually, thief is one of the only classes where you are better off not spamming all of your weapon skills at once. In order to win a 1v1, most stealth builds absolutely require getting an initial jump upon the opponent. It’s also a very fragile class and you can wind up dead instantly in any group fight if you aren’t careful. The thief is still good at 1v1ing against some classes, but I don’t know what is going on in your head for you to say that thief is the least risky class to play. Maybe only in roaming WvW. And roaming doesn’t really have much point. Thief is very risky in tPvP.

Many top players say that thief is one of the hardest classes to play effectively as, especially in tPvP where disengaging doesn’t really get you anything other than a decapped point.

I’m going to take a gamble and guess that by your idiotic response you have only played thief in hotjoin pvp or in WvW. I’m also going to guess that you aren’t even involved enough with actual PvP to see just how easy it is to pick up many other classes like warrior or necromancer compared to thief.

You’ve never even played a single class besides the thief have you? There isn’t any class where you are better off button-mashing. The very definition of ‘button-mashing’ or ‘face rolling’ or whatever else you want to call it is that it is an ineffective use of resources. That doesn’t change the fact that thief boils down to getting a jump on your opponent, and a series of buttons in sequence or combination, that anyone with fifteen spare minutes and a guide can figure out. And these two simple thing bring the class’ greatest output to bear, with no risk if you don’t screw up, and minimal risk if you do. And neither of these requirements take any skill whatsoever so long as there is not counterplay to stealth.

The simple fact. Positioning, timing, execution, everything it takes to set up a perfect thief gank, requires no skill so long as you can do it all from a status which protects you from all counterplay. And requires no risk, so long as you can return to that state so frequently after a mistake.

I doubt any top players have ever said that, and if they had I wouldn’t care. The game is a job for them, their opinion is based on an entirely different system of rules than the game the rest of us play. You want that to apply? Become a professional gamer, talk with a professional gamer. You are not, neither am I.

And you can assume whatever you want about me or whatever else you like, your bad habit, and not my problem.

Point is, discuss thieves elsewhere unless its a direct IDEA that would benefit ALL.. IE give a detailed idea of how it would benefit all. quit saying “stealth doesnt have a direct counter” thats the whole point of it BEING stealth, you DO NOT KNOW. it is not supposed to have a counter/direct counter, if it did it would not be stealth. now. get back to the topic and go RANT elsewhere kitten , the dev already asked nicely

Nuka Cola.8520:

“Successfully killing the target(s) isn’t as easy” are ppl for real with this? Stealth+burst+CnD stomp and move to another target…. what you say? you failed to burst? well that’s cool cuz i can CnD, couple of hearseekers from target to gain space+refuge and get out to then re-burst again. So hard.

I’m telling you, try it. Roll a thief, go to spvp and try it. If you manage to stealth+burst+CnD stomp even every second target, I’ll eat my hat.

liefbread.9513:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Don’t even try to deny that a thief is the easiest class to play… even skull crack/100swags warrior is harder and that is telling a lot. im also rank 32 in spvp so i’ve played enough of this crappy pvp as well. I also noticed something, ppl that play only thief will rarely agree that the class is broken but another player that is skilled and plays a thief (as his main) but also plays other classes and is good with them will most certainly agree that thief is unbalanced in its current state. If it was me i’d remove all stealth and stealth related traits from that game and rework thief completely (of course this will never happen). the game is supposed to be skill vs skill and not skill vs nothing cuz the thief just refuged and heartseeker across the map.

I too believe that thief needs a re-work, I don’t know if removing stealth is the way to go about it. But your complaints are about our class design, not thieves in general, you’re not asking for nerfs, you’re asking for fundamental changes to our class (which 9/10 thieves would agree with) if you’re telling me that http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agpikmObUxs that requires no skill, even to get that amount of positioning, in and out of combat and to take advantage of the classes mobility (those are the skills that we develop, and those ARE skills, because its how our class was designed to play). Then I can’t say much beyond “you are off your rocker.”

I’m guessing these people are “off their rockers” then, since they’ll all just continue to downplay the entirety of the thief class by saying it’s just “stealth and button mashing”.
I guess that makes mesmer “Clones and button mashing”
Or ranger “spirits and button mashing”
Or necromancer “wells and button mashing”
Or warrior “signets and button mashing”
Oh wait, that last one is true, sorry.

Wraith.7529:

NoTrigger.8396:

did you know ele deals the most dps in pve?

No I never use my Ele in PVE well haven’t since leveling her up 10-11 months ago. So I can’t agree or disagree with you on that statement. I just think the class needs more balance between DPS & Support with in its viable builds. My play style is geared towards consistent pressure. I do not zerker or bunker but I find with the Ele class you tend to need to lean towards bunker due to low Hp.

Eles use a bug with Fiery Greatsword to do the most DPS. Not exactly what you would call stellar design or actual gameplay.